GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

*Claire Wolfe*! likes Firefly!

POSTED BY: JUSTME
UPDATED: Saturday, April 24, 2004 07:14
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Thursday, April 22, 2004 3:13 AM

JUSTME


Claire Wolfe, for those who don't know, is one of the premiere libertarian writers (author of "Don't Shoot the Bastards (yet)" among others). On her blog today she mentions that she is now a Firefly fan, having recently seen the first 3 eps on DVD. The entry is here: http://www.clairewolfe.com/blog.html

(Just ignore her comments about Kaylee, some people just have a bad case of Scotty worship ;-)

Shiny!
JustMe


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Thursday, April 22, 2004 3:21 AM

JUSTME


Oops! I should have said she was the author of "101 Things to Do 'til the Revolution" which is the original and more famous (infamous?) book. DSTB(Y) is the sequel/update.

JustMe

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Thursday, April 22, 2004 3:39 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Very nice write up Claire did for the DVD set so far. I may not agree w/ her political leanings, but we can agree on what constitutes a good show.

Hopefully those that visit her site and forums will check out the set based on her recommendation and buy the set and see the movie.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Thursday, April 22, 2004 4:29 AM

SOUTHERNMERC


To respond about Kaylee "intuiting" the mechanics:

Kaylee grew up around her father's repair shop (this can be inferred from the ep "Out of Gas"), so most likely daddy was showing his little girl the insides of an engine since she was crawling. So for her, she just "gets" engines, even though her level of experience and education are on a highly competent level. Since she doesn't think about it in professional terms or diction, she has trouble expressing exactly what she see's is wrong to others (also in "Out of Gas").

The more I hear about all the craziness the govt. is cooking up (I had a friend tell me he had to take off his shoes so they could be searched before he could board a plane...WTF?), the more I think I need to look into this Libertarian thing. Guess I'll do a little research.

Anyway, always nice to hear a positive voice about the best show in the 'verse.


Jayne: "See, Vera? You get dressed up, you get taken someplace fun!"

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Thursday, April 22, 2004 5:23 AM

BLAZINGBUG


Quote:

Originally posted by SouthernMerc:
The more I hear about all the craziness the govt. is cooking up (I had a friend tell me he had to take off his shoes so they could be searched before he could board a plane...WTF?)...



Guess you don't know about the Shoe-Bombs?

And no, I'm not kidding if you don't know.

"Wacky fun..."

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Thursday, April 22, 2004 6:38 AM

HKCAVALIER


Where does it end?

"Passengers did not seem to mind. 'I would take off my clothes if I have to,' one passenger said."

At what point do we accept that we cannot control our lives in this way? We cannot achieve the "safety" that we crave.

Is there no truth to the idea that if we treat the world as our enemy, the world will oblige?

Here's my plan to make the world safer: Spanish language in high school mandatory. Farsi and Persian Studies in every school. Islamic studies in every school. Government funding for exchange student programs with all friendly Islamic nations. Just a few programs to promote respect and connection for and with the world would go a long way towards making the world an actually safer place. Just getting Americans to learn a language other than our own would be a freakin' miracle. Bush's cronies are talking about a 40 year process. What could we accomplish if we spent the next 40 years trying to understand one another instead of trying to scare our enemies into submission?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, April 22, 2004 7:44 AM

SAMURAIX47


I would have to take issue with her about Kaylee's girlishness and her ability to handle engineering.

Quoting from her blog:
Quote:

The only element that didn't ring true to me was this little gamin girly they made the ship's mechanic. She sort of "intuits" the machinery of the ship -- not with alien powers, but just with a loveable girliness. I didn't believe it for one second, and pictured real mechanics groaning at the idiocy. The actress herself is completely charming. But really -- as an engineer? Bring back Scottie! But otherwise, don't change a thing.


I know at least a dozen female engineers from a reputable engineering college in upstate NY, many of them are just as cute and feminine as Kaylee. Women are quite capable of comprehending engineering and mechanics.


Jaymes

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Thursday, April 22, 2004 7:47 AM

BADGERSHAT


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
... Here's my plan to make the world safer: Spanish language in high school mandatory. Farsi and Persian Studies in every school.

******Islamic studies in every school. Government funding for exchange student programs with all friendly Islamic nations.******

Just a few programs to promote respect and connection for and with the world would go a long way towards making the world an actually safer place. Just getting Americans to learn a language other than our own would be a freakin' miracle. Bush's cronies are talking about a 40 year process. What could we accomplish if we spent the next 40 years trying to understand one another instead of trying to scare our enemies into submission?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.



... here's a question--How do we make the determination that one Islamic nation is "Friendly" and another is not? Yes there are "moderate" Islamics, but the general concensus is, America is hated (you ever hear that old joke, how do you tell if an Arab is a moderate Arab... he's the one who ran out of ammunition... not a very nice joke, but I think very apt in terms of describing the overall American view of Islamic nations)

By the way, The Hat does NOT condone that particular joke, it was posted as a means of example, so please don't start loading my apples with Griswalds...


--The Hat

***************************
"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne

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Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:10 AM

BLAZINGBUG


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Here's my plan to make the world safer: Islamic studies in every school.



I got a question too. Do they have to have Christianity studies in their schools?

Sorry to be a bit sarcastic, but it's not Americans who need fixing. And despite what you think the next statement will be, it's not Arabs either. It's the human race.

We're tribal; we define ourselves by our differences. We've been that way for millenia, and it has never changed.

And it never will.

"Wacky fun..."

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Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:48 AM

SOUTHERNMERC


Oh, I have complete faith that humanity will come together. Not in spite of, but BECAUSE of our tribal nature. The instant we find other civilizations and contact them, we will be too busy hating them to hate each other anymore.

Sad really.

Jayne: "See, Vera? You get dressed up, you get taken someplace fun!"

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Thursday, April 22, 2004 9:14 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by BlazingBug:
Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Here's my plan to make the world safer: Islamic studies in every school.



I got a question too. Do they have to have Christianity studies in their schools?

Sorry to be a bit sarcastic, but it's not Americans who need fixing. And despite what you think the next statement will be, it's not Arabs either. It's the human race.

We're tribal; we define ourselves by our differences. We've been that way for millenia, and it has never changed.

And it never will.

"Wacky fun..."



BlazingBug is right, sadly so.

It is the entire human race that needs fixing, not just one nationality, religion or political party.

Since the beginning of history man has been tribal, separating himself by geography, rituals, customs, religion, politics, color, appearance, goals, etc. In all the time man has walked the earth this has not changed, and I agree w/ SouthernMerc that it will take an outside influence to make us set aside our differences and work for the common good.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Thursday, April 22, 2004 9:21 AM

HOWDYROCKERBABY1


Quote:

Originally posted by BlazingBug:
Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Here's my plan to make the world safer: Islamic studies in every school.



I got a question too. Do they have to have Christianity studies in their schools?

Sorry to be a bit sarcastic, but it's not Americans who need fixing. And despite what you think the next statement will be, it's not Arabs either. It's the human race.

We're tribal; we define ourselves by our differences. We've been that way for millenia, and it has never changed.

And it never will.

"Wacky fun..."




It's not Americans who need fixing its AMERICA. The fact is we should be worrying about all our own problems before we try fixing others. Yes everybody needs to learn tolerance and its not just us. The fact is, even if all those classes talked above would be allowed at schools, how would schools afford them? it would require lots of money to have correct teachers involved in those classes, money that our schools just don't have. And it doesn't matter what "Friendly Arab" country somebody comes from, it doesn't define just how "friendly" the individual is, if everybody acted like the country would want the KKK would never have existed, which just goes to show we live in a scary world and there isn't any one thing we can do to fix it,

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"Did I hear something about black market beagles? They have smallish droppings."
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

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Thursday, April 22, 2004 10:50 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I'm more and more the Libertarian as I grow older and wiser ( laugh ). While I'm all for more folks looking into the Libertarian party, and I see MANY similarities with Mal and his contempt for big Gov't., I'm currently at odds w/ the platform the L.P. here in the US when it comes to foreign policy. Regardless, more positive Firefly exposure and Pub.Relations , the better.

Remember, you are a member of the largest minority group on the planet - the INDIVIDUAL.



" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. Worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, April 22, 2004 5:36 PM

ZOID


howdyrockerbaby1 (in response to various others) wrote:
Quote:

The fact is we should be worrying about all our own problems before we try fixing others.


Agreed, wholeheartedly.

Here's an alternative solution: take a tip from history, for a change. Emulate the British. As the Brits did in the American War of Independence, declare the war in Iraq lost. Simple as that. Just declare, "We lost, and we'll be toddling off now. Enjoy your hard-won victory. We salute you, and will stay out of your affairs."

Immediately remove all American troops and other representatives of the US government from Iraq -- maybe Saudi Arabia, too.

Take the taxpayer dollars saved from supporting a standing military presence in those countries... And invest it in development and infrastructure retooling for hydrogen fuel cell-powered automobiles and other transportation. Explain this to the American taxpayer as "Fighting the Fuel War at Home" or something suitably catchy, but not directly attributable to foreign policy. The published goal: to be totally free of dependence on foreign fuel sources within ten years. Place an emphasis on this national goal on par with WWII's rationing/recycling and JFK's Moon mission efforts. Ad campaign, "You Are Doing Your Part" and government subsidies for fuel cell car buyers.

Cultivate a pseudo-isolationist stance from the rest of the world and its problems. Remain at a safe distance from destructive and hateful entities. Expel destructive and hateful entities from our borders. Gladly extend a helping hand to those who request it; bugger off as soon as they bite it, and never return. Invest money and own businesses in the Middle East, hire no Americans to work there.

After a successful conversion to a benign and renewable fuel policy, freely share the technology with the rest of the world, while turning full attention to poverty in America. Sadly watch the news media reports as the entire Middle East switches to a diet of sand and petroleum-based foods (see 'bugger off and never return', above)...


Mournfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River and me was best friends, back then. I named my first-born daughter after her. 'Course, you can't swing a dead cat 'round here on I-Day without hittin' a River..."

- Kaywinnit Tam, wife and mother of 6, A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Thursday, April 22, 2004 5:52 PM

KERNELM


Quote:

Originally posted by SamuraiX47:
I would have to take issue with her about Kaylee's girlishness and her ability to handle engineering.

Quoting from her blog:
Quote:

The only element that didn't ring true to me was this little gamin girly they made the ship's mechanic. She sort of "intuits" the machinery of the ship -- not with alien powers, but just with a loveable girliness. I didn't believe it for one second, and pictured real mechanics groaning at the idiocy. The actress herself is completely charming. But really -- as an engineer? Bring back Scottie! But otherwise, don't change a thing.


I know at least a dozen female engineers from a reputable engineering college in upstate NY, many of them are just as cute and feminine as Kaylee. Women are quite capable of comprehending engineering and mechanics.
Jaymes


Her problem is exactly that Kaylee _didn't_ go to any reputable engineering college (or any kind of formal training about ships at all, as implied in OOG). Whether you believe someone can "intuit" the workings of a fairly complex ship is up to you, but she certainly wasn't implying anything about the ability of women to be engineers.

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Thursday, April 22, 2004 6:32 PM

SHINY


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
Immediately remove all American troops and other representatives of the US government from Iraq -- maybe Saudi Arabia, too.



I agree we need to pull out, but I'm not convinced that an immediate cold-turkey withdrawl won't cause more problems than a phased approach.

Quote:


Take the taxpayer dollars saved from supporting a standing military presence in those countries... And invest it in development and infrastructure retooling for hydrogen fuel cell-powered automobiles and other transportation. Explain this to the American taxpayer as "Fighting the Fuel War at Home" or something suitably catchy, but not directly attributable to foreign policy. The published goal: to be totally free of dependence on foreign fuel sources within ten years. Place an emphasis on this national goal on par with WWII's rationing/recycling and JFK's Moon mission efforts. Ad campaign, "You Are Doing Your Part" and government subsidies for fuel cell car buyers.



Now *that* I can whole-heartedly agree with!!! "Screw the Saudis -- Support Solar!", "No War for Oil! Buy Hybrid Electrics!", "Undercut terrorist funding! Build a home windmill!" :)

Please help Haken keep this site running by occasionally clicking on some of the sponsored ad links on the side of the page!

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Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:03 PM

JARED


Quote:

Originally posted by KernelM:
Her problem is exactly that Kaylee _didn't_ go to any reputable engineering college (or any kind of formal training about ships at all, as implied in OOG). Whether you believe someone can "intuit" the workings of a fairly complex ship is up to you, but she certainly wasn't implying anything about the ability of women to be engineers.



i cant talk for mechanics but dare to say that hardware and the workings of computers a halfway complex, too. and its sad to realize that you learned more in 10 years of just intensively using it and getting to know it than in 6 years of university. sure, you dont know all the fancy academic terms, but you develop a feeling for it. if my machine is acting strange im not digging out old and scripts (usually too abstract and theoretical to be of any use anyway) about operating systems or computers. you just feel where the problem probably is. so i have no problem believing that someone growing up around engines and mechanics also develops that kind of intuition.

at least i learned a lot by doing in my spare time and wasted tons of time with studies at university (but hey, now can i use fancy terminology to describe the complexity of an algorithm. instead of "forget it, do it that way and we will wait for the result til christmas" i can say "ohh.. but its np complete and has a complexity of O(n^10)".. guess what mal wouldnt want to hear ,-) )

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Thursday, April 22, 2004 10:58 PM

COWARD


Quote:

Cultivate a pseudo-isolationist stance from the rest of the world and its problems. Remain at a safe distance from destructive and hateful entities. Expel destructive and hateful entities from our borders. Gladly extend a helping hand to those who request it; bugger off as soon as they bite it, and never return. Invest money and own businesses in the Middle East, hire no Americans to work there.


If I'm not very much mistaken the US adopted a similar policy during the '20s (it's a while back we learned this in school), they quit the UN's predecessor (can't remember what it was called) and became totally desinterested in the rest of the world, and remained so until Pearl Harbour. This gave one Adolf Hitler an excellent opportuninity to conduct his warmongering (he could have easily been stopped in 1935-37).

I am not saying the US should continue on it's current course of foreign policy, the war on Iraq and to a lesser extent the war on Afghanistan were unjustified. But withdrawing their troups from Iraq now (like Spain and Honduras did) is just simply unacceptable. I stood on the streets and demonstrated against this war, simply because I predicted that America (especially on her own) would not be able to instate a stable government in Iraq after the war. They weren't, and now now that they are realizing it, it's too late. Saddam may have ruled with an iron fist, but even that is better than complete Anarchy or an radical Islamistic state. What the world needs is more understanding and respect. It would have been perfectly possible to remove Saddam without military action, it would have been possible to make the Iraqi people like the US.

Now you've made your mistakes it's time to correct them, and running away isn't going to solve anything.

Coward

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Friday, April 23, 2004 2:23 AM

ZOID


Coward:

I wrote many parts of this in ironic fashion, in an attempt to point out that while many people vehemently disapprove of the war effort, those same people still want 'peacekeepers' dying there. Having served 14 years of active military duty, I believe the US military has no business being policemen(persons?). It is a misuse of military power; and an abuse of the citizens who volunteer to risks their lives for their country, who now must sit around with targets painted on them when there is no organized government left to defeat.

This job should be turned over to the UN immediately (if they want it or have the nerve for it), but we should be bringing our men and women home for good, in any case. I know some people want to brace up the area and provide stability, ya-da, ya-da; but the US is clearly too hated for that job, and the US soldier is wrong for any job other than killing enemies. It's a job they do better than anyone else in the world (and I couldn't be prouder of the fact). As policemen and 'peacekeepers', they are forced to stand in the open, in broken ranks, and not fire on suspected enemies until fired on first. We're sending them to the slaughter.

Others fear that if we pull out, Germany, France and Russia in particular will rush in and snatch up all the oil in the region. Please see my stance on hydrogen fuel cell cars. How many millions of dollars per day are we spending on the war effort? Put that into weaning ourselves from petrochemicals for the next ten years, rather than having a standing army in the Middle East. Let the French, Germans and Russians -- or the entire UN for that matter -- try their hand stabilizing the area. I seriously doubt they'll have substantially more luck.

The Middle East has been crazy, if not downright murderous and evil, since at least the 1940's. I don't suspect it will get any better, and I always believe it's the best thing for everyone involved to distance yourself from crazy, destructive people and countries.

Oh, and if they attack us again, we go in lickety-split and whack 'em again; then pack up quietly and come back home. Do that enough times -- no rhetoric, just action -- and they'll start picking on weaker Westerners. I don't go for full isolationism: I like T. Roosevelt's "Speak softly and carry a big stick" policy.


Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River and me was best friends, back then. I named my first-born daughter after her. 'Course, you can't swing a dead cat 'round here on I-Day without hittin' a River..."

- Kaywinnit Tam, wife and mother of 6, A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Friday, April 23, 2004 2:57 AM

COWARD


Zoid:

I agree with most of what you said in your most recent post. Sorry I didn't get the irony in your first post. The UN should indeed take over the job (it should have in the first place (and it would have if the US had been more patient)). As it is you might be right and the US may be doing more harm than good, in which case they should withdraw. We just don't know, and it's probably a decision the people on ste should take.

Quote:

Oh, and if they attack us again, we go in lickety-split and whack 'em again; then pack up quietly and come back home. Do that enough times -- no rhetoric, just action -- and they'll start picking on weaker Westerners. I don't go for full isolationism: I like T. Roosevelt's "Speak softly and carry a big stick" policy.


Not so sure whether you're being serious here, but shouldn't "we westeners" be working together? After all we still are in a strong military alliance. I also don't think terrorism will decrease because of military action, quite the opposite in fact, the more the US demonstrates its superiority the more pissed of everyone else will become. Terrorists aren't envious of your freedom, they're envious of your power, and terrorism is the only way they can still spite you.

Coward

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Friday, April 23, 2004 3:27 AM

SAMURAIX47


Quote:

Originally posted by KernelM:
Her problem is exactly that Kaylee _didn't_ go to any reputable engineering college (or any kind of formal training about ships at all, as implied in OOG). Whether you believe someone can "intuit" the workings of a fairly complex ship is up to you, but she certainly wasn't implying anything about the ability of women to be engineers.



I see Ms. Wolfe's comment to be completely gender biased in it's supposition... not about Kaylee's education. She questions her ability to 'intuit' engineering because she is a girl. Her characterization regarding Kaylee's girliness and by saying "Bring Back Scottie!" and "real mechanics groaning" show that she has no concept of women as engineers.

Jaymes

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Friday, April 23, 2004 5:08 AM

KERNELM


Quote:

Originally posted by Jared:
Quote:

Originally posted by KernelM:
Her problem is exactly that Kaylee _didn't_ go to any reputable engineering college (or any kind of formal training about ships at all, as implied in OOG). Whether you believe someone can "intuit" the workings of a fairly complex ship is up to you, but she certainly wasn't implying anything about the ability of women to be engineers.



i cant talk for mechanics but dare to say that hardware and the workings of computers a halfway complex, too. and its sad to realize that you learned more in 10 years of just intensively using it and getting to know it than in 6 years of university. sure, you dont know all the fancy academic terms, but you develop a feeling for it. if my machine is acting strange im not digging out old and scripts (usually too abstract and theoretical to be of any use anyway) about operating systems or computers. you just feel where the problem probably is. so i have no problem believing that someone growing up around engines and mechanics also develops that kind of intuition.

at least i learned a lot by doing in my spare time and wasted tons of time with studies at university (but hey, now can i use fancy terminology to describe the complexity of an algorithm. instead of "forget it, do it that way and we will wait for the result til christmas" i can say "ohh.. but its np complete and has a complexity of O(n^10)".. guess what mal wouldnt want to hear ,-) )


This is going off-topic now, but you don't study computer science or engineering just to know how to program or fix computers. You can go to any number of technical schools and get a much more practical education about computer software and hardware. CS and CE is for people who want to actually really understand how computers work, and innovate on that. I remember scoffing at big-O notation in high school too, but I learned its importance in determining the relative efficiency of algorithms. The reason everything is abstract is that you should be able to apply that knowledge as the circumstances fit. Tie it down and it becomes obsolete.

I certainly can't think of too many basic programming constructs and concepts that came from people without a deep understanding of the theoretical underpinnings of computer science. Quicksort, OOP, structured programming, polymorphism, etc etc.

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Friday, April 23, 2004 6:02 AM

KNIBBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
Others fear that if we pull out, Germany, France and Russia in particular will rush in and snatch up all the oil in the region. Please see my stance on hydrogen fuel cell cars. How many millions of dollars per day are we spending on the war effort? Put that into weaning ourselves from petrochemicals for the next ten years


Lovely idea, Zoid. Unfortunately, we're in Iraq for two main reasons.

1. Oil. Halliburton wishes to control billions of dollars worth of oil and all the goodies that go with it.

2. Religious Fundamentalists. We have a bunch of Dominionists bent on creating their own "radical christian theocracy" pulling the strings of the smirky rat bastard liar in the White House who thinks he hears the voice of God singing in his morning bowl of rice krispies.

Their new domino theory involves the righteous army of the U.S. cleansing the Middle East or something equally horrific.

You think Reavers are scary ... watch out for Dominionists.

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/ConstitutionRestorationAct.htm

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/cor/dominion.htm

http://www.betterworld.com/getreallist/article.php?story=2004022916161
044


http://reformed-theology.org/html/issue11/authority_compared.htm

http://www.piney.com/CultSigns.html


"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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Friday, April 23, 2004 6:22 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Zoid wrote:

Quote:

I wrote many parts of this in ironic fashion, in an attempt to point out that while many people vehemently disapprove of the war effort, those same people still want 'peacekeepers' dying there. Having served 14 years of active military duty, I believe the US military has no business being policemen(persons?). It is a misuse of military power; and an abuse of the citizens who volunteer to risks their lives for their country, who now must sit around with targets painted on them when there is no organized government left to defeat.


I agree Zoid. The same people that clamor for the U.S. to pull out, who call us "invaders", and who disfigure the corpse of American citizens, are the ones who cry the loudest for our aid when they need something. I guess circumstances dictate their willingness to suffer our presence.

I do think it is a misuse of the U.S. military to try to fit them into the role of police or peacekeepers, that is what the U.N. is supposed to be for in instances like this one.

Quote:

This job should be turned over to the UN immediately (if they want it or have the nerve for it), but we should be bringing our men and women home for good, in any case. I know some people want to brace up the area and provide stability, ya-da, ya-da; but the US is clearly too hated for that job, and the US soldier is wrong for any job other than killing enemies. It's a job they do better than anyone else in the world (and I couldn't be prouder of the fact). As policemen and 'peacekeepers', they are forced to stand in the open, in broken ranks, and not fire on suspected enemies until fired on first. We're sending them to the slaughter.


I agree, the U.N. should do this job, but so far they have not shown any interest in doing the job. It seems that organization can never come to a decision on what to do when a need arises. Too many conflicting agendas of its members if you ask my opinion, too many people putting the interest of their countries before the needs of the world. That is why the U.N. is not very effective.

I think it is wrong for U.S. soldiers to try to stabilize a country whose people want us to leave. If that is what they want, we should pull out. When unrest starts up, and it will, and the various power mongers try to jump in and carve out pieces for themselves, let's see if the U.N. steps up and settles things.

Quote:

Others fear that if we pull out, Germany, France and Russia in particular will rush in and snatch up all the oil in the region. Please see my stance on hydrogen fuel cell cars. How many millions of dollars per day are we spending on the war effort? Put that into weaning ourselves from petrochemicals for the next ten years, rather than having a standing army in the Middle East. Let the French, Germans and Russians -- or the entire UN for that matter -- try their hand stabilizing the area. I seriously doubt they'll have substantially more luck.


Personally I think our reliance on foreign oil has hobbled us for too long. We have the American automotive industry, and petroleum companies to thank for part of that weakness. The auto makers refuse to look at more economic alternatives to gas powered engines, and oil companies don't want us cutting oil imports as it will hit them square in the wallet. If they have a surplus because the U.S. is buying less, oil prices will drop all over the globe and the petroleum fat cats will be out some serious money.

In the long run it only makes sense to eliminate our need for foreign oil, and begin implementing plans for alternatives to gasoline engines. It will be better for the people, the enviroment, and the world.

Quote:

The Middle East has been crazy, if not downright murderous and evil, since at least the 1940's. I don't suspect it will get any better, and I always believe it's the best thing for everyone involved to distance yourself from crazy, destructive people and countries.


The Middle East has always been a hot bed. Religious extremists and intolerance will keep those fires burning until the end of time.

Quote:

Oh, and if they attack us again, we go in lickety-split and whack 'em again; then pack up quietly and come back home. Do that enough times -- no rhetoric, just action -- and they'll start picking on weaker Westerners. I don't go for full isolationism: I like T. Roosevelt's "Speak softly and carry a big stick" policy.


I do not think isolationism is the way to go, as it did us no good in WWII, but I do feel we should pull out of the Middle East.

I agree that if the U.S. or its citizens are attacked, taken hostage, or threatened, we should act swiftly and decisively. We should make it apparent to all terrorist and wannabe dictators that this country will not tolerate their depredations. We should also be willing to lend any assistance we can to our allies if they are likewise attacked.

I think Teddy Roosevelt had the right of it w/ that quote.

Coward wrote:

Quote:

agree with most of what you said in your most recent post. Sorry I didn't get the irony in your first post. The UN should indeed take over the job (it should have in the first place (and it would have if the US had been more patient)). As it is you might be right and the US may be doing more harm than good, in which case they should withdraw. We just don't know, and it's probably a decision the people on ste should take.


I do not necessarily think that the U.N. was prepared to move on the issue of Iraq. They did nothing when Saddam seized the money the U.N. sent for food and medical supplies for the Iraqi people and built himself several lavish palaces while his people suffered. It would be nice if the U.N. would do what it was established to do, but sadly its members agendas seldom coincide enough to allow decisive action.

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Not so sure whether you're being serious here, but shouldn't "we westeners" be working together? After all we still are in a strong military alliance. I also don't think terrorism will decrease because of military action, quite the opposite in fact, the more the US demonstrates its superiority the more pissed of everyone else will become. Terrorists aren't envious of your freedom, they're envious of your power, and terrorism is the only way they can still spite you.


I believe the entire world should be working together to end the threat of terrorism. These cowards (no pun intended) have shown that no country is safe from their attacks, and that they do not discriminate between man or woman, adult or child, old or young. This is a threat the entire world should commit manpower and resources toward to hunt down and stamp out. We need to stand together to show terrorists we will not tolerate them or their dishonorable tactics.

Who is to say why terrorists do what they do, be it for religious, political, or simple human greed. Whatever it is, these people need to learn that the world will not tolerate death and terror as a means to arguing a point.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Friday, April 23, 2004 3:12 PM

ZOID



Coward:

'We Westerners' have scarcely been an alliance of equals since France closed its NATO bases back, when? The 60's? Since the Wall came down, Germany's been following suit, backing away somewhat more gracefully from NATO. The only alliance I see that lives up to its billing is the tacit Anglo-American alliance. We've got each other's backs. Everyone else are appeasers and influence-brokers. 'Patient like the UN' is only moral cowardice.

Allow me to amuse you with a parable. If your next door neighbor is beating his wife and kids, are you going to accept the council of your neighbors who say, "It's none of our business if he beats his wife and kids. We've asked him to stop, and told him if he doesn't we will call the police. That's all we feel we can do for now." You reply, "But that was thirteen years ago, and again every six months since then; and you've issued 4 more such warnings, each sterner than the one prior. He still hasn't stopped beating his wife and children, and I think one or more of them may soon die. In addition, he's started looking at my wife and children, like he may want to start beating them next. We must call the police now!" Your neighbors say, "Well, he's not looking at our wife and children yet, so we're not particularly worried about it. No, we absolutely forbid you to call the police. He must be given more time to come into voluntary compliance with our resolutions." (Besides which, they whisper in an aside, we have been selling him some fine whips and chains, which he purchased with money he was supposed to be spending on his family's food and medicine)

Are you suggesting that we should sit and wait until our neighbor's wife and children are dead? I'd hope that you would have called law enforcement right away, as soon as you knew he was abusing his people, er, family.

Bringing it back from analogy: Is it enough to know that Saddam was an international war criminal (by using nerve agents against civilian targets), starving his people to death and sponsoring terrorism (even if it was only training facilities and weapons)? What would it take to justify a unilateral reaction on our part, in your opinion?

In postwar Iraq, I stick with the 'help those who ask, leave when they resent it' statement. The old saying goes "No good deed goes unpunished." Some countries have longer memories of friendship extended them than others, I guess. We remember our debts, else we'd have told the French to eat merde a long time ago.


Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River and me was best friends, back then. I named my first-born daughter after her. 'Course, you can't swing a dead cat 'round here on I-Day without hittin' a River..."

- Kaywinnit Tam, wife and mother of 6, A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Friday, April 23, 2004 3:32 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:

I believe the entire world should be working together to end the threat of terrorism.



And in the words of a certain friend of mine, "And if wishes were horses we'd all be eating stake!" What the entire world should do is not in our perview. We can't ensure that the entire world will do anything unless we're planning to rule it ourselves... Oh... wait... That is exactly the thinking that got us into this mess in Iraq.

Quote:

These cowards (no pun intended) have shown that no country is safe from their attacks, and that they do not discriminate between man or woman, adult or child, old or young. This is a threat the entire world should commit manpower and resources toward to hunt down and stamp out.


But different people in this world disagree about who is a terrorist and who is not. Why, just a short while ago Bin Lauden was one of our guys and not a terrorist at all. You end up making statements like our sitting President that those who do not agree with our definitions of terrorist will be treated as terrorists. Way to unify the world!

Quote:

We need to stand together to show terrorists we will not tolerate them or their dishonorable tactics.



But we can't even agree within the boarders of one country about what is dishonorable. I find Bush's sacrificing the lives of hundreds of this nations young people in the name of his racist war fantastically dishonorable.

Quote:

Who is to say why terrorists do what they do, be it for religious, political, or simple human greed. Whatever it is, these people need to learn that the world will not tolerate death and terror as a means to arguing a point.


Good Lord! "Death and terror" is exactly this administration's method of making its points! And Bush's reasons are exactly that: religious, plitical and simple human greed!

How can anyone really believe that this kind of "round 'em up and shoot 'em" mentality is gonna solve anything? You know what? All the terrorists who were alive a hundred years ago are dead, but there is arguably more terrorism today than ever. Dead terrorists does not mean the end of terrorism. Terrifying a world into submission doesn't sound like a winning strategy either.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, April 23, 2004 9:33 PM

JARED


Quote:

Originally posted by KernelM:
This is going off-topic now, but you don't study computer science or engineering just to know how to program or fix computers.



yet, thats what kaylee does. she's fixing the ship and keeps it running without needing to study it first.

Quote:

CS and CE is for people who want to actually really understand how computers work, and innovate on that.


the innovation part might work, but i see too many who cant make the step from their general "thats how operating systems should work" to installing a driver under a specific system. thats all good if you decide to stay in the theoretical field, but any employer hiring you for the diploma and expecting that someone with a diploma can handle primitive tasks like acutally using windows.. well, they might be disappointed. (reminds of a certain commercial "dont worry, its simple, every child could use it" "you dont understand, i was at university" "ohhhh, well THEN i have to explain it to you")

Quote:

I remember scoffing at big-O notation in high school too, but I learned its importance in determining the relative efficiency of algorithms.


there are hopefully better ones, yet its the only one we learned. and sorry, but assuming you can ignore factors might be nice in a theory, but break your neck when you notice "oh wait, we're not talking about huge n here and n^2 is a ton better than 100000*n".

Quote:

Quicksort, OOP, structured programming, polymorphism, etc etc.


i never bothered to find out who invented it and what his background was. but especially things like quicksort sound more like developed out of need more than for a nice intellectual challenge. and im not sure if polymorphism was really invented or just a workaround to get back some of the flexibility that was killed with introducing strictly typed languages.

but then, even after a couple of lectures i still see values in memory when using c++. maybe not during the planning phase, but its hard to ignore whats really going on and just seeing "objects". of course, some people nicknamed me performance junkie because i tend to aim for the most basic and efficient solution that does the job. so im definitely not the typical cs student, but like so many just do it because without a diploma its hard to get a decent job (es unfortunately most employers dont realize you can get one without having the slightest clue of how to actually work a computer).

mal hired someone who knows what she's doing, not someone who knows the fancy terms for what she SHOULD be doing if she had any idea of HOW to do it.

the original point was that for kaylees job (if it can be compared to computers) its even kind of pointless to study it. especially shown in her "that part is useless and just causing problems anyway" attitude.

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Friday, April 23, 2004 11:29 PM

COWARD


Zoid:

how's this for a parable:

Your neighbor really likes jewellery. Your other neighbor just so happens to be the second biggest collector of jewellery in the area. There are also rumours that said neighbour (Mister S) has been beating his wife for several years. However, no one has ever seen him beating his wife since he came out of prison ten years ago. Your other neighbour (Mister B) has since claimed that he has absolutely unquestionable evidence that Mister S is beating on his wife, but has never presented this evidence. Instead of going to the Police however, Mister B decides to take action himself and shoots Mister S.

Granted, this isn't a very good parable, but hey, it's your game we're playing here.

Everyone else wasn't being cowardly, they were just being careful, and the fact that there were no weapons on mass destruction or connections to Al-Quaida or a nuclear weapons program (exactly like all the rest of the world predicted beforehand) just proves that America did the morally wrong thing. And now you're going to quote Bush and claim that you removed an evil dictator, well yes you did. Now you can get on with removing all the other evil dictators in the world who don't happen to have a huge stack of oil.

Honestly Zoid, I don't get you. You claim the war was justified, yet you don't think the US should depend on oil and it should have an isolationist stance. You say they should withdraw in order to save American lives, well how do the 800 Americans that died in Iraq compare to the 10000s of Iraqis who died due to the war, or the estimated 500.000 People who died under the UN sanctions? If you aren't man enough to see the job through, you should have never started it in the first place.

Coward

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Saturday, April 24, 2004 12:19 AM

ZOID


Coward:

Briefly, since it's 4:45AM and I gotta go to work momentarily :(

I don't think it's about oil. Maybe we did go to war over oil, from a big money/big business/big govt point of view. For me and many Americans though, it's about national security. I think it's about getting a crazy rat bastard out of the picture, because it makes my children safer. And yes, I think we should hunt down and kill all the rogue elements in the world who would gladly blow up my children's school bus to advance their ideological agenda. The same was true for McVeigh/Nichols, because they intentionally blew up children.

While I felt strongly about Beirut and Riyadh truck bombings that killed American soldiers in a cowardly way by attacking their barracks, at least those victims were soldiers. Those brave men and women knew they might die at the hands of an enemy, at least since basic training. I don't like sabotage/sneak attacks against human targets in general; but our heros knew they were risking everything when they signed on the dotted line. They did it anyway because they loved their country, and knew that the only way to protect our freedoms -- including our freedom to listen to wacky Hollywood types spout crap as though it'd been spoken to them from a burning bush -- was by risking something of themselves, instead of just shooting their mouths off and carrying placards with canned party political statements.

As far as the US being terrorists: them's fightin' words. I'll let you make that claim the very same day that US paramilitaries capture an Iraqi civilian transport and fly it into a civilian office building.

And to put your parable into proper perspective from a common man's viewpoint (mine), one that isn't clouded by the venomous spite of American left-wing demagoguery: it's not about the jewels, and your ex-con was only out on parole, not acquitted, and hadn't attended a single required meeting with his PO. He'd get arrested again. If he put up fight, barricading himself in his house, taking his family hostage, he'd likely get shot dead for his troubles... And there'd likely be some collateral damage to house and family, regardless how careful the SWAT guys were being.



Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River and me was best friends, back then. I named my first-born daughter after her. 'Course, you can't swing a dead cat 'round here on I-Day without hittin' a River..."

- Kaywinnit Tam, wife and mother of 6, A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Saturday, April 24, 2004 2:09 AM

MAUGWAI


Quote:

Originally posted by KernelM:
Her problem is exactly that Kaylee _didn't_ go to any reputable engineering college (or any kind of formal training about ships at all, as implied in OOG).



I don't know about you guys, but I never take my car to someone who speaks proper English all the time. Unless they grew up tinkering with engines in the garage, I'm not letting them near mine. I know a dozen redneck boys who never studied anything about cars in a classroom, and they can do amazing things with a vehicle. Engineering is a hands-on job. It's completely believable that Kaylee could learn by tinkering.



"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

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Saturday, April 24, 2004 7:14 AM

BUDCLARE


Quote:

Originally posted by maugwai:
I don't know about you guys, but I never take my car to someone who speaks proper English all the time. Unless they grew up tinkering with engines in the garage, I'm not letting them near mine. I know a dozen redneck boys who never studied anything about cars in a classroom, and they can do amazing things with a vehicle. Engineering is a hands-on job. It's completely believable that Kaylee could learn by tinkering.



I agree. What really bothers me, though, is that she found Kaylee implausible, but didn't bat an eye over River. Kaylee is gifted in one specific area, River is gifted at everything. It's okay for River but not for Kaylee?

Maybe she's just suffering from Kaylee-envy.

________________________
She has had congress with the beast.

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