GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

River's Brain Scan

POSTED BY: ZOID
UPDATED: Saturday, June 5, 2004 16:11
SHORT URL: http://goo.gl/TE5xl
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Saturday, May 1, 2004 5:00 PM

ZOID


Howdy 'coats:

So, I'm doing the whole proselytization thing at work on a dead Saturday (break room) and we're watching "Ariel". Gets to the part where they're scanning River's gourd and Jayne tells Simon the plan changed, gotta go now, ya-da, ya-da, distracts Simon while River's scan goes all kaleidoscopic. River arches her back, lets out a bloodcurdling scream, and they all scurry out of the theatre to the pitter-patter of little feet shod in combat boots. We all remember the scene right?

Well, here's the deal: I know I'm slower'n molasses in January but I never noticed this one little detail before: River starts screaming when she opens her eyes and sees her own brain scan. (Oooh, two colons in one sentence). I mean, she looks up at it, it's a rainbow of fruity colors -- I swear there's a look of recognition -- and then she screams while still looking at it. In the upper peripheral of the cinematic frame, the scan derezzes as she screams, and Simon turns to look at her, just missing seeing River's brainstorm.

Given that River knows a little something about medicine (proof: she spits terminology when Simon says he's going to put her to sleep), did she see her scan and diagnose herself? Did she recognize the patterns she saw in the scan?

I always thought she was just screaming because she sensed the Blue Hands entering the facility, or otherwise 'having a moment'. Like I said, I've been known to miss the simplest stuff.


Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

(Of River) "Little Sis? I could see big things for her all along. Her and her brother both. I always knew they'd be worth something, y'know?"

- Jayne Cobb, Game Warden and co-proprietor, "Cretaceous Park", Hera; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Saturday, May 1, 2004 5:55 PM

NEROLI


My word, you are correct...at least, in the fact that she is, indeed, looking at her brain scan when she starts screaming. Not that there was any doubt you'd be right, just needed the excuse to go watch that scene before responding.

I think the diagnosed herself theory is possible, and from the sound of that scream it would not be good.

But I think it is more likely that she's had a brain scan before, at the Blue Hands...hands...and is reacting to the familiar stimuli.

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Saturday, May 1, 2004 6:31 PM

TOOMANYMEMORIES


If she had seen something about herself I think she would have at least made some effort to tell Simon what it was she saw. Especially if it was as distressing as her scream implied. After they escape, the next time we see her she is drawing and she makes no mention of it.

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Saturday, May 1, 2004 6:35 PM

DELIA


I guess I was never clear as to the cause and the effect. Did she start screaming because she saw the brain scan, or did whatever made her start screaming also trigger the changes in the brain scan?

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Saturday, May 1, 2004 6:42 PM

NEROLI


Quote:

Originally posted by Delia:
I guess I was never clear as to the cause and the effect. Did she start screaming because she saw the brain scan, or did whatever made her start screaming also trigger the changes in the brain scan?



I always thought that what triggered the changes in the brain scan were what started her screaming. Something like she sensed the Blue Hands getting closer.

But she actually looks at the lit up brain scan for a moment before she starts screaming. If you watch it closely it really does seem it is the scan that starts her off.

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Saturday, May 1, 2004 6:49 PM

GUNHAND


I actually thought the scan went crazy and then she screamed too, but for some weird reason I think that the whole scream/psychic activity went off for two reasons that happened almost simultaneously.

These being Jayne saying,"The plan changed" which is a lie, and the Blue Hands showing up at almost the same moment. I think River can read minds, but she doesn't just do what I'd call a "deep scan" reflexively. So Jayne lies, reflexively she knows it's a lie, probes a bit deeper, finds out that he betrayed them and then sends her senses out and sees Blue Hands arriving.

Combination of all this happening very quickly which causes her to panic and scream.

That's just my theory though.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Saturday, May 1, 2004 7:04 PM

NEROLI


But she already knew Jayne betrayed them, IMO...when she first woke up and said "copper for a kiss", at first she's almost teasing...but after she said it she gives him a probing look. And the Blue Hands did not actually arrive till after they were in custidy.

Though it is likely that that could be the moment the Fed contacted them. He probably wouldn't have till he was sure Jayne was going to turn them over.

I think Jayne's saying the plan changed is a part of what sets the brain waves off. But after re-watching it, it really seems the scream is set off by the brain scan.

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Saturday, May 1, 2004 7:07 PM

GUNHAND


You're probably right, even though I watched it tonight as part of the marathon, my mind is sorta mush.

I never did get the "copper for a kiss" line, I mean I heard it, just never understood what it was all about.

River just plain creepifies me so I don't pay attention to her as much as I should.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Saturday, May 1, 2004 7:12 PM

NEROLI


Well, in Biblical terms it can be seen as a referance to Judas. Though the "feel" of it when she says it is more flirty to my mind. It's like even she doesn't understand why she says it at first, it's not till Jayne reacts to the comment that she "see's" what it really means.

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Saturday, May 1, 2004 7:19 PM

GUNHAND


Hmm, never saw the Judas thing there. Although I did in 2 other places; when Mal pulls the sack of coins from his pocket and there is blood on it in "Safe" I got a Judas-y vibe and a big old obvious one in "Heart of Gold" when he tells the traitor girl she earned her bag of silver.

That one I didn't connect, may have to watch that part again real closelike.

Interesting though, it definately would make sense to a point.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Saturday, May 1, 2004 7:28 PM

NEROLI


Isn't it amazing how much depth there is in "Firefly"?

One would think that after all this time we'd have picked up every single nuance already...but no, we keep finding more!

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Saturday, May 1, 2004 7:35 PM

GUNHAND


Oh definately.

I'd really, really, reeeeeally like to get my hands on three books or at least writer's guidelines for 3 books from the Firefly 'Verse.

1) Book's Bible. I'd settle for even just knowing the names of the books in it.

2) The Works of Shan-Yu.

3) The Companion's Handbook. No I don't mean a Kama Sutra kinda book (I'd take one as a bonus gift though) but the laws and guidelines for a Companion. Think that would be very interesting.

I'd pass out with glee if I could get a glimpse of the navigational maps Mal and Wash are looking at in "Safe".

And I'd be in my bunk if there was a History of the Unification War. Heck I'd settle for a list of names, places and dates and I'd write the damn thing...and then make a History Channel style avi documentary out of it.

I just gots to know.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Saturday, May 1, 2004 7:41 PM

NEROLI


Oh, I would love to see the "Works Of Shan-Yu".

But I'd settle for knowing who the girl is in the Blue Sun commercial that Jayne interupts to talk to the Fed about his re-ward...looks rather eeriely like River to me...

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Saturday, May 1, 2004 7:47 PM

GUNHAND


Somewhere I have a mpeg or avi or something of that commercial, I'll have to rummage to find it though. As I can recall she resembled River a bit but also was different enough to make me think of someone else.

She reminded me of the girl I took to the my Senior Prom (so many moons ago) actually.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Saturday, May 1, 2004 7:50 PM

NEROLI


If you ever locate it I would love a copy of it!


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Saturday, May 1, 2004 7:54 PM

GUNHAND


Soing the whole search thing now.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Saturday, May 1, 2004 8:31 PM

GUNHAND





Well I am stupid. Of course I don't have it here, it's on my computer that's 3 timezones away.



BUT!

I found the link that lets you at least watch it.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/firefly/features.htm

Ya know what, it may just be River all gussied up.

So in Bizarro World...I took River to the Prom.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Saturday, May 1, 2004 8:41 PM

NEROLI


Yeah, I've seen that one many times, just can't download it or get it to show up bigger then a stamp!! So I can't get that great a look at it. ~sighs~

Oh well...in my head I'll just go on believing that the Blue Hands used River for their sick and twisted propaganda. She is the Blue Hands tool for mind controling the entire universe into worshipping their evil cola!

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Sunday, May 2, 2004 6:42 AM

HELL'S KITTEN


Gunhand -

Quote:

I'd pass out with glee if I could get a glimpse of the navigational maps Mal and Wash are looking at in "Safe".

I scanned in my FF starmap and put it on a bitty little webpage, just for you:

http://home.comcast.net/~sjg013/FF/Starmap.html

It's tough to read, but if you zoom in on the bigger files, you can read a lot of what's written. Kinda nifty. Oh, yeah, hey, if the pix don't show or the links don't work, it's cuz I don't often make webpages; just lemme know. (This should end some of the debates about whether the FF verse is in one system or many.)

As for the Historiy of the Unification War, there are bits and pieces of the history in the intros of the promotional videos. I'll try to remember to write it all down next time I watch 'em.

Also, about River being in that Blue Sun ad, I read something about this a while ago, but I can't recall the specifics. I'm of the feeling, though, that it isn't River in that ad...it is someone we should know, but my Sunday lazy brain ain't workin'.

Anyway, blah blah blah. Enjoy the maps, but please don't hit your head and die if you pass out. I might feel a little guilty.

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Sunday, May 2, 2004 6:49 AM

SHINY


Quote:

Originally posted by Neroli:
Oh, I would love to see the "Works Of Shan-Yu".

But I'd settle for knowing who the girl is in the Blue Sun commercial that Jayne interupts to talk to the Fed about his re-ward...looks rather eeriely like River to me...



Isn't that Kelly, Joss Whedon's assistant? She's the one who wrote the Firefly blog on the Fox website when the show was still on the air, and she appears briefly in the disk 4 special features (the making of firefly, gag reel). She is also seen in several of the shot promotional web videos that were on the Fox site.

Please help Haken keep this site running by occasionally clicking on some of the sponsored ad links on the side of the page!

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Sunday, May 2, 2004 7:05 AM

FIREFLYTHEMOVIE


Yup. According to IMDB, it's Kelly Wheeler.

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Sunday, May 2, 2004 8:11 AM

BEATLE


Quote:

Originally posted by Hell's Kitten:
I scanned in my FF starmap and put it on a bitty little webpage, just for you:



Hey, those were supposed to be just for me. I've been checking my email for weeks!

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Sunday, May 2, 2004 8:23 AM

STARHAND


Quote:

Originally posted by Hell's Kitten:
Gunhand -

Quote:

I'd pass out with glee if I could get a glimpse of the navigational maps Mal and Wash are looking at in "Safe".

I scanned in my FF starmap and put it on a bitty little webpage, just for you:

http://home.comcast.net/~sjg013/FF/Starmap.html

It's tough to read, but if you zoom in on the bigger files, you can read a lot of what's written. Kinda nifty. Oh, yeah, hey, if the pix don't show or the links don't work, it's cuz I don't often make webpages; just lemme know. (This should end some of the debates about whether the FF verse is in one system or many.)

As for the Historiy of the Unification War, there are bits and pieces of the history in the intros of the promotional videos. I'll try to remember to write it all down next time I watch 'em.

Also, about River being in that Blue Sun ad, I read something about this a while ago, but I can't recall the specifics. I'm of the feeling, though, that it isn't River in that ad...it is someone we should know, but my Sunday lazy brain ain't workin'.

Anyway, blah blah blah. Enjoy the maps, but please don't hit your head and die if you pass out. I might feel a little guilty.



Thank you from the bottom of my techno geeky heart for the bdm - big damn map of the 'verse.

Regarding who's in the Blue Sun ad, it's Kelly. I think she was a production assistant for the show and also kept a blog for the show while it was in production. At least I'm pretty sure, maybe someone will verify that.

Now I'm going to go put my nose an inch from the monitor and go blind looking at that shiney map.

“but I’ve been sane awhile now and change is good” …Wash

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Sunday, May 2, 2004 8:30 AM

WANGENSTEIN


Just wanted to post my two cents about the original topic.

What set River off depends largely on what ability was showing itself at that moment. If it was River's burgeoning telepathy, it could be that she sensed Jayne's intent to betray them. However, her ability is too unrefined at this point, so all her conscious mind receives is an urgent feeling that something 'bad' is going to happen. This could also explain how she senses the Men in Blue later on.

Personally, I believe that River was having a vaguely prescient moment when she started screaming, set off by Jayne's announcement that the plan had changed and that they were heading out the back way.

At that moment, Jayne essentially commits himself to turning them in. That commitment is enough to generate (precognitively speaking) a likely series of events that ends with River back in the the custody of the Blue Hand Group.

You'll notice that the brainscan begins to change right after Jayne speaks, but River doesn't start screaming for several seconds afterwards. I think her brain picked up on the sudden change in future and ran it forward, with River getting little more than a sense that the MiB are coming or will get her, some flash of approaching, horrible danger.

The precog theory also gives some explanation of her attack on Jayne at the beginning of the episode, something beyond 'she ain't all there': an incredibly vague sense of menace and anger at Jayne, but nothing concrete enough to communicate in any useful fashion.

There are a lot of strange people in the world. I should know; I'm three of them...

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Sunday, May 2, 2004 8:50 AM

GUNHAND


Quote:

Originally posted by Hell's Kitten:
Gunhand -

Quote:

I'd pass out with glee if I could get a glimpse of the navigational maps Mal and Wash are looking at in "Safe".

I scanned in my FF starmap and put it on a bitty little webpage, just for you:

http://home.comcast.net/~sjg013/FF/Starmap.html

It's tough to read, but if you zoom in on the bigger files, you can read a lot of what's written. Kinda nifty. Oh, yeah, hey, if the pix don't show or the links don't work, it's cuz I don't often make webpages; just lemme know. (This should end some of the debates about whether the FF verse is in one system or many.)

As for the Historiy of the Unification War, there are bits and pieces of the history in the intros of the promotional videos. I'll try to remember to write it all down next time I watch 'em.

Also, about River being in that Blue Sun ad, I read something about this a while ago, but I can't recall the specifics. I'm of the feeling, though, that it isn't River in that ad...it is someone we should know, but my Sunday lazy brain ain't workin'.

Anyway, blah blah blah. Enjoy the maps, but please don't hit your head and die if you pass out. I might feel a little guilty.



I now must make a statue of you!

Consider yourself bowed to and grovelled at for the rest of the week!

Thank you, very very very very much!

*does the glee thing*



~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Sunday, May 2, 2004 8:52 AM

GUNHAND


Also I'm glad I didn't take River to the Prom then, because I did the math and when I was going to it she would have been 9 or 10, and that's just freaky.



~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Sunday, May 2, 2004 10:47 AM

HELL'S KITTEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Beatle:
Quote:

Originally posted by Hell's Kitten:
I scanned in my FF starmap and put it on a bitty little webpage, just for you:



Hey, those were supposed to be just for me. I've been checking my email for weeks!


Oh! That's right! I completely forgot. Uh, hey, I did tell you to bother me with emails if you didn't hear from me...so...see how I'm slowly turning this around to be all your fault? The full scan of the map is 11MB; if you want it in all it's glory, let me know and I'll try to find a way of getting it to you.

And, sorry for straying off topic. River's brain scan ... is ... pretty. I always figured the screaming and carrying on was due to Jayne's betrayal and the arrival of the Blue Hands Group. But, hey, what do I know.

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Sunday, May 2, 2004 10:49 AM

JEBBYPAL


Okay, is it just me, or does this map solve the dispute as to whether the Firefly story is set in a sigular solar system or a much larger universe? These maps look alot like multiple systems composing a universe to me.

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Sunday, May 2, 2004 10:53 AM

NEROLI


Quote:

Originally posted by Shiny:


Isn't that Kelly, Joss Whedon's assistant? She's the one who wrote the Firefly blog on the Fox website when the show was still on the air, and she appears briefly in the disk 4 special features (the making of firefly, gag reel). She is also seen in several of the shot promotional web videos that were on the Fox site.

Please help Haken keep this site running by occasionally clicking on some of the sponsored ad links on the side of the page!



Thanks Shiney!!

That's been bugging me for a while now and I was never able to find out who it was.

I was pretty sure it wasn't really River, all joking aside...that was just the closest I could figure...LOL

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Sunday, May 2, 2004 11:02 AM

GHOULMAN


*looks in thread*... not one of you have a screenshot? What kind a geeks are yas? come on! Let's have a screenshot of Rivers Brain!

HAHAHA, screenshot of Rivers' brain sounds funny eh?

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Sunday, May 2, 2004 1:19 PM

BLINKER


Quote:

Okay, is it just me, or does this map solve the dispute as to whether the Firefly story is set in a sigular solar system or a much larger universe? These maps look alot like multiple systems composing a universe to me.


Maybe not. I don't see anything FF-related on the map - one of the text blocks even discusses the night sky from Earth. It looks like a generic astronomical map that someone tossed into the press kits as filler.

And I was so looking forward to seeing the layout of the 'verse...

_________
Sliders: Gate Haven - http://slidersweb.net/blinker

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Sunday, May 2, 2004 1:43 PM

CYBERSNARK


Just a thought on the 'verse:

Contrary to what a lot of shows present, space is really hard to map accurately in two-dimensions.

Part of Firefly's charm is the scientific accuracy whenever possible. That map looks like a standard planet-based starchart (the two circles are north & south hemispheres). Possibly the "standard" nav charts are calculated from the particular ship's location (or from the location of the nearest fixed-location nav-buoy). Meaning that there is no "official" map, since everything would change depending on where in the 'verse you are.

It'd take some kinda advanced training to read those things, which may explain why we rarely hear about anyone renting their own long-range ship, and why Mal and Zoe (who both seem like not inexperianced spacers) needed to hire a pilot. Also may explain why Mal was so quick to hire Wash --a good enough navigator would be able to write his own ticket.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Sunday, May 2, 2004 2:26 PM

FORRESTWOLF


I was wondering if it would resolve the issue, too - then zoomed in and saw the words. No dice - it is indeed a map of the night sky, viewed from Earth. Look at the words, using the hi-res version - it clearly states it's just a star chart from Earth. Strangely reversed, but otherwise it's just a stolen chart for nighttime viewing. Not futuristic or anything. Well, at least Mutant Enemy knows how to save money :)

Whew - I really still want to believe in the one-solar system theory :)

As for the ad, yes - looking at Kelly pictures right now, it's Kelly.

AND back to the original subject - I must say I was quite freaked out when I noticed the brain scan changing before she woke up - raised the hair on the back of my neck. Gotta love those touches in Firefly. I'd vote for it being some sort of glimpse at her abilities, but not a realization about Jayne's betrayal - just my 2 credits worth of guess. Mostly just an extra sort of a hint about River's actual condition (whatever it is).

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Sunday, May 2, 2004 2:34 PM

SHINY


Quote:

Originally posted by Blinker:
Maybe not. I don't see anything FF-related on the map - one of the text blocks even discusses the night sky from Earth. It looks like a generic astronomical map that someone tossed into the press kits as filler.



Yup. I googled different phrases from the paragraph on the FF star charts and found:

"The stars of earth’s night sky seem to hang like tranquil lanterns, filling us with wonder. They inspire great works of art, and tempt our imaginations into creating stories and myths from the shapes we see."
http://www.astrolink.de/h/h022301/0-7922-9326-6.htm

"Time Exposures: The Hubble Telescope Views the Universe From Space
The stars of earth’s night sky appear as tranquil lanterns—the violence of their births, lives, and deaths obscured by vast distances. In the seven years since its launch, the Hubble Space Telescope has done more than perhaps any other astronomical device to reveal the secret lives of stars."
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/9704/hilights.html

Finally, here is the actual star chart that appears to have been re-colored and duplicated to form the FF star charts:
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/stars/chart/index.html

What? Did you think the Zoic folks were paid enough to actually create whole galaxies from scratch???


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Sunday, May 2, 2004 10:23 PM

RANGRBOB


Remaining off topic with the rest...

Even if it is a generic map it does not mean that it could not represent the multisystem domain of the Aliance. It just means Zodiac used what they had. Also, if it is not a map then why would Wash have used it to determine where to go to find a doctor for Book in Safe.

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Monday, May 3, 2004 3:12 AM

HELL'S KITTEN


Also...along the same non-topic topic...in the intro to the promo tape of Train Job, Book says in his narrative that there are hundreds of terraformed planets that were all united under the Alliance rule. Now, I'm no astro-physicist, but having hundreds of planets in one solar system just doesn't seem feasible. You can terraform a planet all you want, but if it's too close or too far from the sun, y'ain't gonna be livin' there.

Now, back to the topic...I watched Ariel last night and paid close attention to River's brain scan. Her eyes are closed when Jayne says that the plans have changed, then the scan goes all wiggy, then she opens her eyes, looks at it for a few, then gets all panicy saying that "they come when you call them" or somesuch. I figured that whole thing meant that she knew Jayne was lying and that the Blue Hands were on their way. Not that she diagnosed herself...which doesn't really make a whole lotta sense to me.

Wow, okay, that's enough. I'm gettin' awfully wordy for a lurker; going back to lurking now.

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Monday, May 3, 2004 4:47 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


I will have to go back & rewatch Ariel tonight, but I had assumed that River's reaction was to her picking up on Jayne's lie and his intent to betray them, perhaps she even picked up on the approach of the Feds. I had never thought that her reaction might be to the scan hovering above her head.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Monday, May 3, 2004 5:23 AM

JUMPY


Quote:

Originally posted by Hell's Kitten:
Now, back to the topic...I watched Ariel last night and paid close attention to River's brain scan. Her eyes are closed when Jayne says that the plans have changed, then the scan goes all wiggy, then she opens her eyes, looks at it for a few, then gets all panicy saying that "they come when you call them" or somesuch. I figured that whole thing meant that she knew Jayne was lying and that the Blue Hands were on their way. Not that she diagnosed herself...which doesn't really make a whole lotta sense to me.



Yep I totally agree with you on that, seems more feasible and a little more obvious than her "diagnosing" herself

Mercy is the mark of a great man…*stab*…I guess I'm just a good man…*stab*…Well, I'm alright.

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Monday, May 3, 2004 5:58 AM

LOST


Okay, I'm a little confused, and I think that the best way to solve that is just to go back and watch the episode again, but I was under the impression that Jayne saying, "There's been a change of plans" was actually him changing the plans.

What I mean was, I think that at that moment he decided not to turn them in and that's why he wanted to book it out of there early and take a different path. After all, wouldn't it have just been easier to have waited the extra couple of minutes and let the Doc and his sister get pinched on the way out?

Maybe I'm just mad, but anyone with me on this?

Hey, I've been in a firefight before! Well, I was in a fire... Actually, I was fired from a fry-cook opportunity.

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Monday, May 3, 2004 12:25 PM

WANGENSTEIN


If that was the case, why did he still take them out the front (or back, or whereever didn't lead to Mal and company), right where the feds were? Besides, he didn't seem surprised to see the feds there, just surprised that he got double-crossed. Interesting idea, but I'm not sure it squares with what happened.

BTW, it occured to me that River's lines about 'They took away Christmas' may have been aimed at Jayne regarding his being double-crossed. Perhaps she 'read' his disappointment and with her brain twisted as it is, it came out with an xmas bent to it.

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Monday, May 3, 2004 12:38 PM

JUMPY


Yeh I kinda agree with LOST, at least when I watched it that's what I thought had happened. I'll have to see it again to decide

Mercy is the mark of a great man…*stab*…I guess I'm just a good man…*stab*…Well, I'm alright.

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Monday, May 3, 2004 12:42 PM

LOST


Yeah, watched the scene again and I'll admit I'm finding some difficulty getting everything to agree one way or another.

True, if Jayne was trying to get them out, why'd they walk right into some of the guards?

But if he wasn't, why did he want to leave twenty minutes before they had to?

I don't know, I guess deep down I just want to believe that Jayne will do the right thing.

***
Hey, I've been in a firefight before! Well, I was in a fire... Actually, I was fired from a fry-cook opportunity.

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Monday, May 3, 2004 1:00 PM

SHINY


Quote:

Originally posted by Lost:
But if he wasn't, why did he want to leave twenty minutes before they had to?



He wanted to sell them out early enough that:
1) Mal and Zoe wouldn't get worried and come to find them, spoiling his plan
2) He could leave undetected by Mal and the others, in case he decided that they would never forgive him for his betrayal (although his response to Mal's reaction would suggest he hadn't really thought too carefully about what the others would think)

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Monday, May 3, 2004 2:58 PM

SAMURAIX47


Quote:

Hell's Kitten:
Also...along the same non-topic topic...in the intro to the promo tape of Train Job, Book says in his narrative that there are hundreds of terraformed planets that were all united under the Alliance rule. Now, I'm no astro-physicist, but having hundreds of planets in one solar system just doesn't seem feasible. You can terraform a planet all you want, but if it's too close or too far from the sun, y'ain't gonna be livin' there.



I just think that this is Joss' simple misunderstanding of planetary and stellar distances, and not having a thoroughly thought out FF 'verse. Or if JW isn't responsible for those intros (which isn't on the DVDs) used on the broadcast of the episodes then it's just typical Hollywood ignorance about the definitions of Universe, Galaxy, Solar System, etc...

Quote:

Originally posted by Jebbypal
Okay, is it just me, or does this map solve the dispute as to whether the Firefly story is set in a sigular solar system or a much larger universe? These maps look alot like multiple systems composing a universe to me.



Okay just as an example, and I'm not aiming anything against Jebby here for his use of the word universe, but if this is 500 yrs in our future, than this is still the ONE and only universe we are currently in. The universe encompasses everything so there are no other universes, unless you want to break the bounds of space-time where other universes exist, like the Star Trek Universe or the Star Wars Universe. But for all reality purposes there is only one 'verse. There are billions of stars that make up a galaxy. Galaxies are millions of light-years apart. Solar systems are a few light-years apart.

If the FF 'verse is made of multiple star systems then maybe they are in a stellar cluster where the stars are close enough that travel to that many planets could be possible. Or a multiple star system... like Castor, which is three pairs of binary stars orbiting each other and was also the setting for Isaac Asimov's Nightfall. Each of the binarys could have their own planetary systems.

Or as I had postulated in another thread that most of the planets in the FF 'verse are satellites of gas giants... moons... but planet-sized moons.

Again the confusion of how do you write an intro that can inform the uninformed masses watching network tv in the shortest amount of dialogue is what probably drove the basis for the intros used by Fvx for the broadcast versions of FF. It gets the point across but is really inaccurate to those who would be geek enough to nitpick the facts. (guilty as charged, your honor )

Jaymes

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Monday, May 3, 2004 3:08 PM

SAMURAIX47


Quote:

Originally posted by Shiny:
Finally, here is the actual star chart that appears to have been re-colored and duplicated to form the FF star charts:
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/stars/chart/index.html



Dpending on how far the FF'verse is to Earth-that-was... many of the constellations could appear much the same.

I suppose the prop people just threw this together, made it look really cool by layering the map 4 times to give it some depth, and that is the system map that Wash uses in Safe. Doesn't have to be true to the 'verse, it just has to look cool on tv.

But we can still wish for an accurate rendering...

Hey does anyone complain about the Star Trek universe map from the original Tech Manual and the one made for the Next Gen, DS9 and Voyager series? I know I was thoroughly disappointed in the lack of continuity, but then I'm a trekker for life so I have to nitpick.

Jaymes

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Monday, May 3, 2004 6:28 PM

RANGRBOB


What I picked up from that part of the Ariel episode was that River's brain lit up after Jayne said that they had to go because of a change of plans.
Then River said something like
"They come out of the dark, They come when you call"
I think this refers to the Blue Hand Men and Aliance Troops capturing them after Jayne's call.
I also think River's brain lit up at that time because she was only able to see that future after Jayne commited to it by taking them out early to deliver them to the Aliance.
And I'm sure if he had changed his mind about turning them in he would have mentioned it to Mal during his debriefing.

I suck at spellen so go easy on me.

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Tuesday, May 4, 2004 7:12 AM

WANGENSTEIN


I mentioned this earlier in an edit, but I should have just made a new post of it... hey, like this one!

It occurred to me that River's lines about 'They took away Christmas' may have been aimed at Jayne regarding his being double-crossed. Perhaps she 'read' his disappointment at not getting the big payday he was expecting, and with her brain twisted as it is, it came out with an xmas bent to it.

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Tuesday, May 4, 2004 1:12 PM

LJOSALF


Definitely agree: River is reading Jayne at the substation as he realizes not only is he not getting the reward for the Tams but probably is well and truly caught and has missed out on the original haul to boot.

Oh, and, show of hands, who thinks that Jayne got the gear and badges from his Fed contact and that is why Mal and Zoe's badges didn't work on the door? That Fed wouldn't want to cut into the Alliance's profits, would he? Good thing that God's-gift-to-medecine came along when he did and was sooooo obnoxious and persistent he had to be shocked out cold. Otherwise, yeah, Jayne would have managed to betray Mal too, and the entire caper would have gone irredeemably south.

What kinda puzzles me about River's brain scan is that Simon downloads/saves it before it goes all interesting and it takes an appreciable amount of time for that to complete. Then he snatches out his media a split second after the scan gets all interesting. Yet, in a later episode, Simon is examining that interesting end part of the scan. That's some super fast, prescient autosave feature on that thing! Must mean that, although Windows appears to have survived as an operating system for automated trash containers, a la the microanalyzed trash bin screen in "Trash", some other software company must make brain scanner software.

Ljosalf

The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
Marcel Proust (1871 - 1922)

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Tuesday, May 4, 2004 1:56 PM

GUNHAND


I don't think Jayne got the ID from the Feds per se. He's got contacts because of...umm, well not sure why he has contacts really but I do have an odd theory.

In the teasers to one of the episodes, pretty sure it's on The Train Job the jacket he's wearing looks to be your typical army surplus sorta thing that Jayne wears from time to time. But the last time I watched it I noticed that it has a patch on it, a very intersting patch that says Polizei on it with a heraldic crest. Polizei being German for Police made me think of a couple odd things.

First off, where'd he get a cop jacket? Now if you pinch one it's not the sort of thing you'd want to run around in just for the hell of it. So one of my crazy theories is that Jayne was at one point a cop. Now that sounds crazy, but he has skill with weapons, he tracked Serenity in his "introduction" in Out Of Gas and that could explain where he has these odd contacts. Plus he knows about interrogation techniques, he likes the cruder ones but he knows a thing or two about the more subtle kind.

Secondly, it means somewhere in the 'Verse there's a moon that has a goodly number of German descendents. Doubt a place would bother to use German on their official patches (especially one that didn't also have it spelled out in English and/or Chinese as well) unless the bulk of the citizenry in the jurisdiction spoke German or an English/German hybrid.

Thirdly, and this is sorta out there and has a lot to do with what Book really was before becoming a Shepard, but maybe Book and Jayne's increasing friendship comes from them both being cops at some point. I can see Jayne with his interest in getting paid and paid well being a crooked cop on the force who eventually went freelance becoming a tracker/bounty hunter/Merc. Cops can tell other cops, it's the way they look at things, it's the way they carry themselves, it's hard to explain but a cop can always pick out another cop even if he's dressed in civies and comes from a different country.

Jayne being a cop could also explain why he didn't fight in the war. I'm assuming that the Alliance would have had a draft in effect, you'd need one just to get the size of an army that could take that many casualties at Serenity Valley, and as a general rule cops don't get drafted.

So Jayne Cobb, ex-dirty cop with connections, used some of his old connections to get the ID cards they needed to get into the hospital. I don't think Jayne had anything to do with the cards not opening the med vault, but if his contact still bore him some sort of grudge he could have given him dodgy cards just to monkeywrench his plans some.

Anyhow that's kinda off the train of thought for the River thing and way out there but just a crazy theory I have.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Tuesday, May 4, 2004 2:11 PM

KRYSTOPHER


Quote:

Originally posted by Neroli:
Quote:

Originally posted by Delia:
I guess I was never clear as to the cause and the effect. Did she start screaming because she saw the brain scan, or did whatever made her start screaming also trigger the changes in the brain scan?



I always thought that what triggered the changes in the brain scan were what started her screaming. Something like she sensed the Blue Hands getting closer.

But she actually looks at the lit up brain scan for a moment before she starts screaming. If you watch it closely it really does seem it is the scan that starts her off.



Personally the way I've always interpreted the scene is that she sensed the Blue Hands. River's brain does the little change of colors and then a moment later her eyes open and she (almost) immediately starts screaming.

I mean, Simon mentioned that she 'can't not' and she 'feels everything' (I know I got those mixed up but oh well). So techincally fear for River would be all consuming (same with love, anger, hurt, sadness, joy, etc). Which would explain the color change.

It's also intirely possible that River diagnosed herself and thats why she started screaming or she diagnosed herself and still started screaming because she sensed the Blue Hands. It really is up for different interpretations.

~
I'm not human. That's your only warning.

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