Another Jayne question on Ariel by Siri

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Another Jayne question on Ariel

POSTED BY: SIRI
UPDATED: Saturday, December 23, 2006 19:10
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Wednesday, November 15, 2006 4:46 AM

I just watched Ariel again last night. Even tho Jayne did "call the feds" to turn in River and Simon, after he hears Simon talk about what they did to River's brain, he changes his mind and tries to get them out. At least that's the way it appeared to me. I thought so the first time I watched it, too. Now when they got caught he was ready to turn them in again so he was ready to play it in his best interests.

Sorry if this is a repeat - since I'm pretty new I might have missed the discussion - altho I scanned the threads a bit.

"You did it to me, Jayne. To me."

Siri

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Wednesday, November 15, 2006 5:23 AM

MRBEN

If you're talking about the bit I think you're talking about, it's when Jayne and Simon are talking during the scan. If that's the bit, then I don't think he does change his mind there - if he had, then all would need to do to get them out would be to go out the way they came in, rather than out the back door and into the arms of the Alliance.

mrben

"Carpe Aptenodytes"
http://www.jedimoose.org

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Wednesday, November 15, 2006 6:21 AM

SIRI

You might be right. He did try to go out the front but I thought he changed his mind bc he speeded up getting them out. I figured he went out the front bc he thought he might be able to get out bf the feds got them.

Siri

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Wednesday, November 15, 2006 6:34 AM

ZZETTA13

Hello Siri

Sorry to say this but IMO Jayne is all out for himself in the Ariel eps. Its does appear at times that he may be reconsidering his ideas about the Tams, but these feeling aren't but a flicker. Jayne is for Jayne ( my wife hates him for what he did to the Tams). He has his faults and we accept him for that. Just look at his rummaging through the Tams things when he thought that they weren't coming back in the "Safe" eps. Or his consideration in turning againts Mal in the pilot eps. He has his moments but Jayne puts quite a considerable value on coin. We all know the reallity of him becoming honorary king of Canton in Jaynestown.

Z

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Wednesday, November 15, 2006 3:24 PM

ASORTAFAIRYTALE

I did kinda notice that he seems to be regretting it when he and Simon are talking in the scan room, but then he gets sort of pissed when he reaches out to touch the hologram thing, and Simon like hits his hand. Then he seems to remember why he doesn't like the Tams and changes his mind back.

---------
Love keeps her in the air when she outta fall down, tells you she's hurting before she keels. Makes her a home.

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Thursday, December 21, 2006 4:34 PM

NEVERMORE

I think that is another example of the Whedon Redirection.

He wants you to think that Jayne is changing his mind by making it look like hes trying to usher them out the back door and away from the feds... when he delivers them into their waiting arms.

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Thursday, December 21, 2006 5:04 PM

PIRATECAT

Repeats shmepeats its all shiny. My opinion Jayne is a thug nothing more. The muscle needed. Ok ya have the crew and guests. Jayne found a home. He is crew. Mal he respects. Zoe he knows she'll put a bullet in his brain pan so their is slight fear if going to far. Zoe always glares at Jayne cause she only respects honor and keeps an eye on Jayne especially when he pics on the little man her man. Jayne was about whats best for Jayne and big pay day. In his dumb brain he figured it was win win for everyone. Big pay, big heist more big pay, and all the trouble is gone. Of course Jayne will not be suspected of a double cross. In the big damn movie he realises that this is super big trouble with no getting away alive. The first time he has felt fear. He challenges Mal. He wants to keep with the crew and ship. This time he acts for self preservation by trying to get rid of River. But when the secret is revealed and he sees all the death on Miranda he now redeems himself. Agrees with River, offers a drink from his bottle to Simon, and quotes his friend Book. Jayne now becomes a man on the same level as Sgt Malcom Reynolds of the 57th Overlanders.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Thursday, December 21, 2006 8:14 PM

ROMANCEGURU

Don’t underestimate the power of character growth. I think Jayne was always human, i.e. cares about Kaylee and Zoe, sends money home, helps rescue Mal ect… he just forgot to act accordingly by living the life of a gun for hire. By the end of the BDM he does indeed redeem himself by realizing what’s truly important, his family on Serenity.

I also think during Ariel when chaos erupts and they are captured, if he really wanted to get rid of the Tams and he wouldn’t have uncuffed them. As far as he knew, it might have been easier to make it out of there with out them in tow.

What we need's a diversion. I say Zoe gets nekkid.

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Thursday, December 21, 2006 8:38 PM

REDLAVA

I think that Jayne hurried up the timetable on the Tams because that was probably the time that he was going to meet the Feds. He had to go early because in his mind the plan was to get the Tams caught, get his reward and be on his merry in time to meet the rest of the crew without looking suspicious. When Mal asked where the Tams were he would either say that they got pinched and he barely got away, or they got split up somehow and they should have been here.

Jayne did not second guess his decision until after he got caught along with the Tams and got double-crossed. And if he didn't then then he sure as hell did when Mal had him locked in the airlock.

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Friday, December 22, 2006 4:10 AM

BAGHEERA

Quote:
Originally posted by Redlava:
I think that Jayne hurried up the timetable on the Tams because that was probably the time that he was going to meet the Feds...
Jayne did not second guess his decision until after he got caught along with the Tams and got double-crossed.

Yeah, I'm not sure WHAT Jayne had planned, if he even had a plan beyond "turn traitor and get paid". I cant be certain one way or t'other that he even intended to see Mal again after getting paid. Remember in the Pilot Jayne was offered a sum of money exceeding the value of Serenity, and I cant imagine that value has gone down any in the time the Tams have been fugitives.

I don't think he ever second guessed his choice, but I definately got the feeling he flinched when he heard River acted all barmy cuz she had been tortured by the same people he was turning her back to. It wasnt enough to affect his decision, that bullet had already been fired, but it was enough to rub salt in the wound that had opened when he knowingly made the wrong decision to turn them in.

He KNEW he was doing the wrong thing when he called the feds on them, but as he told Mal "the money was too good", which caused endless amounts of regrets to him the further he got in.

I think Jayne's character displayed the greatest degree of growth through the series, and I could see the possibility of him being the "big brother/protector" that Simon pretty much fails at, through no lack of devotion.

If anyone could have been love interests for River or Jayne, it was the other. Not because they were perfectly suited for each other, which they werent... but because they were so poorly suited for each other that they compensated for the other's failings. Granted, Jayne would have had to get over his own intimacy issues, which wasnt going to happen in the near future, but there was the possibility for a growing closer as he healed from whatever scars he had upon him.

Keep on walking preacherman.

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Friday, December 22, 2006 2:56 PM

TRAVELER

A good 1-1/2" hex wrench to the head really makes you stop and think. Jayne has a brain. It just needs exercise. It is one of the reasons I would love to see the show return. I think Jayne would grow up. He has potential. He just needs direction. Mal's airlock discussion was a good start. Jayne would have needed more of those before completely letting go of his old selfish ways. I would enjoy seeing that happen.

As for Ariel. Jayne may have had a moment when he might have changed his mind, but the moment passed and he was leading the Tams right into the trap. He only released them, during their escape, because he thought they believed he was innocent and he wanted them to contunue to think that. He did not know River was on to him.

After Mal's talk with him through the airlock door, Jayne may have decided to refrain from turning them in again. This does not mean he would go out of his way to help them. I feel Jayne still had doubts about them being on equal terms as far as being members of the crew.

Traveler

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 4:12 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by traveler:

After Mal's talk with him through the airlock door, Jayne may have decided to refrain from turning them in again. This does not mean he would go out of his way to help them. I feel Jayne still had doubts about them being on equal terms as far as being members of the crew.

Near the end of the BDM, in Mal's "They won't see this coming!" speech, when they're sitting at the kitchen table, Jayne can be seen to slide a beer bottle over to Simon. I think Joss meant us to know that, at that point, Jayne has finally accepted the Tams.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 5:49 AM

REDLAVA

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Quote:
Originally posted by traveler:

After Mal's talk with him through the airlock door, Jayne may have decided to refrain from turning them in again. This does not mean he would go out of his way to help them. I feel Jayne still had doubts about them being on equal terms as far as being members of the crew.

Near the end of the BDM, in Mal's "They won't see this coming!" speech, when they're sitting at the kitchen table, Jayne can be seen to slide a beer bottle over to Simon. I think Joss meant us to know that, at that point, Jayne has finally accepted the Tams.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

I think "accepted" is the wrong term. I don't think Jayne will ever accept the Tams in the way the rest of the crew has, even Mal. To me, the sliding of the bottle symbolized Jayne seeing the big picture, and telling Mal, Simon, and the audience that they wouldn't have to worry about a backstab somewhere in the very near future during the operation. Even he felt sickened by what the Alliance had done on Miranda and getting the word out was a bigger priority than any feud.

Just another moment of growth for Adam's character.

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 1:55 PM

TRAVELER

When I saw the movie and watched Jayne go after River to take her away, I don't feel he was going to turn her or her brother in as in Ariel.
He knows the outcome of trying that. In the movie I feel Jayne just wants to get rid of River because she is a threat to the rest of the crew and Mal is determined to protect the Tams. If Jayne accepted the Tams, as the rest of the crew does, he would not gone after River at all and excepted Mal's decision.

After they discover Miranda, Jayne could have stayed behind, he has shown in past that if there is no gain for himself, then he wants no part of any scheme. Jayne stayed with Mal and went to Miranda. There must have been some changes in Jayne during the months from the last Firefly episode and the movie. We missed a lot of interesting situations during those months that caused this change in Jayne. He even quoted Book when he passed that bottle to Simon. "Can't do something smart then do something right." Not sure if I got the quote exact, but that is the main theme. I wish we could have been apart of that growth and seen some of the adventures the crew of the Serenity went through. I am sure Jayne is not the only one who went through changes.

In Ariel, it is Jayne's actions that show he is not part of the crew. Jayne needs to learn what the term crew means to Mal and the others. Mal and Zoe, having fought a war together, have a good understanding of supporting each other. In the very first episode you see Zoe following Mal in the battle of Serenity Valley, when he takes down that flyer. Jayne does not have that sense of team player in Ariel. A wrench to the head makes it clear how Mal feels, but Jayne needs to learn through his own experiences what "crew" is.

These are my thoughts. I have said this before. I am not Joss and will not pretend to know what he had in mind. My opinion is just as valid as my knowledge of Joss is. Of course that knowledge is very little. But thank you for this thread so I may be allowed to express it.

Traveler

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 6:07 PM

BAGHEERA

Quote:
Originally posted by traveler:

These are my thoughts. I have said this before. I am not Joss and will not pretend to know what he had in mind.

one of the coolest things to me about the show is that Joss wrote a lot (most/all ?) of the possibilities open-ended, without a particular future scheme in mind.

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 7:10 PM

PIRATECAT

I saw an interview with Adam Baldwin on Vidilife.com where he talks about Jayne and the new show FF. Adam was saying that Mal is his hero. So through out the show this would be a factor. I think Jayne's idea of family is the crew without tourists. They never seem what they say they our.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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