Serenity travel times in the 'verse by Kapyong

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Serenity travel times in the 'verse

POSTED BY: KAPYONG
UPDATED: Thursday, July 3, 2014 19:31
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Friday, June 20, 2014 9:08 PM

Gday all,

I've been doing some calculations for Serenity's travel time in the 'verse, then I came across some discussion saying Serenity could cross the 'verse in 5.5 days, but this does not seem right.

Here is my working for anyone who wants to check :

Distance s travelled in time t at acceleration a :
s = 1/2 * a * t^2

Solving for time t gives :
s = 1/2 * a * t^2
2 * s / a = t^2
SQRT (2 * s /a) = t

Time to travel 1/2 distance s :
s/2 = 1/2 * a * t^2
s = a * t^2
s/a = t^2
SQRT ( s/a ) = t

To accelerate then turn around 1/2 way and decelerate :
2 * SQRT( s/a ) = t

Given a diameter of 64 trillion m for the 'verse (about 400 AU, from the VIN) and an acceleration of 4.2 G for the Serenity (from Wikipedia) gives the following travel times :

Diameter of the 'verse = 29 days
Radius of the 'verse = 20 days
1 AU = 25 hours
Earth - Moon = 1.7 hours

So a journey from the Rim to the Core would be a around 20 days, depending on exactly what planets were the origin and destination.

Across the entire 'verse would be about 1 month.

Comments welcome...

Kapyong

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Friday, June 20, 2014 10:40 PM

KAPYONG

Gday again,

I should mention that I ignored any maximum speed, and ignored any relativistic effects.

(The journey cross the 'verse has a maximum speed of about 0.17 C.)

Kapyong

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Monday, June 23, 2014 1:14 PM

PENNAUSAMIKE

Quote:
Originally posted by Kapyong:
Gday all,

I've been doing some calculations for Serenity's travel time in the 'verse,
then I came across some discussion saying Serenity could cross the 'verse
in 5.5 days, but this does not seem right.
SNIP
Kapyong

That isn't right.
If you watch the show you'll see that there are often weeks of travel time between stories.
I'm pretty sure the majority opinion is
that there is no FTL (faster than light) travel in the 'verse.
And the 'verse is a big place.

Mike

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Monday, June 23, 2014 7:29 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kapyong:
Gday all,

I've been doing some calculations for Serenity's travel time in the 'verse, then I came across some discussion saying Serenity could cross the 'verse in 5.5 days, but this does not seem right.

Here is my working for anyone who wants to check :

Given a diameter of 64 trillion m for the 'verse (about 400 AU, from the VIN) and an acceleration of 4.2 G for the Serenity (from Wikipedia) gives the following travel times :

Diameter of the 'verse = 29 days
Radius of the 'verse = 20 days
1 AU = 25 hours
Earth - Moon = 1.7 hours

So a journey from the Rim to the Core would be a around 20 days, depending on exactly what planets were the origin and destination.

Across the entire 'verse would be about 1 month.

Comments welcome...

Kapyong

Wikipedia? Really? When have you ever found wikipedia to be correct or accurate?

Joss has deemed there is no FTL travel.

I have posted some threads in the Episode Discussion Board (click on "GO TO BOARDS" to find the table or index.) You may have read my statement. If you dispute any of the assertions within those threads, which explain the basis for those conclusions, feel free to mention them specifically.

For your claim how do you calculate Serenity traveling from Jyiangin to Greenleaf within 10 hours in Safe while Book is bleeding out? That is something like 7Au.

For 5.5 days across verse, there was an assumed velocity limit of about 1/3 Speed of Light for Serenity.

Other travel time references:
BDM: Mal says Lilac to Beaumonde will be 10 hours.
BDM: Mal says it's only "a few hours out" from Haven to Training House, perhaps you conjure these 2 locations are on the same planet.
Pilot Serenity: Arrive Whitefall "2 days later" after leaving Persephone.

Also, QMX apparently also has a product which claims max speed of .10C for any craft, and .07C for Serenity. Although this does not mesh with the rest of the time references in the BDS or BDM, it does conflict with your velocity of .17C.

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Friday, June 27, 2014 11:53 PM

KAPYONG

Gday Mike,

Quote:
Originally posted by pennausamike:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kapyong:
Gday all,

I've been doing some calculations for Serenity's travel time in the 'verse,
then I came across some discussion saying Serenity could cross the 'verse
in 5.5 days, but this does not seem right.
SNIP
Kapyong

That isn't right.
If you watch the show you'll see that there are often weeks of travel time between stories.
I'm pretty sure the majority opinion is
that there is no FTL (faster than light) travel in the 'verse.
And the 'verse is a big place.

Mike

I agree, 5.5 days is far too short, but I found it mentioned in several places, such as here :
http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/27397/how-do-the-ships-in-fir
efly-travel-immense-distances

Not to mention on this site where JEWELSTAITEFAN claims it is about 5.9 days to cross the 'verse.

A quick calculation for acceleration to cross the 'verse in 5.5 days (assuming starting and stopping at rest) gives 116G which seems excessive.

I recall some source saying that the gravity system on Serenity can absorb up to 10G, so 116G is way too much.

At that acceleration, the top speed would be 0.9C - which is huge and would require some relativistic adjustment.

All in all, 5.5 or 5.9 days to cross the verse is way too short.

Kapyong

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Friday, June 27, 2014 11:56 PM

KAPYONG

Double Post.

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Saturday, June 28, 2014 12:27 AM

KAPYONG

Gday JEWELSTAITEFAN,

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kapyong:
Gday all,

I've been doing some calculations for Serenity's travel time in the 'verse, then I came across some discussion saying Serenity could cross the 'verse in 5.5 days, but this does not seem right.

Here is my working for anyone who wants to check :

Given a diameter of 64 trillion m for the 'verse (about 400 AU, from the VIN) and an acceleration of 4.2 G for the Serenity (from Wikipedia) gives the following travel times :

Diameter of the 'verse = 29 days
Radius of the 'verse = 20 days
1 AU = 25 hours
Earth - Moon = 1.7 hours

So a journey from the Rim to the Core would be a around 20 days, depending on exactly what planets were the origin and destination.

Across the entire 'verse would be about 1 month.

Comments welcome...

Kapyong

Wikipedia? Really? When have you ever found wikipedia to be correct or accurate?

Quite often.
There are two or three sources for Serenity's maximum acceleration :

Wikipedia says 4.2 g :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_(Firefly_vessel)

This site has 5.5 g for the 25% faster model 4 :
http://firefly.wikia.com/wiki/Firefly-class_transport_ship

The VIN IIRC says that the gravity system on Serenity can handle up to 10g, suggesting 4 or 5 g is a reasonable number.

I am simply trying to work with the numbers I find.

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Joss has deemed there is no FTL travel.

I didn't say anything about FTL travel. You seem confused.
My comments are about slower than light travel. My speeds are lower than yours.

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
I have posted some threads in the Episode Discussion Board (click on "GO TO BOARDS" to find the table or index.) You may have read my statement. If you dispute any of the assertions within those threads, which explain the basis for those conclusions, feel free to mention them specifically.

Sure, you said :

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
If Serenity takes 10 hours to accelerate to 1/3 Lightspeed

That is an acceleration of about 283 gs ! Way too much. I can't imagine Serenity achieving this acceleration when other sources give 4.2 gs.

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
For your claim how do you calculate Serenity traveling from Jyiangin to Greenleaf within 10 hours in Safe while Book is bleeding out? That is something like 7Au.

7AU at 4.2 G is about 90hours. We all know the series plays fast and loose with times and speeds. Either the times are loose, or the acceleration is wrong.

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
For 5.5 days across verse, there was an assumed velocity limit of about 1/3 Speed of Light for Serenity.

Which requires an acceleration that is about 283 gs ! It also conflicts with your statement :

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
QMX apparently also has a product which claims max speed of .10C for any craft, and .07C for Serenity.

0.33 C is way faster than 0.07C isn't it !
You assumed 1/3 C, but this requires ridiculous accelerations.

If you work with 0.07C, the travel times are more realistic and are broadly in line with my calculations. At 0.07C, assuming quick acceleration, travel time across the entire 'verse is about 26 days - close to my estimate.

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Other travel time references:
BDM: Mal says Lilac to Beaumonde will be 10 hours.
BDM: Mal says it's only "a few hours out" from Haven to Training House, perhaps you conjure these 2 locations are on the same planet.
Pilot Serenity: Arrive Whitefall "2 days later" after leaving Persephone.

No, these numbers do not match well with an acceleration of 4.2g at all.

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Also, QMX apparently also has a product which claims max speed of .10C for any craft, and .07C for Serenity. Although this does not mesh with the rest of the time references in the BDS or BDM, it does conflict with your velocity of .17C.

And it conflicts even more with your ASSUMPTION of 1/3 C, doesn't it! Funny you don't mention that.

Look - all I was trying to do was determine how the figures added up - but either the acceleration is wrong, or the times are wrong.

Kapyong

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Monday, June 30, 2014 8:44 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kapyong:
Gday JEWELSTAITEFAN,
Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kapyong:
Gday all,

I've been doing some calculations for Serenity's travel time in the 'verse, then I came across some discussion saying Serenity could cross the 'verse in 5.5 days, but this does not seem right.

Here is my working for anyone who wants to check :

Given a diameter of 64 trillion m for the 'verse (about 400 AU, from the VIN) and an acceleration of 4.2 G for the Serenity (from Wikipedia) gives the following travel times :

Diameter of the 'verse = 29 days
Radius of the 'verse = 20 days
1 AU = 25 hours
Earth - Moon = 1.7 hours

So a journey from the Rim to the Core would be a around 20 days, depending on exactly what planets were the origin and destination.

Across the entire 'verse would be about 1 month.

Comments welcome...

Kapyong

Wikipedia? Really? When have you ever found wikipedia to be correct or accurate?

Quite often.
There are two or three

non canon
Quote:

sources for Serenity's maximum acceleration :

Wikipedia says 4.2 g :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_(Firefly_vessel)

This site has 5.5 g for the 25% faster model 4 :
http://firefly.wikia.com/wiki/Firefly-class_transport_ship

wikipedia is not written by Joss Whedon, Tim Minear, or other canon sources.
Quote:

The VIN IIRC says that the gravity system on Serenity can handle up to 10g, suggesting 4 or 5 g is a reasonable number.

Indicating the limit of effective gravity generation does not define the max acceleration of the bird, does it?
Even if it does, Joss would use hand-wavium sciencey talk to explain why it does not apply.
The VIN was not written by Joss or Tim. I understand the Map of the Verse was approved by Joss even though it contradicts the verse in the Serenity DVD, and it used VIN to develop from, but I would give more weight to a Joss or Tim writing than VIN. I am willing to use VIN when it does not blatantly conflict with canon.
Quote:

I am simply trying to work with the numbers I find.

I am trying to work with the numbers that fit.
Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Joss has deemed there is no FTL travel.

I didn't say anything about FTL travel. You seem confused.

MIKER had made a reference to FTL. I was trying to help clarify it does not exist here. I was not arguing with you.
Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
I have posted some threads in the Episode Discussion Board (click on "GO TO BOARDS" to find the table or index.) You may have read my statement. If you dispute any of the assertions within those threads, which explain the basis for those conclusions, feel free to mention them specifically.

Sure, you said :
Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
If Serenity takes 10 hours to accelerate to 1/3 Lightspeed

That is an acceleration

Derived from canon sources, and extrapolated.
Quote:

of about 283 gs ! Way too much. I can't imagine Serenity achieving this acceleration when other

non canon
Quote:

sources give 4.2 gs.
Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
For your claim how do you calculate Serenity traveling from Jyiangin to Greenleaf within 10 hours in Safe while Book is bleeding out? That is something like 7Au.

7AU at 4.2 G is about 90hours.

90 hours is not 10 hours. Mal would not confuse 10 hours for 90 hours. Mal would not spend 90 hours taking a lethally bleeding Book away from a hood where one of the best surgeons in the verse is located. Round trip of 180 hours plus surgical time would be over 7.5 days, by which time River witch would have long since been burned at the stake, and we WOULD NOT HAVE any BIG DAMN HEROES.
Be reasonable.
Safe is a broadcast episode. Script also clearly has Mal stating 10 hours.
The script is included in Firefly official Companion, authored by some guy named Joss. Canonical reference is fairly solid unless Joss proclaims "all of that stuff I said and wrote is wrong."
Quote:

We all know the series plays fast and loose with times and speeds.

We ALL KNOW? You may choose to believe this. You may choose to find references from every Tom, Dick, and Harry about how Joss is wrong about this, Joss is wrong about that, Joss is wrong about everything, Joss doesn't know what he's talking about, Joss is too stupid to understand how to write Science Fiction, but that does not mean the rest of us are required to follow your non-canonical path.
There are very few canon references within Firefly and Serenity which are not readily explainable, and the publishing of the 3 volume Companion set does not add much for conflict. Generally, when the written script and broadcast scenes conflict, we can take the broadcast as the more canon reference.
Quote:

Either the times are loose, or the acceleration is wrong.

I can agree that your non-canon reference for acceleration is wrong when attempting to apply it to canon references.
Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
For 5.5 days across verse, there was an assumed velocity limit of about 1/3 Speed of Light for Serenity.

Which requires an acceleration that is about 283 gs ! It also conflicts with your statement :
Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
QMX apparently also has a product which claims max speed of .10C for any craft, and .07C for Serenity.

0.33 C is way faster than 0.07C isn't it !

I pointed out that QMX made a claim, in case you were interested. I have found no canon reference to support their claim.
Quote:

You assumed 1/3 C, but this requires ridiculous accelerations.

1/3 C is an assumption. It is not canon. I am interested in entertaining other data or claims which do not conflict with canon data.
Quote:

If you work with 0.07C, the travel times are

not conforming with canon.
Quote:

more realistic

realistic? This is taking place on a space ship, dear
Quote:

and are broadly in line with my calculations. At 0.07C, assuming quick acceleration, travel time across the entire 'verse is about 26 days - close to my estimate.

26 days. That doesn't seem to fit much of the show, more than a week between episodes.

Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Other travel time references:
BDM: Mal says Lilac to Beaumonde will be 10 hours.
BDM: Mal says it's only "a few hours out" from Haven to Training House, perhaps you conjure these 2 locations are on the same planet.
Pilot Serenity: Arrive Whitefall "2 days later" after leaving Persephone.

No, these numbers do not match well with an acceleration of 4.2g at all.

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Also, QMX apparently also has a product which claims max speed of .10C for any craft, and .07C for Serenity. Although this does not mesh with the rest of the time references in the BDS or BDM, it does conflict with your velocity of .17C.

And it conflicts even more with your ASSUMPTION of 1/3 C, doesn't it! Funny you don't mention that.

Look - all I was trying to do was determine how the figures added up - but either the acceleration is wrong, or the times are wrong.

Kapyong

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Tuesday, July 1, 2014 4:10 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Ran out of time yesterday.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kapyong:
Gday JEWELSTAITEFAN,

and are broadly in line with my calculations. At 0.07C, assuming quick acceleration, travel time across the entire 'verse is about 26 days - close to my estimate.

26 days. That doesn't seem to fit much of the show, more than a week between episodes.
Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Other travel time references:
BDM: Mal says Lilac to Beaumonde will be 10 hours.
BDM: Mal says it's only "a few hours out" from Haven to Training House, perhaps you conjure these 2 locations are on the same planet.
Pilot Serenity: Arrive Whitefall "2 days later" after leaving Persephone.

No, these numbers do not match well with an acceleration of 4.2g at all.

Big Damn Movie Serenity has the scene with Mal stating 10 hours, and "a few hours out" and IIRC both are in script of Official Companion.
Pilot Serenity has the scene where Book states he's been on ship 2 days while on Whitefall, and IIRC there is also "2 days later" subscript. Plus the script states so.
BDM Serenity Cinema release, Pilot Serenity broadcast, and both of their accompanying scripts, included in the Companion volumes, are all written by some guy named Joss, and reserve canon legitimacy over whatever source you find quoting 4.2g or any other number which does not conform to the canon references.
This right here should tell you your number is wrong, incorrect, in error, and needs to have something more conforming before you progress any further.
Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Also, QMX apparently also has a product which claims max speed of .10C for any craft, and .07C for Serenity. Although this does not mesh with the rest of the time references in the BDS or BDM, it does conflict with your velocity of .17C.

And it conflicts even more with your ASSUMPTION of 1/3 C, doesn't it!

1/3 C is an assumption, correct. It meshes with the rest of the time references in the verse, where the .10C and .07C do not. I did mention this. Your .17C also does not mesh. I noted the .10C and .07C in case you wanted to follow the path of those figures and depart from the references included in the shows and film.
Quote:

Funny you don't mention that.

I did provide information on how to get linkys for my posts and discussion which mention and introduce the 1/3 C assumption. I also provided you with information about data which conflicts with what I have conjured. I provide both for you to discard or incorporate as you desire.
Quote:

Look - all I was trying to do was determine how the figures added up - but either the

non-canon
Quote:

acceleration is wrong, or the

repeatedly sourced in canon

Quote:

times are wrong.

Kapyong

Agreed. The non-canon figures for acceleration are not compatible with the time references in canon, at least when infused with distance data from Map of the Verse.
I prefer to accept the repeatedly occurring time references sourced in canon rather than any random non-canon acceleration figures dreamt up by any random Tom, Dick, or Harry.
When forcing a choice between either A. non-canon acceleration or B. Canon times, I choose B.

Perhaps the Verse is too large, and the orbits and planets need to be shrunk to a scale that would fit the acceleration figures you are comfortable with.

Do you have a solution?
I would suggest you concentrate on Safe. If you can get some distance and acceleration numbers to fit 10 hours it would be an excellent place to start.

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Thursday, July 3, 2014 7:31 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

In Shindig, Santos is one day, then Persephone is 10am next day. Minimum 13.6Au apart. How do you figure matching that canon with your acceleration data?

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