FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

River in Shindig

POSTED BY: JEWELSTAITEFAN
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 05:31
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Monday, April 21, 2014 7:44 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I forget if this has been discussed before - if I saw it discussed, I wasn't paying enough attention.

When River speaks at Badger, in his dialect.....

Was she merely channeling Badger, and just chatting him or pushing his buttons, or.....

Was she actually reading Jayne, Zoe, Book and providing them with exactly the diversion they were looking for and talking about, and disarming Badger for that purpose? (even though they were unable to see it that way)

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Monday, April 21, 2014 9:54 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

When River speaks at Badger, in his dialect.....

Was she merely channeling Badger, and just chatting him or pushing his buttons, or.....

Was she actually reading Jayne, Zoe, Book and providing them with exactly the diversion they were looking for and talking about, and disarming Badger for that purpose? (even though they were unable to see it that way)



I think see was putting him at his ease and disarming him by role playing.

I get what you are implying when you suggest she being a see-er she was responding to what they were suggesting they needed. I love the notion and want to say yes, being a see-er she would have picked up on what was going on.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2014 9:07 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by MIKER:
When River speaks at Badger, in his dialect.....

Was she merely channeling Badger, and just chatting him or pushing his buttons, or.....

Was she actually reading Jayne, Zoe, Book and providing them with exactly the diversion they were looking for and talking about, and disarming Badger for that purpose? (even though they were unable to see it that way)



I think it's the latter, but not in a particularly lucid way. More like an unconscious reflex, the way you might swat a fly.

Basically, at this point in the series, pre-Ariel, I don't think anything River does is guided by a full awareness of the world around her.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2014 9:34 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Quote:

Basically, at this point in the series, pre-Ariel, I don't think anything River does is guided by a full awareness of the world around her.


Makes sense. She prolly picked up that Badger was a ( minor ) threat, currently, & was responding to it, in her own - crazy River - way. Post Ariel , she likely would have simply done the math & killed them.

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Wednesday, April 23, 2014 7:44 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Basically, at this point in the series, pre-Ariel, I don't think anything River does is guided by a full awareness of the world around her.


Well, I don't agree with that.
TTJ, she knew the Hands of Blue were coming to Ezra for her.
BW, she knew the ship was full of ghosts, and that they had screamed to death.
Safe, she knew about Ruby and Patron, etc.
OMR, she knew all about YoSffBridg.

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Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:25 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Basically, at this point in the series, pre-Ariel, I don't think anything River does is guided by a full awareness of the world around her.


Well, I don't agree with that.
TTJ, she knew the Hands of Blue were coming to Ezra for her.
BW, she knew the ship was full of ghosts, and that they had screamed to death.
Safe, she knew about Ruby and Patron, etc.
OMR, she knew all about YoSffBridg.



Yeah, she knows those things, but she is utterly incapable of properly communicating with other people, incapable of truly putting them into a context of her present situation.

TTJ - she is sitting there mumbling, petrified, not telling anyone.
BW - she sneaks away without telling anyone, with no practical purpose but to follow the voices and stare at the bodies.
Safe - she actually markedly worsens her situation because she babbles forth what she knows about Ruby
OMR - again, complete inability to apply that knowledge in a useful way

She wallows in that information, or aimlessly follows it, or ineffectively shares it.

That's why I say there is no true connection to the reality around her until Ariel. After that she truly starts connecting, communicating, being effective.

Her heart-breaking speech to Simon in War Stories makes this very clear, too. She "functions like she's a girl" as opposed to a floating brain in a fog. Only it's still just temporary.

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Thursday, April 24, 2014 10:16 AM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Basically, at this point in the series, pre-Ariel, I don't think anything River does is guided by a full awareness of the world around her.


Well, I don't agree with that.
TTJ, she knew the Hands of Blue were coming to Ezra for her.
BW, she knew the ship was full of ghosts, and that they had screamed to death.
Safe, she knew about Ruby and Patron, etc.
OMR, she knew all about YoSffBridg.



Her heart-breaking speech to Simon in War Stories makes this very clear, too. She "functions like she's a girl" as opposed to a floating brain in a fog. Only it's still just temporary.



I think river is experiencing a multitude of images and thoughts. She is not sure what is about to happen. I think if she spoke to what was going on in her head it would be little more than babble to the crew. I am remembering she is so smart, and I think all that knowledge clouds the issue. While receiving an image of what is about to happen with Bagger, she may also being trying to figure PIE.

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Friday, April 25, 2014 3:32 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Basically, at this point in the series, pre-Ariel, I don't think anything River does is guided by a full awareness of the world around her.


Well, I don't agree with that.
TTJ, she knew the Hands of Blue were coming to Ezra for her.
BW, she knew the ship was full of ghosts, and that they had screamed to death.
Safe, she knew about Ruby and Patron, etc.
OMR, she knew all about YoSffBridg.



Yeah, she knows those things, but she is utterly incapable of properly communicating with other people, incapable of truly putting them into a context of her present situation.

TTJ - she is sitting there mumbling, petrified, not telling anyone.
BW - she sneaks away without telling anyone, with no practical purpose but to follow the voices and stare at the bodies.
Safe - she actually markedly worsens her situation because she babbles forth what she knows about Ruby
OMR - again, complete inability to apply that knowledge in a useful way

She wallows in that information, or aimlessly follows it, or ineffectively shares it.

That's why I say there is no true connection to the reality around her until Ariel. After that she truly starts connecting, communicating, being effective.

Her heart-breaking speech to Simon in War Stories makes this very clear, too. She "functions like she's a girl" as opposed to a floating brain in a fog. Only it's still just temporary.


She states "ghosts" as reply to their question.
She doesn't seem to understand why they ignore her when she's right all the time, even when they clearly hear her. So she came from an environment where those around her paid better attention to what she said. Just because they are too ignorant to listen to her and heed her does not mean she is the one not connected to reality. She just needs to comprehend the severely limited version of reality that the rest seem to communicate in.
As argued, she has a much fuller awareness of the world around her, now she just needs to understand how cloistered, blindered, and limited are the minor awareness levels of those around her now. This is the opposite of saying she is not aware, which is the statement I differed from.

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Friday, April 25, 2014 4:11 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


River communicates in one word statements. Fire, as Simon is about to blow out the cake. It's time when the baby is about to come in Heart of Gold. Ghosts, in Bushwhacked. If she had it going on she would realize the others were not understanding her. Joss wrote her into the script as being a mess and a mess she was.

Joss let her get it together enough to use her ability to see things when it suited the script. In other episodes he keep her crazy and used those very words in scripts to describe her.

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Sunday, April 27, 2014 11:43 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
She doesn't seem to understand why they ignore her when she's right all the time, even when they clearly hear her. So she came from an environment where those around her paid better attention to what she said. Just because they are too ignorant to listen to her and heed her does not mean she is the one not connected to reality.



But that is the very thing she is not aware of, the very reality she cannot grasp. That is exactly what I mean by disconnected from reality: her severe inability to communicate by fully taking into account the situation she is in, the people she is speaking to and how pointless one-word utterances are - no matter how often they don't work. Just because she has information coming in at rates the others don't doesn't mean she can put all or much of it in a proper context. Her awareness of reality is limited by being unable to focus and sort through all of it, and prioritize and thus properly participate - something that she only can do later with the help of medication. She misses key information, or withholds it, because she can't focus. Constant distraction is a form of disconnection.

Mind, I am not accusing her of anything. I am just describing what is going on. I love River. I find her disconnection deeply affecting.


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Sunday, April 27, 2014 4:33 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
She doesn't seem to understand why they ignore her when she's right all the time, even when they clearly hear her. So she came from an environment where those around her paid better attention to what she said. Just because they are too ignorant to listen to her and heed her does not mean she is the one not connected to reality.



But that is the very thing she is not aware of, the very reality she cannot grasp. That is exactly what I mean by disconnected from reality: her severe inability to communicate by fully taking into account the situation she is in, the people she is speaking to and how pointless one-word utterances are - no matter how often they don't work. Just because she has information coming in at rates the others don't doesn't mean she can put all or much of it in a proper context. Her awareness of reality is limited by being unable to focus and sort through all of it, and prioritize and thus properly participate - something that she only can do later with the help of medication. She misses key information, or withholds it, because she can't focus. Constant distraction is a form of disconnection.

Mind, I am not accusing her of anything. I am just describing what is going on. I love River. I find her disconnection deeply affecting.




I think this is very well stated and I am onboard with your diagnosis.

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Monday, April 28, 2014 8:15 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
She doesn't seem to understand why they ignore her when she's right all the time, even when they clearly hear her. So she came from an environment where those around her paid better attention to what she said. Just because they are too ignorant to listen to her and heed her does not mean she is the one not connected to reality.



But that is the very thing she is not aware of, the very reality she cannot grasp. That is exactly what I mean by disconnected from reality: her severe inability to communicate by fully taking into account the situation she is in, the people she is speaking to and how pointless one-word utterances are - no matter how often they don't work. Just because she has information coming in at rates the others don't doesn't mean she can put all or much of it in a proper context. Her awareness of reality is limited by being unable to focus and sort through all of it, and prioritize and thus properly participate - something that she only can do later with the help of medication. She misses key information, or withholds it, because she can't focus. Constant distraction is a form of disconnection.

Mind, I am not accusing her of anything. I am just describing what is going on. I love River. I find her disconnection deeply affecting.



Ok, I agree that while she is learning the new environment, landscape, and characters, she is not yet focusing on communication protocols. But I beg to differ that means she is not aware.

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Wednesday, April 30, 2014 5:31 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Ok, I agree that while she is learning the new environment, landscape, and characters, she is not yet focusing on communication protocols. But I beg to differ that means she is not aware.



I think we have deeply differing views of River.

To me, she is not a robot with a blank slate. She can not just develop communication protocolls out of the blue. She was perfectly able to communicate with people in fluent and cohesive ways. This skill was damaged and diminished by what they did to her brain. She is an emotionally fragile, highly distracted young woman, constantly trying to keept track of the myriad lines of information coming into her head. She is demonstrably unhappy with her condition, which she describes as something other than "functioning like she's a girl".

She cannot communicate because she cannot focus. And even after medication becomes available, her awareness of world and the information coming in is choppy. Just take "Objects in Space".

This is the girl who walked around Serenity and picked up a twig ("fully loaded, safety off") without being aware of what it was. ("It was in my hand.") You don't become much less aware of the real world than when you're hallucinating.


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