OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

Doctor Who - The Moffat Strikes Back.

POSTED BY: MRBLUESUN
UPDATED: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 22:44
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Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:25 PM

MRBLUESUN


Okay so a kinda lame title for a thread but it was the best that i could think of =P
Anyway, i was just wondering, since Russell T Davies has begun this whole thing of reviving and updating classic Who villains, which ones would you want the soon-to-be-head-honcho Steven Moffat to try his hand at?
Remember there have already been the Daleks, the Cybermen, the Sontarans, the Macra and the Master, so pretty a high bar to aim for.
Personally i think that he could do some interesting things with the Valeyard (who is the personification of all the evil that the Doctor might be between now and his last incarnation). I think Moffat's flair for the psychological could really make its dependence upon the Doctor (since it is not technically alive, but rather an abstarct personification of the Doctor's dark side) an interesting plot point.

Open forumn, go nuts!

I may wear brown, but theres a little purple mixed in there too.

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Wednesday, August 13, 2008 2:53 PM

MAL92REYNOLDS


I would like to see the Silurians come back for a huge 2 parter (possibly with the sea devils). They are some of the most interesting classic series villains.

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Wednesday, August 13, 2008 3:40 PM

DEEPGIRL187


I don't have a ton of familiarity with classic Who, but I do like the idea of bringing back the Valeyard.

Actually, on that thought, maybe we could see the Time Lords brought back, only not as benevolent as we might believe. Or possibly (also along the evil route) bring back Omega.

****************************************************

"This is my timey-wimey detector. It goes ding when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to stay away from hens. It's not pretty when they blow."

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Wednesday, August 13, 2008 4:12 PM

EVILDINOSAUR


I haven't seen much doctor who outside of the new series, I've queued up a whole bunch of old stuff on netflix to start watching. Any reccomendations of specific movies or episodes that I should look into?

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

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Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:23 PM

EMMARIGBY


I am also a sci-fi fan from childhood who is embarrassed to admit an old Who defecit. How did that happen? I was President of my University sci-fi society for goodness sake! If it had come out how little Who I'd watched at that time I'd have been lynched!

I'll also have to try and catch up now! They're bringing out more and more DVDs. When I've watched a few of them I'll give an opinion on missing villians!



___________________
Hissssssssss!

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Wednesday, August 13, 2008 11:14 PM

SIMONWHO


To be honest, I think they should focus on new villains. The Daleks are classics and will always return but Moffat has already given us scary creatures like the Empty Child, the Weeping Angels and Vashta Nerada, so I'm hoping he'll focus on creating some more.

But yeah, I imagine the Sea Devils and probably the Yeti will return.

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Thursday, August 14, 2008 12:15 AM

MRBLUESUN


Quote:

Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Or possibly (also along the evil route) bring back Omega.


Interesting that you should mention that, because apparently Omega was one of the characters rumoured (sources decidedly unclear) to make a return in either one of the 2009 specials or as the 'big bad' for the 2010 series.
Personally if any timelord is coming back (besides the Valeyard)i'd vote for Rassilon, the granddaddy of them all!
I mean, hes never been given proper screen time (that floating beardy head in 'the five doctors' not withstanding)and yet is supposed to be stupidly powerful. Plus, my guess is he'd be pretty pissed at the doctor, who after all did destroy Gallifrey which Rassilon built practically from the ground up.

I may wear brown, but theres a little purple mixed in there too.

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Friday, August 15, 2008 11:28 AM

LWAVES


Quote:

Originally posted by EvilDinosaur:
I haven't seen much doctor who outside of the new series, I've queued up a whole bunch of old stuff on netflix to start watching. Any reccomendations of specific movies or episodes that I should look into?

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."



Well you must watch Genesis Of The Daleks (Tom Baker). This is the episode referenced by Davros and Sarah Jane in the final episodes of the new fourth season.

Plus:

The Deadly Assassin (Tom Baker)
Remembrance Of The Daleks (Sylvester McCoy)
Spearhead From Space (Jon Pertwee)
The Three Doctors (Jon Pertwee but with Patrick Troughton and William Hartnell)

There are so many to pick from it's hard but most Dalek and Cybermen stories are worth it, the last and first episode of each Doctor are also worth a look (if only to see each regeneration).
Generally speaking you can't go wrong with Tom Baker but the best way is to try a couple from each Doctor and see which actor you like best and stick to those first.



"I don't believe in suicide, but if you'd like to try it it might cheer me up to watch."

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Friday, August 15, 2008 3:08 PM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by EvilDinosaur:
I haven't seen much doctor who outside of the new series, I've queued up a whole bunch of old stuff on netflix to start watching. Any reccomendations of specific movies or episodes that I should look into?



You might also try City Of Death and The Time Warrior. City Of Death is often considered one of the best serials in Baker's era, and The Time Warrior is the first appearance of Sarah Jane.

****************************************************

"This is my timey-wimey detector. It goes ding when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to stay away from hens. It's not pretty when they blow."

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Friday, August 15, 2008 4:21 PM

REGINAROADIE


I've only seen one episode of any classic WHO, which was "Pyramids of Mars" with Tom Baker. So I'm not totally up to date with the classic Who villains. But whoever they decide to create or bring back, I'm game for.

My main concern though, is that with the change in command from Davis to Moffat, I'm afraid that the show will lose it's comedic/adventurous tone and become another stern um drang/ heavily serious sci-fi series like LOST or BATTLESTAR GALACTICA. Don't get me wrong, I think Steven Moffat is brilliant, but the eps he's done don't really have much humor to them.

One of the reasons I love DOCTOR WHO over BSG and LOST is that of the big 4, it's the only one other than HEROES that has an actual sense of humor and a sense of adventure. It's as funny as it is scary and dramatic. Even though The Doctor is the only Time Lord left and the survivor of a massive genocide whose lived 900 years, he's incredibly chipper and excited and has such a joy for life. Which is a huge turnaround from the people on BSG or LOST who are so tormented and wallowing in self-pity and tragedy. The only other character in sci-fi like that that I can think of is Hiro Nakamura.

People really don't give Russell T. Davis enough credit. He knew to break up the action and scariness and drama with some much needed cheeky British humor. Also, "Midnight" the ep that was after Moffat's 2 parter, was just as and maybe even more scary than "Blink". So he was a competent show runner and not the George Lucas of the DOCTOR WHO series that some people say he is.

So is anyone nervous of Moffat turning one of the most funny and adventurous sci-fi series on the air into an incredibly serious, not humorous stare into the abyss like BSG and LOST can be at times?

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 1:34 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by reginaroadie:
People really don't give Russell T. Davis enough credit. He knew to break up the action and scariness and drama with some much needed cheeky British humor. Also, "Midnight" the ep that was after Moffat's 2 parter, was just as and maybe even more scary than "Blink". So he was a competent show runner and not the George Lucas of the DOCTOR WHO series that some people say he is.

So is anyone nervous of Moffat turning one of the most funny and adventurous sci-fi series on the air into an incredibly serious, not humorous stare into the abyss like BSG and LOST can be at times?



Midnight, in my opinion, is one of the best episodes of the entire series (and I'm inclined to say the best). And while I'm still a little pissed about the season finale, I agree that people are too quick to write RTD off. If you've spent anytime on some of the DW boards, I'm sure you're more than familiar with the RTD bashing that tends to go on there.

I'm not that afraid of Moffat turning DW into BSG, or heaven forbid, Lost. Even in episodes like Blink or The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances, there's humor (though it can be more of the gallows variety). I think that Moffat knows if he pushed DW more towards the dark and grim side of things, it would lose a lot of what makes it Doctor Who. So, no worries, IMO. We're in good hands.

**************************************************

"This is my timey-wimey detector. It goes ding when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to stay away from hens. It's not pretty when they blow."

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 9:38 AM

IMNOTHERE


Quote:

Originally posted by reginaroadie:
So is anyone nervous of Moffat turning one of the most funny and adventurous sci-fi series on the air into an incredibly serious, not humorous stare into the abyss like BSG and LOST can be at times?



I don't think there's anything wrong with Moffat's sense of humour - its just rather more subtle and ironic with fewer set-piece jokes, double-entendres and fart gags than RTD's high camp style (not that there isn't room for some fart gags in this world).

Please run a level 1 diagnostic on your humour receptors and re-watch "Blink", "The Girl in the fireplace" or "The Empty Child". Firstly, I'd argue that the premises of "Blink" or TGITF are inherently humorous. Actually, I thought TGITF had a distinctly Douglas Adams-y feel to it.

Blink gave us the ultimate antidote to Technobabble: "It goes bing when there's stuff". In TGITF, Micky looks out at interstellar space and proclaims "It's so realistic..." In "Empty Child" we have the whole sonic implement envy routine between the Doctor and Jack and a "Sonic Blaster" with an "undo" button...

Actually, I'd say that Moffat's humour was more in line with Firefly/Buffy than with RTD's (Jeckell and, for those with long memories, Press Gang, showed a similar style).

Quote:

Also, "Midnight" the ep that was after Moffat's 2 parter, was just as and maybe even more scary than "Blink".


You worry about Who becoming an "incredibly serious, not humorous stare into the abyss" and then pick "Midnight" (excellent, but pretty much a serious, non-humorous stare into the abyss) as the best ep ever? Interesting...

P.s. In defense of RTD: RTD, as executive producer, has done a magnificent job of regenerating Who by striking a difficult balance between updating the show for a modern audience and respecting the old show. Most of his critics, given the job, would probably have produced a pile of convoluted fanwank endlessly referencing classic Who and the post-cancellation books which would have attracted an audience of literally dozens. His "sin" is that the episodes he's written personally tend to look a bit weak alongside ones by other writers. OTOH that means that RTD has found and hired excellent writers, and allowed to do their job.

When Moffat takes over he is not, presumably, going to write all the episodes personally. Maybe he'll even hire RTD to write the annual Xmas pantomime episode (or maybe, freed from the bonds of executive producer-ing, RTD could come out with a few more crackers like "Midnight"?)



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Saturday, August 16, 2008 12:43 PM

SIMONWHO


Moffat's episodes have had a lot of humour in them and don't forget he wrote Coupling (the original UK version, not the US abomination) so it's not like he's not a comic genius in his own right.

There's no way he can match RTD's success in how popular he has made the show - the combination of an old favourite that appeals to new audiences, two wonderful lead actors and widespread media interest was a perfect storm that simply can't be repeated. But I just hope he makes the very best Doctor Who that he can. He turned down making movies with Spielberg for this job so he's going to make the most of it I'm sure.

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 3:09 PM

REGINAROADIE


And the cool thing about that was that Spielberg himself is a fan of DOCTOR WHO and totally understood why he turned the offer down. He probably even had his blessing.

As for me mentioning "Midnight", I brought that up because there seems to be this perception that DOCTOR WHO was a great show despite RTD and not because of him. That Moffat was the true creative genius while RTD was the meddling fool. But I would stack "Midnight", "Turn Left" and any of the two part finales from any season that he wrote, even the season 3 one, against any of Moffat's episodes in terms of scariness, suspense, tension, character and drama.

Or course, there were so many other writers who contributed incredible episodes. Like Robert Shearman, whose one episode in season one "Dalek" turned what was a punchline in sci-fi into the stuff of nightmares. And Paul Cornell, whose "Father's Day" episode was one of the most powerful DOCTOR WHO stories I've seen in the series. So I don't think it's just one person whose solely responsible for the shows greatness. Even Joss couldn't do it would David Fury, Doug Petrie, Marti Noxon, Jane Espenson, David Greenwalt, Tim Minear and Drew Goddard in the writer's room.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Sunday, August 17, 2008 1:08 AM

IMNOTHERE


Quote:

Originally posted by reginaroadie:
I brought that up because there seems to be this perception that DOCTOR WHO was a great show despite RTD and not because of him.



Yes, well, some people are just wrong... RTD as executive producer deserves heaps of credit for the success of the series. Its just that some of the writers he hired wrote better episodes than him...

I think the strength of Moffat/Cornell etc. is that they seamlessly blend scary monsters (statues, skeletons in spacesuits) for kids of all ages with more psychological horror (people displaced in time, kids surviving in the blitz, the "digital ghosts", Donna's imaginary happy family). RTD has shown he can do monsters (OMG! Daleks vs. Cybermen!!!) or Psychological (Midnight, Turn Left) but it tends to be clearly signposted as one or the other.

...plus, he relies on Deus ex Machina - or worse, Doctor ex Machina and plot reset buttons a bit too much.

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 1:28 PM

TRAVELER


I would like to see The Master.


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Wednesday, September 24, 2008 10:44 PM

FIREFLY151


Um... I'll just get back to main topic for a moment

I disagree with bringing back the Valeyard. Many people have mentioned that idea for a long time, but... it just seems so long ago. It was an idea unexplored and new viewers of Doctor Who won't know who the Valeyard is. He wasn't anything particularly astounding. But the idea of this evil personality could be explored... just in audio or novel form.

Rassilon...definitely. He was decreed immortal, which means he may have survived the Time War, possibly. That would also include Borusa and those other immortal Time Lords. Becasue Rassilon was so powerful, he's like ly to have survived. On the other hand, he may have even played a part in the Time War... But it would be great for a Time Lord to return, and we wouldn't know what to expect with Rassilon. He probably wouldn't even be evil.

It's important to remember that Moffat said he wouldn't bring back original Who foes unless there was a really, really good story. I like this.
The problem is that returning Who foes haven't necessarily been done justice. Yes, the daleks were excellent. The autons/nestene conciousness were good. The cybermen were great too (except for their introsuctory 2 parter and their feet!). But then there's the sontarans. I couldn't believe what they did to them. It was disgraceful. They were made out to be a joke, constantly humiliated, most likely making newer Who viewers see them as funny things, not warriors. The purple lighting, the height/racist jokes... The sontarans were given a poor image. And I don't want that happening to other classic Who enemies.

I would like to see the ice warriors return, as the Peladon serials just weren't ice warriorish enough. And they were creepy, and Moffat could do a good job. As for the zygons, fans seem to have predicted their return, but I doubt it. They already failed to return and ended up in Sting of the Zygons (Book). But yes, zygons (loch nesses), silurians, sea devils, there's a lot... I just hope none are brought back solely for the sake of it. I mean, the sontarans could easily have been something else. And their ships weren't the awesome, classic spheres either. So I hope that returning monsters have more of the classic features too, not just new everything.

And is there even one famous new Doctor Who creature???????? There's the oh so popular daleks and cybermen, but what about NuWho? SLitheen? No. Vashta nerada? No. Adipose? No. Ood? No. But Moffat... I think he's capable of creating the iconic or at least very popular enemies Doctor Who should have. Besides, Doctor Who was known for having great monsters back before I was born. And now? It's simply bringing back the old ones and be lazy with the new...

As for Moffat being un-funny... Well, he has said it will be a darker season in 2010, but I think it would be fine to have dark humour too. Anyway, Moffat will still only be writing some of the epidoes in a season, not all of them, so there's not so much for comedy-loving fans to worry about anyway. And I can't wait for dark Doctor Who, its about time.

Finally, you might have noticed that the aliens species all started with lower case letters. That's becasue I disagree with Daleks or Silurians. It should be daleks and silurians. It's not like silurian is a title. It's a species name. Just like human or polar bear. I mean, it's not Humans. It's humans. So why would aliens have capital letters?... I think it's just a habit that just kept going until it became Doctor Who canonical.

I'm grinning in case I seem unhappy, or agumemntative, or grouchy, or bossy... which I'm not

---
Keep Writing, Keep Flying

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