FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Discrepancies b.w Pilot and Movie

POSTED BY: PETALINE
UPDATED: Thursday, August 17, 2006 12:26
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 9958
PAGE 1 of 1

Tuesday, July 4, 2006 12:37 PM

PETALINE


Ok, maybe I'm missing something but isn't there a HUGE discrepancy between Simon's story of getting River out of the academy and what we see in the movie?

In the movie, Simon goes in there and gets her himself and takes her out completely conscious and all. They get on a ship and go.

But in Serenity (the pilot), Simon says some underground men got her out and she woke up in cryo. Even if Simon somehow sedated her and put her out and into cryo after the breakout, he said that he didn't get her out himself.

Was this an attempt by Joss to make Simon seem less of wuss? I mean Simon gets decked by someone in like every other episode but why would Joss have made this glaring plothole?

Please lemme know what y'all think about this.

"Sir, I think you have a problem with your brain being missing."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 4, 2006 12:46 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Joss had to streamline the story for a movie audience who had never heard of Firefly much less seen any of the series. Besides, Simon didn't necessarily tell Mal and crew the entire story in the pilot episode. Why would he incriminate himself by telling them of his direct involvement in the rescue when he had just met them and didn't know if they could be trusted?




wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 4, 2006 12:57 PM

DAVESHAYNE


There is a discrepancy of sorts yes. For reasons already mentioned. The currently accepted explanation is that Simon lied about the extent of his involvement in the rescue for whatever reason. Personally I don't buy it but I also don't see the difference being a big deal.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 4, 2006 1:36 PM

THEONETRUEBIX


Note also that in the series, you DO see Simon being active and daring -- as long as it involves protecting his sister. And that's precisely what's going on when he rescues her.

There's no question that initially, this entire thing was Joss outright contradicting the story told by Simon in the series. He's admitted as much. But he's also admitted to siding with the fanwank of "Simon withheld part of the story from the crew in the pilot" thereby bringing it all back into compliance and continuity.

(In other words, "Simon lied" is not merely fanwank community canon, it's official canon, at least if you consider Joss' opinion official canon.)

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 4, 2006 6:44 PM

BOBECC


It's also kind of weird how in Jaynestown Simon is pretty much a bumbling idiot with no acting or lying ability, yet in Serenity he confidently strolls into a secure alliance facility and pulls it off flawlessly.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 4, 2006 6:48 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


There's quite a bit of discussion about this in headlines discussion. Don't know why it was started there, but anyway here it is; http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=7&t=20542
It makes a certain sense, even more sense if you read the novel of the movie. But yeah, it was a bit of a discrepancy. Had to introduce the characters and story to people who hadn't watched the show!

**********************************

**********************************

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 4, 2006 7:46 PM

THEONETRUEBIX


Quote:

Originally posted by bobecc:
It's also kind of weird how in Jaynestown Simon is pretty much a bumbling idiot with no acting or lying ability, yet in Serenity he confidently strolls into a secure alliance facility and pulls it off flawlessly.



In just about any thread on this, you'll see the communal consensus on this, and it's actually right there in your comment: When dealing with Core World culture, Simon is fine. When out of that culture, he isn't.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 5, 2006 7:08 PM

ONTHEDRIFT


Quote:

Originally posted by theonetruebix:
Note also that in the series, you DO see Simon being active and daring -- as long as it involves protecting his sister. And that's precisely what's going on when he rescues her.

There's no question that initially, this entire thing was Joss outright contradicting the story told by Simon in the series. He's admitted as much. But he's also admitted to siding with the fanwank of "Simon withheld part of the story from the crew in the pilot" thereby bringing it all back into compliance and continuity.

(In other words, "Simon lied" is not merely fanwank community canon, it's official canon, at least if you consider Joss' opinion official canon.)



Sounds good, I won't question it.

And as far as Simon being "bumbling", you're exactly right theonetruebix, everything changes when River is involved. I am the definition of average, but if you with one of my siblings in such a heinous way, I would do ANYTHING. ANYTHING. I would find myself capable of much more than I ever imagined. When you're fueled by love and the pure desire to protect and heal your family, what couldn't you do. Unconditional, beyond reason love - that's why the Simon/River relationship dynamic is my favorite. It's love at the best and true meaning of the word.

And since I've already hijacked the thread somewhat, Thanks theonetruebix for all your hard work. It's inspiring and much appreciated. Thank you!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 5, 2006 8:34 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by onthedrift:

And as far as Simon being "bumbling", you're exactly right theonetruebix, everything changes when River is involved.




Not so much. Simon although is very protective of his sister, and will go to great lengths to do so (ie jumping on Dobson from above), he is still very clumsy.

The only place in which Simon has been smooth is Ariel in the hospital. A place in which he is professionally trained and would feel at home in as it is his job and he spent many years of his life at. So, duh.


The problem I find with this whole discussion is that people start with the assumption that everything is consistent and search for explinations that support this. The argument then becomes circular and thus fallacious in nature.

If one goes cronologically from the BDS to the BDM, then resolving the problems in that arise in the movie are impossible.

For example, I've read from some people here that they think Ariel is proof that Simon knew that River was psychic (something he knew in the movie from the rescue, but denied in the series in Objects in Space, the last ep).

The problem with using Ariel in this way is that the scene involved is when River was running away from the Blue Hands Men. Well Simon had two choices given that they were bacially in a hallway. Namely, run toward the really scary screaming like people were getting tortured and dieing, or the other way. Personally, I think that one doesn't have to think someone is psychic to follow them when they are running the other way. Especially, when that other person started running first.

This is simply a case of over analysis and taking things out of context.


I really don't understand why these inconsistencies are a problem for people that absolutely need to be resolved.

Simply put, Joss started the series with the characters pointed in a certain direction. FOX told him to change this from what was in the unaired pilot to something else, which was the pilot that we actually saw. Then canon was set during the series.

When Joss wrote the BDM, he decided to bring back a lot of what was tossed out (ie Mal) by FOX in the movie and rewrite history a bit. It's his prerogative. Some will like, some won't. But let's not deny it happened and its consequences. That's just delusional.

EDIT: Btw, this has been discussed to death before. Search the archives. Use google and tag on site:fireflyfans.net to only search fireflyfans.net.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, July 7, 2006 3:22 PM

PETALINE


Sorry to have caused such an uproar. I asked this question on here because I personally couldn't find an answer and I thought everyone here would be helpful. However, I just got talked down to as if I should know everything Joss Whedon has ever said or thought. Thanks so much for your help and reminding me why I never post on forums. I was new here and was looking for some help and thought this would be the place to find it. I guess I was wrong. Excuse me for being curious.

Won't happen again, sir.

"Sir, I think you have a problem with your brain being missing."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, July 7, 2006 9:26 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

This is simply a case of over analysis and taking things out of context.


I really don't understand why these inconsistencies are a problem for people that absolutely need to be resolved.





I think you are oversensitive.

The point is not to deny inconsistencies or to imply intent on Joss' part, but simply to point out how some things aren't inconsistent at all. Ariel doesn't prove anything about Simon's knowledge about River's capabilities, but neither does it contradict anything. Movie and series information make each other more complex.

No one is going overboard to create unreasonable scenarios, so why does it offend you so much that people see extra information instead of inconsistencies? There are enough real ones in terms of little plotholes in our beloved movie. No need to protect them all.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, July 21, 2006 2:28 PM

ONNAHINLI


the only things bothered me had to deal with simon he became a different character in the movie.
during the series he seemed more submissive to mals orders and seemed to comply easier during confrontation. during the movie hes immediately as demanding and more confident and even more aggresive then he was at the end of the series. not to mention he could stroll into a high security allianmce labratory play a role then woosh his sister away but when asked to play the role of a mud buyer he cant manage complete sentences???

oh the explanation of how the revears became was awesome in the movie but in bushwhacked that would just make the kid who became one just 'moody' (to put lighty)

"I dont know. If i wanted schoolin' i would've went to school"
-Jayne

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, July 27, 2006 9:04 PM

SMILEFORTHECAMERA


First of all I have to say that just because a topic has been discussed before does not make it off limits. If someone wants to ask a question they should be able to without first searching the entire site to see whether there has been any previous references and without being shut down for it. (I realise, though, that the poster may have been trying to be helpful).

Second of all there are inconsistencies between the show and the movie if you take them both at face value eg the much discussed River rescue and the relationship between Simon and Mal. These inconsistencies can be resolved through the various suggestions that have arisen eg Simon lied, but if people don’t want to accept these suggestions its their prerogative, there’s no reason why they should as there is no real basis for it in the show or movie. From the posts that I’ve read the basis for these suggestions seems to be the fan’s desire for continuity and the novels (which have practically no input from Joss).

Personally I agree with previous comments to the effect that inconsistencies arise because the movie had to be accessible to people who hadn’t watched firefly. The rescue scene in the movie, in my opinion, was be quicker, more interesting and easier to follow than it would have been if Joss had filmed Simon’s version in the pilot.

People if you want to believe that there are no continuity problems by making up or accepting rationalisations that are no found within the show or movie but by adding information and scenarios (eg Simon’s lying in the pilot) I’m happy for you, but you really should be aware of the difference between fact and opinion.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 31, 2006 11:08 AM

FELLOWTRAVELER


Huh, I just assumed that the Alliance caught River again between the end of the show and the beginning of the movie and this was a different breakout. Wrong again; I think I see a pattern developing...

What I did notice was when the OP was checking out Mal's file, it has him listed as a Cpt. in the Independents. Mal was a Sgt, right?

Seems a pretty obvious contradiction, so someone set me straight. What did I miss?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 2, 2006 10:01 AM

UNSEEN


Okay... I keep hearing about this supposed problem created about Simon's story between Firefly and Serenity and I just don't see the real contradiction.

As far as I can recall, Simon never went into any detail as to what happened other than in the pilot, and there says something to the effect of he funded the men who could help get River out in cryo and not specifically that they rescued her. It could quite easily have been the case that he went in using the things provided by whoever was aiding him (after all, why would the men want to risk themselves?). This could fit with the film and show just perfectly and seems fairly likely to have been how it could've gone. Simon could've gotten River out in what according to the book is some Alliance official ship... which is unlikely to be a long range craft.
So, Simon gets River out using things provided by the men he funded - no contradiction so far - then also in that scene mentions getting to Persephone, which would've also been part of what the men did for him (particularly if that craft *wasn't* capable of travelling between planets.)
Simon's acting discrepancy can also be explained; Before going into the Alliance facility - which he was prepared for - he also wasn't a highly wanted fugitive. At the time he was required to act again, he was both a wanted fugitive who didn't entirely want to be there anyway, and unprepared.
I don't know... I can't see the problems even comparing the series, book and movie. This theory fits and was pretty much what I assumed Simon meant anyway.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 2, 2006 11:28 AM

DONCOAT


What you said.

Simon demonstrated time and again that he could and would do anything for River's sake. He stood right up to Mal in the pilot, and jumped an Alliance agent to boot. He was ready to be burned to death for her, for goodness' sake!

It's hardly surprising that he did a better job portraying an Alliance officer (a role he surely understood well and had time to prepare for) than a mud buyer (a kind of person he'd probably never met in his life), on essentially no notice, with no connection to River's welfare at stake.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, August 3, 2006 7:07 PM

ONNAHINLI


the big one for me as i stated in another thread was that in the movie they show Mal's rank as captain in the scene the operative was researching on mal. but throughout the movie they always imply he left service as a sargent. badger refers to it as well as tracy and the alliance officer interrigating him.

"I dont know. If i wanted schoolin' i would've went to school"
-Jayne

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, August 6, 2006 5:14 AM

UNSEEN


The other little sticking point that keeps on coming up is the guy in Bushwhacked, and how he could be a Reaver if the story of the movie is taken into account. Well... why couldn't it have happened to this guy just as the episode says?Someone forced to watch unspeakable acts and indescribable horrors may well lose their mind and try to imitate the behaviour of the Reavers if that's the only place they can go to.

Though yes, the problem of Captain/Sergeant is there... I don't believe this is a continuity problem however, more likely just a mistake/assumption on the parts of whoever created that little computer sequence the Operative is watching. Working with a movie script where he's only ever referred to as Captain... and remember, these are the same people who in one shot spell his name incorrectly then it's fine in another.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, August 6, 2006 7:22 AM

DONCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Unseen:
Though yes, the problem of Captain/Sergeant is there... I don't believe this is a continuity problem however, more likely just a mistake/assumption on the parts of whoever created that little computer sequence the Operative is watching. Working with a movie script where he's only ever referred to as Captain... and remember, these are the same people who in one shot spell his name incorrectly then it's fine in another.

I think the "mistake" theory is probably correct. Whoever did the graphic knew that Mal was "Captain Malcolm Reynolds" and assumed that was his military rank too.

Of course, it's easy enough to come up with a fanwank to explain it. Based on his service at Serenity Valley, the Independent high command gave Mal a battlefield promotion (jumping over Lieutenant to Captain), so that's what was in his official record at the end of the war.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, August 6, 2006 9:01 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Instead of making things up, I decided to look at the wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Tam

Which is complete crap btw, and check out the references.

This link from the references in the wikipedia article:

http://www.serenitymovie.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=766

has an interveiw with Joss in it. Here's the exert that matters.

"""
Question: Hi Joss. I was just wondering, a bit of a discrepency I might have noticed in the series and in the film. In the series, it is implied that River was smuggled *to* Simon in that chyrogenic box, yet in this movie we've seen him rescuing her. Is that just something you had to put in the plot to make it make sense to people who have never seen the series or did I just--

JOSS: -- Man, I haven't even noticed that [laughs]. It is the one place where I broke cannon, because I started to write the movie with people we have never met, breaking the material out, and I thought "My God, this is uninvolving" and realised I had to switch it for the movie to make it Simon himself who broke her out. So. My fan wank goes out as follows, he was lying about when he said other people broke her out, and I haven't gotten why yet... Im working on it.
"""

So, there you go. Joss admitts that he broke canon introducing inconsistencies in the story line.

Check your references people!

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, August 6, 2006 9:15 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


It doesn't really bother me. It's not a stretch to think that Simon would lie about being the one to rescue River, since it would have had the crew worrying if he'd been identified and thinking about dropping him. He would have wanted to stay at least long enough to get somewhere safe and remote.

As for the changes in the characters - the movie takes place many months after the show. Book is gone. Inara is gone. Mal is in a bad, bad place. Stands to reason some of the crew are different. Especially that Simon has had to stand up to Mal once or twice if he thinks he's putting River in danger. By the time we get to the movie Mal has stopped thinking of Simon and River as part of the crew (probobly worn down by all the jobs they've had to turn down on their account and the problems that has caused), which of course would make Simon very edgy and less inclined to trust Mal.

Bottom line, I think Joss was true to the characters. And I think this is what the crew would have been like a season or two down the line. If we'd had that chance ...





NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, August 6, 2006 12:52 PM

SHINYFIREFLYK64


Quote:

Originally posted by Petaline:
Ok, maybe I'm missing something but isn't there a HUGE discrepancy between Simon's story of getting River out of the academy and what we see in the movie?

In the movie, Simon goes in there and gets her himself and takes her out completely conscious and all. They get on a ship and go.

But in Serenity (the pilot), Simon says some underground men got her out and she woke up in cryo. Even if Simon somehow sedated her and put her out and into cryo after the breakout, he said that he didn't get her out himself.

Was this an attempt by Joss to make Simon seem less of wuss? I mean Simon gets decked by someone in like every other episode but why would Joss have made this glaring plothole?

Please lemme know what y'all think about this.

"Sir, I think you have a problem with your brain being missing."



That part drives me nuts, but I thought of an explanation: Simon freezes her in cryo so he can wander through Evesdown docks without arosing suspicion, because there are Alliance guys there.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, August 7, 2006 7:30 AM

UNSEEN


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Instead of making things up, I decided to look at the wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Tam

Which is complete crap btw, and check out the references.

This link from the references in the wikipedia article:

http://www.serenitymovie.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=766

has an interveiw with Joss in it. Here's the exert that matters.

"""
Question: Hi Joss. I was just wondering, a bit of a discrepency I might have noticed in the series and in the film. In the series, it is implied that River was smuggled *to* Simon in that chyrogenic box, yet in this movie we've seen him rescuing her. Is that just something you had to put in the plot to make it make sense to people who have never seen the series or did I just--

JOSS: -- Man, I haven't even noticed that [laughs]. It is the one place where I broke cannon, because I started to write the movie with people we have never met, breaking the material out, and I thought "My God, this is uninvolving" and realised I had to switch it for the movie to make it Simon himself who broke her out. So. My fan wank goes out as follows, he was lying about when he said other people broke her out, and I haven't gotten why yet... Im working on it.
"""

So, there you go. Joss admitts that he broke canon introducing inconsistencies in the story line.

Check your references people!

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"



Actually going by that, there's a mistake in what Joss said somewhere along the line. He claims not to have realised he `broke cannon` then a second after it says he made the change deliberately to make the film more involving, which in itself is a contradiction.

Again if you watch the series and that scene where Simon gives the story, read the book *and* see Serenity, there is no contradiction. The three do back each other up. One of the reasons I read the book was to try figure this bit out, and it all adds up just fine. There seems to be a misconception that Simon specifically said the men got River out, and the whole issue seems to come from that.
As far as the wiki goes... again, I stick by what is in the pilot (and afaik the entire series and corroborated in the book) that Simon never specifically claims OR denies that he was directly involved. His telling of the story was a quick summary for the crew, which the book elaborates on how the entire escape `went down`, and everything in what he actually says in the pilot scene, and how the book details the events does explain away this `problem` for the movie.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 8, 2006 7:52 AM

AKREDHEAD


I don't know if this has been said before (color me lazy)...

But to me the most striking difference between the movie and the pilot was that...the pilot seemed more "westerny" whereas the movie sorta downplayed the western style and upped the sci-fi style.

Don't get me wrong...you still get an "Old West" sense out of the movie...but I found that the asian theme and the sci-fi theme were stronger.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 9, 2006 4:06 AM

UNSEEN


Quote:

Originally posted by akredhead:
I don't know if this has been said before (color me lazy)...

But to me the most striking difference between the movie and the pilot was that...the pilot seemed more "westerny" whereas the movie sorta downplayed the western style and upped the sci-fi style.

Don't get me wrong...you still get an "Old West" sense out of the movie...but I found that the asian theme and the sci-fi theme were stronger.




I for one certainly did feel the Asian and sci-fi themes much more in the movie. A couple of the things that jar me about the movie are the hovercraft (which felt like something of an excuse to be more `high budget appearance` rather than something that fit the show or movie themselves) and the look of the cargo bay compared to the look it had in the show.

Serenity isn't supposed to be the typical clean metallic cliche and it made it seem somewhat colder and less `interesting` or homely than the TV forerunner did. The TV set felt more real and I always found it a very interesting space. The movie cargo bay felt more "average sci-fi movie cliche" and a somewhat more boring place to be because of it.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 9, 2006 4:31 AM

ROCKETJOCK


On the question of whether Simon knew of River's psychic abilities when he denied them to the crew:
Sure, he heard what Dr. Matthias had to say on the subject, but why should he believe this little-girl-torturing nutcase about anything? I can hear his thought processes now--

My god, he actually believes she's a "reader"; I bet he believes in Reavers and haunted spaceships too. He needs to lay off the tabloid broadwaves...

But Simon knows enough about people to realize that if folk think River is a "reader", she'll be in additional danger. So he discounts the evidence of his own eyes. After all, if the experiences of "Safe" (I.E. her accurate readings of the mute girl and the village elder) didn't convince him of her abilities, then nothing would. I don't think he was lying to the crew in this instance so much as he was lying to himself.

Call him Tutankamen. He's the king of denial.

By the timeframe of "Trash", he's come to accept River's insights, although not so deeply that he'll defend the idea to others, and by the events of the BDM, he'd had the truth forced down his throat too many times to continue his self-deceipt. Simon's basically a rationalist; pile enough empirical evidence in front of him, and he'll accept it.

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:36 AM

UNSEEN


Just a random little bit from rewatching the pilot. River's line "I didn't think you'd come for me."
Kinda supports the idea that *she* thought Simon had rescued her...

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 16, 2006 12:22 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Unseen:

again, I stick by what is in the pilot




As do I, as well as with what is in the movie. I see contradiction b/c with what Simon says coupled with how he says it, makes the statement (paraphrase), "I paid people to get her out and they brought her to me."

To say the Simon has the talent to lie to the crew is also ridiculous as he is clumsy at best in any situation that we've seen him in outside of a hospital; he is very bad under pressure not medical related.

Sure he'd so anything to save/protect River, but he is always clumsy about it.


Quote:

Originally posted by Unseen:

...
(and afaik the entire series and corroborated in the book) that Simon never specifically claims OR denies that he was directly involved.




Going in such a political direction will get you no points here. Give me logic i.e. not having him directly say one way or the other doesn't give you anything to argue with. You must specify where he says one way or the other.

Also, the english language is far more than just words. It is also about how they are said, body language, etc. Simon gives every indication that he had no involvement besides funding to get River out, and again, he is a very poor anything outside of medicine.

Also, River's comment may have nothing to do with Simon actually being there getting her out, just that he in the end is who she saw, so it's a reasonable assumption to assume that he "got her out."

But then again, someone who wants no contradiction will use that comment as evidence when no evidence is there. It can go either way.


Quote:

Originally posted by Unseen:

His telling of the story was a quick summary for the crew, which the book elaborates on how the entire escape `went down`, and everything in what he actually says in the pilot scene, and how the book details the events does explain away this `problem` for the movie.




But, not the problem for the series. You can't say best out of three and have it end there. You also can't expect everyone to have gone out and read the book. I haven't nor do I plan on it; it is just an "on the side" thing.


The fact of the matter is that Joss changed several things from series to movie. A rememberence of history is probably in order here.

The way Mal is in the aired pilot is NOT how he wanted him. Go download the original unaired pilot (download link in the archives) to see the original Mal. Right in line with the Mal we see in the movie. Which Joss changed him back to b/c Universal allowed him to.

Universal also allowed a change in history to allow a simple story telling of River's escape and a simple introduction to two of the involved characters.

There is almost no Chinese influence anymore, and that we replaced with a Japanese influence. The architecture of Serenity herself changed and the grimy look that she had in the series is gone (she was actually shiny in the movie).

etc, etc, etc.

All in all, I found a lot of the stuff in the movie forced.


As an end comment, I really tired of bringing the history of how things happen up again and again, b/c people forget order and need things to be all neat and tidy; no contradictions. Even if it means stretching things beyond reason.

Joss has done it, many on this board do it and I'm tired of all the bullshit when it comes to this. I'm tired of the pissing contest when it comes to the "But I remember more/have read more about FF/S than you so I know better." i.e. Just because people have read more, does not mean they know more, nor does it mean they understand more.


Plain simple fact, Simon says one thing in the series, a different thing happens in the movie. Anything else is just fanboy-ism.

I've leaving this tiresome, pointless argument, good-day.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 16, 2006 1:20 PM

VINTERDRAKEN


I always figured he just lied in the pilot. People do that sometimes ive heard.

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 16, 2006 1:20 PM

VINTERDRAKEN


I always figured he just lied in the pilot. People do that sometimes ive heard.

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 16, 2006 1:20 PM

VINTERDRAKEN


I always figured he just lied in the pilot. People do that sometimes ive heard.

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 16, 2006 1:20 PM

VINTERDRAKEN


I always figured he just lied in the pilot. People do that sometimes ive heard.

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 16, 2006 1:20 PM

VINTERDRAKEN


I always figured he just lied in the pilot. People do that sometimes ive heard.

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 16, 2006 1:20 PM

VINTERDRAKEN


I always figured he just lied in the pilot. People do that sometimes ive heard.

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, August 17, 2006 9:14 AM

UNSEEN


Silly double postiness...

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, August 17, 2006 9:14 AM

UNSEEN


TBH, I couldn't really care how high I rate as a Browncoat. What I've said, plain and simple, is that the series the movie and book do not contradict each other. I've pointed out what was actually said in the pilot DOES NOT CONFIRM this supposed discrepancy, so anyone claiming it does is equally wrong. I also never claimed Simon lied personally... because my point again is that I don't believe he did. You also used both remarks yourself that could be taken either way... so really where does that leave things?
As for problem for the series... uh, if there isn't one in the movie... well... how can it create one in the series..? I don't particularly expect everyone to have read the book, what I did say about it is that it gives evidence and backstory that shows these contradictions pretty much aren't there.
Finally... if this argument was so pointless and such a waste of time, why bother? Why not just walk on by and leave us to it?
To think I always hear Browncoats are such friendly folks. You seem to have misunderstood what I've posted mostly. I'll leave it at that.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, August 17, 2006 11:47 AM

DONCOAT


Frankly, I don't see the need for testiness here. As I see it, both sides are right.

Yes, Joss knowingly broke canon when he had Simon rescue River in person, and did so for the sake of storytelling in the movie.

And yes, it's perfectly possible to reconcile the two stories so they fit together neatly. All it takes is one inspired half-truth -- really, a half-truth of omission -- from Simon. Whether or not that reconciliation was intended or just (as would appear) a lucky break hardly matters, does it?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, August 17, 2006 12:26 PM

SHINY


List of Serenity Bloopers, Inconsistencies with Firefly, and Shout-outs:

http://www.browncoats.com/index.php?ContentID=433ed68443f0d

---

I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Zoic studios best work on Firefly
Wed, February 14, 2024 07:12 - 1 posts
Other actors on Firefly.
Sun, January 14, 2024 14:18 - 91 posts
Firefly Honest Trailer
Tue, June 27, 2023 16:58 - 8 posts
Chronological Order of Episodes.
Sat, November 26, 2022 16:47 - 39 posts
The Unmade Episodes
Sun, June 12, 2022 14:39 - 1 posts
Episode sequence?
Wed, February 16, 2022 00:58 - 9 posts
I have lost all faith in the Oscars!
Wed, December 22, 2021 08:46 - 37 posts
Questions about Sound in Space
Mon, November 29, 2021 20:47 - 41 posts
Itinerary for Serenity during the 9 months of Firefly/Serenity.
Thu, June 20, 2019 20:39 - 21 posts
Map of the Verse discussion
Tue, June 4, 2019 20:51 - 170 posts
The Savant Crew
Wed, May 15, 2019 13:47 - 32 posts
Who Was Your Favorite Friend of Our BDH?
Wed, April 24, 2019 00:26 - 3 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL