FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Tracy: Is there anything good about him?

POSTED BY: POLISHROCKER93
UPDATED: Thursday, July 5, 2012 16:59
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VIEWED: 1494
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Tuesday, July 03, 2012 10:41 AM

POLISHROCKER93


Hi everyone. I'm recently got into firefly and while most of it is excellent I have an issue with "The Message". Now I am asking for input on Tracy's character traits because after watching this episode a few times, I still see no reason to be sorry for what he has gone through. I sometimes skip the episode because of him. I just want to know the opinions of other fans so that maybe I can enjoy the episode at last or maybe some insight into why i should care for him. No need to be persuasive, just speak your piece.

I for one think he was pathetic. During the war he seemed useless, barely caring the Zoe saved him, just caring about eating in that one moment. He plays Mal, Zoe, and Kaylee with that recording just so he can get some money on organs which instead of going to some people that may need them, go to those that will just pay the most. He arrogantly wallows in his boyish charm to impress Kaylee, not caring that the crew is put in danger because of him. He doesn't trust his superior officers from the war that saved him during battle even though they viewed him as bit of a waste of space and supplies. And even as he dies he just keeps relying on them, spewing the same ridiculous quote as if all he is able to do is rely on others, even when he has huge paranoia and trust issues.

I just don't understand why zoe and mal are so hung up on him out of all people. I bet they lost plenty of other able bodied friends during the war and I bet none of them did the greedy things tracy has done. Tracy put himself into the situation, it was his fault. So it's best at the end during the funeral that tracy's family doesn't find out what happened to Tracy because they might feel brokenhearted about the kind of man he really was.

Anyway, I don't want to go on much further but just a few other mentions were Kaylee's jarring lack of taste by just moving her attention off simon who she knows and trusts more, to a guy who she thought was dead but is actually alive, lies in that message that she obsesses over, and holds her hostage. What is this? Necrophilia? I just think the idea of a united crew here was completely ruined and after this she moved way down in the list of my favorite characters. I lost faith in the idea that Kaylee knows right from wrong.

Finally the funeral, the episode production calls for a lavish musical piece, a reply of the lying recorded message, and everyone looking more solemn than at Nandi's funeral, and she was much more honorable than tracy.

In conclusion, I guess what i can take from this is that the episode shows how this universe changes people and how the war may have changed someone beyond recognition, but I would like to know why everyone is so caring about Tracy and why the producers tried to evoke such emotional sympathy for this wreak of a man.



Thanks for reading my wall of text. If you can refute any of my points that would be great. and no need to get touchy or angry with me, i am just looking for a healthy discussion. Thanks :)

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Tuesday, July 03, 2012 11:36 AM

BYTEMITE


Relative to the other thread, this is a little too far the other way. All the characters made some mistakes here that lead to Tracey dying, doesn't make them good or evil.

If anything, the only faults Tracey has is that he's willing to use the crew for his own safety and that he really did not think this through, which that kinda makes you wonder about his intelligence. I mean, let me get this straight: you let someone scoop out your own organs, which they might have just sold off once they had them, and let them put new organs in you for smuggling. Those organs will be removed when you get to the location, so you can replace your own organs which they hopefully still have but maybe not.

The people you're smuggling organs for would probably be covering their asses a lot better if they take both the original organs and the smuggled engineered organs and let you die (no witnesses), plus they'd make double their money.

Then when you realize they might have sold off your own organs, you make a deal with someone else to sell your smuggled organs to... Who certainly won't have your original organs.

What part exactly of this plan makes any sense whatsoever?

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Tuesday, July 03, 2012 11:47 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Tracey is a totally unsympathetic character, and the only reason Mal and Zoe care is because he was one of their comrades during the war. They would have done pretty much the same thing and felt the same way about any of them.







wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Tuesday, July 03, 2012 1:39 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Tracy is rather stupid really, but Mal and Zoe have a history with him so they care because of that. But when he becomes a threat they will immediately put the people they care about now first instead of him.

I think Tracy is an example of someone who sort of lost himself in circumstances, things got too complicated, partly because he screwed up in life but partly due to forces and events beyond his control. I think we've all known people like that in real life.

I have Kathy Bates on speed dial, mwa ha ha ha (in exaggeratedly evil voice)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Tuesday, July 03, 2012 4:24 PM

MORSE


Wo wo wo, way too much Tracy hate.

The main thing I want to address is just the portions of Tracy during the war. People look at the Unification War typically in a very naive sort of way. In general its "Browncoats good, Alliance bad" (now this isn't what I'm talking about, we can do another thread for this)

But he Independents drafted people the same as the Alliance. Even though there were a large number that didn't, the fact is that they would.

-Evidence for that. - It is mentioned Mal is a volunteer (you wouldn't list volunteer as a distinction unless you were drafting people) - In extras it lists that most in serenity valley were volunteers (same principle) - In a major conflict like this, you would no doubt have a draft, especially as times got desperate. (In the Civil War the Confederacy enacted the draft before the Union did.)

Now Tracy did mention he signed up, but he may have signed up to just avoid getting drafted. He also may have gotten swallowed up by propaganda. And the only thing you see him do is at that one battle, which was a crushing defeat.

Don't hate on Tracy for that single incident of combat. If he managed to survive the full 5 years of the war and come out the way he did, he's probably a better soldier then you give him credit for.

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Tuesday, July 03, 2012 5:45 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

The Alliance was started out of an idealistic belief that a strong central government that controlled every aspect of a person’s life, from cradle to grave, could provide that person a better, safer, and more secure life. Some folk in the Alliance truly believed this and they dedicated their lives to bringing this about. Other folk saw this as a chance to grab power for themselves.

The Parliament formed a military council that acted quickly to quell any unrest among the Core planets and their neighbors. Maintaining order meant keeping tight control over the populace, and that led to the creation of many secret programs. Their hope was to make people obedient, complacent, compliant— “better” by the government’s definition.

The Alliance was the protective parent. The Core worlds were model children. But the Alliance had another problem. They feared their “good children” were going to be corrupted by the bad seeds who lived on the wrong side of the ‘Verse. The worlds on the Border and the Rim were self-governing, outside the limits of Alliance control. Each world had its own set of laws and rules that suited its own particular needs. Folk living on these frontier planets had been forced to be self-reliant in order to survive, and they had come to be free-thinkers who saw no need for a lot of government meddling. The Alliance considered such independence a threat to civilization. (They also considered that a lot of valuable resources and real estate were outside their control!) For the benefit of all people in the ‘Verse, the Alliance decided that every planet in the system should come under Alliance rule, whether its people wanted it or not.

Idealistic folk of the Core planets thought this was a great idea. Doesn’t everyone would want to live on a safe, civilized world where folk are cared for by their betters? The movement for Unification spread like wildfire through dry brush. The leaders on the Core thought they had only to open their arms in a wide embrace and those poor benighted souls on the Rim would come running home to their mothers.

Those on the Border did come running. Only problem—they carried guns.

The War for Unification was the most devastating war in human history. All those who lived through it are marked, like a scar left behind by an old wound. (Just that some happen to have big scars traced all ‘cross their faces while others have tiny ones hidden away.) Outer planets, including Shadow, Persephone, and Hera, mustered forces and formed an alliance of their own—the Independent Faction (known as “Browncoats,” thanks to the brown dusters their soldiers took to wearing). The Parliament of the Alliance instituted a draft to build its forces. They were considerably astonished to learn that more than half of the Independent forces were composed of volunteers. The Alliance (known as the “Purple Bellies” for their style of dress) had the manpower, the ships, and technology to make the result of the war a forgone conclusion—but no one anticipated that freedom would be something so many folk would be willing to die to protect.



Considering the whole Blue Sun plots that were hinted at and all the secret government programs and the stated objective of the Alliance, it is just really hard for me to see them as anything but the worst kind of fascists.

Quote:

And the only thing you see him do is at that one battle, which was a crushing defeat.


Er... The Battle of Du Khang? Actually, we don't really know how that one ended.


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Tuesday, July 03, 2012 8:45 PM

MORSE


If that whole description of the Alliance comes from the RPG book, I don't recognize it as completely cannon. The Alliance 'was' a fine entity until it came to the point that they had to make Serenity and they turned them from something similar to the 3rd worlds view of the U.S to an Evil empire. And going off that it doesn't say the entirety or even the majority of the Alliance is bad.

As for Du Kangs outcome. Mal mentioned that there were signs of an inevitable crushing defeat, their lieutenant was suffering from shell shock, they were completely surrounded and outgunned where the Alliance was about to start charging in, and Tracy mentioned that he didn't want to die for that rock (a statement commonly mentioned when your destined to lose) - Now regardless of whether or not they lost, in the skirmish in which they were involved, they were clearly being depicted as being on the losing side.

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Wednesday, July 04, 2012 2:54 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

The Alliance 'was' a fine entity until it came to the point that they had to make Serenity and they turned them from something similar to the 3rd worlds view of the U.S to an Evil empire. And going off that it doesn't say the entirety or even the majority of the Alliance is bad.


Fine entities don't cut up little girls or send out Federal marshals to retrieve said little girl while calling them "precious cargo" or hire contractor assassins like the Blue Hands or go conquering where they aren't wanted or deny and cover-up the existence of dangerously crazy people like Reavers - not unless they were hiding something.

And the U.S. is an evil empire. To be an empire, you just have to be occupying foreign lands for economic reasons. To be an evil empire you also have to be exploiting the locals for labour, training assassins, and plotting to kill your own citizens.

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Wednesday, July 04, 2012 2:59 AM

BYTEMITE


Hmm. We still don't know exactly what happened after that. The skirmish though, yes, they withdrew.

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Wednesday, July 04, 2012 4:52 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


It is commonly accepted that Joss used the American Civil War as a partial template upon which he built the Firefly 'verse. Unless you live in the Deep South, the usual assumption is that the Union=good, the Confederacy=bad. I know it's not as clear-cut as that, but states' rights does not justify slavery. But in the Firefly 'verse it was The Alliance that condoned slavery, not the Independents. Which is the better side of that conflict?







wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Wednesday, July 04, 2012 8:00 AM

MORSE


That is not true regarding Alliance condoned Slavery. There are 2 situations when you here about slavery, and one is on the border with trashy people in a bar (not really Alliance types) who want to sell to terraformers, which isn't exactly a full Alliance done thing. If it was they would have had a better hold on the planets. The other is on Persephone, which was a former Independent world.

I think the Alliance says slavery is illegal, but has no choice but to look the other way on it.

As for the Alliance being an evil empire. Your talking about 1 single incident. In a verse with upwards of 40 billion people, there is 1 little girl, who represents a significant investment. Only Dobson called her Cargo. And no one really knows if the Hands of Blue were in fact working for the Alliance (evidenced since they killed Federal Martials)

You look at the single incident and apply it to the whole. Which is ultimately the problem with most Firefly fans. They see the Alliance as pure evil.

I can put it as simple as this. Evil people don't let the rebelling conquered soldiers go free without punishment. When the war ended, The Independents weren't outlawed or executed en masse. They just let them go to live their lives. That doesn't sound like an Evil Empire to me.

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Wednesday, July 04, 2012 11:01 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:



I think the Alliance says slavery is illegal, but has no choice but to look the other way on it.



Well, basically, but then you have to remember a lot of the rich people in the core have their servants, and that the government is in bed with the corporations in a lot of cases. The RP says that every now and then Federal Marshals go in and bust slave traders because it makes them look good, but there seems to be widespread knowledge of it in addition to being close to home and looking the other way. Plus, sometimes they accept bribes.

I think it's pretty ugly and I think there isn't really a full-hearted effort in enforcing against slavery, which in my eyes condemns them.

Quote:

Your talking about 1 single incident.


1 plus 30 million. Miranda was also pretty bad.

Quote:

They see the Alliance as pure evil.


Oh, I think they're neutral over all. But what is evil, is some seriously nasty stuff, and it's enough to paint the rest of it as pretty bad, because that stuff simply wouldn't happen if the government wasn't sanctioning it.

Quote:

Evil people don't let the rebelling conquered soldiers go free without punishment. When the war ended, The Independents weren't outlawed or executed en masse. They just let them go to live their lives. That doesn't sound like an Evil Empire to me.


They weren't going to at first.

Even then, some of the Browncoats continued to fight on for two weeks after that. Those soldiers who continued to fight even after being ordered to lay down arms were captured and tried for war crimes. Ultimately, the Alliance released the soldiers and officers as a peaceful gesture to those outer planets now under its rule.

But even so, that one instance of clemency doesn't contradict that they met the DEFINITION of an evil empire. Do they conquer territories? Do they exploit local labor and resources, either directly or through corporate interests that pushed for forceful expansion in the first place? Do they have assassins? Do they kill their own citizens?

It's an evil empire.

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Wednesday, July 04, 2012 11:03 AM

STORYMARK


I love the episode, but I always found Tracy to be a completely unsympathetic douche.

Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, July 04, 2012 8:31 PM

EBFIDDLER


The Message is one of my least favorite episodes. Tracey is not a very sympathetic character: he mostly behaves badly, he has a history of making bad decisions, and he continues in character, making more bad decisions as the episode goes on. Why are Mal and Zoe so keen on him, so ready to honor his final request (both times it is made)? I have to assume that it's because of something, or more than one something, that happened during the war. Perhaps beyond the general sense of loyalty toward a comrade (and in case of Mal, the responsibility he would have felt as the man's sergeant) that Mal and Zoe would have felt toward all those they served with. We get a hint of what it might have been in Mal's story of the Colonel's mustache. I speculate that Tracey's sense of humor, his clowning, somehow was very important. Perhaps Tracey's clowning saved them all from eating their boots and each other during the starving times in the winter campaign in New Kasmir. Or maybe Tracey's clowning helped keep them sane in the dire circumstances of Serenity Valley.

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Thursday, July 05, 2012 6:05 AM

BYTEMITE


I think anything in general which kept them alive formed some kind of bond. Mal and Tracey both strike me as kind of clownish, whereas Zoe was a no nonsense sort who always got the job done, all of it saved their lives.

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Thursday, July 05, 2012 4:59 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Those familiar w/ Jonathan's character, Knox ( ANGEL ) have seen this sort of twist before. Tracy comes off as sympathetic and 'aww shucks' at first, but in reality, he's carrying around a boat load of trouble along with him. Not to say that he's only capable of playing one sort of role, as Knox certainly isn't Tracy, but I think it's a testament to Jonathan that he can pull that sort of switcheroo. ( But with the writers on Joss's team, who can't ? )

" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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