BUFFYVERSE

Xander was a Fool to Leave Anya at the Altar

POSTED BY: RIVER6213
UPDATED: Thursday, May 31, 2007 17:36
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 5021
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Friday, May 18, 2007 7:46 PM

RIVER6213


Even if that old fart who turned out to be a demon and wanted to get revenge on Anya for messing up his life by showing Xander one possible future that was pretty ugly...Xander should have used that information to not letting it get that way where in the end he ends up killing Anya with a frying pan.

I actually think that Anya was too good for Xander. Anya was the best catch that Xander would ever get in life, and he screwed it up because deep down he's nothing but an insecure child hiding behind Buffy's skirt. I've never liked Xander as a character, and I liked him even less when he dumped Anya.

To sum this up...Xander was a stupid assed motherfucker for what he did to Anya and she should have knifed his ass a few episodes later, but it turned out that she had more wisdom then Xander ever had and loved that idiot to the end. She ended up dying in the final conflict while that waste Xander got to live. See how unfair life is???

-River

P.S. You can tell what episode of BtVS I just watched.




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Friday, May 18, 2007 8:59 PM

SINGATE


I don't want to defend his actions here but I think both of their characters would have become stagnate if the marriage had occured.

The really amazing thing about Xander over the course of the series is how many hot women he was entangled with, except for Buffy of course.

The Valentine's Day episode is still one of my favorites.

_________________________________________________

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Friday, May 18, 2007 9:18 PM

RIVER6213


The whole Xander leading Anya on like that really bothered me. Anya may have been a Vengence Demon, but she did have a heart and she was trying. She DID love Xander, but her mistake was dating and trying to marry a child.

Actually, I'm getting mad as I write this so I'm gone...

-River

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Friday, May 18, 2007 10:01 PM

THEREALME


I do not believe that Xander led her on. I believed that he really did love her, but that he was not ready for such a relationship. Not ready for marriage.

He should have said up front that he didn't want to marry Anya yet, but he likely didn't want to hurt her feelings, and so he made things worse by going on and cancelling at the last minute.

Now, Xander did a hurtful thing, and perhaps an immature one, but I do not think that he was malicious about it. I certainly don't think that he planned to hurt her.

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Saturday, May 19, 2007 3:27 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by TheRealMe:
I do not believe that Xander led her on. I believed that he really did love her, but that he was not ready for such a relationship. Not ready for marriage.

He should have said up front that he didn't want to marry Anya yet, but he likely didn't want to hurt her feelings, and so he made things worse by going on and cancelling at the last minute.

Now, Xander did a hurtful thing, and perhaps an immature one, but I do not think that he was malicious about it. I certainly don't think that he planned to hurt her.



My wall screen viewer gets lots of food thrown at it when Xander is on the screen. Whenever that fool opens up his mouth I fast-forward the scene. He didn't mean to hurt Anya and leave her like that but the fact is, is that he did do it. And to add true stupidity in the mix he still wanted her to be with him! I would have knocked that idiot on his ass. I would not wanted to have anything to do with a creep like that after being left at the alter.

Xander should have NEVER said that he was going to marry Anya in the first place. I personally think she was too good for him. She ends of getting killed and he ends up getting fatter and surviving the epic conclusion of the series. Life just sucks that way. They should have written that mama's boy out of the show.

Also, that episode where Xander finds out about Spike getting some "Solace" sex with Anya and he got all mad and grabbed an axe, and went to try to kill Spike. I got angry anew! Who did that clown think he was? He dumped her ass, therefore she could have sex with anyone she wanted. At that point I seriously thought the character Xander was a complete retard.

BTW when Buffy and Anya had that fight in the episode called "Selfless" I was cheering Anya on all the way! It appears I have a soft spot for Vengeance Demons...go figure.

-River

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Saturday, May 19, 2007 3:37 AM

LITTLEALBATROSS29


Anya was my favorite charachter on Buffy..
I wanted her to kick Buffy's ass too.

And I never ,ever liked Xander.

It angered me to no end that she died and he lived at the end of the series.

Bryce
***********


Oh, no, baby, no. You're not going to die. They are. Cover your ears. Hey, should we get a dog?

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 4:46 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by LittleAlbatross29:
Anya was my favorite charachter on Buffy..
I wanted her to kick Buffy's ass too.

And I never ,ever liked Xander.

It angered me to no end that she died and he lived at the end of the series.

Bryce
***********


Oh, no, baby, no. You're not going to die. They are. Cover your ears. Hey, should we get a dog?



Anya was a great character.

-River

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 7:58 PM

MOHRSTOUTBEARD


I do so wish I'd kept a running tally of things I've had spoiled for me in Buffy and Angel by inconsiderate thread titles and the like. I'm sure it would be quite an impressive list.

------------------
"Remember, there's a big difference between kneeling down and bending over."

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 9:07 PM

GROOSALUGG


Quote:

Originally posted by MohrStoutbeard:
I do so wish I'd kept a running tally of things I've had spoiled for me in Buffy and Angel by inconsiderate thread titles and the like. I'm sure it would be quite an impressive list.


That occurred to me the minute I saw it. So, spoiler warnings are out the window now?

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 9:33 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by TheRealMe:
I do not believe that Xander led her on. I believed that he really did love her, but that he was not ready for such a relationship. Not ready for marriage.

He should have said up front that he didn't want to marry Anya yet, but he likely didn't want to hurt her feelings, and so he made things worse by going on and cancelling at the last minute.

Now, Xander did a hurtful thing, and perhaps an immature one, but I do not think that he was malicious about it. I certainly don't think that he planned to hurt her.




But what is leading on if not the refusal to be upfront about something, for whatever reason?

Not wanting to hurt someone's feelings is pretty much always just an excuse for not wanting to face the consequences of honesty.

That's childish and selfish.

So, it may not have been malicious but it was absolutely cowardly and there's an indifference to the other person's feelings and dignity involved that can't be pretended away with phrases like "not ready" or "didn't mean to".

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Monday, May 21, 2007 7:40 AM

RUGBUG


Quote:

Originally posted by Groosalugg:
Quote:

Originally posted by MohrStoutbeard:
I do so wish I'd kept a running tally of things I've had spoiled for me in Buffy and Angel by inconsiderate thread titles and the like. I'm sure it would be quite an impressive list.


That occurred to me the minute I saw it. So, spoiler warnings are out the window now?



[rant]You know, at a certain point, say 4 years after the series has ended spoiler warnings become a bit much.

If you don't want to be spoiled for something 4 years old, don't go into a forum based on the show. Also, sit your ass down and watch the damn thing so there's nothing to spoil. [/rant] It is well worth the effort.

As to what I think about the thread topic: While Xander shouldn't have left her at the altar, I'm fine with him leaving her. I'm also fine with him loving her and still wanting to be with her...just not married to her at that point. He was what 22? That's awfully young.



***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Monday, May 21, 2007 8:01 AM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND


Gotta say I agree with RugBug on the spoilers issue. I have tried a few times over the year I have been a member here to get a mod or senior member to give me some guidance on spoilers to no avail. Would this have been a better title for River?
"Xander and Anya *Spoilers for Buffy Season 6 onwards"?
Probably, but this episode was aired what 4 or 5 years ago? At what point do we decide to stop with the spoiler warnings?


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Monday, May 21, 2007 8:49 AM

MOHRSTOUTBEARD


Quote:

Originally posted by RugBug:
[rant]You know, at a certain point, say 4 years after the series has ended spoiler warnings become a bit much.

If you don't want to be spoiled for something 4 years old, don't go into a forum based on the show. Also, sit your ass down and watch the damn thing so there's nothing to spoil. [/rant]



A few points to consider:

Firstly, this topic doesn't just show up in Buffyverse, it shows up in the "Latest Discussions" list on the main page, which means people can stumble upon it without meaning to.

Secondly, Buffy and Angel represent more than 170 hours of television. It isn't something that gets watched overnight if you didn't watch it when it was on.

Thirdly, this site is Fireflyfans.net, not Fireflydouchebaggyspoilers.net. There is never a point at which spoiler warnings became "too much". It is just common courtesy. There's no reason to act so self-righteous just because you're too lazy to think of creative ways of being polite.

------------------
"Remember, there's a big difference between kneeling down and bending over."

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Monday, May 21, 2007 9:01 AM

AGENTROUKA


But isn't there a point at which being careful of spoilers becomes the responsibility of the newbie? It's been 4 years. Posting spoiler warnings for all eternity is just unreal.

Anyone surfing this site is not a fandom-virgin and knows that people discuss all three Whedon shows here. If you're choosing to watch Buffy from scratch now, and want to remain utterly unspoiled, youre going to have to avoid certain places.

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Monday, May 21, 2007 9:06 AM

RUGBUG


Well, being the self righteous douchebag that I am...

Buffy completed its run almost 35,000 hours ago. I know I've had plenty of time to watch those 170 hours...multiple times in fact.

Now, if someone is new to the verse this late in the game, they can't expect to not be spoiled. Seriously. You really shouldn't even expect to not be spoiled for Firefly.

If you don't want to be spoiled, don't go on a fan-site.
REal world example: say you're at work and there is a discussion about the season finale of ER that you missed. Do you stick around expecting others to not "spoil" you or do you make a quick exit if not knowing is that important? You leave so you don't have to hear without making everyone else stop their conversation.

BTW, I do my best to not post spoilers (thread titles should be a no-no...and I think the 'spoiler' code is awesome...) but there comes a time when you shouldn't expect others to spare your virgin Buffy ears.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Monday, May 21, 2007 9:51 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


I still and always will love Xander, despite his human tendencies to do unkind things sometimes. That said, Xander's death would make all others pale in comparison to me. I could not imagine getting past it. He truly is the heart of BUFFY to me, and has been since March 10, 1997.

**************************************
"Drew isn't that talented. He just gets away with stuff because he's cute."--David Fury on Drew Goddard
"Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing."--Angel
"In Joss We Trust."

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Monday, May 21, 2007 8:39 PM

GROOSALUGG


Quote:

Originally posted by RugBug:
[rant]You know, at a certain point, say 4 years after the series has ended spoiler warnings become a bit much.

If you don't want to be spoiled for something 4 years old, don't go into a forum based on the show. Also, sit your ass down and watch the damn thing so there's nothing to spoil. [/rant] It is well worth the effort.



Well, just to get this up-front first, the reason I wasn't even going to bring it up when the thread was originally started was because, since it didn't affect me (I'd already seen all the eps), I didn't really care too much.

BUT, having said that... Remember that this is not primarily a 'Buffy' or 'Angel' fansite; it's a 'Firefly' fansite. Says so right in the title. People find their way here because they were exposed to FF and/or 'Serenity' and liked what they saw. I'd wager at least half the newbie Browncoats at first didn't even realize there was a connection between FF and BtVS/AtS ("Whoa, you mean the guy that did 'Firefly' was the same dude who did 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer'?") Once they do, some are bound to want to try the other two shows, as well. Heck, in the couple of years since I've been coming here, I've seen at least 4 or 5 threads started by people who are just starting out watching the 'Buffy' and 'Angel' DVDs--that's since 2005, 2 years or more since 'Buffy' went off the air.

Quote:

Cordelia: "We don't have time for this!"
Angel: "There's always time to be considerate of others, Cordelia."


And it's true. Especially when it comes to thread titles where someone can't help seeing it, even if they don't want to.

For example, a much better, more considerate title here would've been something like: Season 6--"Hell's Bells". Then, anyone browsing this forum who hadn't made it up to "Hell's Bells" yet would know to avoid it 'til they had.

Anyway, that's just how I feel about that. Luckily I can't remember ever having been burned myself in a case like this, but I'd still hate to see it happen to anyone else...

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Monday, May 21, 2007 11:23 PM

JWHEDONADDICT


I don't know if anyone knows this but

Select to view spoiler:


Xander was originally supposed to be killed off rather than injured.
Joss changed his mind because he wanted a happy ending for the series and realized (thankfully) he couldn't have that if he killed off one of the main four. Anya was killed because 1) he needed a quick, pointless and cruel death before Spike's demise, to show how high the stakes were in this war, and 2) Emma Caulfield was pretty vocal about wanting to move on from Anya. That's why he chose her. Nick Brendon would've continued to play Xander, if asked. Emma was done. End of story.



**************************************
"Drew isn't that talented. He just gets away with stuff because he's cute."--David Fury on Drew Goddard
"Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing."--Angel
"In Joss We Trust."

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 4:34 AM

RIVER6213


I didn't know that.

-River

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:53 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


You see I'm frequently amazed on this forum how many of you here are all in favour of KILLERS!!!!

It happens all the time with Spike.

THEY KILLED PEOPLE!!!! They deserve all the badness they get!!!! ( and really it's not that bad, she just got jilted. Sheesh who doesn't, get over it y'know. She spent 1000 thousand years terrorising humans for vengence, mostly for fun!!!) She can stand a little jilting at the altar.

I mean would you so readily accomodate a serial killer who frequents your street ? I doubt it. I certainly wouldn't. ANYA was a great character but she was no catch! She came with heaps of baggage, and a very juvenile outlook and in constant need validation. Xander should have gone for someone HUMAN as should have Buffy.

While it may not have been the best way to let her know of his doubts (wedding day) it had to be done. Their future together would have been a disaster. In the long run he made the wise decision.

And as for ANYA's death being tragic. May I reming you - she was a thousand years old!!! She'd had a life. No tragedy there. Crickey if you're not happy with a thousand years of life you aint never going to be happy, lets face it!


www.cirqus.com

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 6:11 AM

CHRISISALL


Nice goin' Som!

And RE: spoilers, yeah, maybe the title tells a lot, but it doesn't tell of a death or anything!
I don't mean to be hardassed here, but for instance, I haven't seen Heroes since the first few eps, and when it comes out August on DVD- I'm there, in the meantime I won't go NEAR Heroes discussions or sites.
And anyone that loves Firefly, but won't watch Buffy ain't gonna care.
One more thing- I was spoiled for EVERY major plot point before going in, and it was (still is) a gas all the way. But that may just be me....

Spoiled rotten Chrisisall

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 6:31 AM

AGENTROUKA


THESOMNABULIST --

so what if Anya was a vengeance demon and had racked up bad karma to the high heavens?

That doesn't justify what Xander did any more than his leaving her at the altar makes up for what she did.

He behaved in a really shitty, really childish and cowardly way and nothing Anya ever did takes away from that.

I'm all for judging people by what they do, right or wrong, not whether the victim "had it coming".

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 6:33 AM

RUGBUG


Quote:

Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
You see I'm frequently amazed on this forum how many of you here are all in favour of KILLERS!!!!

It happens all the time with Spike.

THEY KILLED PEOPLE!!!! They deserve all the badness they get!!!! ( and really it's not that bad, she just got jilted. Sheesh who doesn't, get over it y'know. She spent 1000 thousand years terrorising humans for vengence, mostly for fun!!!) She can stand a little jilting at the altar.

I mean would you so readily accomodate a serial killer who frequents your street ? I doubt it. I certainly wouldn't. ANYA was a great character but she was no catch! She came with heaps of baggage, and a very juvenile outlook and in constant need validation. Xander should have gone for someone HUMAN as should have Buffy.



The biggest problem I have with your post is that Anya is HUMAN and is no longer a killer. She hasn't been since she turned human...well, until Xander left her.

It would be interesting to contrast her to Angel, who feels guilty about his transgressions. Anya doesn't, and in fact, still takes pride in the work she did as a vengence demon. That would be her biggest failing as human, in my book. Does she deserve pain, though? No. But it is inevitable in life and I think Xander made the right decision by not marrying her. However, he should've figured things out earlier.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 6:49 AM

RUGBUG


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

He behaved in a really shitty, really childish and cowardly way and nothing Anya ever did takes away from that.



What would've been the adult way? Marry her anyway? It's not like he just ran away never to be found.

Yes, his insistence on getting married was childish. It was like he didn't want her assertions that he only proposed because he thought the world was going to end to be true...so he made sure they weren't. Only he couldn't go through with it because in the end, she was right. But not marrying Anya was not childish.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:02 AM

AGENTROUKA


I'm pretty certain you answered your own question, RugBug?

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:08 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:


He behaved in a really shitty, really childish and cowardly way and nothing Anya ever did takes away from that.


A little hard on the boy, aren't we?

Xander-like Chrisisall

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:49 AM

RUGBUG


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I'm pretty certain you answered your own question, RugBug?



Well, he didn't realize it until he was almost at the altar. What exactly would you propose he did? He can't change the past, so he stepped up and did the adult thing. His timing sucked, but that decision wasn't childish.



***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:15 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by RugBug:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I'm pretty certain you answered your own question, RugBug?



Well, he didn't realize it until he was almost at the altar. What exactly would you propose he did? He can't change the past, so he stepped up and did the adult thing. His timing sucked, but that decision wasn't childish.




Part of him must have known. You yourself call his insistance to get married childish. THAT's the part that I can't forgive. That willful blindness and the expense of another person.

I'm not saying he should have shut up and married her. The fact that he delayed the decision up until that moment.. THAT is utterly... blergh!

I don't think that was really necessary. Not to mention being so blind to the emotional consequences as to even imagine the relationship continuing. How self-centered is that?


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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:20 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:


He behaved in a really shitty, really childish and cowardly way and nothing Anya ever did takes away from that.


A little hard on the boy, aren't we?

Xander-like Chrisisall



I can't say. Maybe it's an unhealthy bias, but I'm just really allergic to people lying to themselves and others until they can't anymore, uncaring of who they hurt in the process. It's just such an ultimate act of disregard to other people involved, people who are supposedly beloved.

That dishonesty... and especially if it's defended as something that couldn't be helped. It could. By having a spine and respect for others. The absence of which really can't be excused.

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:24 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I'm just really allergic to people lying to themselves and others until they can't anymore, uncaring of who they hurt in the process. It's just such an ultimate act of disregard to other people involved, people who are supposedly beloved.


I see your point, but remember, he was a late-blooming 22 year-old...just barely an adult by many standards. And he CARED who he hurt, he just couldn't SEE any way around that.

Poor Xan...Chrisisall

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:40 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
I see your point, but remember, he was a late-blooming 22 year-old...just barely an adult by many standards. And he CARED who he hurt, he just couldn't SEE any way around that.

Poor Xan...Chrisisall



Maybe my perspective is skewed because I'm pretty close in age to him. I can't consider him a kid the way I would a 16 or 18-year-old. 22 is an adult.

It's that lack of honest reflection that bugs me. He could have seen. He, on a level, chose not to. He's not thinking ahead, even though part of him must have known the issues. That's the uncaring part, because actually caring means sucking it up and facing truths before you're about to drown in them. To prevent exactly that sort of cruel incident of humiliating another person in such a way.

Marriage is serious, and Anya takes it seriously enough that he doesn't have an excuse of just being carried away by the giddy mood like, say, Britney Spears. To use a bad example.

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 12:31 PM

RUGBUG


Willful blindness? Dishonesty? Part of him had to know?

You know, it's quite possible to not know your own feelings on a subject. To think you're headed in the right direction and even if you have misgivings (as many people do about marriage) to believe it is the way you should proceed.

You have an awfully black and white perception of this issue. I would never say Xander KNEW he was lying to himself.

I suppose since I'm a very self-aware person who has been caught in a situation that was similar and getting out of it cost me a LOT, I sympathize with Xander. I wasn't lying to myself, I just thought, hey...this is a good thing. It's a grown up thing...and quickly found out it made me miserable. My only choice at that point was to get out and get out fast.


***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 12:42 PM

AGENTROUKA


I think it's the "should" there, that prevents me from sympathizing. The "thing to do" attitude. It's not just yourself, after all.

It's not hard to just take a step back and wait until you know how you feel. It's the responsible thing.

Following a "should".. that's a risk you take with yourself - and another person. Unless every misgiving and uncertainty is on the table up-front, you're making them a test subject to a degree they might not realize.

Is it a mistake that people make? All the time. Is it something I consider easily forgivable because oh-so-understandable? No. It's laziness at best, cold cowardice at worst.

I could, in fact, forgive it more easily if it was aknowledged as those things, instead of considered something that couln't be helped.

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:29 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
THESOMNABULIST --

so what if Anya was a vengeance demon and had racked up bad karma to the high heavens?

That doesn't justify what Xander did any more than his leaving her at the altar makes up for what she did.

He behaved in a really shitty, really childish and cowardly way and nothing Anya ever did takes away from that.

I'm all for judging people by what they do, right or wrong, not whether the victim "had it coming".



I agree completely, and good point. What Xander did was not very nice. He should have stopped everything before it got into marriage territory, and you are correct, he did behave in a cowardly fashion and not even Anya an ex-Vengeance demon deserved that. I don't know about you but I had a problem with Xander wanting to go back to boyfriend girlfriend status. If that were to have happened to me I would find that hard to do even if I still loved the guy, but this is television so I guess they can get away with things like that.

-River

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:07 PM

JWHEDONADDICT


Naturally, I agree with Chris on the subject.

I personally think 21 or 22 is too young to get married even in the real world anyway. He made an understandably impulsive and sweet decision to propose to Anya before facing Glory in "The Gift", but I never once thought it was the right thing to do. At that age, you should be traveling and meeting people (I don't mean the spring break kind), getting your own life together and figuring out who you are, if you haven't already. Anya, at the age that she was, should have understood that and insisted that they wait until the time was actually right to marry. That was a sort of flaw in her, I think, that she still, at 1120+, understand what it takes to make a relationship work. She always clung to what she knew, remember? Vengenance, and relationships. Neither of which ever made her happy because she couldn't figure out how to actually BE happy.

**************************************
"What if you could have the power? Now? In every generation, one Slayer is born...because a bunch of men who died thousands of years ago made up that rule...
So I say we change the rule. I say my power should be our power...
Every girl who could have the power, will have the power. Can stand up, will stand up...
Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?"--Buffy Summers, May 20, 2003


"In Joss We Trust."

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 12:58 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Quote:

so what if Anya was a vengeance demon and had racked up bad karma to the high heavens?


So what? So everything. Don't you realise you are judging Xander on his childish indiscretiions and disregarding Anya's more serious murderous actions and intent by the way. Xander may have caused harm but it was not intended. Anya's soul purpose was to inflict revenge often by death. That's murder by INTENT. It doesn't even come close to Xander's (human) misdemeanours

Quote:

That doesn't justify what Xander did any more than his leaving her at the altar makes up for what she did.


It's not about making up for what she did, it's about your dislike for Xander based on his very minor indiscretions compared to you genial appraisal of Anya's personality and your removal of her past indiscretions which by the way are extreme!


Quote:

He behaved in a really shitty, really childish and cowardly way and nothing Anya ever did takes away from that.


You serious? Her thousand year rampage as a vengence demon has no bearing on things? HOw are you forming your personality on Anya then... does her past not concern you ?

Quote:

I'm all for judging people by what they do, right or wrong, not whether the victim "had it coming.


Look there was an angle on this thead about Xander being a fool and disliked for his actions. Fine fair play to you, but if you do that then surely you must engage the same principals of judgement to Anya, and should you do that you'd actually find that Anya is the person you should dislike more. Yet you don't. That I find curious. As such I find there is a conflict in your argument. That's all.


www.cirqus.com

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 1:05 AM

AGENTROUKA


You're not reading me right.

I'm saying that it is irrelevant who Xander did it to. It could have been a human woman he did it to, as well.

It's his action I'm judging.

None of this implies in any way what I think of Anya herself.

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 1:24 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Quote:

agree completely, and good point. What Xander did was not very nice. He should have stopped everything before it got into marriage territory


He did stop before it got to marriage - that's something surely :P It's nicer than letting the marriage go ahead when his heart wasn't into it no?

Quote:

and not even Anya an ex-Vengeance demon deserved that.


This I don't understand sorry. So who does then? Who in your mind falls so low as to deserve such a thing?


www.cirqus.com

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 1:38 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
You're not reading me right.

I'm saying that it is irrelevant who Xander did it to. It could have been a human woman he did it to, as well.

It's his action I'm judging.

None of this implies in any way what I think of Anya herself.



Oh ok. Fair enough. His actions are human full with human frailties so I guess, yes they're not very mature, but then mature people are vulnerable to childish behavior too.


www.cirqus.com

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 1:43 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Originally posted by RugBug:

Quote:

The biggest problem I have with your post is that Anya is HUMAN and is no longer a killer. She hasn't been since she turned human...well, until Xander left her.


Well that kinda says it all really. Her weakness of character is evident. Much akin to Willow losing it and wanting to destroy the world because she lost Tera. Fact is we have to deal with loss, these two figures don't do to well when it comes to that.


Quote:

It would be interesting to contrast her to Angel, who feels guilty about his transgressions. Anya doesn't, and in fact, still takes pride in the work she did as a vengence demon. That would be her biggest failing as human, in my book. Does she deserve pain, though? No. But it is inevitable in life and I think Xander made the right decision by not marrying her. However, he should've figured things out earlier.


yeah he should have no doubt. However y'know if we did things right at all times we'd not be human..

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 1:53 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
You're not reading me right.

I'm saying that it is irrelevant who Xander did it to. It could have been a human woman he did it to, as well.

It's his action I'm judging.

None of this implies in any way what I think of Anya herself.



Oh ok. Fair enough. His actions are human full with human frailties so I guess, yes they're not very mature, but then mature people are vulnerable to childish behavior too.




I'm glad we cleared up the misunderstanding between us, but well have to agree to disagree with regard to how we judge what he did. :)

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 2:04 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:


I'm glad we cleared up the misunderstanding between us, but well have to agree to disagree with regard to how we judge what he did. :)





Cool friends it is




www.cirqus.com

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 5:01 AM

DEEPGIRL187


It's been an interesting discussion so far, but there's one thing that I havent' seen anyone address.

Has anyone really stopped to think why Anya became a vengenance demon? It wasn't just to inflict random damage, at least, not in my mind. She saw herself as justice itself for all women who had been hurt or downtrodden in some way. Now I'm not saying that justifies all of her actions, so please don't distort what I'm trying to say. But the feeling I get from certain posts is that Anya killed just for the fun of it, that there was no purpose (at least in her mind) behind what she was doing. What she was doing wasn't right, but she did believe in her actions.

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."


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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 5:10 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
not even Anya an ex-Vengeance demon deserved that.

Let's take a step back in the Galactic Tribunal here....
Anyanka, you are found guilty of quite a few hundred counts of murder, disfiguration, transmogrification, torture, time-line alteration, and self-rightiousness. You are hereby sentanced to be left at the altar by your boyfriend, and killed quickly at the final battle of the Sunnydale Hellmouth.

She got off lightly in the big picture, don't you think?

Judge Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 5:11 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by deepgirl187:
What she was doing wasn't right, but she did believe in her actions.


What? Like Bush?

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 5:18 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:


I'm saying that it is irrelevant who Xander did it to. It could have been a human woman he did it to, as well.

It's his action I'm judging.


Back to the Galactic Tribunal:

Alexander Harris, you have been found guilty of the lack of posession of introspection commonly found in persons quite beyond you in years, as well as being emotionally intoxicated due to Anya's complete and delightful attention. You are sentanced to lose an eye, as well as the girl herself.

Wow. Judge Dredd-like. Sorta harsh, no?

I AM the law Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 6:28 AM

RUGBUG


Quote:

Originally posted by deepgirl187:
It's been an interesting discussion so far, but there's one thing that I havent' seen anyone address.

Has anyone really stopped to think why Anya became a vengenance demon? It wasn't just to inflict random damage, at least, not in my mind. She saw herself as justice itself for all women who had been hurt or downtrodden in some way. Now I'm not saying that justifies all of her actions, so please don't distort what I'm trying to say. But the feeling I get from certain posts is that Anya killed just for the fun of it, that there was no purpose (at least in her mind) behind what she was doing. What she was doing wasn't right, but she did believe in her actions.



IMO, both times Anya became a vengeance demon it was because she had been scorned by the man in her life. Later, after the pain she was feeling wore off, she made it about justice for women. Add to that the vengeance is a VERY immature emotion/action...and she really isn't all that.

Her only redemption comes in the fact that her second round as a VD (heh) was lackluster. Being human again, and probably loving Xander, helped her grow...and to outgrow the immature vengeance notion.

Xander also grew from the experience...which is really what life is about.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 7:38 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

HALFREK: But, Anyanka, there's a whole world out there.

ANYA: Yes, filled with wronged women who need my help.

HALFREK: Oh, but you're talking work.

ANYA: I'm talking about life. Vengeance is what I do, Halfrek. I don't need anything else. Vengeance is what I am.



I still can't agree that Anya wanting to be a vengeance demon was an immature notion. It may have started out that way, but I really think that Anya felt this was her calling. Maybe it wasn't the best one, and maybe she learned better ways to handle her problems, but it's what she believed in. There was never any other time in her life that she really had as much direction and drive.

*************************************************


"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."


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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 7:59 AM

RUGBUG


Quote:

TARA: I thought vengeance demons only punished men who wronged women.
HALFREK: Oh, that was Anya's little raison d'ĂȘtre. Most of us try to be a little more well-rounded. And actually, we prefer 'justice demon.' Okay? FYI.
ANYA: Well-rounded, huh? Is that how you explain your thing for bad parents?
HALFREK: Oh, it's not a thing. The children need me.
ANYA: Hmm! (coughing)Daddy issues(coughing)



Quote:


WILLOW I got the impression that you enjoyed - inflicting.

ANYA Well, causing pain sounds really cool, I know, but turns out it's really upsetting. Didn't use to be.



Quote:


D'HOFFRYN Perhaps, but Anyanka is who you are.

ANYA What would I have to do?

D'HOFFRYN What you do best. Help wronged women punish evil men.

ANYA Vengeance.

D'HOFFRYN But only to those who deserve it.

ANYA They all deserve it.

D'HOFFRYN That's where I was going with that, yeah.



The 'help wronged women punish evil men was D'Hoffryn's sales pitch. He knew what to say to get to Anya. In the heat of the moment, she turned Olaf into a troll and D'Hoffryn appears and takes advantage of that. If D'Hoffryn had given Aud a chance to cool off, the outcome would likely have been different.

And if it really were her 'calling', she would've continued to 'help' wronged woman, probably by actualy helping, even after she became human. Instead, she was happy and in love, so there was no need to help anyone. Make her miserable again, scorned by another man, and back to vengeance with her.

Quite immature, IMO.


***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 12:12 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Back to the Galactic Tribunal:

Alexander Harris, you have been found guilty of the lack of posession of introspection commonly found in persons quite beyond you in years, as well as being emotionally intoxicated due to Anya's complete and delightful attention. You are sentanced to lose an eye, as well as the girl herself.

Wow. Judge Dredd-like. Sorta harsh, no?

I AM the law Chrisisall



Why so snappy? Just because I hold people to a certain standard of reflection and honesty?

You say 22 is too young to be held up to that kind of standard, I simply disagree. That seems to be our main point of conflict, I suppose.

Are some ages more likely not to adhere to it? Yes. Are they unable to help it? Not really, in my opinion. It's nearly the only standard of respectful human interaction there is. There's never a viable excuse not to adhere to it. Reasons? Yes. Excuses? No.


And just like I'm not concerned with matters of who deserved what, I'm not really interested in matters of punishment, either. That's your idea.

All I'm looking at is the cowardice of not examining his doubts at the expense of someone else's emotional well-being to the point of letting it come as far as it did. Childish. Selfish. Cowardly. Why he was childish, selfish and cowardly is largely unimportant to me in labeling that behavior. For all I care, Anya might have forgiven him for it the next day and they would have been happy forever after, I would still label his actions that way. Same if it had been her doing it to him.

*shrug*

I'll have to live with being labeled harsh as a consequence of that.

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