FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Stitch was Justified in his Action against the Man they Called Jayne

POSTED BY: RIVER6213
UPDATED: Thursday, March 29, 2007 03:39
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Monday, March 19, 2007 7:08 PM

RIVER6213


I don't know about you but I think that Stitch was totally justified about his feelings and actions regarding Jayne. Jayne totally back-stabbed Stitch in the worse possible way. Stitch spent 4 years in a prison box because the person he trusted betrayed him for money. Stitch deserved to get revenge. What do you think about that?

-River




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Monday, March 19, 2007 8:50 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


'Course he was.
But the final battle came down to scumbag vs. scumbag, and our scumbag won.
Jayne caught a lucky break when the kid threw himself into the shotgun blast, and killed Stitch.

Morality, justification, justice had nothin' to do with it, only survival.

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Tuesday, March 20, 2007 3:01 AM

SHINYED


I'd have to say that Higgins should have been Stitch's target of revenge, not so much Jayne. Higgins is the one that stuck him in that box for 4 years...4 years inside a box, it's hard to imagine how anyone could survive that torture.

Stitch could have shot Higgins and the prod foreman right there & then gone after Jayne.
Any "sympathy" I had for Stitch's situation went away after he beat the crap out of Simon.

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Tuesday, March 20, 2007 3:25 AM

SPACEANJL


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

But the final battle came down to scumbag vs. scumbag, and our scumbag won.
B]




Yay for Our Scumbag!

Jayne is not a cuddly teddy bear. He never will be. He is a big, violent, dangerous criminal.

The fact that I enjoy watching him beat the crap out of people says more about me than him.

But then I'm not right.

Stitch was justified. But like so many bad guys, he had to go and speechify. As Tuco said, "when you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."

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Tuesday, March 20, 2007 3:32 AM

ODDSBODSKINS


A recurring theme in FF was that Morality takes second place to survival in these kind of 'frontier' circumstance's.

In the case of Stitch, the scriptwriter subjected himself to this philosophy as well

________________________________
You Can't Deal With My Infinite Self

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Tuesday, March 20, 2007 3:35 AM

DONCOAT


I agree, Stitch had a legitimate beef.

But the real bad guys here were Higgins and his foreman. They were the (semi)legitimate authorities on that moon. Rather than pursuing a legal prosecution against Jayne -- no doubt fearing an all-out Mudder revolt -- they empowered Stitch to do their dirty work for them. How can anybody blame Stitch for doing what they set him up to do?

I agree also that if I were Stitch and Higgins had just let me out of a box after four years and handed me a loaded weapon, the boss man would have had about three more seconds to live. It probably would have gone something like this:

Higgins: "Jayne's back in town".

Stitch: *BLAM* "...That's interesting."



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

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Tuesday, March 20, 2007 3:37 AM

SPACEANJL


It is a different code of morality out on the Rim.

Mind you, Jayne thinks ethics is a place on Dyton Colony...

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Tuesday, March 20, 2007 5:26 AM

TINADOLL


I agree with several points that were brought up. Jayne is "our" scumbag -although he does learn by the Ariel incident that perhaps that he needs not to be square with Mal. I also think that there are a diffrent set of morals out in the black.

But if you remember how he even got on Serenity(Out of Gas) i don't think Mal trusts him. Or he wouldn't have thought immediatly thought that it was Jayne who ratted him out during Ariel.

Now was Stitch justified? Well partially but i would have shot Higgans and then gone and shot Jayne. And not talked so much too.

Bad guys tend to do that alot..


So whats wrong with a little Jaylee?

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Tuesday, March 20, 2007 6:51 AM

ANONYMOUS1


RiveR6213,

Watch Mal's face when as Stitch talks...about how you don't treat the people with you...you know your crew. Mal gives a real stern look towards Jayne. Sort of like...this is what I let on my ship. Mal is agreeing with Stitch.

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Tuesday, March 20, 2007 8:49 PM

BAGHEERA


yeah, of course stitch was in the right, although i still think he should have taken action against the bossman that threw him in the box.

jayne's a scumbag, sure, but he's not a total loss to be written off, and i think Mal recognizes that he's in the grey area of indecision... and needs to be "shown the way through the woods".

if jayne were a total loss, Mal would have easily written him off as he did with Saffron (though not without a preachy "you cant always depend on yourself, you need people sometimes" interlude, of course.

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Tuesday, March 20, 2007 9:49 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


THe most interesting thing about Jayne is that we see him growing, some. IN Jaynestown, and in Ariel, and in The Message, we see him thinking about himself, and coming to some conclusions, small steps. In particular, we see that he actually HAS a loyalty to Mal. Come to think of it, we see that in the Big Damn Pilot, where he asks Dobson if this means crossin' ths captain. Jayne doesn't really know what makes himself tick, but we see him starting to figure it out. Lotsa room for growth there.

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Wednesday, March 21, 2007 1:29 AM

FLATTOP


Quote:

Originally posted by DonCoat:
Higgins: "Jayne's back in town".

Stitch: *BLAM* "...That's interesting."



Would definitely been in keeping w/ the 'verse.

I'm gald our scumbag won. Even sorta glad it happened the way it did (not that I want kids getting shot up), as it did help Jayne take another small step towards humanity.


When the badguy starts on his rant justification and/or plans rant, it's called "Monologue-ing". This has been the cause of many an evil-doers demise/capture (from The Incredibles).



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Wednesday, March 21, 2007 4:12 AM

SABRI3L


Yes I think Stitch was justified, yeah Jayne is a scumbag sometimes.

I disagree that Jayne has no morals at all however. If he did not he wouldn't have felt remorseful after the kid got shot on Canton. He wouldn't have bothered taking Simon and River with him when he escaped after Ariel, he wouldn't have cared what Mal said about how he died, and he wouldn't be sending money home. Yeah he can be a pig, and very crass, but he has heart, he just needs some help (whether it be kind words or a wrench to the face). I have a feeling that Jayne left home at a very young age and went where the money was. And being an overgrown kid on the rim who can shoot, he probably fell in with some remorseless hun dans. you spend enough time (especially formative years) fighting and scrabbling to keep bullets out of you and keep your little scrap of the verse and that is bound to have an effect.

*--------------------------------------------*
Forsaken Knitter of Cunning Jayne Hats

Hell on wheels


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Wednesday, March 21, 2007 4:36 AM

GORRAMGIRL


Now I definitely agreed that Jayne sees things in a different manner, and more often as not, I'd like to take that wrench to him myself. But I'm going to risk being corpsified by disagreeing that Stitch was in the right---mostly.

The Rim is a harsh place. You got Reavers, you got pirates, you got people who would as soon turn on you to take your ship at any sign of weakness. And, all these people do crime.

As we see so often with FF, crime don't go smooth. There isn't the luxury of "leave no man behind" sort of ideal, because that just gets y'all killed.

Yes, Jayne was scum by leaving Stitch to Higgins. But, Jayne ain't exactly a subtle man. There is NO WAY Stitch could have failed to see what Jayne is capable of. (It was implied they'd worked together for a while). So, Stitch knew who and what he was working for. He shouldn't have been surprised.

And yes, I do agree that he should have turned around and shot Higgins. For the life of me, I couldn't figure out why he didn't, unless Higgins has a penchant for hiding snipers in the nearby.

"They don't like it when you shoot them. I figured that out myself." ---Mal (War Stories)

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Wednesday, March 21, 2007 8:04 PM

SABRI3L


Also we don't know Stitch's back story, he seemed like a total scumbag, he may have done things downright vile. When the opportunity presented it self to get rid of him, maybe Jayne took it. Stitch was going on about protecting the one your with so perhaps Stitch saved Jayne at some point, so rather than outright killing him, Jayne left him to Higgins. I think being trapped in a dark small box for a undisclosed sentence is worse than death.

*--------------------------------------------*
Forsaken Knitter of Cunning Jayne Hats

Hell on wheels


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Thursday, March 22, 2007 5:27 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by Anonymous1:
RiveR6213,

Watch Mal's face when as Stitch talks...about how you don't treat the people with you...you know your crew. Mal gives a real stern look towards Jayne. Sort of like...this is what I let on my ship. Mal is agreeing with Stitch.



I just finished watching that scene and you were right about it. Strange how it is that I never noticed the look on Mal's face during that bit...

-River

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Friday, March 23, 2007 6:25 PM

SABRI3L


Mal already knows Jayne's nature though. I mean he shot his on men just to get a 3% pay raise and his own bunk.

*--------------------------------------------*
Forsaken Knitter of Cunning Jayne Hats

Hell on wheels


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Sunday, March 25, 2007 1:06 PM

BAGHEERA


Quote:

Originally posted by Sabri3l:
Mal already knows Jayne's nature though. I mean he shot his on men just to get a 3% pay raise and his own bunk.



I dun rightly agree with that.

Mal never expressly said "you gotta turn on the captain" in order to get the pay raise and his own bunk and all...

Jayne just shot cuz he was pissed off and didnt care about his old crew anymore (well, he probably didnt care in the first place, either)

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Sunday, March 25, 2007 1:14 PM

NBZ


Mal knows Jayne is a double crosser.

he may not agree, but that is what he signed up and was probably greatful for.

Afterall if jayne did not turn on his last crew, Mal would probably be dead.

To me the look was more about "Is there anyone you haven't turned on?"

Express words were not needed. Mal did say come on to this side and we give you a larger share and your very own bunk. Can't get much clearer than that.

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Wednesday, March 28, 2007 5:17 PM

TRAVELER


The difficult part of this is Jayne. He is growing up. He was the scum that Stitch discribed. And at this point Jayne had not changed much. His selfishness is still a very large part of his nature. But there is change. After Jayne kills Stitch he gets honest. He probably was never that honest in his whole life. "There are only people like me", is a hard fact to admit to for Jayne. That he still has a lot more growing up to do is made obvious in "Arial". Mal has to us a wrench and comes very close to removing Jayne from the crew. But Jayne does it again. Instead of continuing to plead for his life he askes Mal not to tell the others. Jayne is forced to face his ego again and he repents. These are baby steps toward being part of the crew.

Jayne just started growing up at a later stage of life. One can only imagine what made Jayne this self-centered creature who's only desires are the payoff and sex.

So the person Stitch cursed and attempted to seek revenge against was gone. The Jayne Stitch knew is not the Jayne who is on board the Serenity. Given time Jayne would have more opportunities to see himself. It is in moments like facing Stitch and what Mal did to him at the end of "Ariel" that Jayne has a mirror placed in front of him and he sees his behavior for what it is; egotism. Jayne must make a choice. He could have lied to the Mudders. Instead he faced his demons and spoke the truth.

This is why Jayne is on Serenity. He sees something on this ship he has never known before. He does not understand it and does not how it works. He just knows he must stay and what ever it is will show itself to him. One of those times was with Stitch. There will be more.


Traveler

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Thursday, March 29, 2007 3:39 AM

NBZ


He is on Serenity because he does not have sleep with one eye open. There more paranoid people than him onboard.

There is a comfort in knowing you are the least trustworthy person. It means you do not need to watch your back. In OiS (IMO) he defo knew what was going on. but since there are more paranoid people onboard, he was not gonna stick his neck out unless told to.

Jayne is between 30 and 40 years old. Maybe older. I am certain that he has had other opportunities to change. Other times people have been good to him. The thing is, does he want to?

He lives simple and enjoys violence.

The money is not necessarily greed. We know he sends some back to his mother. If he does not get paid, others suffer. He may turn down a pay cheque or two, but eventually he will need the money. He accepts his life. enjoys most of it too.

He has not turned on Mal not only because he likes the guy, he also respects him. Understands how he thinks too. most of the time. Just can't understand why he is risking everyone's neck for the Tams.

In Trash the speech that Mal gave to Saffron before she pulled huis gun would in my mind apply to Jayne too. give him a little time, and the hurt goes away. He goes back to what he has always done.

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