GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Mal's religious beliefs

POSTED BY: WAGNERAUDE
UPDATED: Monday, May 31, 2010 06:53
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Saturday, May 22, 2010 10:19 AM

WAGNERAUDE


Bear with me here for a second.

Now, we all know Mal is atheistic, or at least rejects god, but in the pilot, we see him holding a cross, which means that at some point before the war he was Christian. But, at the end of Trash, as Wash walks away with Zoe, and I cannot believe I just heard this, Wash says "Zoe, He's Jewish". Is this just a throwaway comment or an actual possibility as to Mal's religion?


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Saturday, May 22, 2010 10:26 AM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by Wagneraude:
Bear with me here for a second.

Now, we all know Mal is atheistic, or at least rejects god, but in the pilot, we see him holding a cross, which means that at some point before the war he was Christian. But, at the end of Trash, as Wash walks away with Zoe, and I cannot believe I just heard this, Wash says "Zoe, He's Jewish". Is this just a throwaway comment or an actual possibility as to Mal's religion?


He was naked, circumcised?

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Saturday, May 22, 2010 12:46 PM

PENGUIN


Quote:

Originally posted by Wagneraude:
Bear with me here for a second.

Now, we all know Mal is atheistic, or at least rejects god, but in the pilot, we see him holding a cross, which means that at some point before the war he was Christian. But, at the end of Trash, as Wash walks away with Zoe, and I cannot believe I just heard this, Wash says "Zoe, He's Jewish". Is this just a throwaway comment or an actual possibility as to Mal's religion?




I don't believe I just heard that! LOL

It's most certainly a throw off line that Alan threw in there... Joss wouldn't have written that!





King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Saturday, May 22, 2010 1:47 PM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


Mal's not athiestic. You can't hate something you don't believe in. Mal's *angry* at God, feels God abandoned him in his time of need (b/c apparently Mal was the type of Christian who thinks God fights human wars).
I tend to think of Mal's religious upbringing as being some form of good old-fashioned southern protestant - complete with a fire and brimstone town preacher. Now that Mal has decided he and God are through, who knows what former beliefs of his remain? We can comfortably say at least some, given his reaction to Book's hilarious "special hell" speech in OMR. But I think maybe you misheard Wash's line...I've watched that ep a bunch and never heard that

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Saturday, May 22, 2010 2:30 PM

BYTEMITE


Anyone read Still Flying yet?

Select to view spoiler:


Mal kept the rosary. Supposedly it represents hope for him, or at least the hope for hope, since he lost all of that.


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Saturday, May 22, 2010 2:31 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Wagneraude:
Bear with me here for a second.

....at the end of Trash, as Wash walks away with Zoe, and I cannot believe I just heard this, Wash says "Zoe, He's Jewish". Is this just a throwaway comment or an actual possibility as to Mal's religion?




If that's humor on your part, I'm missing it. Never heard any such line. Might be you're confusing the show w/ some gag reel moment ?

The only Jewish reference I recall in the entire 'verse came w/ Mr Universe and his wedding.

Not so much w/ Mal, who clearly kissed the cross he wore on a chain around his neck , in the pilot episode.

( great excuse to pop in the dvd though, just to see what the heck you were seein' )

*edit* - saw it, no comment by Wash, or anyone, w/ regards to Mal and being Jewish. Great ending, though.







Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Saturday, May 22, 2010 2:48 PM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


@Bytemite - ooohhh I haven't gotten my copy of Still Flying yet and the suspense is killing me! Stupid Amazon. But did Mal have a cross or a *what you said*? B/c if it was a *what you said* I may have to rehash my protestant theory...

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Saturday, May 22, 2010 5:38 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Wagneraude:



The only Jewish reference I recall in the entire 'verse came w/ Mr Universe and his wedding.

Not so much w/ Mal, who clearly kissed the cross he wore on a chain around his neck , in the pilot episode.




Amnon, in The Message, who somebody in the commentary refers to as " the only Jew in outer space."

As to kissing the cross, I've always thought of that as a Catholic thing.

And gotta remember, it's 500 years in the future, on planets far, far away. No telling how various demoninations might have evolved and combined. Maybe what's left is a mixture of beliefs and rituals.

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Saturday, May 22, 2010 7:51 PM

BYTEMITE


The Amnon comment was a joke, Mr. Universe is clearly also Jewish. It's very unlikely Judaism in 500 years would be completely gone.

But true on the mix of religions. In heart of gold, Nandi's funeral is some sort of Buddhist Christian mix.

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Sunday, May 23, 2010 4:32 AM

WAGNERAUDE


It seems very few people actually heard the line, I assure you, if you watch the end of Trash, as Wash walks away with zoe (around 43 minutes in) he says "Zoe, he's Jewish"

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Sunday, May 23, 2010 4:35 AM

PENGUIN


I heard it yesterday. It's very faint. You really have to turn up the sound.





King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Sunday, May 23, 2010 4:36 AM

NCBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Wagneraude:



The only Jewish reference I recall in the entire 'verse came w/ Mr Universe and his wedding.

Not so much w/ Mal, who clearly kissed the cross he wore on a chain around his neck , in the pilot episode.




Amnon, in The Message, who somebody in the commentary refers to as " the only Jew in outer space."

As to kissing the cross, I've always thought of that as a Catholic thing.

And gotta remember, it's 500 years in the future, on planets far, far away. No telling how various demoninations might have evolved and combined. Maybe what's left is a mixture of beliefs and rituals.



I was maybe thinking some sort of Episcopal/Anglican type of mishmash of Catholicism and Protestantism. Especially since there are still monastic orders (like the one Shepard Book belongs to).

And of course there would be many other local Christian sects around the 'Verse.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/








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Sunday, May 23, 2010 6:07 AM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Wagneraude:
It seems very few people actually heard the line, I assure you, if you watch the end of Trash, as Wash walks away with zoe (around 43 minutes in) he says "Zoe, he's Jewish"



Maybe he's a Jew for Jesus ;)

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Sunday, May 23, 2010 6:24 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Wagneraude:
It seems very few people actually heard the line, I assure you, if you watch the end of Trash, as Wash walks away with zoe (around 43 minutes in) he says "Zoe, he's Jewish"



Saw it, again, and sure enough, very faintly, he says something to that effect. Had to crank up the volume all the way, just to pick it up.

I stand corrected.

( if it's not in the script, and gets spoken on film, is it referred to as canon ? )






Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Sunday, May 23, 2010 6:49 AM

VIOLYNS


I always thought he asked, "Is he Jewish?" almost like "'zee Jewish?"

-----
~mia

Serenifly Costumes http://serenifly.tripod.com

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Sunday, May 23, 2010 8:13 AM

IMNOTHERE


Quote:

Originally posted by Wagneraude:
Bear with me here for a second.

Now, we all know Mal is atheistic, or at least rejects god, but in the pilot, we see him holding a cross, which means that at some point before the war he was Christian.



I thought it was pretty abundantly clear that he was a Christian who lost his faith somewhere in the aftermath of Serenity Valley.

Plus, the sort of "evidence" Wash may have noticed at the end of Trash is a very, very unreliable indicator of Jewishness (lots of other people have it done for cultural and/or medical reasons, sometimes routinely).


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Sunday, May 23, 2010 9:52 AM

BYTEMITE


AU: If it's filmed, I consider it canon. The scripts are supplemental, and canon only if they don't contradict what is filmed or what is possible within the framework of the setting.

For example, the River pillow scene cut from OMR is not canon, because Saffron would have seen Simon and River, and she would have tipped off the Feds. In Trash, this is remedied by suggesting at one point that Saffron hadn't ever seen them and it would be best if Simon and River stayed out of sight.

Besides, I suspect that Wash was joking as well. Or it could even be Alan, in character, making a joke at Nathan's expense, as I hear that Nathan took a lot of guff from the crew for his little sock monster scene. Either way, since it was in character, it's a joke made in canon, but not necessarily a joke that has any bearing on canon. Mal isn't jewish, he'd have a star of david if that were the case, not a cross.

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Sunday, May 23, 2010 10:21 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Mal isn't jewish, he'd have a star of david if that were the case, not a cross.



And imo, that's all it comes down to, that matters most. Hard to explain away that ( though not impossible ) Mal would be wearing and kissing a silver cross if he weren't Christian.

But I picked up something about the show I'd not known before, and that's worth somethin'.

:)






Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Sunday, May 23, 2010 11:06 AM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
AU: If it's filmed, I consider it canon. The scripts are supplemental, and canon only if they don't contradict what is filmed or what is possible within the framework of the setting.

For example, the River pillow scene cut from OMR is not canon, because Saffron would have seen Simon and River, and she would have tipped off the Feds. In Trash, this is remedied by suggesting at one point that Saffron hadn't ever seen them and it would be best if Simon and River stayed out of sight.

Besides, I suspect that Wash was joking as well. Or it could even be Alan, in character, making a joke at Nathan's expense, as I hear that Nathan took a lot of guff from the crew for his little sock monster scene. Either way, since it was in character, it's a joke made in canon, but not necessarily a joke that has any bearing on canon. Mal isn't jewish, he'd have a star of david if that were the case, not a cross.



Hmm, the pillowcase scene was only cut due to time constraints, and I think can still be considered canon. Also, Saffron already saw Simon and River when she first came onboard the ship in OMR - everybody was gathered in the cargo bay - I think in Trash Mal was banking on her hopefully not having noticed them and put two and two together, or alternatively thinking they had already left the ship - no point in taking chances there, so the cut scene isn't really contradicted anywhere. But I agree with you that Alan's line was most likely an "Alan" line, as opposed to a Wash line, and has no bearing on Mal's actual heritage or religious upbringing.

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Sunday, May 23, 2010 12:01 PM

BYTEMITE


Well, true on them being in the cargo bay, or at least Simon was, but they were also kind of in the background. You're a lot less likely to recognize someone and tip then off to the Feds if you aren't introduced to 'em.

So I still think a little bit of that scene cut was Joss and Co realizing that "Whoops! This might write us into a corner."

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Sunday, May 30, 2010 5:07 AM

CAZARIL


I think the kissing of the cross was meant to show us Mal's loss of faith... We see him as a "whole" person, which includes faith in God, then we see him "broken", where God is as unwanted as the Alliance. It helps to show that Mal once believed, but it's just one more thing he has lost...

I never got the impression that Mal was an atheist, for exactly the reason that you can't be mad at someone/something that doesn't exist.

On the other hand, I don't think Mal thought God was going to fight the Alliance, but I do think he might have been brought up believing "If God is on our side, who can be on theirs"... And the descent into hell, that Serenity Valley became AFTER the fighting stopped (while the peace was negotiated), probably had more to do with his loss of faith, then the loss of the battle itself... 'Cause how could a kind and benevolent God just abandon us. How could he not make man remember, and send someone to help us.. His apathy kills us as surely as the Alliance troops did, only more slowly. "Mercy, forgiveness, trust, those are things he left back there", and by the time the med ships arrived, Mal believed that God was not on his side "God... Who's colors he flying"

As for Amnon being the "Only Jew in space"... remember that the comment was made before Serenity. So Mr. Universe did not exist yet... And if I recall correctly, David Krumholtz didn't want his character to be Jewish (stereotype).. but got sort-of talked into it.

Caz

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Sunday, May 30, 2010 10:06 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


I'm leaning towards this, regarding Mal's beliefs:

"As to kissing the cross, I've always thought of that as a Catholic thing.

And gotta remember, it's 500 years in the future, on planets far, far away. No telling how various demoninations might have evolved and combined. Maybe what's left is a mixture of beliefs and rituals."
--------------------------------------------------
It is your classic "I'm mad at God" reaction by a storied character. Book represents God's presence and his love for humankind. Additionally, Book represents God's forgiveness of sins. Hell, Book is a walking talking bonafied miracle.

I always got the impression that he was catholic, or at least a born-again, because it is part of the faith to have a living relationship with God which includes getting angry or upset for perceived abandonment: Why has thou forsaken me, Oh Lord?

I know someone that intimated to me that she was angry with God because she felt he punished her unfairly (barren, no children) while others seemingly mistreat, abuse and abandon them. She is of the Christian faith (she's a Bible-thumper of the first order).

So yeah, he's angry with God in the pilot and throughout Firefly.

But his faith, as Book revealed to him in Serenity with his dying breath, was restored by the film's end. He hinted at River being the key. Remember, when the Operative asks him is he willing to die for his belief, Mal's response.

So no, he was not an atheist. He was just angry with God.


SGG

Tawabawho?

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Monday, May 31, 2010 6:53 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

But his faith, as Book revealed to him in Serenity with his dying breath, was restored by the film's end. He hinted at River being the key. Remember, when the Operative asks him is he willing to die for his belief, Mal's response.


I've always considered that an enormous stretch, in regards to regained belief, if not outright failed symbolism.

Believing in the people around you, or believing that you ought to do the right thing is FAR, FAR away from religious belief. Mal didn't regain diddly-squat; he already believes the Independents were correct for resisting the Alliance, and protecting River and sending the Miranda broadwave is more about resisting the Alliance than it is renewed faith in God.

It is, however, a possible step on the path of redemption, as allowing himself to belief in people and his cause again, enough to fight for them, is a sign of healing. I suspect eventually this renewed capacity would have led to Mal regaining his beliefs, but he wasn't there yet by the end of the movie.

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