FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

River vs Love?

POSTED BY: ORANGEHAT
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 07:16
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Saturday, January 13, 2007 3:07 PM

ORANGEHAT


So many people tend to mention something about River obtaining a love interest. Jayne has even been mentioned as a possibility! I have a couple problems with this. For starters, shes only 17 and Jayne is like ...not 17. Plus hes more of a wam-bam-thankyou-ma'm type person which is something an unstable teenager DOES NOT need.
* Heres my point (Yes I do have one).
River has suffered some major tramas in her lifetime. She even admits to not knowing if she feels like a girl. What is a girl? She sure as hell is unsure. She can't even tell what her own self is, what her own memories are, and you want to throw some love interest into the mix?! That's just cruel. Let the girl adjust for godsake! Shes not even whole yet and already shes expected to fall in love and have some wonderous relationship?! Famous line here: You can't love someone else until you love yourself. SHE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW WHO SHE IS. And from some of the things she says she seems to be a little short of loving herself. Besides, I think it would be WAY too dramatic to have yet ANOTHER person on that ship yearning for someone they have yet to obtain! There is a line...
Anyways..what to y'all think?

That nerdy hat

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Saturday, January 13, 2007 3:24 PM

DEEPGIRL187


You're right, River isn't mentally stable enough to handle a relationship. She has a hard enough time relating to people she's not in love with...

I think the ideas about forming a love interest for River are ideally for (I hope) when she's more stable (indeed, if that day ever comes). And I think the ideas for her and Jayne come from the fact that, well, it's the type of sick thing that Joss would do (Buffy and Angel anyone?). And their personalities do complement each other in a strange way, but then that's my opinion.

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Saturday, January 13, 2007 7:10 PM

MISTERSOLIDUS


Maybe its just me, but I can't really see her falling in love with anyone. As mentioned, she doesn't really seem to know herself.

Or maybe, before she was being tested on, she had a previous lover? Some crazy psychic boy. Who knows.


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Saturday, January 13, 2007 7:27 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


River, at least as we see her in the series, has no idea what a relationship really means. In the deleted scene for Our Mrs. Reynolds, she wants to marry Simon. She has no idea what that implies, she just know she loves him and thinks that's what happens and that it's all okay. Everyone was very sorry that scene had to be cut out for length, apparently. I think it gives a good look at how scewed River's views can be.

[]

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Sunday, January 14, 2007 11:16 PM

LEXAN


I actually think River has a very good idea of what a relationship is, probably more so than anyone else on the ship or in the 'verse. She encompasses an understanding of the components of a relationship far more profound and complex than any other fictional character I have ever seen.

I think that the deleted seen in which River claimed she wanted to marry Simon was a demonstration of how River is not always completely serious in what she says and infers. Most of her dialogue, though seemingly disjointed and senseless to the inattentive observer, is extremely meaningful and is able to communicate thoughts and ideas that wouldn't have necessarily been able to be expressed otherwise. However, there are a few occasions when she seems to be poking fun at her 'craziness'- the formerly mentioned deleted scene being one of them.

As for River developing a love interest... I could picture it but I don't think there's really anyone who would be able to understand River enough to become intimate with her...she's way too diverse and multifaceted.

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Sunday, January 14, 2007 11:21 PM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


I'd like to see River in a relationship sometime. Partially for the crazy but also because of the questions it would bring up. Is River able to make choices for herself? At what point should friends and family step in? How crazy is too crazy to decide who you should date or even if you should date.

I'd hate to be the guy who cheats on her though. Try telling a psychic killer woman that you were thinking of her the whole time.




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Monday, January 15, 2007 12:20 AM

STEAMER


I've thought a lot on this, too. It's one reason why I'm disappointed that Summer can't come to Farpoint - I wanted to ask her what she thinks of this. I for one am militantly anti-J/R, and if anyone tried to get pro-J/R with me there would be a list of reasons as long as my leg why Jayne hates River's guts. But anyway. Don't forget: "She feels everything - she can't not." IMO, that's not just limited to negative emotions like fear or worry or nervousness, and that's part of the reason for that CSI silliness in the deleted scene. (CSI here having the meaning of 'crazy space incest' for you non-LJers. )

I think it's entirely possible for River to find a lover post-BDM. Pre-BDM I couldn't see it happening, what with her crazy times. Post-BDM, though....it's a big 'verse. There's got to be somebody out there who can love her without being afraid of her. I think all it'll take is somebody who understands what she's been through; not necessarily another Academy victim, but somebody who can see past what's been done to her and love her in spite of it. As Zoe profoundly tells her in a post-BDM fanfic I've got on the boards: "It's only once in a lifetime you find somebody who'll take you as you are."

And in fact, I think that's part of River's problem. Simon is the only one in her life right now who does unconditionally love her despite what's happened. If someone else can learn to love her the way she is, I think her healing process will go to full burn.



Of 'interesting'
New meaning is nigh
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We're all gonna die!"
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Monday, January 15, 2007 12:23 AM

OLDMANSPLITFOOT


Heh, I think we'd all like to see River in a relationship sometime, people on both sides of the fence. Because that would implie that we'd freaking see more of River, as in more episodes or movies!

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Monday, January 15, 2007 9:14 AM

ORANGEHAT


Personally I like River as an entity, I like her 'crazy' moments and her crude sometimes sadistic sense of everything she encounters. I don't want her character to change she pulls off the troubled screwed up chick quite well and in order for her to have a relationshipt that not only means she would have to be less screwed up it would also mean someone would have to understand her. River is just as much as a concept as she is a person and if someone "got" her it would take the fun out of everything she does/says. That would make her much to simple to belong on such a ship.
I say NO relationships of River.

That nerdy hat

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Monday, January 15, 2007 9:30 AM

SHINYED


River should take companion training, but without the actual sex stuff, and Inara could be her mentor.

She is intelligent and graceful...the companion training would help her understand adult relationships, wisdom, love, marraige, tea ceremonies, poetry.... and then later... sex.

No sex for River until she's at least 22....she needs 4-5 years of learning the ropes about being a human being in that 'verse and learning things necessary to survive first.

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Monday, January 15, 2007 10:12 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Lexan:
I actually think River has a very good idea of what a relationship is, probably more so than anyone else on the ship or in the 'verse. She encompasses an understanding of the components of a relationship far more profound and complex than any other fictional character I have ever seen.



I totally disagree! How could she have any idea? When has River had a chance to interact with people on a human level, to be part of the every day ins and outs of an adult relationship?

Before going to the Academy, she did have the love of her brother and her parents (in their own way). But, given that she was scary-smart and way beyond her peers, she probably went to some high-priced super advanced school - or maybe she was even tutored or home schooled. I'd lay money that being social wasn't her top priority; she was eager to go away for school right? And I very much doubt she was going out for dinner and a movie with any of the boys at the Academy.

So, when she gets to Serenity, she still has the emotion maturity of a (home-schoooled-ish??) 14 year old. And her understanding of relationships probably wasn't helped by undergoing 3 years of torture!

IMHO, a lot of fic writers make the mistake of assuming that because River can read minds, she's some kind of super-psychologist and understands everyone's motivations. I just can't see this. First, she has no context in which to place the things she sees (above argument). Second - she's so scattered! It's not like everything she "reads" is neatly laid out for her to peruse at her leisure. She's got her Miranda madness and her own pain making a mess of her mind. Not to mention the little bits of her brain that got cut out.

She does figure Early out, but he's actually quite similar to her in some ways. (Joss talks about that in the OiS commentary) I think it's a statement Joss intentionally made - that she understands Early very easily but she earns her spot on the crew because she's not bad on the inside like Jubal is.

Another tidbit - in the deleted scenes of the BDM, Joss talks about how he wants to show that she's not just haunted by memories - she is actually crazy.

Yeah, so I don't think she was just playing or being ironic in that CSI scene with Simon. She really is that disconnected.

Okay, enough ranting. Except to say that I'm working on River's approach to romance in the fic I'm working on now. It's a tough thing to handle, but I'm having fun with it. Um - in my usual dark and twisted way.

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Monday, January 15, 2007 2:12 PM

ORANGEHAT


I agree with what you said there! You basically hit everything on the nose!!!

That nerdy hat

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Monday, January 15, 2007 3:23 PM

ODDSBODSKINS


h'mm, interesting topic, but i think it might be wrong to assume that you have to be perfectly sane/rational/functioning/well-adapted to get some benefit, pleasure and enjoyment from a relationship. River at the end of the BDM had regained alot of control over herself, and some insight into herself, and it might just be the case that getting involved in that manner of human interaction could be exactly what she needs in order to make sense of who she is and her role in the world. We find out about relationships by having them, the disasters, the great successes, the middling ones, the stable comforting ones, perhaps, in spite of some emotional immaturity (which i think is simplistic, she combine's immaturity with almost freakish insight throughout both the BDS and the BDM) and i don't think she'll have any way to fill in the gaps in that, to make sense of what insight she gleams and to place what she knows in context, without going through the process of relationships.

as for 'wishing it on her' i'm not of that frame of mind, i'm working hard on not coming up with my own picture for what way the characters should go, so that if the story gets continued i won't come into it with *too* many preconceptions. that's the hope, anyways xD

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Ah! What is not a dream by day
To him who's eyes are cast
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Turned back upon the past.

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Monday, January 15, 2007 3:36 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Gosh, figuring out if River could function in a relationship sure would be easier if we'd had more than 14 episodes and a movie, don't'cha think?


Rules on voting here: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=22892

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Monday, January 15, 2007 8:27 PM

KEVINGREY


First of all, I’m not sure I agree with the “If you can’t love yourself, you can’t love anyone else,” as a statement against the relationship idea.

In my experience, children begin by learning love from their experience of it. From their parents, siblings, other family, etc.

If someone loves you, you can learn what love is for yourself and learn to love yourself, as well.

So, in this way, it could be almost therapeutic for River to be in a relationship. Though, I would agree, Jayne would not be my first choice in this.

In any case, generally speaking, conflict creates story. In addition, life usually does not wait for someone to be prepared before throwing something at them.

In both of these ideas, the concept of a River Relationship seems almost perfect. Simon would have much to be conflicted about in his desire to protect River, vs. the potential of holding her back from learning and growing. River herself would be in conflict and unsure of how to proceed, potentially. And this is just in regards to those two characters.

It could throw a potential monkey wrench into everything. Which, is what stories are generally crafted upon. The conflict/resolution of conflict is what often makes them interesting and the very fact that so many seem to be dead set against the idea, makes it almost to hard to resist in my mind.

Given what I know of Joss, he probably feels much the same way.

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 12:46 AM

LEXAN


MAL4PREZ-

I didn't really say that River would be able to function well in a relationship due to her infinite understanding. I was more implying that because River has an extremely high analytical and intuitive intelligence, she is able to understand what relationships in general (and certain relationships) are about. However, I feel this understanding brings about a confusion to River, this resulting in her not being able to deal with her thoughts. Hence, she understands them, she doesn't 'comprehend' them. River is constantly (but not purposefully) over-analysing all the people, emotions, thoughts and ideas she ‘senses’ and as a result suffers from a ‘scattered’ mind.

I also think River, in contrast to her high analytical intelligence, may have a low social intelligence (which means a romantic relationship wouldn't bode well for her...).
Then again, there's the moment in 'Shindig' when she completely mimics Badger's personality and really gets into the inner workings of his mind. This really is proof that she is, in fact, a 'super-psychologist and understands everyone's motivations'...which she does.

But yeah... I think her considerably superior analytical intelligence severely impairs her social intelligence.

Also, I can see why people think that something might be going on with Jayne... it's just the age difference that makes the idea less plausible.

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 5:32 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Lexan:
I didn't really say that River would be able to function well in a relationship due to her infinite understanding. I was more implying that because River has an extremely high analytical and intuitive intelligence, she is able to understand what relationships in general (and certain relationships) are about.



Now see, I myself have a pretty high level of analytical and intuitive intelligence, and that's meaned squat as far as relationships. Less than squat. I do my best when I shut my brain off. Seriously! Logic skills and life skills are two completely different things. (as you pretty much say in your post!)

Quote:

River is constantly (but not purposefully) over-analysing all the people, emotions, thoughts and ideas she ‘senses’ and as a result suffers from a ‘scattered’ mind.


I agree - but doesn't this disagree with what you say above? Also, I must note that her scattered mind is largely from actual physical damage to her brain, and the trauma of being basically imprisoned and tortured, not just from hearing voices in her mind from the people presently in her life.


Quote:

Then again, there's the moment in 'Shindig' when she completely mimics Badger's personality and really gets into the inner workings of his mind. This really is proof that she is, in fact, a 'super-psychologist and understands everyone's motivations'...which she does.

Not so much, I say. She apes his accent and sees a few of his memories, and makes fun of him. He just happens to go for that (IMO - largely because it was such a good joke on Badger, to have him like getting insulted by a pretty girl) If she was super-psych she wouldn't have come out there and endangered the crew! And knifed Jayne, and gotten all at odds with the Shepherd over his bible, etc...

Anyway, what I was going for was more a dig at the fic writers who get the couple of their choice together by having River say that one perfect sentence. Suddenly it all comes clear for our starcrossed lovers. **cue chorus and harps, much sex ensues** That's just silly. River gets lots of information about the people around her, but she has no way to apply it. Maybe, eventually, she will. But not during the series or right after the movie.

I do agree with other posters that a relationship would be good for River. Absolutely! She needs to learn, and it's about time for her to start living like a real person. But I absolutely cannot see her jumping into a mature, adult relationship with ease. It's going to be a struggle. As for who she'd be with? Hard, hard call there. I can't see it happening with any of the crew, not until we got to, say, seasons 6 and 7 and she's grown up a lot. (who's bitter? Not me. )

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I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 3:20 PM

LEXAN


I agree with you about how having a good analytical intelligence does mean anything when it comes to relationships and life skills (intuitive intelligence would probably help though...). But that wasn't what I said. I was saying that, because she can understand what a relationship is on an analytical level, it is unfair to say she has no idea what a relationship is and what it's about (this is why I never took that deleted scene seriously…). Though, I can also say that River might have difficulty understanding it on a human level, because sometimes it seems as if River can't quite come to terms with the fact that she is a human being herself (this was demonstrated in 'Serenity' when Mal said that if River thought she wasn't a human being, actual and whole, she'd best shoot and she cocked the gun).

I think that the only single entity in the 'verse that River doesn't have an intricate understanding of (I still think she has an intricate understanding of what a relationship is) is herself. She's forced to spend so much time on what surrounds her, she hardly ever is able to try to figure herself out. If the series had continued, River probably would have developed a more distinguished personality, outside her expected psychotic behaviour. This behaviour and the dialogue that came with it was really only River’s perception and a reflection of everyone and everything else she saw. A relationship would mean she'd be able to explore and understand herself more and would lead to some interesting development for the character...

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 4:32 PM

ORANGEHAT


Wow I have so many things to comment about.
First off I LOVE that scene in Serenity when River cocks the gun and puts it against her head, God that made me love her all over again!
Secondly River does have a personality, shes a bit of a brat (as stated by Simon many times) people can't get past the parts where shes crazy to really see the times when shes not. She reminds me of a good friend of mine actually, kinda lost and wondering where to go and whats worth her time. She knows everything yet lacks the ability to really apply it (thats not stated right..) so she tends to just go off with really deep emotional or sometimes blunt or morbid things without really reconizing the effect they could have on anyone she would rather watch their reactions to the things she says. Its almost like she has this hidden "motive" behind everything she says like a curiosity about the people shes talking to (and you have to admit if you had a reason to be crazy and have people would except you for it, wouldn't you take advantage of that from time to time? ...Perhaps its just me, and does that make me a bad person.....NEVER THE LESS) River states it best herself. She understands but she does not comprehend.
Another thing! I don't know what kind of relationships ya'll have experienced but relaxing ain't exactly how I'd discribe them. Sure it would be a learning experience but I don't think it would be meditating or horribly healing for the soul. That's what bubble baths are for. You got the rubber ducky...things just can't go wrong. I'm also kinda against relationships in general, why does every character have to HAVE someone out there for them. We just get to all the juicy tidbits about their lives and BAM love side swipes us and now its no longer about who that character is its about will so and so sleep with so and so?!!!!!?!?!?!? Sexual tension is okay but I find its used on sooooooo many shows (Greys Anatomy anyone?) And River as an 'entity' is pretty freakin interesting enough without the whole yearning love thing goin on. I think it might take away from the character building I crave.

That nerdy hat

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 4:54 PM

LEXAN


I agree that River does have a personality... and a very interesting personality at that. I just don't think this personality is being communicated through River’s own experiences and inclinations. Her personality sort of forces its way through what she says and implies, which is mostly about other people and issues that have nothing to do with her ( apart from the fact she knows about them). I would have liked to see her explain and understand herself more. River’s likes, dislikes, leanings, opinions and belief were always somewhat indistinct. She never once (unless I’m wrong?) said a sentence that started with ‘I feel’ or ‘I believe’ which addressed particular subject matters…

About River’s tricking Badger in Shindig… she wasn’t endangering the crew at all. You’ll notice that, at the very moment Jayne says ‘What we need is a diversion’ River appears instantaneously. So I think she was really trying to do them a favour…

When she slashed Jayne with the knife in Ariel, I believe it was because she wanted to both communicate to the crew about blue sun (which for some reason she can’t coherently) and indicate what Jayne was planning on doing (assuming Jayne was already thinking of selling Simon and River to the feds)…

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Wednesday, January 17, 2007 12:26 PM

ORANGEHAT


Perhaps shes so jumbled by what everyone else around her feels or believes she doesn't know what her own feelings on the matter are.

That nerdy hat

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:22 AM

INDIGOSTARBLASTER


It seems to me that River is not yet mature enough (for all the reasons people have stated) to fall in love. Post-BDM, however, I think she is just mature enough to... have a crush.

She's heading towards normal, right? She's starting to feel like maybe she can try to be a real person, right? And she has some safety and a home? So the next logical thing, developmentally speaking, is for her to do the (totally unconscious) practice-falling-in-love thing of having a crush on someone.

My bet is it would have been Wash (I'm assuming she's hetero based on nothing but current stats on sexual orientation, by the way. It's not like she's indicated it one way or another by behaviour). As things stand, I think she would develop a crush on Mal, and he would be kinda horrified.



Just my two cents,

Indigo S.

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Monday, January 29, 2007 4:52 PM

BROWNCOATSANDINISTA


That would be an interesting dynamic. The Captain would probably be horrified at the thought of her being interested in him in that way. It may also push Simon and the Captain's relationship over the edge to great dramatic effect. And of course this would lead to her anger at both parties over their petty squabling over her. Imagine the looks of confusion and righteous - albeit odd - indignation on Simon and Mal's respective faces. Of course, then we have to factor in the rest of the Crew's reactions. Would Zoe pull another Our Mrs. Reynolds? What would happen between Mal and Inara? And Simon and Kaylee's relationship? The stress and hilarity would be incredible.

"I'm not going to say Serenity is the greatest SciFi movie ever; oh wait yes I am." - Orson Scott Card

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Tuesday, January 30, 2007 7:56 AM

INDIGOSTARBLASTER


I think Inara and Zoe would both think it's kind of sweet. They wouldn't encourage it, by any means, but they'd also know that River would outgrow it soon. And Kaylee would take the stance of many a good girlfriend -- "Not my type, but hey, fantasizing never hurt anyone, right?"

I agree with you about the Mal-Simon dynamic. Simon would demand that Mal do something to put an end to it, and Mal's response would be, "Put an end to what?! Nothing's happening, and in any case I did _not_ do anything to make this nothing happen..."

And I could just see those two awkwardly trying to arrange for River to meet some boys... suitable boys... her own age. "I hear they're having some kind of a harvest dance near the main spaceport on Whitefall..."

Indigo S.

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 10:13 AM

ORANGEHAT


That would be an interesting development. I agree with the humour and other "problems" that would insue if she developed a crush on the cap'in. I (being in a very anti-love mood especially with valentines day approaching) would rather River stay single. Everyone in the ship has a some kinda craving to be with someone and I'd appreiciate the idea of someone who realizes they don't need another person to be complete. ~Going back to the Mal thing it would be HILARIOUS if she realizes she has the crush and has no idea what to do (being smart and but stupid at the same time which could also tie in with her age) and knowing it isn't really something the captain would be looking for (what with his hate of ship board couplings) and aware of what hes thinking. Heh would she become a preditor? Praying on Mal when she knew he was weak? That would be a new spin on the idea of River being semi-helpless.

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Thursday, February 1, 2007 5:13 AM

INDIGOSTARBLASTER


I don't think River would be mean enough to do that to Mal if she had an actual crush on him but could also feel exactly how much he liked her but not in that way. I think she'd just suffer through it.

("It's a perfectly normal response for the young female of the species to be aware of the attractions of the alpha male. It would also be completely inappropriate for the alpha male to respond, given the kinship structure that has been adopted for shipboard relationships. It hurts.")

Hmm.

It does occur to me, though, that River would get some glee out of flirting with Jayne, as long as it was a matter of getting a biological rise (as it were) out of him, without actually hurting his feelings in any way. Plus, it would drive Simon crazy (even though he would know there was nothing in it), and I think she'd enjoy that, too.

Indigo S.

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Friday, February 2, 2007 2:27 AM

LEXAN


I don't think River would ever develop a crush on Mal. He's too much of a father to her. Remember in 'Safe' when she said to Simon 'Daddy will come and take us home'. It was quite obvious she wasn't refering to her biological father, but Mal, who of course 'comes and takes them home'. This is indicative of the fact that River sort of sees Mal as her father.

I could imagine her having a crush on Jayne, far more than Mal. That would be way more hilarious and fitting to the character.

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Friday, February 2, 2007 7:20 AM

INDIGOSTARBLASTER


Well, we're talking emotional response. There's that deleted scene from "Our Mrs. Reynolds" where she talks about marrying Simon, so I'm not sure she'd actually key in, emotionally, that one just doesn't have crushes on family.

The idea of her having a crush on Jayne, though, is intriguing. My first thought was that he's way too stupid and crude for her... but she can see into him in a way that most girls (and for that matter the audience) can't. So maybe she would see and be attracted to his straightforwardness, his work ethic, his respect for women, maybe even his intelligence (he isn't book smart, but there are other kinds. And it's not like River could hope to find her intellectual equal any time soon anyway).

He's too old for her, romantically speaking, but of course that's part of the point about crushes -- they are often inappropriate. And it would be funny to see him juggling that -- on the one hand, she seems to be willing, and she's pretty cute... on the other hand, she's crazy and just a kid... but getting older every day...

Actually, come to think of it, I would _love_ to see how he would handle the situation. I don't know whether he'd mess it up completely or impress the hell out of everyone. But it would be a great arc.

Indigo S.

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Friday, February 2, 2007 8:12 AM

MAL4PREZ


OK, I can't stop myself anymore. I know it's lame to chat up my own fic, especially since I won't be ready to post it for a while, but I've played out these situations with River and her crushes. And I'm just saying, Indigo - it was fun as hell to write!

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Friday, February 2, 2007 9:06 AM

KALLYN


I think that river would be elegable for a relationship, but only under circumstances that would call for it. There would need to someone who could love her unconditionally. Like Simon. But not Simon. It would be a very difficult thing to pull off, and keep true to her character, without making her character ark only about her relationship. Frankly I think that Joss would be the only one who could properly pull it off.

As for the relationship with Jayne, I resent the idea. It would be interesting to see the quirks, but it is just worong on so many levels. (as previously stated, it would be quite the experiance for her, to have a relationship, and Jayne has anything but respect for Woman. Wouldn't work.)

With Mal, I dont think it would work for a few resons. a) Mal is far too old. b) He is too much her father.

However, Joss can accomplish almost anthing in his writing. I would have been (and hope to be) intrigued by what he will do with her character.

My thoughts anyways.

-Kall ::everyone dies alone...::

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Friday, February 2, 2007 4:00 PM

LEXAN


If the series had continued, the only way I could see an actual Jayne/River relationship (not just as a River crush) happening would be if Joss sort of hinted at it (in an obvious fashion) through many seasons and then in the final season when both characters had developed (who knows how) finally acted on the pairing. I think that would be a very interesting and suitable way to pair the two characters. It would also mean River would be older and perhaps more learned in how to act like a human.

I think the two characters have a chemistry but apart from what I said above, I can't imagine them getting together in a way which wouldn’t resemble fanfiction.

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Monday, February 5, 2007 5:39 AM

INDIGOSTARBLASTER


Mal4prez, I'd be interested to see your fanfic when you post it. How do these things usually get announced? (I don't regularly view the Blue Sun Room, 'cause then I'd really never get any work done.)

Kallyn (sorry if I spelled that wrong -- I'm typing from memory), I agree that the Jayne/River pairing almost certainly wouldn't work (my thought about "interesting to see" was basically about how well or badly Jayne would put a stop to it), but I have to say that I think Jayne does respect women. He's crude about sexual jokes and the like, but he clearly
-respects his mother (by wearing her hat with pride);
-respects Zoe (by following orders with no backtalk);
-respects Kaylee (teasing about her crushes aside, he is never patronizing or doubting of her judgment or abilities);
-respects Inara (never says anything mean about her profession);
-respects the Heart of Gold whores (he's crude about wanting to get "sexed up", but he also interacts with them in a gentle, wholeheartedly fun way. He even braids his bedmate's hair).

Maybe not the ideal mate for River for a whole host of reasons, but lack of respect for her as a woman wouldn't be one of them. In my view, anyway.



Cheers,

Indigo S.

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Monday, February 5, 2007 6:38 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by IndigoStarblaster:
Mal4prez, I'd be interested to see your fanfic when you post it. How do these things usually get announced? (I don't regularly view the Blue Sun Room, 'cause then I'd really never get any work done.)



I'll put up a blog. You can check my hompage thingy to see when BackStories starts appearing... it'll be sometime in March or April, I think. Also, it's multiple chapters (I'm at 20 now) so you'll see it showing up on the front page sooner or later!

I may just be unabashedly self-promoting and put up a note on one of these threads too. Really, I've been thinking about River and her romantic possibilities for months, and now there's two threads about it! It's ironic - and very frustrating that I'm not ready to post my fic yet!

BTW, I totally agree on your take on Jayne and women. Part of the fun with him is how he's such a bad guy, but also just a little bit of a pussycat.


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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 5:10 PM

GOCRO


Um Isn't River highly intuitive/psychic meaning that If someone else had a crush or was in love with her she would know about it. So considering that she only has permanentish exposure to the crew of Serenity and that they all think of her in a platonic way due to reasons of being married, or into someone else, or being her brother. So I'm thinking between all the adventuring and her scarred mind, that a relationship hasn't really entered into her thoughts in a serious way.

Sir we have Fox HQ in our line of sight.
Excellent! send up the co-ordinates to our angels.
BOOM!

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Tuesday, February 20, 2007 7:49 AM

PSYCKOSAMA


Rivers unique nature does give me some strange ideas of how a relationship would work with her. First, you have the fact that she feels everything which among other things I think would make her own feelings of love and affection hit her with double force because she can't easily focus on other things... so if she got even a crush on someone it would have an almost obsessive intensity.

Second, I think River and sex would be a very very odd combination because of her psionic ability. Objects in Space shows us that two people lost in passion can mess up her head. Its also implied that proximity does affect how strongly she picks up on people. Now just think how strong she'd detect the sensations and emotions of someone making out with, making love to, her, with all of that passion being aimed directly at her. She would feel every one of their emotions, every one of their sexual fantasies, likely every one of their physical sensations... It could make any intimate sexual contact almost overwhelming as the sensory overload would be massive. On the other side, it could very well make her VERY easy to please... ;p

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Friday, March 2, 2007 8:28 PM

BROWNCOATSANDINISTA


If she could see all of a partner's sexual fantasies, and came upon one she didn't like, would she ever be the same to that person again? If you saw in someone's head that they wanted you in a fashion you found disgusting, would you be able to sit and eat at dinner with them? ((Assuming, as she's usually sequestered on Serenity, it would be someone on said ship semi to totally longterm.)) And if she can kill you with her brain, with all of the emotions rushing through her, would she do just that? Honestly, if she wasn't joking in Ariel, then I'm surprised at her control thus far. Of course I hope we'll get to see more to answer all of our questions in a so-satisfying-only-Joss-could-have-written-it-and-the-BDMs-acted-it sort of way. Imagine, if he ever feels the need to kill - say Jayne - he could have this happen and she, in a moment of understandable lack of control, were to kill him. Or maybe this would be his way of telling us that River can infact kill you with her brain.

"I'm not going to say Serenity is the greatest SciFi movie ever; oh wait yes I am." - Orson Scott Card

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Friday, March 2, 2007 11:46 PM

PSYCKOSAMA


You think she doesn't already know everyone's dirty little secrets? Personally I think she very well might know more about the crew than the crew does...

As for "I can kill you with my Brain"... I think she was just being a brat and yanking his chain because he honestly had it comin'...

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Saturday, March 3, 2007 4:38 AM

BLACKBEANIE


I don't think anyone currently on the ship is a good match, mostly due to age. But there are other fish in the sea. (Or is that birds in the sky in this case?)
I have a theory that River has been so damaged/traumatised, that she feels she is incapable of (romantic) love. And because of her abilities and past, she believes no one will love her back. Perhaps the Blue Hands made her think this or she figured it by herself.
Who would want to be around someone who knows their every thought? The crew might be used to it, but for someone who is new, it can be rather overwhelming and scare them off.

I'm actually working on a fic that further explores this theory.

The Crow: Serenity
Coming March 2007

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Saturday, March 3, 2007 5:48 AM

NBZ


I just think she has bigger issues to deal with.

Normal teenage angst come a definite secodn to having your brain cut open, being on the run and hearing everyones thoughts.

Not saying she will not come across it, but she will probably not have had the time or sanity to theorise it in such ways.

If you take her surroundings as a cue to her future development, she is around Kaylee, Inara and Zoe.

Zoe is monogamous, but that is because she is married.

Kaylee and Inara on the other hand...

Let's just say she may not look for some deep meaning.

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Saturday, March 3, 2007 6:01 PM

ORANGEHAT


~Let's just say she may not look for some deep meaning.~

This of course is under the impression that River does not have her own predisposed ideas about love or intimacy. I like the above discussions involving River being too damaged for love. Thats an interesting concept and I look forward to the fanfic.





That nerdy hat

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Tuesday, March 20, 2007 9:23 PM

BAGHEERA


Quote:

Originally posted by OrangeHat:
I like the above discussions involving River being too damaged for love. Thats an interesting concept and I look forward to the fanfic.



yeah, i found the concept enlightening as well.

to me, it seems that River hasnt been allowed to mature socially since the time she entereed the academy... which kinda feels like something ripped out of an anime... the child trapped in a woman's body.

i'm not really so sure about her being damaged from maturing socially... but i'd have to agree that her added abilities would take a lot of love and understanding, etc...etc...

and oddly enough... all the chats about Jayne basically showing a respect for women that he doesnt show to others makes him an ideal candidate to care for River.

maybe the only barrier to that is that he hasnt really recognized that River's childlike dependance on Mal and the crew for her wellbeing isnt solely because of her, but more in the way that she was raped by the alliance. Jayne was being shown the way to that illumination, especially in Ariel, but he still had a ways to go... and if he reached that point, he may have been a solid love interest for River.

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Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:31 PM

DINKY


I think someone coming onto the ship that makes her some what sane and stable could cause some kind of love strikenness in her.

I don't mean a doctor or anything, just someone who knows how to talk to her, someone who kinda fixes her chemistry just through their relationship (beginning as acquaintances). Meh, just an idea.

"Th3re !s n0 spo0Ne." -The Matricks

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Wednesday, March 21, 2007 10:38 AM

ORANGEHAT


Today I am a pirate.

I'm thinking we need like an Anthony Green character, someone who's beautiful, capable of eargasms and is on a little tooooo much coc. :P Basically the Early strange spontanious person that the ship is lacking. I mean the man licked the pole and I'm a tad embarrassed to say that when my sister saw that she basically yelled OMG he licks things JUST LIKE YOU... hang my head, whatever, I think if anyone is added to the ship they have to have that wacky deep down serious contemplating personality that is so hard to come by but so amazing once its found. Not that River would necessarily fall for said person, that was basically what I pictured when you mentioned a new ship mate. Though a crazy fun play mate might be what she needs. Everyone on the ship talks AROUND River, never really to her about things that should be concerning her. I think she needs a pal to conspire with. If not more, but I'm still standing by the SINGLE RIVER IDEA I have mentioned previously....soo whatever I just said can be vetoed :P

That nerdy hat

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Sunday, April 15, 2007 5:41 AM

CAVALIER


Well, right now, Jayne is the only unattached male on the ship.

That said, I feel sympathy for any guy who fell out with River.

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Saturday, April 21, 2007 1:54 AM

BLINDOUTLAW


I think had the show gone on *reflective pause* River would of experinced love or even something along those lines, and i think it would be both tragic and pretty damn funny .

Cause lets face it shes got that thing cut out of her brain so she can't really hide it, plus she is crazy after all with a protective brother and gunslinging crew. So yeah i can see Joss doing another "Our Mrs. Reynolds" moment with River and some love interest.

River will do something crazy, Simon will be over-protective, Jayne will shoot something and that poor boy will be there thinking "Oh my god what am I into?"

And laughs go all round

----------------
That was when i found out my pants were on fire, and that's my Courageous story.

- Jimmy the Blindoutlaw

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 2:45 PM

CRUITHNE3753


Quote:

Originally posted by Cavalier:
I feel sympathy for any guy who fell out with River.



Sort of My Super Ex-Girlfriend meets Carrie...

(Yeah, I know River doesn't actually have telekinetic powers, but it's just for the image...)

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 2:47 PM

CRUITHNE3753


Jayne/River getting together?

Serenity II as a wacky screwball "rom-com"?

No! NO!! NO!!!

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Saturday, July 7, 2007 3:52 AM

NCBROWNCOAT


I have a daughter with Asparger's Syndrome (high end autistm with normal to high intelligence that mainly manifests itself as low social skills) so I may have a small bit of insight into River.

I think that River, feeling everything, would have lots of problems once she's sane enough for the hormones to kick in. First. she'd be incapable of forming a traditional relationship for a long, long time. She's basically an infant in the relationship department.

More than likely she'd develop a very bad crush on Mal, the daddy figure, on Serenity. What girl, in her younger years hasn't practiced her 'wiles' on her dad, but with River would most likely mistake these emotions for real love.

Of course, hilarity and lots of angst would ensue. Mal would be clueless for a long while, then horrified, then of course come to blows with Simon.

Like others suggested, then Simon and Mal would try to introduce River to appropriate boys, with very limited success. Zoe and especially Inara, would try to teach her about relationships, responsible sexuality etc. Of course, River would take everything literally and have lots of problems.

I admit that for a long time I cringed at the thought of River paired with Jayne, but I've come around on the subject. The age factor is moot. It's the relationship, not the ages of the participants that matter.

River might find that the older Jayne is a lot more stable and intelligent than most of us think and that's what River needs. Not some hormone driven teenager.

Jayne is uncomplicated and straight forward in the emotion department. He is also very protective and I suspect family oriented deep down inside and capable of deep emotions as his character develops.

It couldn't be a wacky 'rom con' but a relationship with lots of angst. some hilarity and learning on both sides.





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Saturday, July 7, 2007 11:00 AM

ROMANCEGURU


Quote:

I admit that for a long time I cringed at the thought of River paired with Jayne, but I've come around on the subject. The age factor is moot. It's the relationship, not the ages of the participants that matter.

River might find that the older Jayne is a lot more stable and intelligent than most of us think and that's what River needs. Not some hormone driven teenager.

Jayne is uncomplicated and straight forward in the emotion department. He is also very protective and I suspect family oriented deep down inside and capable of deep emotions as his character develops.

It couldn't be a wacky 'rom con' but a relationship with lots of angst, some hilarity and learning on both sides.



Very well put!

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Saturday, July 7, 2007 11:44 AM

NBZ


Even if we forgett River for a moment, I still cannot see Rayne. She being crazy and all that, we are all guessing to some extent what she would or would not do. (Even though I see no basis whatsoever for Rayne. Ever. I do not read it. I will try to avoid reading any material written by any author that has written any. They think different from me.)

The only reasons I can see River going for Jayne is the wrong one. She is on a hormonal rush, or wants to "tame the monster". Or rather the author wants to tame Jayne.

You know... they are the only one able to get someone to change... a major part of most romantic stories and notions. This is Mary Sueing the story.

But even then, why would Jayne go for such a thing? While I do not think he hates her in any way (he just thinks she is a liability), there is nothing to form any bond.

I see no reason for him to go heads over heals for her. (Nor do I think such a play would occur between ANY character in Firefly. It's not that type of 'verse. Closer to "real life".)

Jayne is not as simple as people make him out to be. That is simply bad characterisation.

also, Jayne IS already fully developed. He is not some teenager who will radically change with what life throws at him. He has been through that.

He has gone through a lot of the change that he would because of life. there will be more, but nothing drastic. He actually enjoys violence. That is not a side that is likely to change soon.

I am sorry if I come across as rather rude, but.. well... there is no justification for Jayne in my eyes.

If people want to write it, They can. I will not try to hinder them in any way, or leave any comments to put them off their stride. that is their right. But this is a general discussion.

I normally do read any justifications for Rayne (or any other pairing) because simply put I want to see where the notions come from. but I cannot see it at all, and the "justifications" are too off center for me.

PS Just to be clear, my stance on the whole thing:

I CAN see river having a crush on Mal. I cannot see him reciprocating it.

I CANNOT see River having a crush on Jayne. I also cannot see Jayne having a crush on her.

I CAN see River getting a crush on someone else. I CAN see them returning it, especially if they are a teenager (they say when you are 16 everything is a true love). I CAN also see it ending badly.

(I know Rayne writers/readers are being forced into an oppressed minority, but I hate how it has become the default scenario for new writers. They wanna write a story and take Rayne as a given (either because of how much there already ios, or because of them being the two free crew members). If people write it it should be for the right reasons. That way I would avoid less authors. Yes I am that selfish)

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