Another miniscule detail by Zeek

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Another miniscule detail

POSTED BY: ZEEK
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 23:13
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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 5:50 AM

So, I was watching War Stories last night for the 3248712332th time and I noticed something new for the 3248712332th time.

When they just get done with the whacky ribcage story, Mal comes in to grab an apple of his own. Right then we see a brief close up of River where she's making her insightful face. Like she just picked up on something and she's trying to make sense of it. Now what would that be during this scene? The jealousy coming off of Wash? Zoe's loyalty to Mal? Was this the point where she started reverting back into crazy River, "going back like apple bits"?

Haven't read a thread with some good old crazy theories on a miniscule detail in a while. Thought we could use more of them.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 8:32 AM

SINGATE

Actually I think she just got that about to throw up feeling. I've seen it on the faces of friends so many times that its hard for me to think its anything else.

_________________________________________________

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 8:52 AM

DAVESHAYNE

I'm somewhat leaning toward the nausea explanation myself but if it is portentious (SP?) perhaps it's Rivers first inkling of Jayne's betrayal. Perhaps catching a glimpse of Jayne's guilt so quickly after Wash and Zoe point out his uncharecteristic largess has started her on the path to sorting out the events of Ariel.

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 9:10 AM

HUMBUG

I always thought she felt sick because of all the talk about fellow soldiers being blown up by Grizwalds (grenades hidden inside apples).......

.....but I also like the idea about her being able to "read" Jayne's betrayal of them both on Ariel.....

.....and I wouldn't be surprised if she started to go a little crazy again at the thought of going back to the academy and seeing the "hands of blue" again...... (she mentions it in the hospital when they're going out of the hospital, just before they're "bound by law" - Simon doesn't listen of course, the boob! - she's READER, for goodness sake!))................

Humbug

"You know what the first rule of flying is?... Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." Mal, BDM

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 9:23 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
I'm somewhat leaning toward the nausea explanation myself but if it is portentious (SP?) perhaps it's Rivers first inkling of Jayne's betrayal. Perhaps catching a glimpse of Jayne's guilt so quickly after Wash and Zoe point out his uncharecteristic largess has started her on the path to sorting out the events of Ariel.

But if River is truly a reader and a genius, she probably picked up on that before, right?

Check out the expression on her face in "Ariel" when Simon thanks Jayne for his supposed bravery. *g* It's an almost bitter-sweet, forgiving disappointment.

Actually, her scream during the examination, the way her brain patterns start to go wild just as Jayne has started lying directly to Simon and the entire "Christmas" talk during their captivity could also be directly related to her sensing Jayne's betrayal.

My money is on nausea, possibly aided by picking up mental images from Zoe and Mal's war memories.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 9:44 AM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
But if River is truly a reader and a genius, she probably picked up on that before, right?

Probably. But since she's also a paranoid schizophrenic she may not have understood what it was she was picking up on before. Or knew and understood but wasn't sure it wasn't just some halucination.

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 10:25 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
But if River is truly a reader and a genius, she probably picked up on that before, right?

Probably. But since she's also a paranoid schizophrenic she may not have understood what it was she was picking up on before. Or knew and understood but wasn't sure it wasn't just some halucination.

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

Still, imagine Jayne bringing the crate of apples aboard.

That would have been a far stronger feeling of guilt to pick up on than during the war stories scene.

Or Mal at any moment after Jayne's betrayal.

It just seems far fetched to be to apply her expression to a psychic revelation about Jayne, when there are so many far more likely moments coming before.

The nausea was a side-effect of the medication, and it's subtly foreshadowed in that small snap-shot of an expression. Doesn't have to be more than that.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 10:47 AM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
It just seems far fetched to be to apply her expression to a psychic revelation about Jayne, when there are so many far more likely moments coming before.

But perhaps not in a context that River could make out the meaning. Consider that while to the crew of Serenity a crate of apples is a treasure of great value to River, who grew up in a wealthy household on a core planet, it's just food; no more remarkable than a packet of protein is to the rest of our BDHs. In order for her to understand the implication of guilt she needs some outside reference to the actual value involved. A reference she doesn't really get untill Wash and Zoe point it out.

Quote:
The nausea was a side-effect of the medication, and it's subtly foreshadowed in that small snap-shot of an expression. Doesn't have to be more than that.

Consider this possibility; River picks up on Jayne's betrayal and feelings of guilt which triggers the nausea that is a side effect of the drug. Or you could very well be right. I did say in my first post on the subject that I was leaning toward the nausea explanation myself.

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 11:31 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:

But perhaps not in a context that River could make out the meaning. Consider that while to the crew of Serenity a crate of apples is a treasure of great value to River, who grew up in a wealthy household on a core planet, it's just food; no more remarkable than a packet of protein is to the rest of our BDHs. In order for her to understand the implication of guilt she needs some outside reference to the actual value involved. A reference she doesn't really get untill Wash and Zoe point it out.

Weren't you already surprised by the idea of Jayne buying a crate of apples when Inara mentions it in the scene before? If we don't need it pointed out by Wash and Zoe, why should River?

River's been on the ship for a couple of weeks at the least, by then, so knowing that Jayne is not the generous type shouldn't come surprising. :)
Besides, other people would have mentioned that apples are a luxury the moment they came aboard. Not having had any fresh fruit since they've been on the ship is also a good clue for a genius.

It's not like she was beamed into that scene straight from "Ariel" or straight from her wealthy coreworld home. She's spent more time on that boat that we've had the chance to witness by watching. If she can figure out Badger in the space of 30 seconds, a couple of weeks could be decent time for learning a few basics about life on the ship, methinks.

Sorry to be so argumentative. I just felt that there are some holes in that argument. I mean no offense. :)

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 12:26 PM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Sorry to be so argumentative. I just felt that there are some holes in that argument. I mean no offense. :)

No offence detected. I still think something that is obvious to us the viewers (obvious because the story tellers have decided to make it obvious) might not be obvious to River, who hasn't seen the series and has to sort through every tiny sensory impression ("She feels everything. She can't not.") before she can even begin to start figuring out which ones are important and then figuring out what they mean in a larger context. Remember River, "Really is crazy." and may not be able to see things we (from our priviledged viewpoint) find very obvious.

But as you said just plain nausea is probably enough to explain the look. Maybe not though.

Edit: Re: Jayne's uncharacteristic generosity. As I said River may not know that apples are a luxury to the rest of the crew. You and I know because we have seen that information countless times in the series but River may not have had occasion to find out yet.

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 11:13 PM

ELOISA

I think River knows what's going on in Ariel as it's happening. Firstly, her brain scan reacts at the same time as Jayne is lying. (Never worked out what 'your toes are in the sand' means.) Secondly, my take on the Christmas speech:

"They took Christmas away" - the Feds spoilt Jayne's exciting day.
"Came downstairs for all the shiny presents" - i.e. the reward.
"Nothing left but coal" - i.e. someone else is going to get it.
"You shouldn't look in the closet, it's greedy" - he shouldn't have looked at the Wanted posters to find out how much he would get to turn them in.
"It's not in the spirit of the holiday" - it's really going to annoy Mal.

I always thought River pulling that face was a sign that that was the point she stopped 'functioning like a girl'. I'm wondering now if it's a reaction to Wash's anger and/or to the fact that if he hadn't been touched off by this scene into a row with Zoe, he wouldn't have gone off with Mal and been captured. Then again, if Zoe had been captured instead of him the crew probably wouldn't have got either of them back, as I don't see anyone but Zoe having the composure to do what she did to rescue Wash (possible exception; Book).

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