GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

The Great Jayne Debate!

POSTED BY: KEF
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 4, 2002 07:05
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Monday, November 18, 2002 11:51 AM

KEF


Ok, a new thread here to continue with the debate that began in the "ARIEL" thread (which I can't find at the moment.)

Basically this:

SOME people who saw "Ariel" believe that Jayne changed his mind about turning in River and Simon while they were in the diagnostic room. He then tried to hurry them out the back way before the Feds showed up, but they got caught anyway. (Those of you subscribing to this theory please correct anything I got wrong, and/or elaborate.)

OTHER people who watched "Ariel" (myself included) did not think that Jayne changed his mind in the in the diagnostic room. Instead he continued to lead R & S to where the Feds were waiting.

I'll start the debate by recapping two points I made in an earlier post:

1) While they were in custody, River went into her "They took Christmas away . . . nothing left but coal." rant. It would seem that she's talking about Jayne - referring to to the fact that Jayne lost his reward because the Fed officer stole it from him by doublecrossing him. This doesn't work if Jayne had already decided to forego the reward before they were captured. On the other hand, she could be referring to the Fed guy, who wasn't going to be getting the reward either. Except that we wasn't going to just lose it and be left with "coal" - he was going to be killed. Plus River is talking in the past tense- about something that's already happened. So it doesn't quite fit unless she was referring to Jayne. (And don't tell me she was just talking gibberish!)

2) If Jayne HAD changed his mind in the diagnostic room, then I think it robs a bit of the powerfulness from the final scene between him and Mal. And it's here at this point that I see, in Jayne's face, the change take place inside him. I didn't see that in the exam room.

I've watched the tape NUMEROUS times now, and both interpretations of the events have merit.

We've got three weeks to kill here people until the next episode - let's have at it!

Seriously, I'm finding this VERY intriguing. I'd really like to hear what people have to say.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 12:00 PM

EVANS


Quote:

Originally posted by kef:
1) While they were in custody, River went into her "They took Christmas away . . . nothing left but coal." rant.


I read an interesting speculation on another board, that river was describing events in Jayne's childhood, which is what freaked him out. I think it's interesting and may fit, because aside from popping out with the word "pretentious" in Shindig, Jayne is not particularly insightful.
Quote:

2) If Jayne HAD changed his mind in the diagnostic room, then I think it robs a bit of the powerfulness from the final scene between him and Mal.

Agree.

m.

------------------------------------------------
"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL

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Monday, November 18, 2002 12:16 PM

DELVO


AAAKHCK! Just when I thought you'd gotten it, Kef!

When they left the diagnostic room, Simon didn't say a word about the route being changed, only the timing. And Jayne later commented that he wanted to go out the front because they already knew that way, and could get lost going out the back. (They only ended up going out the back way because of River running off.)

This means Jayne was taking them out the front, as planned. He was just doing it earlier than planned.

About River's ramblings. they're like prophecies; you can make sense of them later on, maybe... or you can never figure it out... or there will come a time when they make sense, but not yet... or there are bound to be several different ways to interpret any one of them that are equally valid yet equally imaginative and evidentially baseless. Her babble, therefor, along with any particular interpretatin of it, is not evidence of outside things; rather, outside things are necessary to shed light on it. It's sort of like the principle in science that no idea, no matter how good it seemed, trumps direct observation; ideas have to be fitted to the observations. We have to interpret her lines in light of other events, not say that other events were one thing or another because her lines supposedly say so.

And I still love the last scene in my version, because Mal must know (even though he didn't say it) that Jayne unbetrayed them and that's why he was running with them, which would explain why he let Jayne live... and because, rather than dulling Jayne's behavior in that final scene, this just means that the final scene just casts his earlier behavior in a new light (some of which reflects back).

And I didn't need retrospect from later scenes to see Jayne rushing them out early to escape. I just needed that to explain my case here. To me, it was obvious from two things about the rushing-out-of-the-room scene all along. One is Jayne's behavior; he is clearly rushing, even to himself, like he's worried about something. The other is the simple fact that if Jayne's already planned for the Tams to be picked up, he can just wait for it to happen; he doesn't need to change plans unless he's changed his objectives.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 12:34 PM

QUEENTIYE


I've been reading this debate and I'm finally ready to chime in and say "I agree with Delvo"...

Quote:

Originally posted by Delvo:
When they left the diagnostic room, Simon didn't say a word about the route being changed, only the timing. And Jayne later commented that he wanted to go out the front because they already knew that way, and could get lost going out the back. (They only ended up going out the back way because of River running off.)



Correct.

Quote:

This means Jayne was taking them out the front, as planned. He was just doing it earlier than planned.


Correct again.

Quote:

About River's ramblings. they're like prophecies; you can make sense of them later on, maybe... or you can never figure it out... or there will come a time when they make sense, but not yet... or there are bound to be several different ways to interpret any one of them that are equally valid yet equally imaginative and evidentially baseless. Her babble, therefor, along with any particular interpretatin of it, is not evidence of outside things; rather, outside things are necessary to shed light on it. It's sort of like the principle in science that no idea, no matter how good it seemed, trumps direct observation; ideas have to be fitted to the observations. We have to interpret her lines in light of other events, not say that other events were one thing or another because her lines supposedly say so.


Um...o.k. but I think it's just as easy to acknowledge the Christmas thing as meaning what we already think it means - Jayne doesn't get the reward. The fact that "they took away Christmas" is a very interesting statement... I personally (in light of believing that Jayne "unbetrayed" Simon & River) think that that statement refers not to them NOT giving Jayne the reward, but them making it no fun to betray the Tams in the first place. The fun is what got taken away - the coal in place of toys is symbolic of that. Jayne couldn't have enjoyed that reward no matter what, and River called him on it (and it freaked him out, because you don't have to be so insightful to know truth when it's spoken to you).

Quote:

And I still love the last scene in my version, because Mal must know (even though he didn't say it) that Jayne unbetrayed them and that's why he was running with them, which would explain why he let Jayne live... and because, rather than dulling Jayne's behavior in that final scene, this just means that the final scene just casts his earlier behavior in a new light (some of which reflects back).


I don't know if Mal knows that Jayne unbetrayed them. He doesn't have to know. The initial betrayal is bad enough that being sorry for it later doesn't make up for it. So,both Mal's behavior (even if he DOESN'T know that Jayne unbetrayed the Tams), and Jayne's (who does know that he changed his mind, but can't unknow that he set up the betrayal in the first place) make sense in the final scene. AND... this interpretation has the benefit of explaining Jayne crossing his heart and all of that swearing that he did no wrong... he was trying to forget that the first sin wasn't obliterated by his subsequent change of heart...

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Monday, November 18, 2002 2:24 PM

KEF


Cool, Delvo! You've stated your case admirably.

It's not a question of "getting it" though . . . this is like a courtroom trial, where the two sides use the same pool of facts to argue two differing versions of the same event.

So far you've failed to convince me "beyond the shadow of a doubt", as they say.

I strongly disagree with you about River. From what I've seen in these episodes, the things River says ARE suposed to have meaning. I believe the show's writers intend most of them to have immediate meaning. They aren't baseless, or to be maybe interpreted at some later time.

There still seems to be a world of confusion on one or both of our parts about this front/back thing.

"Jayne later commented that he wanted to go out the front" is inaccurate. The fight between Jayne, Simon and the guards takes place in a holding cell. When the guards have been overpowered, they come out of the cell. Jayne turns one way, R & S the other. Simon asks "Where are you going?" Jayne replies "Going out the way we came in." In other words, back through the room where they originally sat handcuffed with the Fed officer who doublecrossed Jayne.

This means Jayne was taking them out the front, as planned. He was just doing it earlier than planned. Wrong! Jayne stated in the diagnostic room that he was taking them out back. (See quotes further down.)

The fact that Jayne appears worried about something as he's rushing them from the diagnostic room can be explained by the fact that Jayne is always nervous when he's around Feds. As has been stated in earlier episodes. ("This place gives me an uncomfortableness.") To me he looked worried from the moment they entered the hospital.

Side note: I love the bit when they wheeled the "bodies" into the hospital, expecting to be questioned, and the nurse just waves them through. But Jayne just has to say his line anyway, after going to all that trouble memorizing it!

I also love that look of sisterly pride on River's face after watching Simon save that patient.


"if Jayne's already planned for the Tams to be picked up" -There's no indication (beyond how it would fit well into our respective theories) as to whether the Feds were coming to get the Tams, or whether Jayne was supposed to lead the Tams to the Feds. Neither of us can claim this point.

Looking at the diagnostic room scene again . . . after Simon finishes explaining what he's discovered about River's brain, Jayne says "Well that's fascinating. Let's get moving." Simon says, "We still have 20 minutes." Jayne: "Wrong. Plan changed when you were out. We're meetin' out the back way in five." To me, as I listen to the tape, Jayne doesn't sound like like someone who just made a major decision a few moments earlier not to turn in the Tams after all.

The only thing I definitely CAN'T explain is why he wanted to get them out earlier than planned, You have me on that one!

This is good! I'm enjoying this, I hope you are too.

Anyone else, you're welcome to weigh in on either side . . .


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Monday, November 18, 2002 2:41 PM

SHINEY


Quote:

Originally posted by kef:
The only thing I definitely CAN'T explain is why he wanted to get them out earlier than planned



My impression was that he wanted to minimize the chance of running into Mal and Zoe. Forcing Simon & River to leave earlier than planned would (in his mind) give Jayne time to sell S & R out to the Feds, collect his reward, and come up with some story/excuse before meeting back up with the others.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 2:49 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by QueenTiye:
Um...o.k. but I think it's just as easy to acknowledge the Christmas thing as meaning what we already think it means - Jayne doesn't get the reward. The fact that "they took away Christmas" is a very interesting statement... I personally (in light of believing that Jayne "unbetrayed" Simon & River) think that that statement refers not to them NOT giving Jayne the reward, but them making it no fun to betray the Tams in the first place. The fun is what got taken away - the coal in place of toys is symbolic of that. Jayne couldn't have enjoyed that reward no matter what, and River called him on it (and it freaked him out, because you don't have to be so insightful to know truth when it's spoken to you).


Oooo, interesting! Yeah, that would definitely work, in the "unbetrayal" theory.

Yup, you could see Jayne was freaking when realized River was talking about him.

Quote:

... this interpretation has the benefit of explaining Jayne crossing his heart and all of that swearing that he did no wrong... he was trying to forget that the first sin wasn't obliterated by his subsequent change of heart...


Hmmm . . .

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Monday, November 18, 2002 3:08 PM

CORRIELLE


I believe I come down on the side of Jayne never changing his mind. While watching the episode for the first time, I was really hoping that he'd done just that, but the way that the Feds caught up with them was just too convinient. He may have felt bad about it, but I don't think he ever changed his mind.

One thought on Jayne wanting to get them out early. If he IS going to turn them in, and I think he is, he's going to need to avoid having the captain come looking for them. So, he wants to have the Tams all nice and captured before everyone was supposed to rendesvous. (did I spell that right? probably not.) Also, I tend to take anything Jayne says to Simon about why he's doing things with a grain of salt. I mean, Jayne had to say SOMETHING to get them to leave early, didn't he?

Just a note: That above paragraph made a lot more sense in my head. Shoot holes in it all you like... I won't mind.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 3:29 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Corrielle:
Just a note: That above paragraph made a lot more sense in my head. Shoot holes in it all you like... I won't mind.


No, it's fine. You and Shiney answered the one question I couldn't. Thanks!

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Monday, November 18, 2002 6:18 PM

GAHERIS


I will have to put a second to QueenTiye's idea. Tentative second but there it is. I believe Jayne STARTED having second thoughts about turning in the Tams during the diagnostics. He's shows an unusual interest in what happened to River and in the Station it could be interpreted the way QueenTiye said (The reward not being fun). However I think after the diagnostics Jayne still wants to turn the Tams in... after all he takes them out the back and says "Change of plans" to Simon. He only completely unbetrays the Tams after it's clear he won't be getting out of the predicament without his own efforts.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 6:21 PM

FRANKIGAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Shiney:

My impression was that he wanted to minimize the chance of running into Mal and Zoe. Forcing Simon & River to leave earlier than planned would (in his mind) give Jayne time to sell S & R out to the Feds, collect his reward, and come up with some story/excuse before meeting back up with the others.



Thats just what I thought happened. I think he wanted to get the reward but at the same time he wanted to remain apart of Serenity's crew.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 7:20 PM

KEF


I want to further clarify my thoughts about River's rant. The three of them are sitting there, and Jayne tells Simon to shut up because he needs to think. A few moments later River says, "They took away Christmas . . . "

What I think is happening is that River is reading Jayne's SUBCONCIOUS mind. She's getting an emotional impression of what Jayne is feeling subconciously, and interpreting it the best way she can.

This possibly fits in with what Simon said in the diagnostic room about how her brain is working now, since they stripped her amygdala. - "She feels everything. She can't not."


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Monday, November 18, 2002 11:26 PM

ESME


I think Jayne made contact with the alliance after River stabbed him (for fashion? "you'd look better in red" I think it was?)
Then we find out he's betraying them via the card-swipey-screen thing...(sorry, I'm not technical) and as soon as we know what he's up to, he starts showing doubts about going through with it.
The tension all this created was wonderful, I really thought that Jayne was a goner.
However, I don't think he was going to back down. He was feeling kinda bad, but went through with it anyway.
You Jayne lovers...you've all seen "My Bodyguard", right?

just call me...amygdala

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 12:31 AM

WHISKEYMESSIAH


Two things to say:

First - Jayne is anout as mercenary as as any man could be. Just watch "Jaynestown" and see how he sold out his first (?) partner to four years locked in a small box.

Second - He is a thief and possibly a habitual liar. It doesn't seem to me that he cares for anyone else but himself.

With that said, I have to say that it is highly unlikely that he had any second thoughts about turning in Simon and River. He might have felt some remorse over it, but to me Jayne is the perfect example of that old saying "No honor among thieves"....


What I find interesting is how Mal seemed ready to have Jayne sucked out the airlock up until the point that Jayne asked Mal to come up with a story to cover his betrayal. With this statement Jayne actually becomes more human - he doesn't want the others to have negative feelings for him after he dies. Jaybe is not smart, and he does not seem to care for anyone on Serenity except himself, but here he shows that he is not totally incapable of some basic human emotion. I liked how Mal was able to read something in those "last words" and see some possibility of redemption. Besides that, who else are you going to get to do the crappy jobs (hanging out of cargo doors, jumping onto moving trains, killing people, etc.).

The Whiskey Messiah

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 3:08 AM

EVANS


Agree with WhiskeyMessiah.

Also, here's a word. The unword "unbetray" is making me climb the wall. Found this, never knew it before: "tergiversate," to change one's mind or allegiance. Since this is a bulletin board we won't have to worry about pronouncing it, thank the gods. Roget lists nouns as tergiversation; reversal; about-face, volte-face (626.1).

As I said earlier, Jayne didn't care about what he did. He cared that he didn't get the money, that Simon misinterpreted his actions, that mal caught him out. He wasn't sorry about what he did; he was sorry he got caught.

As for asking Mal to make something up about why Jayne died: Jayne was cowering as he faced death; he was cringing.

m.

------------------------------------------------
"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:11 AM

QUEENTIYE


Quote:

Originally posted by Evans:
Also, here's a word. The unword "unbetray" is making me climb the wall. Found this, never knew it before: "tergiversate," to change one's mind or allegiance. Since this is a bulletin board we won't have to worry about pronouncing it, thank the gods. Roget lists nouns as tergiversation; reversal; about-face, volte-face (626.1).



Like (and knew) the word. BUT... I like un-betray better right now - it's more to the point, and a lot more fun...

I like everyone's arguments about Jayne, and I in fact agree with most. I do agree that Jayne is as mercenary as they come. BUT... he isn't without human decency and feeling. My evidence?

1. He acknowledges that Simon came up with a good plan. Didn't have too, could simply keep that thought to himself. But he found something to respect, and respected it.

2. Jaynestown - confronted with people practically worshipping him, he tried to dissuade them from the practice. Good mercenary behavior would have been to make some money from this turn of events.

3. Confronted with a kid losing his life for his sake, he is shaken a bit...

4. Again he shows a little bit of awe over Simon's doctoring skill.

5. When he dumped one partner to join Mal, he didn't kill the guy, he shot him in the leg. Might have been cleaner to kill the guy (this one, of course, could be a simple case of not wanting Mal to back out of the deal).

My point is that we've seen enough of Jayne to know that he is coarse, but his humanity is intact. It isn't a stretch to realize that turning over even creepy people like River and Simon to people who could do what the Alliance did to River is going too far, even for Jayne. To have turned them over (in face of what Jayne learned about the Alliance enroute to the betrayal) would have been just as beyond Jayne as it would have been for Jayne to have killed his partner to sign up with Mal, or for him to have made a bit of money out of the townspeople mistaken interpretation of events.

All of this, of course, is my humble opinion...

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:51 AM

EVANS


I respect your well-considered opinion.

Quote:

1. He acknowledges that Simon came up with a good plan

He may also have been trying to mislead Mal. He had already made arrangements with the Feds (I love that - "the Feds").
Quote:

2. Jaynestown - confronted with people practically worshipping him, he tried to dissuade them

I think that at first he wanted them NOT to call attention to him, he didn't want to get pinched by the Man on that eerie-ass day.
Quote:

3. Confronted with a kid losing his life for his sake, he is shaken a bit...

Yes, and thoroughly confused. It isn't what he would have done, ever (he thinks?)
Quote:

4. Again he shows a little bit of awe over Simon's doctoring skill.

Yes. Maybe. Again, a complex brute. What IS he thinking?
Quote:

5. When he dumped one partner to join Mal, he didn't kill the guy, he shot him in the leg.

Gotta keep the guy alive, in case the deal with Mal doesn't work out.

I sure have enjoyed your post.

m.

------------------------------------------------
"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 7:10 AM

RADEGUND


Quote:

Originally posted by Corrielle:
One thought on Jayne wanting to get them out early. If he IS going to turn them in, and I think he is, he's going to need to avoid having the captain come looking for them. So, he wants to have the Tams all nice and captured before everyone was supposed to rendesvous.



Here's another idea: Jayne changes his mind in the diagnostic room. He tries to hustle Simon and River out early in order to avoid the Feds who are on their way. Unfortunately he's not fast enough and they get caught in the stairwell.

Radegund

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 8:41 AM

DOCEBO


i have been thinking of Jayne's motive for turning simon and river in for a couple of days now and i don't think that money was his primary reason. After watching the last scene of ariel and the previous eps I think that Jayne really thought he was doing the crew(and more importantly himself, don't mean to make him look un-selfish) a favor by turning them in.

He states in the opening of ariel and in safe that life would be easier for them all without the "two most wanted on board".

At the end of Ariel he says "its not like i betrayed you" or something to that effect. It seems to me that he thought he was helping the crew wether they wanted to be or not.

So yeah anyway i think he really thought that he was just betraying the sibs and that money was really just a bonus for being rid of them.

As for "un-betraying" them I fall into the "he didn't un-betray them" category. Although he def felt remorse after seeing what they did to River.

-Docebo

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 10:20 AM

SENSOU


Quote:

Originally posted by esme:
The tension all this created was wonderful, I really thought that Jayne was a goner.



Based on the following 2 facts: 1.) Alec Baldwin only signed up for 8 episodes; and 2.) Arial is to the best of my knowledge the eighth episode; I spent the whole episode waiting for Jayne to die, be shot or something. But being sucked out of an airlock? ::shivers:: OTOH, he deserved it!

Sensou
Who will never, ever, ever forgive Jayne!

Sweet is love when all is sane
Sweet is death to end the pain
Cruel is death when all is well
Cruel is love when all is hell

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 10:27 AM

ESME


Quote:


Sensou
Who will never, ever, ever forgive Jayne!



Be careful...Joss LOVES to redeem a bad boy and reveal his heart of gold. I also think that Jayne formed a new bond with Simon as they killed together.

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 11:13 AM

REYVNDARKNIGHT


Consider this, if Jayne had not changed his mind and intended to betray Simon and River, wouldn't River had reacted more violently to Jayne's betrayal? She would have read his mind and intentions and reacted violently.

Instead, she sensed the nearby Alliance people and simply reacted to their intent.

I happen to like Jayne (with Book and Inara higher in the priority chain). Though Jayne tends to be a selfish and self-centered character, I think that Whedon intends part of the intial episodes of the series to be a way for Jayne's character to change from his selfish nature. "Ariel" is the first step in that change.

And I am sure if River prying into his grey matter wasn't the first step in the direction of putting some sense into his thick skull, maybe that big a$$ wrench Mal used against his head did!

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 11:55 AM

BOBKNAPTOR


Quote:

Originally posted by Thegn:
Well, many of you seem to be applying your own assumptions to Jayne. In the end though, the character isn't defined by what you think the character is, but rather by that characters actions. And the question still remains, why Jayne chose the moment of discovering the extent of River's injuries to suddenly decide that it was time to leave. The only way your assumptions work is if you dismiss this fact. As a scientist, in my line of work one would be remiss to haphazardly dismiss even the smallest detail. I have also found that a similar line of thinking is very helpful in analysis of good literature. So I guess the question must come down to how much faith you have in the writers to describe the actions of the characters. Some past episodes, I believe, suggest that one should not underestimate them.



I'm not sure your logic here is fool-proof. You say the only way to believe that Jayne didn't change his mind about turning them in is to ignore the fact that he rushed them out of the room early. Since the show didn't show us the full extent of the plan he made with the Feds, we have no way of knowing if he was trying to sneak the Tams away before they showed up to pinch them, or if that was the plan all along, to meet in the back stairwell, so that it could look like an accident.

I did see the look of disgust on his face when he realized what they did to River, but in the end, I think it didn't effect his decision to sell them out. Yes, the alliance did terrible things to River, but her behavior had been endangering the crew, not to mention she had attacked and in my opinion, embarressed Jayne. I think reading sympathy into him is a mistake. Shame, yes. Guilt, sure. But I don't think he ever felt any sympathy for their plight. Only a desire to make some money, and when that failed, save face.

______________
Mal: I never back down from a fight!
Inara: Yes you do! You do all the time!
Mal: Well, yeah.... but I'm not backin down from this.

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 12:48 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by esme:
I think Jayne made contact with the alliance after River stabbed him (for fashion? "you'd look better in red" I think it was?)


Someone pointed out somewhere that River was actually slashing the Blue Sun logo on Jayne's shirt. Apparently it's in the actual script. It's the same reason she tore the labels off the cans in Shindig. (is that the right episode?)

Maybe River was saying that the Blue Sun logo looked better in red- bloodstained- i.e. they have blood on their hands. Think about it.

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:29 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Thegn:
Nonetheless, the fact still remains that the only way to assume that Jayne didn't change the plan is to dismiss the fact that he did insist upon leaving only after discovering the extent of River's injuries. You can try to justify Jayne's position or play games with what we may not know all you want, but in the end you're only working on your speculation or interpretation. There are an infinite possibly of things one can pretend might have transpired out of view of the audience, but the fact is that the writers did not choose those events to show us and are therefore immaterial. What the writers did choose to show us was Jayne changing his mind after discovering what the Alliance had done to River. Of all the ways the writers might have fashioned that scene, they chose to write it that way. That is not speculation or assumption. It is fact. Jayne's character is not defined by what the audiences pretends might have happened while they weren't watching. Jayne's character is defined by what did happen while we were watching. And the only way to arrive at the conclusion that Jayne never changed his plan is to dismiss the fact that Jayne insisted upon leaving only after discovering the extent of River's injuries.


Okay, here's the thing- The fact that Jayne TOLD Simon and River that they had to leave early only after hearing about River does not necessarily mean that that's when he DECIDED to do it. Rushing them out early could have been part of his plan all along - in order to give himself time to take them to the Feds, collect his reward money, deal with any complications, and make it back to Mal, Zoe and Wash waiting at the med vehicle. (He could then claim to Mal that someone recognized the Tams and alerted the guards, but he himself "managed" to get away.) He gave himself 20 minutes because he knew Mal would come looking for them if he took too long getting back to the vehicle. The reason he didn't tell Simon about the "change in plans" earlier was because he didn't want to give Simon time to contact Mal about the change in plans. (Remember- that was exactly what Simon wanted to do when Jayne informed him they had to leave now.)

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:30 PM

RHEA


Put me in the "Jayne doesn't un-betray them" category.

I think that the reason Jayne hurried them out early is that making an earlier rendezvous with the Alliance stooges was the only way he could be sure of betraying them and collecting the $$$ BEFORE Mal caught him.

I've never had any sense that he changed his mind - only that he wavered a little. And that he felt bad afterward - and I'm absolutely certain that's why Mal didn't space him.

I'll have to think about River's Christmas spiel. Especially interesting was her remark about not looking in the closet because "it's not in the spirit of the season." (From memory) I assumed she was referring to Jayne, too, although sometimes it's hard to decode Riverspeak.

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:33 PM

ESME


Dear Kef...I think you're dead on.

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:41 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by esme:
Dear Kef...I think you're dead on.


Thank you.

And I really like DOCEBO's idea about why Jayne betrayed in the first place.

Man, this is all great stuff. You guys rock!

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:56 PM

RHEA


^Actually, we don't know *when* Jayne decided what time they needed to leave. All we know is what he said - that there'd been a change of plans while they were unconscious.

Half of us saw one thing, half saw another - that tells me that it's in the eye of the beholder.

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 2:27 PM

BOBKNAPTOR


Rhea And Kef... Thank you! I'm glad I'm not speaking in tongues here and that someone else got what I was trying to say.

Thegn... you saying that he made the decision to leave early when he found out what had happened is just as much an inference as us saying he had the plan all along. You don't know when he made the decision, only when he announced it. He may have made the decision to leave early and not give Simon any warning much earlier. Or he may have made the decision right then because he felt so horrible about the mess the alliance put poor River through. Both are guesses, and unless you have seen a script where the writer says "Jayne realizes he was wrong and decides not to turn in the Tams, so they must leave early" then you don't know any better than the rest of us.

I know that sounds bitchy, and it's not intended to be an attack. Just a comment on the way you structure your argument. You are dismissing our theory saying we are making up what happens off camera, while your theory is based on fact because you saw what happened. When, in fact, your "facts" are just as much speculation as ours.

______________
It was like the soviet police if they cared about shoes.

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 2:44 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Thegn:
This is just your speculation. You are speculating on Jayne’s state of mind to force the story to adhere to your perception of Jayne’s character. No where in the episode did Jayne ever say that he needed to give himself 20 minutes for anything. So that is just an assumption you are applying. It is not in the story. It is not something the writers conveyed. That’s something you made up.

Once again, in order to assume that Jayne didn't change his plan one MUST dismiss the FACT that Jayne chose to leave only after discovering the extent of River's injuries. That is a fact.


Thegn, your facts are also just speculations. The FACT is, we're BOTH speculating, based on what we each think we're seeing.

No where in the episode did Jayne ever say that he needed to give himself 20 minutes for anything. Absolutely true. But then why would he need to? Characters usually don't explain to the audience everything they're doing, do they?. By the same token, at no time does Jayne say when- or why- he made the decision to leave early, either. You're ASSUMING that he made that decision because of River's diagnosis only because he didn't announce it until afterward. You can not state as a FACT when Jayne made his decision simply because you THINK you know why he made the decision.

You're assuming that Jose Molina wrote the timing of Jayne's announcement of the plan change in order to show when he made his decision. And that he did so in order to paint Jayne a certain way. What is your basis for your assumtion?

I'm claiming that Jose Molina wrote the timing that way for a simpler reason- so as not to leave any plot holes in Jayne's plan to turn in the Tams.

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:09 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Thegn:
Finally, someone is beginning to understand. You're halfway there. You just need to stop embellishing it so much. That is not my assumption. I'm not assuming anything. On one case, you have to come up with an unwritten explanation to a 20 minute discrepancy and in the other case you don't. One conclusion conserves the storyline the other one doesn't. Which one the writers meant, I don't know. All I am telling you is that in your conclusion, you must dismiss the sequence of these events, and in the other case you don't have to, and as a result of that dismissal you have a 20 minute discrepancy for which you must make up an explanation, because the explanation for it is not there.


You're halfway there. I don't understand what this means.

You just need to stop embellishing it so much. Embellishing what? Jayne was going to turn in the Tams, correct? My contention is that that's ALL that happened. He did it. Period. End of story. To me THAT'S the simplest explanation to everything we saw happen.

in your conclusion, you must dismiss the sequence of these events I'm NOT dismissing the sequence of events. I don't know why you keep saying that. All I'm saying is I don't understand why you've put this huge significance in it, why you think it MUST mean something. So you've come up with this theory that Jayne changed his mind about turning in the Tams. Which sounds like an embellishment to me.

you have a 20 minute discrepancy for which you must make up an explanation, because the explanation for it is not there. ??? The explanation is that they left early so Jayne can turn them in. Period. Why aren't you getting this?

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:23 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Thegn:
It’s NOT explained by the facts of the story. It must be assumed by the audience.


And what's wrong with that? That's how good writers write. They don't clutter up the story by purposely explaining every single thing. They figure that we're intellegent enough to make obvious assumptions.

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:26 PM

SHINY


Quote:

Originally posted by Thegn:
Nonetheless, the fact still remains that the only way to assume that Jayne didn't change the plan is to dismiss the fact that he did insist upon leaving only after discovering the extent of River's injuries.



He wanted to get Simon and River to the Feds with as little fuss as possible. Which is easier? 1) Tell Simon earlier that Mal changed the plans, and there isn't time for Simon to use the equipment to examine River, or 2) wait until Simon at least got to do an initial examination and collect some data, so Simon would go along without arguing, demanding to stay, etc.

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:28 PM

SHINY


Quote:

Originally posted by esme:
Quote:


Sensou
Who will never, ever, ever forgive Jayne!



Be careful...Joss LOVES to redeem a bad boy and reveal his heart of gold. I also think that Jayne formed a new bond with Simon as they killed together.



I don't think Simon killed his guard, just rendered him unconscious. When they got to the room, Mr. Blue Hands #1 reports that one guard is dead, and Mr. Blue Hands #2 says the other one is still alive...then kills him with the sonic brain melter device.

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:38 PM

SHINY


Quote:

Originally posted by Thegn:

The sequence of events is

A. Simon reports the extent of River's injuries.

Then

B. Jayne insists on leaving.

Now the possible conclusions:

1. Jayne changed his mind about turning Simon and River in. A following B makes sense, if it suggests Jayne is acting on pitty for River or disdain for the Alliance.

2. Jayne didn't change his mind. A has no connection to B. In other words you dismiss the sequence of those events, and thereby leaving 20 minutes early is just an unexplained event. Because no where in the story does it explain why Jayne felt he needed to leave 20 minutes early. So if you accept this conclusion you must speculate to explain this, because it's not in the story.




Actually, Jayne provides his own explanation: Mal changed the plans. The fact that the viewers know that Mal did NOT change the plans illustrates that Jayne is following his own agenda. Now knowing that Jayne is lying, which is simpler:

1. Jayne hurries S&R out in order to more easily hand S&R over to the Feds, or
2. Jayne hurries S&R due to a last-minute, out-of-character change of heart after already making plans to betray S&R to the Feds.

In *either* case you have to make an assuption about Jayne's intentions. When you suggest A causes B, you assume that B would not have happened without A. But the show does not provide us with a causal link, you are just inferring the cause-and-effect relationship.



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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:06 PM

ESME


[
Quote:


I don't think Simon killed his guard, just rendered him unconscious. When they got to the room, Mr. Blue Hands #1 reports that one guard is dead, and Mr. Blue Hands #2 says the other one is still alive...then kills him with the sonic brain melter device.



Once again, damn my lack of tivo or vhs.
Too bad, though, cause I thought Simon showed a new hard-core (Jayn-ish?) side to his personality by killing someone who was in his way.
Funny how the human deaths on FF affect me-
Not so on BTVS or Angel (the only three shows I watch)

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:19 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Thegn:
I respect people who aren't afraid to make their argument. Perhaps I've failed to structure my arguments correctly. If so, I apologies. I think you might be misinterpreting them however. In one conclusion, only the facts of the story are needed to explain the events. In your conclusion, speculation is needed to explain them. I don't know which one is true as far as the writers are concerned, I just know which one conserves the sequence of events. And actually, in spite of all this, I think I've made up my mind about which conclusion I actually do want to go with. I think I'm going to with conclusion #2. Despite the discrepancy it seems to work.


Hey Thegn, somehow I missed this post earlier. I didn't read it until now. Welcome to our side! Enjoyed crossing swords with you my friend- you're a worthy opponent.

We need a smiley face thing where they're shaking hands.

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:25 PM

HOTFORKAYLEE


Quote:

Originally posted by Shiny:
Quote:

Originally posted by Thegn:

The sequence of events is

A. Simon reports the extent of River's injuries.

Then

B. Jayne insists on leaving.

Now the possible conclusions:

1. Jayne changed his mind about turning Simon and River in. A following B makes sense, if it suggests Jayne is acting on pitty for River or disdain for the Alliance.

2. Jayne didn't change his mind. A has no connection to B. In other words you dismiss the sequence of those events, and thereby leaving 20 minutes early is just an unexplained event. Because no where in the story does it explain why Jayne felt he needed to leave 20 minutes early. So if you accept this conclusion you must speculate to explain this, because it's not in the story.




Actually, Jayne provides his own explanation: Mal changed the plans. The fact that the viewers know that Mal did NOT change the plans illustrates that Jayne is following his own agenda. Now knowing that Jayne is lying, which is simpler:

1. Jayne hurries S&R out in order to more easily hand S&R over to the Feds, or
2. Jayne hurries S&R due to a last-minute, out-of-character change of heart after already making plans to betray S&R to the Feds.

In *either* case you have to make an assuption about Jayne's intentions. When you suggest A causes B, you assume that B would not have happened without A. But the show does not provide us with a causal link, you are just inferring the cause-and-effect relationship.





After all this discussion we can't know for sure when Jayne changed his mind, but, this is my humble opinion.

He does seem to be in wonder of Simon saving the dying man and uncomfortable with seeing River's brain scans. He still seems to act out his own agenda up untill he is detained and realizes he has been set up by his setup.

As for the reason they left when they did maybe was the writers wanted enough time to explain some of River's past experiments to set up her story, not Jayne's redemption or anything else.

Although, at the end he does seem to understand a little more when faced with his own death after having just escaped death for his scheme with the feds.

Interested to see how his character plays out over the next episodes. (Whenevr that is)


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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:33 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by esme:
Once again, damn my lack of tivo or vhs.
Too bad, though, cause I thought Simon showed a new hard-core (Jayn-ish?) side to his personality by killing someone who was in his way.
Funny how the human deaths on FF affect me-
Not so on BTVS or Angel (the only three shows I watch)


Yeah I kinda liked that idea too.

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:04 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Thegn:
Quote:

Originally posted by kef:
And what's wrong with that? That's how good writers write. They don't clutter up the story by purposely explaining every single thing. They figure that we're intellegent enough to make obvious assumptions.

If it's so obvious then I guess I must be the only person in this threat to miss this ambiguity. And I do dreadfully apologies for my complete stupidity.

Plenty of people missed it (that's assuming I'm right.) That's why I started this thread. But maybe Jose Molina messed up and didn't make it obvious enough.
Quote:

Quote:

Originally posted by kef:
The only thing I definitely CAN'T explain is why he wanted to get them out earlier than planned, You have me on that one!






Hey! No fair! I was young when I wrote that.

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