Is the best season of Angel better than the best season of Buffy? by chrisisall

BUFFYVERSE

Is the best season of Angel better than the best season of Buffy?

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 8, 2006 06:04
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VIEWED: 4477
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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 12:04 PM

CHRISISALL

Call it and tell us why, if you please.

Curious Chrisisall

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 1:05 PM

DEEPGIRL187

I'd have to disagree. I'm still a Buffy fan at heart, but even if I wasn't, I think that Buffy had stronger seasons over all (mind you, I'm still on season five of Angel). Some of the story arcs on Angel felt a little weak to me. The Jasmine arc in particular felt a little convoluted (though I did still enjoy it).

For me, I think Joss's level of involvement affected Angel. He wrote a lot less for that show than he did for Buffy, as well as some of the stronger Mutant Enemy writers like Jane Espenson or Marti Noxon. I love Angel, even liked it better than Buffy at some times, but in the end, Buffy was the superior show.

P.S. - And for those that might disagree with me, I point you to the Angelus arc of Buffy season two. 'Nuff said.

*************************************************

"So long and goodnight."

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 8:58 PM

GROOSALUGG

That's like trying to decide which one of your kids you like better

.

For my tastes, the best seasons are 3 for BtVS, and 5 for AtS. I love them both, but very differently, and honestly couldn't pick between them.

But if you throw the "season" element out and just say which show is better, then for me, it's Angel by a very slight margin, with the main reasons being that I like its dark atmosphere and big-city backdrop, and that it's more of an 'adult' show (meaning only that its characters aren't high-school/college kids). But I like the cast and characters better on Buffy, and the more-frequent humor, so like I said: almost impossible to choose between them.

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
For me, I think Joss's level of involvement affected Angel. He wrote a lot less for that show than he did for Buffy, as well as some of the stronger Mutant Enemy writers like Jane Espenson or Marti Noxon. I love Angel, even liked it better than Buffy at some times, but in the end, Buffy was the superior show.

True that Angel was never really "Joss's" show, but I don't think it ever suffered at all because of that. David Greenwalt was the show-runner for it for the first three seasons, and I feel like he actually had an even better 'feel' for the show than Joss did. I don't think it's a coincidence that him leaving just happened to precede the weakest season (4) in the show's entire run (and the fact that in one of the DVD special features for that season, Joss states that he feels it was their best season yet only reinforces my opinion that he didn't 'get' the show as well as he should've). Season 5 rebounded and was their best of all, mainly because of the influx of people like Drew Goddard, Ben Edlund, and David Fury (full-time)...

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 9:54 PM

MINIME

No.

I could never relate to Angel in the same way as I could to Buffy (as shows, not at characters). Possible because I'm a still-adolescent at heart...

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 10:14 AM

ZORPRIME01

stupid computer made a double post... see below!

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 10:15 AM

ZORPRIME01

The best of Buffy versus the best of Angel, hmmm, okay...

Well, my fave seasons of Buffy are 3 & 5.
My fave seasons of Angel are 2 & 3 (sorry, S5 ;)

Making a really tough decision, I think it'd be Buffy S3 against Angel S2 (IMHO, the best of each), and Buffy S5 against Angel S3.

I like the two shows equally, so it's really tough. I think Buffy might win out in both cases by a narrow margin simply b/c there seem to be fewer "filler" episodes in Buffy. I usually prefer more of a continuous storyline/arc (though Angel S4 got a little too arc-y). Otherwise, I think the two shows hold their own very well.

If it means anything, I think the single, uncompleted season of Firefly would beat out both the best of Buffy and Angel, again by a very narrow margin!!

"If wishes were horses, we'd all be eatin' steak."

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 12:15 PM

DEEPGIRL187

Quote:
Originally posted by zorprime01:
If it means anything, I think the single, uncompleted season of Firefly would beat out both the best of Buffy and Angel, again by a very narrow margin!!

Well that goes without saying.

*************************************************

"So long and goodnight."

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Friday, October 27, 2006 9:53 AM

RUGBUG

Well, I think the best season of Angel is only slightly better than the worst season of Buffy. From that you can probably guess my answer to the original question.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Tuesday, October 31, 2006 12:07 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Well, I think the best season of Angel is only slightly better than the worst season of Buffy. From that you can probably guess my answer to the original question.

You'd really say that, like, Angel season 5 is not better than Buffy season 4, for instance?

Clarifying Chrisisall

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Tuesday, October 31, 2006 5:17 PM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
You'd really say that, like, Angel season 5 is not better than Buffy season 4, for instance?

Clarifying Chrisisall

how can you maleign Buffy's season 4!?!?!?!

(I LOVE Buffy's Seaons 4)

peronsally I would say that:

Buffy's best are: S4, S6 & S7
Angel S5 is equal to Buffy's S2 and S3
Angel S1,2 and 3 are equal to Buffy's S5

Buffy's worst is S1,
but it is still better than Angel's S4

(obviously this is just my own personal opinion...)

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Wednesday, November 1, 2006 2:34 AM

FLF

sory Chrisisall - S4 is great. the overall arc wasn't AMAZING - but some of the stand-alone eps (i point you here to Hush et al).
I also feel that the best season of Buffy (IMO season 5 - i don't care what anyone else says) is far greater than ANY season of Angel. Season 1 of Buffy is, however, worse than ALMOST all of em (bar s4- what went on there?). apart from that though- only s5 of Angel (and POSSIBLY s2) could come anywhere near being better than any other season of Buffy.

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Wednesday, November 1, 2006 5:21 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by FLF:
sory Chrisisall - S4 is great.

Hey- I was just asking a question!

To me, quality-wise, starting with the best, you have:

Buffy 3, 6, 7
Angel 5
Buffy 4, 5
Angel 1/ Buffy 2
Angel 2
Buffy 1

(Can't place Angel 3 & 4; haven't seen 'em yet)

Subject to change without notice Chrisisall

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Wednesday, November 1, 2006 5:47 AM

GROUNDED

You rate Angel S2 second last??? Chris, I've lost all respect for you... ;)

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Wednesday, November 1, 2006 6:14 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
You rate Angel S2 second last??? Chris, I've lost all respect for you... ;)

Let me clarify with a 1-10 rating...

Buffy 3, 6, 7 [10 of 10]
Angel 5 [9.89 of 10]
Buffy 4, 5 [9.85 of 10]
Angel 1/ Buffy 2 [9.25 of 10]
Angel 2 [9 of 10]
Buffy 1 [7 of 10]

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, November 1, 2006 6:23 AM

CLEMENTINE

Quote:
Originally posted by minime:
No.

Ditto.
___________________________________________

We're still flyin'.

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Wednesday, November 1, 2006 9:56 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
You rate Angel S2 second last??? Chris, I've lost all respect for you... ;)
Let me clarify with a 1-10 rating...

Buffy 3, 6, 7 [10 of 10]
Angel 5 [9.89 of 10]
Buffy 4, 5 [9.85 of 10]
Angel 1/ Buffy 2 [9.25 of 10]
Angel 2 [9 of 10]
Buffy 1 [7 of 10]

Only just saved yourself there ;)

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Wednesday, November 1, 2006 10:38 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:

Only just saved yourself there ;)

*sigh of relief*Chrisisall

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Wednesday, November 1, 2006 11:25 AM

ZORPRIME01

As much as I love the character of Spike and his interplay with Angel in S5 (as well as Illyria), the season just seems too hit-and-miss for me overall to consider it the best of Angel. I will say that I loved "You're Welcome" and most of the final episodes. But it seemed like it took too long/too many filler eps to really get going.

I like Buffy and Angel pretty much equally, but Angel overall was a little more hit-and-miss. Btw, I saw Angel before Buffy, so many of the plot elements that were re-used from Buffy a season or two later on Angel I was experiencing for the first time. So maybe I have a higher opinion of the Angel series than most simply because I saw it first. I'd still place Buffy slightly ahead of Angel, but they're both quite good. I don't think there's as much of a difference in quality as some here suggest.

"If wishes were horses, we'd all be eatin' steak."

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Wednesday, November 1, 2006 1:10 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by zorprime01:
I don't think there's as much of a difference in quality as some here suggest.

Overall, I would agree. I think it comes down to favourite characters, or big bads.

Simply Chrisisall

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Wednesday, November 1, 2006 1:53 PM

ZEEK

I definately put Angel first. The show seemed much more mature. That means plot, arcs, characters, setting, everything. The show didn't seem to have nearly as much filler to me.

Buffy was way more the "who's kissing who" show. I mean by season 7 they even had to joke about how many of the group had slept with each other. That's too much IMO. In fact that's the time when Angel hit its low point when they tried to force some romance for Cordy. Neither of those fit at all IMO.

The funny thing is my season rankings are fairly similar for Buffy and Angel.

Season 2 & 3 are best for both shows
Season 4 was worst for both.
Season 1 was weak but both shows were just trying to find their feet.
Season 5 rebounded and is still good but not great.
Season 6 & 7 only apply to Buffy and rank somewhere between 1 and 5.

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Thursday, November 2, 2006 6:11 AM

RUGBUG

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Well, I think the best season of Angel is only slightly better than the worst season of Buffy. From that you can probably guess my answer to the original question.

You'd really say that, like, Angel season 5 is not better than Buffy season 4, for instance?

Clarifying Chrisisall

Well, yeah. Buffy has always been my favorite. I only bought/watched Angel because there was no more Buffy to watch. I ALWAYS go to watch Buffy first. When that's completed, only then will I turn to Angel.

Now, on merits alone, I think S#5 of Angel was better than S#7 of Buffy. But, IMO, for entertainment purposes any season of Buffy is better than any season of Angel. I just like Buffy better...even crappy Buffy.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Thursday, November 2, 2006 6:20 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:

Now, on merits alone, I think S#5 of Angel was better than S#7 of Buffy.

Objectivly, I agree. But NOTHING from Angel gives me the rush I get from the final ep of Buffy, NOTHING.

Chosen Chrisisall

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Thursday, November 2, 2006 6:32 AM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Objectivly, I agree. But NOTHING from Angel gives me the rush I get from the final ep of Buffy, NOTHING.

Chosen Chrisisall

You liked the final episode of Buffy over the final episode of Angel? Buffy's ending didn't really work for me. They sort of copped out on the whole season long fight with the first. I mean some glowy amulet takes care of it all? Weak. The newbie slayers taking out the uber vamps like they were made of cardboard? Come on a single one kicked buffy's ass repeatedly. These kids were brand new slayers with just a few months of training. Buffy had years and could barely take one of those guys before the finale.

In Angel it was exactly what I would expect. A reasonable fight with some bad dudes. Everyone's last day was a good commentary on who they were. The final battle still didn't win anything for them. They just keep fighting. That's perfect for the show IMO. A much more fitting end to me at least.

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Thursday, November 2, 2006 6:57 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I mean some glowy amulet takes care of it all?

Uhhh, ahem! A glowey amulet that focused the pure soul of the self-sacrificing HERO!

Okay, I just like the fictional ending of a fictional story to be a bit less bleak, if you don't mind. If I want bleak...World here...

Good thing is, they gave it to us both ways, so we could choose A or B, or switch off on both (Which I do).

It's all good Chrisisall

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Thursday, November 2, 2006 7:23 AM

DEEPGIRL187

Regarding the series finales, I think both oculd have been longer. Both deserved two hours at least.

In some ways I liked Buffy's finale better; it was more exciting, and you got to see the action that the show was known for. But I think Angel's finale did a better job of tying things together. The idea of everyone living that day as if it were their last was a perfect way to end things, I think. And who can resist Spike going to a poetry slam?

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Okay, I just like the fictional ending of a fictional story to be a bit less bleak, if you don't mind. If I want bleak...World here...

I think Angel's finale was supposed to be bleak. Life in L.A. was not all sunshine and roses (not that it really was in Sunnydale either). And I liked that the final battle wasn't shown. Buffy always wins against the bad guys, which in some ways is a little unrealistic. Angel on the other hand knows he can never really triumph over evil, but he still fights the good fight. I like fiction, but realism is nice too.

*************************************************

"So long and goodnight."

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Thursday, November 2, 2006 7:35 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I mean some glowy amulet takes care of it all?
Uhhh, ahem! A glowey amulet that focused the pure soul of the self-sacrificing HERO!

Okay, I just like the fictional ending of a fictional story to be a bit less bleak, if you don't mind. If I want bleak...World here...

Good thing is, they gave it to us both ways, so we could choose A or B, or switch off on both (Which I do).

Obviously there are preferences when it comes to tone, but I think anyone can see that the finales succeeded to different degrees on a pure story level. Angel's finale was bleak, yes, but it was
well constructed. Buffy's finale was more uplifting and action-packed, but the construction of the story doesn't stand up to much scrutiny.

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Regarding the series finales, I think both oculd have been longer. Both deserved two hours at least.

Well given that Power Play runs straight into Not Fade Away, you could say Angel's finale was two hours. And if I recall correctly (haven't seen it for ages) End of Days and Chosen run together too. Just because the titles don't have Part 1 and Part 2 tagged on doesn't mean it's not a two parter ;)

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Thursday, November 2, 2006 7:42 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:

Well given that Power Play runs straight into Not Fade Away, you could say Angel's finale was two hours. And if I recall correctly (haven't seen it for ages) End of Days and Chosen run together too. Just because the titles don't have Part 1 and Part 2 tagged on doesn't mean it's not a two parter ;)

Yep, and both achieved what they set out to do.

I like 'em both, just Buffy more Chrisisall

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Thursday, November 2, 2006 9:53 AM

FLF

Quote:
I like 'em both, just Buffy more Chrisisall

My thoughts exactly.

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Thursday, November 2, 2006 12:25 PM

RUGBUG

I typed out this whole response and it disappeared into the black, so...

Short version is, I can't be happy with Not Fade Away. Yes, it's more realistic. But dammit, I want closure. Chosen gave us that. It also gave more 'after the series' possibilities with all the moral implications of turning all the potentials into slayers (of which Angel devoted an episode to, but there is so much more that could be mined). Not Fade Away didn't do that. Your options are 1) Everyone's dead 2) It's business as usual. Both choices are unfulfilling, IMO.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Thursday, November 2, 2006 12:53 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
dammit, I want closure.

Just one of the reasons I like Chosen better than Not Fade Away.
The others being Robert Duncan's magnifigant score, Spike's ultimate (at the time) sacrifice, and Buffy's smile in the last shot.

And Joss directed it Chrisisall

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Friday, November 3, 2006 1:35 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Your options are 1) Everyone's dead 2) It's business as usual. Both choices are unfulfilling, IMO.

A hugely important facet of Angel's character was his inability to achieve fulfillment in just about every aspect of his life. As endings go, it doesn't get much more appropriate. And that is closure ;)

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Wednesday, November 8, 2006 6:04 AM

VAMPCHICK88

i don't know, i really can't compare the two shows they are so different

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