CINEMA

Edge of Tomorrow

POSTED BY: JEWELSTAITEFAN
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 11, 2023 20:25
SHORT URL: http://bit.ly/1sodTUd
VIEWED: 33831
PAGE 4 of 5

Monday, November 3, 2014 5:09 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


I've come to another conclusion regarding Sgt. Farrell:

He is the narrator of the film, but brilliantly so. The script gives us his take on what is about to happen, and guides both Cage and J-Squad. He makes J-Squad responsible for Cage (a tactic used in the military to forge a union among the soldiers and create a fighting team). It is also a way to forge unselfishness, contrary to what both Cage and the general had in mind. There is no I in team, etc.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
I gotta comment:

First, Cage was not sent to lead anyone, he was sent by the general to "sell" the attack scheduled for the next day.

As far as Sgt. Farrell was concerned, Cage was just another grunt. Yes, he was lied to by the general, who had his own motives, but Farrell was regular army, a stickler for rigid conformity to rules and regs. (As both his speech and subsequent behavior shows). Farrell assumed, from the lie, that Cage went through basic training and was commenting on his character based on that lie.

Truth be told, Farrell's instincts were right on the money, the lie notwithstanding, Cage was a coward, afraid to see his own blood. He was, as he put it, "parasitic scum" and was about to be "baptized." Farrell couldn't care less who Cage was. To him, he was just another grunt, a deserter. Rita, as she discovered who he was, seized the opportunity to use Cage as a weapon to "Win the War." It was Rita who helped to "baptize" Cage and forged his destiny as a warrior, a death machine. It was Rita who inspired Cage. Each time he was reset, he learned more about himself, about J Squad, but ultimately about Rita which gave him purpose.

Farrell's statement was point blank on the money, regardless of what lies he was told about Cage. That's what he believed in, that was a part of him, as much as his mustache and sergeant stripes.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Tell you what else JSF: instead of getting into some silly "I'm right, no I'm right" here, let's wait until the DVD with all the extras comes out. Let's watch the commentary and such, and then let's see what the writers, directors, and actors have to say about the arc of TC's character.

What do you say?


In case you are interested, I'll try to explain some things.

Also, if using films and screenwriters as accurate comprehenders of military such as the ludicrous Few Good Men as our standard, then don't read further and stay in the fantasy world.

Do you think that a doctor, an MD, should be placed in command of a combat battalion? Even if he is a Colonel? Even if he has never attended War College or Potential Command Course? If he were, his battalion would be massacred at the first exchange of fire. He is not trained for the combat, he has been trained for the medical application of his talents and knowledge. Do you think military personnel respect him less because he is not "earned" rank, as you imply? The combat injured would much rather have a War College graduate without a smidgen of medical training cut him open and repair his insides? A person would have to be insane to suggest either.

MDs are not placed in command of combat units, infantry units, tanks, air or sea squadrons unless they are separately trained for those tasks and commands. That would be disasterous for all concerned, and the military would fail along with the government behind it.

JDs are not placed in command of combat units for the same reason, yet doctors and JAG officers raise in rank. Those are earned rank, regardless of what you wish to claim.

Magor Cage was not trained in combat tactics, techniques, strategy, just like JAGs and Medical Officers are not, unless they specifically pursue those courses. He has no business being in command of any size or level of combat unit, as the criminally despicable General assigned him to be, at least until he has had some training and experience at command, yet he has earned his rank.

The reason the Sgt said all that was because he had been given a stack of lies, a frame-up of a deserter profile, which had no basis in fact. He was lied to about the training and capabilities Cage had, although he had not had any.

Any reasonable person should be able to understand this.
If I was not clear, please point out what I didn't explain.



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Monday, November 3, 2014 7:10 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Exactly the point I'm making, so you do get it. He cannot save her, so he goes it alone to complete his mission, precisely because his love for her keeps him from completing the mission and defeating the Omega.

Cage doesn't want to see her die, as has happened hundreds of times, he knows she would want to go for broke if she comes along, but she dies anyway.

Geez, do I have to spell everything out. It is obvious what I meant because you asked the very questions, and made the statements that proves my take within the film's context.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Okay:

1:11:11 - Cage decides to go after the Omega alone when he goes to see Rita. He knows that if she goes along w=she will not stop.


SGG


I don't get this. Did you complete your thought? What do you mean? She will stop when she gets killed. She will get killed in every scenario. When he goes alone, this means she will die on the beach, long before he gets to the helicopter.
What are you talking about here?



OK, looks like I understood what you said, but found it illogical. He knows she will die either way, but finds it better to risk failing to save the world (without her help, teamwork) than having to see her die. I don't see this in the scriptwork, but it sounds like you think so.

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Monday, November 3, 2014 7:17 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:


If you feel different, please provide cinematic proof (within the context of the film, please) as to why you feel this is not so. What part of what he tells the general strikes you as heroic? How exactly did he earn his rank as Major?


SGG


Did you read my post on rank of non-combat personnel?

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Monday, November 3, 2014 7:29 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
I've come to another conclusion regarding Sgt. Farrell:

He is the narrator of the film, but brilliantly so. The script gives us his take on what is about to happen, and guides both Cage and J-Squad. He makes J-Squad responsible for Cage (a tactic used in the military to forge a union among the soldiers


Incorrect. Lying to J-squad and falsely accusing Cage of fictional crimes does not endear soldiers to forge a union. His abdication of his own responsibility was the reason for deflecting his responsibility to J-squad,
Quote:


and create a fighting team).


Incorrect. Providing a few training tasks such as how to use an exoskeleton or unsafe the weapon could have gone much farther towards a fighting team - and this lack of any concern towards unit cohesion shows just how lazy, moronic, stupid, retarded Farrell was and how little he cared about whether the men under him in J-squad could be combat effective.
Quote:


It is also a way to forge unselfishness, contrary to what both Cage and the general had in mind. There is no I in team, etc.


SGG


The results showed on the beach the next day, when J-squad was wiped out just as they deserved - or, more accurately, Farrell deserved.

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Monday, November 3, 2014 11:06 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:


It is also a way to forge unselfishness, contrary to what both Cage and the general had in mind. There is no I in team, etc.


SGG


The results showed on the beach the next day, when J-squad was wiped out just as they deserved - or, more accurately, Farrell deserved.

Master Sergeant Farell didn't last a minute in combat. The Mimics weren't impressed by his swagger. Apparently he wasn't as important as he thought he was in the bigger scheme of things.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, November 4, 2014 1:48 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Well, that is so until the end of the movie when Cage loses his ability to reset the day and he goes to J-Squad to recruit them for the mission. They must act as a unit, along with Rita because now it's for keeps.

I took a calculated guess that Cage didn't want Rita along because each time she dies at the helicopter, but he doesn't, it is only when he goes that he figures out that it's another trap by the Omega. The new battle plan is to go before the invasion in the morning, of course, after he sees the real hideout of the Omega.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Exactly the point I'm making, so you do get it. He cannot save her, so he goes it alone to complete his mission, precisely because his love for her keeps him from completing the mission and defeating the Omega.

Cage doesn't want to see her die, as has happened hundreds of times, he knows she would want to go for broke if she comes along, but she dies anyway.

Geez, do I have to spell everything out. It is obvious what I meant because you asked the very questions, and made the statements that proves my take within the film's context.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Okay:

1:11:11 - Cage decides to go after the Omega alone when he goes to see Rita. He knows that if she goes along w=she will not stop.


SGG


I don't get this. Did you complete your thought? What do you mean? She will stop when she gets killed. She will get killed in every scenario. When he goes alone, this means she will die on the beach, long before he gets to the helicopter.
What are you talking about here?



OK, looks like I understood what you said, but found it illogical. He knows she will die either way, but finds it better to risk failing to save the world (without her help, teamwork) than having to see her die. I don't see this in the scriptwork, but it sounds like you think so.


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Tuesday, November 4, 2014 2:32 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Sgt. Farrell is not a narrator in the normal sense where there is a voice-over, he foretells the story of Cage, from "parasitic scum" to soldier forged in glorious combat.

This technique is subtle but useful, especially within sci-fi movies. The Matrix - when the young underground kids come to his door to pay for some files he hacked for them, they say "You're my personal savior" and he sees the White Rabbit on the girl's shoulder. Neo also says that he doesn't exist, a play on words when he warns them if they're caught with the info. In Terminator 2, the T1000 says "come with me, if you want to live."

At first, I thought Farrell was just spewing old school gung-ho army bullshit, but as I watched a 2nd and 3rd time, I began to understand that he was foretelling Cage's destiny - in other words the main theme of the story. A romanticized vision of the soldier/hero who sacrifices all to win the battle and the war. The fiery crucible is combat where Cage learns to become a soldier all to save Rita, but also to save J-Squad along the way.

At the film's beginning he is parasitic scum trying to blackmail the general, but he is baptized in battle and by the Alpha and therein begins his journey. Even on D-Day when he tries to run away, Farrell tells him "you're gonna miss your moment" and soon after he kills the Alpha. It is a battle for survival for Cage, but when he meets Rita, everything changes. From there on, he is being remade into the soldier he was destined to be. After killing the Alpha, he changes the dynamic of the Mimicks slaughter, and so begins his journey to ultimate victory. It is Rita, Cage and J-Squad who affect the landscape. But only after Cage experiences and cares for someone other than himself.

By the way, Farrell couldn't give less of a shit about Cage, who, as far as he's concerned, is a deserter and a coward. Not so much because he's ignorant, but because he's regular Army and set in his ways. Old school Army follows orders, he believes in discipline, and, although he knows Cage is an officer (after the way he sizes up his uniform). He even calls him "sir." Farrell is going to put him through his paces regardless if he's a soldier or an officer.


SGG

Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
I've come to another conclusion regarding Sgt. Farrell:

He is the narrator of the film, but brilliantly so. The script gives us his take on what is about to happen, and guides both Cage and J-Squad. He makes J-Squad responsible for Cage (a tactic used in the military to forge a union among the soldiers


Incorrect. Lying to J-squad and falsely accusing Cage of fictional crimes does not endear soldiers to forge a union. His abdication of his own responsibility was the reason for deflecting his responsibility to J-squad,
Quote:


and create a fighting team).


Incorrect. Providing a few training take such as how to use an exoskeleton or unsafe the weapon could have gone much farther towards a fighting team - and this lack of any concern towards unit cohesion shows just how lazy, moronic, stupid, retarded Farrell was and how little he cared about whether the men under him in J-squad could be combat effective.
Quote:


It is also a way to forge unselfishness, contrary to what both Cage and the general had in mind. There is no I in team, etc.


SGG


The results showed on the beach the next day, when J-squad was wiped out just as they deserved - or, more accurately, Farrell deserved.


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Tuesday, November 4, 2014 2:46 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


What I'm talking about is within the film. What in the film proves your theory that Cage wasn't a coward, at the very beginning of the film, when he first enters the general's office.

I quoted the script and his initial reaction to the general's request. I'm not talking about outside of the film.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:


If you feel different, please provide cinematic proof (within the context of the film, please) as to why you feel this is not so. What part of what he tells the general strikes you as heroic? How exactly did he earn his rank as Major?


SGG


Did you read my post on rank of non-combat personnel?


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Tuesday, November 4, 2014 5:17 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Well, that is so until the end of the movie when Cage loses his ability to reset the day and he goes to J-Squad to recruit them for the mission. They must act as a unit, along with Rita because now it's for keeps.


They could be a unit because they cut the retard Farrell out of the loop. If Farrell was allowed to be informed, he would have lost the human race for us. Cage cemented the unit, not Farrell.
Quote:


I took a calculated guess that Cage didn't want Rita along because each time she dies at the helicopter, but he doesn't, it is only when he goes that he figures out that it's another trap by the Omega. The new battle plan is to go before the invasion in the morning, of course, after he sees the real hideout of the Omega.


SGG


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Tuesday, November 4, 2014 6:08 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:


It is also a way to forge unselfishness, contrary to what both Cage and the general had in mind. There is no I in team, etc.


SGG


The results showed on the beach the next day, when J-squad was wiped out just as they deserved - or, more accurately, Farrell deserved.

Master Sergeant Farell didn't last a minute in combat. The Mimics weren't impressed by his swagger. Apparently he wasn't as important as he thought he was in the bigger scheme of things.


Your recent posts in this thread I find refreshingly on target. I must review the thread to see if I agree with everything you said. Have you found any of my points objectionable?

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Tuesday, November 4, 2014 6:10 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN



Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
OK, looks like I understood what you said, but found it illogical. He knows she will die either way, but finds it better to risk failing to save the world (without her help, teamwork) than having to see her die. I don't see this in the scriptwork, but it sounds like you think so.


I took a calculated guess that Cage didn't want Rita along because each time she dies at the helicopter, but he doesn't, it is only when he goes that he figures out that it's another trap by the Omega.

SGG


The trap is why Omega needs Rita to not accompany Cage.

I keep rereading your sentence, and still cannot make sense of it.

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Tuesday, November 4, 2014 6:21 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Sgt. Farrell is not a narrator in the normal sense where there is a voice-over, he foretells the story of Cage, from "parasitic scum" to soldier forged in glorious combat.



At first, I thought Farrell was just spewing old school gung-ho army bullshit, but as I watched a 2nd and 3rd time, I began to understand that he was foretelling Cage's destiny - in other words the main theme of the story. A romanticized vision of the soldier/hero who sacrifices all to win the battle and the war. The fiery crucible is combat where Cage learns to become a soldier all to save Rita, but also to save J-Squad along the way.

At the film's beginning he is parasitic scum trying to blackmail the general, but he is baptized in battle and by the Alpha and therein begins his journey. Even on D-Day when he tries to run away, Farrell tells him "you're gonna miss your moment" and soon after he kills the Alpha. It is a battle for survival for Cage, but when he meets Rita, everything changes. From there on, he is being remade into the soldier he was destined to be. After killing the Alpha, he changes the dynamic of the Mimicks slaughter, and so begins his journey to ultimate victory. It is Rita, Cage and J-Squad who affect the landscape. But only after Cage experiences and cares for someone other than himself.


Wrong. Only after getting the reset ability. That is the sole determining factor.
Quote:


By the way, Farrell couldn't give less of a shit about Cage, who, as far as he's concerned, is a deserter and a coward. Not so much because he's ignorant, but because he's regular Army and set in his ways. Old school Army follows orders, he believes in discipline, and, although he knows Cage is an officer (after the way he sizes up his uniform). He even calls him "sir." Farrell is going to put him through his paces regardless if he's a soldier or an officer.


That is such a stinking pile of manure that I cannot fathom how to introduce reality to the unwashed.

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Tuesday, November 4, 2014 6:26 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
If you feel different, please provide cinematic proof (within the context of the film, please) as to why you feel this is not so. What part of what he tells the general strikes you as heroic? How exactly did he earn his rank as Major?

SGG


Did you read my post on rank of non-combat personnel?


What I'm talking about is within the film.


He held the rank of Major. Get over it.
He held the rank, he earned the rank of Major. Deal with it.
I can agree Brigham was a cardboard cutout and did not earn the rank of General, which is in fact why most U.S. forces did not operate under foreign commanders.
If Cage had not earned the rank of Major, he would not have been displayed on worldwide television as a spokesperson wearing a Major costume.

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Tuesday, November 4, 2014 10:14 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Your recent posts in this thread I find refreshingly on target. I must review the thread to see if I agree with everything you said. Have you found any of my points objectionable?

I have no problem with what you wrote.

I admire the movie. The screenplay used a small portion of the novel, throwing away what appeals only to the Japanese: pseudo-scientific explanations, far too much detail about mechanized armor Jackets (what in Japanese imagination makes it desirable to merge with mighty machines? ), intra-group dynamics that only the Japanese would care about.

From the novel All You Need Is Kill © 2004 by Hiroshi Sakurazaka :
Quote:

Sergeant Ferrell Bartolome had been around longer than anyone else in our platoon. He’d lived through so many battles, he was more than soldier, he was the glue that kept our company together. They said if you stuck him in a centrifuge, he’d come out 70 percent big brother, 20 percent ball-busting drill sergeant, and 10 percent steel-reinforced carbon.
Holy crap! I understand why there is still an Emperor. Only in Japan would someone low in the hierarchy write that BS paragraph about their superior's superior qualities. They really want to believe and put faith in those higher up.

The only idea better in the novel than the movie is the name All You Need Is Kill. Banzai!

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, November 5, 2014 3:33 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


You're right, after re-reading my response, it doesn't make sense.

Cage knows that Rita dies when they reach the helicopter, he even mentions to her that they try a different scenario where she stays behind in the farm house, and he goes ahead. But, after he goes to visit her at the training facility, he decides it best for him to go alone - in an attempt to save her. He is no longer thinking of himself and is willing to sacrifice himself to save her and humanity. He now has the hero's mentality.

He goes to the German post where he visualized the Omega, and discovers it's a trap. He returns to talk with Carter and Rita to tell them the bad news, Carter tells Cage that the device is in Whitehall.............they go, Cage loses his ability, etc. That's probably how she lost Henderson, no matter what she did, he died. It's like when Superman loses his Earth-father, Jonathan Kent, all those powers and he can't save him.

You're probably right about the Omega calculating into the equation and keeping Rita from going with him to the German mountain. One of the things I enjoy about this film is that they don't spoon feed the audience every single plot twist and storyline. It makes you think.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
OK, looks like I understood what you said, but found it illogical. He knows she will die either way, but finds it better to risk failing to save the world (without her help, teamwork) than having to see her die. I don't see this in the scriptwork, but it sounds like you think so.


I took a calculated guess that Cage didn't want Rita along because each time she dies at the helicopter, but he doesn't, it is only when he goes that he figures out that it's another trap by the Omega.

SGG


The trap is why Omega needs Rita to not accompany Cage.

I keep rereading your sentence, and still cannot make sense of it.


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Wednesday, November 5, 2014 3:55 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


I know that he was a major, and how he got to be one. ROTC training, owned an advertising agency, etc. He did not earn his position on the battlefield, hence Farrell's speech and it's true meaning.

I did not say he was stupid, Cage was plenty smart, so much so, he thought blackmailing a general would (like in the civilian world) get him the results he would ordinarily get. He even tried to run. He had no clue about the inner workings of the military world.

In the beginning of the film, Cage talks about how with limited training a soldier could literally defeat an army with the suit on. He certainly finds out differently. Just before he tries blackmailing the general, he tells him how he can't stand the sight of blood, not even so much as a paper cut. He is a complete wuss. Cage might have been a major, but it was not due to his combat skills or his military prowess. The US Army must have been desperate to give him the rank of major, or he probably got it through conniving and his underhanded abilities.

It makes his journey to becoming a hero all the more interesting. By film's end, he's a heroic hunk. The first time he comes to Rita in the training facility in the barracks; he's a private. When he resets the first encounter at the end, he's a major and the men in the facility snap to attention...........honoring his transformation and rank....(damn, I'm good. Actually, the script is damn-near perfect).


SGG

P.S. That whole thing with the general was, to me, a commentary on the difference between the soldier doing battle in the field and the "High" command. Often they are at odds. Brigham was so caught up in being General that he didn't heed the warnings of Carter, Rita or Cage regarding the alien horde. Still though, it's curious how he kept the thingy Carter fashioned to get info from the Alpha.


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
If you feel different, please provide cinematic proof (within the context of the film, please) as to why you feel this is not so. What part of what he tells the general strikes you as heroic? How exactly did he earn his rank as Major?

SGG


Did you read my post on rank of non-combat personnel?


What I'm talking about is within the film.


He held the rank of Major. Get over it.
He held the rank, he earned the rank of Major. Deal with it.
I can agree Brigham was a cardboard cutout and did not earn the rank of General, which is in fact why most U.S. forces did not operate under foreign commanders.
If Cage had not earned the rank of Major, he would not have been displayed on worldwide television as a spokesperson wearing a Major costume.


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Wednesday, November 5, 2014 4:29 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


I agree with you about the novel, it does get into the minutiae of the armor, which makes it quite boring to read. I found myself skipping ahead a lot. It is a romanticized version of Army life, but also a continuation of the fascination with robotics and man-machines or exoskeletons within Japanese sci-fi.

In the novel, Cage was a young lowly private barely out of high school. Of course Tom is a long way from high school. So obviously they changed that and made it more dynamic and clever by making him a glorified civilian with limited training in college (still a stretch). Clever in the sense that they made him out to be a slickster, a conniver, a type of Ferris Bueller of the Army set. Imagine trying to blackmail a general. That's chutzpah!

The further away he was from "hero" the better the transformation at the end in the third act. Much better than all that techno mumble jumble about exoskeletal body armor.

Agreed: Great title "All You Need Is Kill"


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Your recent posts in this thread I find refreshingly on target. I must review the thread to see if I agree with everything you said. Have you found any of my points objectionable?

I have no problem with what you wrote.

I admire the movie. The screenplay used a small portion of the novel, throwing away what appeals only to the Japanese: pseudo-scientific explanations, far too much detail about mechanized armor Jackets (what in Japanese imagination makes it desirable to merge with mighty machines? ), intra-group dynamics that only the Japanese would care about.

From the novel All You Need Is Kill © 2004 by Hiroshi Sakurazaka :
Quote:

Sergeant Ferrell Bartolome had been around longer than anyone else in our platoon. He’d lived through so many battles, he was more than soldier, he was the glue that kept our company together. They said if you stuck him in a centrifuge, he’d come out 70 percent big brother, 20 percent ball-busting drill sergeant, and 10 percent steel-reinforced carbon.
Holy crap! I understand why there is still an Emperor. Only in Japan would someone low in the hierarchy write that BS paragraph about their superior's superior qualities. They really want to believe and put faith in those higher up.

The only idea better in the novel than the movie is the name All You Need Is Kill. Banzai!

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


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Wednesday, November 5, 2014 8:58 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
OK, looks like I understood what you said, but found it illogical. He knows she will die either way, but finds it better to risk failing to save the world (without her help, teamwork) than having to see her die. I don't see this in the scriptwork, but it sounds like you think so.


I took a calculated guess that Cage didn't want Rita along because each time she dies at the helicopter, but he doesn't, it is only when he goes that he figures out that it's another trap by the Omega.

SGG


The trap is why Omega needs Rita to not accompany Cage.

I keep rereading your sentence, and still cannot make sense of it.


You're right, after re-reading my response, it doesn't make sense.

Cage knows that Rita dies when they reach the helicopter, he even mentions to her that they try a different scenario where she stays behind in the farm house, and he goes ahead. But, after he goes to visit her at the training facility, he decides it best for him to go alone - in an attempt to save her.


Wrong. He cannot save her. She will die on the beach long before he gets to the helicopter. She only survives longer than a few minutes on the beach when he brings her along.
Quote:


He is no longer thinking of himself and is willing to sacrifice himself to save her and humanity.


ditto.
Quote:


He now has the hero's mentality.

He goes to the German post where he visualized the Omega, and discovers it's a trap. He returns to talk with Carter and Rita to tell them the bad news, Carter tells Cage that the device is in Whitehall.............they go,


Brigham causes Cage to bleed out, instead of allowing the extermination of human race to be stopped.
Quote:


Cage loses his ability, etc. That's probably how she lost Henderson, no matter what she did, he died. It's like when Superman loses his Earth-father, Jonathan Kent, all those powers and he can't save him.

You're probably right about the Omega calculating into the equation and keeping Rita from going with him to the German mountain.


Turner Dam, I think you mean.
Dozens of mimics hiding away, waiting for Rita & Cage to show up and stop her from accompanying Cage to the Trap? All those for just one helicopter, isolated and vacant, hidden, and then Rita? "Probably right" my muscular buttocks.
Quote:


One of the things I enjoy about this film is that they don't spoon feed the audience every single plot twist and storyline. It makes you think.


SGG



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Thursday, November 6, 2014 8:06 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
If you feel different, please provide cinematic proof (within the context of the film, please) as to why you feel this is not so. What part of what he tells the general strikes you as heroic? How exactly did he earn his rank as Major?

SGG


Did you read my post on rank of non-combat personnel?


What I'm talking about is within the film.


He held the rank of Major. Get over it.
He held the rank, he earned the rank of Major. Deal with it.
I can agree Brigham was a cardboard cutout and did not earn the rank of General, which is in fact why most U.S. forces did not operate under foreign commanders.
If Cage had not earned the rank of Major, he would not have been displayed on worldwide television as a spokesperson wearing a Major costume.




I know that he was a major, and how he got to be one. ROTC training, owned an advertising agency, etc. He did not earn his position on the battlefield,


Cage did not HAVE a position on the battlefield, other to be executed thru Brigham's and Farrell's lies and deceptions.
Quote:


He had no clue about the inner workings of the military world.

In the beginning of the film, Cage talks about how with limited training a soldier could literally defeat an army with the suit on.


As was proven at Verdun, by Rita. Brigham knew the truth, but being a despicable a-hole, hid the facts from the rest of the military.
Quote:


Cage might have been a major,


Not might have. Cage was a Major. Get over it. Deal with it. Get a clue.
Quote:


but it was not due to his combat skills or his military prowess.


Now you are repeating me. Do Generals of the JAG prove themselves via combat skills or military prowess? Do Generals of the Medical Corps prove themselves via combat skills or military prowess?
Get a clue.
Quote:


The US Army must have been desperate to give him the rank of major,


incorrect. Get a clue.
I will agree that the UDF was most certainly desperate to allow Brigham to claim the rank of General. But then, he didn't come from the U.S.
Quote:


The first time he comes to Rita in the training facility in the barracks; he's a


Major wearing incorrect gear, out of uniform, and railroaded. But following her orders.
Quote:


When he resets the first encounter at the end, he's a major


As he has always been.
Quote:


and the men in the facility snap to attention...........honoring his


correct rank
Quote:


rank....


SGG


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Thursday, November 6, 2014 8:12 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN



Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
If you feel different, please provide cinematic proof (within the context of the film, please) as to why you feel this is not so. What part of what he tells the general strikes you as heroic? How exactly did he earn his rank as Major?

SGG


Did you read my post on rank of non-combat personnel?


What I'm talking about is within the film.




He did not earn his position on the battlefield,


that is not in the film.
Quote:


He had no clue about the inner workings of the military world.


that is not in the film.
Quote:


Cage might have been a major, but it was not due to his combat skills or his military prowess.


that is not in the film.
Quote:


The US Army must have been desperate to give him the rank of major,


that is not in the film.
Quote:


or he probably got it through conniving and his underhanded abilities.


that is not in the film.
Quote:




SGG



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Friday, November 7, 2014 1:22 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


I'm using my imagination and filling in the blanks. Kind of developing a back story
to complete a picture of just who is Cage.

We know that Batman is Bruce Wayne, but we assume that he loved his parents (who did not actually raise him). We know that Alfred stays with him throughout his childhood. What does he think of Alfred? What about Rachel Dawes?

Why do I assume that Bruce loves his parents? You tell me, Joker.

Anyway, we don't have to be told things verbatim, that can be expressed through inference.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
If you feel different, please provide cinematic proof (within the context of the film, please) as to why you feel this is not so. What part of what he tells the general strikes you as heroic? How exactly did he earn his rank as Major?

SGG


Did you read my post on rank of non-combat personnel?


What I'm talking about is within the film.




I know that he was a major, and how he got to be one. ROTC training, owned an advertising agency, etc. He did not earn his position on the battlefield,


that is not in the film.
Quote:


hence Farrell's speech and it's true meaning.

I did not say he was stupid, Cage was plenty smart, so much so, he thought blackmailing a general would (like in the civilian world) get him the results he would ordinarily get. He even tried to run. He had no clue about the inner workings of the military world.


that is not in the film.
Quote:


In the beginning of the film, Cage talks about how with limited training a soldier could literally defeat an army with the suit on. He certainly finds out differently. Just before he tries blackmailing the general, he tells him how he can't stand the sight of blood, not even so much as a paper cut. He is a complete wuss. Cage might have been a major, but it was not due to his combat skills or his military prowess.


that is not in the film.
Quote:


The US Army must have been desperate to give him the rank of major,


that is not in the film.
Quote:


or he probably got it through conniving and his underhanded abilities.


that is not in the film.
Quote:




SGG



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Friday, November 7, 2014 4:48 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
I'm using my imagination and filling in the blanks. Kind of developing a back story
to complete a picture of just who is Cage.

Anyway, we don't have to be told things verbatim, that can be expressed through inference.


SGG
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
please provide cinematic proof (within the context of the film, please)

SGG


What I'm talking about is within the film.

SGG



really.

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Friday, November 7, 2014 6:04 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
I know that he was a major, and how he got to be one. ROTC training, owned an advertising agency, etc. He did not earn his position on the battlefield,


that is not in the film.


That is absolutely 100% in the film. Major - check. ROTC - check. PR man - check. War ended his ad company, and he got called in to do PR for the military. Check. Check.

It's 100% true that he had no combat training and "earned" his rank through other means. It's not just *in* the film; it is central to the plot and character development.

Check that fuzzy memory of yours JSF.


Quote:

Quote:

I did not say he was stupid, Cage was plenty smart, so much so, he thought blackmailing a general would (like in the civilian world) get him the results he would ordinarily get. He even tried to run. He had no clue about the inner workings of the military world.


that is not in the film.


That is most certainly in the film. It's in every action Cage takes in the first 10-20 minutes.

JSF, can you point out any action Cage takes in the first go around of the time loop that suggests that he does have military combat training? SGG and I can point out (and have pointed out) several things to show that he doesn't. So whatcha got?

In fact, in previous posts in this thread you were rather strident about how he did NOT have military training, ie the general was a very bad unfair man to send poor untrained Cage to the front with no experience.

So which is it?

Quote:

Quote:


In the beginning of the film, Cage talks about how with limited training a soldier could literally defeat an army with the suit on. He certainly finds out differently. Just before he tries blackmailing the general, he tells him how he can't stand the sight of blood, not even so much as a paper cut. He is a complete wuss. Cage might have been a major, but it was not due to his combat skills or his military prowess.


that is not in the film.


That is in the film. Cage has no idea about combat. He can't even turn off the safety on the suit. He's completely green.

Again, JSF, can you point out the scenes in the movie that make you believe he earned his rank through military prowess? They must have been convincing, to make you change your mind since those posts of yours I referred to already. The ones where you said Cage had no training.

So what lines/scenes convinced you? Now, I'm talking about actual things that happen in the movie, not ones you make up in your fuzzy memory.

Quote:

Quote:


The US Army must have been desperate to give him the rank of major,
....
or he probably got it through conniving and his underhanded abilities.


that is not in the film.


These are indeed not in the film, and not necessary for the plot. Cage started out a wuss and a coward, but he was a good PR man. He did that well, and it was useful to the military. In that sense I think he earned his position.

His failure was in being willing to recruit 1000s of human beings to give away their lives when he wasn't willing to take any sort of risk himself, even one that was far short of what they risked. IN that he was pure hypocrite and coward.



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Sunday, November 9, 2014 3:41 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


This is solely for SGG. I will try to clarify.
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
If you feel different, please provide cinematic proof (within the context of the film, please) as to why you feel this is not so. What part of what he tells the general strikes you as heroic? How exactly did he earn his rank as Major?

SGG


Did you read my post on rank of non-combat personnel?


What I'm talking about is within the film.




He did not earn his position on the battlefield,


that is not in the film.
Quote:


He had no clue about the inner workings of the military world.


that is not in the film.
Quote:


Cage might have been a major, but it was not due to his combat skills or his military prowess.


that is not in the film.
Quote:


The US Army must have been desperate to give him the rank of major,


that is not in the film.
Quote:


or he probably got it through conniving and his underhanded abilities.


that is not in the film.
Quote:




SGG


I hope that reduces your confusion.

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Sunday, November 9, 2014 4:19 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


JSF, you continually dig a deeper hole for yourself. Just because something is not specifically stated or shown in the film, it doesn't mean you can't infer certain things based on a character's actions. There is no reason to assume Cage reached his position due to military action or training, but there is ample reason to assume he got it by political means.

There is no argument that Cage is a hero by the end of the film, but he is the exact opposite at the beginning. SGG has asked you multiple times to show where in the movie it is shown or stated otherwise, but you have failed to do so.



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Sunday, November 9, 2014 5:46 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quoted from previous posts. Questions for JSF.

1. Can you point out any action Cage takes in the first go around of the time loop that suggests that he does have military combat training?

2. In fact, in previous posts in this thread you were rather strident about how he did NOT have military training, ie the general was a very bad unfair man to send poor untrained Cage to the front with no experience. So which is it?

3. What lines/scenes convinced you? Now, I'm talking about actual things that happen in the movie, not ones you make up in your fuzzy memory.




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Sunday, November 9, 2014 5:54 PM

MAL4PREZ


And here is what JSF said in the first page of this thread:

Quote:

No. The General was being an ass. You might think of it as "first wave" and write them off. But those were supposed to be trained guys. He ["He" here being Cage] was not, absolutely not. He was wasting a suit/armor thing. He absolutely should not have been there.


JSF said, straight up, that Cage was "not, absolutely not" a "trained guy."

My lord, JSF, you really are a troll. You make it so easy to prove what a doorknob you are. What is so wrong with you that you feed off being such an obvious moron? Have you no pride?





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Monday, November 10, 2014 2:35 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


JSF, I really enjoy talking about a good movie and figuring out the different meanings and plot twists, but you make it hard to want to continue the discussion.

I am more than willing to discuss anyone's take on a film's theme or a character's motivation. All, like any work of art, stimulates the imagination and stirs the soul. But you frustratingly refuse to logically discuss these matters with an open mind. If you don't want to discuss a film's merit with even a hint of civil intelligence, I will not continue to beat a dead horse thinking I will get a different result.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
This is solely for SGG. I will try to clarify.
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
If you feel different, please provide cinematic proof (within the context of the film, please) as to why you feel this is not so. What part of what he tells the general strikes you as heroic? How exactly did he earn his rank as Major?

SGG


Did you read my post on rank of non-combat personnel?


What I'm talking about is within the film.




He did not earn his position on the battlefield,


that is not in the film.
Quote:


He had no clue about the inner workings of the military world.


that is not in the film.
Quote:


Cage might have been a major, but it was not due to his combat skills or his military prowess.


that is not in the film.
Quote:


The US Army must have been desperate to give him the rank of major,


that is not in the film.
Quote:


or he probably got it through conniving and his underhanded abilities.


that is not in the film.
Quote:




SGG


I hope that reduces your confusion.


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Monday, November 10, 2014 3:32 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Thanks M4P, I knew that I was spinning my wheels im my attempt to intelligently discuss this film with JSF, for reasons even beyond my own understanding, I felt that maybe there would be an exchange of ideas (such as our discussions) whereby we could both benefit.

Sadly, I was wrong.

I say sadly because I truly love film, and discussing it gives me great satisfaction. As an aside, every time I see this film I discover something new. By the way, the "Cage" in the book describes himself as green, a raw recruit. Cruise is a bit old to play the role of a green recruit (with little in the way of combat skills), so the script called for an older guy with a "yellow" streak and dubious credentials. Having that meeting at the start of the film was indeed crucial to the set in Act One. But, please forgive me for explaining to you, of all people, the intricacies of Film 101.

Part of the reason I'm so impressed with the script is that it sets up, with great success and in a short period of time, just who our guy is. A fast-talking, double-dealing manipulator who has no compunction to blackmail a superior officer. A truly sound professional piece of work by Christopher McQuarrie (I'm attaching a review from Screen Rant that has some interesting observations).

http://screenrant.com/edge-tomorrow-alternate-ending/

Thanks again, don't be such a stranger


SGG



Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
And here is what JSF said in the first page of this thread:

Quote:

No. The General was being an ass. You might think of it as "first wave" and write them off. But those were supposed to be trained guys. He ["He" here being Cage] was not, absolutely not. He was wasting a suit/armor thing. He absolutely should not have been there.


JSF said, straight up, that Cage was "not, absolutely not" a "trained guy."

My lord, JSF, you really are a troll. You make it so easy to prove what a doorknob you are. What is so wrong with you that you feed off being such an obvious moron? Have you no pride?





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Monday, November 10, 2014 3:48 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Thanks EC, for your support. I tried to be clear and concise about my position on the film, but to no avail. I do enjoy when a film guides you, rather than spoon-feed you through the story.

Well, you know more than most.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
JSF, you continually dig a deeper hole for yourself. Just because something is not specifically stated or shown in the film, it doesn't mean you can't infer certain things based on a character's actions. There is no reason to assume Cage reached his position due to military action or training, but there is ample reason to assume he got it by political means.

There is no argument that Cage is a hero by the end of the film, but he is the exact opposite at the beginning. SGG has asked you multiple times to show where in the movie it is shown or stated otherwise, but you have failed to do so.




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Monday, November 10, 2014 6:17 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
Just because something is not specifically stated or shown in the film, it doesn't mean you can't infer certain things based on a character's actions. There is no reason to assume Cage reached his position due to military action or training,

SGG has asked you multiple times to show where in the movie it is shown or stated otherwise, but you have failed to do so.


Logic failure.

We can use things not stated or shown in the film.
I must use things only stated or shown in the film.

Make up your mind.
When I mention things not explicitly stated or shown in the film, these are not allowed.
When SGG uses things he dreamed, fantasized, or conjured, those are solid bits, even when showing his obvious lack of military knowledge.

Come on. A non-commissioned Sergeant has the authority to strip a Filed Grade Commissioned Officer of his rank? You must be joking.

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Monday, November 10, 2014 6:20 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
JSF, I really enjoy talking about a good movie and figuring out the different meanings and plot twists, but you make it hard to want to continue the discussion.

I am more than willing to discuss anyone's take on a film's theme or a character's motivation. All, like any work of art, stimulates the imagination and stirs the soul.


SGG


I requested your response for a while. You have responded lately.
Thank you for your time.

Regarding my first post/reply yesterday, I mistaken thought I was replying to SGG, but it was Mal4 who prompted my post. Sorry for any confusion there.


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Monday, November 10, 2014 7:14 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
Just because something is not specifically stated or shown in the film, it doesn't mean you can't infer certain things based on a character's actions. There is no reason to assume Cage reached his position due to military action or training,

SGG has asked you multiple times to show where in the movie it is shown or stated otherwise, but you have failed to do so.


Logic failure.

We can use things not stated or shown in the film.
I must use things only stated or shown in the film.

Make up your mind.
When I mention things not explicitly stated or shown in the film, these are not allowed.
When SGG uses things he dreamed, fantasized, or conjured, those are solid bits, even when showing his obvious lack of military knowledge.

Come on. A non-commissioned Sergeant has the authority to strip a Filed Grade Commissioned Officer of his rank? You must be joking.


SGG may have asked you to point to anything in the film to support your theories, but I didn't. But the truth is, you haven't presented anything either in the film or just implied to support your pronouncements about Cage. You accuse Farrell of stripping Cage of his rank, but that action was taken by Brigham, and it was because of Cage's arrogance that he could threaten a superior officer and walk out on his duty. You've also gone so far as to imply General Brigham was in collusion with the aliens. I have to echo the question, "Where do you come up with this crap?"



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Monday, November 10, 2014 7:19 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Regarding my first post/reply yesterday, I mistaken thought I was replying to SGG, but it was Mal4 who prompted my post. Sorry for any confusion there.


You were replying to me? Could you please then answer the questions:

1. Can you point out any action Cage takes in the first go around of the time loop that suggests that he does have military combat training?

2. In fact, in previous posts in this thread you were rather strident about how he did NOT have military training, ie the general was a very bad unfair man to send poor untrained Cage to the front with no experience. So which is it?

3. What lines/scenes convinced you? Now, I'm talking about actual things that happen in the movie, not ones you make up in your fuzzy memory.

Addendum...

4. You said, straight up, that Cage was "not, absolutely not" a "trained guy." What is so wrong with you that you feed off being such an obvious moron? Have you no pride?


Now, I don't believe that "JSF" will address any of this directly, because JSF is a cowardly troll who delights in posting wrong shit just to mess with people. ie - all the "That is not in the movie" BS is soooooo ironically funny. JSFtroll wrote a long, detailed post of his/her whacked opinions of this film that was so far off that he/she had to actually admit that none of it was actually in the movie. And yet he/she (River) still wants to be respected as any kind of reasonable voice.

Troll. So clearly troll.

It's not an accident. Just like in RWED, JSF purposely does wrong stuff because he/she knows that that will draw a reaction. He/she is usually too smart to get caught in it so obviously. Not this time!

Moron.

JSF. Please. Entertain me. Do something even more obviously wrong than you have so far. Including: try to respond to this post point by point. Please.

/so entertained!



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Tuesday, November 11, 2014 3:29 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Well put! Farrell was, as I have stated in another post, following orders - because that's the soldier he is (old school, regular Army). His reaction, to me, was one of incredulity, like he couldn't wait to get to confab with his fellow DI's and regale them with:

"Wait'll you hear about the one I got today, officer's uni and everything. And would you believe, he interrupted me in the middle of my speech."

To me, he couldn't care less what his (Cage's) story was; no one in his outfit was deserting. Paxton was all kinds of awesome in this small, but pivotal role. I was kind of bewildered that he do not appear at all in the third act, but my guess is they wanted to shift the focus and pace of the film. I reiterate, Farrell, for me, was the narrator in the film providing the logic within the first act and part of the second.

General Brigham was a different story entirely. Upper level brass has an entirely different take on the war, reviewing movements on maps and charts, and the like. I got the feeling that people within his world don't say No much to him. A bureaucrat with military authority and no regard for those in his command, other than to hear them say "Yessir." Farrell would follow orders, but not before giving the general that charming southern smile and I don't care look in his eyes.

These nuances may prove to be too much for JSF to consider.


SGG

Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
Just because something is not specifically stated or shown in the film, it doesn't mean you can't infer certain things based on a character's actions. There is no reason to assume Cage reached his position due to military action or training,

SGG has asked you multiple times to show where in the movie it is shown or stated otherwise, but you have failed to do so.


Logic failure.

We can use things not stated or shown in the film.
I must use things only stated or shown in the film.

Make up your mind.
When I mention things not explicitly stated or shown in the film, these are not allowed.
When SGG uses things he dreamed, fantasized, or conjured, those are solid bits, even when showing his obvious lack of military knowledge.

Come on. A non-commissioned Sergeant has the authority to strip a Filed Grade Commissioned Officer of his rank? You must be joking.


SGG may have asked you to point to anything in the film to support your theories, but I didn't. But the truth is, you haven't presented anything either in the film or just implied to support your pronouncements about Cage. You accuse Farrell of stripping Cage of his rank, but that action was taken by Brigham, and it was because of Cage's arrogance that he could threaten a superior officer and walk out on his duty. You've also gone so far as to imply General Brigham was in collusion with the aliens. I have to echo the question, "Where do you come up with this crap?"




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Thursday, November 13, 2014 6:36 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Tom Cruise displays something that appears to be telepathy, when it is not that at all. It is precognition or, exactly, seeing the future because he has been there. Cruise is better than River Tam at discovering people's inner secrets. For example:
"Your name is NOT really Ford. Ford was your friend who died in combat on his first day. You took his place and send your paychecks to his family."

That little revelation surprised Ford and the entire platoon. Cruise persuades them to follow him on a suicide mission to Paris. Go or not go, they know they die at dawn. So they go.


IDK.
If they KNOW they die at dawn, on the beach, that would change the story a bit. They needed to BELIEVE he was correct when he said they would die at dawn on the beach - and this mission was actually their only hope of surviving. THAT is what shows their courage and the validity of their redemption, not merely an avoidance of something causing their inevitable death.


this is a quote of a post on the second page of this thread. 10 July.

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Thursday, November 13, 2014 7:03 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
I was disappointed in the ending because it was neatly, but quite abruptly tied up into a cute bow. It was, for me anyways, anti-climatic. But not in a totally dissatisfying way. It's just that after all that brilliant set up during the first 3/4 of the movie, it felt like they rushed those final scenes to fit the movie under a certain time. . . .
In my ending both Rita and Cage get to be heroes.

I think the alternative ending in the book would make for a very unsatisfying movie. Tom Cruise promises the forever dead, with no hope of a reset, Emily Blunt:
Quote:

While I live and breathe, humanity will never fall. I promise you. It may take a dozen years, but I will win this war for you. Even if you won’t be here to see it. You were the only person I wanted to protect, and you were gone.
The book's ending was too Japanese for me.
Quote:

I sat there for some time holding the last cup of coffee she’d ever made, for someone she’d barely known. Its thin aroma stirred in me an insufferable longing and sadness. A small colony of blue-green mold bobbed on the surface of the coffee. Raising the cup to my lips, I drank.
That's not a good ending for a movie. www.amazon.com/All-Need-Kill-Hiroshi-Sakurazaka/dp/1421527618/


Do you think this is the ending originally in the film - the book's version? Or was it just Cage not surviving the death of Omega?

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Thursday, November 13, 2014 7:20 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Second, I have reviewed your posts in this thread, and, once the film was released, I have enjoyed your replies, and this one I feel is one of the most pertinent of the thread. Thanks for your input.

Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:


It is also a way to forge unselfishness, contrary to what both Cage and the general had in mind. There is no I in team, etc.

SGG


The results showed on the beach the next day, when J-squad was wiped out just as they deserved - or, more accurately, Farrell deserved.

Master Sergeant Farell didn't last a minute in combat. The Mimics weren't impressed by his swagger. Apparently he wasn't as important as he thought he was in the bigger scheme of things.


Have you seen Inception? I did not find any posts by you in the discussion thread for Inception, in the Other Science Fiction Series forum.

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Wednesday, November 19, 2014 8:29 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I finally picked up a copy. noticed a few things.

What is with the credits - they were confusing in the theater, and upon further review, they still are.

Brigham's Secretary is Iris but credits list her as Judith.

Who the heck is/was Karen Lord? Was her part cut?

Cool to see Tom Hardy's wife in J-Squad.

Emily's brother Sebastian has credit - was he the guy she squashed before he could complete "Full Metal B-" coming out of the hangar?

Corporal Montgomery is listed in credits as Julie. Was a bunch of her part cut, or did she have a greater interaction with Cage than we saw?

In the book, was their also a retarded General Brigham? Did he also keep trying to lose the war? I understand they were invading Japan, but did they also have a moronic plan to land helicopters on the beach instead of inland? Or are these moronic ideas from the screen adaptation team?


at 20:20-25 the Rules of Engagement are Observed: Kuntz, near Cage, shoots at mimic, and is immediately engaged with return fire missile, holing him. Thus the mimics target those with active munitions, of which Cage has none.

22:20 Farell turns Cage around. Some have claimed Cage is "running away" but in fact Farell and the remnants of J-Squad (Nance, Griff, Skinner, Ford) were not near where Cage was, or else they would have been wiped out under Rita's crashing drop ship (after Kimmel and Kuntz were scratched). Cage was not moving away from J-squad, and had not seen any J-Squad members besides Kimmel and Kuntz after getting feet-down on the beach.

Farell first gives cage speech inside, then on reboot around 26:00 gives speech outside, then on other reboots randomly gives it outside or inside. This is Farell's standard boilerplate speech, given thousands of times over his retarded years, even knows where to continue it after Cage reminds him where he left off. The speech has no relation to Cage. I have tried to delude myself into imagining this yakking has significance such as others here have alluded to, but sorry, it is just boilerplate gibberish.

However, there are a few pertinent points. Farell says, an ironic notion, that Fate is in Hands Other Than Our Own is not allowed. What Farell prohibits is in fact the only truth applied to Cage.

The name of the dam is not Turner, but Curnera Dam, apparently.

Cage is already on at least his 8th reboot before Rita tells him to find her when he wakes up.

At 34:52, he covers up the card game only after Rita tells him to find her - now he has a mission, a goal.

1:10:27 Cage reboots, the sargeant sees that he is despondant, in despair, with the weight of the world on his shoulders. Feisty or bewildered are what is expected.

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Thursday, November 20, 2014 7:11 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Continued from yesterday's post...

Exposed card game first time at 12:33, after first reset 26:59, second reset Cage exposes the cards, don't see again until at least 9th reset when Cage covers up the cards after Rita says to find her, at 34:52.

Pertinent lines:
You are not mentally equipped to fight this thing, and never will be. Cage to doofus Brigham.


Credits: uncredited soldier Johnson is listed at imdb as a black actor, but the MP type escorts for Cage to J-Squad are both white - the guy to the left is Johnson, to the right is Goodman. Sure, more than one Johnson is likely, but the credits shouldn't normally confuse them.


Cage has at least 8 resets before Rita tells him to find her.
At least 17 resets before he gets the Vision of Trap.
At least 29 resets before we see him at the tavern getting a brew.

The helicopter scene with Rita is around 7 in the evening, and Cage has been through this many times by the time we see it. The span of waking on the duffel bags to this is about 24-34 hours each time. He has not mentally gotten sleep because he is training Rita all the time, and she must know this, but Rita complains that SHE is tired and wants to start over.

The 3 sugars scene with Rita. I wonder - is he testing her, to see if she will go along with his idea this time?


I am assuming that the book had much plotting worked out, but had a different point to be made with it's conclusion. The happier ending/outcome came from the treatment, or screenplay, but this adaptation seems also where all the plot holes and problems come from.

I have not reconciled the reset capabilities. Rita says it "resets the day" and from Cage's first time, he would reset to waking that morning in his rack in the J-Squad barracks. But he wakes instead to his recovering from taser on the duffelbags, the afternoon before. All following resets are to the same time, even if he only lasts less than an hour. If the reference is the Omega's sense of day, why would that be to the middle of the day about 18 hours prior? The final destruction of Omega resets to Cage's nap time in the arriving chopper, arriving Whitehall, a few hours before all the other resets.
In training, he is dead after a few hours or more. The beach is the next morning at 0600. The helicopter/farmhouse is about 7pm the day after being tasered. The bar is late morning or noonish of the 2nd day. The bleed out is afternoon of the first day, and the escape after bleedout is about 3am, hours before the beach assault - so the killing of Omega is about 0530 (sunrise).

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Tuesday, November 25, 2014 6:36 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Emily Blunt on Letterman tonight.

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Friday, November 28, 2014 5:18 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I found it confusing when he said that he was in the U.S. Military when he was wearing UDF insignia. Was this ad-lid on Cruise's part? Was the script screwed up? Did the costume people screw up? Regardless, it is in the film, so it must be canon.
This means that he was Commissioned by the United States Congress, and no doofus UDF clown can strip him of his Officer Commission, and regardless of what doofus General wants, Cage remains a Commissioned Officer of the United States, and his rank is Major. He can only be Decommissioned, or stripped of his Rank or Commission by the United States Command Authority, or a panel of fellow U.S. Officers in a Court-Martial. All claims of him being a non-officer in any situation other than being a Prisoner of War held by the UDF are preposterous. Even POWs retain their Commission, and their rank, and opposing forces such as the doofus UDF have no authority to change that.

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Saturday, November 29, 2014 2:12 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Emily Blunt on Letterman tonight.


So she almost kills Cruise during EoT filming, but she saves Meryl Streep. Will this become a weave of her backstories?

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Saturday, December 13, 2014 12:53 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I have come to cringe at the thought of watching Farell's scenes again because of all the fantasies mentioned here about how great he is or how powerful his speechifying is. But I do try to produce the illusion in my mind that would match what others here have said.

This last viewing I did notice something that I hadn't before.
All of J-Squad also knows Farell is a moron. And so does General Brigham. Of all the places Brigham could have put Cage, who could possibly be stupid enough to fall for such a ridiculous story as the one Farell swallows from Brigham? Maybe Farell was a Lance Corporal in the United States Military, but in the doofus UDF he is so retarded that they promote him to Master Sergeant. Why else would Farell get Brigham's gift of Cage?

J-Squad plays cards all the time because they have no respect whatsoever for the retarded dipstick MSgt they are stuck with. J-Squad is his top squad, his "tip of the spear" and they seethe with contempt whenever his gibberish is frothing from his pie-hole. J-Squad has to train the MSgt, like in the real military the MSgt would need to train the LT.

When Farell blathers on about having control of your fate, J-Squad knows better, but you can hear the contempt for him in every word they parrot back to the retard.

When Farell comes out with his moronic "ironic" revelation, J-Squad is practically stunned to silence with his ineptitude.

When Farell offloads his responsibility of training Cage, getting him ready for combat, all of J-Squad completely ignores the idiot, and clearly they have always ignored the idiot, and make no attempt whatsoever to train Cage to even unsafe his weapon.

In the Lift, when brainless Farell spouts "there is no courage without fear" J-Squad takes this as cue for joke time - every single one of them openly ignores Farell so they can poke fun at the noob.

During PT, they all ignore his chanting and jabber about, yakking away while retard Farell calls cadence, and they are "grab-assing".

When Farell turns Cage around on the beach, he is not heading him toward J-Squad, he has no clue where J-Squad is, that Kimmel is dead, whether Kuntz or Skinner are dead, and J-Squad is not assembled.

When Farell bumbles into J-Squad, and announces his moronic presence, Griff wakes up and mentions to the retard Farell that the mimic horde was not supposed to know they were coming, Ford informs idiot Farell that they are getting slaughtered here. Farell blusters to get in line, give sitrep, flank the position.

Moron Farell tells all to wait (don't shoot) until the mimic are right on them, while the mimic is amidst the squad.


On another note, why does Cage tell Rita to take the minivan, don't wait for me - if he does not go, the rest happens. What is the point of telling her to not wait for him? Between this set of resets and the set at the farmhouse/helicopter, is when Rita talks to him, time after time. He doesn't seem to get to know her before getting off the beach, other than the "is something on my face." But this driving time of talking seems to be where he gets to know her better than ever, and he seems to become more taken with her than before.

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Friday, February 13, 2015 9:39 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Finally saw it. Emily is a real treat. I just didn't buy the whole alien invasion thing though. I mean, how did such an advanced species take YEARS to over run the planet ? How was there news coverage and any semblance of society 6 months after they attacked ? They seem damn near impossible to defeat...

Having not read the 4 pages or so of this thread, I guess most of the particulars have been hashed over by now.

I don't hate Tom Cruise as much as I thought I did. He's actually quite watchable. But I liked this movie less than Oblivion. Even with Emily in it.

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Friday, February 13, 2015 10:51 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Finally saw it. Emily is a real treat. I just didn't buy the whole alien invasion thing though. I mean, how did such an advanced species take YEARS to over run the planet ? How was there news coverage and any semblance of society 6 months after they attacked ? They seem damn near impossible to defeat...

Having not read the 4 pages or so of this thread, I guess most of the particulars have been hashed over by now.

I don't hate Tom Cruise as much as I thought I did. He's actually quite watchable. But I liked this movie less than Oblivion. Even with Emily in it.



'Edge Of Tomorrow' lacked a few key elements that a really good bug movie needs ...


.. Neil Patrick Harris in a leather Gestapo trench coat saying "We're in this for the species people!"

.. Michael Ironside getting his limbs ripped off. (that's just a given)

.. Denise Richards crawling on the ground in agony with a serious flesh wound.

.. The obligatory naked coed shower scene. (unforgivable omission)

.. Catchy slogans, like "the only good bug is a dead bug!"

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Saturday, February 14, 2015 4:19 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Finally saw it. Emily is a real treat. I just didn't buy the whole alien invasion thing though. I mean, how did such an advanced species take YEARS to over run the planet ? How was there news coverage and any semblance of society 6 months after they attacked ? They seem damn near impossible to defeat...

Having not read the 4 pages or so of this thread, I guess most of the particulars have been hashed over by now.

I don't hate Tom Cruise as much as I thought I did. He's actually quite watchable. But I liked this movie less than Oblivion. Even with Emily in it.


Yes, they were hashed out. I agree that the film didn't include enough of the backstory, but it apparently was in the books, and is reasonable.

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Sunday, February 15, 2015 10:12 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Finally saw it. Emily is a real treat. I just didn't buy the whole alien invasion thing though. I mean, how did such an advanced species take YEARS to over run the planet ? How was there news coverage and any semblance of society 6 months after they attacked ? They seem damn near impossible to defeat...

Having not read the 4 pages or so of this thread, I guess most of the particulars have been hashed over by now.

I don't hate Tom Cruise as much as I thought I did. He's actually quite watchable. But I liked this movie less than Oblivion. Even with Emily in it.


Yes, they were hashed out. I agree that the film didn't include enough of the backstory, but it apparently was in the books, and is reasonable.



Did they have to get over the Earth cold and flu season first ? And as a movie watcher, who did NOT read the books, such back story is important ! Like Dr Evil said... " Need the info, people !" Hell, at least make some off hand reference to the long drawn out war. From what I can tell, even w/ those new battle suits, the humans are still getting mowed down like summer grass.

Quote:

.. Catchy slogans, like "the only good bug is a dead bug!"



And don't forget... " We're gonna fight ! And we're gonna win ! "

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, February 16, 2015 12:43 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Having not read the 4 pages or so of this thread, I guess most of the particulars have been hashed over by now. . . .

Did they have to get over the Earth cold and flu season first ? And as a movie watcher, who did NOT read the books, such back story is important ! Like Dr Evil said... " Need the info, people !" Hell, at least make some off hand reference to the long drawn out war. From what I can tell, even w/ those new battle suits, the humans are still getting mowed down like summer grass.

The information you seek was in THE VERY FIRST MINUTE of the movie, while film company logos were running. The Omega arrives on a meteorite that crashes in Germany. (Later, Doctor What's-His-Name will explain it to Cruise.) A map shows the slow spread over FIVE YEARS as the Omega moves to Paris. It is ONE OMEGA versus Earth.

It is rather an arrogant plan to send only one invader, but the Omega's time technology is so good that it should make an Omega overconfident. But the Omega never watched a Tom Cruise movie or else it would have been more cautious.

That meteorite was NOT big enough to carry billions of mimics. The mimics were grown on Earth, with DNA mimicking Earth DNA, custom made to kill Earthlings. I guess the Omega had to make mimics like Nabisco bakes cookies or Winchester loads ammo or Raytheon makes Tomahawk Cruise Missiles. It takes years to cook 7 billion cookies, one for every human, in batches of a few million at a time.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, February 18, 2015 10:45 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Fair enough. I'll rewatch & pay closer attention.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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