FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Firefly Wars , battle of Serenity - What Period is it like ?

POSTED BY: FARSCAPEPKWARS
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 10:46
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Sunday, January 9, 2005 3:03 PM

FARSCAPEPKWARS


Ok, we get a few descriptions and hints about the Big War in Firefly but what Time or Historical War do you think this is similar to ?
There are also some nice footage of flashbacks in the show, such as Zoe and Mal protecting their friend in 'The Message' and Mal n Zoe fighting the Alliance in the first episode, we also get many other clues about the war, there is talk on the Alliance and a little bit more in the DVD extras. So from what you've all watched what war do you think its like.

World War One ? The American Revolutionary Period aprox 1781, the Spanish Civil War ? The German Wars of Unification ? The American Civil War ? The Irish war against the British Empire ? The US in Vietnam ? Crimean war , Napoleonic Wars, The USA Conflict in Kosovo the Balkans? Russian Civil War....

...what war is it similar to ?

Napoleon war



Kosovo war


Rebels and Redcoats


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Sunday, January 9, 2005 3:35 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


kind of hard to say, but it seems similar to many

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 4:17 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


More of a combination of the American Revolutionary War and Civil War is the impression I got.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 4:38 PM

RAT


The War Between the States!(civil war)

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 5:38 PM

MONTANAGIRL


Quote:

Originally posted by Rat:
The War Between the States!(civil war)



Don't you mean the War of Northern Aggression?
(My brother went to college in Carolina and that's how it was referred to by the guys in his frat.) And yes, I concur with reference to the above question.

Packer fans welcome.
All others tolerated.

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 6:16 PM

RAT


The War Between the States,
The War of Northern Aggression,

It's all Good!!

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 6:29 PM

TIGER


The war in the Firefly verse is definitely most similar to the American civil war, with two important differences:

1. It doesn't appear that slavery is unique to one side or the other in the conflict, nor that it had anything to do with the war.

2. In Firefly, the purpose of the war was to forcibly create an Alliance that didn't exist before, whereas the purpose of the ACW was to forcibly preserve a union that already existed.

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 6:37 PM

DIRTYBROWNCOAT


I seem to remember Joss mentioning Vietnam at some point.

Simon: You...you came for us.
Mal: You're on my crew.
Simon: Right. I guess I just didn't...you don't even like me.
Mal: You're on my crew. Why we still talking about this?

-Safe

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 6:43 PM

TIGER


Joss has said that Firefly was partially inspired by the civil war historical novel "Killer Angels". A great read, and you can see many similarities between the poor bastards that lost the war in both.

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 8:39 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


No doubt we have two very strong influences on the War-topic, the manner, the dress, weaponary on the worlds and guns,
one War being the American war of Independence and the other the US civil war

However their is also something that just kinda smells of colonialism, like when the Europeans went looking for land or when the British went to Australia and the Native Americans or Aboriginal people got a really bad deal. The dress, and settings are very good on the show, it may be somewhat inspired from other areas yet the war, the manner of battle, and weapons seem to point to the US civil War.

http://www.overlandtooz.com/diary-australia-topend.htm
http://www.mavericks.net.au/

There may of course be other inspirations such the Vietnam battles, or others like when the French Empire tried to expand into other areas such as N.Africa and Indo-China, or when the Russian-Soviets set up their USSR Empire. The Border world's or Independant world might be places like Latvia, Georgia, Chechnya, Taliban's Afghanistan ( which got support from the USA ), Estonia or Siberia. Except this time the French-Empire or the Soviet Iron Curtain remained
all other nations and places fell under the one Rulership.....and this time there was no USA to put pressure on the Soviets. In the Core of this Empire the folks in Moscow are very rich and looked after, but out on the borders near Afghanistan and Chechnya...it seems more like the Reavers are at work here.

http://encarta.msn.com/media_461540279_761553017_-1_1/Union_of_Soviet_
Socialist_Republics.html


http://www.wwnorton.com/college/history/ralph/resource/sovietun.htm

Unlike the Fall of the Russian Soviet Empire, this time the Union remained and the independants were said to be crushed

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Monday, January 10, 2005 4:52 AM

GWEK


The era "Firefly" is set in is clearly and obviously modeled after the Civil War. Whedon has stated in multiple places that it evokes the Civil War (and that the Reapers evoke the Indians... or at least the perception of the Indians at that time). Anyone who's ever seen a Western or managed to stay awake during American history class shouldn't need to ask about this.

While there are echoes of other eras, it makes me very sad for the American education system that there are folks who might not realize this.

Sorry if that's a little harsh, but that's my opinion.

Oh, by the way, one message mentioned the war was an effort to create an Alliance that had not previously existed. I don't think this is true, is it? I thought the Alliance existed and was becoming increasingly oppressive and unwilling to respond to the "little people" (Whedon's way of making the "North" the bad guys this time around).


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Monday, January 10, 2005 6:03 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Joss has mentioned that he was influenced by Michael Sharra's The Killer Angels, a great novel about the Battle of Gettysburg.

Civil War really doesn't apply by the way as by definition a civil war is two or more factions of the same country fighting for control of the same government. This of course is not the case in the War for Southern Independence as the South was attempting to break away from the Union.

The comparisons between the Battle of Serenity Valley and the Battle of Gettysburg are few, but they are there:

- one faction seeking independence, the other an oppressive government not willing to let go of the citizens who want to be free.

- this particular battle is pivotal, and the "high water mark" of the losing faction.

- the fighting is brutal for both sides.



__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Meet Up:
http://firefly.meetup.com/9/boards/


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Monday, January 10, 2005 7:53 AM

HARDWARE


Quote:

Originally posted by Tiger:
The war in the Firefly verse is definitely most similar to the American civil war, with two important differences:

1. It doesn't appear that slavery is unique to one side or the other in the conflict, nor that it had anything to do with the war.

2. In Firefly, the purpose of the war was to forcibly create an Alliance that didn't exist before, whereas the purpose of the ACW was to forcibly preserve a union that already existed.



I am not trying to step on toes or start a debate here, but after reading this I needed to chime in as a military historian.

The Confederate states seceded over an issue of state's rights versus Federal rights. Thus the American Civil War was fought to enforce Federal supremacy and preserve the union. Shelby Foote and Ken Burns both quote contemporary accounts that show the common useage in the vernacular North and South as "the United States are" prior to the war and "the United States is" after the war. This illustrates the perception that prior to the war people perceived their country as Virginia, New York, etc. and their country belonged to a coallition of other countries.

The documentable fact is that Lincoln turned the war into a war about slavery to generate renewed interest in prosecuting and driving the Confederate states back into the union. In reality turning the war into a war over slavery caused draft riots and caused desertions in the Union army. Sad as it is to say, Northerners were all for fighting to preserve the union, right or wrong, but they cared not a damn to fight for the freedom of slaves.

Now, since we know the Independents were fighting to keep from being forced into the Alliance I have to say it looks the motivations resemble the American Civil War. As for how it was fought, looks more like World War 2 or possibly Korea to me, based on the brief battle scenes in Serenity and The Message.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

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Monday, January 10, 2005 8:13 AM

TIGER


Quote:


I am not trying to step on toes or start a debate here, but after reading this I needed to chime in as a military historian.

I'm not sure if you thought you would be disagreeing with me, but you're not. The civil war was fought to preserve the union, but an important reason the southern states wanted to secede was slavery (although it wasn't the only reason by far).

My comparison with the war in Firelfy was meant to demonstrate that as far as we know, slavery exists in the verse, but there's no indication that it had any part to play in the war.

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Monday, January 10, 2005 8:28 AM

EMBERS


Quote:

Originally posted by GWEK:
The era "Firefly" is set in is clearly and obviously modeled after the Civil War.

it makes me very sad for the American education system that there are folks who might not realize this.



actually I think that you guys are all getting yourselves (and Joss) very locked into one very small box when it fact he has tried to keep the imagery more universal than that.

personally I thought that the 'foxhole' story (about the apples) was much more evocative of WWI
when troops from either side were stuck in foxholes near one another for months on end.

I feel that Joss is enough of an artist to create a more inclusive and interesting vision than just a parallel to the history of one nation…
It isn’t like he doesn’t know that his show will be watched world wide.


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Monday, January 10, 2005 8:36 AM

TIGER


Quote:

Originally posted by GWEK:
Oh, by the way, one message mentioned the war was an effort to create an Alliance that had not previously existed. I don't think this is true, is it?

When they aired on television, Mal's monologue before the episodes says "The central planets, them that formed the alliance, waged war to bring everyone under their rule..." That's a good indication to me they forcibly annexed the other worlds in the verse that were previously independent.

I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe the alliance was, at one time, a voluntary membership that became oppressive over time, as was the case with the union in the american civil war/war of northern aggression/war for southern independence.

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Monday, January 10, 2005 8:50 AM

TIGER


Quote:

actually I think that you guys are all getting yourselves (and Joss) very locked into one very small box when it fact he has tried to keep the imagery more universal than that.
That's a good point. I would hate to see Joss restrict his inspirarion to the events or issues of one particular era.

I think it's evident that he was thinking of the american civil war when he was creating the verse, but I'm sure he'd never let himself get creatively trapped by it.

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Monday, January 10, 2005 3:04 PM

DIRTYBROWNCOAT


Quote:

- one faction seeking independence, the other an oppressive government not willing to let go of the citizens who want to be free.


Just want to mention, that watching all but the final three episodes on the DVD, I've gathered that the Alliance wasn't in power until they won the war. The Independence, as it was called, wasn't a faction of people who wanted to break free of the Alliance, it was the Alliance that was moving in on the Independence, trying to bring all the central planets under one rule.

Just how I interpreted it.

Simon: You...you came for us.
Mal: You're on my crew.
Simon: Right. I guess I just didn't...you don't even like me.
Mal: You're on my crew. Why we still talking about this?

-Safe

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 3:53 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by DirtyBrowncoat:
Just want to mention, that watching all but the final three episodes on the DVD, I've gathered that the Alliance wasn't in power until they won the war. The Independence, as it was called, wasn't a faction of people who wanted to break free of the Alliance, it was the Alliance that was moving in on the Independence, trying to bring all the central planets under one rule.

Just how I interpreted it.




Odd. That is not the impression I got at all.

From what we have seen and read, the Alliance seems to have originated on Earth that was and that same government was behind the exodus to the stars when Earth became all but uninhabitable. Of course when they set up the Core worlds the Alliance is firmly in control.

What I surmised from the series is that the worlds out on the Rim got tired of paying taxes to a government back in the Core that did very little to improve their lot in life or the quality of said life. They opted for self rule and a break from the Alliance (sounds a bit like the Colonies break w/ England, no?). When the Alliance caught wind of this movement for independence, they were quick to send in troops, hence the war.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Meet Up:
http://firefly.meetup.com/9/boards/


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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 4:53 AM

FREMDFIRMA


There's also, imop - just a hint of flavor similar to the attempted annexation of ireland by the british.

The same way that folk kept moving further and further north to get out of the british sphere of influance comes to mind every time Mal speaks up about 'getting further out' to get away from the influance of the alliance.

Just my 2 cents,
-F

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 7:13 PM

FARSCAPEPKWARS


Quote:

Originally posted by DirtyBrowncoat:
Quote:

- one faction seeking independence, the other an oppressive government not willing to let go of the citizens who want to be free.


Just want to mention, that watching all but the final three episodes on the DVD, I've gathered that the Alliance wasn't in power until they won the war. The Independence, as it was called, wasn't a faction of people who wanted to break free of the Alliance, it was the Alliance that was moving in on the Independence, trying to bring all the central planets under one rule.

Just how I interpreted it.

Simon: You...you came for us.
Mal: You're on my crew.
Simon: Right. I guess I just didn't...you don't even like me.
Mal: You're on my crew. Why we still talking about this?

-Safe



Indeed, it hard to compare it with a period of time from Earth or earth-that-was inspiration from the USA's civil war and the battle of independence against British rule plays a part. The battle with Confederate southern states and the forming of a coallition, we see it is clearly and obviously modeled after this time and the USA's rebelion against the British Empire.
But as clearly stated by others there may be other key insprations such as other periods and wars around the world, Totalitarian rulerships, dicator regimes, the Korean War, the British Empire or Vietnam, and perhaps WW2 and the Soveits. On this ocassion the Rebels were crushed so it may remind us of a period of Russian rulership like when Soviet tanks went into Hungary in 1956 during the Hungarian uprising, 2,500 Russian tanks put down the locals who were trying to get away from the USSR, many executions followed. There are perhaps two periods in the wars of Serenity, the first battles and initals war which remind us of the US civil war or the USA's
battle against the Empire and then the later effects which might remind us of people who ruled in totalitarian regimes, other Empires or the soviet Alliance or perhaps other rulers and dictators around the globe in our history.

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Sunday, January 16, 2005 11:48 AM

OLDFAN45


The Killer Angels is an inspiration, not a straitjacket...and Serenity Valley doesn't seem to me like Gettysburg but instead the Battle of the Wilderness. The whole Soviet Empire/Hungary comparo falls well on my ears. Any idea how far removed we are from Earth-that-was when that battle happens? I can't recall ever wonedring that before now. Embarrassing.

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Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:01 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Quote:

Originally posted by oldfan45:
The Killer Angels is an inspiration, not a straitjacket...and Serenity Valley doesn't seem to me like Gettysburg but instead the Battle of the Wilderness. The whole Soviet Empire/Hungary comparo falls well on my ears. Any idea how far removed we are from Earth-that-was when that battle happens? I can't recall ever wonedring that before now. Embarrassing.



good point there, when did Earth that was happen ?

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Thursday, January 20, 2005 11:25 AM

OLDFAN45


Okay, I never went and looked for the info before, and I should have. We're only 500 years in the future, which I now have firmly committed to memory.

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Tuesday, January 25, 2005 9:28 PM

YT

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same


Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Quote:

Originally posted by DirtyBrowncoat:
Just want to mention, that watching all but the final three episodes on the DVD, I've gathered that the Alliance wasn't in power until they won the war. The Independence, as it was called, wasn't a faction of people who wanted to break free of the Alliance, it was the Alliance that was moving in on the Independence, trying to bring all the central planets under one rule.

Just how I interpreted it.




Odd. That is not the impression I got at all.

From what we have seen and read, the Alliance seems to have originated on Earth that was and that same government was behind the exodus to the stars when Earth became all but uninhabitable. Of course when they set up the Core worlds the Alliance is firmly in control.

What I surmised from the series is that the worlds out on the Rim got tired of paying taxes to a government back in the Core that did very little to improve their lot in life or the quality of said life. They opted for self rule and a break from the Alliance (sounds a bit like the Colonies break w/ England, no?). When the Alliance caught wind of this movement for independence, they were quick to send in troops, hence the war.


These may both be correct. Just gimme a sec:

Before the war, I think the Alliance had very little impact on the outer planets, beyond say a permanent recruiting drive for the high-risk job of tax collector. Still it seems not unreasonable that the situation may be analogous to that of the United States in the mid-nineteenth century AD, or Europe @the turn of the millenium:
A bunch of bureaucrats & professional politicians in Washington DC, or Paris & Bruxelles, think they're in charge of every state under their purview and all the people therein,
while many (if not most) of those people believe themselves citizens of separate sovereign states who have ageed to abide by the rules of a federation, to secure to themselves (& perhaps their posterity) the fruits of their labour, safe & convenient travel, more profitable trade, etc and will continue to do so as long as the government of their sovereign state agrees it is to their net benefit.

To make a short story short (eliminating the long preamble, above), I think the Independents saw it DirtyBrowncoat's way, whereas the Alliance view was a more flattering to them (20th century US gov't re 19th century US Federal) version of BrownCoat1's.

Keep the Shiny Side Up

Wutzon: String Cheese Incident, "Rollover", from "Outside Inside"

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Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:49 PM

YT

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same


Quote:

Originally posted by Tiger:
The war in the Firefly verse is definitely most similar to the American civil war, with two important differences:

1. It doesn't appear that slavery is unique to one side or the other in the conflict,


This is not a difference; there was slavery in the Union throughout the war. The slaves in the North were freed later than those in the South.

Keep the Shiny Side Up

Wutzon: Allman Bro's, "Bougaivillea" & "Revival", from "Dreams"

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Friday, February 11, 2005 5:03 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by YT:
This is not a difference; there was slavery in the Union throughout the war. The slaves in the North were freed later than those in the South.




Very true YT, and a little known fact since it is conspicuously absent from history books in schools today.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Meet Up:
http://firefly.meetup.com/9/boards/


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Friday, February 11, 2005 7:15 AM

THIEFJEHAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Tiger:

My comparison with the war in Firelfy was meant to demonstrate that as far as we know, slavery exists in the verse, but there's no indication that it had any part to play in the war.



Evidence suggests that slavery, while not being a central issue in the war of unification, played a small role nonetheless. We know that slavers pick up folk on rim worlds and drop them in terraforming crews. Also terraforming crews have a "prodigious death rate" per the conversation with the slaver during the pool game.

Joss is a big fan of certain storytelling devices, one being the juxtaposition. During the Civil War, slavery was one of many many issues leading to agression, with the condederate states supporting it and the Union opposing. During the war for the unification of the Anglo-Signo Alliance I found it interesting that it's plausible that the roles were reversed with the Independance(condeferates) fighting for personal freedoms and the Alliance(Union) fighting to impose it's will on the rim worlds. Honestly, if I was a slaver in this future I'd snatch folk from rim worlds. Thievery of humanity in the core would surely not go unpunished. I also heard a rumor that the line "Take my love" at the start of the theme is Mal lamenting the slavery imposed on a teenage wife/lover who was taken prior to the war during Mal's youth and someone he never saw again. This is, of course, only a speculation.

I don't believe the unification was was fought over slavery. I believe it was fought over oppression, of which slavery was a variable.

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Friday, February 11, 2005 7:24 AM

REAVERMADNESS


It has to be the War of Northern Aggression given the state of the parallels in the show.

1) People say "folks" and a lot of American western and southern slang and accents.

2) The "western feel" of the show corrosponds to the period after the War of Northern Aggression. This includes the majority of the weapons used and the town settings.

3) The attitude of the purple bellies are the same as that of the yankess after the war.

My two cents are up.


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Friday, February 11, 2005 8:50 AM

THIEFJEHAT


Quote:

Originally posted by ReaverMadness:
It has to be the War of Northern Aggression




Reavermadness, you must be south of the mason-dixon. Here in Indiana folks call it the civil war but when I visit friends in Virgina they always correct me.

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Friday, February 11, 2005 10:11 AM

REAVERMADNESS


Quote:

Originally posted by thiefjehat:
Quote:

Originally posted by ReaverMadness:
It has to be the War of Northern Aggression




Reavermadness, you must be south of the mason-dixon. Here in Indiana folks call it the civil war but when I visit friends in Virgina they always correct me.



Born and raised. I can even name all my
ancestors (direct and some collateral) who fought in the war. If need be I could even mention a few who fought on the yankee side. (Don't worry, they weren't turn coats. They were just born up there.)
I've always told people the I was lucky. I had some ancestors who fought on the the right side and some who fought on the winning side of that war.

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Friday, February 11, 2005 10:29 AM

HOTPOINT


Well in military terms Du Khang seemed more like Stalingrad than the battles of the Napoleonic or American Civil Wars so the parallel falls apart at that point.

Also we know that civilians were apparently targeted deliberately, and by biochemical warfare no less, so again this is more akin to the viciousness of the fighting on the Eastern Front in WWII. Even during Shermans march to the sea very few civilians were deliberately killed, although much property was destroyed, so the war in Firefly just seems a lot nastier than the ACW to me.

My personal model of the war is actually more akin to the rise of the British in India with the change from informal business ambitions (with the East India Company) to formal Empire.



...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Friday, February 11, 2005 11:47 AM

THIEFJEHAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:
Even during Shermans march to the sea very few civilians were deliberately killed, although much property was destroyed



I had heard that "Burn the Land and Boil the Sea" was a reference to Shermans March. In this case, the Alliance had clearly won the Unification War and so proceeded to pillage and burn certain rim worlds to humiliate and degrade the Independance. Also such an act further destroyed certain infrastructures vital to waging another war.

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Friday, February 11, 2005 12:49 PM

REAVERMADNESS


Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:
Well in military terms Du Khang seemed more like Stalingrad than the battles of the Napoleonic or American Civil Wars so the parallel falls apart at that point.

Also we know that civilians were apparently targeted deliberately, and by biochemical warfare no less, so again this is more akin to the viciousness of the fighting on the Eastern Front in WWII. Even during Shermans march to the sea very few civilians were deliberately killed, although much property was destroyed, so the war in Firefly just seems a lot nastier than the ACW to me.



Tell me you're joking. Here is one of the many things you should look up before making a statement like that.

"The March to the Sea, the Civil War's most destructive campaign against a civilian population, began in Atlanta on November 15, 1864, and concluded in Savannah on December 21, 1864. General William T. Sherman abandoned his supply line and marched across Georgia to the Atlantic Ocean to prove to the Confederate population that its government could not protect the people from invaders." from the www.georgiaencyclopedia.org.

or perhaps

"In 1862 Sherman was having difficulty subduing Confederate sharpshooters
who were harassing federal gunboats on the Mississippi River near Memphis.
He then adopted the theory of "collective responsibility" to "justify"
attacking innocent civilians in retaliation for such attacks. He burned the
entire town of Randolph, Tennessee, to the ground. He also began taking
civilian hostages and either trading them for federal prisoners of war or
executing them." a quote from Thomas J. DiLorenzo who is a professor of economics at Loyola
College in Maryland.

There's more. Google it yourself and read on.

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Friday, February 11, 2005 1:35 PM

HOTPOINT


How many civilians were verifiably killed by Sherman because most of what I read indicated that whilst property damage was extensive civilian fatalities weren't

Quote:


Sherman cut a terrible path of destruction. Sherman's foragers, called bummers, were authorized to take whatever was necessary to fuel his own army and cripple the Rebel army, but not to indiscriminately burn houses or harm civilians. (Such a campaign invariably slips out of control, however, and some of Sherman's bummers exceeded their orders while their officers turned a blind eye.) Meanwhile, Grant sent Phil Sheridan to Virginia's Shenandoah Valley with orders to finish the job started by David Hunter: defeat Jubal Early and destroy Confederate farms providing food and forage for Lee's army. Like Sherman's fabled March to the Sea, Sheridan's Shenandoah campaign caused very few civilian deaths.



http://www.virginiawestern.edu/vwhansd/HIS269/myths2.html#Sherman_marc
h




...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Wednesday, February 16, 2005 10:46 AM

REAVERMADNESS


"How many civilians were verifiably killed by Sherman..."

I've been looking. Trying to find the most "verifiable" numbers I can get. I'll post when I can find something rock solid.

When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not screaming and yelling like everyone else in the car he was driving.

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Wednesday, February 16, 2005 10:46 AM

REAVERMADNESS


"How many civilians were verifiably killed by Sherman..."

I've been looking. Trying to find the most "verifiable" numbers I can get. I'll post when I can find something rock solid.

When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not screaming and yelling like everyone else in the car he was driving.

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