OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

Star Trek Better Second Time

POSTED BY: JONGSSTRAW
UPDATED: Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:47
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Tuesday, May 19, 2009 1:57 AM

JONGSSTRAW



I saw it again last night, sans children, and I found it much more enjoyable. Knowing a little about what is going on helps you appreciate everything much more. My opinion of this flick has gone from good to excellent. In many regards it is an epic, possibly the best of all the Trek films.


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Tuesday, May 19, 2009 6:22 AM

OPPYH


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

I saw it again last night, sans children, and I found it much more enjoyable. Knowing a little about what is going on helps you appreciate everything much more. My opinion of this flick has gone from good to excellent. In many regards it is an epic, possibly the best of all the Trek films.




I'm going to see it again. I liked it, but it will never be the best Trek movie.

The Voyage Home beats it.

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Tuesday, May 19, 2009 6:51 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Funny, just the other day I listed Voyage Home as the best Trek movie. Having seen the new movie again, I have to say that it's much better than I thought after the first viewing. There are BIG things, epic things happening in this movie....the Kirk origin and legacy, the Vulcan holocaust, etc....but most importantly the rise and development of the crew, and the respect they have for Kirk, and how he earned it.

Someone the other day put this movie at the top of their Trek movie list. I have to agree now. No other Trek movie is as large in scope, or as much fun, and full of creative imaginativeness as this one was for me.

See it again, and post your feelings about it. I'll be curious to see if you change your feelings.

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Tuesday, May 19, 2009 7:15 AM

DEWRASTLER


I know this is going to go a little off topic, but am I the only one who thinks that The Voyage Home isn't that good? It's one of my least favorite Treks. I think the plot is ridiculous, their method for time travel odd (mainly the fact that the old warbird they were in was a POS spaceship), and all in all it just doesn't sit right with me. Granted, I've only seen it once or twice and I think I was about 15 at the time, but I just wasn't too impressed.

As for the new Star Trek, I saw it twice also and thought it was awesome both times. They really cranked up the stakes in this one. I just felt more invested into what was going on in the story.

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

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Tuesday, May 19, 2009 7:44 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by OPPYH:


The Voyage Home beats it.

I can see why you'd say that- TVH is just SO much fun- but on my list only TMP beats it.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, May 19, 2009 7:44 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Dewrastler:
I know this is going to go a little off topic, but am I the only one who thinks that The Voyage Home isn't that good? It's one of my least favorite Treks. I think the plot is ridiculous, their method for time travel odd (mainly the fact that the old warbird they were in was a POS spaceship), and all in all it just doesn't sit right with me. Granted, I've only seen it once or twice and I think I was about 15 at the time, but I just wasn't too impressed.

As for the new Star Trek, I saw it twice also and thought it was awesome both times. They really cranked up the stakes in this one. I just felt more invested into what was going on in the story.

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do



You're certainly not the "only" one who didn't like Voyage Home. It's not generally regarded as one of the best. But for me, I liked it the most of the original movies.

The "problems" you mention are all dealt with in the movie....the old Romulan ship, the method of time travel, etc are all addressed by the crew. What I like about the film are the crew's interaction with 20th century people...some very funny stuff. I like the whale biologist gal a lot. I like the scenes with her and Kirk. I like the whole theme of the movie, which relates to animal extinction. It's also the movie where we get our Spock back, after his Katra was put back in at the end of Search For Spock. There's a lot of good 'ole McCoy - Spock discussions of logic and things. After this movie Spock relied less on logic, and started to appreciate his human emotions in life's equations....as he explained to his protege Valeris in Undiscovered Country. Give it another try sometime.

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Tuesday, May 19, 2009 10:00 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
the crew's interaction with 20th century people...some very funny stuff. I like the whale biologist gal a lot. I like the scenes with her and Kirk. I like the whole theme of the movie, which relates to animal extinction. It's also the movie where we get our Spock back, after his Katra was put back in at the end of Search For Spock. There's a lot of good 'ole McCoy - Spock discussions of logic and things. After this movie Spock relied less on logic, and started to appreciate his human emotions in life's equations....as he explained to his protege Valeris in Undiscovered Country. Give it another try sometime.

Yeah, what Jong said.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, May 19, 2009 10:23 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


I will acknowledge Star Trek as a good film but I will ask this:

Can anyone comment on the logic of promoting Kirk from Cadet to Captain? He bypassed all the ranks: Ensign, Lt Jr grade, Lt, Lt cmder, & Cmder to sit in the main seat.

When I watched that happen I thought of it as nothing more than elementry school storytelling.

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Tuesday, May 19, 2009 10:25 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Dewrastler:
I know this is going to go a little off topic, but am I the only one who thinks that The Voyage Home isn't that good?

No, you're not the only one.

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Tuesday, May 19, 2009 10:30 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:

Can anyone comment on the logic of promoting Kirk from Cadet to Captain? He bypassed all the ranks: Ensign, Lt Jr grade, Lt, Lt cmder, & Cmder to sit in the main seat.


Logic is in question, where field promotions are concerned.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, May 19, 2009 10:32 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Quote:

Originally posted by Dewrastler:
I know this is going to go a little off topic, but am I the only one who thinks that The Voyage Home isn't that good?

No, you're not the only one.

Yeah, the Earth-is-threatened-yet-again thing was tired, but the character interaction was priceless.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, May 19, 2009 10:40 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Logic is in question, where field promotions are concerned.

By that do you mean a brevit field promotion? Like Mal going from Staff Sgt to Captain in Serenity Valley?

Come on dude, Kirk was made the captain of the flagship of the federation fleet in San Fransisco in front of a federation tribunal during peacetime. Can nobody see the wierd foolisness of this? If the story had been told differently it might have worked. Had Kirk not been a misfit and in starfleet already a story can be constructed to avoid the problem. If the story is left the same and Kirk promoted beyond Ensign to..say..Lt Jr Grade for oustanding iniative, well ok then, good on him! I'll buy it. But the story Abrams told unhinged my belief suspension. I went from experiencing a Trek story to sitting in a theater with about 400 other people in front of a glowing screen.

I hate it when this happens because it represents lazy story construction.


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Tuesday, May 19, 2009 10:44 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
I will acknowledge Star Trek as a good film but I will ask this:

Can anyone comment on the logic of promoting Kirk from Cadet to Captain? He bypassed all the ranks: Ensign, Lt Jr grade, Lt, Lt cmder, & Cmder to sit in the main seat.

When I watched that happen I thought of it as nothing more than elementry school storytelling.


You need to see it again. When Captain Pike was leaving to surrender to Nero he promoted Kirk to First Officer, and he made Spock acting Captain. Spock was not thrilled about that, but Kirk earned that battlefield commission because he recognized what was really going on over Vulcan. Kirk saved all their lives, and also Pike knew that young Kirk had the potential and qualities of his father. After Spock attacked Kirk he relinquished command to Kirk, who became acting Captain. The entire crew was young, and that's typical of military situations, and a brand new starship. Nothing elementary schoolish here. Just great storytelling on an epic scale.

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Tuesday, May 19, 2009 10:46 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:

I hate it when this happens because it represents lazy story construction.


You mean like when Dr. Marcus was looking for MONTHS in our galaxy for a lifeless moon or other dead form...?
Or when the Enterprise or a Klingon Bird of Prey slingshot around the sun doing WARP 9...?

Dude...relax.




The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, May 19, 2009 11:56 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

You need to see it again. When Captain Pike was leaving to surrender to Nero he promoted Kirk to First Officer, and he made Spock acting Captain. Spock was not thrilled about that, but Kirk earned that battlefield commission because he recognized what was really going on over Vulcan. Kirk saved all their lives, and also Pike knew that young Kirk had the potential and qualities of his father. After Spock attacked Kirk he relinquished command to Kirk, who became acting Captain. The entire crew was young, and that's typical of military situations, and a brand new starship. Nothing elementary schoolish here. Just great storytelling on an epic scale.



That explains a temporary field commission, sure. But I don't think there's any way in hell an organization like the Federation would then make that promotion permanent. Making a cadet Captain of the frakkin flagship is stretching credibility beyond it's limits.

That was one of the few problems I had with the script.

But I let is slide, knowing they were essentially unable to finish the script - The writer's strike went into effect in the middle of a re-write. Abrams commented several times durring filming that there were portions of the script he was unhappy with, but had no choice but to film what they had. I tend to think, with a little extra polish, issues like this promotion would have been worked out.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, May 19, 2009 12:13 PM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

You mean like when Dr. Marcus was looking for MONTHS in our galaxy for a lifeless moon or other dead form...?
Or when the Enterprise or a Klingon Bird of Prey slingshot around the sun doing WARP 9...?

Dude...relax.

Perhaps I compare things to the perfection of Firefly too much. I like logic. I like good stories. I like it when storytellers sit down and write something that is real and true in the fiction.

Let me say it this way:

Objects in Space is my favorite work of any sci-fi I've ever seen. When I watch the episode I might see River walking through the ship and say out loud "That's Summer Glau"....but I cannot feel it. It's not the acting ability that does this, it's the STORY. The tale is so good I cannot make myself see the actors at all, so complete is my suspension of disbelief.

When writters make up stuff like Abrams did with Kirk, I find the opposite happening. My belief suspension is removed. I no longer see a character piloting a ship in combat, but rather an actor surrounded by CGI. In the case of the film, Pike made Kirk (a stowaway cadet) the XO of the ship. While that seems awsome to us Trek fans who love Kirk, where is the logical outcome of such an action? When was Pike court marshalled for endangering the welfare of a flagship by field promoting a mavrick no-experience cadet who cheated his way through the Koybashi Maru exam?

Makes as much sense as warp 9 time travel around the sun. Yes. And BTW Chris, based upon your statements of seeking meaning, I hereby raise my opinion of Undiscovered Country in the other thread to switch it with Voyage Home. You're right about the message of Undiscovered Country being "Be aware of Bias"

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Tuesday, May 19, 2009 2:57 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Kirk's weird promotion ( both of them ) did bother me too,

But how about Spock having him thrown into an escape pod and jettisoned from the ship?????


the brig, sure.... but come on







" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson


Lets party like its 1939

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Tuesday, May 19, 2009 11:31 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

You need to see it again. When Captain Pike was leaving to surrender to Nero he promoted Kirk to First Officer, and he made Spock acting Captain. Spock was not thrilled about that, but Kirk earned that battlefield commission because he recognized what was really going on over Vulcan. Kirk saved all their lives, and also Pike knew that young Kirk had the potential and qualities of his father. After Spock attacked Kirk he relinquished command to Kirk, who became acting Captain. The entire crew was young, and that's typical of military situations, and a brand new starship. Nothing elementary schoolish here. Just great storytelling on an epic scale.



That explains a temporary field commission, sure. But I don't think there's any way in hell an organization like the Federation would then make that promotion permanent. Making a cadet Captain of the frakkin flagship is stretching credibility beyond it's limits.

That was one of the few problems I had with the script.

But I let is slide, knowing they were essentially unable to finish the script - The writer's strike went into effect in the middle of a re-write. Abrams commented several times durring filming that there were portions of the script he was unhappy with, but had no choice but to film what they had. I tend to think, with a little extra polish, issues like this promotion would have been worked out.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."


Starfleet just lost all of their Galaxy class staarships in one fell swoop. Pike was about to do the same, except that Kirk's doggedness helped Pike realize his error.
Name on other person on board Enterprise who deserved to be in the Captains seat more - who had saved the entire ship, the entire crew, the entire remains of the fleet. No One. Not one single other person. Every single other person was perfectly willing to head into the slaughter even tho Kirk was telling them what a mistake it was.
A Battlefield Promotion is givien under the harshest conditions, where the mettle of the man is most gratly tested.
Kirk was the only person suited to fill that chair after Pike, and that is why Pike promoted him to first Officer, knowing full well he was second in command after Spock. If you were an Admiral and did not realize the wisdom of this, you need to be decommisioned or retired post hence.
Now, Spock ejecting him from the ship - that was lousy storytelling.

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Wednesday, May 20, 2009 2:41 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Name on other person on board Enterprise who deserved to be in the Captains seat more -

Kirk was the only person suited to fill that chair after Pike, and that is why Pike promoted him to first Officer, knowing full well he was second in command after Spock. If you were an Admiral and did not realize the wisdom of this, you need to be decommisioned or retired post hence.

You're working on the assumption that the captain of the enterprise has to be a person actively serving on the ship when it left spacedock on it's emergency run to engage Nero. That the new captain cannot be any number of the active duty starfleet officers present in San Francisco.

Let me present it another way. I believe that the film Batman Begins did a great thing in introducing Gordon to the viewers as a young patrolman who comforts Bruce after his parents are killed. During the main body of the film he had previously been promoted to sergeant. After his outstanding leadership during the film he recieved a bump to Lt. This kind of storytelling MAKES SENSE. However, going from Lt to Commishiner in Dark Knight...eh...a stretch. The position (known in most depts as "Chief") is usually a mayor nominated position whose candidates are normally Captains, but a case can be made to promote an outstanding Lt. and catching the Joker might make sense in the fiction.

Kirk on the other hand was a misfit in this alternate verse. He cheated his way through the kobyashi Maru and while under investigation for his actions was suspended from duty. He stowed away on the Fleet Flagship with help from a medical cadet. Before it was all over, Pike makes him XO in the field (under overwhelming circumstances, yes I agree) and he becomes Capt. What should the logical result of this be then?

If it was my story Kirk would return to earth to complete his hearing. The tribunal would rule that Kirk's solution to the unwinnable exam was a valid solution and his actions against Nero further prove not only the exam solution, but Kirks brillance. For this he recieves his formal commission as an officer as Lt J. Grade and all other cadets on Enterprise recieve ensign. (Insert a graduation hat throwing scene) The next film will detail Kirks continuing outstanding service on a ship (Not the enterprise) and his growth like Gordon to be the captain of the enterprise by the end of a third film. And who cares if the "fleet" was destroyed by nero resulting in no ship other than the enterprise. I would never have allowed the story to destroy the fleet.

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Wednesday, May 20, 2009 5:56 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

You need to see it again. When Captain Pike was leaving to surrender to Nero he promoted Kirk to First Officer, and he made Spock acting Captain. Spock was not thrilled about that, but Kirk earned that battlefield commission because he recognized what was really going on over Vulcan. Kirk saved all their lives, and also Pike knew that young Kirk had the potential and qualities of his father. After Spock attacked Kirk he relinquished command to Kirk, who became acting Captain. The entire crew was young, and that's typical of military situations, and a brand new starship. Nothing elementary schoolish here. Just great storytelling on an epic scale.



That explains a temporary field commission, sure. But I don't think there's any way in hell an organization like the Federation would then make that promotion permanent. Making a cadet Captain of the frakkin flagship is stretching credibility beyond it's limits.

That was one of the few problems I had with the script.

But I let is slide, knowing they were essentially unable to finish the script - The writer's strike went into effect in the middle of a re-write. Abrams commented several times durring filming that there were portions of the script he was unhappy with, but had no choice but to film what they had. I tend to think, with a little extra polish, issues like this promotion would have been worked out.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."


Starfleet just lost all of their Galaxy class staarships in one fell swoop. Pike was about to do the same, except that Kirk's doggedness helped Pike realize his error.
Name on other person on board Enterprise who deserved to be in the Captains seat more - who had saved the entire ship, the entire crew, the entire remains of the fleet. No One. Not one single other person. Every single other person was perfectly willing to head into the slaughter even tho Kirk was telling them what a mistake it was.
A Battlefield Promotion is givien under the harshest conditions, where the mettle of the man is most gratly tested.
Kirk was the only person suited to fill that chair after Pike, and that is why Pike promoted him to first Officer, knowing full well he was second in command after Spock. If you were an Admiral and did not realize the wisdom of this, you need to be decommisioned or retired post hence.
Now, Spock ejecting him from the ship - that was lousy storytelling.



Did you even read what I wrote....? Again, you're talking the field commission in a time of emergency. And I agree, it works in that context, because there was no-one else to step-up.

I am talking about the end, when they officially put him in permanent command. I highly doubt there was not ONE single officer in ALL of Starfleet whith more experience than Kirk. That is where this falls apart.

A field commission is for times of emergency. And no matter how well he did with that command, he would not be given permanent command of the flagship as a cadet. It's just silly.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, May 20, 2009 6:34 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Interesting discussions here folks. I have NEVER seen a "perfect" movie in my life. They don't exist. They all have problems with plot or character to some degree, even our beloved Serenity. Compared the rest of the Treks that preceded this for the last 20+ years, this new movie blows them all away. It took a second viewing for me to feel this way. I may see it for a third time while its still on the big screen.

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Wednesday, May 20, 2009 6:59 AM

STORYMARK


Granted, every movie has flaws, but still... blatant gaps in logic are bad, and saying "all movies have flaws" is a lame defense.

Yeah, it's an awesome movie, but that shouldn't mean we can't acknowledge where it went wrong.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, May 20, 2009 6:06 PM

OPPYH


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
You're certainly not the "only" one who didn't like Voyage Home. It's not generally regarded as one of the best. But for me, I liked it the most of the original movies.


Probably regarded as one of the best because it's the most "mainstream" Trek film.

Easy to get into(especially for non-fans) enjoy and laugh for a while. It is still the most entertaining Trek film I have seen.

Search for Spock also kicks ass. I liked it better than the Wrath of Kahn.

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Wednesday, May 20, 2009 7:55 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

You need to see it again. When Captain Pike was leaving to surrender to Nero he promoted Kirk to First Officer, and he made Spock acting Captain. Spock was not thrilled about that, but Kirk earned that battlefield commission because he recognized what was really going on over Vulcan. Kirk saved all their lives, and also Pike knew that young Kirk had the potential and qualities of his father. After Spock attacked Kirk he relinquished command to Kirk, who became acting Captain. The entire crew was young, and that's typical of military situations, and a brand new starship. Nothing elementary schoolish here. Just great storytelling on an epic scale.



That explains a temporary field commission, sure. But I don't think there's any way in hell an organization like the Federation would then make that promotion permanent. Making a cadet Captain of the frakkin flagship is stretching credibility beyond it's limits.

That was one of the few problems I had with the script.

But I let is slide, knowing they were essentially unable to finish the script - The writer's strike went into effect in the middle of a re-write. Abrams commented several times durring filming that there were portions of the script he was unhappy with, but had no choice but to film what they had. I tend to think, with a little extra polish, issues like this promotion would have been worked out.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."


Starfleet just lost all of their Galaxy class staarships in one fell swoop. Pike was about to do the same, except that Kirk's doggedness helped Pike realize his error.
Name on other person on board Enterprise who deserved to be in the Captains seat more - who had saved the entire ship, the entire crew, the entire remains of the fleet. No One. Not one single other person. Every single other person was perfectly willing to head into the slaughter even tho Kirk was telling them what a mistake it was.
A Battlefield Promotion is givien under the harshest conditions, where the mettle of the man is most gratly tested.
Kirk was the only person suited to fill that chair after Pike, and that is why Pike promoted him to first Officer, knowing full well he was second in command after Spock. If you were an Admiral and did not realize the wisdom of this, you need to be decommisioned or retired post hence.
Now, Spock ejecting him from the ship - that was lousy storytelling.



Did you even read what I wrote....? Again, you're talking the field commission in a time of emergency. And I agree, it works in that context, because there was no-one else to step-up.

I am talking about the end, when they officially put him in permanent command. I highly doubt there was not ONE single officer in ALL of Starfleet whith more experience than Kirk. That is where this falls apart.

A field commission is for times of emergency. And no matter how well he did with that command, he would not be given permanent command of the flagship as a cadet. It's just silly.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."


I do understand we may differ on viewpoint.
Kirk's Commission was a Battlefield Commisiion. In another Trek story, superior officers have remarked how they had difficulty reprimanding a brash Officer why had just saved their lives, and every single person on Earth was just saved by Kirk. Kirk also, after being placed In Command, effectively Commanded the Enterprise in Battle, where the stakes for all Earthdwellers, as well as all Federation Planets, were at maximum.
Also consider that, like Kirk in the future, one must step down from Admiralty to Command as Captain, and did anybody at Starfleet want to do that?
The Reins of Command are normally not best used to Halt or Slow the mustangs in your forces, but rather to merely aim them in the right direction, and see how far they go and how fast they get there. This is what the wisest of Starfleet knew, and did with Kirk in this story.

Why is nobody complaining about the promotions of Scotty, Uhura, or Bones. Bones seems most suspect - what did he contribute to the mission that prohibits another more experienced MD from being placed over him upon return to Starfleet?
Scotty, exiled to a backwash where no other human resides, suddenly the Chief Engineer on the biggest baddest Starship ever? Really? Is it because he alone was able to coax more Warp Speed from the Nacelles than anybody else, at a time and place essential to the successful completion of the mission to save all of the Federation? his ability to manipulate transporter technology, despite his naysaying superior's? His skills and abilities, tested under the greatest duress, are excatloy why he is proven to be the best possible holder of this position.
Uhura, her key skills replaced the senior comm tech on the bridge, her research and work and skills in this critical juncture are what was needed to successfully complete this mission, without which would be complete failure. This is why she would be the best comm tech on the bridge.
There comes a time when Starfleet must understand that the chairwarmer Captains they have nurtured and coddled like the 7 that just got themselves obliterated are the result of a training system which must be jettisoned in favor of these brash, competent new officers who have so bravely displayed the best Starfleet has to offer, and that time is now. The ultra-chairwarmers at Starfleet wisely understood they themselves are not the answer.

This will be the best crew to spend 5 years on a mission far away from Starfleet, exploring strange new worlds and new civilizations. The Chairwarmers cuddled at Starfleet are not the best they have to offer.

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 1:32 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

You need to see it again. When Captain Pike was leaving to surrender to Nero he promoted Kirk to First Officer, and he made Spock acting Captain. Spock was not thrilled about that, but Kirk earned that battlefield commission because he recognized what was really going on over Vulcan. Kirk saved all their lives, and also Pike knew that young Kirk had the potential and qualities of his father. After Spock attacked Kirk he relinquished command to Kirk, who became acting Captain. The entire crew was young, and that's typical of military situations, and a brand new starship. Nothing elementary schoolish here. Just great storytelling on an epic scale.



That explains a temporary field commission, sure. But I don't think there's any way in hell an organization like the Federation would then make that promotion permanent. Making a cadet Captain of the frakkin flagship is stretching credibility beyond it's limits.

That was one of the few problems I had with the script.

But I let is slide, knowing they were essentially unable to finish the script - The writer's strike went into effect in the middle of a re-write. Abrams commented several times durring filming that there were portions of the script he was unhappy with, but had no choice but to film what they had. I tend to think, with a little extra polish, issues like this promotion would have been worked out.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."


Starfleet just lost all of their Galaxy class staarships in one fell swoop. Pike was about to do the same, except that Kirk's doggedness helped Pike realize his error.
Name on other person on board Enterprise who deserved to be in the Captains seat more - who had saved the entire ship, the entire crew, the entire remains of the fleet. No One. Not one single other person. Every single other person was perfectly willing to head into the slaughter even tho Kirk was telling them what a mistake it was.
A Battlefield Promotion is givien under the harshest conditions, where the mettle of the man is most gratly tested.
Kirk was the only person suited to fill that chair after Pike, and that is why Pike promoted him to first Officer, knowing full well he was second in command after Spock. If you were an Admiral and did not realize the wisdom of this, you need to be decommisioned or retired post hence.
Now, Spock ejecting him from the ship - that was lousy storytelling.



Did you even read what I wrote....? Again, you're talking the field commission in a time of emergency. And I agree, it works in that context, because there was no-one else to step-up.

I am talking about the end, when they officially put him in permanent command. I highly doubt there was not ONE single officer in ALL of Starfleet whith more experience than Kirk. That is where this falls apart.

A field commission is for times of emergency. And no matter how well he did with that command, he would not be given permanent command of the flagship as a cadet. It's just silly.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."


I do understand we may differ on viewpoint.
Kirk's Commission was a Battlefield Commisiion. In another Trek story, superior officers have remarked how they had difficulty reprimanding a brash Officer why had just saved their lives, and every single person on Earth was just saved by Kirk. Kirk also, after being placed In Command, effectively Commanded the Enterprise in Battle, where the stakes for all Earthdwellers, as well as all Federation Planets, were at maximum.
Also consider that, like Kirk in the future, one must step down from Admiralty to Command as Captain, and did anybody at Starfleet want to do that?
The Reins of Command are normally not best used to Halt or Slow the mustangs in your forces, but rather to merely aim them in the right direction, and see how far they go and how fast they get there. This is what the wisest of Starfleet knew, and did with Kirk in this story.

Why is nobody complaining about the promotions of Scotty, Uhura, or Bones. Bones seems most suspect - what did he contribute to the mission that prohibits another more experienced MD from being placed over him upon return to Starfleet?
Scotty, exiled to a backwash where no other human resides, suddenly the Chief Engineer on the biggest baddest Starship ever? Really? Is it because he alone was able to coax more Warp Speed from the Nacelles than anybody else, at a time and place essential to the successful completion of the mission to save all of the Federation? his ability to manipulate transporter technology, despite his naysaying superior's? His skills and abilities, tested under the greatest duress, are excatloy why he is proven to be the best possible holder of this position.
Uhura, her key skills replaced the senior comm tech on the bridge, her research and work and skills in this critical juncture are what was needed to successfully complete this mission, without which would be complete failure. This is why she would be the best comm tech on the bridge.
There comes a time when Starfleet must understand that the chairwarmer Captains they have nurtured and coddled like the 7 that just got themselves obliterated are the result of a training system which must be jettisoned in favor of these brash, competent new officers who have so bravely displayed the best Starfleet has to offer, and that time is now. The ultra-chairwarmers at Starfleet wisely understood they themselves are not the answer.

This will be the best crew to spend 5 years on a mission far away from Starfleet, exploring strange new worlds and new civilizations. The Chairwarmers cuddled at Starfleet are not the best they have to offer.


JSF...You've really got passion in your writings, and I enjoy your posts very much. I also enjoy your stinging posts in the RWED. Thanks!

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 3:44 AM

2BY2GINGERBLUE


I agree the second time around was better. I could focus on other things on the screen and not on the story so much. I saw it on IMAXX and it was Sweet!

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 4:31 AM

STEAMER


My personal favourite TOS film is, and ever shall be, Wrath of Khan. But I definitely agree that '09 is better the second time (they say you get to do the weird stuff) even when you see it twice in one 25-hour period.



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Thursday, May 21, 2009 5:41 AM

JAYNESMANE


I still have yet to see it! Grr..

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 6:48 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

I do understand we may differ on viewpoint.
Kirk's Commission was a Battlefield Commisiion. In another Trek story, superior officers have remarked how they had difficulty reprimanding a brash Officer why had just saved their lives, and every single person on Earth was just saved by Kirk. Kirk also, after being placed In Command, effectively Commanded the Enterprise in Battle, where the stakes for all Earthdwellers, as well as all Federation Planets, were at maximum.



All wll and good for a temporary field commission - still don't buy it rationalizing the permanent promotion of a cadet who hadn't even graduated yet, to captain of the flippin Flagship.

Quote:

Also consider that, like Kirk in the future, one must step down from Admiralty to Command as Captain, and did anybody at Starfleet want to do that?


They lost 7 ships. Seven. Not the whole damned fleet. There were surely other captains out there.

Quote:

The Reins of Command are normally not best used to Halt or Slow the mustangs in your forces, but rather to merely aim them in the right direction, and see how far they go and how fast they get there. This is what the wisest of Starfleet knew, and did with Kirk in this story.


Wise commanders would also realize that the kid may have just gotten lucky. And let's be real here - without help from Old Spock, he never would have pulled it off anyway.

Still pretty damned thin rationelle. They made him captain at the end because that's what people expect - not for any logical story reasons.

Try applying your logic to the current military. A cadet on a aircraft carrier - call it the Enterprise for pairity if you like - stops a nuclear detonation, stopping a war that could well have ended the world. And the captain of the vessel is incapacitated in the process. Now, maybe under extreme circumstances, the cadet could take command for a short time. Do you honestly think they'd then give him the ship permanently....? Seriously?

Quote:

Why is nobody complaining about the promotions of Scotty, Uhura, or Bones. Bones seems most suspect - what did he contribute to the mission that prohibits another more experienced MD from being placed over him upon return to Starfleet?
Scotty, exiled to a backwash where no other human resides, suddenly the Chief Engineer on the biggest baddest Starship ever? Really? Is it because he alone was able to coax more Warp Speed from the Nacelles than anybody else, at a time and place essential to the successful completion of the mission to save all of the Federation? his ability to manipulate transporter technology, despite his naysaying superior's? His skills and abilities, tested under the greatest duress, are excatloy why he is proven to be the best possible holder of this position.
Uhura, her key skills replaced the senior comm tech on the bridge, her research and work and skills in this critical juncture are what was needed to successfully complete this mission, without which would be complete failure. This is why she would be the best comm tech on the bridge.



I agree they were implausible too, but at least Uhura and Scotty had graduated the academy, and Bones may have been on a different promotion path as a medic than Command staff would be. He mentioned when he brought Kirk to the Enterprise that he was already on the senior medical staff.

Quote:

There comes a time when Starfleet must understand that the chairwarmer Captains they have nurtured and coddled like the 7 that just got themselves obliterated are the result of a training system which must be jettisoned in favor of these brash, competent new officers who have so bravely displayed the best Starfleet has to offer, and that time is now. The ultra-chairwarmers at Starfleet wisely understood they themselves are not the answer.

This will be the best crew to spend 5 years on a mission far away from Starfleet, exploring strange new worlds and new civilizations. The Chairwarmers cuddled at Starfleet are not the best they have to offer.



Now that's just some logic-strained made-up bs to rationalize a silly plot hole. Please.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 6:54 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:

Now that's just some logic-strained made-up bs to rationalize a silly plot hole. Please.


I agree, but if a movie is entertaining, like STII or STIV, I find myself able to go with it.



The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 8:06 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Also consider that, like Kirk in the future, one must step down from Admiralty to Command as Captain, and did anybody at Starfleet want to do that?

So here again is the assumption, being repeated over and over, that there are no viable experienced officers in San Francisco to command the Enterprise. Not one. There are only Admirals and cadets. Search the halls of starfleet academy if you'd like but you shall not find one single Commander, Lt. Commander, Lt., Lt Jr G, or an ensign. Also lets not ignore that there are no captains either: either commanding another ship, themselves shipless (teaching perhaps) or retired (Jon Archer). No sir, you cannot find anyone either on campus or off as experienced and battle tested as James T. Kirk, Cadet. Not even Spock who has 11 years in the service of starfleet.

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 8:09 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
They lost 7 ships. Seven. Not the whole damned fleet. There were surely other captains out there.

Hear, hear.

The ships lost were 7 of the 8 in earth orbit spacedock.

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 8:30 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
there are no viable experienced officers in San Francisco to command the Enterprise. Not one. There are only Admirals and cadets. Search the halls of starfleet academy if you'd like but you shall not find one single Commander, Lt. Commander, Lt., Lt Jr G, or an ensign. Also lets not ignore that there are no captains either: either commanding another ship, themselves shipless (teaching perhaps) or retired (Jon Archer). No sir, you cannot find anyone either on campus or off as experienced and battle tested as James T. Kirk, Cadet. Not even Spock who has 11 years in the service of starfleet.



Movie.




The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 8:59 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Movie.



Really?



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Thursday, May 21, 2009 10:33 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:

Now that's just some logic-strained made-up bs to rationalize a silly plot hole. Please.


I agree, but if a movie is entertaining, like STII or STIV, I find myself able to go with it.



The laughing Chrisisall



Me, too. I thought I'd made it clear that I dug the shit out of it. That does not mean, however, that I am blind to it's flaws, or that they're not worth discussing.

And yeah, it's a movie. So? You're on a TV/Movie fansite. These are the things that are discussed in such place. And excusing away poor writing by saying it's "just a movie" is one of the most infuriatingly lazy defenses ever.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 11:33 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
And excusing away poor writing by saying it's "just a movie" is one of the most infuriatingly lazy defenses ever.


You wanna change the way major motion pictures are written & produced, go ahead.
Me? I'll enjoy what I can, and bypass the rest.
And produce my own PERFECT material.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 11:37 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
And excusing away poor writing by saying it's "just a movie" is one of the most infuriatingly lazy defenses ever.


You wanna change the way major motion pictures are written & produced, go ahead.



Huh? And what does that have to do with my statement.....?

I wasn't talking about how they're made. I'm talking about lame excuses. I have no idea what you're going on about now.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 12:10 PM

ROCKETJOCK


While I agree Kirk’s jump from Cadet to Captain was a bit of a stretch, I don’t think it's unjustifiable dramatically. Consider:

1. While Kirk was a hot-headed rebel-without-a-clue in civilian life, we don’t know that this attitude persisted at the Academy. Outside of possibly dubious taste in bed-partners, Kirk’s only major departure from discipline was his response to the Kobiyashi Maru test – a response that, in the prime universe, won him a commendation for original thinking! If his hearing had not been interrupted by the call to arms, the same thing might have happened in the alternate reality.

2. Kirk wasn’t technically a stowaway; Bones was playing sea-lawyer, but Kirk only did what a superior officer told him to. (Not being on suspension, McCoy technically ranked him. I’ll admit, how this would all play out at a Captain’s Mast is another question.)

3. Pike’s appointing Kirk XO was not capricious. He obviously had taken a personal interest in Kirk, and had some idea of the young man’s potential – and with 90%+ of his crew untried Cadets, and what seasoned officers he had needed at their duty posts, it was his best option. And notice, he placed Spock, one of those few, as acting CO.

4. When all’s said and done, Kirk’s command has not just saved Earth, he very likely saved the UFP itself -- (Nero’s proclaimed intention was to destroy all Federation homeworlds, remember, and he had the means to do so.) Plus, he’s also handed Starfleet the secret of Transwarp Transportation, with all the tactical advantage that implies. He's earned that command, baby!

5. Finally, while Starfleet obviously owes a great deal to U.S. Naval tradition, it is not the U.S. Navy, and we have little idea what precedents might exist in their history to justify advancing a Cadet to command rank. Who knows what early-era Wesley Crusher may have pulled the UFP's ashes out of the fire between Archer and Pike. . .

And as to the side issue of Spock’s marooning of Kirk – I see this as the first evidence of his “Emotional Compromise”. After all, in TOS it was shown that Spock could telepathically “feel” the death of a single shipload of Vulcans at great distance – how much worse to feel the death of literal billions from close orbit. It’s a wonder he wasn’t reduced to a vegetable.


"I have been, and always shall be, your friend." -- Spock Prime

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 1:28 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:


Huh? And what does that have to do with my statement.....?

I wasn't talking about how they're made. I'm talking about lame excuses. I have no idea what you're going on about now.


Movies are made by dudes like you and me, but sometimes with less technical knowledge & creativity... just connections. We gotta like 'em or not, but true genius is a rarity in big money entertainment. JJ is creative, but not a genius. Take his stuff for what it's worth.
Movies are what they are- big on looks and generally small on intellect.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 1:29 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by RocketJock:
it was shown that Spock could telepathically “feel” the death of a single shipload of Vulcans at great distance – how much worse to feel the death of literal billions from close orbit. It’s a wonder he wasn’t reduced to a vegetable.



Good point.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 3:39 PM

MACBAKER


Quote:

Originally posted by RocketJock:

And as to the side issue of Spock’s marooning of Kirk – I see this as the first evidence of his “Emotional Compromise”. After all, in TOS it was shown that Spock could telepathically “feel” the death of a single shipload of Vulcans at great distance – how much worse to feel the death of literal billions from close orbit. It’s a wonder he wasn’t reduced to a vegetable.

"I have been, and always shall be, your friend." -- Spock Prime



I've seen a lot of nitpicking over the Delta Vega scene, where Spock witnesses the destruction of Vulcan. In a literal sense, it's impossible for the view shown to happen. For Vulcan to appear that close, Delta Vega would have to be a moon orbiting around Vulcan. Two problems there. One, Vulcan has no moons! Two, Vulcan is a hot planet, which suggests it's close to it's star, so any moon in orbit around this "hot" planet would probably not be an ice planet.

I didn't take this scene as literal. I took it as a visual representation of what Spock saw and felt in his mind, as billions of Vulcans died in a matter of minutes.

In the original series (as you noted) Spock felt the Defiant die light years away. Spock surely felt the death of Vulcan the same way!

I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 5:00 PM

GOOSE5068


I thought the movie was good as a stand alone movie not as part of the Star Trek series. What the movie did was disregard everything that was enstalled in the origional series and all the other series. There were so many inconsistancies that I wish the movie was never made. Also don't even get me started on the beaming sequences. This movie was a low blow to any Star Trek fan out there in my opinion. In my opinion this movie can never be part of Star Trek cannon.

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 7:08 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Speaking of Archer, what happened there? Wasn't Star Trek: Enterprise set on the Enterprise? the NCC1701 prime? So in this movie, it was just built, right? So Archer has nt yet happpened, is that it?
Forgive my ignorance, I wasn't able to follow Enterprise much.

Am I confused about this? Is it explained?

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Friday, May 22, 2009 3:09 AM

ROCKETJOCK


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Speaking of Archer, what happened there? Wasn't Star Trek: Enterprise set on the Enterprise? the NCC1701 prime?



Nope, Archer's Enterprise was an earlier version than Kirk's, Reg # NX-01.

"So, the Enterprise has had its maiden voyage, has it? She is one well-endowed lady! I'd like to get my hands on her ample nacelles if you'll pardon the engineering parlance." -- Montgomery Scott

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Friday, May 22, 2009 3:16 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by MacBaker:
Vulcan is a hot planet, which suggests it's close to it's star, so any moon in orbit around this "hot" planet would probably not be an ice planet.


There are many conditions under which that could be possible; my problem was with the seeming Earth-norm gravity...


The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, May 22, 2009 5:20 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:


Huh? And what does that have to do with my statement.....?

I wasn't talking about how they're made. I'm talking about lame excuses. I have no idea what you're going on about now.


Movies are made by dudes like you and me, but sometimes with less technical knowledge & creativity... just connections. We gotta like 'em or not, but true genius is a rarity in big money entertainment. JJ is creative, but not a genius. Take his stuff for what it's worth.
Movies are what they are- big on looks and generally small on intellect.


The laughing Chrisisall



I still don't accept that. Lazy rationalization. I'm not saying these guys are geniuses... but some things are flippin obviouse.

But that excuse is bollocks, flat out. You're only making suh a lame excuse because you like the film, and don't want to be critical of any part. If someone were to use that excuse with you for a movie they loved, but you didn't, you'd find it just as weak.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, May 22, 2009 5:22 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Speaking of Archer, what happened there? Wasn't Star Trek: Enterprise set on the Enterprise? the NCC1701 prime? So in this movie, it was just built, right? So Archer has nt yet happpened, is that it?
Forgive my ignorance, I wasn't able to follow Enterprise much.

Am I confused about this? Is it explained?



Geez, the ships don't even look simmilar.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, May 22, 2009 5:48 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
If someone were to use that excuse with you for a movie they loved, but you didn't, you'd find it just as weak.


True.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, May 22, 2009 10:24 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by MacBaker:
Vulcan is a hot planet, which suggests it's close to it's star

Speaking as an astronomer, Vulcan does not have to be close to it's parent star at all. Vulcan is a planet that is volcanically active. So is Io, a moon of jupiter. Io is pulled and pushed by gravity causing internal give and take. This heats up the core and causes magma to burst forth.

What I'm getting at is that the proximity of a planet to a star does not bear upon that planet's vulcanic behavior. I once read a great non-canon explaination that Vulcan was hot because there was a gas giant in an orbit much like Mars exists in our star system. As Vulcan orbits it passes close to the gas giant once a year (actually slightly more than a year since the giant orbits too) and at that time the star pulls Vulcan one way and the giant another. The result is an annual series of eruptions that exist as a part of the Vulcan cultural life.

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Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:47 AM

SHINY


What bugged me more than the promotions was the fact that there wasn't a single ship (or even shuttle) anywhere on Vulcan or Earth that tried to attack the cable holding up the drill. I understand not being able to stand up in a full fire-fight with the superior ship, but come on, it's a freaking cable!!!

That said, I still loved the movie. :)

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