BUFFYVERSE

1943

POSTED BY: RIVER6213
UPDATED: Monday, June 18, 2007 10:37
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Saturday, April 21, 2007 8:45 PM

RIVER6213


Being totally aware of the threat that this thread will quickly end up in Troll country, do you think that history would have been changed in a dramatic way if Buffy Summers had been trapped, drugged, and tied up by some of us, and then sent back through time in a time machine that we created; back to Germany 1943?

Do you think that Buffy Summers having come out of her drugged state and having in a certain period of time realized that she was in Germany 1943 that she could have made a serious difference in the war?

Could a super powered woman have made a difference in a time of chaotic insanity that was world war 2?


Weird topic I know but you decide.

-River




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Saturday, April 21, 2007 8:52 PM

AGENTROUKA


Seems to me that 1933 would be a much better time to intervene. I just don't think that Buffy would have made much of a difference, this a being political and economic mess, not a hand-to-hand combat kind.

Come to think of it, I also don't think she would have gotten far in 1943, unless she had spent some considerable time beforehand studying lots and lots of details. And even then only MAYBE.

She has super-human strength going for her, nothing else. What would YOU do, if you were sent back to that time with super-human strength, knowing only what you know now?

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Saturday, April 21, 2007 9:06 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Seems to me that 1933 would be a much better time to intervene. I just don't think that Buffy would have made much of a difference, this a being political and economic mess, not a hand-to-hand combat kind.

Come to think of it, I also don't think she would have gotten far in 1943, unless she had spent some considerable time beforehand studying lots and lots of details. And even then only MAYBE.

She has super-human strength going for her, nothing else. What would YOU do, if you were sent back to that time with super-human strength, knowing only what you know now?



If I was her, after I came out of my drugged state, and after I walked about in some of Germany cities and experienced a few book burning parties and maybe experienced a few Nuremberg like rallies, with my knowledge of how the war was supposed to turn out I would go underground and fight the Nazis. I think Buffy would have done this. I think she would have done this well. She would have become that nightmare needle in a haystack for the Nazi party.


-River

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Saturday, April 21, 2007 9:21 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

If I was her, after I came out of my drugged state, and after I walked about in some of Germany cities and experienced a few book burning parties and maybe experienced a few Nuremberg like rallies, with my knowledge of how the war was supposed to turn out I would go underground and fight the Nazis. I think Buffy would have done this. I think she would have done this well. She would have become that nightmare needle in a haystack for the Nazi party.

-River



And how would you have found a underground anti-Nazi movement? Which, obviously, not eager to advertize itself to random strangers.

Do you speak German? Natively?

What would you have done about your lack of papers? Where would you have stayed and eaten? How would you have paid for travel?

It seems to me that those sort of practical concerns are vital.

A random foreigner without papers and money, without connections or anything, making revolutionary noises... could easily be made to disappear for suspected spying. Or land in jail for vagrancy. Or any other petty little thing.

I don't see anyone getting far on such an adventure unless they had a great deal of knowledge about the complex web of people, circumstances and chronological events involved.

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Saturday, April 21, 2007 9:30 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

If I was her, after I came out of my drugged state, and after I walked about in some of Germany cities and experienced a few book burning parties and maybe experienced a few Nuremberg like rallies, with my knowledge of how the war was supposed to turn out I would go underground and fight the Nazis. I think Buffy would have done this. I think she would have done this well. She would have become that nightmare needle in a haystack for the Nazi party.

-River



And how would you have found a underground anti-Nazi movement? Which, obviously, not eager to advertize itself to random strangers.

Do you speak German? Natively?

What would you have done about your lack of papers? Where would you have stayed and eaten? How would you have paid for travel?

It seems to me that those sort of practical concerns are vital.

A random foreigner without papers and money, without connections or anything, making revolutionary noises... could easily be made to disappear for suspected spying. Or land in jail for vagrancy. Or any other petty little thing.

I don't see anyone getting far on such an adventure unless they had a great deal of knowledge about the complex web of people, circumstances and chronological events involved.



Nicely put, but put simply...Buffy Summers would have found a way, and I have a feeling that history would have been changed in a very interesting way.

-River

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Saturday, April 21, 2007 9:48 PM

AGENTROUKA


I guess we'll have to disagree.

To me, this is oversimplifying a very complex issue. And also over-estimating Buffy in a very "tv-magic" kind of way. She may have super-human strength but that's it, and a lot of what makes her victorious comes from her team. All that background info people like Willow and Giles dig up for her. All the research. That's rarely ever her doing.


History is for learning from, not for changing. Because if we changed everything bad away, we could never learn from it and would just do it over again anyway. "Interesting" could just as well be really bad.

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Saturday, April 21, 2007 10:52 PM

CITIZEN


There's the fact that in Joss Verse there was already a Slayert running around the world somewhere, and she already didn't change the course of history.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, April 22, 2007 4:42 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
There's the fact that in Joss Verse there was already a Slayert running around the world somewhere, and she already didn't change the course of history.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.




I didn't think of that. Good point.

-River

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Sunday, April 22, 2007 4:49 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Seems to me that 1933 would be a much better time to intervene.



Yes, I think you are right. I forget when Hitler and his boys tried to pull off that Beer Hall takeover or whatever you call it, but I think that would have been a splendid time for a Slayer to show up and take out the trash.

Good point anyhow, now it's time for some boiled eggs, biscuits, and tea.

-River

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Sunday, April 22, 2007 4:52 AM

CYBERSNARK


There were also at least two vampires (one of whom had a soul) fighting on the Allied side as (grudging) mercenaries.

Of course, considering that both Hitler and Mackenzie King (Canada's Prime Minister) were rumoured to be (or be employing) fairly powerful wizards themselves, I'd say there was already more than enough magic being flung around without an extraneous Slayer in play.

And that's not even mentioning the presence of Ed and Hoenheim Elric.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Sunday, April 22, 2007 4:59 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by Cybersnark:
There were also at least two vampires (one of whom had a soul) fighting on the Allied side as (grudging) mercenaries.

Of course, considering that both Hitler and Mackenzie King (Canada's Prime Minister) were rumoured to be (or be employing) fairly powerful wizards themselves, I'd say there was already more than enough magic being flung around without an extraneous Slayer in play.

And that's not even mentioning the presence of Ed and Hoenheim Elric.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.



If this is so, why do you think that a Slayer chose to stay out of history's way during World War II? One would think that she would have been in the thick of it, especially after she discovered those death camps. Would she not feel like it was her duty to put a stop to that sort of thing? You know the song... "With great power comes great responsibility?" I guess we will never know.

-River

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Sunday, April 22, 2007 5:20 AM

DEEPGIRL187


You know, this actually reminds me of an anime called Full Metal Alchemist. Towards the end of the series, the characters who are from another dimension) find themselves in a similar situation in early 30's Germany. They actually do end up having an effect on the course of history, but that's another story entirely.

As for Buffy, I don't think the issue would be whether or not she'd have an impact, I think the issue is should she interfere in the first place. She has a set purpose in the world, to defend the world from supernatural forces. Unfortunately, war is a very natural one.

So all that being said, I think a quote from Angel would best sum this rambling speech up:

Quote:

Doyle: “So what, you don’t get the ring because your period of self-flagellation isn’t over yet? I mean think of all the daytime people you could help between 9 and 5.”

Angel: “They have help. The whole world is designed for them, so much that they have no idea what goes on around them after dark. They don’t see the weak ones lost in the night, - or the things that prey on them. And if I join them, maybe I’d stop seeing, too.”



*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."


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Sunday, April 22, 2007 5:40 AM

CHRISISALL


Actually, a Slayer killed a vampire near the end of WWII, and they mistook it for a suicide. Wonder why Hitler's body dissappeared? Dust, baby.

Chrisisall

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Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:03 AM

CYBERSNARK


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
If this is so, why do you think that a Slayer chose to stay out of history's way during World War II?

Who says she did?

If Hitler was as big on the occult as everyone says, he'd almost certainly know about the Slayer, and likely had forces in play to neutralize her. Maybe there was some special SS unit dedicated to finding the Slayer and keeping her distracted and alive (so as to prevent another being Called).

Hell, the Blitz was probably keeping the Watcher's Council on constant alert, and that's half the equation right there.

The official war history is not the whole story.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:23 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
If this is so, why do you think that a Slayer chose to stay out of history's way during World War II?

Who says she did?

If Hitler was as big on the occult as everyone says, he'd almost certainly know about the Slayer, and likely had forces in play to neutralize her. Maybe there was some special SS unit dedicated to finding the Slayer and keeping her distracted and alive (so as to prevent another being Called).

Hell, the Blitz was probably keeping the Watcher's Council on constant alert, and that's half the equation right there.

The official war history is not the whole story.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.




Now that would make a pretty interesting movie in itself. I wish when BtVS was airing in prime time that during one of the episodes they flashed back to just this very thing we are talking about. Just what DID or WAS the Slayer and the Watcher's counsel doing back in WW2?

Thanks for adding that.


-River

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Sunday, April 22, 2007 12:16 PM

CHARLIETHEBLOODY


or, why isn't buffy over in darfur now, sorting that out? got her hands full already I suspect...


--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."





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Sunday, April 22, 2007 1:22 PM

GEEKMAFIA


Actually there was a slayer in germany, in 1938 to be exact.
It's part of the tales of the slayers graphic novel so details are spoilered

Select to view spoiler:


she was Anni Sonnenblume, 14 years old, and she lived in Nuremberg. She was a member of the Hitler youth. At this time most Germans didn't really see the bad side to the Nazi regime And after all, the watchers council And Sonnenblume were worrying about the supernatural and not really bothered by politics. This changed for Sonnenblume on Kristallnacht. She'd been out on patrol and saw her Jewish bakers family and many others being beaten on the streets by the Sturmabteilung. Sonnenblume vowed to fight the true evil that was around her. which, she now realised, wasn't restricted to vampires and demons. It would seem based on the next slayer we know of she didn't last long though. Sophie Carstensen of Denmark was active in 1940. Sometimes, unfortunately, even power beyond any other can't overcome the evil






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Sunday, April 22, 2007 5:21 PM

RIVER6213


This is all becoming quite grim. Evil seems to win on television and in real life. The good seems to only keep evil at bay; never to destroy it completely, but to keep it from consuming everything. Absolute evil never totally wins, but good also never totally wins...Is this a balance thing? Is that what life is all about?

I find it difficult to understand that a Slayer in Germany, during the Nazi's reign could do nothing to alter history in a positive way. Maybe I don't have the intelligence to see the big picture. Oh well...

-River

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Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:25 PM

WTE


My understanding is that the death camps weren't really widely known about until after Germany'd been defeated. If I'm wrong, sorry, but if I'm right, that would give another reason for no slayer having intervened.

In fiction-world, of course. I realize there's no real slayer...

HONKS

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Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:42 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
This is all becoming quite grim. Evil seems to win on television and in real life. The good seems to only keep evil at bay; never to destroy it completely, but to keep it from consuming everything. Absolute evil never totally wins, but good also never totally wins...Is this a balance thing? Is that what life is all about?



I'm afraid so. Also, considering that Buffy really only has the super-human strength going for her, this is a good opportunity to look at why you're projecting so much onto her and not at the same time wondering why you aren't doing what you wish she would do.

The problem wouldn't have been solved by beating up a few people nor is Buffy bullet-proof, so you might as well take the super-human strength away from her. It's just like any other teenaged girl trying to do what you're expecting of Buffy: a nearly impossible feat.

Quote:


I find it difficult to understand that a Slayer in Germany, during the Nazi's reign could do nothing to alter history in a positive way. Maybe I don't have the intelligence to see the big picture. Oh well...




They didn't tell their population everything, propaganda was huge. Even finding out what to do, what would in any way be effective, would be hugely difficult. The same problems you would be facing right now, trying to end a big political conflict anywhere? A slayer would have faced. You have no clue what to do? A slayer wouldn't have, either. That's quite simply it.

That's why these things happen. They are HARD to prevent, once in motion.

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Sunday, April 22, 2007 8:13 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


No. And here’s why: while Buffy may have a certain talent with killing various monsters, we know that she is not bullet proof. In fact, at one point she almost died because of a single pistol shot to the chest. Now back to the past, the Third Reich, Buffy vs. the German military? Result: Buffy shot to pieces by MP-40 submachine fire.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, April 22, 2007 8:47 PM

GROOSALUGG


Quote:

Originally posted by WTE:
My understanding is that the death camps weren't really widely known about until after Germany'd been defeated. If I'm wrong, sorry,


No, you're right, which is just one of the several gripes I have with "Why We Fight" in AtS S5. Lawson makes mention of changing his mind about the military and the war once he'd "seen what the Nazis were doing." He doesn't specifically mention the death camps, but I've always gotten the impression that that's what he meant... which would make it a goof, because there's no way he should've been able to know about them in 1943.

As far as the rest of the discussion goes, I'd say that the Slayer(s) of that period would have tried to intervene with any occult nastiness Hitler was messing around with that could've caused trouble, and left the non-paranormal business to the Allies and their militaries...

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Sunday, April 22, 2007 11:49 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by WTE:
My understanding is that the death camps weren't really widely known about until after Germany'd been defeated. If I'm wrong, sorry, but if I'm right, that would give another reason for no slayer having intervened.

In fiction-world, of course. I realize there's no real slayer...

HONKS



The full knowledge of these camps and what was going on might not have been known until after the war, but there had to be rumors. Train loads of people don't just shuffle off in the night and no one says anything. It wasn't as if we had absolutely NO idea one day, and then WHAM!....we find out what was going on. That might be the case for some , like soldiers in the field, the general public, but I'd bet some intel types had at least 'some' idea in Britian and in the U.S. of what was going on.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, April 23, 2007 12:09 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

The full knowledge of these camps and what was going on might not have been known until after the war, but there had to be rumors. Train loads of people don't just shuffle off in the night and no one says anything. It wasn't as if we had absolutely NO idea one day, and then WHAM!....we find out what was going on. That might be the case for some , like soldiers in the field, the general public, but I'd bet some intel types had at least 'some' idea in Britian and in the U.S. of what was going on.




But even if they did (which is probably true), it's not like they could have done a lot more to prevent it, right? They were already at war, after all, and if they could have defeated Nazi Germany sooner, they would have done so even without this humanitarian incentive.

So it's really irrelevant if they knew or not.

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Monday, April 23, 2007 12:26 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Is anyone else thinking about Captain America when they read this thread? It could just be me. Still, that was a superpowered individual who fought the good fight and did win some battles in a fictional universe, but was more important as a symbol everyone could get behind.




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Monday, April 23, 2007 9:03 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


It’s a basic philosophical question. If you know your country is doing something like this, what do you do? Morally it seems simple, but in practice though, not so much. The sad truth is that most Germans did know what was going on. For a long time, historians simply accepted the German account that they didn’t know, probably out of sympathy for the Germans, but recent studies are telling a very different and disturbing story. Most Germans probably knew quite clearly what was going on, even if they didn't have all the details.

Totalitarian states have never been able to completely hide the ‘disappearing’ of even a few thousand, the notion that the Nazis did or could have hide the systematic extermination of millions is just laughable. And they didn’t try to. If you go back and read the newspapers and listen to the political speeches of the time, it was painfully clear that the Nazis were not trying to hide it. Sure, the government didn’t go into details about the death camps, but that probably had more to do with international secrecy then with keeping anything from the German people. Within Germany, the newspapers under state control worked diligently to desensitize the people to the murder of Jews and build a justification for murdering them. The same justification mass murderers always use, the Jews were powerful, mean subhumans who are the root of all of Germany’s problems. They were systematically murdered by the state and then their estate was auctioned off to the German population. But history shouldn’t be too hard on the Germans. In a state where the transportation of people into incinerators is a government run industry, it’s not easy to complain, because most Germans were terrified that they would be next. And if you were caught sympathizing with Jews, Nazi response could be swift and total. The Nazis got away with it, not because the Germans didn’t know, but because they didn’t know who to trust.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, April 23, 2007 9:37 PM

AGENTROUKA


Good point, Finn.

By the time the Germans must have become increasingly aware that the Jews weren't just being transported away to live elsewhere in ghettos, I suspect most of them were too worried about the war and their own fate and family to care about what was a defamed minority.

It's cold and selfish and can't be justified away into anything else, but it's also quite sadly human nature.

It tends to make me angry when people pretend that resistance and noble behavior would have been the obvious and logical or even easy choice, and that they would never have acted that way. Because it blinds them to their own weakness and makes just these things possible.

If there is anything I positive I take away from having that German heritage (and it's a hard thing to grow up with on one's national concience when you weren't even there) it's that I never have to fool myself with regards to what people are capable of. Or not so easily capable of. It saddens me that lots of Germans still have trouble recognising this as a gift.

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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 3:22 AM

RIVER6213


Well said all of you, and beautifully put AgentRouka, but as interesting as the topic is we are way off course from the original theme. I have to admit though, you guys are an interesting bunch.

-River

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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 7:19 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Most Germans probably knew quite clearly what was going on, even if they didn't have all the details.

If you go back and read the newspapers and listen to the political speeches of the time, it was painfully clear that the Nazis were not trying to hide it.


The Bush Administration has learned by example. Don't hide what you do, control perception.

Imagine trying to make torture of prisoners legal in the sixties or early seventies- it couldn't have been done. It would have sparked demonstrations-a-plenty, and angered the country.
Now it merely pisses off some human rights groups.
I'm shocked by how plainly Bush & Co have had their way, with such minimal resistance- even now.
In my world, they'd have been in jail by now...but my world is a fantasy one where truth and justice prevail.

Political drive-by Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 5:06 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Being totally aware of the threat that this thread will quickly end up in Troll country, do you think that history would have been changed in a dramatic way if Buffy Summers had been trapped, drugged, and tied up by some of us, and then sent back through time in a time machine that we created; back to Germany 1943?

Do you think that Buffy Summers having come out of her drugged state and having in a certain period of time realized that she was in Germany 1943 that she could have made a serious difference in the war?

Could a super powered woman have made a difference in a time of chaotic insanity that was world war 2?


Weird topic I know but you decide.

-River







NO, because the only way to really change things would be to kill Hitler, and some of the others before they set things in motion.......and Buffy doesn't kill humans. But maybe if we pissed Faith off and sent her back.......


---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 7:46 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
The Bush Administration has learned by example. Don't hide what you do, control perception.

Imagine trying to make torture of prisoners legal in the sixties or early seventies- it couldn't have been done. It would have sparked demonstrations-a-plenty, and angered the country.
Now it merely pisses off some human rights groups.
I'm shocked by how plainly Bush & Co have had their way, with such minimal resistance- even now.
In my world, they'd have been in jail by now...but my world is a fantasy one where truth and justice prevail.

Political drive-by Chrisisall

It’s really stupid to compare the Bush Administration to the Nazis, Chris. Nothing you just said makes any sense. You’re whole premise is wrong. The Bush administration does not control the media and they certainly aren’t using the Nazis as an example. The Bush administration can’t even seem to get their own message out in any kind of cogent manner, much less control perception in the country.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, April 26, 2007 7:32 AM

GROOSALUGG


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It’s really stupid to compare the Bush Administration to the Nazis, Chris.


True, but these days there are people who are willing to take any negative subject and stretch it into an example of why the Bush administration sux. Forget whether you even agree with them on that or not--either way, it's tiring. And tired. Any discussion of the issue turns angry and nasty almost immediately, which is why I try to stay away from it entirely. I'd much rather just come in here and have a nice friendly discussion or debate about something to do with "Buffy" or "Angel", and check the politics at the door.

So, thanks for introducing a political agenda into a completely-unrelated "Buffy" thread, Chris. 50/50 this now turns into "Bush is like Hitler"/"That's an idiotic statement"/"No, it's not"/"Yes, it is"... I don't have the energy, or the blood pressure, to stick around and see if it happens. Hope it doesn't--let everyone get back to the (weird) question of "What would Buffy do in 1943?"

I'll meet you all in the "Season 8, Issue #3" thread next week. Until then...

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Thursday, April 26, 2007 9:25 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It’s really stupid to compare the Bush Administration to the Nazis, Chris. Nothing you just said makes any sense. You’re whole premise is wrong. The Bush administration does not control the media and they certainly aren’t using the Nazis as an example.

I have learned from Bruce Lee's example. Does that mean I compare myself to Lee?
Of course they aren't Nazis. And of course they do not control the media to the extent that Hitler did.
But the demonization of our newest enemy, the attempted covering up of war crimes, and the constant label of 'effort' in place of 'war' or 'intense conflict' shows spin- an attempt to control perception- don't you see that? Or will it take fifty years to gain 20/20 hindsight on that?
You think Buffy would buy that stylish yet affordable crap?


BTW, thanks for responding Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 26, 2007 9:30 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Groosalugg:


So, thanks for introducing a political agenda into a completely-unrelated "Buffy" thread, Chris.

Well, thanks...I don't usually, nor do I intend to in the future. Call this my PirateChrisNewsisall moment
Quote:

Hope it doesn't--let everyone get back to the (weird) question of "What would Buffy do in 1943?"


"Buffy would kill Hitler!"

"That's an idiotic statement!"

"No it isn't!"

"Yes it is!!"



Chrisisall

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Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:27 PM

RIVER6213


If there is a god, then that God abandoned many during World War 2. Even the slayers seemed to have been kept at bay from helping. This planet is full of monsters, and those monsters on the whole are not supernatural; it's us, we are the monsters or are capable of becoming monsters given the right stimuli.

Just finished watching a world war 2 movie and threw up watching a scene where a whole community of butchered people were bulldozed into a mass grave. I hate this planet.

-River



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Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:45 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
If there is a god, then that God abandoned many during World War 2. Even the slayers seemed to have been kept at bay from helping. This planet is full of monsters, and those monsters on the whole are not supernatural; it's us, we are the monsters or are capable of becoming monsters given the right stimuli.

Just finished watching a world war 2 movie and threw up watching a scene where a whole community of butchered people were bulldozed into a mass grave. I hate this planet.

-River





You are absolutely right about human nature. And for that special nauseated horror, you don't need to go back as far as cinemtatically well-presented WW2. Plenty of genocide in the world within less than two decades ago.


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Monday, April 30, 2007 4:04 AM

CHRISISALL


River, don't hyper-focus. There is bad, and evil...but that's just the nature of this, or any other world. There are moments when I feel exactly the same way you do- but that's me keying into the dark side. Choose to focus on, and become part of the positive. Become a Big Sister, share some of your life with a child and regain what you've lost- that sense of wonder- innocence. Or just volunteer at a local school. You need some little smiles in your world, darlin'.
Sorry if I'm making too much with the sappy; it's what I do to get through.

Fellow Browncoat Chrisisall

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Monday, April 30, 2007 9:18 AM

RIVER6213


Thanks, but I am well aware of the nature of humanity and what it is capable of. It's just that every now and then when I least expect it suddenly it hits me just how historically, and presently cruel and mean we are to one another. Human nature? Yes, it is our way; it's what makes human beings, human beings, but still I don't have to like it, which I don't and never will. One could say that I'm shaking my fist at gravity, and in certain ways I am shaking my fist at something I myself cannot control which in itself is an act of futility, but I would not say that I'm being hyper-focused. Any normal human being with a soul would react to a scene of butchery with revulsions, and disgusts which I demonstrated when I watched that movie; it is a natural response.

Its no wonder that the human race has so many stories of super heroes and champions, or supernatural beings, or Gods and spirits fighting for our best interests because considering the horrors we visited upon each other presently and historically, we are frightened shitless of each other because we know what we are all capable of.

Certainly there are people out there who do good acts, and in many ways are heroes. I acknowledge them and their efforts, but it is also very true that the evil that exists in this world totally outnumbers the good. That good is a thin, blue line that keeps evil at bay, but never enough good to totally destroy it because totally destroying evil means that we end up totally destroying ourselves. How screwed up is that? We seem to need evil. Crazy world if you ask me.

Also, as wired tight as I am I do my bit of good for the undeserving humanity. We all in one form or another have to make a choice about what side we want to be on, and then act on that choice in the many ways available. I am just convinced that even though there are good people out there I believe that most people are evil, or have evil intent...call it greed or lust, or hate, or power and prestige; call it whatever you want it is something that we excel well at speaking historically of course.

One of my top annoyances with the human race is one of so-called racial superiority, or racial inferiority. This has got to be the dumbest thing we ever come with. People point at Africans and say they are inferior because they didn't invent a lot of things, so I guess the measure of human development is what your race as created, invented, or built. Whites think that they are superior to other races because of the many things that have been built. We even gone to the moon, but in my mind this brings us no closer to the all mighty, and in certain ways we are the "N" word of humanity. If there were such a creature as a superior human that human would never need to push that superiority in the faces of other races and blame them for not developing as fast as we did. We are not superior to anyone. I personally think that we are tricked into thinking that all of our fancy gadgets we created is a mark of superiority, but it isn't...not in the least.

Lastly. Looking at the whole white race in general, there have been many that created great things and moved in great strides in science, math, arts and social causes, but the rest of white humanity was just along for the ride. How dare we take the credit of the few great people and say that WE ourselves are superior?

What does this have to do with my original topic I don't know, I guess I just got carried away with just another weird thought banging around in this thing that passes for my brain.

-River




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Monday, April 30, 2007 9:55 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Any normal human being with a soul would react to a scene of butchery with revulsions, and disgusts which I demonstrated when I watched that movie; it is a natural response.

One that I have when watching many movies, even during the scene at Haven after the Operative's boys visited.
Quote:




but it is also very true that the evil that exists in this world totally outnumbers the good.

ENNNNNNNNHHH! Wrong answer, Hans.
That's a perception that's innaccurate. If that were true, everyone would be actively trying to kill eachother, most of the time. No, most peeps at their hearts are good folk, just easily fooled into voting for the likes of a Bush. Doesn't make 'em particularly bright, but that's another discussion.

Bright AND good Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 17, 2007 10:01 PM

POETPYRATESCOUNDREL


getting back to buffy in 1943....

there WAS an occult side to WWII; the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn was involved, Gerald Gardner's coven, and other groups as well on the british side. In the BuffyVerse version of the war, I have little doubt that the Watchers' Council was part of the occult side of the war.

I wouldn't tend to think Hitler would be a vampyre---plenty of sunlit footage of him---but a demon in disguise, perhaps? mayhap he had himself a copy of the books of ascension?

i can certainly see the nazi regime recruiting vampyres into the ranks of the SS. heck---they might have been the ones who came up with the whole system of concentration camps, a "final solution" to the problem of keeping the vamps from feeding on the troops. not so much death camps as vampyric mess halls...


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Monday, June 18, 2007 7:43 AM

CHRISISALL


interesting...do you have research to back this up?

Heh Chrisisall

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Monday, June 18, 2007 9:51 AM

POETPYRATESCOUNDREL


there's a book out there called the magical battle of britain, by dion fortune; i've also come across references to those activities in general reading on gardner's newforest (?) coven, crowley, and the GD.

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Monday, June 18, 2007 10:37 AM

CHRISISALL


Cool! I was just joking, and you came up with something!

Wowisall

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