OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

Torchwood/ Doctor Who; Derivative much?

POSTED BY: SPACEANJL
UPDATED: Sunday, April 20, 2008 22:31
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VIEWED: 3278
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Tuesday, February 19, 2008 2:17 AM

SPACEANJL


Is it just me, or does the whole vibe coming offa these shows smell kinda Joss-like to you guys? Not the full-on Joss, just...Joss-ish.

I mean...in S2/Dr W, a whole planet that just laid down and went to sleep under the influence of 'Bliss'? Brown coats and snappy banter. (Well, would-be snappy banter - it really took off in Torchwood2, with His Spikeness.) There are very definitely Browncoats involved somewhere in that process. Warping minds and infiltrating themselves.


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Tuesday, February 19, 2008 4:43 AM

DUG


Infiltrating themselves?

they allow so much MORE on british tv.....

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Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:06 AM

SIMONWHO


The show runner behind both of them (Russell T. Davies) has said he's a fan of Buffy and Firefly. However, given that there was a good 30 years worth of Doctor Who produced before Buffy was even a failed movie, most of the central ideas in Who are long established.

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Tuesday, February 19, 2008 10:42 PM

SPACEANJL


I've seen most of the old episodes (Tom Baker was my Doctor!) I was really just remarking on the influence pervading the new writing. But I suppose you could equally say, no X-files, no Torchwood.

Granted, there are only so many original storylines in the world, so everything comes from something. It's just that occasionally some programmes reveal their sources a bit more blatantly. I think if you call it a homage, you don't get sued.

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Saturday, February 23, 2008 2:08 PM

BLACKADDER7


More music video goodness... this one is Doctor Who... (well, it's mostly Rose, but still...)



-------------------------------------------------------------

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Friday, March 21, 2008 4:11 PM

PEULSAR5

We sniff the air, we don't kiss the dirt.


Quote:

Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
(Well, would-be snappy banter - it really took off in Torchwood2, with His Spikeness.)



Anthony Head also did a couple of Dr. Who episodes a couple of years ago. Keeping it in the Family.

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 7:57 AM

SPACEANJL


Oh, yeah, that nicely creepy not-blinking trick of his.

Just seen the latest 'Torchwood' episode here in the UK - very 'Out of Gas'.

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 2:09 PM

WORLDOFHIGLET


Tom Baker was my doctor, too...though I just about remember Jon Pertwee's fashion sense. The new writing does sometimes smack of Jossverse but then, Joss did study/live in England for a while so I like to think that it had a profound effect on him.

The 'old' doctors had some pretty snappy dialogue, too, and if you want to really look for older sci-fi/supernatural influences then Quatermass would be a good place to start. I don't know if Joss has seen any but I wouldn't be surprised. I don't know when we'll get to see Torchwood or Dr Who over here in Canada, even the DVDs are hard to get.

The 'Jossification' of the world can't be a bad thing, surely (though making up words like that probably is...)

You are beholden to no man
http://worldofhiglet.blogspot.com/

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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 1:25 AM

SPACEANJL


I know Quatermass well. (And Dr Who referenced it in the last series, the episode with Dr Lazarus)

I'd recommend John Wyndham, if you can get his stuff.

As for older sci-fi/supernatual influences (looks at bookshelves) Adams, Asher, Asimov, Barker, Banks, Bear, Brin, Benford, Cherryh, Clarke, Dickson, Gaiman, Hamilton, Harrison, Heinlein, Kneale, LeGuin, Moore, Morgan, Pratchett, Pullman, Rowling, Stoker, Tolkien, Wyndham...yep, think I've got a few ideas.

That's just the one set of bookshelves, by the way. I also collect classic crime, and I studied medieval history. I've got some amazing stuff on the history of magic, the evolution of the vampire myth and some neat ways to kill folk undetected.

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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 3:37 AM

EMMARIGBY


I think I could spend many a happy day at your house pilfering your bookshelves (until you killed me and got off scott free that is).

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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 4:46 AM

CYBERSNARK


. . . You alphabetize your bookshelves?

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 4:54 AM

EMMARIGBY


Well he did, until I messed them all up AND cracked the spines and dogeared the corners. Hence the justifiable homicide!

Getting back to the original subject, I'm pleased that the consensus seems to be for tolerant forebearance for any percieved similarities between Dr Who/ Torchwood and Joss-type shows. I personally don't think any plagerism of ideas/ styles has intentionally occured here but do see a slight resemblence between the comedy focussed Buffy & Who, and also between the the darker more brooding Angel and Torchwood. Maybe this is inevitable in spinoffs that want to feel more 'grown-up'.
Can anyone else think of any series that have spin-offs that fit this pattern?

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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 5:46 AM

WORLDOFHIGLET


Did you start underlining whole sections, too?

You are beholden to no man
http://worldofhiglet.blogspot.com/

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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:19 AM

EMMARIGBY


Now I never go that far. I may be clumsy and a bit of a slob (hence why many of my books are grease stained) but anyone who knowingly disfigures a book or (god forbid) throws one away, deserves a very unpleasant end.
And then the very special hell.

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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:21 AM

HOBBLEIT


Quote:

Originally posted by Cybersnark:
. . . You alphabetize your bookshelves?



I alphabetised mine. I'm very anal like that

******************************

http://www.myspace.com/muddy_waters

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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 9:13 AM

SPACEANJL


Quote:

Originally posted by hobbleit:
Quote:

Originally posted by Cybersnark:
. . . You alphabetize your bookshelves?



I alphabetised mine. I'm very anal like that





I used to work in bookselling. Things linger. Plus, Virgo. Very otaku.

Oh, not just alphabetized by author. Grouped by genre, and any series is in chronological order.

...


Okay, that is sad.


edit: oh, and Emma, SpaceAnJL has a pink blanket, last time I looked.

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Wednesday, March 26, 2008 2:11 PM

IMNOTHERE


Quote:

Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
As for older sci-fi/supernatual influences (looks at bookshelves) Adams,



If we're still talking of Dr Who influences then that's kinda the wrong way round: Douglas Adams actually wrote for Dr Who (the classic version, of course) and chunks of surplus 'Who turn up in his other stories: Elements of "Life, the Universe and Everything" (Hitch Hiker's Guide #3) started life as a proposed story for "Dr Who and the Krikkitmen" and "Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency" contains ideas recycled from the who stories "Shada" (not screened due to a strike) and "City of Death".


(Unless you meant Richard Adams - and we all know that Watership Down influenced a scene in Serenity )

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Wednesday, March 26, 2008 4:46 PM

ZEROKIRYU


Quote:

Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
Oh, not just alphabetized by author. Grouped by genre, and any series is in chronological order.

...


Okay, that is sad.



I organize my books and DVDs that same way, there's nothing wrong with it.

And then I yell at people who get something out and then puts it back in the wrong space.

...

Then again, I am a little bit crazy...

_________________________________________________
Full moon waves
Slowly on the surface of the lake
You were there
Smiling in my arms for all those years

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Thursday, March 27, 2008 1:22 AM

EMMARIGBY


Quote:

Originally posted by ImNotHere:
(Unless you meant Richard Adams - and we all know that Watership Down influenced a scene in Serenity )



*Shivers in remembered terror* Oh no, Serenity never got that scary. Reavers ain't got nothin' on the black rabbit.

(P.S. Sorry again for the gender confusion SpaceAnJL - you sorted me out after this.)

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Thursday, March 27, 2008 2:59 AM

SPACEANJL


Yeah, I did mean Douglas Adams. And 'Reg' is a very thinly disguised Doctor clone.

But the 'Watership Down' parallels - so River is Fiver? (I still have the odd rabbit-related nightmare - being forced to dress up as Peter Rabbit to amuse children will do that to a person. It's a funny story...)

Basically, if it's out there, assume I've read it. (Or seen the film.)

Fic thought - how about if Kaylee fitted an Improbability Drive to 'Serenity'? Has anyone written this yet, or is it just me that thinks like this?

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Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:08 AM

IMNOTHERE


Quote:

Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
Yeah, I did mean Douglas Adams. And 'Reg' is a very thinly disguised Doctor clone.



Actually although "Prof. Chronitis" was a direct lift of a character of the same name from the unscreened 'Who episode "Shada" - he was a "retired" Time Lord, but not the Doctor.

(I spent a year in one of those double-doored rooms - not Cambridge, the other place - and I never saw any time travel desk accessories pop up on my computer. Perhaps they only work on Mac? )

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Thursday, March 27, 2008 11:55 PM

SPACEANJL


Having nearly been blown up by an absent-minded professor at Cambridge, I could believe anything of the place...

As a side-note...in the film, don't you think Bill Nighy would have made a better Zaphod?

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Saturday, April 5, 2008 5:26 AM

CRUITHNE3753


Saw the Torchwood S2 finale last night, shocked to see that

Select to view spoiler:


we had to say goodbye to Owen and (sniff) Tosh,

but was I the only one to think that

Select to view spoiler:


Gray (Jack's brother) had been tortured by his captors, and that he had as a consequence become coldly sadistic. Can I smell Reavers?




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Saturday, April 5, 2008 5:31 PM

DEEPGIRL187


Just saw the finale; still in shock.

Select to view spoiler:


THEY KILLED TOSH! THOSE BASTARDS!!!



*ahem*

Don't know how I'm gonna deal next season. Will definitely be an adjustment.

On the other hand,

Select to view spoiler:


I can't say I feel Gray reminded me of reavers. Severe trauma could do that to anyone.



****************************************************

"This is my timey-wimey detector. It goes ding when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to stay away from hens. It's not pretty when they blow."

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Sunday, April 6, 2008 3:15 PM

CRUITHNE3753


Quote:

Originally posted by deepgirl187:

Select to view spoiler:


I can't say I feel Gray reminded me of reavers. Severe trauma could do that to anyone.



Well not exactly, but the general idea might have been influenced by FF/S. Mind you, on that subject,

Select to view spoiler:


after being buried alive for 1,700 years, wouldn't Jack be completely and utterly stark staring, well, something beyond insane by now?


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Sunday, April 6, 2008 6:52 PM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by Cruithne3753:
Well not exactly, but the general idea might have been influenced by FF/S. Mind you, on that subject,

Select to view spoiler:


after being buried alive for 1,700 years, wouldn't Jack be completely and utterly stark staring, well, something beyond insane by now?




That's what I thought too, at first but

Select to view spoiler:


there is somewhat of an explanation for that one. Jack has "factory settings" so to speak, meaning that when he sustains damage, his body resets to its previous, undamaged state. If that works for physical damage, then it's also possible that it could work for mental damage as well. Though it would be interesting to see if there are some long-term effects, like perhaps claustrophobia.



**************************************************

"This is my timey-wimey detector. It goes ding when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to stay away from hens. It's not pretty when they blow."

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Tuesday, April 8, 2008 12:34 PM

OPTIMUS1998


now that torchwood has ended series 2, anyone care to make guesses as to the new cast members for series 3?

any votes for PC Andy?

Make Cartoons, Not War
- Sue Blu
Well played, Clerks...
- Leonardo Leonardo(Clerks Cartoon)

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Tuesday, April 8, 2008 1:47 PM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by optimus1998:
now that torchwood has ended series 2, anyone care to make guesses as to the new cast members for series 3?

any votes for PC Andy?



Ugh. I certainly hope not. I never really liked him all that much.

It'll be interesting to see what they do end up doing next series, though.

****************************************************

"This is my timey-wimey detector. It goes ding when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to stay away from hens. It's not pretty when they blow."

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Wednesday, April 9, 2008 10:07 AM

IMNOTHERE


Quote:

Originally posted by deepgirl187:
That's what I thought too, at first but

Select to view spoiler:


there is somewhat of an explanation for that one. Jack has "factory settings" so to speak, meaning that when he sustains damage, his body resets to its previous, undamaged state. If that works for physical damage, then it's also possible that it could work for mental damage as well. Though it would be interesting to see if there are some long-term effects, like perhaps claustrophobia.




...or a taste for eating earthworms.

Select to view spoiler:



Or maybe its like the cheerleader from Heroes - he doesn't revive until the cause of death is removed. Sadly, however, I fear it is just lazy plotting: he's gonna be tortured for eternity: hey, he escapes after only 1800-or-so years - so that's OK then!

Likewise: I really don't think nuclear power plants go into meltdown because someone cuts the power to the off-site server. Also, I'm not a nuclear engineer, but I'm pretty sure that the point of a containment building is that it *contains* the nuclear reactor (or fails to) without relying on the hacking skills attractive-but-socially-awkward young Asian lady and her unrequited zombie lover.




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Saturday, April 12, 2008 10:20 AM

CRUITHNE3753


Pushing Daisies is starting on ITV in the UK tonight... 20 mins in so far.

Now this bringing people back to life with a touch reminds me of something, although I think there was a metal gauntlet involved then...

Influential in turn?

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Sunday, April 13, 2008 1:35 AM

IMNOTHERE


Quote:

Originally posted by Cruithne3753:
Pushing Daisies is starting on ITV in the UK tonight... 20 mins in so far.

Now this bringing people back to life with a touch reminds me of something, although I think there was a metal gauntlet involved then...

Influential in turn?



That did occur to me, too - however, I've also read the 1995 novel "Distress" by Greg Egan, which features a scene in which a murder victim is revived so that they can be questioned: however the drugs and other techniques used are ultimately fatal, so its a short-lived revival.

What goes around, comes around...

Then there is all that "Lazerus, come forth!" business in that big thick, wordy book that some people are so keen on. No, not "Lord of the Rings", the other one...




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Sunday, April 13, 2008 5:23 AM

SIMONWHO


The trouble about calling Doctor Who derivative of Buffy is that there's 26 years of Doctor Who before Buffy had even picked up her first stake.

Animated puppets? Been there, done that, been strangled by the phone cord. Lead characters turning bad (then good again)? Step forward Captain Yates. Regulars getting killed off? Go wipe out some dinosaurs Adric. Geeky fans as a self-textual commentary? It's all part of the greatest show in the galaxy.

What's really important is how good the show actually is and Doctor Who kicks arse.

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Sunday, April 13, 2008 6:29 AM

IMNOTHERE


Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
The trouble about calling Doctor Who derivative of Buffy is that there's 26 years of Doctor Who before Buffy had even picked up her first stake.



True (even down to the feisty female assistants who can handle themselves in a fight, who were already taking over from the scream/twist ankle/get captured brigade in the original show).

- but I think the question is whether the *revived* Doctor Who and the *new* Torchwood has been influenced by Buffy etc. - and I think its pretty much an open secret that it has - although "derivative" is going too far - creativity relies on borrowing and improving ideas.

Its certainly picked up ideas about "story arc" structure from Buffy, B5 and other shows that post-date classic 'Who (the signs and portents were coming thick and fast last night) and merging a bit of "relationship drama" into the fantasy. They even nicked a goodly bit of Monty Python last night!

But that's not "derivative". Phillip Pullman was asked about suggestions that a certain Dr Who episode had borrowed from "His Dark Materials" (I think RTD has more or less admitted that) - he basically replied "That's how stories work. Stories are made out of other stories" and points out that he borrowed from Milton etc. for "Dark Materials".

Best link I can find is http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_7130000/newsid_7132700/713274
1.stm
(Warning: kids site - bright colors alert! - also, if you make the connection then its a spoiler for "His Dark Materials"!)


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Sunday, April 20, 2008 7:42 PM

ZEROKIRYU


Quote:

Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Just saw the finale; still in shock.

Select to view spoiler:


THEY KILLED TOSH! THOSE BASTARDS!!!




....

....

WHY GOD WHY!!!!!

_________________________________________________
Full moon waves
Slowly on the surface of the lake
You were there
Smiling in my arms for all those years

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Sunday, April 20, 2008 9:10 PM

SINGATE


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I know what you mean. It wasn't hard to see Owen getting axed but Tosh's death came out of left field. I see why Jack feels guilty about his brother but I'm surprised he didn't execute Gray knowing he was the one to murder Tosh in cold blood. It was outright sadistic to gutshot her then walk away.

I don't see the Reaver connection someone else alluded to. I get the feeling that these beings are worse than Reavers. They torture for the sake of inflicting pain, allowing their victims to survive as long as possible.

I was wondering about Jack's mental state after being buried for 1900 years but DeepGirl satisfied my curiosity on that one.

What exactly does Jack intend for Gray? John is right, waking him up and hoping for him to be better is a pipedream. Maybe they coud do that whole mind erasure thing or something similar to what Angel did for Connor.

So who is going to fill the void left by Tosh and Owen? I heard rumblings that Martha may come back. I also heard a strange one about Mickey, I say strange because to my knowledge he's in another dimension.

All in all a damn fine finale...though I will miss seeing Tosh.



_________________________________________________

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Sunday, April 20, 2008 10:31 PM

SPACEANJL


Select to view spoiler:


Micky? Given that Rose appears to be walking between the worlds, it could happen. Martha is a strong possibility. And an outside recruit - would we like to see more Cap'n John? Yes, we would. I foresee a triangle with 'Eye Candy' Or possibly the pteradactyl...



Plus - this week's Who? Our old friend the amygdala popped up! I was not convinced about CT as Companion before, but am pleasantly surprised.

I'm all for borrowing from the best, personally. (As my readers may have gathered) And I think DT's Doctor would be a hoot in the FF 'Verse. (There are some very good fics about same over in fanfiction.net) Of course, it's now quite rare to see anything that doesn't have an ass-kicking heroine in it - yay Joss!

(I still want an Adipose - so cute!)


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