GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

SECOND

POSTED BY: MIKER
UPDATED: Saturday, January 15, 2022 23:47
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Monday, April 7, 2014 3:31 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Mal never gives much thought to working out a way to deal with anybody dangerous or unworthy of his trust.


One word:

River.

Your characterization analysis is flawed and inaccurate.

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Monday, April 7, 2014 3:38 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by CHRISISALL:
"If someone tries to kill you, you try and kill 'em right back."

Jayne isn't as scrupulous as Mal, Jayne shoots first in Our Mrs Reynolds and Serenity, the pilot episode. Waiting for the other guy to shoot at Jayne first is inefficient.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, April 7, 2014 3:42 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by CHRISISALL:
"If someone tries to kill you, you try and kill 'em right back."

Jayne isn't as scrupulous as Mal, Jayne shoots first in Our Mrs Reynolds and Serenity, the pilot episode. Waiting for the other guy to shoot at Jayne first is inefficient.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


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Monday, April 7, 2014 3:44 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



"If someone tries to kill you, you try and kill 'em right back."
Jayne isn't as scrupulous as Mal, Jayne shoots first in Our Mrs Reynolds and Serenity, the pilot episode. Waiting for the other guy to shoot at Jayne first is inefficient.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly



Jayne is a horse of a different color. We all should be able to see the difference between Mal and Jayne. It is very apparent.

SORRY, I HAVEN'T YET MASTERED HOW TO QUOTE SOMEONE IN THIS CONTEXT.

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Monday, April 7, 2014 3:58 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

Mal never gives much thought to working out a way to deal with anybody dangerous or unworthy of his trust.


One word:

River.

Your characterization analysis is flawed and inaccurate.

You are right. We can add to Mal's decision tree about who not to kill. There are a few humans that he gives full status as being people not to be killed on a whim. Jayne can thank his lucky stars that he made it into that group. River has saved Mal enough times, maybe, to also be in that special group. Probably puppies and little children, too.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, April 7, 2014 4:15 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


OK next. SECOND, have you met any of the cast of Firefly, say at a convention that you have pictures of? I am thinking of hitting the Minneapolis Comic Com in early May. I have checked out the cost of getting a picture with them and it is very expensive.

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Monday, April 7, 2014 5:23 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

Mal never gives much thought to working out a way to deal with anybody dangerous or unworthy of his trust.


One word:

River.

Your characterization analysis is flawed and inaccurate.

You are right. We can add to Mal's decision tree about who not to kill. There are a few humans that he gives full status as being people not to be killed on a whim. Jayne can thank his lucky stars that he made it into that group. River has saved Mal enough times, maybe, to also be in that special group. Probably puppies and little children, too.



Made it nothing. He didn't kill River when he first saw her despite her bringing a Fed and possibly the threat of the rest of the Alliance down on them. And she'd done nothing to help them at that point.

If it was really just about usefulness or threats or whether he personally knows the person for Mal, she and Simon would have been outright dead.

If it was just about whether he could trust people, Jayne would be dead.

The most we can say is that he only shoots people who are a danger to himself and others, and sometimes not even then. While it's a form of vigilantism, and different from what you might consider ethical or moral, it is not UNethical or A-moral.

Furthermore, he seems to have greatly exaggerated sense of what is NOT a risk, because he seems to allow risks no sane person would.

As such this idea that he kills on a whim is incorrect. There are numerous factors that go into that determination. The fact that we see him kill so often is a product of the episodic nature and genre of the series - it's not interesting for the viewer to watch him go weeks without a brawl or a shootout, so none of the episodes really ever focus on those other times.

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Monday, April 7, 2014 5:36 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Mal said it to Book in Serenity. " I had an out, ( referring to bringing River back onboard Serenity after the bar fight scene ). Book replied, it's not your way".

This to me shows he went so far as to protect some at great risk to himself. Remember why Tracey said he picked Mal and Zoe to involve in his scheme. They were saps.

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Monday, April 7, 2014 6:01 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Furthermore, he seems to have greatly exaggerated sense of what is NOT a risk, because he seems to allow risks no sane person would.


Good points. MIKERs' are too.

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Monday, April 7, 2014 7:03 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by CHRISISALL:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Furthermore, he seems to have greatly exaggerated sense of what is NOT a risk, because he seems to allow risks no sane person would.


Good points. MIKERs' are too.



To BYTEMITE'S point, Mal offered to help Inara's friend in Heart of Gold without payment. He told Saffron he bested her because he had the help of others. Friends that due for others and are not always thinking of themselves. Mal was a good guy who was fighting to hold onto his humanity.

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Monday, April 7, 2014 7:29 PM

BYTEMITE


Although this isn't tangential to the "Mal killing people on a whim discussion" the thing with Nandi isn't the only time he's been a do-gooder for free. He also decides to play hero for the people on Triumph in Our Mrs. Reynolds at the beginning, stopping some bandits who were preying on the technologically helpless population.

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Monday, April 7, 2014 7:51 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


I think it does apply. We are talking about Mal's Character. The totality of the man and you make a good point by pointing out the type of jobs he takes. Remember in the train job what he did when he found out what he had stolen. A cold blooded killer would not have returned the medicine.

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Wednesday, April 9, 2014 10:52 AM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Also, listen to Inara begin to describe Mal to her client in Jayne's' Town. He is a man of honor.

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Wednesday, April 9, 2014 1:19 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


"A man of honor in a den of thieves," as Badger put it. :)




wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Wednesday, April 9, 2014 2:19 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
"A man of honor in a den of thieves," as Badger put it. :)






Ya nailed it.



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Wednesday, April 9, 2014 3:02 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by MIKER:
Also, listen to Inara begin to describe Mal to her client in Jayne's' Town. He is a man of honor.



She isn't really an impartial character witness though...

The Operative you could make an argument for being impartial. Although he has a kinda skewed perspective on what constitutes honourable or noble, but he's done the profiling and he respects the captain without liking him. Enough to admit he's a monster who kills unjustly and Mal isn't. Enough to say that Mal will be a man of reason/honour or play the brigand depending on what the situation is.

Badgers assessment is also probably objective, though not for the reason Badger meant. I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic with the "man of honour in a den of thieves" comment.

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Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:22 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



BYTEMITE
Badgers assessment is also probably objective, though not for the reason Badger meant. I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic with the "man of honour in a den of thieves" comment.






I think Badger was speaking to his perception of Mal's way of thinking. I believe he believed what he was saying.

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Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:29 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Badgers assessment is also probably objective, though not for the reason Badger meant.

He was questioning Mal's view of himself in Badger & Co.'s presence.

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Wednesday, April 9, 2014 6:24 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by CHRISISALL:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Badgers assessment is also probably objective, though not for the reason Badger meant.

He was questioning Mal's view of himself in Badger & Co.'s presence.



I seem to remember Badger suggesting to Mal that "He Badger" thought Mal was still a sergeant and saw himself as man of honor in a den of thieves. Badger did not like the way Mal saw himself as better than them.

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Wednesday, April 9, 2014 6:26 PM

CHRISISALL


Yep.

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Wednesday, April 9, 2014 8:25 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by CHRISISALL:
Yep.



Yep



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Wednesday, April 9, 2014 10:13 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


CHRISISALL:
I just noticed the Star Ship Enterprise in your logo. Yeah ! I Love that series also.

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Wednesday, April 9, 2014 10:17 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by MIKER:
CHRISISALL:
I just noticed the Star Ship Enterprise in your logo. Yeah ! I Love that series also.

The only TV series I love more than Firefly...

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Wednesday, April 9, 2014 11:08 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


I get it, and what is nice about it is their is enough to allow for a lot of viewing enjoyment. It is not like you could watch it all in a day.

Two bad SECOND isn't a fan. We would be seeing a lot of great art work and links.

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Thursday, April 10, 2014 2:15 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by CHRISISALL:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Badgers assessment is also probably objective, though not for the reason Badger meant.

He was questioning Mal's view of himself in Badger & Co.'s presence.



Yes, that's what I mean. Badger is pointing out the very fact that Mal is IN a den of thieves looking to do business, means that in Badger's view Mal isn't quite as honourable as he tries to assert. Certainly not better than Badger.

He's basically telling Mal he's a hypocrite and to get off his high horse.

But removed from that context, Badger's assessment is still pretty accurate.

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Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:06 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Yes you are on the money. However, Mal sees himself as not being as cut throat and unscrupulous as the others. That goes to the original question of what kind of man is he? Is he a cold blooded killer? Remember Badger was inspecting a girls teeth when Mal walked in, in that episode. She was to be sold. Then remember how Mal was with Saffron. That is how the discussion began. What kind of man IS Mal. Remember when Mal was being torchered in War Stories. His torcherer suggested to Mal there was no room in business for being honorable because Mal gave the medicine back. Mal's strength of character shows up over and over again. The way he looks after River. Badgers perception is just that, a perception. Badger has a need to lift himself up in his own eyed." Member of the Community ", is who he thinks he is. Mal's actions show him to be what Badger thinks he is not. Better than him. I suspect Badger knows this.

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Friday, April 11, 2014 8:43 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


What kind of man is Mal? There are new kinks in his personality from episode to episode.

Read Mal's dialog in Heart of Gold. Watch Nandi and Inara manipulate Mal into a war with Rance's gunmen. These women grab hold of Mal's honor and lead him around like he is a bull with a rope in his nose-ring.

INARA It sounds like the sort of thing this crew can handle. I can't guarantee they'll handle it particularly well, but --

NANDI If they got guns, and brains at all...

INARA They have guns.

NANDI (worried) Payment won't be a problem. We just ain't equipped for this.

INARA Nandi, it's gonna be all right.

INARA (cont'd) I suppose you heard most of that?

MAL Only 'cause I was eavesdropping. Your friend sounds like she's in a peck of trouble.

INARA She is. There's no authority on that moon she can turn to. They're totally alone.

MAL Some men might take advantage of that.

INARA One man.

MAL And she's lookin' for someone to come along and “explain” things to him?

INARA That's essentially it, yes.

%******%

NANDI And you see the way we live here. Go into town, it's the same. Some places come up rustic 'cause they ain't got more'n the basics. Rance Burgess has money enough to build a city, a real community. He keeps people living like this so he can play cowboy, be the one with the best toys. Turned this moon into a gorram theme park. Someone stands up to him... He means to burn me out.

MAL He sounds like a fun guy. I'd like to meet him.

NANDI This won't be solved with talk.

MAL I'm gonna fight a man, it helps to size him up.

%******%

INARA Well?

MAL Well what?

INARA You said you wanted to look him in the eye. You've done that. So what's the plan?

MAL Plan is -- we get back to Serenity and we get off this rock just as fast we can.

%******%

NANDI Rance Burgess is just a man... And I won't let any man take what's mine. I doubt you'd do different, in my position.

Eyes still locked on each other, a stalemate of personal cool, until Mal shakes his head slightly.

MAL Well, lady I must say-- (admiring smile) You're my kinda stupid.

He turns to Zoe and the rest of his crew.

MAL (cont'd) Y'heard my points of contention with this thing. But I got a lifetime of good night's rest to consider, so I'm goin' back on that.

Dithering back and forth, Mal finally chooses the option with the highest body count. There is one option Mal never goes near until Nandi is dead. Petaline takes that option with Mal's help: kill Rance Burgess in cold blood, without all of Mal's heroics and honor. The sooner Rance dies, the lower the body count, but Mal wouldn't do it until too late for Nandi.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, April 11, 2014 9:42 AM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


I remember all that and can see the exchanges in my head as I read your post. I have to say the first part is a bit of comic relief. Of course Mal is going to help Inara's friend Nandi. Mal is in love with and loyal to Inara, and yes she is capable of manipulating Mal.

Inara and Nandi are my kink of trouble!

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Friday, April 11, 2014 11:39 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

The sooner Rance dies, the lower the body count, but Mal wouldn't do it until too late for Nandi.


Mal isn't prescient either. Nandi's death isn't the result of him deciding that he wanted a good fight and a high body count. It was a result of Nandi's own decision to not take Mal up on his offer to transport all of them off world. Without help, Rance was going to continue bullying them and probably eventually kill them all because that's just the kinda guy he was, and so Mal couldn't in good conscience just leave them to that.

If you think Mal being involved led to more death than if he wasn't involved, then you have one seriously twisted perception of his character. Nandi won him over because he could relate to her situation. He knows what it's like to have to fight for your home and your family against the aggression of others.

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Friday, April 11, 2014 11:50 AM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


I think Nadia's choice to stay goes to SECEONDS point that she maneuvered Mal into the fight instead of flight. I am assuming Inara was not going to run out on her friend. There for Mal stays.

I also think BYTEMITE you are correct that Mals staying insured a much better future for those left on the planet. Rance had to go.

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Friday, April 11, 2014 2:49 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by MIKER:
I think Nadia's choice to stay goes to SECEONDS point that she maneuvered Mal into the fight instead of flight. I am assuming Inara was not going to run out on her friend. There for Mal stays.

I also think BYTEMITE you are correct that Mals staying insured a much better future for those left on the planet. Rance had to go.



Ooh, good points.

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Friday, April 11, 2014 3:48 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



BYTEMITE
Ooh, good points.







It's fun to remember and discuss. I have watched this stuff alone and had no one to share it with. I don't have friends who are fans.

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 10:51 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

The sooner Rance dies, the lower the body count, but Mal wouldn't do it until too late for Nandi.


Mal isn't prescient either. Nandi's death isn't the result of him deciding that he wanted a good fight and a high body count. It was a result of Nandi's own decision to not take Mal up on his offer to transport all of them off world. Without help, Rance was going to continue bullying them and probably eventually kill them all because that's just the kinda guy he was, and so Mal couldn't in good conscience just leave them to that.

If you think Mal being involved led to more death than if he wasn't involved, then you have one seriously twisted perception of his character. Nandi won him over because he could relate to her situation. He knows what it's like to have to fight for your home and your family against the aggression of others.

Mal does not need prescience to know that Rance, the sociopath and narcissist, will be leading a posse and showing off his shiny laser pistol to burn down the whorehouse. But Mal is too busy doing nothing that night; he will get around to Rance in the morning, too late for Nandi to live.

Mal has got to know Rance is so deranged he will never let his child be raised by Petaline at the whorehouse. Rance will be taking his heir back home. Rance has run his loud mouth to everyone about the child. He has to take the child. And Mal still waits for Rance to make the first move, giving Rance a tactical advantage. Mal can be thankful that Rance is overconfident, along with other faults. Otherwise, Rance would have won, Mal would die.

I got another example where Mal wasn't thinking ahead, but this time his lack of planning worked well. With Rance, Mal was being too slow to kill. With Jayne, he was being too quick. It almost looked like Mal planned Jayne's punishment, but he really only changed his mind on a whim. Mal dumps Jayne into the airlock in the episode Ariel. He certainly taught Jayne a lesson, except Mal's first intent had been to kill Jayne before the crew could stop him. Rance needed killing before he gathered a posse, not Jayne.

If Jayne had been too rattled to say the correct "last words", Mal would have killed him. Jayne had more good sense than Mal, which says Mal is in deep mental trouble.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 11:11 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Second, you sure do put a lot of time and effort into analyzing fictional characters. The only ones deserving of your criticisms are the writers.




wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 11:22 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
Second, you sure do put a lot of time and effort into analyzing fictional characters. The only ones deserving of your criticisms are the writers.

The writers did a very good job. It is the audience that is not seeing Mal for who the writers made him. Maybe there needed to be a half hour show after each episode, like Talking Dead after Walking Dead, to explain it to the viewers, so they don't overly romanticize Mal. He is Jesse James, another romanticized outlaw, of the future. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_James

Jesse James has museums and festivals named for him, just letting you know. Mal will get his.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 11:58 AM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Mal is not a hit man. All he could do as far as Ranse goes is prepare and wait. Ranse has to start the confrentation. When Mal shoots the operative in the movie, the operative had already threatened to blow Serenity out of the sky. That began the confrontation. With patenice in the movie, refusing to leave even after Mal gave her the money back means she to started the confrontation. Do you see a petteren here?

Jayne betrayed Mal and others in the crew. Jayne started the confrontation and Mal felt he could nolonger trust him. Jayne also knew to much to just kick lose. Mal decided to let Jayne live because he showed remorse and shame at what he did. This was when he asked Mal not to tell the others what he did, but instead to make something up.

If the winds blow north so does Mal. What you start, he will finnish.

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 12:24 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by MIKER:
Mal is not a hit man.

Mal did get paid to kill Rance, with Petaline pulling the trigger. Rance was killed execution style. It does look like a hit.
Quote:

All he could do as far as Ranse goes is prepare and wait. Ranse has to start the confrentation.
Really? Only if Mal wants to appear "honorable" to a TV audience. I prefer him "honorable", but his honor costs other people their lives.
Quote:

When Mal shoots the operative in the movie, the operative had already threatened to blow Serenity out of the sky. That began the confrontation.
It looked to me like Mal botched the killing of the Operative, which really wasn't smart for Mal to turn his back on an angry assassin.
Quote:

With patenice in the movie, refusing to leave even after Mal gave her the money back means she to started the confrontation. Do you see a petteren here?
Do you remember Zoe reminding Mal of Patience's trustworthiness? It was food that these two were trading. If you've seen the recent comics where he is short of food, Mal should have saved that food and stayed far away from Patience. But no . . . he needs a confrontation to feel really alive. He is Jesse James of the future. By the way, Frank James, Jesse's brother, was smart enough to retire. Following James would get him killed. Following Mal will get Zoe killed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_James#Outlaw_years_and_retirement
Quote:

Jayne betrayed Mal and others in the crew. Jayne made the first move and Mal could nolonger trust him. Jayne also knew to much to just kick lose. Mal decided to let Jayne live because he showed remorse and shame at what he did. Jayne displayed this when he asked Mal not to tell the others what he did,but instead to make something up.
Do you really think Jayne is trustworthy? In the most recent comic, Jayne is remorseful and shamed. He is still untrustworthy when he is not being closely supervised by Mal.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 12:48 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

But Mal is too busy doing nothing that night; he will get around to Rance in the morning, too late for Nandi to live.


Too busy doing nothing... while everyone else except the pregnancy team is SLEEPING because they want to be in top form for the fight tomorrow. How horrible that Mal is HUMAN just like everyone else around him, what a monster.

Quote:

It almost looked like Mal planned Jayne's punishment, but he really only changed his mind on a whim.

[....]

If Jayne had been too rattled to say the correct "last words", Mal would have killed him.



YEP. Because Jayne just betrayed them and demonstrated that he cared more about money than any of them OR ethics. Mal gave Jayne a second chance because Jayne indicated that he DID care about them after all.

It's official. There's no way you actually believe what you're saying. And if you do, it's not worth arguing with you because it would be impossible to change your mind.

Seriously, the hell with this. I am so tired of putting up with all the constant bickering. Now it's not even contained to the RWED, it's spilled out into Firefly itself. Whatever, see you all in another month when the next comic comes out and I get bored enough again.


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Saturday, April 12, 2014 1:12 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

But Mal is too busy doing nothing that night; he will get around to Rance in the morning, too late for Nandi to live.


Too busy doing nothing... while everyone else except the pregnancy team is SLEEPING because they want to be in top form for the fight tomorrow. How horrible that Mal is HUMAN just like everyone else around him, what a monster.

Quote:

It almost looked like Mal planned Jayne's punishment, but he really only changed his mind on a whim.

[....]

If Jayne had been too rattled to say the correct "last words", Mal would have killed him.



YEP. Because Jayne just betrayed them and demonstrated that he cared more about money than any of them OR ethics. Mal gave Jayne a second chance because Jayne indicated that he DID care about them after all.

It's official. There's no way you actually believe what you're saying. And if you do, it's not worth arguing with you because it would be impossible to change your mind.

Seriously, the hell with this. I am so tired of putting up with all the constant bickering. Now it's not even contained to the RWED, it's spilled out into Firefly itself. Whatever, see you all in another month when the next comic comes out and I get bored enough again.


There is no bickering going on here. Roger Ebert used to go step by step through a movie, with an audience watching, stopping at each critical moment. Then he'd talk about what's happened. We need to do the same with Mal and Jayne in the airlock.

I'm not Ebert, but I can stop a video. When Jayne said, "Make something up," Jayne saved his own life. At that moment Mal changed his mind about killing Jayne. Mal is not the man to give careful thought about killing. There is something seriously wrong with that. Maybe Mal was just pretending to get a confession from Jayne. I think not.

MAL You called the Feds, didn't you?

With that, the fight goes out of Jayne. He knows he's busted. No use in lying to the captain. A long beat, then Jayne tries to explain himself.

JAYNE Money was too good to pass up.

MAL I should've shot you the second I found out what you did.

JAYNE That would've been the right thing.

Jayne takes a long moment, looking at the ramp. He really thinks he's going to die here.

JAYNE (cont'd) What are you gonna tell the others?

MAL About what?

JAYNE 'Bout why I'm dead.

MAL Hadn't thought about it.

JAYNE Do me a favor... (beat, genuine) Make something up. Don't tell them what I did.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 1:50 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


I will use one of your points SECOND to explain my thinking. Mal did not get paid to kill Ranse. All may have believed it would come to that but that was just the outcome. Remember Mal suggesting to Inare in her shuttle he was going to explain it to Ranse. Big difference. I think you may be missing the point of cause and effect in your observations.

Your post of the script is great. It is right there in black and white. Jayne betrayed the crew. Mal confronted him and when Jayne showed true remorse Mal gave him a second chance.(no pun intended).I think your explanations SECOND are perceptions; coming from reading into the minds of the characters, rather than observing any consistency in their behavior. I don't know but( Perhaps you ) SECOND are a conspiracist. What is the obvious never is and events have a much darker and confused meaning lurking beneath. Is that so?

When Mal suggests to Inara in Serenity the movie" your always twisting me about, foging things up". I can see you believing Inara playing a bigger role in Mals thinking than maybe she is. Maybe Mal is just suggesting to her she makes things more difficult.

That said, I haven't seen any insults flying around, but instead differing points of view. Their have been some good arugrements made. Still I don't see you SECOND coming to the tabe as far as agreeing on anything. That's OK.

While I like to discuss these types of things, I agree with BYTEMITE that if we can find no common ground maybe we should give it a rest.

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 2:14 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by MIKER:
When Mal suggests to Inara in Serenity the move " your always twisting me about, foging things up". I can see you believing Inara playing a bigger role in Mals thinking than maybe she is. Maybe Mal is just suggesting to her she makes things more difficult.

That was Mal sayin' he loved her (not that he realized it, 'course). He doesn't like to love. It complicates matters.

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 2:27 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by MIKER:
When Mal suggests to Inara in Serenity the move " your always twisting me about, foging things up". I can see you believing Inara playing a bigger role in Mals thinking than maybe she is. Maybe Mal is just suggesting to her she makes things more difficult.

That was Mal sayin' he loved her (not that he realized it, 'course). He doesn't like to love. It complicates matters.



Yes, CHRISISALL I agree with your point of view on this. Her confusing him did evolve around his love for her.

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 2:55 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by MIKER:
I will use one of your points SECOND to explain my thinking. Mal did not get paid to kill Ranse. All may have believed it would come to that but that was just the outcome. Remember Mal suggesting to Inare in her shuttle he was going to explain it to Ranse. Big difference. I think you may be missing the point of cause and effect in your observations.

Your post of the script is great. It is right there in black and white. Jayne betrayed the crew. Mal confronted him and when Jayne showed true remorse Mal gave him a second chance.(no pun intended).I think your explanations SECOND are perceptions; coming from reading into the minds of the characters, rather than observing any consistency in their behavior. I don't know but( Perhaps you ) SECOND are a conspiracist. What is the obvious never is and events have a much darker and confused meaning lurking beneath. Is that so?

When Mal suggests to Inara in Serenity the movie" your always twisting me about, foging things up". I can see you believing Inara playing a bigger role in Mals thinking than maybe she is. Maybe Mal is just suggesting to her she makes things more difficult.

That said, I haven't seen any insults flying around, but instead differing points of view. Their have been some good arugrements made. Still I don't see you SECOND coming to the tabe as far as agreeing on anything. That's OK.

While I like to discuss these types of things, I agree with BYTEMITE that if we can find no common ground maybe we should give it a rest.

There are good TV shows about a chemist cooking meth who kills, a psycho politician who kills a reporter, a gangster who visits his shrink -- and kills. I can watch Mal when he acts bad. I can like Mal and Firefly without constant, never-ending rationalizing away any and every bad thing Mal does.

Let Mal be bad.

One thing about Mal that separates him from the meth chemist on Breaking Bad and the evil politician on House of Cards and the gangster on The Sopranos is that those people deserve death and Mal deserves life. He is on his way up after hitting the bottom. When he finally becomes a much better man, we will be thrilled for him.

http://www.deviantart.com/art/Firefly-poster-447094042


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 3:06 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by second

One thing about Mal that separates him from the meth chemist on Breaking Bad and the evil politician on House of Cards and the gangster on The Sopranos is that those people deserve death and Mal deserves life. He is on his way up after hitting the bottom. When he finally becomes a much better man, we will be thrilled for him.
End Quote.



Miker
I agree Mal is picking himself up off the ground after the war, also that his humanity remains much in tacked. I would describe Mal as a badass not as a bad man. What you want of Mal for your viewing enjoyment is all about you and not who Mal is.



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Saturday, April 12, 2014 3:25 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
He is on his way up after hitting the bottom. When he finally becomes a much better man, we will be thrilled for him.

As far as I'm concerned, Mal hit bottom on Haven. Book's death was the last straw. NOT killing the Operative was his salvation (in more ways than one). At the end of Serenity, he IS that much better man IMO.

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 3:39 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by second:
He is on his way up after hitting the bottom. When he finally becomes a much better man, we will be thrilled for him.

As far as I'm concerned, Mal hit bottom on Haven. Book's death was the last straw. NOT killing the Operative was his salvation (in more ways than one). At the end of Serenity, he IS that much better man IMO.



Again I agree and am going to exit from this discussion. What I would add is, we have come at this from all angles now and I feel for me it is time to put it to bed.

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Sunday, April 13, 2014 8:14 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by MIKER:
we have come at this from all angles now and I feel for me it is time to put it to bed.

Mal's story is not finished. There are 3 issues left of "Leaves in the Wind". Mal is freeing Zoe from prison. He will show whether he has learned the subtle difference between bad (as in Biblical Ten commandment #6 ) and bad-ass. I want him to be both. I hope he lives up to his name: "Mal", bad in Latin.

Simple rationalizations (“Mal wasn't bad! That was necessary!” “Mal is a really good man in a really bad situation”) are completely against the very spirit of good television. The only person who should rationalize away Mal's badness is Inara, because she loves him. Everybody else, don't, unless you also are in love.

Need a definition of bad-ass? Of formidable strength or skill. Tough and dangerous. Bad-ass is not the same as bad. Mal can become more bad-ass as he becomes less bad. Book became a bigger bad-ass as he became less bad, showing how Mal can change. Read the Shepherd's Tale to see Book's ethical growth from teen to old man. Mal could follow the same path, but much faster. www.darkhorse.com/Books/17-221/Serenity-The-Shepherds-Tale
http://ali-radicali.deviantart.com/art/Malcolm-Reynolds-370390660


http://regeneratedarts.deviantart.com/art/Shepherd-Book-445085983


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, December 26, 2020 12:45 PM

THG


I came across this while on google.

cool

T


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Wednesday, January 5, 2022 11:28 AM

THG






T


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Thursday, January 6, 2022 12:28 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by THG:




T


Not that American national politics is a TV show, but if he doesn't deviate from the apparent plot line, Trump is the main villain for the next few seasons.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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