Okay, it was a mistake to let go of Season 4, but now on to 5! by chrisisall

BUFFYVERSE

Okay, it was a mistake to let go of Season 4, but now on to 5!

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Sunday, September 18, 2005 18:42
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VIEWED: 11535
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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 3:47 PM

Yep, they sure did. I was watching S5 not that long ago and I realized that Riley's vamp "visitations" was probably meant to be a metaphor for Riley screwing around on Buffy. I guess I'm a bit slow on the uptake (unless I'm wrong about the metaphor thing). But I still didn't buy his motivation for engaging in that specific activity. Nor would I buy it if Riley had really screwed around on Buffy.

When Riley tells Xander she doesn't love him, it's heartbreaking but true. So how do they (meaning the writers) deal with it?...I have more to say about this but can't until you've seen "Into the Woods".

About the 730 thing. It makes sense if they were counting down to the end of season 5. But why would they do that? Seems like they would want to countdown to Dawn's arrival.

I think Joss knew by the time they were shooting the season finale to 5 that they were going to be picked up by UPN.

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 3:50 PM

STAKETHELURK

Quote:
Does all this mean S5 was supposed to be the end?

This has been answered already, but I’d like to elaborate.

In the commentaries & extras, Whedon says that he initially toyed with the idea of ending the show in its fifth season, but long before he got there changed his mind (however, a popular myth still exists that Joss was “forced” into making the last two seasons and that “The Gift” is the *true* series finale). And they weren’t technically canceled; a financial dispute arose between the WB and 20th Century Fox. Every time the show was renewed for another season, 20th asked for a budget increase (I assume it's standard practice). When they were negotiating for the sixth season, the WB refused to go any further. A huge argument raged between the two, with Joss caught in the middle (it actually went on during the 100th Ep party). The future of the show was endangered--but not officially killed--even as they filmed “The Gift.” Then UPN swept in, offered 20th a substantially better deal (and perhaps more creative freedom for Joss, I’m a bit fuzzy on that), and enticed the show away from the WB. So the WB’s stupidity was the root of the cause, but they never quite went so far as to cancel the show (they just didn’t want to fund it).

“The Gift” is a very important episode and could’ve ended the series, but I feel that the message it sends is just a bit off from the show’s core message and that “Chosen” is the much better series finale. You’ll have to decide for yourself when (if?) you get there.

Btw, I really recommend you watch Joss’ commentaries. They're always fun and enlightening, though some are better than others. There are a number of good ones on the Fourth Season--which you don’t presently have. But the commentary for “Innocence” is really good, as is the one for “Welcome to the Hellmouth”/”The Harvest,” and the two on Season Five, for “The Body” and “The Gift” are truly great. The one for “The Body” really explains the episode in a way that answered some questions and problems I had with it. So, in summary--commentaries good.

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 3:58 PM

CHRISISALL

Much obliged by the detailed response. I feel I am now somewhat up to speed on the whole question of the direction Joss was taking ( and I'd better ready a whole lot of my comics for liquification, I've been hooked this far...)

Bloody well in deep Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 4:00 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:

When Riley tells Xander she doesn't love him, it's heartbreaking but true.

Yeah, that rang true. Riley was emotionally making a small break w/Buffy as of that moment.

Chrisisall*snif*

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 11:36 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
I have more to say about this but can't until you've seen "Into the Woods".

All right, I saw it. And I have to say, for a character to be written out because he's served his purpose as the rebound guy, they did it rather well. It went a lot smoother than I imagined. It made me teary, even.

Buffy's is a tale of woe, and she has no room in her world for normalcy.

Know what? I'm gonna have to stop saying 'Spike bugs me'.

Chrisisall

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:21 PM

GROUNDED

You really thought it was good?

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:45 PM

BATMARLOWE

Just rewatched the scene to make sure I was remembering it correctly. I realize when couples have a big fight they quite often dance around the real point. So Buffy's mad at Riley for running around behind her back and getting bitten, which Riley apologizes for about 19 times.

Riley never tells Buffy the real reason for all this, and isn't Dracula, or Angel or wanting to feel what Buffy felt, blah, blah, blah...I mean all that relates to why Riley thinks Buffy finds him inadequate that inadequacy is why Buffy isn't really in love with him but Riley never says that crap is just symptomactic of the truth which is Buffy does not love him.

Now when Riley does finally get around to saying that the vamps made him feel needed, she's starting to get the hint that Riley feels she doesn't make him feel needed.

And then she says "Well, who's fault is that?"
And she goes on about how "this is it, this is me, this is package, and if it's not good enough, we have a problem."

So when Buffy says "Well who's fault is that?" Riley doesn't say: "It's your fault!" And he lets Buffy go on and Riley never corrects Buffy that it isn't that she's the Slayer and all the baggage that brings, it that's he wants to know if she is love with him. And he never confronts her with that. Instead of responding to what Buffy does say, he says "I'm leaving tonight" and that takes us down another road.

I just found it very frustrating that Riley never said "Are you in love with me or not?" And see Buffy deal with that with Riley standing right there in front of her.

So I guess after her talk with Xander, Buffy realizes she IS in love with Riley (so I guess that means he's not the rebound guy) and then she runs to stop the helicopter, and so on.

So that's all I was gonna say about that.

But wasn't it cool when Buffy dusted all those Riley-sucking vamps? Especially that three-fer?

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 1:03 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
You really thought it was good?

Not that it was good, but for what it was (an excuse to lose a character) it wasn't too bad. The writing was good given the lousy job they were given to accomplish. And I got sucked into it douche that I am.

Here, pull my heart-string Chrisisall

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 1:09 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:

So I guess after her talk with Xander, Buffy realizes she IS in love with Riley (so I guess that means he's not the rebound guy) and then she runs to stop the helicopter, and so on.

That was the writers having it both ways with us; she doesn't love him/ he goes/ wait, she DOES! *cue the tears*

Like I said, we, the audience, were played. And many of us even kind of liked it.

And that fight was great, it lived up to what I expected in the first few seconds.

Chrisisall

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 2:44 PM

STAKETHELURK

Quote:
Know what? I'm gonna have to stop saying 'Spike bugs me'.

Yes, give in to the Dark Side! There is no other way.

P.S.: That race to the helicopter is heartwrenching, and I was one of those who didn't even like Riley.

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 2:44 PM

MIKEYMO

God, so much good stuff since last I checked into this thread! I had never heard of the 7-3-0 theory, but I absolutely love it and believe that that is the sort of thing that Joss might do. I've always wished (just a little bit) that the series had ended with season 5.

Whoever recapped the episode, thanks for the recap and the astute observations as to what was acutally being said. Now I want to see this again - I always prefer it when people argue around the problem, although I guess it can get frustrating... And, as I check, I see that it was written by Marti Noxon, which begs the question of how she lost the capacity for nuance in less than a year.

I can't exactly remember what Xander said to Anya at the end of that episode, but I do remember loving it.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 5:34 PM

YOSAFFBRIDGE

Several things I just have to get out

1) i like the 730 theory
2) Buffy SOOOO did not ever REALLY and TRULY love Reilly - at least, not after he lost his crazy steroid-induced powers. Maybe Reilly was flirting with becoming a vampire so he could live up to Buffy's expectations...? Feel free to shoot me down.
3) Seasons in order of their fantasticness:
6,2,3,1,4,7,5
4) One of the best Dawn moments ever is when Willow is evil and Dawn goes to find her and Willow does a frustratingly accurate whining impression of Dawn. I kinda wish Willow had just taken her out right there. Anybody on board with that?

Curse your suddent but inevitable betrayal!

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 5:42 PM

MIKEYMO

Yosaffbridge::

2) Word. I don't think Reilly ever really challanged her.
3) My hatred of the Crackwhore Willow storyline prevents me from placing 6 any higher than 5th. Still, I can see where the love comes from.
4) True that.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 11:36 PM

GROUNDED

Remember this is an ongoing S5 discussion, so plot points beyond S5 are spoilers for certain people...

Back to the point:

"So I guess after her talk with Xander, Buffy realizes she IS in love with Riley (so I guess that means he's not the rebound guy) and then she runs to stop the helicopter, and so on."

I thought the helicopter-running was a bit dumb. It's fairly clear that Buffy isn't in love with Riley, so why would she suddenly change her mind? It seems like a bit of a cop-out to have Riley get away before they can actually deal with the reality of the situation: even if Buffy had caught up to him, nothing has changed. And from a plotting perspective, if Xander had only spoken a little bit faster she'd have easily caught the helicopter...

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Friday, September 16, 2005 12:07 AM

JACQUI

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
Yep, they sure did. I was watching S5 not that long ago and I realized that Riley's vamp "visitations" was probably meant to be a metaphor for Riley screwing around on Buffy. I guess I'm a bit slow on the uptake (unless I'm wrong about the metaphor thing). But I still didn't buy his motivation for engaging in that specific activity. Nor would I buy it if Riley had really screwed around on Buffy.

The show always tied sex and vampirism together, but I feel that Riley's break down and the eventual break up of him and Buffy was a little more detailed than that and a long time coming. Riley was groundless from the moment he was forced to face the truth about the Initiative, he never found a purpose after that.

And he resented being called "destiny's girlfriend", it hurt him that Buffy had a purpose and he didn't. Their relationship was never one built on pure honesty and openness to begin with. From the very start they lied to each other, Buffy often held back from him to pander to his need to feel bigger and stronger and, later, she was never able to open to him when she needed it.

I haven't watched Buffy for too long, but my original thoughts on the matter are thusly...

A New Man:
Riley has to face the fact that Buffy is a Slayer. She is strong, stronger than he is. He's stuck in the old fashioned ideal that men folk protect the women folk. He's a soldier, he should be stronger. His own frustration at this drives Buffy into a subterfuge of her own, hiding the full extent of her strength.

Goodbye Iowa:
*Riley has to deal with a lot of things. His whole world is crumbling, everything he thought he was fighting for, everything he lived for. His whole basis of self esteem was built around the fact that he thought he was doing good, that he had a higher purpose. The truth hits him hard and he's in danger of free floating without a foundation. Added to this is the pressure of withdrawal, a vicious detox that is affecting him both mentally and physically, and a deep and valid grief for Maggie Walsh. He did not know her as evil and as such, feels the need to grieve, yet his brain is telling him that he has no right because she was, ultimately, working for the bad side. At the end of the episode, Riley is near his tether, ready to explode and he cannot take any further slight to Maggie, he certainly does not want to listen to Adam, who might have told him some valuable information. He's confused, angry, frustrated and he doesn't know who to trust. By the end of the episode, however, after having been injured and forced to reflect, he is left with one true image: Buffy.

Superstar:
Buffy and Riley are still feeling the after effects of Faith's visit. Buffy feels betrayed and just a little bit insecure about Riley and the way he will see her now. She can't relax and she can't let go of her insecurities. Riley is frustrated, he's apologized for what has happened and there's not much more he can do. Neither is talking to the other, which just compounds the problem. It's only until Jonathon gives them both some good advice, namely: talk to each other; and things worth while take a little time and effort. Once they take this advice, talk to each other and realize why the other is feeling the way they do, then they can move past the stasis that their relationship has been in.

The Yoko Factor:
Riley is running a little close to the edge. He's been forced to abandon the very thing he devoted his life to, after finding out that it was a little less than noble. Completely groundless in this aspect, Riley must then deal with the truth about Buffy's romantic history, another thing that shakes his already weakened 'humans good, demons bad' beliefs. All of his friends are dying left and right. He's at a point where he barely knows which way is up, when Xander lets slip with further truth about Buffy and Angel's past. When Angel turns up in Sunnydale, Riley is more than ready to assume he's evil and to fight him. An act which cements his purpose in the evil Vs good stakes and also allows an outlet for his frustrations over Buffy. Not only is he not willing, but he is barely able to listen to reason, from Angel or even from Buffy. The final perceived betrayal, Buffy 'choosing' Angel's side over his, sends Riley to Adam. He needs to end it, he needs to find an answer so that he has a place in the world and with Buffy, and the only way to do this is to go straight to the source.

Shadow:
*Riley reaches out to Buffy, but she is still resisting. She can't let herself go, because "They need me" but what she doesn't realize is that Riley needs her to need him. The rift is growing between these two.

*Riley reaches out to Sandy, the vampire, for many varied reasons. Spike's digs about Buffy needing darkness in her man are getting to him, his jealousy and inability to understand Buffy's attraction to Angel and/or Dracula, his need to feel needed, they're all intertwined and Sandy offers this to him. He cannot sustain it, however, because it is not her that Riley is after, but answers that she does not have, and he ends up staking her because ultimately, he resents her.

Listening To Fear:
Riley is selling his body… to vampires. The one thing about Buffy that has really baffled Riley is that she won't allow him under her skin. She won't let him in. The last time she did this with anyone, it was with Angel. He can't understand this emotion. For Riley, the world is a place of stark blacks and whites, clearly defined lines. Buffy has blurred these for him, but she hasn't given him guidance to new ones and Riley needs them. He needs rules and boundaries and a place for everything. Offering himself up to vampires, Riley believes that this will give him some form of understanding, some clue, as to Buffy's passions, the lure of the darkness. What he doesn't realize is that, for Buffy, it wasn't about the bite itself, it was about the emotional attachments she had with Angel. There was gut wrenching passion and terror and love mixed in with that bite. Dracula entered her mind, drew out of it all he'd need to give Buffy what she thought she wanted. Riley cannot understand Buffy by doing this, but he can try.

Into The Woods:
*Buffy and Riley have to face the fact that something has to change, they cannot continue the way that they are. There's betrayal, mistrust, anger, hurt, shame, accusations, everything that makes relationships volatile, but there's something vital missing. A connection. Somewhere along the line, the messages just aren't getting through. Nobody is getting what they need. Hard truths are faced here.

*Xander makes Buffy face some choices. He is the one scooby who actually does this, confronts Buffy and pulls her up when she needs it. He makes her look deep inside and decide whether she considers Riley to be 'the one' and whether or not she can love him. It is Xander that makes her realize just what she has in Riley and what she stands to lose.

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

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Friday, September 16, 2005 7:27 AM

BATMARLOWE

Great analysis! And if you're doing that all from memory it's all the more remarkable. You've even convinced me that Riley had more motivation to go to the vamps than I originally had thought, although still not 100% sold on it, but I can see it more. Maybe if Riley had explained it as well as you have in "Into the Woods" I would have been more accepting.

But still it's frustrating to watch that scene in "Into the Woods" without seeing Riley put it point blank to Buffy "Are you in love with me"? I know Buffy wasn't feeling the love for Riley right at that moment. So her answer would have undoubtedly been "I don't know".

Early in the season, when Riley confides to Xander that Buffy doesn't love him (and I kept an ear out as I was watching Seasons 4 and 5 and I don't think Buffy ever says those three little words, whereas I think Riley does--but I could be wrong), regardless of what happened between that scene and "Into the Woods" I felt we were being set up for a bigger payoff where Riley would eventually get around to telling Buffy what he told Xander. And as I said before, that never happened. As much as Riley and Buffy had it out in that scene they didn't have it out enough.

And also I thought the "Run to stop Riley scene" was just too melodramatic. And when Xander said "Run", I was halfway expecting him to say "Run Buffy! Run like the wind"! Before that I thought the Xander/Buffy scene was actually pretty good as a scene. It was the scene that before that where I had my misgivings.

Buffy did take Riley for granted. Why was it up to Xander to tell her that instead of Riley? Other than writer's convenience, I mean?

But through it all, Sarah looked great! I swear, Season 5 is her absolute best when it comes to that. Trivial I know, but I keep noticing that when I watch that sequence when she dusts the vamps and she and Xander have their "chat".

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Saturday, September 17, 2005 6:56 AM

CHRISISALL

Jacqui, you are awsome.
You not only know your stuff, but you're one hell of a good writer!

Sometimes illiterate Chrisisall

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Saturday, September 17, 2005 9:25 AM

JACQUI

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Jacqui, you are awesome.
You not only know your stuff, but you're one hell of a good writer!

Stop... you're going to make me blush... but, then again... eyes? Go on... eyes...?

That's what I had for the Haven guides. I've done every episode of Angel and most of Buffy, and now the first three Firefly.

That's what I love about the Joss world, though, there's so many layers. You can just watch it, or you can delve deep into everything.

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

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Sunday, September 18, 2005 3:27 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
And from a plotting perspective, if Xander had only spoken a little bit faster she'd have easily caught the helicopter...

One thing that kept me from REALLY getting into it. I kinda just said a silent 'see ya' in my head.
Can you say, 'manipulated'?

Puppet Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 18, 2005 1:05 PM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
And from a plotting perspective, if Xander had only spoken a little bit faster she'd have easily caught the helicopter...
One thing that kept me from REALLY getting into it. I kinda just said a silent 'see ya' in my head.
Can you say, 'manipulated'?

Puppet Chrisisall

It's one of those moments that makes you want to kick the TV in. Of course that only works if your TV has survived Buffy vs. Dracula... ;)

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Sunday, September 18, 2005 1:29 PM

CHRISISALL

I don't think I'm clear on this...you do or you don't like Buffy Vs. Dracula.....?

Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 18, 2005 1:31 PM

CHRISISALL

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

I am a worm Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 18, 2005 6:42 PM

BATMARLOWE

Given the way the season and the scene with Buffy and Riley transpired, there's no reason to think that Buffy is in love with Riley.

But I think what Marti was writing was that Buffy realizes she IS in love with Riley and that's why she runs for the 'copter.

So it's weak writing any way you look at it.

If Buffy isn't in love with Riley then A)why would she run for the 'copter in the first place and B) Like you said what has changed even if she does catch up to Riley?

If Buffy really was in love with Riley and her talk with Xander is what crystalizes that for her(and again, I think that's what Marti was going for), it gives her reason to run for the 'copter but it's too melodramatic and more importantly it's too little too late. We as an audience haven't been sold that Buffy was in love with Riley.

If Buffy wasn't in love with Riley and then changes her mind and decides she was in love with Riley...well that's just stupid.

They copped out alright. They copped out in the Buffy/Riley scene and IMHO they copped out on that storyline once they established it. All more the shame because I thought it could have been effective and genuinely heartbreaking when Buffy and Riley went their separate ways.

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