GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

My 10 year old in some FF related trouble

POSTED BY: JUSTDAVID
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 11:57
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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 7:29 AM

JUSTDAVID


My 10 year old daughter, Leita, is on spring break right now and while I'm at work she stays at the child care program at her school. Yesterday when I went to pick her up, the woman in charge pulls me aside to explain that Leita was in some trouble earlier. Apparently there were some older girls that were picking on her and she got angry and called one of them a "ta ma de." Now no one there (except Leita) knows what that means, but she did confess that it was cussing in another language. The woman in charge said she would just leave any punishment for this up to me. On the way home Leita asked if I was mad, I said no, then she asked if I was dissapointed in her, and I said no and as long as she understood that she shouldn't do that again then we'll just let the whole thing go. But behind my poker face I'm thinking "WOO HOO! My daughter got in trouble for cussin' in chinese! How cool is that?!"

Maybe in a few years I can let her in on how I really felt.


"Light it."

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 7:42 AM

JENTLE


Okay... I'm just so proud of you for keeping the "WOO HOO" contained....

I don't think I could have done it.

==================
Every well-bred petty crook knows that the small concealable weapons always go to the far left of the place setting.

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 8:09 AM

SUENOS



I probably would have burst out laughing but good for you for being the dad! Look at it this way, she's now officially bi-lingual!

I wonder if I can teach my three year old neice to say "ta ma de?"

__________________________________
Butter is a tool, not an ingredient

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 8:10 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Great story JustDavid.

I have not had my children swear in Chinese yet, but they do say dong ma, bee jway, & mei mei. Kind of cool to hear them using Mandarin.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 1:30 PM

LINDLEY


Your daughter is the shiniest!

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 1:54 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Thank you, you put a much needed smile on my face today with that story

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 2:32 PM

HAKEN

Likes to mess with stuffs.


Quote:

Originally posted by JustDavid:
she got angry and called one of them a "ta ma de."



I dunno. Even if no one else understands it, it's a "really bad" phrase for a 10 year old to say. Does she fully understands what it means?

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 4:21 PM

TOMTBA2004


yes, very cool excpet she didn't really cuss anybody out...she said "Ta ma De (or) Duh" depending on your accent. but what she really said was.. " F*** me blind"

Tell her to say "Duh Ma" F*** you..or "do my" in engilsh pronounciation. next time she gets in a fight..ok.. Dong Ma?"

yes i know saying Dong ma is " you understand?"
and ta MA duh is f' ME blind keep in mind that the way you say it determines the actuall word. look for chineese translations on this site to learn about the 1,2,3,4 differnet ways to say one word..

Peace..

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 7:32 PM

JASONZZZ



Don't know where you got your translations from, but "Ta Ma de..." literally translates to Your/His/Her mama... but used in the same sense and generality as "F*ck" or "S*it"...

Kid 10 year old using that kind of language in China also stands around on the corner of the block smoking and beating each other up. If I catch my kid even thinking anything like that, we are going to go thru the 12 pack of Irish Spring before we are done.




Quote:

Originally posted by Tomtba2004:
yes, very cool excpet she didn't really cuss anybody out...she said "Ta ma De (or) Duh" depending on your accent. but what she really said was.. " F*** me blind"

Tell her to say "Duh Ma" F*** you..or "do my" in engilsh pronounciation. next time she gets in a fight..ok.. Dong Ma?"

yes i know saying Dong ma is " you understand?"
and ta MA duh is f' ME blind keep in mind that the way you say it determines the actuall word. look for chineese translations on this site to learn about the 1,2,3,4 differnet ways to say one word..

Peace..





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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 9:30 PM

HAKEN

Likes to mess with stuffs.


Quote:

Originally posted by Tomtba2004:
but what she really said was.. " F*** me blind"



Actually, doesn't it translate more closely to "F*** your mother."

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 9:49 PM

SASJA


Very cool

Cussing in chinese is great - I'm sure those kids giving her a hard time were pretty surprised.

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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 6:21 AM

JUSTDAVID


Quote:

Originally posted by Haken:
I dunno. Even if no one else understands it, it's a "really bad" phrase for a 10 year old to say. Does she fully understands what it means?

She's aware of the english translation, but I'm pretty sure she thinks of it as "extremely bad words" rather than the literal implication.
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
If I catch my kid even thinking anything like that, we are going to go thru the 12 pack of Irish Spring before we are done.

I fully support a parent's right to choose the methods they think are best for their child. In this case, I'm very satisfied with how I handled it.

Just for a little background, Leita is very intelligent (think Simon) and very emotional and caring about the people around her (think Kaylee). She never uses swear words, and is very big on following the rules. After this happened instead of thinking "will I get punished," her reaction was "what will dad's emotions be?" I would be completely amazed if something like this happened a second time.

Now, when I was first told what happened, if I had laughed and blurted out what I was thinking ("That's totally cool! What'd she say? Tell me all about it! Oh, I've got to tell my friends about this!") then I could see where I might be sending the wrong message.


"Light it."

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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 6:35 AM

JUSTDAVID


I wanted to respond to all the kind words too.

Jentle & Suenos - thanks for noting how hard it can be sometimes to balance intense Firefly fandom with good parenting.

Browncoat1 - thanks, and I think focusing on the "clean" chinese is probably best.

Lindley - thanks, I completely agree.

Sigmanunki - glad I could help (Teela once did the same for me).

Sasja - I bet so, too. Good thing they didn't get a translation or I probably get some unhappy parent phone calls.


"Light it."

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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 7:40 AM

EMBERS


I feel compelled to hope that the teacher had a talk with the parents of the little bullies as well!

Seems to me that swearing in an imperfectly understood foreign language is hardly an offense at all, while pushing around younger children is very serious...
JMPO

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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 7:44 AM

JASONZZZ


Not exactly necessarily, only in specific context.
Ta Ma De is really a lot more everyday generic utterance. When you direct it at someone, then it's something different.

You might be thinking of...

Gan Ni Ma De Chou Bi....

F* your mama's stinkin' ... well whatever...




Quote:

Originally posted by Haken:
Quote:

Originally posted by Tomtba2004:
but what she really said was.. " F*** me blind"



Actually, doesn't it translate more closely to "F*** your mother."





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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 7:45 AM

LISSA


Quote:

Originally posted by embers:
I feel compelled to hope that the teacher had a talk with the parents of the little bullies as well!

Seems to me that swearing in an imperfectly understood foreign language is hardly an offense at all, while pushing around younger children is very serious...
JMPO



good point!

btw--i really like your daughter's name!

~lissa, spwhore

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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 8:06 AM

JASONZZZ


Quote:

Originally posted by JustDavid:
Quote:

Originally posted by Haken:
I dunno. Even if no one else understands it, it's a "really bad" phrase for a 10 year old to say. Does she fully understands what it means?

She's aware of the english translation, but I'm pretty sure she thinks of it as "extremely bad words" rather than the literal implication.
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
If I catch my kid even thinking anything like that, we are going to go thru the 12 pack of Irish Spring before we are done.

I fully support a parent's right to choose the methods they think are best for their child. In this case, I'm very satisfied with how I handled it.



I fully agree with you. As for others who do nothing, exploits them, or gets carried away indulging them, I disagree.

Quote:

Originally posted by JustDavid:

Just for a little background, Leita is very intelligent (think Simon) and very emotional and caring about the people around her (think Kaylee). She never uses swear words, and is very big on following the rules. After this happened instead of thinking "will I get punished," her reaction was "what will dad's emotions be?" I would be completely amazed if something like this happened a second time.




Well... as my kids' Kteacher would put it so diplomatically (When we were applying our kids for the Magnet program) "A lot of parents think their kids are super bright"... Most kids *are* "bright" , "intelligent", "smart", they need the guidance, structure, and roles that parents can provide. Sounds like you are doing it. What I usually do is build some lessons and roleplay - have some fun and build confidence. Leita did what she did b/c she didn't have an existing library of responses for that situation. In addition to academics and other things, one way of building up social skills and life skills is to practice role-playing situations. Having them around other kids alot is good but not good enough - they end up learning and picking up strange behaviours from other kids who are just as clueless. (People are crying out now: boo, hiss. "let them experiement and learn on their own"). I say, role-play with them on different situations and what the responses might be - send them off with some recipes to start off with and dabble around.




Quote:

Originally posted by JustDavid:


Now, when I was first told what happened, if I had laughed and blurted out what I was thinking ("That's totally cool! What'd she say? Tell me all about it! Oh, I've got to tell my friends about this!") then I could see where I might be sending the wrong message.


"Light it."





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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 8:12 AM

JASONZZZ



Didn't see JustDavid describe actual physical pushing. IAC, most schools nowadays have an overly excessive "one strike" rule on kids getting physical on each other - not just hitting. Our school has a "no touch" policy - keep your hands to yourself or you are out. Bit excessive.

IAC, if Leita had blurted out "Oh yeah, Yo Mama".
It would have been ok? I believe she understands that's what the phrase to mean (It's not what it means, but that's how she used it)...


Quote:

Originally posted by embers:
I feel compelled to hope that the teacher had a talk with the parents of the little bullies as well!

Seems to me that swearing in an imperfectly understood foreign language is hardly an offense at all, while pushing around younger children is very serious...
JMPO





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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 10:44 AM

GHOULMAN


just sayin'... Most 10 year olds, let alone girls, DON'T stand up for themselves. Gotta say, you're daughter was right to do so. And BTW you must be doing something right to have such a great girl.

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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 12:07 PM

JERRY111


GAN!

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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 1:05 PM

JASONZZZ



Ghoulman,

something else I don't understand. People often congratulate each other as to "having a great kid". Is that in the possessive sense or an associative sense? (BTW, I hope it's more than that) IMHO, most parents don't provide hell of a lot more than "having' them around - well, other than providing them food, shelter, clothes, and entertainment. Sure, lots of other parents provide (or have no ability to) even less than the "basics". Seems to me that many people "have" kids just for the kicks: they are cute, everyone is having one, it makes my heart warm - or sometimes it was an accident and now I've got to owe up to it and take the responsibility.

Good Grief.

Maybe there's more to it than that. But I guess if people can barely keep the cupboards full and keep themselves entertained, they can hardly really provide comfort and structure for "people to be".


Quote:

Originally posted by Ghoulman:
just sayin'... Most 10 year olds, let alone girls, DON'T stand up for themselves. Gotta say, you're daughter was right to do so. And BTW you must be doing something right to have such a great girl.





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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 5:33 PM

TOMTBA2004


well Duh ma ma is "f your mom"
again look at the tone in which you say
ba ba is generaly dad an ma ma is mom
Ta ma Duh is f me blind says every translation i found. or it sounds like you are saying "Do my my" plus the wierd throat thing your suppoed to do. it is manderain chinese. you actually have to hear it to get it.

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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 5:59 PM

FANGOO


I'm sorry, new to here or not I think this is a terrible example and nothing to be proud of.

A 10 year old cussing is not a good thing. A 10 year old dealing with conflict regardless of why they were by cussing them out (in Chinese or not) isn't the way someone should be taught to deal with conflict. Life is filled with conflict often unwanted and learning to deal with it in a constructive manner is what seperates those people who are going to be successful in life. Yes I think that the actions and habits of children shape them and strongly influence who they become as adults.

A parent thinking it's cool their child knows Chinese cuss words and uses them probably should be watching less TV and spending more time with their kids in a more positive environment.

If this had been me and my child I would be doing some soul searching now where I had gone astray and how I might set a better example in the future.

I think Firefly was a great story arc and wonderful entertainment but I don't think it's a good example for my children to learn life lessons from.

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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 6:39 PM

THEFOP


Personally I think exchanging insults, and occasionally swearwords is a normal part of human life. I also think Fangoo needs to back down a bit here, let others raise their children as they see fit.

I admit, I'm a few years off from being in that age group, but as I recall most of us swore at some point or other> Kids do that. And no, I wasn't a "hanging out on the corner smoking cigarettes" kind of kid. But at that age it's natural for a kid to pick up some bad words and experiment with using them. The important thing isn't that the kid never learns to swear, it's how a parent reacts to it, how a parent teaches the child that it isn't appropriate in most circumstances to use that kind of language.

once the snow got so deep you almost couldn't hear margaret atwood

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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 7:40 PM

JASONZZZ


Ur... Where did "De ma ma" get translated
into "f your mom"... I think you are mixing
literal word for word translation with
translating an equivalent phrase.

"De ma ma" by itself only means " 's mom" and you can't really use it by itself. "Ni de ma ma" literally means "Your mother" and "Ta de ma ma" means "His/Her mother" ... Now you can certainly use "Ni de ma ma" as a curse word if you use it within the right context and phrase it in a particular way - actually "Ni ma ma" or "Ni ma" would be more appropriately the style - short and terse.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tomtba2004:
well Duh ma ma is "f your mom"
again look at the tone in which you say
ba ba is generaly dad an ma ma is mom
Ta ma Duh is f me blind says every translation i found. or it sounds like you are saying "Do my my" plus the wierd throat thing your suppoed to do.





ok. maybe you can point out where you found that translation...

But here translates it as "Oh Shit" (like I said, a general "F*ck" or "S*it" utterance ).
http://www.insultmonger.com/swearing/mandarin.htm

There is no way to translate "Ta ma de". It's how it is used. "Ta ma de" is used as a general expletive utterance. You can translate it to many of the equivalent English type utterance.

"F*ck!" , "S*it", "Holy Cow!", "Holy S*it".
"F*ck a Duck!", "F*ck me!" ... You can't take it as the literal meaning in either language.

Take "Holy Cow" for instance, you wouldn't necessarily translate it as "Xing Niu" - which is a perfectly good word for word translation - as

Xing = Holy, Saintly
Niu = The Dairy animal.

But the equivalent phrase in Chinese could probably be "Ta ma de"

Quote:

Originally posted by Tomtba2004:

it is manderain chinese. you actually have to hear it to get it.



Yeah, it is Mandarin Chinese. And that doesn't make any sense for what you are translating.


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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 7:44 PM

JASONZZZ



Agree with you 110% there Fangoo... Every single word of it.


Quote:

Originally posted by Fangoo:
I'm sorry, new to here or not I think this is a terrible example and nothing to be proud of.

A 10 year old cussing is not a good thing. A 10 year old dealing with conflict regardless of why they were by cussing them out (in Chinese or not) isn't the way someone should be taught to deal with conflict. Life is filled with conflict often unwanted and learning to deal with it in a constructive manner is what seperates those people who are going to be successful in life. Yes I think that the actions and habits of children shape them and strongly influence who they become as adults.

A parent thinking it's cool their child knows Chinese cuss words and uses them probably should be watching less TV and spending more time with their kids in a more positive environment.

If this had been me and my child I would be doing some soul searching now where I had gone astray and how I might set a better example in the future.

I think Firefly was a great story arc and wonderful entertainment but I don't think it's a good example for my children to learn life lessons from.





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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 7:49 PM

JASONZZZ



Sorry, a lot of things regular every day people do in regular every day life do is not appropriate for kids. I can think of about a hundred things without spending too much effort.

I too do swear when it is appropriate to be expressive in the right environment. I think society nowadays a bit too free with swear words - we really can stand to learn a bit more words to express our feelings and emotions.

I agree with you that kids/people will learn all of these things - when the time is appropriate and when they have the proper basis to deal with it. Maybe just not rightaway...


Quote:

Originally posted by thefop:
Personally I think exchanging insults, and occasionally swearwords is a normal part of human life. I also think Fangoo needs to back down a bit here, let others raise their children as they see fit.


I admit, I'm a few years off from being in that age group, but as I recall most of us swore at some point or other> Kids do that. And no, I wasn't a "hanging out on the corner smoking cigarettes" kind of kid. But at that age it's natural for a kid to pick up some bad words and experiment with using them. The important thing isn't that the kid never learns to swear, it's how a parent reacts to it, how a parent teaches the child that it isn't appropriate in most circumstances to use that kind of language.

once the snow got so deep you almost couldn't hear margaret atwood





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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 10:11 PM

SASJA


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

Agree with you 110% there Fangoo... Every single word of it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Fangoo:
I'm sorry, new to here or not I think this is a terrible example and nothing to be proud of.

A 10 year old cussing is not a good thing. A 10 year old dealing with conflict regardless of why they were by cussing them out (in Chinese or not) isn't the way someone should be taught to deal with conflict. Life is filled with conflict often unwanted and learning to deal with it in a constructive manner is what seperates those people who are going to be successful in life. Yes I think that the actions and habits of children shape them and strongly influence who they become as adults.

A parent thinking it's cool their child knows Chinese cuss words and uses them probably should be watching less TV and spending more time with their kids in a more positive environment.

If this had been me and my child I would be doing some soul searching now where I had gone astray and how I might set a better example in the future.

I think Firefly was a great story arc and wonderful entertainment but I don't think it's a good example for my children to learn life lessons from.



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I think this very up-tight stand on swear words is someting uniquely American, and something I never quite understood (maybe being a European?). Movies can get a higher rating for the word "fuck" than for having people's heads chopped off! I'm not in any doubt as to what I'd think would be more disturbing for my kid to watch.

While some things that are appropriate for adults aren't so for children, they're inappropriate for good reasons: alcohol and cigarettes (can cause irrepairable damage at a crucial stage in a human's growth), sex (for obvious reasons) etc. Why would swearing fall in this category? It's not really harmful in any way I can see, and can be a very effective form of communication. Describe to yourself in general terms a situation where cursing would be appropriate - why couldn't a child find herself in such a situation? Hoping not to offend (too much ), could it be that you wish your children to be picture perfect little angels rather than growing persons, living their own - sometimes quite tough - lives?

Of course, too much swearing (for adults and children alike) will impair a person's ability to express herself and is frowned upon by society in general. Children need to learn the social rules for swearing just like they need to learn a million other rules for interaction. If your child seems to have a problem in this respect, action needs to be taken. But it seems to me, from what we've heard, that Leita is quite on top of that.

Lastly, talking about things inappropriate, I think passing harsh judgements on people's parental skills - "(you) probably should be watching less TV and spending more time with (your) kids in a more positive environment." - on the basis of a disagreement about swearing is not the best example to set. Feel free to express your opinions, and do your best to respect others' right to do the same.

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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 10:35 PM

JASONZZZ


Quote:

Originally posted by sasja:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

Agree with you 110% there Fangoo... Every single word of it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Fangoo:
I'm sorry, new to here or not I think this is a terrible example and nothing to be proud of.

A 10 year old cussing is not a good thing. A 10 year old dealing with conflict regardless of why they were by cussing them out (in Chinese or not) isn't the way someone should be taught to deal with conflict. Life is filled with conflict often unwanted and learning to deal with it in a constructive manner is what seperates those people who are going to be successful in life. Yes I think that the actions and habits of children shape them and strongly influence who they become as adults.

A parent thinking it's cool their child knows Chinese cuss words and uses them probably should be watching less TV and spending more time with their kids in a more positive environment.

If this had been me and my child I would be doing some soul searching now where I had gone astray and how I might set a better example in the future.

I think Firefly was a great story arc and wonderful entertainment but I don't think it's a good example for my children to learn life lessons from.



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I think this very up-tight stand on swear words is someting uniquely American, and something I never quite understood (maybe being a European?). Movies can get a higher rating for the word "fuck" than for having people's heads chopped off! I'm not in any doubt as to what I'd think would be more disturbing for my kid to watch.




You get no arguments from me here. I think kids should get exposure to neither until they are ready for it. Ready to absorb it, ready to discuss it, ready to understand it, and ready to relate to it.

Quote:

Originally posted by sasja:


While some things that are appropriate for adults aren't so for children, they're inappropriate for good reasons: alcohol and cigarettes (can cause damage at a crucial stage in a human's growth), sex (for obvious reasons) etc. Why would swearing fall in this category? It's not really harmful in any way I can see, and can be a very effective form of communication. Describe to yourself in general terms a situation where cursing would be appropriate - why couldn't a child find herself in such a situation? Hoping not to offend (too much ), could it be that you wish your children to be picture perfect little angels rather than growing persons, living their own - sometimes quite tough - lives?




No, people get to spend about 2/3 of their lives being adults. Kids should be kids (not necessarily perfect angels) - kids should have the time to grow up at their own pace and not have the world thrust upon them. Kids have it tough enough trying to understand everything else going on around them. Sooner or later, we all get to learn what the real world is about. If they get another couple of years of not having to think about or worry about the real world out there and get to play with their lego blocks a couple more years - fine. That's another couple of years that we can spend building a better foundation for a couple of better people - maybe a bit more ready for the real world.

Will you drag your pre-toddlers by the arms and get them to run before they are even ready to crawl? After all, regular people walk everyday - and there isn't harm in walking. How about eating solid food when their digestive system isn't ready for it? Everybody eats solid food, so what's the harm in that? They are developmentally ready for it. Some things kids might not be physically ready for, other things they aren't mentally ready for, yet other things they aren't psychologically ready for. Learning the right basis and the right options can make a world of a difference.
Why should every kid have to thrash around trying to figure out the right answer in every situation? Yes, I agree, kids should learn on their own. Again, give them some boundaries and recipes to start from. Not only can they learn quicker and figure things out better.


Quote:

Originally posted by sasja:

Of course, too much swearing (for adults and children alike) will impair a person's ability to express herself and is frowned upon by society in general. Children need to learn the rules for swearing just like they need to learn a million other rules for interaction. If your child seems to have a problem in this respect, action needs to be taken. But it seems to me, from what we've heard, that Leita is quite on top of that.




Not sure what we are on top of... that she didn't have a way to express herself in that situation and ended up blurting out something she heard on TV without quite knowing what it is?








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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 10:51 PM

BOURNE


FWIW(and hoping this post isn't redundant), "Ta ma de" is a fragment of an obscene phrase, much like saying "What the-" or "Son of a-". The uttered portion itself translates(literally) as "his/her mother's-"(in the possessive sense). I never got a straight answer from any of my Chinese friends as to what the unspoken portion was, but I think we can make a pretty good guess...mine: something decidedly anatomical. I base this on the fact that there's no shortage of similarly crude and personal anatomical references in Putonghua(mainland vernacular) that are considered unacceptable outside of the "nanzi han"(read: male-chauvinist-pig drinking buddies). But I did hear "Ta ma de" uttered in mixed company under circs of extreme frustration.

But then, my Chinese was never better than your average 4-year-old's, and now it's nearly all gone. Except for the dirty words, of course...

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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 10:58 PM

SASJA


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Quote:

Originally posted by sasja:

While some things that are appropriate for adults aren't so for children, they're inappropriate for good reasons: alcohol and cigarettes (can cause damage at a crucial stage in a human's growth), sex (for obvious reasons) etc. Why would swearing fall in this category? It's not really harmful in any way I can see, and can be a very effective form of communication. Describe to yourself in general terms a situation where cursing would be appropriate - why couldn't a child find herself in such a situation? Hoping not to offend (too much ), could it be that you wish your children to be picture perfect little angels rather than growing persons, living their own - sometimes quite tough - lives?




No, people get to spend about 2/3 of their lives being adults. Kids should be kids (not necessarily perfect angels) - kids should have the time to grow up at their own pace and not have the world thrust upon them. Kids have it tough enough trying to understand everything else going on around them. Sooner or later, we all get to learn what the real world is about. If they get another couple of years of not having to think about or worry about the real world out there and get to play with their lego blocks a couple more years - fine.


I think this picture builds on the misconception that while children play with lego blocks their lives are full of bliss and they essentially have no worries. The real world is thrust upon them from day one, and rejection, hierarchy among playmates, bullying etc is everyday life even for pre school kids. Our job as parents is to help, support and guide them through these problems.
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
That's another couple of years that we can spend building a better foundation for a couple of better people - maybe a bit more ready for the real world.


Will you drag your pre-toddlers by the arms and get them to run before they are even ready to crawl? After all, regular people walk everyday - and there isn't harm in walking. How about eating solid food when their digestive system isn't ready for it? Everybody eats solid food, so what's the harm in that? They are developmentally ready for it.


Err, no, they're exactly not developmentally ready for it. And that's why I wouldn't do it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Some things kids might not be physically ready for, other things they aren't mentally ready for, yet other things they aren't psychologically ready for. Learning the right basis and the right options can make a world of a difference.
Why should every kid have to thrash around trying to figure out the right answer in every situation? Yes, I agree, kids should learn on their own. Again, give them some boundaries and recipes to start from. Not only can they learn quicker and figure things out better.


I perfectly agree. I don't see how this leads you to think that swearing is inappropriate for 10-years olds.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Quote:

Originally posted by sasja:

Of course, too much swearing (for adults and children alike) will impair a person's ability to express herself and is frowned upon by society in general. Children need to learn the rules for swearing just like they need to learn a million other rules for interaction. If your child seems to have a problem in this respect, action needs to be taken. But it seems to me, from what we've heard, that Leita is quite on top of that.




Not sure what we are on top of... that she didn't have a way to express herself in that situation and ended up blurting out something she heard on TV without quite knowing what it is?


She did have a way of expressing herself. And (assuming the circumstances were such that they warranted a good cussin') an appropiate way. The fact that she usually never swears, but reserves it for special situations, like when she's bullied by a group of older children, tells me she has successfully grasped the social rules for cursing. A lot of children may resort to physical aggression in a situation like that. Strong language is there to provide another option. Doing it in a language foreign to her tormentors is just more elegant and effective - not to mention cool

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Thursday, April 15, 2004 4:20 AM

EMBERS


Quote:

Doing it in a language foreign to her tormentors is just more elegant and effective - not to mention cool


This was actually part of my point (from far above): swearing in a foreign language
when your listeners have no idea what you said
has always been a socially acceptable way around the 'no cursing' rule:
That is why Joss could do it on TV!
That is why Jewish comedians used so much Yiddish.
The fact is that swearing in a foreign language does not function in the same way as saying it in a common language...
it is not inflamatory, it is only a curiosity...

Fact is if this young lady hadn't been so honest she could have gotten away with telling her teacher that it was a nonsense phrase and meant nothing at all...

So, okay, we want to teach children what is 'right' and keep them good an pure...
But I've never met a two year old yet who hasn't learned to say the most horrible things when they over-heard their parent get scalded, or break something...

I still hold that bullying is the worse crime.
And by saying 'pushing around' I meant: intimidation, tormenting, or as it was originally put 'picking on'.

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Thursday, April 15, 2004 4:24 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


I agree that as parents, we need to guide and direct our children, I think any parent will agree w/ that fact.

I don't believe, or see any statement to inforce the belief, that JustDave encouraged his daughter to swear at another person, or that he told his daughter he thought it acceptable behavior. He did mention he found it interesting she knew the phrase, but I think it was more out of his attachment to Firefly than any sort of shortcoming on his part as a parent.

I am sure that JustDave is as good a parent as any on this board. One should be careful not to read too much out of so simple a post at that which started this thread. Being critical of assumed faults in someone else's parenting style is unworthy of the posters on this board.

I think that as parents we are obligated to do all we can to guide our children and mold them into responsible adults who will contribute to society. I screen what my children watch, what they do, etc, but unfortunately I (and any other parent) can not be by their child's side 24 hours a day. They see and hear things in school, on the bus, on TV, and from friends and family that we may are not able to filter. We have to trust and encourage our children to talk to us about everything, let them know we will listen and care. Without communication, no one can effectively parent.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Thursday, April 15, 2004 6:17 AM

JASONZZZ



you are correct... "Ta ma de" would be considered a fragment in the grammatical sense. But it's always uttered standalone - sometimes leaving you with a feeling that it does indeed is spoken with ellipses at the end and leading to something else, other times it just is.

BTW, you seem to reference Putonghua and Mandarin as if there is a difference between them?


Quote:

Originally posted by Bourne:
FWIW(and hoping this post isn't redundant), "Ta ma de" is a fragment of an obscene phrase, much like saying "What the-" or "Son of a-". The uttered portion itself translates(literally) as "his/her mother's-"(in the possessive sense). I never got a straight answer from any of my Chinese friends as to what the unspoken portion was, but I think we can make a pretty good guess...mine: something decidedly anatomical. I base this on the fact that there's no shortage of similarly crude and personal anatomical references in Putonghua(mainland vernacular) that are considered unacceptable outside of the "nanzi han"(read: male-chauvinist-pig drinking buddies). But I did hear "Ta ma de" uttered in mixed company under circs of extreme frustration.

But then, my Chinese was never better than your average 4-year-old's, and now it's nearly all gone. Except for the dirty words, of course...





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Thursday, April 15, 2004 6:36 AM

JASONZZZ


Quote:

Originally posted by sasja:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Quote:

Originally posted by sasja:

While some things that are appropriate for adults aren't so for children, they're inappropriate for good reasons: alcohol and cigarettes (can cause damage at a crucial stage in a human's growth), sex (for obvious reasons) etc. Why would swearing fall in this category? It's not really harmful in any way I can see, and can be a very effective form of communication. Describe to yourself in general terms a situation where cursing would be appropriate - why couldn't a child find herself in such a situation? Hoping not to offend (too much ), could it be that you wish your children to be picture perfect little angels rather than growing persons, living their own - sometimes quite tough - lives?




No, people get to spend about 2/3 of their lives being adults. Kids should be kids (not necessarily perfect angels) - kids should have the time to grow up at their own pace and not have the world thrust upon them. Kids have it tough enough trying to understand everything else going on around them. Sooner or later, we all get to learn what the real world is about. If they get another couple of years of not having to think about or worry about the real world out there and get to play with their lego blocks a couple more years - fine.


I think this picture builds on the misconception that while children play with lego blocks their lives are full of bliss and they essentially have no worries. The real world is thrust upon them from day one, and rejection, hierarchy among playmates, bullying etc is everyday life even for pre school kids. Our job as parents is to help, support and guide them through these problems.




No arguments from me. But let them "play lego blocks". Their lives might not be utterly and completely be full of bliss, but it's more bliss than a world full of pornography, violence, swearing, killing, murdering, bullying, terrorizing, and Enron scamming - none of which they understand nor have the ability to grasp. One lesson at a time. They get to learn it with the correct basis. They learn it thru cooperative competition. They learn it when they get hurt themselves that sometimes people get hurt. They learn it when their pet plants die that living things expire. Build up on small lessons.

For now, the lego blocks are fun, and they don't murder each other, curse at each other, or sneak off and have sex ... yet...

Quote:

Originally posted by sasja:


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
That's another couple of years that we can spend building a better foundation for a couple of better people - maybe a bit more ready for the real world.


Will you drag your pre-toddlers by the arms and get them to run before they are even ready to crawl? After all, regular people walk everyday - and there isn't harm in walking. How about eating solid food when their digestive system isn't ready for it? Everybody eats solid food, so what's the harm in that? They are developmentally ready for it.


Err, no, they're exactly not developmentally ready for it. And that's why I wouldn't do it.




exactly... plenty of things kids aren't ready for... not just *physically* developmentally, but *mentally* as well... They need small experiences to build their ideas and concepts on. People have sex everyday. But would kids be ready to watch pornography?

Quote:

Originally posted by sasja:


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Some things kids might not be physically ready for, other things they aren't mentally ready for, yet other things they aren't psychologically ready for. Learning the right basis and the right options can make a world of a difference.
Why should every kid have to thrash around trying to figure out the right answer in every situation? Yes, I agree, kids should learn on their own. Again, give them some boundaries and recipes to start from. Not only can they learn quicker and figure things out better.


I perfectly agree. I don't see how this leads you to think that swearing is inappropriate for 10-years olds.




b/c there are plenty of other ways to learn to express themselves. b/c they haven't really faced to situations where it's necessary yet. If they swear everytime they get a odd look in their direction, what's the point in learning other ways to response to conflict? They already have a really "cool" way of doing it.



Quote:

Originally posted by sasja:


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Quote:

Originally posted by sasja:

Of course, too much swearing (for adults and children alike) will impair a person's ability to express herself and is frowned upon by society in general. Children need to learn the rules for swearing just like they need to learn a million other rules for interaction. If your child seems to have a problem in this respect, action needs to be taken. But it seems to me, from what we've heard, that Leita is quite on top of that.




Not sure what we are on top of... that she didn't have a way to express herself in that situation and ended up blurting out something she heard on TV without quite knowing what it is?




She did have a way of expressing herself. And (assuming the circumstances were such that they warranted a good cussin') an appropiate way. The fact that she usually never swears, but reserves it for special situations, like when she's bullied by a group of older children, tells me she has successfully grasped the social rules for cursing. A lot of children may resort to physical aggression in a situation like that. Strong language is there to provide another option. Doing it in a language foreign to her tormentors is just more elegant and effective - not to mention cool




That's one interpretation of it - and I don't know how you extrapolated all of that (reserving swearing for special occasions)... Would you also considered that she had no basis to deal with what was happening? and just blurted out something? Plenty of kids are *not* physical - heck, they might not even know *how* to be physical (although that's difficult to imagine considered the amount of violence in video games, TV, and movies that they can imitate off of)... IAC, there are plenty of options in between of:

A) not doing anything - being cowed
B) swearing
C) physical violence

Lots of room for dealing with and managing conflict situations in between A and B there.





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Thursday, April 15, 2004 7:02 AM

JASONZZZ


Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
I agree that as parents, we need to guide and direct our children, I think any parent will agree w/ that fact.

I don't believe, or see any statement to inforce the belief, that JustDave encouraged his daughter to swear at another person, or that he told his daughter he thought it acceptable behavior. He did mention he found it interesting she knew the phrase, but I think it was more out of his attachment to Firefly than any sort of shortcoming on his part as a parent.

I am sure that JustDave is as good a parent as any on this board. One should be careful not to read too much out of so simple a post at that which started this thread. Being critical of assumed faults in someone else's parenting style is unworthy of the posters on this board.




I wouldn't assume that JustDavid is a *good* parent or a *bad* parent from just a couple of posts. My comments were just inline with the situation in general. Folks seem to think it's real cool and read all sorts of things on how responsible and intelligent the entire deal is. I don't see it either way from the entire thing being described in just two posts.

Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:


I think that as parents we are obligated to do all we can to guide our children and mold them into responsible adults who will contribute to society. I screen what my children watch, what they do, etc, but unfortunately I (and any other parent) can not be by their child's side 24 hours a day. They see and hear things in school, on the bus, on TV, and from friends and family that we may are not able to filter. We have to trust and encourage our children to talk to us about everything, let them know we will listen and care. Without communication, no one can effectively parent.




Buddy, I can't agree with you more... The first 5 years (before preschool) is so damn critical to lay down the ground work - enough so that they are ready to face the horde of humanity in preschool - I can't imagine leaving them alone one second to hired help or the TV to raise them. It's unfortunate in the US (I think it's mostly only in the US - although it's probably spreading to other countries as well) that parents (very frequently) no longer have a family support structure nearby and that with the competition "with the Joneses" leads to the kind of economic structure we have - the need to have 2 or 3 jobs between the 2 parents (worst when one is single-parenting, which leads off to another discussion)... Children are simply no longer prepared for learning at school. We end up relegating most of our entire parenting responsibilities to (if not the hired help) the school system. No wonder our teachers are frazzled and tired.

After the first 5 years, you have to let go a little at a time and teach them to learn, teach them the right responses and behaviours, teach them to make decisions and let them be themselves a little at a time. One thing at a time, one lesson at a time, when they are ready to do one thing, let them do it and build on that.


Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:


"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."






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Thursday, April 15, 2004 8:33 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

Ghoulman,

something else I don't understand. People often congratulate each other as to "having a great kid".

You're still missreading me. The point of the sentence was that I felt the parent was doing something 'right'. The rest is all over the place sociologically and would take about 1000 words to begin *chuckle*. I think you're posting far faster than I so forgive me if I don't have answers or post with alacrity.

Obviously, I think it's just fine for kids to swear and cuss if it's appropriate (in another language just shows what a clever person this child is). I think this situation was appropriate. You might want to give your kids the 'turn the other cheek' lesson from Jesus but hey, look what happened to him.

Allegorically speaking...

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Thursday, April 15, 2004 10:00 AM

JASONZZZ



Ghoulman,

no biggie. each to their own.

Read my other post on Cowering, being cowed into submission. But basically, I believe neither in swearing nor cowing in this particular situation.

Numerous and far better options exist in between the rift of those two. And certainly no need to extend to physical violence. Although if there is no choice and it comes down to it, make sure that the other party is put to rest so the entire matter is settled as quickly and if possible as painlessly is possible.

I would have congratulate the kid if she had used one of the other smart aleck lines within the show - but my take here is swearing was either a "cop out" or just plain emotional reaction "blurted something out" - no matter than if she had belted them a good one.

Like I said before, for a small matter like this, the kid should have been better prepped and prepared to deal with the situatioin - far more civilized method. Other situation might call for swearing (I doubt it for a kid), but a kid should at least have enough confidence to *not* have to resort to swearing or physical threat or violence.
*But* do get them some preparation if it comes dow n to that, at least they would be confident in doing it - even if they shouldn't have to.


Quote:

Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

Ghoulman,

something else I don't understand. People often congratulate each other as to "having a great kid".

You're still missreading me. The point of the sentence was that I felt the parent was doing something 'right'. The rest is all over the place sociologically and would take about 1000 words to begin *chuckle*. I think you're posting far faster than I so forgive me if I don't have answers or post with alacrity.

Obviously, I think it's just fine for kids to swear and cuss if it's appropriate (in another language just shows what a clever person this child is). I think this situation was appropriate. You might want to give your kids the 'turn the other cheek' lesson from Jesus but hey, look what happened to him.

Allegorically speaking...





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Thursday, April 15, 2004 11:29 AM

JUSTDAVID


Just wanted to say that Sasja & Embers have both done an excellent job of describing my feelings on this topic, and I completely agree with Browncoat1 regarding courtesy to others on this board.

Lissa, about the name Leita(pronounced leetuh, BTW), thanks. My mom originally came up with the spelling for my older sister.


"Light it."

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Thursday, April 15, 2004 11:48 AM

SIGMANUNKI


I think that some people are blowing this out of proportion.

1) She's 10!
2) She *is* exploring how to handle different situations.
3) The dad *did* make sure she knew it was wrong and *not* to do it again.

So then, what the big deal? Life is a continual learning process and she *has* learned. Some will teach there kids one way, others other ways. It doesn't mean that any one method is wrong, just different. His method seems appropriate for that particular child and that does *not* mean it is for every child.

For instance when my sister and I were growing up our parents would typically send me to my room from something for a little while, but, if my sister did the same thing she would be grounded for afew days or at least get into more trouble.

On first glance it would seem unfair to do this, but, I learned from my mistakes *alot* quicker than she did. So, when I did something stupid I need less of a... correction, as I just "got it", but, she needed more of a... motivation.

Anything beyond this is just a comment on JustDavid's person. I think that the "WOO HOO" is questionable, but, IMHO that isn't the issue here. It how he is raising his child, and again, IMHO, I don't see any problem with it.

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

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Thursday, April 15, 2004 12:04 PM

EMBERS


I would like to add that I think JustDavid does deserve credit for raising his daughter well:

1. she told the truth to her teacher (when I was 10 I was fully capable of lying and saying that I had just said some nonsense words with no meaning if I was caught in that situation).

2. she was concerned about disappointing her Father, showing that she deeply cares about earning and keeping his respect.

Obviously this little girl shows respect to adults and has good principles...

and Leita is a lovely name

------------------
eta: and clearly the 'woo hoo' was for the benefit of the community here at the board, who would understand the kick he got out of his child being so knowledgable about 'Firefly'...

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Thursday, April 15, 2004 1:22 PM

JASONZZZ


Kids are the people of the future. Each person can either make a difference or be a drain. They are not *just* little pink things to tickle and to pass the time. There are fun times, but we can't nearly take it seriously enough.

We can *all* learn, not just kids. Even good parents can learn to be even better parents. Not saying that anyone is doing it perfectly. It's like making spaghetti. There are couple of ways of ruining it - aside from that, there are no "wrong" ways. As long as it doesn't come out a pink mush, most people will probably agree it's alright - nothing spectacular, but ok. Now, you and I might have found a few tid bits along the way to make it better. Why not share it? You might decide to use it next time, you might not... It's up to you. It's sort of like that.

However, if something is done wrong. Pasta is burned, sauce is vinegary or some other crap. I will take offense. Why? B/C, kids, unlike spaghetti, we *all* have to live with some day.

I am offering nothing more than, "Hey, try some italian sausage bits in the sauce, maybe it'll work out better"



Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I think that some people are blowing this out of proportion.

1) She's 10!
2) She *is* exploring how to handle different situations.
3) The dad *did* make sure she knew it was wrong and *not* to do it again.




I am not saying it's bad. I am saying maybe there could be more. Again, "Maybe a bit of Cumin? or a sprig of Rosemary" A suggestion. I am not going to come into your living room and grade you or make you do it my way.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


So then, what the big deal? Life is a continual learning process and she *has* learned. Some will teach there kids one way, others other ways. It doesn't mean that any one method is wrong, just different. His method seems appropriate for that particular child and that does *not* mean it is for every child.




I complete agree. Life is a continual learning process - for everyone. But it doesn't mean that we all have to go at it alone.

I don't think at any given time here I have assessed or judged JustDavid as wrong or inappropriate. That's not my intend and I don't believe I state anything in that way. Really, I tried to not assess the appropriateness at all. I stated plainly that I don't agree with kids 10 years old of age swearing - other than that...

IAC, like I said, it's an option that I see viable. I offered it - without judgement or assessment. I don't see any disrespect or uncivility in helping out a fellow human being - if something can be improved or you know a tidbit, I expect you to point it out, nothing less.



Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


For instance when my sister and I were growing up our parents would typically send me to my room from something for a little while, but, if my sister did the same thing she would be grounded for afew days or at least get into more trouble.

On first glance it would seem unfair to do this, but, I learned from my mistakes *alot* quicker than she did. So, when I did something stupid I need less of a... correction, as I just "got it", but, she needed more of a... motivation.




I don't see anything here as a comment on JustDavid's person. lmk if you really think so.

I can see how people can see a little commenting or criticism and mistaking it as a judgement (and who really cares what another person thinks or judges you). Everyone is proud of their kids and everyone thinks their kid are the smartest/handsomest/prettiest/tallest/fastest/greatest.
Nothing should be further from the truth - as far as the parent's perception goes. But what we do is something different all together. What we do each very moment changes a little person's entire life. We can all do better, and that doesn't happen if we shut out criticisms and tidbits from others.

It's a community, I assumed that people come to be a part of one and not to go at it alone.




Quote:



Anything beyond this is just a comment on JustDavid's person. I think that the "WOO HOO" is questionable, but, IMHO that isn't the issue here. It how he is raising his child, and again, IMHO, I don't see any problem with it.

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River





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Thursday, April 15, 2004 6:57 PM

BOURNE


Quote:

you are correct... "Ta ma de" would be considered a fragment in the grammatical sense. But it's always uttered standalone - sometimes leaving you with a feeling that it does indeed is spoken with ellipses at the end and leading to something else, other times it just is.


Aside from the commonplace truncation of obscenities in English (e.g. "son of a-") which are clearly bitten off, there are far less obvious examples that appear to be "standalone" words/phrases, too. "Chicken" - as an accusation of cowardice - is one, as it was originally "chickenshit." Still is, in less polite company, though the non-scatological derivative is often accompanied by clucking noises, as if the reference were to the chicken itself.

People are funny that way.

Quote:

BTW, you seem to reference Putonghua and Mandarin as if there is a difference between them?


Yup. In the likely event of someone reading this who knows more about Chinese languages than I do, I wanted to be precise. As I alluded to parenthetically, "Putonghua"(literally "common speech") refers to the common spoken vernacular of mainland China. It is Mandarin, but I don't know if the slang, colloquialisms, etc used in Taiwan and other places are exactly the same as in the PRC. That phrase is probably the same in Taiwan - they've only been separated for 50-odd years - but I don't know for sure.

Sorry everybody else, if this was a little too far OT.

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Thursday, April 15, 2004 7:34 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Kids are the people of the future. Each person can either make a difference or be a drain.


To be nit picky, there are those that are neither.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
We can *all* learn, not just kids. Even good parents can learn to be even better parents. Not saying that anyone is doing it perfectly.


True, everyone *should* learn throughout there entire life. And all do to one extent or another.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
It's like making spaghetti. There are couple of ways of ruining it - aside from that, there are no "wrong" ways. As long as it doesn't come out a pink mush, most people will probably agree it's alright - nothing spectacular, but ok.


Well, with todays society I'd say there are a whole bunch of ways to mess it up.

But, to your "nothing spectacular, but ok" comment. I disagree. That is too much an area of opinion. I mean, how you define ok or spectacular would differ greatly from the next guy. It really depends on the family/child's situation.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Now, you and I might have found a few tid bits along the way to make it better. Why not share it? You might decide to use it next time, you might not... It's up to you. It's sort of like that.


You seem to think that I meant you when I posted. I never meant this to be an attack on you. My post was more of a comment that there was too much opinion going back and forth and things were kind of getting away from the basic facts of this particular situation.

If someone wanted to talk about parenting in general, IMHO, they should create a thread specifically for that.

I don't really like this spaghetti analogy. Too far off from what we are talking about. For me anyway.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
I stated plainly that I don't agree with kids 10 years old of age swearing - other than that...


True, they shouldn't, but, they will. And there isn't anything that any of us can do about it. We can only - when it happens - deal with it appropriately. Which, IMHO, was done here.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
...if something can be improved or you know a tidbit, I expect you to point it out, nothing less.


And I you.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
It's a community, I assumed that people come to be a part of one and not to go at it alone.


I don't disagree one bit.

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

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Thursday, April 15, 2004 7:39 PM

JASONZZZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Bourne:


Quote:

BTW, you seem to reference Putonghua and Mandarin as if there is a difference between them?


Yup. In the likely event of someone reading this who knows more about Chinese languages than I do, I wanted to be precise. As I alluded to parenthetically, "Putonghua"(literally "common speech") refers to the common spoken vernacular of mainland China. It is Mandarin, but I don't know if the slang, colloquialisms, etc used in Taiwan and other places are exactly the same as in the PRC. That phrase is probably the same in Taiwan - they've only been separated for 50-odd years - but I don't know for sure.

Sorry everybody else, if this was a little too far OT.



I have never heard anyone make that particular distinction between the two before. It's always been in reference to the same thing to me - as in used interchangebly. Of course, Chinese from China (reference to both Mainland and Taiwan) would use "Putonghua" to reference especially the spoken language and "Zhongwen" for general reference to the entire language (but probably more times the written portion, hmm.. "Hanzi") - Mandarin is the English reference to the same deal.

I don't know, last I heard, the newest generation of folks from Taiwan are claiming they are *not* Chinese, but in fact, Taiwanese. Oddest thing to me, since the older generation has always claimed they were Chinese and the aboriginals are the Taiwanese folks. I don't know what these people are thinking anymore.





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Thursday, April 15, 2004 8:16 PM

BOURNE


Quote:

I have never heard anyone make that particular distinction between the two before. It's always been in reference to the same thing to me - as in used interchangebly. Of course, Chinese from China (reference to both Mainland and Taiwan) would use Putonghua for the spoken language and Zhongwen for general reference to the entire language (but probably more times the written portion) - Mandarin is the English reference to the same deal.


You're right, except that ROC Chinese refer to "their" Mandarin as "guoyu" ("the national tongue"). Superficial usages aside, exactly the same language; the only meaningful distinction is political. I remember restraining my eyes from rolling when a teacher explained this to me. Kinda like renaming sauerkraut "liberty cabbage" during WWI.

Still, the Taiwanese are in a tough spot, politically. If I walked a mile in their shoes, I might wanna forget the past, too.


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Thursday, April 15, 2004 9:12 PM

JASONZZZ


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Kids are the people of the future. Each person can either make a difference or be a drain.


To be nit picky, there are those that are neither.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
We can *all* learn, not just kids. Even good parents can learn to be even better parents. Not saying that anyone is doing it perfectly.


True, everyone *should* learn throughout there entire life. And all do to one extent or another.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
It's like making spaghetti. There are couple of ways of ruining it - aside from that, there are no "wrong" ways. As long as it doesn't come out a pink mush, most people will probably agree it's alright - nothing spectacular, but ok.


Well, with todays society I'd say there are a whole bunch of ways to mess it up.

But, to your "nothing spectacular, but ok" comment. I disagree. That is too much an area of opinion. I mean, how you define ok or spectacular would differ greatly fro




I don't think we have to *count* the ways. I should have used numerous instead of couple - people seem to wanna count a couple as exactly two. ...

So you would eat pink mush offered as spaghetti? don't understand where that grey area is. There is no question that a whole bunch of folks would declare their kids spectacular - but are they really? We might not agree on what spectacular is, but we can probably get some roundabout general consensus on what's "not spectacular, but ok"... hence the spaghetti analogy. If you charge $25 for a plate of spaghetti and people are still buying it - I would believe that you have people agreeing what it is.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Now, you and I might have found a few tid bits along the way to make it better. Why not share it? You might decide to use it next time, you might not... It's up to you. It's sort of like that.


You seem to think that I meant you when I posted. I never meant this to be an attack on you. My post was more of a comment that there was too much opinion going back and forth and things were kind of getting away from the basic facts of this particular situation.




No, not an attack. Since the reply was to me and the word "you" was used alot. I just seem to gather that as the passages were directed at me.

I do agree that it is getting off the basic facts, particularly the celebration and over-interpretation of what was going on. As I have suggested, there are many ways to "over-interpret" the child's reaction. Other have offered theirs.

Quote:



If someone wanted to talk about parenting in general, IMHO, they should create a thread specifically for that.

I don't really like this spaghetti analogy. Too far off from what we are talking about. For me anyway.




Always try to offer a plausible analogy that doesn't carry the same emotions. Cooking a meal and raising kids aren't that far off - Some people cook a gourmet meal and have great recipes to share, some others come up with results that they are absolutely proud of but others have ambivalence about. At the end of the day, we all have to eat it and live with it - otherwise you go hungry.

Quote:



Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
I stated plainly that I don't agree with kids 10 years old of age swearing - other than that...


True, they shouldn't, but, they will. And there isn't anything that any of us can do about it. We can only - when it happens - deal with it appropriately. Which, IMHO, was done here.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
...if something can be improved or you know a tidbit, I expect you to point it out, nothing less.


And I you.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
It's a community, I assumed that people come to be a part of one and not to go at it alone.


I don't disagree one bit.

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River




Have to run off to work now, Ciao Bella!


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Friday, April 16, 2004 10:47 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
So you would eat pink mush offered as spaghetti?


Of course not. And I still don't like that analogy.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
don't understand where that grey area is.


One parent would say that there kid is spectacular if they completed high school. The other might be just ok or even a disappointment if they only "earn" a few hundred thousand a year.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
If you charge $25 for a plate of spaghetti and people are still buying it - I would believe that you have people agreeing what it is.


Here is where your analogy breaks down. If you have a kid and screw it up. No-one will disagree if it's a kid or not.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
No, not an attack. Since the reply was to me and the word "you" was used alot.


I'll try to be more careful when I post when I'm tired next time


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Cooking a meal and raising kids aren't that far off...


You and I clearly disagree here.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
...otherwise you go hungry.


What does this refer to. One cannot remove themselves from society no matter how much they try. That is unless they go to some island or the middle of the Amazon.

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

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Friday, April 16, 2004 2:02 PM

JASONZZZ


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
...otherwise you go hungry.


What does this refer to. One cannot remove themselves from society no matter how much they try. That is unless they go to some island or the middle of the Amazon.

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River



Exactly, that's where my comments on how another parent raises their kids have possible eventual repercussions to the rest of society. We are all interconnected some how. So it's not exactly just one person's business on how one raise their kids, each person really has a broader responsibility beyond the basic food, shelter, clothing. Beyond even education, morals, social skills. But an effective societal member - not just a nice or intelligent person to have around. Someone who adds value - we can all add value in our own way, but just not someone who clearly is a drain.





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Friday, April 16, 2004 2:17 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Exactly, that's where my comments on how another parent raises their kids have possible eventual repercussions to the rest of society...


To be fair. It's not only the parents responsibility to raise the child proper.

The parents typically only really have influence up to the terrible teens. Then it's mainly the friends that influence the child.

It is up to the child at some point as well. I know that my value system is very different from my parents. I have always tended to side more with the Eastern Religions where my parents are Protestant. My parents also consider money *far* more highly than I do. I could go on.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
But an effective societal member - not just a nice or intelligent person to have around. Someone who adds value - we can all add value in our own way, but just not someone who clearly is a drain.


Well, wouldn't a nice and/or an intelligent person be a contributing member of society by default?

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

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