GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

The man they call Jayne

POSTED BY: CROWLEY
UPDATED: Monday, April 5, 2004 13:32
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 3941
PAGE 1 of 1

Sunday, April 4, 2004 4:38 AM

CROWLEY


This surely isn't the first or the last thread on the subject, but that won't stop me. In short: Jayne is one of my favourite characters in the show. What I love about him is the conflict in his character. At first he seems like he's just a greedy bastard, but clearly he's got some morals that go before that. Jaynestown shed some light on that nicely, as did the end of Ariel. "Don't tell them what I did."

And now for some speculations on my part. From the first time when I saw Ariel, I thought that Jayne has a change of heart when Simon explains to him what was done to River. Why else would he suddenly want to get them out of there? I think he could've easily let Simon keep himself busy until the authorities came.

Furthermore, Jayne seems to be always on the lookout for big bucks, but in The Message we learn that he sends some home for his family. Maybe that's it? His family might be poor (Jayne clearly hasn't received good schooling) and they need the money Jayne sends them to get along. That would explain why he's in constant conflict over betraying his friends for money. And further on Jayne's family: someone pointed out in the "Things you didn't pick up at first viewing" that Jayne wears his best shirt for Heart of Gold. Coupled with his readiness to help whores and his general kindness towards them (he clearly wasn't just looking for a good lay) maybe his mother was one?


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 5:18 AM

MAUGWAI


I've often thought Jayne had more potential to grow than anybody else on the boat. He's a lot like Cordelia in may ways.

I also really want to see the history between him and Mal explored, too. He seems to completely trust Mal and respect him. He obeys Mal, albeit reluctantly, when nobody else can control Jayne. And in "War Stories", he contributed money to Zoe's plot to free Wash and Mal. Jayne NEVER gives up his money. Then, after talking all big about how it was a suicide mission, he straps on his guns and joins the fight to save them.

I think Mal must have done something for him at some point, maybe saved his life or something.



"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 5:56 AM

JEBBYPAL


Hmmm, I agree that Jayne's character had room to grow, but at the same time I think you are giving him more credit for his actions early in the series. *spoilers ahead


In Ariel, if he really had a change of heart about rescuing River and Simon all he had to do was return to the chopper w/ the rest of the crew instead of going out the "back way". Also, as far as giving up his money for the pot and not wanting the crew to know what he did, I think he is acutely aware of how the crew judges him, but knows its in his best interests if they don't think too badly of him. As a mercenary, he may not save someone else if there is nothing in it for him, but if he found himself in Mal's place, he'd want the rest of the crew to come for him as well.

Not to say he's all bad, he does send money home. But at the same time, his own morals are not the same as mal and he doesn't really care about honor cause money is worth more -- case in point, the heist on Jaynestown. he threw his partner out before the money!

That said, i think staying on the same ship among a tight-knit crew was probably having an effect on him and would have been seen further in the series. But I'm sure we'd also have seen alot more times when his own code of actions conflicted with the rest of the crew as well.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 7:42 AM

CROWLEY


Quote:

Originally posted by jebbypal:
not wanting the crew to know what he did, I think he is acutely aware of how the crew judges him, but knows its in his best interests if they don't think too badly of him.



At least I think that he honestly thought he was going to die, and he didn't want the others to remember him as a betrayer.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 8:36 AM

WREN


Quote:

Originally posted by Crowley:
I thought that Jayne has a change of heart when Simon explains to him what was done to River. Why else would he suddenly want to get them out of there? I think he could've easily let Simon keep himself busy until the authorities came.



I think he wanted to get them out of there because he was concerned about too much time passing and Mal coming after them. Like Jebbypal said he could always have taken them out the other way.

I always wondered whether the name was a tribute to the great wild west film hero, John Wayne. Replace the W with the J and you get Jayne. Equally, John Waynes real name was a girls name (I think it was Marion). His parents called him that to toughen him up.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 10:04 AM

SHINY


Quote:

Originally posted by maugwai:
He seems to completely trust Mal and respect him. He obeys Mal, albeit reluctantly, when nobody else can control Jayne.



Perhaps like River, at some level Jayne also sees Mal as some kind of father figure? Or at least is drawn to him because of a lack of strong leaders to 'look up to' in his past?

Please help Haken keep this site running by occasionally clicking on some of the sponsored ad links on the side of the page!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 12:40 PM

LEAFY


It's interesting that Book is the only one who treats Jayne with any respect. Maybe he sees a side of Jayne that the others are missing.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 4:44 PM

LJOSALF


Quote:

Originally posted by Crowley:
...Furthermore, Jayne seems to be always on the lookout for big bucks, but in The Message we learn that he sends some home for his family.



All we really, absolutely know for sure is that Jayne got a package in the mail that had a very funny hat in it and that Jayne identified the package as coming from his mother. (Book, by the way, suggests that the package might actually be dangerous. I have my suspicions as to why.) Way back, at the very beginning of Serenity, Joss uses a dramatic storytelling trick--juxtaposition--to tag Jayne as a "motherless son of a bitch." (I know, I know, the phrase literally refers to the situation the crew of Serenity suddenly find themselves in when the Alliance cruiser shows up, but it nevertheless very subtly tags Jayne as well.) So what if this is more or less true--the motherless part--and Jayne sent the package to himself as way to relieve some of the tension that had been developing between himself and the rest of the crew.?


Think back to the opening sequence in Out of Gas, where we (and Wash) come in at the end of a funny story told by Book about a fellow shepherd or other religious who appeared utterly ridiculous but whom no one was willing to disillusion by even so much as a off-hand comment, one must suppose out of Christian charity, because he was so proud of whatever it was. Jayne's hat is the rough equivalent of this story and has the effect of altering the way at least some of the crew perceive him. Kaylee, Inara and Wash all cock their heads to one side in a way that is suggestive of this changed point of view. Kaylee pronounces the hat sweet, and, although Wash makes a hilariously ironic comment about the hat, he says it in such a way that it can be taken as an affirmation.

Jayne just isn't as dumb as he often plays and everyone on Serenity takes him. I noticed, from the pilot episode on, Jayne is constantly watching other people's reactions to developments (not action, mind you--he just seems to react in those situations) before reacting himself. Watch the scene where Simon is telling his story to the crew in the mess. Part way through, Jayne gets up, ostensibly to refresh his cup of coffee (or tea); however, this puts him in the perfect position to observer Mal unobtrusively. Jayne's watching the others react to Simon whereas the others are listening and reacting to Simon. Jayne does this sort of thing most often with Mal, and, yes, Mal matters to Jayne. But, this may simply be because Mal is the autocrat on board Serenity--his word is law and he is the one who says who stays and who goes and Jayne isn't ready to leave Serenity. Jayne has to satisfy, mollify and placate Mal to keep his position aboard ship, and no one else.

There is also Jayne's somewhat syncopated posturing when they first run across the derelict ship in Bushwhacked. It's pretty clear that Jayne only changes his attitude about stopping after Mal says they will indeed stop but for the purpose of scavenging. It appears though that Mal's decision is swayed by Book's reference to the Good Samaritan. Jayne's apparent change of heart reflects what he takes to be Mal's change of heart.

Also, Jayne is wanted by someone somewhere for some serious transgression--the "Six men came to kill me once..." story from Our Mrs. Reynolds. The reason Mal gave Simon that he and River would be better off aboard Serenity, because they would be harder to find if they stayed on the move, applies equally well to Jayne. Might be folks scrutinizing Serenity because some high profile fugitives might be on board doesn't suit Jayne since it could lead whoever wanted him dead badly to take notice of Serenity as well. The goal may have been to get the Tams off the ship. The rich reward for turning them in would have been mighty fine icing on that cake. Oh, and, when River is babbling about Christmas at the Security Substation, she is reading Jayne's emotions not only about the cop cheating him out of the reward ("...don't look in the closet. It's greedy. Not in the spirit of the holiday.") but also missing out on the original score ("They took Christmas away")--it has nothing to do with what was done to River at the Academy.

Just a few thoughts. Jayne has a lot of potential for both improvement and deterioration.

Ljosalf

The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
Marcel Proust (1871 - 1922)

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 5:02 PM

MAUGWAI


Quote:

Originally posted by ljosalf:

All we really, absolutely know for sure is that Jayne got a package in the mail that had a very funny hat in it and that Jayne identified the package as coming from his mother. (Book, by the way, suggests that the package might actually be dangerous. I have my suspicions as to why.) Way back, at the very beginning of Serenity, Joss uses a dramatic storytelling trick--juxtaposition--to tag Jayne as a "motherless son of a bitch." (I know, I know, the phrase literally refers to the situation the crew of Serenity suddenly find themselves in when the Alliance cruiser shows up, but it nevertheless very subtly tags Jayne as well.) So what if this is more or less true--the motherless part--and Jayne sent the package to himself as way to relieve some of the tension that had been developing between himself and the rest of the crew.?


Think back to the opening sequence in Out of Gas, where we (and Wash) come in at the end of a funny story told by Book about a fellow shepherd or other religious who appeared utterly ridiculous but whom no one was willing to disillusion by even so much as a off-hand comment, one must suppose out of Christian charity, because he was so proud of whatever it was. Jayne's hat is the rough equivalent of this story and has the effect of altering the way at least some of the crew perceive him. Kaylee, Inara and Wash all cock their heads to one side in a way that is suggestive of this changed point of view. Kaylee pronounces the hat sweet, and, although Wash makes a hilariously ironic comment about the hat, he says it in such a way that it can be taken as an affirmation.



Ect., ect...

Good lord, man. I thought I was into analysis. That is some deep stuff.

Jayne does watch everyone, especially Book, but i think that's more out of his lack of comprehesion. He doesn't understand their motives, so he's puzzled by their actions.

I never thought about the idea that he was running from something like the six men who came to kill him. Makes sense. Just about everybody on that ship is running from something. Just like almost everybody on the ship has a secret, it would certainly fit if Jayne had a secret or two.



"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 6:17 PM

MCNALLY


It may not be the first thread on the subject Crowley, but you can never have too much Jayne talk.

I'm with Jebbypal in regards to his potential development - "Saint Jayne" wasn't under that surface, but the situation on the ship was leading to moral conflict and possible growth that we just never got to see.

Quote:

Originally posted by Wren:
Replace the W with the J and you get Jayne. Equally, John Waynes real name was a girls name (I think it was Marion). His parents called him that to toughen him up.



Hey neat! I knew the John Wayne story and I still didn't notice that.

Quote:

Originally posted by Maugwai:
I think Mal must have done something for him at some point, maybe saved his life or something.



Maybe... I don't know if it was anything dramatic. They've probably saved each others lives a number of times, Zoe too, just by shooting the opposition. I think his attitude to Mal is a combination of things:

A) Jayne's a mama's boy, religious - I think he
also does respect the chain of command on an everyday basis. Until the price is good enough to betray him or chance knocks him out of the picture, Mal's the captain.

B) Only Jayne and Zoe may have seen the real darkness in Mal. Zoe understands it and in a way maybe pities it. Jayne fears and respects it.

C) They honestly seem like friends. The "How drunk was I?" aside in Mrs. Reynolds and the opening of The Train Job alone show them in a very "drinking buddy" sort of light.

As for Jayne's observing the others, we know from the day Mal and Zoe hired him that Jayne's a skilled tracker. The sniffing's part of this too. He's not smart in a lot of ways, but I don't think anyone on board doubts his ability to keep tabs on anyone and everything in a given situation. It's part of why he's so good at killing people.

Ljosalf, having read your other posts I see where you're going with the package thing and it's an interesting idea, but I really don't think the dude sent himself that hat.

Oh, and I bet there are a whole lot of people who want him dead. Mal too. Such is their life.

(edited to close a tag - doh!)


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 7:17 PM

JEBBYPAL


Quote:

A) Jayne's a mama's boy, religious -


Okay, just a little curious where you draw that conclusion from McNally. I mean, yes there's the package, but well, there's very little in Jayne's character that we've seen actually onscreen to be interpretted as a mama's boy (or at least the way I've always seen it interpreted). Pretty much the same feeling on religion -> to me it appears that he most likely views religion in the same way that he does the law. That is if no one appears to be watching it doesn't much matter what you do. Just curious as to where you are drawing your opinions from:)

Just for sake of conversation and argument, what's everyone's opinions on his actions in Safe? I was under the impression that Jayne had been with the ship for some period of time before the Tams arrival (although I"m unclear as to if it is longer or shorter than Inara's). I'm a little surprised at the speed with which he ransack's Simon's belongings. Granted, this could go towards the "not so smart" category - but in general, I feel Jayne has a little bit better read on people than to assume Mal will leave them behind (although I can believe wishful thinking since he doesn't like Simon).

My interpretation is that it is another instance to contrast his own moral code to that of the rest of the crew: I think that if they did leave the Tams on the planet, most of the crew would have felt they should split the belongings/money at least (ignoring Inara, Kaylee, and Book's feelings her of course). Whereas, in his typical all for me code, Jayne sees the opportunity to plunder while everyone is more concerned with Book.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 5, 2004 3:31 AM

MUTT999


In "Ariel", did Jayne have a change of heart? I've always wondered about it as fans have good points for both sides. It's something we may never really know....

"That's the buffet table....."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 5, 2004 5:02 AM

BLAZINGBUG


I think Jayne was set to grow over the course of the series, and I think the ending of Ariel was a major influence on that change, but perhaps not in the way some people think.

It's not the fear of Mal taking him out if he betrays the crew; it is the realization that Mal would have done the same if it had been him that was betrayed. Mal says what you do to my crew, you do to me. Jayne realizes he is a part of that crew, and here is someone who will go to the wall for him.

I don't think he's ever had that in his life, and ultimately it could make him into one of the most loyal of the crew (even if he grumbles about it).

It's interesting to note in the Saint Jayne discussion about performing miracles (although that's not exactly how it works) that they don't mention there is a way to enter Sainthood without a miracle... you have to be a martyr.

Kind of makes you wonder if down the road, Jayne might not have made the ultimate sacrifice for the crew. Or perhaps to save Book, as a martyr is someone who dies for their faith.

Just a thought.

"Wacky fun..."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 5, 2004 6:39 AM

MCNALLY


Quote:

Originally posted by jebbypal:
Quote:

A) Jayne's a mama's boy, religious -


Okay, just a little curious where you draw that conclusion from McNally. I mean, yes there's the package, but well, there's very little in Jayne's character that we've seen actually onscreen to be interpretted as a mama's boy (or at least the way I've always seen it interpreted). Pretty much the same feeling on religion -> to me it appears that he most likely views religion in the same way that he does the law. That is if no one appears to be watching it doesn't much matter what you do. Just curious as to where you are drawing your opinions from:)



And it is a fair curiosity. Rereading my own post, I really should have qualified those with an "it's my impression" or some such thing and explained. Sorry, typing frantically in attempt to get to bed.

Anyway, I obviously got most of my impression that Jayne is a mama's boy mainly from the opening of The Message. Not only the information that he's sending money home, but because of the way he reacts to just getting a letter from mom. He reads it outloud without hesitation or prompting (Book makes the joke about the package being dangerous, but I don't recall anybody actually asking Jayne who it's from or what the letter says). To him it is the most natural thing in the world to assume that what his mother has to say is important to the rest of the crew. Unless I missed a look, none of them seem surprised to learn that he's sending money home, either. Add to that his instant love of the hat (lots of people get clothing from mom and promptly pack it away never to be touched) and it seems that not only is his mother a figure of importance in Jayne's life, but that it's likely the crew already knew this. Less specific, the way he dresses up for the whores in Heart of Gold just makes me think he was trained by his mother that some things are simply proper. Putting on his "Sunday best", if you will. (She might not have told him to dress up for sex, mind you...) I know that one's reaching, but it was my first impression of the scene, even before I saw The Message.

As for religion, I don't think it's a show he's putting on. The speed with which he bowed his head for pre-dinner prayer (in Serenity, I think?) was certainly a tip-off, but when he tells Book that the Lord should watch over the dead and wonders if the preacher will say a few words for him - I don't think this makes him a pious man, I just think it makes him someone who honestly believes in the existence of God and His place in their lives.


That was longwinded. Sorry.

As for Safe, I think he you're right he was trying to get in first and get the goods. In these pre-Ariel days though, he likely didn't think Mal would really consider Simon and River part of the crew.

Interesting point about martyrdom, Blazingbug. I've heard lots of people suggest Jayne sacrificing himself for River, but I think Book would be a better twist. Maybe we'll find out when it gets renewed as a series after the film.

I'm not sure yet what I think about a change of heart in Arielso here's my question to the crowd - does anyone remember signs of Jayne considering betrayal after this episode? In War Stories he pitches in to buy the guys back then suits up for the rescue... those are the only big character moments I can think of. Were there any "bad" ones?




NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 5, 2004 7:31 AM

RIJPE


I was really struck at the time by Mal and Jayne's conversation at the end of Ariel, mentioned above. Mal says that if Jayne betrays anyone on the crew, he betrays Mal.

Some of the posts above have made me think how closely this resembles something that I think Jesus said (forgive me if I misquote, I'm not Christian) "Whatever you do to any of my children you do to me."

I agree that Jayne was changed by this experience because he realized that Mal would have protected Jayne in the same way that Mal was protecting River and Simon. I suspect that Jayne has spent many years in the dog-eat-dog world of gun-for-hire. What he did to his ex-partner we meet from Jaynestown is an example. And remember how upset Jayne was when the kid in Jaynestown sacrificed his life for Jayne's? I think trusting people is a somewhat new concept.

I still think Jayne is capable of turning to the dark side of the force, but I suspect that we will see his redemption. To really show that he has changed, though, in the most "fitting" way, I think that he would have to sacrifice himself for someone else. It would show the full measure of how much he has changed.



"But she was all articulate..."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 5, 2004 1:32 PM

JEBBYPAL


Quote:

does anyone remember signs of Jayne considering betrayal after this [Ariel]?


Hmm, actually thinking about it, he doesn't really do anything bad other than his normal crudeness after that -- unsure if that's a sign of true change or if the episodes just didn't focus on him much. I do think it's interesting though, in Heart of Gold, Jayne wears a hat --- Joss confirmed that a lot of the bad guys wear hats, and almost any time the crew goes out into society, Jayne is the single one wearing a hat. So perhaps Joss is saying that Jayne really hasn't changed all that much?

Definitely understand the mama's boy part now --- my impression as to why he read the letter out loud was more that he just didn't read well. And well, I agree your explanation of the hat makes more sense. I had been just assuming that the crew was keeping quiet because they were very accustomed to his horrid fashion sense (since the hat was almost identical to the one from train job but in yarn).

I don't know, I guess I'm just skeptical that Jayne had much of a true change of heart post-Ariel. But then, I guess that just shows I'm too cynical. My interpretation of the end of Ariel and then his behavior towards the crew in War Stories is just that he's had the bejesus scared out of him and is worried that Mal will decide to shoot him in the back (despite his assurances otherwise. I mean, a man like Jayne who doesn't trust others much at all most likely has serious issues over whether to believe a man he just betrayed. However, you've all convinced me I must critically rewatch the entire season w/ an eye towards Jayne

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

FFF.NET SOCIAL