A Second War? by Morse

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

A Second War?

POSTED BY: MORSE
UPDATED: Friday, January 25, 2013 12:00
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Monday, July 16, 2012 6:14 PM

With what was seen in Serenity, the general consensus amongst the Firefly Role Play community is that that a second war would be started as a result. What's more is that a majority of them also believe that it is one the Alliance would win.

I personally disagree with this completely, but I want to know what other people think before I just jump on that. In essence what I'm asking is, if you think it would lead to another war, and why. And if you do, who do you think would win, and why.

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Tuesday, July 17, 2012 2:48 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

In a real Universe the Rim will need a bigger military in the Second Unification War than in the first war.

But the Rim doesn't even have the military strength to fight the Reavers. How can it win a new fight with the Alliance? Where are the new volunteer fighters coming from? Are they the people who didn't volunteer for the first war, but for the next war they will enlist and energetically fight?

The Rim got its ass beaten in the Unification War. (That's my impression from Mal and Zoe. Joss Whedon used the Confederacy and the Civil War as an example of a similar defeat.) Does the Rim have enough ammo factories in the year 2520 to win Unification War 2? Is Miranda, which died in 2506, before the Unification War, sufficient justification for a second war?

The Rim does not have the will to bury the dead from the first War. A lot of dead Browncoats are still in orbit at the Battle of Sturges. See the comics for vivid details. Why have the dead not been buried? Could it be that nobody cares enough? Why should they care so much more about Miranda's dead and care to go to war?

Since the Rim couldn't win the first time, and can't get rid of Reavers now, and won't be bothered to bury the dead, and doesn't have ammo factories because the Alliance destroyed them, what has changed to make a win possible in the next Unification war?

I know the answer: The courage and weaponry of a huge number of fresh, new Firefly role-player troops will assure victory!

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, July 17, 2012 5:30 AM

DMI

Expired, forgotten, spoiled rotten.

I agree that the alliance would win another war, but I don't think another war is the only possible next step in this story line.

With the signal out, people on all worlds, core and otherwise would no doubt be rethinking their government's actions. I could definitely see whatever underground group helped Simon free River gaining power and influence perhaps enough to begin more open and direct conflict with Blue Sun and other politico-corporate elite. This could end up meaning prodigy-weapons like River being deployed on both sides (those still under the control of Parliament or whoever vs. River and the others who have been freed). If it were my story, or if I weren't so absorbed in my own novel and writing that I could find the time to write fan fiction, that's where I'd take the story. I guess you could call it a war, but it'd be a little colder, a little more subtle at times, as one side fights to keep the signal alive and the other tries to prevent a civilian uprising or losing control over the military (I'd totally try to write some stuff where members of the Alliance military start to be swayed to act against the government and Mal and Zoey have a whole lot of trust issues over whether to let these purple bellies into the fold and come to terms with the fact that the people on both sides are just that - people).

----------------------------- I pray for one last landing, on the globe that gave me birth. Let me rest my eyes on the fleecy skies and the cool, green hills of Earth.

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Tuesday, July 17, 2012 7:11 AM

ZEEK

I don't see a second war happening at all. I think the signal would be used to remind Mal of his inability to do anything to stop the Alliance. I don't think it would have any significant impact and Mal would just get pissed off.

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Tuesday, July 17, 2012 12:07 PM

MORSE

See this is my whole point. The likeliness of another war just isn't there, and the odds of the Independents winning this time around are just zero.

Yes, the first time around the Independents got completely decimated over the course of 5 years. And the Alliance was weaker then. The Alliance was 'expanding' its control from the Core to the border and the rim. Now the Alliance has a presence everywhere, a full working navy and army, and a massive amount of factories and troops to call upon. They have ships floating around space to stop uprisings of every kind now, and if need be, it can put itself into full war mode to destroy everything.

BUT, this all works off the assumption that the 'signal' even does anything. Case in point, Bin Laden put out messages about all the bad things the West did all the time, and that didn't do anything. All the Parliament has to do is say that the whole thing was a hoax. Its not like the video was very complex, it wouldn't be something really difficult for idiot kids to make just to stir up some trouble.

It really is only something that would piss off some anti Alliance people, or people that have had contact with the Reavers. But Reaver contact has been downplayed to the point where its like a fairy tale for 10 years, so not too many people have had to worry about that.

Besides, the most angry anybody's been with the Alliance was during the Unification War when half the worlds went to war against them. At this point, sentiment is either the same, or its improved since the Alliance gives medicine and aid. And even if nothing has improved, they still got the crap kicked out of them last time.

- This is my whole point, and I don't quite understand why the entirety of the online roleplay community seems to think not only that a new war would start, but also that the Independents have a prayer.

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Tuesday, July 17, 2012 12:33 PM

ZEEK

Morse, yeah everything you said there makes sense to me. The only way the independents would have a chance is if the message caused an uprising within the alliance itself. Highly unlikely.

I also think it would be more like Joss to turn the sense of victory at the end of Serenity into a feeling of defeat. I think the Alliance would make the whole thing blow over in a matter of days. A brief flash in the pan of interest and then a cover up story. Then we'd get to see the way our characters react to putting lives on the line for what amounted to nothing.

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Tuesday, July 17, 2012 2:08 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I pretty much agree with Morse, the Alliance would downplay the message, people would lose interest quickly just like any other news story, and many would doubt the validity of the video, youtube anyone? Easy enough.

I have Kathy Bates on speed dial, mwa ha ha ha (in exaggeratedly evil voice)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Tuesday, July 17, 2012 3:11 PM

MORSE

See that's my point. And yet I run the only Firefly Forum RP online so far as I know, that not only doesn't take place after Serenity, but has a unanimous thought that it wouldn't cause a war, or do much damage to the Alliance at all. All the other Firefly forum rps take place after Serenity, and either are amidst a new war or after the war where the Independents dealt a crushing defeat to the Alliance.

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Tuesday, July 17, 2012 4:22 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by MORSE: I don't quite understand why the entirety of the online roleplay community seems to think not only that a new war would start, but also that the Independents have a prayer.

I can explain it using a Civil War analog. Firefly was inspired by the Civil War novel The Killer Angels. You are General William Tecumseh Sherman and they are General George Armstrong Custer.

After the Civil War, one became Commanding General of the Army (1869–83) and the other became a tragic military hero and exemplary gentleman who sacrificed his life for his country. That is why you are running an online Firefly RP Forum and the players will die in a Blaze of Glory.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, July 17, 2012 5:49 PM

OLDGUY

What Would Mal do ?

war would have to come with a bit more dynamics...for example...the Miranda story would create a large wake-up call for a lot of folk and would cause some to head even deeper into space..a space that is now perceived to be a bit safer with most of the Reaver population blown away....that could lead to discovery of another solar system...perhaps some other civilization already there waiting...could be as advanced, could be pre-warp drive but still capable of joining in a rebellion...Alliance, in typical fashion for the purpose of a 2nd movie would send one big ship out to explore and explain it to the rabble..only to get their butts handed to them...that's enough material to supply a 2 hour flick...and to introduce a great new world, and characters...whatever might come after that...left to imagine or to feed a TV series.

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Tuesday, July 17, 2012 6:34 PM

MORSE

Two - I can see that, but the problem is that 'we' (the people of my site) are the only ones who see it this way, and the other 4 Firefly rps that exist all say there's a next war. I'm just one person running my site, but there are 4 others, each with their own head admins and staff that all say the other way.

OLDGUY - That is a very unfeasibly far fetched idea, which doesn't really seem to resemble the plot of Firefly. But what we're talking about is that the general plot of these other sites is that after Miranda, the recording about the Reavers origins causes a massive amount of people to rise up, and revolt against the Alliance, and win, which in general doesn't make sense to anyone outside of those places.

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Wednesday, July 18, 2012 9:08 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by MORSE: Two - I can see that, but the problem is that 'we' (the people of my site) are the only ones who see it this way, and the other 4 Firefly rps that exist all say there's a next war. I'm just one person running my site, but there are 4 others, each with their own head admins and staff that all say the other way.

There is another way to change their minds.

Those people who want a war with the Alliance should think about what they will do with the Alliance when the Independents win. If they don't want to talk about it in the game forum then they're just a clutch of General Custers. I imagine they only want fun, so nobody will change their minds about the desirability of war. I got two real examples for those people.

First example is the Confederacy in The Killer Angels, the Civil War story that inspired Joss Whedon to write Firefly. With Lincoln dead, the United States didn't handle the Confederacy wisely after victory.

Second example is Iraq. The U. S. didn't handle Iraq wisely after victory. That turned into a expensive fiasco. Are the Browncoats capable of competently running the Alliance without bankrupting themselves in the aftermath of Unification War 2?

Going to war with Iraq would mean shouldering all the responsibilities of an occupying power the moment victory was achieved. These would include running the economy, keeping domestic peace, and protecting Iraq's borders—and doing it all for years, or perhaps decades. Are we ready for this long-term relationship? The Fifty-First State? by James Fallows, November 2002 www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/11/the-fifty-first-state/261
2/

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Wednesday, July 18, 2012 11:05 AM

ZEEK

Morse, I think you're probably just dealing with people who like happy endings. The independents are the underdogs. It's fun to imagine the underdog taking down the corrupt government. I don't think Joss was going for a happy story like that.

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Wednesday, July 18, 2012 11:13 AM

MORSE

Ya Zeek, that's pretty much it. But like I said, its not 'my' people that are doing it. Its Rpers on the other sites. We are the minority, and I think Two is also correct, just in the sense that they aren't thinking about that sort of thing.

I like Firefly be Firefly, where the Alliance, and people live with that. But that's just us it seems.

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Wednesday, July 18, 2012 2:05 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

Peace and rationality can't compete with war games. It is hopeless. The communal march against an "enemy" generates a warm bond with our neighbors, our Browncoat community, our nation, wiping out unsettling undercurrents of alienation and dislocation. War games gives us purpose, meaning, a reason for living. And the best part is you can't feel pain or actually be dead in a RP game. - www.amazon.com/War-Force-that-Gives-Meaning/dp/1400034639

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Friday, July 20, 2012 4:49 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by MORSE: Ya Zeek, that's pretty much it. But like I said, its not 'my' people that are doing it. Its Rpers on the other sites. We are the minority, and I think Two is also correct, just in the sense that they aren't thinking about that sort of thing.

I like Firefly be Firefly, where the Alliance, and people live with that. But that's just us it seems.

The role players like the idea of another war because it gives them chances to make their characters bigger damn heros. Just ignore them.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, January 25, 2013 4:48 AM

JOHNSTARHAWK

No one thought the Soviet Union would collapse either...until it did. Empires, esp those based on force and tyranny historically ALWAYS fall. It's just a question of when and how.. History makes that very clear. Recent events in the US have shown *us* to be dangerously close to a revolt, for that matter.

The open question would be whether or not the Miranda Incident would be enough to touch off such a revolt. Let me ask this: if tomorrow there were documented PROOF that the US government was working on mind-control drugs and actively attempting to control the population with the side effect of creating all the Ted Bundys and school shooters and other psychotic criminals would that not make you question the moral legitimacy of said government?

A lot also depends on just how the Alliance responded to the Miranda broadcast, which depends on just what sort of government the Alliance truly is.

IF the Alliance is a legitimate and moral government and the Miranda Project represents "rogue" elements or an otherwise abberantly corrupt current regime, then there is the possibility of that particular Parliament falling and a reformative one being voted in. This process is very familiar to many governments who have Parliamentary systems and "coalition" governments today.

If the Alliance (as it seems to be, based on the presentation in the show and movie) is a morally ILlegitimate government in it's entirety, then it's increasingly draconian measures designed to regain/retain control run the risk of pushing the population further towards revolt. Again, see the Soviet Union, French Revolution, even the US secession from Britain as historical examples. (The "Arab spring" for a more modern one.) Some might point to the Chinese as an example of a "successful" tyranny, but there are unique factors in play in China, first being the long-suffering nature of Chinese culture. Chinese typically aren't inclined towards revolutionary fervor in the face of unjust rule. That is NOT however, to be taken as an indication that they can't be otherwise, witness the Mao-led revolution that gave us the current regime, which happened less than 80 years ago.

Even with that willingness to tolerate a lack of freedom to help it, the current regime in China has been forced into increasing measures of economic freedom and development in order to placate the masses and retain political control. How much longer they can maintain that is anybody's guess.

So the issue of a 2nd "War of Independence" (a secessionary war) or an outright "revolt" (the planets remain in the Alliance but the government is forcibly changed) is very much an open question.

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Friday, January 25, 2013 8:48 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek: Morse, I think you're probably just dealing with people who like happy endings. The independents are the underdogs. It's fun to imagine the underdog taking down the corrupt government. I don't think Joss was going for a happy story like that.

Well... He COULD have been angling for that story, every story needs an arc and the main characters taking down The Powers that Be and their sinister organizations is a common theme in Joss's work.

Only thing is, Joss's endings tend to be a lot more pyrrhic/bittersweet/sad than many fans allow for. Dollhouse's ending taking down Rossum at last was post-apocalyptic, with most of humanity and civilization being wiped out.

He really doesn't write all out war against TPTB until the very end-game. Like when all the potential slayers are woken up. Or, as in Dollhouse, there aren't many left to fight.

Another War of Independence is very unlikely for those reasons. In the end, most probable outcome is just the usual crew against the Alliance and Blue Sun in a completely devastated verse.

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Friday, January 25, 2013 12:00 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

A fight between “Londinium” and “Sihnon” is more likely to explode the Alliance than a second Unification War. The Rim planets have been disarmed by the Alliance (assuming the Alliance has a little commonsense). That leaves the original founding planets where humans first landed to fight with each other over who is number one. Think of European Wars.

Quote:
Originally posted by JohnStarhawk: No one thought the Soviet Union would collapse either...until it did.

Reality contradicts you. It was a row of dominoes falling - mainly peacefully: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Soviet_Union "In order to revive the stagnant Soviet economy, in 1985 new Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev began a process of increasing political liberalization (glasnost/perestroika) in the communist one-party state. However, this liberalization led to the emergence from 1986 onwards of nationalist movements and ethnic disputes within the diverse republics of the Soviet Union. It also led to the revolutions of 1989 which saw the mainly peaceful (Romania excepted) toppling of the Soviet imposed Communist regimes of the Warsaw Pact, which in turn increased pressure on Gorbachev to introduce greater democracy and autonomy for the Soviet Union's constituent republics."

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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