FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Accurate Portrayal Of Frontier Planets

POSTED BY: DAKOTASMITH
UPDATED: Thursday, June 10, 2004 03:04
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Saturday, September 21, 2002 3:31 PM

DAKOTASMITH


I want to get a word in edgewise about what's probably going to be the most controversial aspect of the series: the mixing of "western" elements with "SF" elements.

For what it's worth:

Anyone who says that the kind of low-tech stuff we saw on the frontier planets is impossible given a spacefaring culture is simply a city boy (or girl) who's leading too provincial a lifestyle. Case in point:

If I were to take a New Yorker to my grandmother's cabin in rural South Dakota, he wouldn't believe that anywhere so unbelievably remote and primitive could still exist in 21st century America. Quite literally, while the creature comforts and technology involved in cattle ranching have made enormous strides, the lifestyle of the South Dakota cattle rancher has changed little in the last century.

To get to my grandmother's cabin from "civiliation," you'll fly into Rapid City, SD Municipal Airport -- that is, if you're dumb enough to risk your life by disarming yourself and you want put up with having a body cavity search by some minimum-wage rent-a-cop.

From the Rapid airport, you'll drive 60 miles east on I-90 to Wall, where you'll head north out of town on a 2-lane highway.

Within five miles, the 2-lane highway becomes a gravel road. The gravel road becomes progressively less wide and less maintained over the course of the next 40 miles or so.

Ten miles from my grandmother's cabin, the road becomes loosely-gravelled dirt. Five miles from her cabin, the road becomes ruts. Two miles out, it's just a pair of impressions in the field.

You'll leave the impressions and drive a quarter of a mile or so off the Cheyenne River flood plain to a small ranch house that only last summer became equipped with indoor plumbing.

Now, this is a little extreme. Most of the cattle and bison ranchers who live in rural South Dakota have indoor plumbing, satellite dishes, FAX machines, modems, and a few have paid for high-speed Internet via satellite. My grandmother's cabin is essentially deserted except a few weeks out of the year when those of us who spent a lot of time there growing up come out to relax.

Indeed, the only reason we bothered with indoor plumbing was simply because myself and two uncles who use it over a four-day period for deer hunting in November decided that we were getting too old to brave the near-zero temperatures at 2am to go to the outhouse.

But even with the better-equipped ranchers who have all the creature comforts of the 21st century, out back there will be a barn where you saddle the horses when it's time to herd the cattle down the river to the summer grazing land.

I'm in Information Security. In our major city recently (Sioux Falls), I attended a Cisco-hosted seminar where they demonstrated setting up a network to use barbed wire as conductors as opposed to CAT5 ethernet cable.

Now, laugh if you will (and most of us chuckled), but in rural South Dakota, this actually has real-world applications in terms of delivering high-speed Internet to cattle and bison ranchers.

If you're a city boy or girl, you no doubt think that this kind of life is the exception rather than the rule. I'm here to tell you -- having lived in Chicago for ten years as well as having spent much of my life elsewhere -- that the amount of developed, urban land in the United States is massively outweighed by undeveloped farm and ranchland.

It's certainly true that more of the population of the US is urban. But when you get out of that bizarre, sheltered, city lifestyle, things are very different.

(In point of fact, I've wondered if the fact that life is so different for rural dwellers as opposed to urbanites combined with the fact that urbanites don't respect the rural dwellers at all might just lead to another civil war.)

Indeed, I was struck by how the scene at the opening of the show is rather similar to a couple of bar outings I've experienced with my uncles during Deer Camp. You see, there's a little general store about 40 miles from my grandmother's cabin. Because deer hunting in that part of South Dakota is so popular, this general store converts itself into a bar for most of November. They then contract with city girls to come out and strip in the evenings, for the benefit of the deer hunters.

So we'll go to this little general store out in the middle of nowhere. Tere's a gas station attached, and that's it. The girls live in the back of pickup campers or camper attachments that have been rented for the month of November.

So I'm here to tell you that despite what you may happen to think about your own cloistered universe being the norm, there are stranger things in heaven and earth than are dreampt of in your philosophy.

I'd be happy to prove it sometime -- feel free to drop me a line if you want to visit. :D

In the context of Firefly imagine for a moment that you have a planet the size of Earth with, say, 10,000 colonists. That's not even enough people to make a town the size of Rapid City, South Dakota! They're going to be independant, frontier types spreading out from the colony ship's landing point. Sitting in one place to make a big city isn't even going to be possible.

Indeed, I think Firefly's depiction of colonial life is the first realistic depiction I've seen in SF. Where do you city folk think you get your food? You can't have food in the city without a sophisticated infrastructure to support it, and there won't be one on an uninhabited planet. There's going to be a lot of years of subsistence-level farming before that comes into being.

Dakota Smith

No human being has the right -- under any circumstances -- to initiate force against another human being, nor to advocate or delegate its initiation.

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Saturday, September 21, 2002 4:25 PM

TINYTIMM


Undeveloped areas suffer most in a major war. Cross reference: Eastern Kentucky USofA during and after the US Civil War. Some say it never recovered until the Coal Boom of the 20th Century.

Judging by the mixed tech levels (old Traveler fen reveals self) in the bar, I'd say the war was extremely tough on the outer planets. Essentials like beer and whiskey have been replaced with local brews of dubious quality. I suspect that window was "pre-war" and an advertising scheme from some brewer to push his product.

I have been in brewreys in Germany which can trace their roots back hundreds of years.

Jeff
Who is waiting the scene in civilization where Mal opens a can of Michelobe. ;->

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Saturday, September 21, 2002 5:10 PM

SHAMUS


Dakota, Thanks for taking the time to write that up. It rocketh. Being a rural boyo with an urban heart, I wanted to say something similar. You nailed it.

Nothings exceeds like excess.

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Saturday, September 21, 2002 5:40 PM

ZICSOFT


DS: I've been arguing the same thing for a long time. But your examples are much more interesting than mine!

You mention bison ranchers. Are there a lot of those now?

JOSH, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Sunday, September 22, 2002 5:36 AM

DAKOTASMITH


Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
DS: I've been arguing the same thing for a long time. But your examples are much more interesting than mine!


Well, I'm a transplanted country boy at heart. I've got a couple of equally-amusing anecdotes about the red light district in Toronto, Ontario. ;)

Quote:
You mention bison ranchers. Are there a lot of those now?


Not a lot. You might check http://www.dakotabison.com for some of the details, but suffice to say that there are now enough bison ranchers that we're beginning to see bison meat in the meat section of the grocery stores.

Between the (natural) economic demise of the family rancher combined with the desire for lower-fat meats, I wouldn't be surprised to see a few very large (think Dances With Wolves-sized) Buffalo herds in South Dakota.

There are already enough that a couple of outfits are charging very premium prices for guided hunts. And if you really want to get ripped off, just ask the outfit if you can keep the meat as well as the head. ;)

There's also a place in the Black Hills near Custer that will let you pay them for the privilege of watching them drive their buffalo herd ... ;)

Dakota Smith

No human being has the right -- under any circumstances -- to initiate force against another human being, nor to advocate or delegate its initiation.

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Sunday, September 22, 2002 6:22 AM

MILLERNATE


Well considering that I come from a small rural town in Michigan I think I can debate this somewhat. Even given the situation that you've described the technological scenario in Firefly is not well thought out. There have been numerous flaws:

1. Why did the colony planet need a train at all? WOuldn't flight or, since we know they exist, area to area space transport be better (it wouldn't be practical if settlements were close together but that planet sure didn't look like it was close together). One of the Mods as Television Without Pity has been bringing this up constantly (make her stop...please! ). There was also the issue of chinese lanterns on the train but since I didn't actually notice I'm not giving it its own section.

2. Why use revolvers when automatics are easier to make?

3. The fashion. I sincerely doubt that fashions popular in the 1800s will ever come back into style again. Sorry but it might have made more sense to have the clothing be more modern (read: how you see ranch clothing today) might make sense.

I know these are nitpicks but these are the type of thing that Sci-fi fans (the set of people that this who must win over if it is to survive) will notice.

Nathan
"It looks like a great adventure...That's what it is; that's what it feels like. When I saw the pilot, it was really engaging. It was exciting. It was unusual. It threw me off every now and then. I think people will be grabbed by it." - Ron Glass, on the pilot, during an interview with the Indianapolis Star

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Sunday, September 22, 2002 8:28 AM

NOVAGRASS


Quote:

2. Why use revolvers when automatics are easier to make?


Now, did they actually *use* revolvers? I don't recall; however, I do *know* that automatics were used in Serenity in most instances. I think Mal's gun might be a revolver, but there may be sentimental reasons for that (could be Independent-faction issued guns? Could be a memorial from his military days? Maybe it's an heirlum?)

Quote:

(the set of people that this who must win over if it is to survive).


See, I'm not so sure about this. Now, we all know how intense scifi fans can be, but I doubt their demographic is the one absolutely necessary for the show to survive. Firefly must be able to reach a variety of people and have the cross-over appeal, to both "geeks" and non-"geeks" alike, that X-Files had. And I'd even go as far to say that the important set of people is the mainstream one, not the scifi one, especially since it is on the Fox network.

--Dylan Palmer, aka NoVaGrAsS--

"Oh, shoot" - Mal

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Sunday, September 22, 2002 8:35 AM

RINGWRAITH


Quote:
Originally posted by millernate:

1. Why did the colony planet need a train at all? WOuldn't flight or, since we know they exist, area to area space transport be better (it wouldn't be practical if settlements were close together but that planet sure didn't look like it was close together). One of the Mods as Television Without Pity has been bringing this up constantly (make her stop...please! ). There was also the issue of chinese lanterns on the train but since I didn't actually notice I'm not giving it its own section.



I know these are nitpicks but these are the type of thing that Sci-fi fans (the set of people that this who must win over if it is to survive) will notice.



I was reading rec.arts.sf.tv (I think that's the title) and someone was saying that trains have been around a LONG time and big corporations/governments/train unions would have fits if they couldn't have a train; what would they do if everyone had their own private air strip? The government would want control of land and perhaps even a rail line or two. He made a good point that this is how it's been and how it will be. Plus it's a reliable means of transportation and you can charge an arm and a leg for transport, keeping people impoverished.

As for the sci-fi fans Joss et al have to win over, I say

Personally I think the ones who will really rip it apart are the die-hard "trekkies," not really sci-fi fans in general. I mean, movies and TV shows that are sci-fi almost always involve sound in space and yet no one complains about it. It's "artistic license."

That's the same thing with Firefly. Given time Joss will flesh out his "rules" but it won't happen all at once.

I'm sorry you're visiting Television Without Pity. A care package will be sent your way for your troubles.

************************************************
"How will this end?"
"In fire."
--Babylon 5, 'The Coming of Shadows'
************************************************

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Sunday, September 22, 2002 10:02 AM

ALTERNITY


umm... well... yeah... I realize there are backward places in this country. I grew up in one. But to see an even greater contrast between life as we know it and how it might otherwise be, just visit a third world country. We live like gods compared to much of the world.

roj

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Sunday, September 22, 2002 12:06 PM

TERAPH


Quote:
Originally posted by millernate:
3. The fashion. I sincerely doubt that fashions popular in the 1800s will ever come back into style again. Sorry but it might have made more sense to have the clothing be more modern (read: how you see ranch clothing today) might make sense.


Well, as I type this, there is a still of Wash in a tank-top in the upper-left corner of the site.

And Jayne has a t-shirt in this shot: http://www.fox.com/firefly/wallpaper/cargo_800 (insert ".jpg" at end of link)

and this shot: http://www.fox.com/firefly/wallpaper/cockpit_800 (insert ".jpg" at end of link)


It makes sense to me. People start moving "Out West" and some fashion designer starts a line of Wild West-inspired clothing, with the designs and colors recalling those old designs. If they're made cheap and sturdy, and I were a settler, I'd buy them.

Still, it may not be the fashion. It may be utility. Let's see what the city-dwellers wear...

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Sunday, September 22, 2002 12:20 PM

TINYTIMM


Quote:
1. Why did the colony planet need a train at all?

Move goods to heavy and bulky for aircraft. Trains, even with an investment in track of some kind, are very good at that sort of lift.
Quote:
2. Why use revolvers when automatics are easier to make?

Unreliable, low quality ammunition. Not to mention using specialty ammo, such as shot loads, teargas rounds, armor piercing etc. All of which can be handled by a revolver, but a semi-auto is particular what it eats.
Quote:
3. The fashion.

Cheong Sam, enhances the beauty of women has been around centuries. Australian Drover Coat in OILSKIN for Joss' sake! Sillyest piece of clothing ever to command $300 plus. Corsets...I won't go there. Elbow length gloves. Incredibly silly but popular.




Jeff
Whose family was in Retail Rags last generation. Lane Bryant...which may explain my preference for well-rounded beauty.

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Sunday, September 22, 2002 12:42 PM

RINGWRAITH


Thanks for posting the images but I do have a small request:

next time, could you please post a link to the images or post images that are smaller? I don't have a high speed connection (or a fast computer) and big images like that tend to cripple this poor little thing.

Plus the images are right from the Fox website and this might be a violation of copyright, unless you specificially say that they're from the Fox website. Best bet would be to just put a link to these images, that way Haken doesn't have to worry about any lawyers breathing down his door.

I don't mind images but those were just a tad too big. Really nice, but a little big.

Thanks.

************************************************
"How will this end?"
"In fire."
--Babylon 5, 'The Coming of Shadows'
************************************************

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Sunday, September 22, 2002 12:45 PM

ZICSOFT


Quote:
Unreliable, low quality ammunition. Not to mention using specialty ammo, such as shot loads, teargas rounds, armor piercing etc. All of which can be handled by a revolver, but a semi-auto is particular what it eats.
Count on Jeff to clear up the little mysteries of firearms! Which also explains an interesting detail in Serenity. (Not really a spoiler, but I wouldn't want to piss off certain people.)

Select to view spoiler:

There's a shootout involving Mal and a government agent. Mal, of course, has his trusty 6-shooter, while the G-man packs what looks vaguely like a semi-auto. It seemed to me that the gun was bulkier and the barrel smaller than contemporary guns of that type, but I could have been mistaken. And of course the government would have access to expensive factory-produced rounds.



I was going to quote that famous story about General Patton switching to his famous revolvers after an army-issue automatic went off unexpectedly. Just a story, alas:

http://www.pattonhq.com/unknown/chap05.html

JOSH, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Sunday, September 22, 2002 4:42 PM

TERAPH


Quote:
next time, could you please post a link to the images or post images that are smaller?


All I did was paste the URL (and I picked the smallest images). The discussion board actually brought them up.

I'll see if I can adjust the post so it doesn't do that...

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Sunday, September 22, 2002 5:35 PM

MILLERNATE


Quote:

I was reading rec.arts.sf.tv (I think that's the title) and someone was saying that trains have been around a LONG time and big corporations/governments/train unions would have fits if they couldn't have a train;


Well if you were reading RAST (which I doubt since that group is having a nice big pile on regarding that show) then the same post was made at alt.tv.buffy-v.-slayer as well . Actually though the corporations etc. wouldn't really matter since it seems that The Alliance is exploiting the planets directly thus they can tell any corps. (which I'm not sure of how many there'd actually be, fascism doesn't do a great job promoting non-government business) to buzz off.

Quote:

what would they do if everyone had their own private air strip? The government would want control of land and perhaps even a rail line or two. He made a good point that this is how it's been and how it will be. Plus it's a reliable means of transportation and you can charge an arm and a leg for transport, keeping people impoverished.


THe main problem is that Train travel is one of the most inefficient means of transporting goods in a situation when you have a spread out population. This is because you need to worry about far too many costs: 1. The potential cost in money and time to provide maintenace for the train itself. 2. The cost needed to build the track in both time and money. 3. The cost needed in both time and money to provide maintenance for the track.

When you have a fairly spread out population (as it seemed in that world) this simply isn't time or cost effective, especially when you have space travel. Far easier to build one centralized landing area for each town/settlement and drop the cargo there. While you'd probably have the same number of things in terms of monetary cost the time saved would make it far more effective.

Quote:


As for the sci-fi fans Joss et al have to win over, I say


The problem is that there has never been a Sci-FI series that has succeeded without the support of this group (just ask the corpse of Earth 2 how well it survived the absence of support from that group).

Quote:


Personally I think the ones who will really rip it apart are the die-hard "trekkies," not really sci-fi fans in general. I mean, movies and TV shows that are sci-fi almost always involve sound in space and yet no one complains about it. It's "artistic license."


Do a groups.google.com search for Firefly and check out some of the Sci-fi Usenet groups. Most of these people aren't die hard trekkies and they are happily raking it over the coals as crap. And, unlike elsewhere in the world, the internet/usenet is a very accurate representation of what these people are thinking.

Quote:

I'm sorry you're visiting Television Without Pity. A care package will be sent your way for your troubles.


NOt a fan I take it? By the way...care package? Will it include the Angel UK DVDs?



Nathan
"It looks like a great adventure...That's what it is; that's what it feels like. When I saw the pilot, it was really engaging. It was exciting. It was unusual. It threw me off every now and then. I think people will be grabbed by it." - Ron Glass, on the pilot, during an interview with the Indianapolis Star

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Sunday, September 22, 2002 5:50 PM

PANDORA


Quote:
Originally posted by millernate:
There was also the issue of chinese lanterns on the train but since I didn't actually notice I'm not giving it its own section.


Well, I can't speak to planes, trains, and automobiles, but there are two things I can say about Chinese laterns, and one is kind of spoilery from Playboy's interview with the delightful Morena Baccarin:

Select to view spoiler:

Apparently, China became the dominant force on Earth prior to the dispersion of its peoples throughout space, resulting in the heavy influence it seems to have had on fashion, home decor, and language.



Secondly, Asian art is really beautiful and pretty cool. Lots of interior decorators, fashion designers, and even architects in the West have implemented Asian design concepts and artistic styles in their work. Neat.

Quote:

3. The fashion. I sincerely doubt that fashions popular in the 1800s will ever come back into style again. Sorry but it might have made more sense to have the clothing be more modern (read: how you see ranch clothing today) might make sense.


Well, I don't see why not. Hell, ball gowns highly reminiscent of King Louis XIV's court were highly en vogue for most of the mid-nineties, and you can still see such influences today. Empire waisted gowns, originating from Napoleon's wife, Josephine, (whose style in turn was probably influenced by Hellenic and Roman women's clothing back during the days of the Roman empire and before) are in and out every fifteen/twenty years or so, and don't even get me started on hair.

Quote:
I know these are nitpicks but these are the type of thing that Sci-fi fans (the set of people that this who must win over if it is to survive) will notice.


Mmmm... I'm not so sure about that. First that all sci-fi fans will notice/care if they do notice, and second that all sci-fi fans must be won over for the show to do well. The show stands on its own merit, even beyond the genre. While it's true that genrephiles are going to have to generate the initial buzz, not all SpecFic fans are nitpickers, or at least unwilling to look past whatever it is they might nitpick. After all, there's a difference between nitpicking and just looking for things with which one can find fault.

Pandora
lovely.

"Computer games don't affect kids negatively; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music."

-Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc.
1988

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Sunday, September 22, 2002 6:16 PM

JOHNNYANGEL


The point has come up with respect to America's new interest in the Middle East. They've got a real mixed bag of technology out there. Cellular phones are higher tech than phone lines, but they're much easier to implement. You don't have to have a lot of infrastructure. There are also cultural factors. The Amish have taken to cell phones, which seems bizzare, since they still won't use cars.

I'm happy with the balance Firefly seems to strike. I can believe that in a world that doesn't have the infrastructure or culture that ours did, horses may be more practical than tractors. I'm convinced that they gave this a lot of thought because of the scene in which Mal gets thrown through a force field window, which flickers and fixes itself. That detail tells us that this is a world in which this technology, amazing to us, is cheaper than glass.

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Monday, September 23, 2002 7:26 AM

SADGEEZER


Hmm... All the arguments are pretty good, but I honestly don't think Joss gives a damn. I think he's thinking characterisation, characterisation, characterisation - bugger the rest!

The technology angle is irritating as hell for this Limey (downloading episodes from the newsgroup) who thinks it arrogant as hell that one of the least prevalent of world cultures in the last thousand years (19th century west continental America) be the one that all future 'frontier folk' should choose to emulate!. There can be no other real reason for a wild west space frontier in Whedonverse than because he’s a wild west fan. Maybe some people that aren’t from the USA are Roundheads or Cavaliers fans or a Samurai fans or Conquistadors fans.

As for the lack of aliens and low tech argument, watching the root'n toot'n wild west show with six-shooters and pump action rifles ….. and spaceships ... hmmm. It doesn't come much more alien than that!

I think Joss can handle criticism of his show, he knows we love him. It's just that I honestly don't think he gives a toss about the details. Real sci fi fans (the scary sort that go to conventions dressed as Clingons), those that look for at least a small amount of realism in their sci fi will chew up Firefly and spit it out! And I think we should be prepared for that. Joss didn’t write a sci fi show in the same genre as Babylon 5 or Farscape or Andromeda (the thought behind the weaponry in Andromeda was exceptional and actually made the show, for me, more interesting)– Firefly is different. It should be taken as seriously (in terms of a sci fi show) as say Buffy as a documentary about Californian teenagers.

PS. TV without pity is a cool site by the way. They are very objective (and funny too).



SadGeezers Guide to Firefly
http://www.sadgeezer.com/firefly

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Monday, September 23, 2002 12:04 PM

RINGWRAITH


Quote:
Originally posted by millernate:


Well if you were reading RAST (which I doubt since that group is having a nice big pile on regarding that show) then the same post was made at alt.tv.buffy-v.-slayer as well .


Uh, actually I have been reading there, but only recently (no, not posting there) and I'm avoiding the Buffy ng because I tend to not read there in the "off season." So please don't say I haven't been reading there when in fact I have. Thank you.

Quote:


Do a groups.google.com search for Firefly and check out some of the Sci-fi Usenet groups. Most of these people aren't die hard trekkies and they are happily raking it over the coals as crap. And, unlike elsewhere in the world, the internet/usenet is a very accurate representation of what these people are thinking.


Actually I think the people on USENET don't reflect what's going on in real life. Ripping things apart (TV shows, music, movies) has become a fad at most places. If USENET had an accurate representation of what people think then a few years ago the only people who watched/liked the XF were teenage girls who wanted Mulder and Scully to get it on.

At RAST there were people ripping Firefly apart (and I'm sure at other ng's--like I said, I think it's trendy for some people to tear something down because it makes them feel better) but some people there did like it. The one guy at RAST who didn't like the show (rated it a 2.0 out of 5), one of his reasons was that Joss has made sure that "God" is absent on the Serenity. Uh, yeah...he figured that out how? You can please some of the people some of the time...

USENET is no more accurate than this forum. Yeah there's a lot of OPINIONS there but that doesn't necessarily reflect what other people think.

Quote:



NOt a fan I take it? By the way...care package? Will it include the Angel UK DVDs?


Mostly because like a lot of USENET, it's like it's fashionable to rip something to shreds. "Look how cool and sarcastic I am! I rock!"


************************************************
"How will this end?"
"In fire."
--Babylon 5, 'The Coming of Shadows'
************************************************

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Monday, September 23, 2002 12:12 PM

SHUGGIE


Quote:
Originally posted by SadGeezer:
Hmm... All the arguments are pretty good, but I honestly don't think Joss gives a damn. I think he's thinking characterisation, characterisation, characterisation - bugger the rest!


I agree - Joss is all about story and characters. Scientific accuracy is not high on his list of priorities.

Quote:
The technology angle is irritating as hell for this Limey (downloading episodes from the newsgroup) who thinks it arrogant as hell that one of the least prevalent of world cultures in the last thousand years (19th century west continental America) be the one that all future 'frontier folk' should choose to emulate!. There can be no other real reason for a wild west space frontier in Whedonverse than because he’s a wild west fan. Maybe some people that aren’t from the USA are Roundheads or Cavaliers fans or a Samurai fans or Conquistadors fans.


Right now the USA is the only super-power left. China isn't quite a super-power but it's got sheer weight of numbers. So it's at least one plausible future that they'd form the Alliance.

Roundheads and Cavaliers seem distinctly implausible to me on the other hand.

Samurai - hmm maybe we'll see that in episode 2 or beyond?

I don't think it's arrogance.

Oh and I'm a limey too.

Shug

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Tuesday, September 24, 2002 3:11 PM

DELVO


Random responses to multiple people here...

A train doesn't waste energy moving up and down more than necessary, and it is the kind of thing that people can buy by pooling their resources even if they can't afford their own vehicles to do the equivalent job, and, since high speeds are at work here, a train also provides much less ærodynamic resistance than an equivalent cargo capaciy capacity in the form of multiple small craft.

Automatics aren't easier to build than revolvers, but they are moretroublesome to maintain and more prone to reliability problems.

"Fashion" in the Old West wasn't fashion. It was suited to the work and the environment. These people are in a similar environment, and thus it's quite plausible that they'd either coincidentally end up dressing similarly or even base their attire on what was done in a previous set of people under such conditions... especially since it is reasonable to presume that human culture in 500 years will still be heavily influenced by Occidental heritage, and the USA's Old West is the only frontier environment that Occidental people have called home.

To me, the biggest problem is the un-ærodynamic ship and the apparently jet engines (which would guzzle fuel, which they don't seem to carry much of, and which wouldn't work in space). But I can imagine various ways out of that...

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Wednesday, September 25, 2002 11:06 AM

ZICSOFT


Quote:
To me, the biggest problem is the un-ærodynamic ship and the apparently jet engines (which would guzzle fuel, which they don't seem to carry much of, and which wouldn't work in space). But I can imagine various ways out of that...
When I first saw pictures of Serenity that was my big issue. But although they look like jet engine (they might even be using real life jet engines as props) they're obviously not. Jet engine intakes are dangerous places, but not as dangerous as these!

JOSH, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Sunday, September 29, 2002 9:00 AM

REYVNDARKNIGHT


Quote:
Originally posted by TinyTimm:
Undeveloped areas suffer most in a major war. Cross reference: Eastern Kentucky USofA during and after the US Civil War. Some say it never recovered until the Coal Boom of the 20th Century.

Judging by the mixed tech levels (old Traveler fen reveals self) in the bar, I'd say the war was extremely tough on the outer planets.


^5. Traveller fans unite!!!

Here in my neck of the woods, I and my friends got together and watched the premier episode and just watched in amazement as the epsode unfolded. We began to wonder if Joss Whedon had set up some type of covert observation of our Traveller RPG sessions. Everything from the opening bar fight to crew interaction to the heist on the train was familiar to us as most of those situations has occurred in some shape form or fashion in our Traveller games.

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Sunday, September 29, 2002 1:01 PM

TINYTIMM


Quote:
Originally posted by ReyvnDarKnight:
^5. Traveller fans unite!!!


I just flashed on Joss at his workstation.

Suddenly he stops hammering on the keyboard, saves, and then rolls a pair of percentage dice, looks at a battered, tattered, table...curses, and goes back to hammering.

Jeff
Who has a set of games dice, including the infamous four sided foot penetrator...around here someplace.

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Wednesday, October 2, 2002 10:16 AM

WHATNOW


There are breweries in Germany that go back 1700 years. I have a reproduction of a mug from that time period.

Whatnow

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Thursday, October 3, 2002 9:45 AM

ZICSOFT


Quote:
Originally posted by TinyTimm:
Quote:
Originally posted by ReyvnDarKnight:
^5. Traveller fans unite!!!


I just flashed on Joss at his workstation.

Suddenly he stops hammering on the keyboard, saves, and then rolls a pair of percentage dice, looks at a battered, tattered, table...curses, and goes back to hammering.

He's always struck me as something of a computer geek. So he'd used random number software. Those hyperpolyhedral dice are way too low tech!

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Monday, October 7, 2002 2:42 AM

LOONYTOON


To varios people.

Old west clothing: If you bother to look, outdoorsman and farmers from almost every country in the 19th century and now dress quite similarly. Plus, the west was one of VERY few frontiers left during the 19th century.

Autos VS. Revolvers:this is an ongoing debate in the real world, but this much is clear. autos are less reliable. autos are less powerful for there size. autos are harder to fix with crude tools. autos are usually less accurate.

Trains VS. Planes: if you had ANY idea as to how much fuel a C-5 galaxy, C-17 globemaster or ilyushin IL-76 burnt per hour, you would not be using this argument. It doesn`t strike most people in civilized countrys, as most people are affluent enough to afford plane tickets, but look at amtrak! plus, train tracks haul more cargo per dollar of construction than a road. easier to build to.

Non-aerodynamic ship: serenity is the most thought out ship I have seen if you consider a few things(all the enterprises are the least thought out, they are made to look cool). Assume that the large boost engine(the big glowing butt) has to be clear, than having the cargo door where it is, with the cockpit mounted out of the way, makes sense. With the large pivoting outboard engines, try to keep the ship hovering with those mounted 50 feet behind the center of gravity! you`d flip the ship on it a$$! And they have to be mounted outboard that far to prevent scorching the hull, plus to give better control response.

Not realistic: there sensor and piloting systems are QUITE realistic. Look back on old Star Trek episodes and think how many problems would have been avoided if one of those dolts had thought to bring an IR scanner! Romulan warbirds would stand out like a sore thumb! And every time someone takes control of enterprise, its through the software, while break the hardware like saffron did, there screwed! Real guns, fourwheelers. Hell, I`d take a colt .45 over a phaser in a firefight anyday! though modern day fourwheelers 500 years in the future does seem a bit odd!



P.S. tinytimm, do you post over at marlintalk?

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Monday, October 7, 2002 1:42 PM

TINYTIMM


Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:
To varios people.

Autos VS. Revolvers:this is an ongoing debate in the real world, but this much is clear. autos are less reliable. autos are less powerful for there size. autos are harder to fix with crude tools. autos are usually less accurate.?

Autos are more reliable, see the US Army tests a revolver couldn't pass the first mud test.
Autos are just as powerful in equal or lesser size see recent developments in the Glocken Kin.
Autos are easier to fix because most parts interchange w/o hand fitting.
Autos are usually less accurate, agreed in comparable combat pistols, but I wish I could afford my own comparison test.
Ongoing debate? You bet!!

Quote:
P.S. tinytimm, do you post over at marlintalk?

Sorry, no. I neither fish nor lever action.

Jeff
Who has fired Colt Automatics older than his late father, and they were still being issued to the US Army in 1976!

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Monday, October 7, 2002 1:56 PM

ZICSOFT


Quote:
Autos are easier to fix because most parts interchange w/o hand fitting.
But those parts come from a factory, right?

A Model A enthusiast once told me that parts for this car were extremely easy to fabricate. Which is why so many are still running, 60 years after they went out of production, and 30 years after Sears stopped selling parts for them.

So if we go by the Model A standard -- it's repairable even if nobody still makes parts for it -- which is more reliable, the revolver or the auto?

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Monday, October 7, 2002 3:00 PM

TINYTIMM


Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Quote:
Autos are easier to fix because most parts interchange w/o hand fitting.
But those parts come from a factory, right?

So if we go by the Model A standard -- it's repairable even if nobody still makes parts for it -- which is more reliable, the revolver or the auto?


Still the auto. In most instances. Spring steel or music wire springs are the parts most often broken. The Revolver wears down where the hand pulls the cylinder. If you don't have a new ejector star, you must build it up by welding and then file and heat treat by eye to repair. One mistake and..."starting all over again, is gonna be tough..."

Jeff
Who has seen some pretty crude weapons in museums, but no crude revolvers.

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Monday, October 7, 2002 3:05 PM

ZICSOFT


Quote:
Originally posted by TinyTimm:


Still the auto. In most instances. Spring steel or music wire springs are the parts most often broken. The Revolver wears down where the hand pulls the cylinder. If you don't have a new ejector star, you must build it up by welding and then file and heat treat by eye to repair. One mistake and..."starting all over again, is gonna be tough..."

Jeff
Who has seen some pretty crude weapons in museums, but no crude revolvers.


So you're saying that auto technology is basically much simpler than revolver tech. But if that's true, why did revolvers appear first?

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Monday, October 7, 2002 3:32 PM

TINYTIMM


Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:

So you're saying that auto technology is basically much simpler than revolver tech. But if that's true, why did revolvers appear first?


Because very early revolvers started out in the days of the flintlock ignition system. Sam Colt made his first revolvers for the percussion ignition system. See http://www.emf-company.com/1851-colt-navy-revolver.htm

Semi-autos had to wait for fixed cartridges and smokeless powder. Black powder gums up the works and only cartridges feed reliably from magazines. See the 1896 Mauser http://arms2armor.com/Firearms/germ1896.htm

Winston Churchill carried a Mauser and was quite fond of it.

Jeff
Who has never managed to shoot a 96 Mauser.

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Monday, October 7, 2002 3:47 PM

ZICSOFT


Quote:
Originally posted by TinyTimm:

Because very early revolvers started out in the days of the flintlock ignition system. Sam Colt made his first revolvers for the percussion ignition system.

Semi-autos had to wait for fixed cartridges and smokeless powder. Black powder gums up the works and only cartridges feed reliably from magazines.

OK, that makes sense. So what made the semi-auto feasible had nothing to do with machining (which was my ignorant assumption) and everything to do with chemistry.

So that takes us back to the question: why does Mal pack a six-shooter? You explained to us before why a revolver might be a superior weapon on a space ship, but he also uses it for groundside fighting. It can't be an ammunition issue, since he's obviously not using black powder. (Unless fixed loads are hard to come by, and that doesn't seem likely.) Perhaps he's just a revolver bigot?

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Monday, October 7, 2002 4:03 PM

LOONYTOON


No, its not simpler. It does wear down on the cylinder and star, but there are quite a few 100 year old revelvers, most actually, that still work fine, with all original parts. As for reliability, An autos parts all must work in balance for it to perform a delicate balance, to cycle properly, whereas a revolver can be quite worn out, it might have horrid accuracy, but it will still function.

As for power, show me a auto the size of the old vestpocket pistols, or the new NAA mini .22s. Show me a auto as powerful as the smith mountain gun in .44, or the old high standard bulldogs.

There is a reason outdoorsman, and Patton, choose revolvers.

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Monday, October 7, 2002 4:19 PM

MILLERNATE


Quote:

Trains VS. Planes: if you had ANY idea as to how much fuel a C-5 galaxy, C-17 globemaster or ilyushin IL-76 burnt per hour, you would not be using this argument. It doesn`t strike most people in civilized countrys, as most people are affluent enough to afford plane tickets, but look at amtrak! plus, train tracks haul more cargo per dollar of construction than a road. easier to build to.


Since I'm the main person on the anti-show side of the argument I'll address this (and also since I don't know beans about guns so I can't participate in that discussion with any degree of intelligence). My point wasn't actually about trains vs. Planes. My argument was based on the fact that the individual settlements on the planet seemed to be extraordinarily far apart thus potentially making a spacecraft more efficient than a train. This is especially true when it comes to time management (which would be very important to a struggling frontier planet as it is likely to be stretched thin in regards to personnel). Think about it: Spacecraft - one stop maintenance, you really only need to look after the vechile itself. Compare this with a train - untold miles of, in this case, highly technical track (the train flew, which implies tech) this would take up a ton of available man hours that would be better spent elsewhere. They'd be paying in time which is just as important as money to a struggling area and, since the trains operations are technical, the cost savings would be negligible.


Nathan
"It looks like a great adventure...That's what it is; that's what it feels like. When I saw the pilot, it was really engaging. It was exciting. It was unusual. It threw me off every now and then. I think people will be grabbed by it." - Ron Glass, on the pilot, during an interview with the Indianapolis Star

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Monday, October 7, 2002 4:31 PM

LOONYTOON


I disagree. All the track would have to be is a ferrous rail, the train creates the power. And did you know that many modern jets require up to or over 40-50 man hours for every flight hour. They are much more expensive, the main reason trains are still used for freight is because they are massivly cheaper than aircraft. It just wouldn`t be feasible.

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Monday, October 7, 2002 4:44 PM

MILLERNATE


For a Flying Train? The track would likely have at least some technical work (especially since I have a half decent suspicion that the idea of it flying was a play off on high speed rail, which would definitely need the tech.). And considering that they already need spacecraft to drop off things? Far cheaper to just have the spacecraft drop them off at the individual areas since there seemed so few of them.




Nathan
"It looks like a great adventure...That's what it is; that's what it feels like. When I saw the pilot, it was really engaging. It was exciting. It was unusual. It threw me off every now and then. I think people will be grabbed by it." - Ron Glass, on the pilot, during an interview with the Indianapolis Star

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Monday, October 7, 2002 4:54 PM

DELVO


Did the train even have a track on screen? If we didn't see one, we can't assume it's there. (But we can be pretty sure it is if we saw it. )

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Monday, October 7, 2002 4:56 PM

MILLERNATE


Well I remember seeing it if that helps, of course I could rewatch the episode but I hated that ep. and I don't want to put any more wear on my tape than is necessary (for some reason my VHS tape seems to be degrading rapidly, ).



Nathan
"It looks like a great adventure...That's what it is; that's what it feels like. When I saw the pilot, it was really engaging. It was exciting. It was unusual. It threw me off every now and then. I think people will be grabbed by it." - Ron Glass, on the pilot, during an interview with the Indianapolis Star

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Monday, October 7, 2002 4:58 PM

DELVO


A "when things go wrong" note on gunds: I've been told repeatedly by a bunch of guys who know their guns better than me that the procedure is very different if a revolver misfires versus if a semiautomatic misfires. With a revolver, the procedure is to pull the trigger again; it goes boom and the bullet comes out. With a semiautomatic, you call time-out and perform minor surgery on it. I figure any time I can afford that luxury is a time I probably had no reason to pull the trigger in the first place.

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Tuesday, October 8, 2002 12:16 AM

TINYTIMM


Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
So that takes us back to the question: why does Mal pack a six-shooter? You explained to us before why a revolver might be a superior weapon on a space ship, but he also uses it for groundside fighting.....Perhaps he's just a revolver bigot?

Hey! I like some of those revolver bigots! I'm married to one. Old Frontier saying: "Beware the One Gun Man. He 'prolly knows how to use it."
Some people feel that one defensive pistol carried constantly, exercised daily and carried in the same location at all times, is the best policy for defense. Me? We can't carry in my state, unless we are seriously rich, or can buy a local sheriff. I'm still looking for the "honey gun" which will magically make me into a good shot.

Jeff
Who knows the journey is often more important than the goal.

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Tuesday, October 8, 2002 12:25 AM

TINYTIMM


Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:
As for power, show me a auto the size of the old vestpocket pistols, or the new NAA mini .22s. Show me a auto as powerful as the smith mountain gun in .44, or the old high standard bulldogs.

Vestpocket? Browning .25
Powerful? Desert Eagle .50AE
Charter Arms Bulldogs (yes I owned one)? Glock 36.

Jeff
Who notes he wouldn't mind having a few of the above.

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Tuesday, October 8, 2002 12:33 AM

TINYTIMM


Quote:
Originally posted by Delvo:
A "when things go wrong" note on guns: I've been told repeatedly by a bunch of guys who know their guns better than me that the procedure is very different if a revolver misfires versus if a semiautomatic misfires. With a revolver, the procedure is to pull the trigger again; it goes boom and the bullet comes out. With a semiautomatic, you call time-out and perform minor surgery on it. I figure any time I can afford that luxury is a time I probably had no reason to pull the trigger in the first place.

Ah, there's the rub. Fact is with modern ammo it's unlikely you will have a dud round. Procedure for a revolver: Pull trigger. Procedure for semi-auto: Slap bottom of magazine, cycle slide, pull trigger.
But, if you have a "high primer" the auto will slap it back where it belongs. The revolver needs considerable study and care.

Jeff
Who suggests a reasonable compromise, carry a semi-auto on your right and a revolver on your left. Double your pleasure, double your fun, carry two pistols instead of one! (A good Ka-bar US Marine knife is nice too, when things are slow you can always whittle.

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Tuesday, October 8, 2002 5:20 AM

LOONYTOON


While I certainly agree with your compromise, if I went into real combat, I would carry a colt 1911A1 in a strongside half flap with a 4" colt python .357 in a shoulder holster, with a select longarm. However, the .22 mini revolver is more powerful then the browning .25, 75 footpounds is the stongest .25, 160 ft,lbs for a hi-velocity .22,rather large difference, wouldn`t you say? And The desert eagle is much larger than small .44 magnums, or even some bowen alpine rugers(I want one desparately!) in .475 and .500 linebaugh. and what does the glock 36 fire(I don`t keep up on the combat tupperware), .45acp? .44 spl beats it out in the power and versatility department, much as I love the .45!

As for delvos comment, he is correct. And ammo is almost certain to be substandard on the frontier, possibly reloaded. When in a close range combat situation, it is much easier to simply stroke the trigger again, then to unjam a auto(And I have seen them jammed to the point of needing to be stripped)

As to the train argument, it is also transporting people, who would not already be on a ship. Plus, say the ship has cargo for 10 small villages, it must takeoff and land 10 times, it would be much easier to drop it at a central point and distribute it by rail. That ship probly has some sort of fusion reactor, but it would still take much more fuel to cover the same distance, you can`t escape physics. The train must push against one force, drag to go forward, while a ship must also overcome gravity, while flying at a faster rate, without any visible airfoils, no less.

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Tuesday, October 8, 2002 11:22 AM

TINYTIMM


Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:
While I certainly agree with your compromise, if I went into real combat, I would carry a colt 1911A1 in a strongside half flap with a 4" colt python .357 in a shoulder holster, with a select longarm.

No you wouldn't. That would be pushing 10 lbs of unneccesary gear. With leather, ammo and cleaning equipment. In combat you have to haul a lot of gear and ammo for other troops.

Quote:
However, the .22 mini revolver is more powerful then the browning .25, 75 footpounds is the stongest .25, 160 ft,lbs for a hi-velocity .22,
Have you crono'd and computed the engergy out of a 1.25" Mini revolver barrel?

Quote:
And The desert eagle is much larger than small .44 magnums...
But who carries a small .44 Magnum?

Quote:
..what does the glock 36 fire(I don`t keep up on the combat tupperware), .45acp? .44 spl beats it ...
Not with the bullets in .45ACP and .44 Special over the counter.

Quote:
..When in a close range combat situation, it is much easier to simply stroke the trigger again, then to unjam a auto(And I have seen them jammed to the point of needing to be stripped)...
Under ideal circumstances for the revolver. But the first mud or dust storem and the revolver is gonna need serious work. A bulged/ blown case head and the revolver is a club until a gunsmith works it over.

Jeff
Who LOVES this kind of stuff. You want .270 Win or 7x51mm in the next debate or .243 vs. .25-06?

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Tuesday, October 8, 2002 11:26 AM

ZICSOFT


Quote:
Originally posted by TinyTimm:
Jeff
Who LOVES this kind of stuff. You want .270 Win or 7x51mm in the next debate or .243 vs. .25-06?
Jeff is a gun geek!

Everybody's some kind of geek. So it's not at all nice to sneer at geeks. And in the case of gun geeks, it's also not safe!

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Tuesday, October 8, 2002 12:53 PM

LOONYTOON


7x51mm? Jack O`connor would be rolling in his grave! I don`t beleive the short revolver barrel would make all that much difference, as even a .22 short is as powerful as the .25. As to not carrying a small .44, I know a lot more people with smith mountain guns than desert eagles. And the .44spl has the POTENTIAL to be more powerful than the .45acp. Most diehard shooters reload, and I`ll bet that in the firefly universe, many people would roll there own to save money, and make better loads. And yes, I would carry the aformentioned weapons into combat, many soldiers carry 2 sidearms(you were the one to suggest it), as any combat I would participate in would most likely be guerilla warfare(hoping we don`t get into another war before I`m out of the draft age), where the other guys can carry there own shit. With a 20 pound pack, I can survive in the woods a LONG time(I`m from Alaska, I hunt).

And try a bulged case or seperated head in a auto, its not gonna be unjammed in a jif, either!

And I love debating this sort of thing to, just don`t get me started on american VS. import cars!
(I would take the .25-06 and the .270,I like the whelan to!)

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Tuesday, October 8, 2002 1:01 PM

TINYTIMM


Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Jeff is a gun geek!
Everybody's some kind of geek. So it's not at all nice to sneer at geeks. And in the case of gun geeks, it's also not safe!

I used to be a professional gun geek and an amature computer geek, now it's the other way around.
Actually Gun Geeks are very polite, only trolls on rec.guns are abusive. The rest of us know better.

Jeff
Who is always polite.

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Tuesday, October 8, 2002 1:17 PM

TINYTIMM


Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:
7x51mm? Jack O`connor would be rolling in his grave!
I think Mr. O'Conner would be using the more modern case, with the stronger head and efficient use of space. ;->

Quote:
I don`t believe the short revolver barrel would make all that much difference, as even a .22 short is as powerful as the .25.
Ah, but it does, I've fired a pair of old single action Berettas, .22 Short and .25 ACP. The centerfire is allegedly more reliable and the .25ACP had more penetration in phone books, wood and 55 gallon drums.

Quote:
I know a lot more people with smith mountain guns than desert eagles. And the .44spl has the POTENTIAL to be more powerful than the .45acp.
Trouble with "potential" is the people who push it and .44 Specials up to .44 Magnum velocity, which is tough on the light guns.

Quote:
And yes, I would carry the aformentioned weapons into combat, many soldiers carry 2 sidearms(you were the one to suggest it),
No, I suggest it for people who carry sidearms as defensive weapons in dangerous situations. With a rifle around the handgun is superfulous. OK, a few people like a small sidearm as well as a rifle.

Quote:
...as any combat I would participate in would most likely be guerilla warfare(hoping we don`t get into another war before I`m out of the draft age), where the other guys can carry there own shit. With a 20 pound pack, I can survive in the woods a LONG time(I`m from Alaska, I hunt).
AT weapons, HE, Mines and especially belts for the Squad Automatic Weapon and/or weapons launcher. The squad supports the heavier weapons.

Quote:
And try a bulged case or seperated head in a auto, its not gonna be unjammed in a jif, either!
Slap and cycle usually get it. (It took me a while to get reloading down pat. ;->

Quote:
And I love debating this sort of thing to, just don`t get me started on american VS. import cars!

VW Golf w/1.8T for commuting.

Jeff
Who is still driving the old van...looking at the Golf and going...sigh...

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Tuesday, October 8, 2002 2:58 PM

ZICSOFT


Quote:
Originally posted by TinyTimm:

Actually Gun Geeks are very polite, only trolls on rec.guns are abusive. The rest of us know better.
I've never followed rec.guns, but I know what you mean. It seems to me that the more weapons somebody controls the more polite they are. As is demonstrated by the radio chatter between warships.

I'm reminded of a story I heard about the making of my favorite gangster movie, The Long Good Friday. The star (Bob Hoskins in his pre-Disney period) played a really nasty mob boss. He was shooting a scene in a pub, with some real gangsters as extras. He started to yell at somebody, so one of the extras took him aside. "You don't need to yell at him," he told Hoskins. "He knows who you are."

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Map of the Verse discussion
Mon, April 29, 2024 22:33 - 171 posts
Other actors on Firefly.
Mon, April 29, 2024 21:50 - 92 posts
Zoic studios best work on Firefly
Wed, February 14, 2024 07:12 - 1 posts
Firefly Honest Trailer
Tue, June 27, 2023 16:58 - 8 posts
Chronological Order of Episodes.
Sat, November 26, 2022 16:47 - 39 posts
The Unmade Episodes
Sun, June 12, 2022 14:39 - 1 posts
Episode sequence?
Wed, February 16, 2022 00:58 - 9 posts
Questions about Sound in Space
Mon, November 29, 2021 20:47 - 41 posts
Itinerary for Serenity during the 9 months of Firefly/Serenity.
Thu, June 20, 2019 20:39 - 21 posts
The Savant Crew
Wed, May 15, 2019 13:47 - 32 posts
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