OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

SPOILERS!!! Discussion of Inception

POSTED BY: JEWELSTAITEFAN
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 19:07
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Tuesday, August 10, 2010 7:24 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by lwaves:
That Hawthorne guy obviously didn't get the movie or the reason for the architecture styles in the dream levels.
It's purpose was that they didn't want Fischer to know he was dreaming until they told him. This means that each level had to look realistic to Fischers POV. If Ariadne had put the Eiffel Tower or the some other famous building in the LA chase scene Fischer would know it wasn't real. Same thing if they'd used fantastical architecture or physics (like the city folding over) that too would have told him something was wrong and the plan would have failed.

As for cliches then every single movie and TV show out there uses cliches, including Serenity. You can't escape it. The guy needs to loosen up a lot or stop watching movies.

You are exactly right! I copied over some comments that make your point (and more) from http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2010/08/cliche-and-pastiche-in-incep
tion
/

water balloon says: I don’t understand the criticism. She built a world for a specific purpose, to trick someone into believing he wasn’t dreaming. Why would she waste time making the architecture original?

Matt B says: It seems to me that a movie with so much metaphysical stuff going on needs to have a substantial number of familiar beats & reference points so the audience can pay attention to the unique stuff without getting lost in the weeds.

James Gary says: “Inception” is a factory-standard heist film with two tons of of pretentious gobbledegook strapped to the roof using bungee cords.

bdbd says: All the stuff James Gary describes as strapped on was part of the fun. My 15 yr old son thought it was cool, which is as it should be. If overly thought out architectural details, innovations and whatnot were added, the whole thing would have been very twee, although more satisfying perhaps for architecture critics.

LaFollette Progressive says: I thought the act of inception itself was executed very well and held the story together as something a bit more than just a dumb heist flick. But it also works pretty well as a dumb heist flick.

lfv says: A huge amount of the criticism seems to be centered around how disappointed people are that the dreams aren’t completely crazy and weird… um, my dreams are weird, I guess, but in subtle ways. In general, they are pretty much like real life. I’m not flying around in some psychedelic universe populated by Martians.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, August 10, 2010 12:07 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


JSF - yes, that's what I understood from when Cobb found Mal's totem in the doll house. Here's someone else saying it for me: "Now, did Cobb really kill Mal? Yes, but accidentally. In the past,when Cobb and Mal were experimenting with the dreams they went so deep that they got lost in their dreams. Mal was convinced that their dreams were reality and thus locked her totem (the top) in her safe. The safes signify a person's sub-conscious. We see Mal's safe and we also see Fischer's safe where he hears his father's dying request. Back to Cobb and Mal. Since Cobb started the top spinning in the safe, an idea was planted in Mal's subconscious that her reality was a dream. This allowed Cobb to convince her that the dream state they were in wasn't reality and further convinced her to let the train run over them and bring them back to reality. However, since he planted the idea in her subconscious she forever thought that reality was a dream to the point of killing herself. This is how Cobb found out about Inception. Thus, Cobb essentially killed Mal by planting an idea in her subconscience that her reality was a dream.

In the end, he had to let her go, forgive himself, and stop Mal from guilting him by killing her in Limbo."

http://www.bomann.org/

The scene where Mal jumps is Reality but she thinks it's a dream... another one of Cobb's broken rules.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 11:01 AM

LWAVES


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Now, did Cobb really kill Mal? Yes, but accidentally.

The scene where Mal jumps is Reality but she thinks it's a dream... another one of Cobb's broken rules.



I agree with the other points about how Cobb discovered Inception, how it was effectively his fault that Mal 'killed herself'.
But I still question that what we see is reality. It's part of the reason I think the movie has done so well and why this thread is still going. That these various possibilities exist. So I'll submit some more thoughts, evidence and theories on why it's a dream.

I give you someone who hasn't been mentioned much - Miles.

If Cobb's kids live in LA with their grandparents (Miles and I assume Miles's wife) why does Miles work in Paris? He's at a college (maybe a professor) so he has to be there at least several days of the week. Isn't it a bit much to go back and forth each week. Not impossible I grant you and he's probably not the only person, but why not work in LA or live in Paris.

If Mal really is dead and it is reality then as far as the real world is concerned Cobb killed her. He is a wanted man. The letters from the psychiatrists and Cobb's inability to enter the US enforce this point. So as Mal's father the only evidence Miles has against Cobb being a killer would be Cobb's word. I just can't believe that he'd take his word over all the other evidence and his own feelings towards his daughter. And yet we see Miles help him to perform another inception (the very thing that effectively killed Mal) and he greets him warmly at the end and takes him home to the kids. These don't seem like the actions someone would take towards Cobb, even if you believed in some way that he was telling the truth. I got the idea that Mal's inception was supposed to be the first ever, so if Cobb told him this and explained it would he really believe it was an accident, and then forgive him for it?

So I still side on the theory that it's all a dream, every bit of film, with the intent of getting Cobb out of dreams and back to the real reality where Mal is alive. Everything we see still happens, it's not one of those 'it's a dream so nothing really happened' shots that longer running TV shows like to use. Everything still happened just one level deeper than what the film shows.



"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall

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Tuesday, August 17, 2010 2:46 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by lwaves:
Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
The constructs as autonomous? No. Mal wreaks havoc everywhere, conspiring with Saito in the audition piece, shooting Fischer. If she is a construct of Cobb's, as Cobb thinks.



Mal is a memory, or at least a construct from memory, not just something thats been made up. Cobb tells Ariadne that you don't use memories or real locations even though he has broken these rules himself. I took it that because she was a memory it made her stronger (dangerous?) and she could break through into the dreams featuring Cobb by using his guilt. Or something along those lines.


Fischer used his memory to construct Brownlee (with the impersonator's help) and used his memory of him plus his dispostion towards him.
Mal is downright treasonous, colluding with the enemy (exposing the safe scam to Saito in the interview) and shooting his partner as well. If she is Cobb's construct, he must really hate her, which was not really the impression given in the rest of the film (albeit shown from Cobb's POV). I'm not yet buying that he would construct her so antagonisticly.

A separate point, if she is Cobb's construct, then he himself wants to go to limboland, causing her to kill Fischer so he'll go and force Cobb to follow? Are you saying Cobb does this via Mal because he realizes he must go to limbo to find Saito before he returns to his "reality" in the plane, but he cannot convince himself or the others to do so without Mal intervening and shooting Fischer?
Quote:


Quote:


After watching a second time, I wondered if Murphy and Caine are the only carryovers Nolan brought from Batman. Anybody know?



I know and I'm not telling.
Actually there is another. Murphy and Caine both appeared in both Batman movies and Ken Watanabe also played the 'fake' Ra's Al Ghul in Batman Begins.


Ah, yes. Thanks.

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Tuesday, August 17, 2010 2:56 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
JSF - yes, that's what I understood from when Cobb found Mal's totem in the doll house. Here's someone else saying it for me: "Now, did Cobb really kill Mal? Yes, but accidentally. In the past,when Cobb and Mal were experimenting with the dreams they went so deep that they got lost in their dreams. Mal was convinced that their dreams were reality and thus locked her totem (the top) in her safe. The safes signify a person's sub-conscious. We see Mal's safe and we also see Fischer's safe where he hears his father's dying request. Back to Cobb and Mal. Since Cobb started the top spinning in the safe, an idea was planted in Mal's subconscious that her reality was a dream. This allowed Cobb to convince her that the dream state they were in wasn't reality and further convinced her to let the train run over them and bring them back to reality.


But he was very clear that the reason she should trust him was because it doesn't matter where they are going as long as they are going together. He wasn't going with her on the jump, so she should have trusted him that they were not in a dream (as far as Cobb was concerned). I do not see this as the fault of Cobb, or his causing this.
Also, some viewers seem to suggest that the totem in the safe was in reality, but it was in the dream, where he was right to do it, and she should have checked her totem - or the top - to verify that it was not spinning, and therefore reality. This has nothing to do with Cobb doing anything in reality to cause Mal to become delusioned.
Quote:


However, since he planted the idea in her subconscious she forever thought that reality was a dream to the point of killing herself. This is how Cobb found out about Inception. Thus, Cobb essentially killed Mal by planting an idea in her subconscience that her reality was a dream.

In the end, he had to let her go, forgive himself, and stop Mal from guilting him by killing her in Limbo."

http://www.bomann.org/

The scene where Mal jumps is Reality but she thinks it's a dream... another one of Cobb's broken rules.



You might want to claim that the inception can override, overrule, and dominate logical thought so much that Cobb's explaining to Mal that they are in reality and the dream they were in was just a dream, but everybody else apparently was not susceptible. Do you think if Fischer was told it was all just a dream he wouldn't follow through with the breakup? When Saito came out of the audition dream, he was able to comprehend that he'd been in 2 levels of dream. Everbody else was able to go down many levels of dream and come back out and understand not only in advance what they would do at each level, but also keep track of which level they were at, and which level they had returned to.
If Mal's comprehension was so faulty that she could not do what almost anybody else coud do, how is her defect Cobb's fault? Guilt is one thing, and he may feel it, but no sane person could blame him for her lack of sense.

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Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:25 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by lwaves:

I give you someone who hasn't been mentioned much - Miles.


If Mal really is dead and it is reality then as far as the real world is concerned Cobb killed her. He is a wanted man. The letters from the psychiatrists and Cobb's inability to enter the US enforce this point. So as Mal's father the only evidence Miles has against Cobb being a killer would be Cobb's word. I just can't believe that he'd take his word over all the other evidence and his own feelings towards his daughter. And yet we see Miles help him to perform another inception (the very thing that effectively killed Mal)....
I got the idea that Mal's inception was supposed to be the first ever, so if Cobb told him this and explained it would he really believe it was an accident, and then forgive him for it?



Mal's inception was an accidental one. Miles most likely understood this. If the film is in reality then Miles mentions to Cobb that Cobb wants to borrow "another one of his students" for more of the dreamwork that Miles understands. Thus Miles has a vastly better understanding of the dreamwork that Mal and Cobb were doing, and perhaps talked more with Mal about it, before her death - compared to the authorities who don't understand any of it. Miles does not have only Cobb's word after the fact, Miles was apparently fully aware of their dreamwork before her death, so he would be able to know the story was not made up by Cobb of whole cloth. An accident it might be, but not a complete fabrication created only after Mal's death.
Cobb also has worked to include better "safeguards" in the process, trying to help everybody from getting lost or confused. And Miles would understand the improvements in the practice.

Som time has now passed since recent posts, so I'll add another wrinkle.
Cobb seems to break most of the rules he tells others. He explains things one way, but that's not always how things actually are.

The film, or Cobb's explanation, seems to indicate the dream levels are directly up and down, even though many people are sharing the dream. Apparently all the players must also be present in the upper level dream in order to participate in the next lower level dream, except for limboland where anybody can drop to from any other level.
What if this is not really so? what if a lateral move can be made, to jump from one dream to another dream - either one also a level lower than the parent dream (a sibling dream) or even one not dreamt by other players of the current or higher levels of your dream?
If Cobb's "reality" is not really so, then by Mal not appearing anymore in his "reality" level of dream proves that Mal, working in the actual reality above to bring Cobb out of the dream they once shared, can insert herself in his dreams below the level Cobb thinks is reality, effectively skipping a level herself (at this point you can start to speculate which of the Mals were constructs of Cobb's - if any - and which were Mal herself, or a construct of one of the people trying to help Mal bring Cobb back).
So what if Mal and friends are trying to dream and perhaps use several levels - there likely would be a need for similar level compatibility or else the chronopacing would be off - one player's minute would be 20 minutes in the other player's dream. Maybe they are trying to create a dream level that Cobb will drop into, not knowing it was already created before the players in his dream also dropped into it.
So how can two sets of players, in separate dreams, get into each others dream worlds? Up in reality, Mal and friends must hope that Cobb keeps thinking about the wife he lost (in the dream they once shared but he is now alone in) and when he is thinking about her, or he constructs her in his dream and that provides a link for her and her dream and her friends and helpers to "connect" the 2 dreams - sort of like 2 stargates linked by a wormhole, but for dreams.
Maybe Cobb and Mal had not explored this possibility, but after Mal returned to reality she did discover this, but Cobb still doesn't know. So she could be using this to try to trick Cobb into jumping to a parallel dream where she'll have more control and can convince him to come back up to reality.
For those who think the end does not indicate that Cobb escaped limbo, try this on for size now.

After all, these are dreams we're talking about - anything can happen. And nothing else that's presented seems to follow the rules every time - so why should the depth and level structure, as understood by Cobb.

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Tuesday, August 17, 2010 4:08 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


After digesting my above post, you might notice that the end of the film was a critical juncture.
Cobb was going to kill his Mal in limboland (or some say that anyhow). If he does, then Mal and friends will lose their "in" or their link to access his dream (reality) or his levels of dream below that. So they would need to make their move before he kills her, or make themselves a new link they could use. If they are successful and get him into a parallel dream (another "branch" of the "dream tree" like siblings in a family tree), then the sequel could find them getting Cobb to come up from the "new" dream and back to reality (with Mal).
If they are not successful, they will need to find another way to link their dreams, or insert into Cobb's dream. Then we might not see Mal in the sequel or the third installment, but Mal and her team might finally find a different way to link and appear in the 4th or later installment of this saga.

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Wednesday, August 18, 2010 1:24 AM

LWAVES


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Mal's inception was an accidental one. Miles most likely understood this. If the film is in reality then Miles mentions to Cobb that Cobb wants to borrow "another one of his students" for more of the dreamwork that Miles understands.



Yes it was an accident and I can agree that Miles probably knows as well. But if Miles is in true reality and Mal really is dead then look at it this way.
If you helped someone get a gun (say for hunting or whatever) and then they accidently shot someone you love very much, you may understand that it was an accident, you may even be forgiving but would you help them to get another gun? It may just be my way but I certainly wouldn't help them to get one in the same way that I can't see Miles helping Cobb in the way he did. Even though I agree that Miles would understand dreams far better than Cobb, he did teach them so there may be some guilt on Miles's part for that. I just can't see Miles putting the life of an innocent (Ariadne) into that potential danger knowing what happened to his daughter.
This is more of what leads me to think it's all a dream. Ariadne picks things up quicker than anyone before (Cobb remarks to that) and she almost forces Cobb to face his past by going into his memory/dreams and asking questions etc. I definitely think she was a plant, maybe had some training (from Miles?) beforehand or at least knew what to expect. I mean, she's a student and she didn't even question the fact that this job 'wasn't exactly legal', she just appeared to accept it.

Quote:


Cobb seems to break most of the rules he tells others. He explains things one way, but that's not always how things actually are.



This is one point that leads me again to think that it's all a dream. He says one thing but does or has done another thing. The rules appear to be of his making for the most part, maybe because of what happened to Mal. If we take that idea further to say that all (or most) of the important points about Cobb aren't necessarily true then it backs up some of my ideas. I'm not saying that they're outright lies, just not correct as we see them. We know he breaks his own rules so that's covered. If he thinks he's in reality then he isn't. He thinks Mal is dead but she isn't. His/Mal's totem isn't telling him the truth, a point I made awhile ago about his totem not being right I just hadn't had the thoughts to piece it all together.

On another note regarding the meaning of names people have connected the name Cobb to Cobol, the company that is after him. Maybe but I have another one that I will state now that I am not serious about, I just want to play around a little bit.
Over here in England we have a word called cobblers that means lies. Nolan is English so he he would know the word. Connection?


Quote:


The film, or Cobb's explanation, seems to indicate the dream levels are directly up and down, even though many people are sharing the dream. Apparently all the players must also be present in the upper level dream in order to participate in the next lower level dream, except for limboland where anybody can drop to from any other level.
What if this is not really so? what if a lateral move can be made, to jump from one dream to another dream - either one also a level lower than the parent dream (a sibling dream) or even one not dreamt by other players of the current or higher levels of your dream?
If Cobb's "reality" is not really so, then by Mal not appearing anymore in his "reality" level of dream proves that Mal, working in the actual reality above to bring Cobb out of the dream they once shared, can insert herself in his dreams below the level Cobb thinks is reality, effectively skipping a level herself (at this point you can start to speculate which of the Mals were constructs of Cobb's - if any - and which were Mal herself, or a construct of one of the people trying to help Mal bring Cobb back).
So what if Mal and friends are trying to dream and perhaps use several levels - there likely would be a need for similar level compatibility or else the chronopacing would be off - one player's minute would be 20 minutes in the other player's dream. Maybe they are trying to create a dream level that Cobb will drop into, not knowing it was already created before the players in his dream also dropped into it.
So how can two sets of players, in separate dreams, get into each others dream worlds? Up in reality, Mal and friends must hope that Cobb keeps thinking about the wife he lost (in the dream they once shared but he is now alone in) and when he is thinking about her, or he constructs her in his dream and that provides a link for her and her dream and her friends and helpers to "connect" the 2 dreams - sort of like 2 stargates linked by a wormhole, but for dreams.
Maybe Cobb and Mal had not explored this possibility, but after Mal returned to reality she did discover this, but Cobb still doesn't know. So she could be using this to try to trick Cobb into jumping to a parallel dream where she'll have more control and can convince him to come back up to reality.
For those who think the end does not indicate that Cobb escaped limbo, try this on for size now.

After all, these are dreams we're talking about - anything can happen. And nothing else that's presented seems to follow the rules every time - so why should the depth and level structure, as understood by Cobb.



I'm not saying you're wrong about jumping from one dream to another laterally, it's an interesting idea, but I don't agree with it. I do believe that you have to be connected together to share a dream and jumping to another would require a disconnection and reconnection to another device in the reality level. Nice idea though.
As for jumping over a level then I can buy that. Oddly when you commented on my point about Mal being constructed from Cobbs memory my next thought was that maybe she was actually a dreamer who was sharing the dream with the others. I think it would be possible to join a dream after the initial people have gone in. In fact it's necessary for it if the whole film is a dream. So I can quite believe that Mal does this.



"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall

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Wednesday, August 18, 2010 3:11 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by lwaves:
Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:



Yes it was an accident and I can agree that Miles probably knows as well. But if Miles is in true reality and Mal really is dead then look at it this way....


If every pioneer stopped what they were doing after the first accidental fatality, the human race would have never advanced, we'd still be neanderthals.
Quote:


Quote:


Cobb seems to break most of the rules he tells others. He explains things one way, but that's not always how things actually are.



This is one point that leads me again to think that it's all a dream. He says one thing but does or has done another thing. The rules appear to be of his making for the most part, maybe because of what happened to Mal. If we take that idea further to say that all (or most) of the important points about Cobb aren't necessarily true then it backs up some of my ideas. I'm not saying that they're outright lies, just not correct as we see them. We know he breaks his own rules so that's covered. If he thinks he's in reality then he isn't. He thinks Mal is dead but she isn't. His/Mal's totem isn't telling him the truth, a point I made awhile ago about his totem not being right I just hadn't had the thoughts to piece it all together.

Quote:


The film, or Cobb's explanation, seems to indicate the dream levels are directly up and down, even though many people are sharing the dream. Apparently all the players must also be present in the upper level dream in order to participate in the next lower level dream, except for limboland where anybody can drop to from any other level.
What if this is not really so? what if a lateral move can be made, to jump from one dream to another dream - either one also a level lower than the parent dream (a sibling dream) or even one not dreamt by other players of the current or higher levels of your dream?
If Cobb's "reality" is not really so, then by Mal not appearing anymore in his "reality" level of dream proves that Mal, working in the actual reality above to bring Cobb out of the dream they once shared, can insert herself in his dreams below the level Cobb thinks is reality, effectively skipping a level herself (at this point you can start to speculate which of the Mals were constructs of Cobb's - if any - and which were Mal herself, or a construct of one of the people trying to help Mal bring Cobb back).
So what if Mal and friends are trying to dream and perhaps use several levels - there likely would be a need for similar level compatibility or else the chronopacing would be off - one player's minute would be 20 minutes in the other player's dream. Maybe they are trying to create a dream level that Cobb will drop into, not knowing it was already created before the players in his dream also dropped into it.
So how can two sets of players, in separate dreams, get into each others dream worlds? Up in reality, Mal and friends must hope that Cobb keeps thinking about the wife he lost (in the dream they once shared but he is now alone in) and when he is thinking about her, or he constructs her in his dream and that provides a link for her and her dream and her friends and helpers to "connect" the 2 dreams - sort of like 2 stargates linked by a wormhole, but for dreams.
Maybe Cobb and Mal had not explored this possibility, but after Mal returned to reality she did discover this, but Cobb still doesn't know. So she could be using this to try to trick Cobb into jumping to a parallel dream where she'll have more control and can convince him to come back up to reality.
For those who think the end does not indicate that Cobb escaped limbo, try this on for size now.

After all, these are dreams we're talking about - anything can happen. And nothing else that's presented seems to follow the rules every time - so why should the depth and level structure, as understood by Cobb.



I'm not saying you're wrong about jumping from one dream to another laterally, it's an interesting idea, but I don't agree with it. I do believe that you have to be connected together to share a dream and jumping to another would require a disconnection and reconnection to another device in the reality level. Nice idea though.
As for jumping over a level then I can buy that. Oddly when you commented on my point about Mal being constructed from Cobbs memory my next thought was that maybe she was actually a dreamer who was sharing the dream with the others. I think it would be possible to join a dream after the initial people have gone in. In fact it's necessary for it if the whole film is a dream. So I can quite believe that Mal does this.



In order for Mal to do this and have similar chronopacing, she must be in the same level dream as the others. So when Cobb thinks he's in his first level and is actually in his second, Mal must also be in her second level. But she's not in Cobb's first level (anymore). Maybe once you die in a level of a dream, you can't go back into that same dream. But she does appear at any and every level below that, when Cobb is at the same level. So if she is doing this, two separate dreams are allowed to mesh at the next lower level, providing asome commonality - and Mal is the commonality in both the dreams of her team, plus Cobb's as long as he doesn't kill her off before she convinces him to come back to reality.

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Thursday, August 19, 2010 1:32 AM

LWAVES


I actually replied to this yesterday and as I posted my connection went south. I couldn't be bothered to type it all out again straight away so here is a (hopefully) more condensed version.

Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
If every pioneer stopped what they were doing after the first accidental fatality, the human race would have never advanced, we'd still be neanderthals.



I'm not saying they should stop, we know Cobb didn't and we don't know how involved Miles still is in that line of work. I'm saying that I don't see Miles helping Cobb to essentially do the same thing that ended with his daughters death. It's hinted in the movie that the technology is known about within certain circles of business so it's possible that Cobb isn't the only one that possesses it. Other people would carry on the work.

Quote:


In order for Mal to do this and have similar chronopacing, she must be in the same level dream as the others. So when Cobb thinks he's in his first level and is actually in his second, Mal must also be in her second level. But she's not in Cobb's first level (anymore). Maybe once you die in a level of a dream, you can't go back into that same dream. But she does appear at any and every level below that, when Cobb is at the same level. So if she is doing this, two separate dreams are allowed to mesh at the next lower level, providing asome commonality - and Mal is the commonality in both the dreams of her team, plus Cobb's as long as he doesn't kill her off before she convinces him to come back to reality.



I agree that the chronospacing would have to be the same which means they'd have to be in the same level or things would just get too weird. Your last comment has persuaded me of a couple of things.
First, we know that you can join a dream after it has begun. Ariadne does this to Cobb in the warehouse. To me this says that if you die in a dream and get kicked out there's no reason you couldn't just plug yourself in again. Unless it's some unknown factor of the drug like it needs time to leave your system. Of course if you did go back in any credibility to the fake reality would be gone.
Taking the plot of the movie - if you found them dreaming on the plane (the supposed reality) and joined in you would go to the next level. To go any deeper you would need to find the van and plug yourself in there. You would then go to the hotel room level and have to plug yourself in etc etc. That way the chronospacing would be right and you would have just followed the others, not jumped straight over a level(s). The only way I could see two seperate dreams (two devices) joining in some way is if there was a linking person who was somehow attached to both machines. I don't see it as which dreamers fake reality would be the one that was shared? Just seems too far for what the film shows us.
Second, I'm now convinced that Mal is not a dreamer but is just Cobbs subconcious breaking through. Even if you accept that she is hiding or whatever in Cobbs reality she would have to go through the same process above to get to each level until she arrived at the snow base. Not once do we see her before then during Fischers inception. Although to make things confusing she is wearing snow gear and she does, literally, come down from the level above (she lowers herself from the ceiling or something). Ariadne states that she's not real, that she's a projection which is backing up the idea that she's not a dreamer. Mal shoots Fischer then Cobb shoots Mal. So he does kill her.

Aaaaaahhhhhhh!!!
I love this movie and these discussions but I am really starting to wonder if we are overthinking this and trying to provide answers for stuff that we don't know because we don't get enough information from the film, like how the tech really works and what it's restrictions are.



"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall

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Wednesday, January 19, 2011 6:25 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Something that I don't think was clearly pointed out, and I lost the train of thought a few times.

Cobb seems to imply that the concept of the token was his, and also that the concept of Inception was his as well.
Yet he seems to have not token.
He uses the top as if it is his token, however it is his wife's token, and it is explained that you cannot use somebody else's token, it will give you false indications.
The top is his wife's token, so SHE did HAVE a token.
Cobb apparently DOES NOT have a token.

Was the entire concept of token his wife's idea, and Cobb just tries to pass it off as his own?
Was the concept of Inception really his wife's idea, and he passes it off as his own?
If Cobb has no token, how does he know his wife did not return to reality?
If the only one of them who HAD a token was his wife, wouldn't SHE be the one who would KNOW they were not in a dream? Cobb is the one without a reference to reality/dream.

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Wednesday, January 19, 2011 6:46 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Reviewing the last few posts, looks like I forgot to post another point.
We were thinking about how to join 2 seperate dreams. But if Mal has already seeded the level Cobb thinks is reality (if it was one of the dreams they shared architure) with her team, then the architects of the levels below are not for Cobb (as he thinks) but are actaully planned from Mal's team above in reality. Since her team members are the architects, she can just join them, and avoid Cobb seeing her at the level he thinks is reality. They do the same hiding game with Fisher.
Adriane is, after all, introduced via Miles, who would reasonably be on Mal's team.

Didn't they say that Cobb cannot be the architect of the dreams, and give some lame excuse? If his "reality" is actually his level 1 dream, that would be the real reason he cannot architect a dream at the next level.

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Wednesday, January 19, 2011 11:10 AM

BYTEMITE


The concept of the totem might have been made up FOR the dream world.

The symbolism of a totem "falling" has some very specific meaning to me, if you look at the exact definition of the word. "anything serving as a distinctive, often venerated, emblem or symbol." "1. (in some societies, esp among North American Indians) an object, species of animal or plant, or natural phenomenon symbolizing a clan, family, etc, often having ritual associations
2. a representation of such an object"

A fallen totem would be one which is abandoned. An idea or thought, in this case, about what is reality, and what is a dream.

Much like the numbers presented to Fischer, first written down in response to random numbers he came up with, then the girl he's talking to giving it to him as a phone number (who then took his wallet), then room numbers, then the combination to a locked safe. The totem was something introduced in the beginning of the movie that planted an idea, and was later explained as something more than it seemed. Something personal.

One of the problematic points is whether dying is a kick that normally returns you to full wakefulness, or if it only takes you up one dream level. We're told at some parts of the movie that it normally takes you out completely, unless you're under heavy sedatives, in which case you go to limbo and don't wake up. But in order for him to still be dreaming after the train in limbo, this would have to be wrong.

It also raises a good question about how he and his wife got to limbo in the first place if they were just experimenting. Or that limbo and the subconscious do work that way.

Either, 1) he really does wake up in reality at the end, or 2) all of the rules discussed in the dream are arbitrary parts of the dream logic, and the whole movie, start to finish, with it's "flashbacks" in odd places is a dream sequence itself, in the order it's experienced by the dreamer.

Us.

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Wednesday, January 19, 2011 11:23 AM

BYTEMITE


Sidenote: I think Leonardo DiCapprio is not a good actor. >_> He can say a line, and say it with emotion, but he always plays the same character in every movie, personality wise.

Fortunately, it worked for Inception.

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Wednesday, January 19, 2011 11:29 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Didn't they say that Cobb cannot be the architect of the dreams, and give some lame excuse? If his "reality" is actually his level 1 dream, that would be the real reason he cannot architect a dream at the next level.

That idea works well: imagine for the Inception collector's edition that the director adds a mirror to the final scene with five seconds of post-production magic. The mirror reflects Cobb sleeping in a hospital bed. His wife and children are visiting. Arthur, Ariadne, Eames, and Saito are doctor, nurse, and orderlies. The End.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Wednesday, January 19, 2011 11:37 AM

BYTEMITE


Technically, I also agree that the presentation of the dream and the physics was both pretentious and un-dream-like, which is something that bothered me.

But the ending is fun to discuss, so I wanted to throw some ideas out there.

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Wednesday, January 19, 2011 12:05 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Something that I don't think was clearly pointed out, and I lost the train of thought a few times.

Cobb seems to imply that the concept of the token was his, and also that the concept of Inception was his as well.
Yet he seems to have not token.
He uses the top as if it is his token, however it is his wife's token, and it is explained that you cannot use somebody else's token, it will give you false indications.
The top is his wife's token, so SHE did HAVE a token.
Cobb apparently DOES NOT have a token.




Though most people still havn't caught this, Cobb did have a totem - it just wasn't the top. As you poi8nted out, it was his wife's, he never claimed it to be his. His totem was never mentioned or overtly pointed out, but it's there.

It's his wedding ring. It's on his hand in every in-dream sequence, and gone during all "real world" stuff (including the end). And every scene has at least one shot that prominently features his hand (so as to track whether or not he's wearing it).

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, January 19, 2011 12:12 PM

BYTEMITE


I agree about the ring, it was actually something Mal4Prez mentioned up above. Within the frame of the movie, allowing that flashbacks and flashforwards are in fact flashbacks and flashforwards as opposed to sequential events, I think it's suggested he returned to reality.

But if people want to ask about the outcome or meaning of the movie, I think it's more meta then that. If you do take the entire movie as linear sequence, even including the flashbacks and flashforwards, there's enough (intentional) inconsistencies, particularly with the children and the supposed father in law, with reality in the movie itself, and things left unexplained, that it can be concluded the whole movie is a dream, and it's not the dream of anyone in the movie.

The totem falling/not-falling at the end is the symbol, it's the moment WE start questioning what's dream and reality. Then we wake up.

In this way, it's a very clever movie.

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Wednesday, January 19, 2011 12:34 PM

STORYMARK


What inconsistancies with the children do you mean? I've seen many people who don't think the children age, but they do. In fact, they're played by different sets of actors in the relevant scenes, to reflect the change in age.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, January 19, 2011 1:04 PM

BYTEMITE


For example, if the father of the children isn't able to raise them... Why aren't they living with their next nearest relative, such as their grandfather?

I forget who the lady on the phone was who got the children to hang up on him and what her relationship was, maybe they are. Still. There's also the issue Mal4Prez brought up that we never see anything about the pregnancy or birth of the children in the flashbacks or dreams.

I read what was posted about the kids being played by two pairs, a younger and older, but they really do look shockingly alike still (especially because we never got to see the faces of the younger pair). And the way that their poses in all their appearances, with various changes, are meant to call back to each appearance. Which is intentional, to confuse whether it's dream or reality.

You'd have to see the movie several times to catch the differences, but I can guarantee everyone watching the movie the first time, when the protagonist is watching the children almost bated breath to see if they'll run off like in the dream, everyone in the audience is too. They look enough alike each time to make you question.

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Wednesday, January 19, 2011 1:22 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
For example, if the father of the children isn't able to raise them... Why aren't they living with their next nearest relative, such as their grandfather?

I forget who the lady on the phone was who got the children to hang up on him and what her relationship was, maybe they are. Still. There's also the issue Mal4Prez brought up that we never see anything about the pregnancy or birth of the children in the flashbacks or dreams.




Hmm, none of that strikes me as important. Lack of unnessesary detail does not mean it doesn't work. Especially Mal's points - there are LOTS of things we didn't see in the flashbacks. Knowing they had kids was the important info - seeing a pregnancy or birth is pointless. And who knows what guardianship was set up? Not nessesary to the story.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, January 19, 2011 2:06 PM

BYTEMITE


Maybe, but not knowing the specifics allows that the kids, the father-in-law, heck, everything might just be the construct of a dream.

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Saturday, January 22, 2011 3:36 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Sidenote: I think Leonardo DiCapprio is not a good actor. >_> He can say a line, and say it with emotion, but he always plays the same character in every movie, personality wise.



I agree. That's why in my OP the query of him channeling Ray Liotta.

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Saturday, January 22, 2011 3:51 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Something that I don't think was clearly pointed out, and I lost the train of thought a few times.

Cobb seems to imply that the concept of the token was his, and also that the concept of Inception was his as well.
Yet he seems to have no token.
He uses the top as if it is his token, however it is his wife's token, and it is explained that you cannot use somebody else's token, it will give you false indications.
The top is his wife's token, so SHE did HAVE a token.
Cobb apparently DOES NOT have a token.




Though most people still havn't caught this, Cobb did have a totem - it just wasn't the top. As you poi8nted out, it was his wife's, he never claimed it to be his. His totem was never mentioned or overtly pointed out, but it's there.

It's his wedding ring.


I'm not buying your suggestion yet. My attempts to consider your claim find a lack of logical foundation.
Quote:


It's on his hand in every in-dream sequence, and gone during all "real world" stuff (including the end). And every scene has at least one shot that prominently features his hand (so as to track whether or not he's wearing it).



Not every scene had a shot of his ring finger.
It was on his hand in the scene when Mal jumped, as well as when he spun the top in the dollhouse safe. Are you saying this means he was dreaming when she jumped, and she returned to reality, indicating the entire film's presentation of Cobb's "reality" was actually his first level dream?
I did not see clearly at the end. On the plane there was some sunlight reflecting off something of that hand, couldn't tell if it was the ring. No shot in the Customs scene, nor the baggage scene. When he spins the top at the house, his hand flourish obscures his ring finger. Are you claiming that in some scene after awaking on plane his finger is shown to not have the ring on?

When he spins the top and cocks the gun, ready to blow his head off, he does not even glance at his ring finger, he is intently focused on the top. When the top falls, he relaxes and puts the gun back. How does this not qualify as "overtly pointed out" - at least what Cobb thinks of as his totem? Or is the top the totem for only this one scene (the audition), and then he changes totems for other scenes? Readying for suicide seems a mite bit overtly pointed to me.

The critical and pivotal scene for these purposes is the scene where Mal jumps and Cobb does not. The reference level of whether all other scenes are real or what level of dream they are are derived from the basis of this scene.
There seem to be only 3 possibilities for this scene (please exlain additional possibilities).
1. Cobb and Mal are in reality, and Mal jumps to her death. This seems to be the "face-value" presentation of the film, or at-first-glance.
2. Cobb and Mal are in one of their mutual dreams, Mal jumps and returns to reality to care for their kids while Cobb is lost to dreamworld. The entirety of the film is thus in dream world, even the end (if he returns to reality where Mal is, he would still be married and wearing the ring just like when he last left reality.)
3. Cobb is dreaming that Mal jumps, it is not Mal with him in this point of the dream, but his construct of her that jumps. From this point forward in his dream (which he considers to be reality), whenever Mal shows up, he assumes this real Mal (albeit dream-sharing) is a construct of his mind in the dream. Clearly, one option open to Mal is to return to reality herself and regroup with help to come back into his dream and get him to kick out for a reason other than her pleading.

So, at this point, in this scene, we must determine whether he is dreaming or not, what is his totem, if he has one (or had one). The claim that his wedding ring is his totem makes very little sense - if he thinks he is in reality, then he is married to Mal, why would he not be wearing a ring? They grew old together already in deeper levels of dream, wearing the ring, why would he have the ring removed at any level or even reality if he is married to Mal, prior to her jumping? Are you suggesting they are really not married, only co-workiers and merely married in their first level of shared-dream?

I am willing to consider that Cobb does not think the top is his totem, but somebody needs to convince me. Cobb is delusioned to think it is now his totem, and also he didn't seem to have a totem prior to Mal jumping. So there is no way to tell if that was a dream or reality.

I see no valid reason yet to consider the ring to be his totem. Particularly prior to the moment of Mal's lump.

I am willing to consider the ring has significance. If it is claimed that Cobb is without ring in the final scene, it could be claimed that after he left Mal in limboland, he no longer needs to wear the ring because she is no longer with him, in his mind - and this applies whether the film is shown as dreamlevel, or reality, and without regard to his state at the end - reality or dream.

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Sunday, January 23, 2011 6:31 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


And so, if it seems Cobb has no totem prior to Mal jumping, and Mal herself has the only totem prior to that, then she is the only person with a totem, and Cobb does not, so why would we think Cobb is the one who knew whether they were in a dream or reality? Other than merely because the story is told from Cobb's POV.

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Thursday, October 9, 2014 6:30 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I must review this.

Has anybody changed their thoughts about this story? Have different perspective?

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Sunday, April 12, 2015 5:05 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Good pickup. That did enter my mind during the film, because I did remember that she played Paif in a foreign film about the singer.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by lwaves:
Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:

All the big booming music was the wake-up tune that they played through the ear phones, slowed down. Brilliant. The deeper they go, the more time slows, the deeper, slower and boomier the music gets. I just love it.



Seeing as you guys bought up the music in the film I thought I'd mention this now as I don't think anyone else has. Probably nothing to do with the plot, just a nice coincidence....

....but the music used in the earphones to wake them up was that French song about regret or no regrets by Edith Piaf. She was recently played by Marion Cotillard in a film who of course also plays Mal.
Something? Not something?



"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall


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Wednesday, April 15, 2015 7:07 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


SPOILERS!

A little bit of recap:

Does anybody think that Cobb's totem was the spinning top that was Mal's totem?

Does anybody think that the film ended in the real world, at zero levels or layers of dream?

Does anybody think that the grandfather (Michael Caine) who works as professor in Paris commuted to home in Los Angeles?

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