GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

What you want to see from Joss next

POSTED BY: ZEEK
UPDATED: Tuesday, October 5, 2010 11:33
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Monday, October 4, 2010 6:00 AM

ZEEK


Say this in a Dollhouse post and thought it could make for a fun discussion.

Quote:

Originally posted by RahlMaclaren:
Hopefully, Joss's next show (He'll come back around to TV. He always does.) will have more care for the details and story quality (Dedicated viewers tend to pick up on that stuff).



So, what do you hope Joss will do with his next show?


My hope is that he pulls a "Lost" on people. Lost started out with a basic idea that viewers could wrap their heads around. A bunch of people in a plane crash who are stranded on a tropical island. Simple concept. Understandable. Easily marketable. Then they went ape shit crazy and threw in smoke monsters, time travel and polar bears.

Joss really needs to do better at hooking people early. Start the show with something the every man understands. Once you pull them in for the first 3 or 4 episodes you can start to pull the rug out from under them little by little. The strong Joss characters should be enough to keep them grounded.

I think he should start the new show with a big medical emergency. Have a city get quarantined a la Outbreak and begin to build the characters who are afraid of being infected, the support workers, the officials, etc. Then once people are hooked on the character drama you can reveal that the virus is a government conspiracy with aliens to turn all women into super soldiers.


What other ideas does everybody have for Joss's next show?

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Monday, October 4, 2010 10:34 AM

STORYMARK


Well, with him steppin' up to the big time with The Avengers, it'll be a couple years before he really even has the time to do much of anything else. And if that movie does well, he'll likely stick with movies for a time.

In which case, I'd be praying for Serenity 2. Barring that, a Buffy movie would be fine by me.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, October 4, 2010 11:17 AM

PENGUIN


A movie about a spaceship.





King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Monday, October 4, 2010 11:19 AM

SISTER


..yeah, a spaceship with people on it.

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Monday, October 4, 2010 12:30 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Mark Zuckerberg offered Joss $100 million for 22 TV episodes, direct to DVD, each a standard 45 minutes long, on whatever subject. That whatever really interested Joss, who responded with, "Now I know what I'll be doing after Avengers." Joss made a counteroffer, "I'll give you 44 episodes, and throw in two made-for-TV movies, for double the money." So the deal was made for two seasons of Whatever, the next Whedon TV/Internet project.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, October 4, 2010 12:44 PM

ZEEK


That's always made me wonder really. Joss had his whatever with both Serenity the pilot and Serenity the movie pretty much. I didn't think either were the best of the Firefly verse. How much of Fox's toning down actually improved Firefly? I know Fox's mucking around is frowned upon, but the characters all got a little meaner and more detached when Joss was given free reign. I sorta liked the way the crew was friendlier with each other and more of a family.

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Monday, October 4, 2010 12:55 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
Mark Zuckerberg offered Joss $100 million for 22 TV episodes, direct to DVD, each a standard 45 minutes long, on whatever subject. That whatever really interested Joss, who responded with, "Now I know what I'll be doing after Avengers." Joss made a counteroffer, "I'll give you 44 episodes, and throw in two made-for-TV movies, for double the money." So the deal was made for two seasons of Whatever, the next Whedon TV/Internet project.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two



That sounds awesome! I'm torn between wanting something entirely new or wanting him to continue firefly. Of course more firefly would be shiney but I worry about what will happen to all my favorite characters. He already killed Wash and Book.

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Monday, October 4, 2010 1:20 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
Mark Zuckerberg offered Joss $100 million for 22 TV episodes, direct to DVD, each a standard 45 minutes long, on whatever subject. That whatever really interested Joss, who responded with, "Now I know what I'll be doing after Avengers." Joss made a counteroffer, "I'll give you 44 episodes, and throw in two made-for-TV movies, for double the money." So the deal was made for two seasons of Whatever, the next Whedon TV/Internet project.



Can you cite this? I can't find anything that mentions it, and that seems like it'd kinda make the news somewhere.



"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, October 4, 2010 1:22 PM

MUTT999


Anything with the words 'Firefly' or 'Serenity' in the title would be most appreciated.




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Monday, October 4, 2010 1:23 PM

CYBERSNARK


What I want to see from Joss next. . . Is whatever he wants to do.

And I wish the same for every other artist. Whether I personally like it or not isn't the issue; I guarantee someone will, and that's all that's needed.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Monday, October 4, 2010 1:24 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by two:
Mark Zuckerberg offered Joss $100 million for 22 TV episodes, direct to DVD, each a standard 45 minutes long, on whatever subject. That whatever really interested Joss, who responded with, "Now I know what I'll be doing after Avengers." Joss made a counteroffer, "I'll give you 44 episodes, and throw in two made-for-TV movies, for double the money." So the deal was made for two seasons of Whatever, the next Whedon TV/Internet project.



Can you cite this? I can't find anything that mentions it, and that seems like it'd kinda make the news somewhere.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

The story about Joss' Whatever TV deal is just as silly as Mark Zuckerberg's guest appearance on The Simpsons last week. . . But we can dream, can't we?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Zuckerberg

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, October 4, 2010 1:29 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Hey, how 'bout that. Completely changes the dynamic when you know what the name is. I just assumed this guy was some producer type, and a little googling has made me feel rather embarrassed lol. (note to self, look up names you don't recognize before posting)

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Monday, October 4, 2010 3:01 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by two:
Mark Zuckerberg offered Joss $100 million for 22 TV episodes, direct to DVD, each a standard 45 minutes long, on whatever subject. That whatever really interested Joss, who responded with, "Now I know what I'll be doing after Avengers." Joss made a counteroffer, "I'll give you 44 episodes, and throw in two made-for-TV movies, for double the money." So the deal was made for two seasons of Whatever, the next Whedon TV/Internet project.



Can you cite this? I can't find anything that mentions it, and that seems like it'd kinda make the news somewhere.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

The story about Joss' Whatever TV deal is just as silly as Mark Zuckerberg's guest appearance on The Simpsons last week. . . But we can dream, can't we?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Zuckerberg





I thought it sounded like BS (from math alone, no single season costs THAT much). Just thought Id get confirmation.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, October 4, 2010 3:27 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
I thought it sounded like BS (from math alone, no single season costs THAT much). Just thought I'd get confirmation.

It's high quality show. I got the idea for $100 Million from: www.nytimes.com/2010/09/23/education/23newark.html

I can add that Mark Zuckerberg insisted that actress Jewel Staite be a leading cast member of the Whedon Whatever TV/Facebook project and be paid at least $125,000 per episode. Staite responded to NY Times by saying, "For that kind of money I'll add to Joss Whedon's legend by having his lovechild." It was apparent to reporter Richard Pérez-Peña that Staite was joking, although Staite claimed that she was serious. "If it's a daughter, I'm naming her Kaylee."

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, October 4, 2010 6:48 PM

BRUCEPLUTO


Don’t know that it could ever happen, but I’d truly enjoy seeing the credits roll and seeing Joss’ name come up on an upcoming episode of DEXTER. Did a season 4 marathon of the show this past weekend and really enjoyed it. Be fun to see what Joss would do with the character.

Also Chuck I think could really benefit from the Joss touch. Fedak could use a few fresh ideas in the show……and what can I say about Castle!!? A Joss/Fillion team-up would likely make past episodes of the show resemble a “sand Castle”……just a little pun.

Anyway, those are a few of the side-bar projects I’d like to see Joss get involved in while maybe getting ready to plug the new start of a new (old) space western…….Hey I can dream can’t I?

WE hold, BPZ

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Tuesday, October 5, 2010 4:27 AM

GWEK


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
I thought it sounded like BS (from math alone, no single season costs THAT much).



Depends on your cast. If you've got Hugh Laurie and Charlie Sheen...

Seriously, though, 100 million for a season--especially a direct-to-DVD series, with no apparent support from outside vendors--isn't unreasonable.

That comes to just over 4.5 million per episode. The FIREFLY pilot, which was actually two episodes, cost 10 million (or 5 million per episode). While this was the most expensive episode of the season, I don't imagine costs have gotten significantly cheaper since 2001/2002.

Ultimately, though, the pricetag of 4.5 million per episode would be erroneous, because the 100 million total would also have to cover start-up and development (which would drain a significant portion of the cash away), marketing (without a network to support it, any television spots would be pricey), development and maintenance of ancillary materials (eg, official web site and forums, as well as any related products), and design and production of the actual DVD set.

Honestly, I think 100 million might be right about on the nose for the overall cost of a well-produced first season. Sure, it would likely make back a significant portion in DVD sales and rentals, but since a TV series makes a significant amount of its profit via commercials, I don't think there would be tons of cash to devote to next season.

All theoretical, of course, but kinda interesting nonetheless.





www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, October 5, 2010 4:29 AM

GWEK


To the main point of the post, however: what do I want to see Joss do next?

I don't really care what he does, but I hope he gets his magic back.

The tragedy of FIREFLY took something from him that I don't know if he'll ever get back.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, October 5, 2010 5:12 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by GWEK:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
I thought it sounded like BS (from math alone, no single season costs THAT much).



Depends on your cast. If you've got Hugh Laurie and Charlie Sheen...

Seriously, though, 100 million for a season--especially a direct-to-DVD series, with no apparent support from outside vendors--isn't unreasonable.

That comes to just over 4.5 million per episode. The FIREFLY pilot, which was actually two episodes, cost 10 million (or 5 million per episode). While this was the most expensive episode of the season, I don't imagine costs have gotten significantly cheaper since 2001/2002.

Ultimately, though, the pricetag of 4.5 million per episode would be erroneous, because the 100 million total would also have to cover start-up and development (which would drain a significant portion of the cash away), marketing (without a network to support it, any television spots would be pricey), development and maintenance of ancillary materials (eg, official web site and forums, as well as any related products), and design and production of the actual DVD set.

Honestly, I think 100 million might be right about on the nose for the overall cost of a well-produced first season. Sure, it would likely make back a significant portion in DVD sales and rentals, but since a TV series makes a significant amount of its profit via commercials, I don't think there would be tons of cash to devote to next season.

All theoretical, of course, but kinda interesting nonetheless.


www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."



The most expensive regular series so far has been LOST, which ran around 2.5 - 2.8 million an episode, with a $14 million pilot. So, even on the high end, it still wouldn't have cost nearly $100 million for a season. And that's for one of the biggest TV hits of the last decade.

Sure, Sheen makes a lot on his sitcom, but it's again, a huge hit, and the rest of the show is pretty cheap.

Thinking the pilot is representative of an average episode is totally off. Most of the development costs are included in the pilot's budget, which includes everything from assembling the writing team, to designing and building costumes, sets and props (sure, that stuff is continually done throughout a season, but the lion's share is done for the pilot). Those start up fees you mention are why pilot budgets are so high, and thus why yes, 4.5 per episode would be outrageous, because episode budgets don't cover start-up.

There are some outliers - HBO spent $125 million on Band of Brothers, but that had the backing of Spielberg and Hanks, and required shooting all over Europe with a huge cast and crew - very expensive.

And a series done at that price, with only a DVD release planned (and thus zero ad buys/revenue) would have to be a massive success to make any money back.

So, sure, a number like that is theoretically possible - but it would be really stupid from a business perspective. Especially for an untried business model. Something like that would be lucky to get a start-up budget of half that number.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, October 5, 2010 6:08 AM

GWEK


I'm not disagreeing that it would be a terrible business model (in fact, I think I even hinted at that).

By the way, I never indicated that I thought the cost of the FIREFLY pilot was indicative of each episode's cost (although I can see how you could read that into my post). I know what the other episodes cost, relatively speaking. But consider that Joss doesn't follow traditional TV standards, so if he were given carte blanche, there's no reason to believe he wouldn't use all that money on quality and further development. If there's any man in Hollywood who can make a 3 million dollar episode look like it cost 15 million, it's him.

Anyway...

As I noted in my intial post, you're looking at the 100 million as just the cost of the episodes, averaged out, which fails to take into account marketing and ancillary work. Presumably, for the initial post, that covers EVERYTHING.

A direct-to-DVD series would likely need to be marketed very similarly to a movie if it were to have any broad market, and movies often spend almost as much in advertising as they do on the acutal project.

I think the 100 million would break down something like this:

2-episode pilot (including start-up/development): 15 million (for the record, this is significantly less than the 50 million rumored pricetag on BOARDWALK EMPIRE's pilot episode)
Marketing: 30 million (which I think is conservative)
Ancillary costs (Web site, etc): 1 million
Development and production of DVDs: 4 million?

That's half the money right there. That leaves 2.5 million per episode, for the remaining 20 episodes, which, admittedly, is on the high side, but just think about what Joss could do with that!

(As an aside, LOST may be the most expensive long-running successful show, but there are others with a higher per-episode pricetag. For example, KINGS was reputed to cost 4 million per episode... which very likely contributed to there being only 12 episodes...)

Again, my assertions are as follows:

1) 100 million is not an unreasonable cost for a direct-to-video DVD season of 22 episodes.

2) It would, however, be bad business.








www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, October 5, 2010 6:33 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by GWEK:


As I noted in my intial post, you're looking at the 100 million as just the cost of the episodes, averaged out, which fails to take into account marketing and ancillary work. Presumably, for the initial post, that covers EVERYTHING.



Uh, no I'm not - I directly addressed that. Aside from marketing costs, which are generally not counted in the initial budget anyway.

Quote:

A direct-to-DVD series would likely need to be marketed very similarly to a movie if it were to have any broad market, and movies often spend almost as much in advertising as they do on the acutal project.


Yep, which makes it even harder to recoup such a ridiculously high budget.

And you're also talking about movies with a theatrical run, which provides a far, far higher profile. The model you are talking about would be more akin to a DTV movie, and thus a much smaller return.

Quote:

I think the 100 million would break down something like this:

2-episode pilot (including start-up/development): 15 million (for the record, this is significantly less than the 50 million rumored pricetag on BOARDWALK EMPIRE's pilot episode)
Marketing: 30 million (which I think is conservative)
Ancillary costs (Web site, etc): 1 million
Development and production of DVDs: 4 million?



Guessing at numbers doesn't make sense. You're also way off on Boardwalk Empire - it's $50 million for the first season, not the pilot alone. Though some sites are running the 50 mill figure for the pilot alone after the New York Post guessed at the budget, so maybe you read one of those. The pilot's cost, according to HBO and The Wall Street Journal, was a bit under $20 million, with the remaining 30 being spread out over remaining 11 episodes putting the per-episode budget at about 2.8 million per). And even then, a lot of that was costs that will be spread across the season, like the $5 mill they spent building the boardwalk set - a cost that will not continue (aside from upkeep) over the rest of the season.


Quote:

(As an aside, LOST may be the most expensive long-running successful show, but there are others with a higher per-episode pricetag. For example, KINGS was reputed to cost 4 million per episode... which very likely contributed to there being only 12 episodes...)


Uh.... again, I did address that (did you actually read my post...?). mentioned there were instances with higher budgets. But, as you point out - those shows tend to not be sustainable. Which again gos to show that the number you're talking about is very, very unrealistic.


Quote:

1) 100 million is not an unreasonable cost for a direct-to-video DVD season of 22 episodes.

2) It would, however, be bad business.



Well, I'll agree with you on the latter. But all the evidence out there tends to say that the former is rather ludicrous.








www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."



"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, October 5, 2010 7:01 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
And a series done at that price, with only a DVD release planned (and thus zero ad buys/revenue) would have to be a massive success to make any money back.

So, sure, a number like that is theoretically possible - but it would be really stupid from a business perspective. Especially for an untried business model. Something like that would be lucky to get a start-up budget of half that number.

There is no business model. This is pure philanthropy by Mark Zuckerberg, chief executive and a founder of Facebook. Browncoats will love Mark when he contributes to our favorite charity - Firefly.

Joss Whedon gets in trouble with executives when he doesn't give them predictable shows: "Television -- both drama and public affairs -- consists largely of stylized popular mythology in which there are certain obligatory characters who must say and do certain things in a particular order. After watching the first minute of any television drama, most viewers could layout the scenario that will follow, including the conclusion. Given the first line of banter in most scenes, a regular viewer could probably rhyme off the next three or four lines. Nothing can be more formal, stylized and dogmatic than a third-rate situation comedy or a television news report on famine in Africa. There is more flexibility in a Catholic mass or in classic Chinese opera." - www.american-buddha.com/lit.voltairebastard.18.htm

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, October 5, 2010 7:50 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
There is no business model. This is pure philanthropy by Mark Zuckerberg, chief executive and a founder of Facebook.



There is no model, because this is imaginary.

One quick tip though - billionaires don't tend to become billionaires by spending money foolishly.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, October 5, 2010 10:27 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by two:
There is no business model. This is pure philanthropy by Mark Zuckerberg, chief executive and a founder of Facebook.



There is no model, because this is imaginary.

One quick tip though - billionaires don't tend to become billionaires by spending money foolishly.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and $#@! him."

Reality is that TV shows are financed by old-old billionaires who love old-old William Shatner in $#*! My Dad Says, proving that TV billionaires do tend to spend money foolishly. . .

Maybe you bought FOX's Firefly from Walmart? FOX's Rupert Murdoch and Walmart's Walton Family would never finance more Firefly, because they're all money and no taste. But that's what Firefly needs -- somebody rich to finance Firefly. Or 500,000 Browncoats to give $49 each to restart Firefly. I doubt there is 1,000 Browncoats who would. The other 499,000 would want for their $49 a Firefly Season 2 DVD set, a tee-shirt in their size, and a guaranteed profit on their "investment". Because of that psychological craving for a guarantee, they will not help. For free is the only price they are willing to pay, which is what they pay to watch Shatner in $#*! But all we really need is one Mark Zuckerberg, 26, young and idealistic. Joss Whedon needs a multi-billionaire philanthropist.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, October 5, 2010 10:40 AM

ZEEK


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
Joss Whedon needs a multi-billionaire philanthropist.


I still think that would make a fun campaign. Firefly for Firefighters was a good cause. Time for Firefly for Billionaires. Get a list of Billionaires and their addresses. Have fans pick up a copy of the DVD set and send it off to a billionaire and report back so we don't send duplicates. Surely some billionaire will fall in love and fund a return. Simple as pie. I'm too lazy to make pie though. So, you plan it, k? Thanks!

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Tuesday, October 5, 2010 10:55 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by Zeek:
Quote:

Originally posted by two:
Joss Whedon needs a multi-billionaire philanthropist.


I still think that would make a fun campaign. Firefly for Firefighters was a good cause. Time for Firefly for Billionaires. Get a list of Billionaires and their addresses. Have fans pick up a copy of the DVD set and send it off to a billionaire and report back so we don't send duplicates. Surely some billionaire will fall in love and fund a return. Simple as pie. I'm too lazy to make pie though. So, you plan it, k? Thanks!

I've already done that. Mark Zuckerberg's secretary was afraid that I was the Unabomber. The unopened Firefly box set was thrown directly into the trash. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kaczynski

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, October 5, 2010 11:01 AM

ZEEK


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
I've already done that. Mark Zuckerberg's secretary was afraid that I was the Unabomber. The unopened Firefly box set was thrown directly into the trash. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kaczynski


That's why you were supposed to be the organizer not the sender. I look nice and sane.

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Tuesday, October 5, 2010 11:26 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


TV version of Doctor Horrible. Or he reprise his idea to work with Anthony Head on "Ripper"


Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

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Tuesday, October 5, 2010 11:33 AM

STORYMARK


I would looove to finally see Ripper.

Not holding my breath, mind you, but I'd love it.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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