FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

What are the Alliance ?

POSTED BY: FARSCAPEPKWARS
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 22:58
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Friday, December 31, 2004 2:19 AM

FARSCAPEPKWARS


Clearly we have some stuff going on like the Alliance between the US and China, and this interpol thing happening. But what are the Alliance really about, sometimes it looks as if they are not too bad, they are a bit mean but other people within seem to live comfortable lives like Simon/River's family did. Other times the Alliance look like a regime of conquest maybe a little like those giant Spanish/European ships that went to S.America for exploration and colonisation. However the Alliance sometimes look very bad, like a scary Totalitarian Nazi leadership, Alliance have little forgiveness and understanding.But are things better in other worlds, more democratic... at the same time in other episodes they don't look so brutal, are they Soviets or Imperial-Capitalists, is hierarchy important ?


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Friday, December 31, 2004 2:29 AM

PURPLEBELLY


Whedon has suggested that sometimes the Alliance is like the US in Nazi Germany, sometimes like the US in Vietnam. I haven't heard a comparison made between the Alliance and the US in Iraqi, though one has been made between the fictional Browncoats and the people of Iraq - oh, that would be me
Quote:

"Mal's politics are very reactionary and 'Big government is bad' and 'Don't interfere with my life,'" Whedon told the New York Times. "And sometimes he's wrong–because sometimes the Alliance is America, this beautiful shining light of democracy. But sometimes the Alliance is America in Vietnam: we have a lot of petty politics, we are way out of our league and we have no right to control these people. And yet! Sometimes the Alliance is America in Nazi Germany. And Mal can't see that, because he was a Vietnamese."

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Friday, December 31, 2004 2:56 AM

FARSCAPEPKWARS


Quote:

Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
Whedon has suggested that sometimes the Alliance is like the US in Nazi Germany, sometimes like the US in Vietnam. I haven't heard a comparison made between the Alliance and the US in Iraqi, though one has been made between the fictional Browncoats and the people of Iraq - oh, that would be me
Quote:

"Mal's politics are very reactionary and 'Big government is bad' and 'Don't interfere with my life,'" Whedon told the New York Times. "And sometimes he's wrong–because sometimes the Alliance is America, this beautiful shining light of democracy. But sometimes the Alliance is America in Vietnam: we have a lot of petty politics, we are way out of our league and we have no right to control these people. And yet! Sometimes the Alliance is America in Nazi Germany. And Mal can't see that, because he was a Vietnamese."



good quote, it starts to explain a lot

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Friday, December 31, 2004 3:34 AM

HOTPOINT


I have developed my own model of what I reckon the Alliance is like for the Fic Series I write based on what we have observed of it. I'm too lazy by half to write it all out again but here's a section from one chapter which might be helpful.

Quote:


‘Economically the Alliance can be thought of as primarily mercantilist in nature, that is to say it is capitalist but without the notion of free trade or much in the way of state restrictions on monopolies’ Steven began. ‘In many ways it can be seen as a parallel to the situation within the gradually emerging economic situation during the 18th Century in that large companies formed to take advantage of the new colonial enterprises and whilst society was gradually industrialising in some areas agriculture still dominated the lives of many.’

The academic started pacing up and down as was his habit when teaching. ‘You can take the comparison further’ he said. ‘To give an example, during this time period on Earth-That-Was there was a private colonial concern known as the “East India Company” which was set up on the Indian Sub-Continent. Originally it was just a business but over the years it expanded its interests and eventually operated its own army both to protect these interests and expand them still further.’

‘In the end the British government and the East India Company became so entwined that it was hard to distinguish where one began and the other ended. Business turned to informal Empire and eventually outright annexation of territory.’ Steven said. ‘In a similar way the big terraforming companies and conglomerates of today were originally just private concerns but as they expanded outwards to develop new worlds the line was blurred between their perceived interests and those of the state.’

‘The Alliance bankrolled a number of these ventures through loans. It also lent troops to protect its investments. As the state became more and more involved in these private ventures the conglomerates similarly became more and more wrapped up in the state especially given the number of formally state-run sectors that were either privatised outright or contracted out such as communications.’

‘Money of course is another factor. Many politicians were either bought outright or else persuaded into voting one way or the other by well funded lobbyists with corporate backing.’

‘As the dividing line between the conglomerates and the government faded it was inevitable that it the end the needs of business would far outweigh the needs of the people, or indeed capitalism itself’. Steven paused to take a drink. ‘As they developed some of the outer planets had begun to industrialise and although such competition is actually beneficial to the economy as a whole it was bad news to the established firms in the core which fought back by persuading the government to introduce the diabolical tariff system we have to put up with now.’

‘Ironically this suppression of competition is one reason why the vastly outmatched Independent industrial base kept us going so long. Many of the core factories insulated from competition were highly inefficient and bureaucratic by comparison to the newer more dynamic enterprises on the rim. They had many times the industrial potential but nowhere near the individual productivity per worker which is one reason why all those gleaming core metropolises didn’t crush the Browncoats instantly under a tidal wave of logistics like they really should have.’

‘The other reasons were of course down to frequently poor tactical doctrine and a thorough lack of intestinal fortitude.’ Steven continued.

‘A lack of what did you say?’ Claire-Marie asked.

‘Intestinal fortitude’ Steven repeated. ‘Otherwise known as guts’ he continued smiling and slapping his stomach. ‘The bellies may have been purple on the outside but they were often yellow underneath’ he joked. ‘You can’t take some poor core draftee who’s lived a nice comfortable life for eighteen years drop him off in the middle of nowhere with a rifle and expect him to fight as hard as someone who is on their home-turf, who’s been hunting for food for much of their life and who has a much better grasp on why they’re actually fighting in the first place.’

The academic smiled again. ‘This reminds me of the old joke. An Ally and a Browncoat are lying together in a ditch wounded after a battle. The Browncoat asks the Ally why he’s fighting and the Ally says to unify the worlds under one government for the greater good. The Ally asks the same question to which the Browncoat replies…’

‘Because you’re down here’ Mal interrupted finishing the story. ‘Abstract ideals don’t mean squat next to knowing you’re fighting for your own land and your own kind.’

‘Too true, but in any case I digress’. ‘Another historical parallel with the 18th Century is the use of indentured servitude, and often outright slavery, across the inhabited worlds with little effort or motivation by the government to eradicate it.’

‘For the most part such things were abolished on Earth-That-Was six centuries ago but like a foul reminder of a bygone age it returned along with the subsistence farming communities of the rim and the forced-labour camps we often find employed during terraforming operations.’

Steven shook his head sadly. ‘Another product of the illiberal corporate Oligarchy of our times is the resurrection in many places of an actual aristocracy which again demonstrates a regression in our political situation and is a visual demonstration of how wide the gap is between the obscenely wealthy and the rest of us.’

‘A whattyarchy?’ Wash asked loudly. It looked like everyone had decided to turn up to listen in on today’s class.

‘Oligarchy’ Cally answered before her father could. ‘A government in which the power is within the hands of a small group not the many. In the case of the Alliance it’s the higher echelons of the military, the secret service, big business and certain politicians.’ She paused. ‘It’s not really a tyranny because power doesn’t wholly reside with one man or group not can it be called a Democracy by any stretch of the imagination.’



This is a section from Here Be Dragons (Part XV) you can find it and the rest of my stuff here http://www.fireflyfans.net/fulluserbluesunlist.asp?un=Hotpoint

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Friday, February 4, 2005 1:56 PM

THIEFJEHAT


Hotpoint, that was an excellent post. The economic dynamics of the 'verse is interesting indeed.

More to the generic point however, The "Alliance" as many of us know is short for the "Anglo-Sihno Alliance" (pronounced see-no) first established by the decendents of the inital American and Chinese Settlers of the Galaxy. At a time in the near future, the 2 superpowers on Earth are supposed to be China and the U.S.A. China is 1st to colonize a planet which they name Sihnon. The U.S. follows up with their 1st colony, Londinum.

As some time passed the two cultures merged and humanity continued to colonize the 'verse. In this time Earth was "used-up". Likely the resources of the planet went dry while at the same time pollution took it's toll. That's why everyone refers to earth as Earth-that-was.

As time went on, Sihnon and Londinum became capitals of the core worlds. Each world sharply reflects the cultures that established it with Sihnon being very asian and Londinum looking like it was cut out of the U.S. or the U.K. The two planets are each refered to in the pilot episode. Inara refers to Sihnon as the home world of the Companion's Guild. She tells her client in the pilot that words cannot capture the beauty of the great city of Sihnon, it's like an ocean of light. Likewise, Mal refers to the other core world to Kaylee when she wants to spend money to replace the compression coil. Mal replys: "And I'd like to be the king of all Londinum and wear a shiny hat" (BTW, this doesn't mean the hat is glossy. We know that shiny="cool" in future slang. It took me a while to get that. I keep seeing a shiny hat in my mind, not a "spiffy" hat)

The Alliance itself is the overarcing government that controls the core. This is obviously a mirror of the Union during the 1860's. The Alliance is more concerned about unification of humanity and less concerned about human rights. Concepts like slavery, aristocracy, and unregulated capitalism flurish in the Alliance. In such political systems there are always going to be more unfortunates than fortunates. In general, it's a recipe for a revolution by those abused and oppressed (rim worlders). I found it interesting that the American Civil War was fought (in part) by the union to end slavery. In this future it is the confederacy (Independance) that is fighting against slavery. These would be the poor folks that slavers snatch and drop in teraforming crews. Also possible the folks Reavers occasionally raid.

The general nature of the Alliance is hard to fully wrap your mind around. Just as Hotpoint's post indicates, The alliance is hard to distinguish from corporate interests(Blue Sun) and the emerging aristocracy created when wealth is held by a very few. The Allaince/Blue Sun/Aristocracy relationship is identical to the 18th century Parliament/East Inda Company/Royality relationship.

I love how Joss Whedon was able to craft such an intricate and utterly plausable future.

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Friday, May 13, 2005 3:43 PM

HOBOMAGIC


Quote:

The Alliance is more concerned about unification of humanity and less concerned about human rights. Concepts like slavery, aristocracy, and unregulated capitalism flurish in the Alliance. In such political systems there are always going to be more unfortunates than fortunates. In general, it's a recipe for a revolution by those abused and oppressed (rim worlders).


I hate to be picky, but large monopolistic corporations are almost always creations of government regulations, not the results of unrestrained capitalism. In fact, we know from Shindig that economic life is so highly regulated that the lord can't sell a few score cows. I think, more than anything, The Alliance represents the extent people will cede freedom to government in the name of the greater good. Every alliance laws sounded like a good idea at the time, but, at the end of the day, you turn around and realize all your freedom is gone.

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Friday, May 13, 2005 5:16 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by hobomagic:
I hate to be picky, but large monopolistic corporations are almost always creations of government regulations, not the results of unrestrained capitalism.

I so agree. So many things are falsely blamed on "unrestrained capitalism." If capitalism were truly unrestrained, there wouldn't be any huge monopolies. A true free market would allow competitors to put stagnant monoliths out of business, or at least challenge them enough to keep consumers' interest in the forefront.

Take big oil for example. A true free market would have long allowed small companies championing alternative fuels to challenge our slavish dependence on petroleum. But it is because capitalism is so restrained in our society that small companies have to jump through prohibitively expensive hoops to raise money and stay alive. These hoops are supposedly there to protect the consumer, but in reality, they protect big money from small potatoes with the great ideas. They can't afford the hoops, and big oil keeps their monopoly on fuels.

If you look at American history, you'll find scores of inventor/entrepreneurs squashed by the restraints of capitalism, in bed with government. In fact, that is my notion of the Alliance--the love child of both greed and coercion.

Do big corporations need to have checks and balances? You bet. But those checks never work when coming from government--because those restrictions work on both big business and its natural enemies, small business. Government restrictions end up serving big business by killing off their small business competitors.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Friday, May 13, 2005 7:10 PM

IMEARLY


The true face of the Alliance...



Sorry, could not resist.


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Saturday, May 14, 2005 6:15 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Together we will stop the signal.

OMG, ROFL. That is funny. Thanks.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:37 AM

THIEFJEHAT


Quote:

Originally posted by hobomagic:


I hate to be picky, but large monopolistic corporations are almost always creations of government regulations, not the results of unrestrained capitalism.



If that was the case then this website would not exist

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/

Unregulated capitilism creates monopolies. It has been proven solidly in the american 19th century in the form of JP Morgan and various railroad, steel, oil, and ore mining barons. Here is another site that will further educate:
http://projects.vassar.edu/1896/trusts.html

The Firefly 'verse is rife with unregulated capitilism. The nobleman in Shindig, Lord Warrick Harrow, was attempting to evade Persephone tariff restrictions, or rather export taxation, for moving his cattle to Jiangyin for sale in the episode 'Safe'. Tariffs and taxes can easily co-exist in a government with lax regulation on monoplies. By local Persephone law, he would have had to pay a % of the total cattle's value in order to export it offworld. Thats when smart tax-evading businessmen turn to smugglers.

What ppl need to understand here is the difference between Anti-trust issues and tarrifs.

Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony.

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Sunday, May 15, 2005 9:10 AM

CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS


I'd also argue that Persephone is far from the Core; while not the most backward planet, there seems to be only one city of prestige.

Also easy parallels such as The Alliance= the US, Independants= The Confederacy, Reavers= "Wild Injuns" are all misleading to a degree. There are some might fine points made above.

History repeats the old conceits

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Monday, May 16, 2005 5:36 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by FarscapePKWars:
But what are the Alliance really about, sometimes it looks as if they are not too bad, they are a bit mean but other people within seem to live comfortable lives like Simon/River's family did.




Do they?

If you remember the episode "Safe" when we see flashbacks of Simon telling his parents about something being wrong w/ River at the Academy, the blow it off. When he tries to reason w/ them by citing examples of the code they brush off his concern as separation anxiety.

Later we see Simon being bailed out of an Alliance jail by his father. When Simon tells his father that River is in danger and he intends to go back to a restricted zone his father tries to stop him. There seems to be no concern for River at all, in fact Simon's father seems more concerned over his reputation being damaged by Simon's actions or losing his social status. Simon's father struck me as caring more for steering clear of trouble w/ the authorities than his child.


Quote:

Other times the Alliance look like a regime of conquest maybe a little like those giant Spanish/European ships that went to S.America for exploration and colonisation. However the Alliance sometimes look very bad, like a scary Totalitarian Nazi leadership, Alliance have little forgiveness and understanding.But are things better in other worlds, more democratic... at the same time in other episodes they don't look so brutal, are they Soviets or Imperial-Capitalists, is hierarchy important ?



Well, I would say that they are certainly interested in holding onto everything they have as evidenced by the Unifaction War. I am certain that expansion is definitely a possibility too if they are look most governments/empires.

Are they a heartless group? We see plenty of evidence that they can be. In "Safe" they refuse to help Book until they see his ident card, only then do they get him medical help. If not for Book being conscious to show his ident card they would have let him bleed to death. In "Bushwhacked" we see the commander take the freight away from the crew even after they save his sorry butt. There are lots of instances where the Alliance shows disinterest or downright contempt for their citizens, but surely not all of them are like that.

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Monday, June 6, 2005 6:57 PM

ASTRAGYNIA


It always seemed clear to me that the Rim planets are like third-world countries in our world today, and the Core planets are the wealthy, Western countries. I'm not sure I can back that up with specific quotes; I guess I just kind of assumed. It seems to fit, though. According to this model, there are probably unequal trade deals between Core and Rim; Core multinationals - I mean multiplanetaries - like Blue Sun use raw goods and cheap unskilled (slave?) labour on the Rim at monopoly prices and flood the Rim markets with cheap goods to keep Rim industry from developing. And there are probably high tariffs when bringing finished Rim goods into the core if you're a Rim-owned company (and perhaps between Rim planets too, at least for cattle anyway) but Rim planets are powerless to keep Core products out of their markets because then the Core planets would cut them off from things that they need and depend on the Core for (products they don't have the technology/skills to produce themselves). Thes would mean that the Independents were probably fighting, in economic terms, for the power to determine their own separate trade policies, and less of the cultural integration with the Core, and maybe old deals with the Core to be repealed - perhaps the Alliance claims Rim planets owe the core for the cost of terraforming and colonisation?
Oh, and there's probably been a pretty horrendous gap between haves and have-nots on the Core worlds, too - which is where all those hapless Rim colonizers came from in the first place (though that goes more to 19th Cent. Britain and colonies like Australia).

Quote:

Originally posted by FarscapePKWars:
But what are the Alliance really about, sometimes it looks as if they are not too bad, they are a bit mean but other people within seem to live comfortable lives like Simon/River's family did.


The Tam family are the elite, the upper-middle-class; no titles, but a long history of money and education, and probably never even seeing people from the lower classes - except of course the servants.

Quote:

Originally posted by FarscapePKWars:
However the Alliance sometimes look very bad, like a scary Totalitarian Nazi leadership...


The Alliance certainly seem to have to Totalitarian/Fascist ideal of "the State is everything," I agree - though if there's a cult of one particular leader, we've never heard of him (or her).

Oh, and one more thought on the aristocracies: maybe some of the colonisation was done on the lines of New France (Quebec), where huge tracts of land were given out to rich individuals, who then found their own peasants to actually settle it? The Pern books by Anne McCaffrey have an original colonisation on this model, which seems to fit our 'verse fairly well.

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Saturday, June 11, 2005 6:53 PM

GTMAN8503


Quote:

Originally posted by Astragynia:
It always seemed clear to me that the Rim planets are like third-world countries in our world today, and the Core planets are the wealthy, Western countries.



Actually, I always saw the Rim Planets as the Southern states during Reconstruction, and the Western states during our expansion. Much like our government did during Western expansion, the Alliance offers promises of land to anyone who moves out. Naturally, poor people jump at the opportunity and move out to the Rim worlds because there's nothing for them in the cities. They get together in large groups of families, much like wagon trains, and pay for a ship to take them somewhere else (as seen in "Bushwacked")

And as for the Alliance, to me, it's a socialist-fascist police state, the big government of today taken further into the future (with China's socialism splashed in). Full of regulations and social programs that are supposed to "help" people, but actually wind up getting in the way (i.e., social security, welfare, medicare, etc.). It's a classic example of the government attempting to socially engineer the "ideal" society instead of serving the society which created it in the first place. However, we don't really see the Alliance that much, so my idea of them is really colored by both Mal's view of them and the fact that they're a combination of the American and Chinese governments. Since our government in America seems to increase in size and scope every day (caused by both Big-Government Democrats and Big-Government Republicans) with no regards to personal freedom, and China's socialist nature being similar, I assume that the Alliance is a Socialist-Fascist Police State, and the "Independent" movement was made up primarily of conservative-liberterians. This also seems to make sense based on what we've seen of the rural culture of the Rim planets as opposed to the metropolitan Central planets (i.e., the Rim planets are like Wyoming and the Central planets are like New York. Red State Browncoats vs. Blue State Alliance. Hmmm...blue state, blue sun? I wonder if there's a red sun...Probably not...I know Joss is a liberal).

"Blue Sun" also fits into this idea because large monopolies tend to be the result of government overregulation instead of rampant capitalism, as someone argued above.

I've always viewed the Alliance in terms of American history, particularly the Civil War and Western expansion, rather than looking at them as some sort of commentary on American foreign policy. I know Joss said something to the effect of the Alliance being "the U.S. in Vietnam", but I never got that impression from Firefly. It seemed to me that the Alliance was more "The Union in the South" or even "Britain in the Colonies", since really, the American Revolution was just a civil war that the Independents managed to win.

As for that FOX News reference above, as a conservative, I'd just like to say that FOX is the news source of the Independents. CNN, MSNBC, PBS, ABC, NBC, CBS, NYTIMES, LATIMES, REUTERS, BBC, etc. ,etc. all voice the opinions of Blue Sun and the Great and Mighty Alliance (aka, UN).

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Saturday, June 11, 2005 7:44 PM

GTMAN8503


Thinking a little more about the Alliance, I've decided that their actual political leanings, etc. are really unimportant. The genius of the Alliance is that we see it through Mal's glasses primarily, and therefore it's actual nature is unimportant. All we need to know is that it's:

1) Intrusive
2) A Bad Government

To actually go into much more detail would make Firefly too political, and, imo, ruin the show.

Since Mal and crew are our heroes, we naturally view the Alliance as bad. The exact politics can thereby be determined by the viewer, so that each person can, for themselves, create their own nightmare vision of a government. For example, being a conservative-liberterian, I view the Alliance as Socialist-Fascist. Essentially, to me, it's a government where Democrats have siezed power and held it for decades. Someone else of a more liberal persuasion might see the Alliance differently, maybe as a Right-wing Neoconservative Totalitarianism, or what-not. By keeping the Alliance's politics vague and generalized, it keeps the show from getting preachy about politics (Which is actually my main complaint about "The West Wing").

The nature of the Alliance doesn't matter to the overall story. To quote Jeff Tweedy, "Your Heaven looks just like my Hell." The Alliance's vague definition keeps people from forcing their political beliefs onto anyone else, and allows the show to transcend politics.

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Sunday, June 12, 2005 1:55 AM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by gtman8503:

And as for the Alliance, to me, it's a socialist-fascist police state, the big government of today taken further into the future (with China's socialism splashed in). Full of regulations and social programs that are supposed to "help" people, but actually wind up getting in the way (i.e., social security, welfare, medicare, etc.). It's a classic example of the government attempting to socially engineer the "ideal" society instead of serving the society which created it in the first place.



I would have to disagree with the notion that the Alliance is Socialist, or even National Socialist, in leaning in that it permits Slavery and Indentured Servitude and there are clearly elements of an aristocracy in at least a few worlds.

In addition there is no evidence that the Alliance provides universal free medical care to its citizens, and indeed the fact that medicine is so expensive and Jayne has to help out his family because "Matty has the Damp-Lung" would indicate that in reality the Alliance is certainly not providing socialised healthcare to its people. At least to that extent the Alliance is small-government.

The Alliance certainly interferes with free-trade which means it is not a totally hands off government but that just indicates merchantalist capitalism not a particularly left-wing, or necessarily hard-right government.

Quote:

Originally posted by gtman8503:

I assume that the Alliance is a Socialist-Fascist Police State, and the "Independent" movement was made up primarily of conservative-liberterians. This also seems to make sense based on what we've seen of the rural culture of the Rim planets as opposed to the metropolitan Central planets



I see the Independent movement as being more geographical in nature than political. They are worlds not yet under the Core (it was was the war to unite not re-unite the planets) who wish to stay that way. That does not imply they are conservative-libertarians. Some worlds could have just as easily been ardant left-wingers who find the idea of aristocracy and slavery abhorrant.

Quote:

Originally posted by gtman8503:

"Blue Sun" also fits into this idea because large monopolies tend to be the result of government overregulation instead of rampant capitalism, as someone argued above.



Monopolies can form in various ways. One form of "good" government intervention is breaking them.

Quote:

Originally posted by gtman8503:

As for that FOX News reference above, as a conservative, I'd just like to say that FOX is the news source of the Independents. CNN, MSNBC, PBS, ABC, NBC, CBS, NYTIMES, LATIMES, REUTERS, BBC, etc. ,etc. all voice the opinions of Blue Sun and the Great and Mighty Alliance (aka, UN).



Fox News is clearly the voice of the Alliance. The Independents would much rather trust the BBC

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
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Sunday, June 12, 2005 3:33 AM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:
... Fox News is clearly the voice of the Alliance. The Independents would much rather trust the BBC ...

Perhaps the funding for the BBC is different over the border. (Seagulls weren't relegated!)
IMHO: Fox News is the voice of Blue Sun. The BBC is funded by the Government, directly in the case of the World Service, by way of a Government determined licence-fee for TV reception in the case of internal services. Independents trust lugradio

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Sunday, June 12, 2005 3:39 AM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
Perhaps the funding for the BBC is different over the border. (Seagulls weren't relegated!)
IMHO:
Fox News is the voice of Blue Sun. The BBC is funded by the Government, directly in the case of the World Service, by way of a Governmant determined licence-fee for TV reception in the case of internal services.



O/T but although the BBC may be government funded it certainly isn't the voice of the government in the traditions of state-controlled media.

If it was then it wouldn't have suffered so many complaints about it by the various administrations of the day. Back in the 1980's the Tories often called it the "Bolshevik Broadcasting Corporation" but it seems to annoy the heck out of Labour (and "New Labour") governments too


...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Sunday, June 12, 2005 3:48 AM

GTMAN8503


Quote:

In addition there is no evidence that the Alliance provides universal free medical care to its citizens, and indeed the fact that medicine is so expensive and Jayne has to help out his family because "Matty has the Damp-Lung" would indicate that in reality the Alliance is certainly not providing socialised healthcare to its people. At least to that extent the Alliance is small-government.



It doesn't have to be socialized medicine. It could be some sort of social program like medicare or medicaid (Which I find equally distateful). Also, I assumed that Jayne's family lives out on the rim, where the Alliance hasn't spread yet and they don't have all the conveniences (inconveniences) that the Alliance provieds. Continuing with the idea that Jayne's family lives out on the rim, we've seen many instances where the Alliance simply doesn't care about those people. It's much like the South during Reconstruction, in that the North really didn't care about the well-being of people down there. We just seem to have different opinions of "Big Government". IMO, Social Security, Medicare, Welfare, etc., etc., are "Big Government" programs that border on socialism that we should get rid of. Any government program that takes independence away from it's citizens and puts it into the hands of bureaucrats is, imo, socialist. And, as socialism always does, it leads to a slave state where the people are dependent on the government.

Anyways, it doesn't really matter. Actually, I posted something else about why it doesn't matter. The Alliance is so loosly defined in the show that you can create your own nightmare-vision of government and superimpose it on there. Everyone's right.

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Sunday, June 12, 2005 4:12 AM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by gtman8503:
It doesn't have to be socialized medicine. It could be some sort of social program like medicare or medicaid (Which I find equally distateful).



Funny but I find US Medicare and Medicaid distasteful too but mainly because it's so damn expensive and inefficient. A fully socialised healthcare system providing universal free healthcare would work much better.

I'm really more of a technocrat than an ideologue on healthcare though. The state controlled healthcare in Western Europe for example just provides wider coverage for less money.

Quote:

Originally posted by gtman8503:

Also, I assumed that Jayne's family lives out on the rim, where the Alliance hasn't spread yet and they don't have all the conveniences (inconveniences) that the Alliance provieds.



But a monolithic socialist state would make sure to look after the people regardless of where they are. The Alliance in Firefly smacks more of, at best, benign neglect.

Quote:

Originally posted by gtman8503:

We just seem to have different opinions of "Big Government". IMO, Social Security, Medicare, Welfare, etc., etc., are "Big Government" programs that border on socialism that we should get rid of. Any government program that takes independence away from it's citizens and puts it into the hands of bureaucrats is, imo, socialist. And, as socialism always does, it leads to a slave state where the people are dependent on the government.



Well there are varying degrees of socialism and the Social Democracy practiced in many nations today is certainly a long way from producing a slave state but in any case like I said I'm a technocrat. If something works better in the private sector then privatise it, if the state can run something better then nationalise it.

Lots of people from the left believe the state should intervene on principle whereas libertarians believe that the state should be practically non-existant, again just on principle. Looking at it dispassionately though if you look at the numbers, socialised healthcare does seem to offer the highest number of people receiving medical care for the least money. Conversely experiments in nationalised industries (such as the automotive company British Leyland here in the UK) were an unmitigated disaster.

A technocrat such as myself would have the Government run the hospitals and private enterprise build the cars. It just seems to work better that way.

Heck I'm just after value for money because whether it's the government taking it in taxes or a company taking it through high prices it's still just money I can't spend on something else.

From my perspective the Alliance seems to be big government where it's bad and small government where that's bad.

In short Alliance = Bad




...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Sunday, June 12, 2005 4:50 AM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:
... in the traditions of state-controlled media...

It's not a case of the DG being carpeted by the Home Secretary, but the forces of reaction put Birt in place and ousted Dyke, regardless of their political colour. I'm suggesting that the Government in Firefly would be just as pervasive on the core worlds, while the border planets could be treated like Diego Garcia
http://www.theargus.co.uk/the_argus/archive/2003/07/15/NEWS105ZM.html

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Sunday, June 12, 2005 5:07 AM

GTMAN8503


Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:


In short Alliance = Bad





Yep, we agree!




Your Heaven looks just like my Hell
--Uncle Tupelo, Still Feel Gone, Cold Shoulder

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Sunday, June 12, 2005 6:07 AM

ASTRAGYNIA


Quote:

Originally posted by gtman8503:
I've always viewed the Alliance in terms of American history, particularly the Civil War and Western expansion…


Sorry, I should have been clearer - I think of that one as a given. The extreme differences in technology and lifestyle between Core/Rim, though, strongly suggest 1st World/3rd World to me, as well as 1860s-1890s USA.

Quote:

Originally posted by gtman8503:
The nature of the Alliance doesn't matter to the overall story. To quote Jeff Tweedy, "Your Heaven looks just like my Hell." The Alliance's vague definition keeps people from forcing their political beliefs onto anyone else, and allows the show to transcend politics.


We don't really know if the Alliance was always going to be vague, or if we would have learned much more about it in seasons 2,3,4 etc. However, whichever way it might lean - left or right, or some combination of these - it would probably not be anybody's ideal government. It's been made very clear that the Alliance has no practice of equal human rights - they treat people completely differently depending on whether they're Core or Rim, have an ident card like Book's or not, and probably whether they're rich or poor (Simon's father getting him out of jail so relatively easily). (We don't even know that Mal and crew are even considered citizens; citizenship could be an elite privilege, like in the Roman Empire). Equality and freedom are primary values of both liberals and conservatives in the world today. We just think of them differently. To take your example of health care in US politics, conservatives see any kind of government involvement as a breach of freedoms because of the higher taxes involved and the information that is needed. Liberals see the freedom of the poor to die because they can't afford treatment as no freedom at all, and think society has a responsibility to make sure that doesn't happen and that the best way for society as a whole to do something is through government.

Quote:

"Blue Sun" also fits into this idea because large monopolies tend to be the result of government overregulation instead of rampant capitalism, as someone argued above.

Monopolies can be either government-instituted OR a company buying up/pushing out all its competitors or back-room deals between companies to stay out of eachother's way in certain areas, etc. By the way, do we even know that Blue Sun is actually a monopoly?

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Monday, September 5, 2005 2:04 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Quote:

Originally posted by gtman8503:
Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:


In short Alliance = Bad





Yep, we agree!




Your Heaven looks just like my Hell
--Uncle Tupelo, Still Feel Gone, Cold Shoulder



that explains it

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 4:27 AM

ENGINEANGEL


ha ha ha. LOL. that's hi-larious. and yet so true. bad fox.

Quote:


The true face of the Alliance...



Sorry, could not resist.


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Tuesday, November 1, 2005 6:26 PM

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS


Quote:

Originally posted by Astragynia:
It's been made very clear that the Alliance has no practice of equal human rights - they treat people completely differently depending on whether they're Core or Rim, have an ident card like Book's or not, and probably whether they're rich or poor (Simon's father getting him out of jail so relatively easily). (We don't even know that Mal and crew are even considered citizens; citizenship could be an elite privilege, like in the Roman Empire). Equality and freedom are primary values of both liberals and conservatives in the world today.



-We don't know if there are slaves on Core planets, given that we have only seen them on Rim worlds, but it does look very probable, given that they are part of Persephone, a relatively civilized world. Of course, we may be in danger of placing too much stock in Persephone as pseudo-core --all we really know is that the planet has been very successful.
Now, while the Alliance may very well be extremely unequal (see Book's ID card), there seems to be a certain expectation for them to. "I'm sure they'll rush out here and see that these tax payers are alright." I know, he's being sarcastic, but he is criticizing them for not doing so ...implying that they are supposed to, maybe?
As far as I can remember, we know of no nobility outside Persephone. While there are certain class differences apparent on the ship, they do not seem codified. Money is the only definite power. Kaylee herself against Jayne's accusations of classism by pointing out that Simon was no longer actually rich. Not being rich does not make one not a lord, etc., all it does is make you not rich. There is a clear class difference, but I don't think an explicit hierarchy exists. The Alliance does provide public education, which is generally a sign of democracy (even one actually run by the rich, such as the turn of the century US).

Quote:


By the way, do we even know that Blue Sun is actually a monopoly?



Well, it certainly appears to be. It is everywhere, and any competitor strong enough to survive would surely be itself prevalent enough for us to have noticed.

---------------------------------------------------
Early: Where'd she go?

Simon: I can't keep track of her when she's NOT incorporeally possessing a spaceship, don't look at me --

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Tuesday, November 1, 2005 6:58 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


I think that the Anglo-Sino alliance existed when they left the earth that was, that's why they all settled in the same solar system, that's why everyone speaks both Chinese and English. However, a schism took place during the journey between the earth that was and the new worlds. It took several generations for them to get from the earth that was to the new earths, it is highly probable that during this time people began developing loyalties to the societies within their own ships, loyalties which became the foundation for brand new nations and divided the old alliance. Those who were still loyal to the old alliance, or at least the idea of the old alliance, stayed on the core worlds while those who had became more loyal to the societies created within their ships moved to the boarder worlds. The core worlds decided to form a new Alliance and the boarder worlds became the Independents.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Friday, November 4, 2005 1:50 PM

FLETCH2


I think they settled the same solar system because that was the only one they could get to. Unless the 'Verse has some whiz bang warp drive style tech we're just not seeing just getting to stars in our neighbourhood would take them generations. It could be that there was only one practical system in range.

I'm thinking that the Alliance is a relatively new event that happened after they got here. We see that some worlds are primarily chinese and some primarily western. If they were together when they left why not settle together when they got there? Besides the rivalry to get out there and grab real estate for their people may have been what drove the thing in the first place. We haven't come nearly as far cooperating in space as racing each other.

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Saturday, November 5, 2005 4:49 AM

THIEFJEHAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Fletch2:
I think they settled the same solar system because that was the only one they could get to. Unless the 'Verse has some whiz bang warp drive style tech we're just not seeing just getting to stars in our neighbourhood would take them generations. It could be that there was only one practical system in range.



You don't need warp drive to get to neighboring stars. In the Firefly future humanity has fusion drive technology. That is to say "A semi-controlled nuke explosion out the back of a starship to push it forward". Not to be confused with controlled fusion (fusion power reactor) or uncontrolled fusion (Hydrogen Bomb)

In Firefly, humanity merged into one nation and loaded up every human who could afford to get off the overcrowed, polluted, dying Earth. Once in space in several world ships, they took off for a nearby star that deep space telescopes had identified as having dozens of earth like worlds. The mode of travel was simple fusion propulsion by continuing to burn the engines until the ships approaced light speed. If you are concerned about Einstin's relativity equation...don't be. The trip to the new star system took little time from the vantage point of the travellers. Example: If the star was 300 light years from Earth, the people left behind saw the arrival of the travellers 300 years later while it was a short trip for those leaving. So the short of it is, those left behind were left to die. Or perhaps there are still ppl on the earth, who knows?

Quote:


I'm thinking that the Alliance is a relatively new event that happened after they got here. We see that some worlds are primarily chinese and some primarily western. If they were together when they left why not settle together when they got there?



I'm not sure that's the case. I think the unification of humanity took place on earth when the nations realized what a massive undertaking building world ships would be. Humans have shown throughout history a knack for working together when trying to survive. It's when the urgency is over that greed and competition sets in.

I think that the people who arrived in the new star system were the fledgling Alliance of China and the USA. In order to maintain cultural identities China settled Sihnon and The US settled Londinum, but overall the government that ruled over everyone was the Alliance.

Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 10:58 PM

SHINYONE


the Alliance has been represented by the giant space ships that tower like a central business district. Those in charge seem to be military. The "sky - scraper" ship seemed to indicate an oppressive administration, and Mal mentioned in ep. 1 that they may have been scanned and individually identified. I get the sense of a giant intelligence gathering machine. the independants seem to stand for both freedom and individuality. The alliance for designed social construction. This was the underlying premiss of the film SERENITY as Miranda was proof of how far the Alliance will go to achieve "perfect" society.

Serenity (film) starts with an Alliance operative, he has a firm belief in "the greater good" he works to achieve. Which pin-points a strong ideology underlying the Alliance's aims and projects. The Alliance does not just rule and regulate it is seeking to create a "new order" that means a new type of human. Has anyone read "drinking sapphire wine" by Tanith Lee, I can see parallels in this vision of a perfectly controlled world, where even death has been conquered"

Miranda aimed to eliminate all violent characteristics in the population. How does this aim compare with the violent, anarchistic society on the outer rim? Also the existence of "business magnates" like Nischler (is that correct? from Train Job, and War Stories. Perhaps the Alliances solution to the outer moons anarchy is drugs rather than actual social engineering and policing.

I think Joss was dumbing down the complexities of the Alliance when he compared it to America.

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