BUFFYVERSE

Season 8 Comics- Joss screws up?!?!?!

POSTED BY: JOSSISMYBOSS
UPDATED: Monday, January 18, 2010 15:47
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Thursday, June 7, 2007 7:41 AM

JOSSISMYBOSS


Ok, Joss is pretty much my hero, and he seems like a really briliant guy so I hope that he not only thought of this way before I did, but intends to clear it up in future comics, but currently I have noticed a major continuity hole in season 8 that is really irritating me.

It is this: How the hell is Warren alive? Ok yeah, I know that he gives a little explanation about Willow not actually destroying him and Amy somehow whisking him away before he actually died. That explanation was lame enough as far as Im concerned, but if Joss says that's what happened Im tentativly willing to follow along.
Except it makes no sense. If he was never dead how did The First make so many appearances as him in Season 7? That was pivital to the plot of that season!

Did anyone else get kinda enraged by this?
Just me?


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Thursday, June 7, 2007 7:47 AM

HELL'S KITTEN


...he was only mostly dead....

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 8:31 AM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by jossismyboss:
If he was never dead how did The First make so many appearances as him in Season 7? That was pivital to the plot of that season!



I believe the fanwank is that Warren had died and been revived at some earlier time in his life. See Prophecy Girl for a canonical example.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 12:18 PM

HOTPOINT


As well as the issue with the First there's also the problem with D'Hoffryn (and his associate "Lloyd") being so impressed by the way Willow dealt with Warren.

Why did the Lord of all Vengeance Demons seem to think Warren was dead too? I doubt he would have been impressed if she'd botched the job especially given that Amy was nowhere near as powerful as Willow.

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Friday, June 8, 2007 9:57 PM

GROOSALUGG


It's an annoying mistake, but not really surprising. There's a lot of positives to continuing the story in comic form, but one of the negatives is that there's just the one writer working on it as opposed to a staff of 6 or 7. One person might forget a detail like that ("How could the First have appeared as Warren if he never died?"), but working in a group, there's a much better chance one of the others will catch it before it's too late.

Brace yourselves--this may not be the last time something like this happens in these comics...

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Saturday, June 9, 2007 2:59 PM

JOSSISMYBOSS


Yeah Groo, I know what you mean. I guess it just gets to me because its Joss himself. Random scores of writers are one thing, but I like to believe Joss has a total handle on his Buffy Universe, because if he doesn't who will?

I will.

But I don't get to write the stories.

:)

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 7:38 AM

CHRISISALL


"You were my sire, man, my Yoda!"

We forgive because we love.

Casting no stone Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 11:16 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Did the FIRST only take form of dead people? If so how come it takes the form of BUFFY - is that because she did die?

www.cirqus.com

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 11:22 AM

CHRISISALL


That was my understanding of it...

Let me rest in peace Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 11:35 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


hmmm well I'm re-watching season seven now, so I'll make great effort to fathom the mythos surrounding the 'First'.



www.cirqus.com

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 11:38 AM

CHRISISALL


The First needs you to GIVE it power...

Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 11:43 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


yes so true... My ex was like that too, I wonder if... Nah.....



www.cirqus.com

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 12:10 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
yes so true... My ex was like that too, I wonder if... Nah.....




Did she have big brown eyes?
THAT WAS MY EX(GIRLFRIEND) TOO!!!!!!!!

Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 12:19 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Wow six degrees of separation!!!! Yup she had the big brown eyes too... I'm a sucka for them. Always have been.

Luckily now though, my girlfriend has 'KIND' big brown eyes! Very important that KINDness part.

I know, I iz lucky!



Incidentally why did the First take so long to confront the Bufster...






www.cirqus.com

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 12:50 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Wow six degrees of separation!!!! Yup she had the big brown eyes too... I'm a sucka for them. Always have been.

Luckily now though, my girlfriend has 'KIND' big brown eyes! Very important that KINDness part.

ME TOO! My wife has big brown (KIND) eyes...we iz lucky.
Quote:





Incidentally why did the First take so long to confront the Bufster...

It was busy setting up events for the Iraq war, I believe.

The First is a busy entity Chrisisall

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Monday, June 11, 2007 8:38 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


C'mon, guys! It's Joss! Have a little faith!

Yes, it was a huge, HUGE season 7 plot point that Warren was dead and therefore The First could take his form. Also, at the time Warren was killed by Willow, Amy was in the grip of a powerful, overdone metaphore. She wasn't nearly so powerful as she is now, and wasn't a patch on Willow. Heck, she was breaking into Willow's bedroom to steal sage. She was pathetic.

Which means the story Warren told Willow wasn't true. It just doesn't add up.

Is it writer error? Maybe. But personally I don't think so. In fact, I have a *very* difficult time believing Warren was alive in any shape during season 7. I'm certain Any raised him after the whole 'Chosen' bust up.

Why am I so sure? It's about power. Amy never had much, and if Rack is anything to go by she's used to borrowing too much for her to handle. The closing of the Hellmouth would have unleashed massive amounts of mystical energy. I'm guessing Amy was able to use it to keep herself alive, and it juiced her magic up a notch. If the power itself didn't shred her sanity, spending months trapped under the ruins of her home town would finish the job.

I'm guessing either Amy decided to resurrect someone else who had been victimised by Willow the same way she felt she had (it's very likely she felt that Willow had cast a huge spell just before the town was destroyed) or her increased power and her intense jealousy of Willow made it happen naturally. Now either Amy has chosen to make Warren believe that she saved him from Willow (making him indebted to her and therefore making herself out to be cleverer and more powerful than Willow) or they ~both~ believe that's what's really happened. In which case Amy has completely lost her grip on reality or something is playing her, and playing Warren too.

That was my immediate conclusion anyway, but then I think about Buffy far too much :) Anyway, I say give Joss a chance to explain this stuff before we all start yelling 'FAIL!' Heck, haven't we learned anything from the whole "OMG!!! Why does Buffy have a sister???" thing?




Banners, Avatars, LJ Icons and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com

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Tuesday, June 12, 2007 3:54 AM

CHRISISALL


Thanks, DTH, we needed that!

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, June 12, 2007 4:38 AM

DEEPGIRL187


We all just have to have a little faith (God, will that word ever be usable again? )

Think of things this way. Not a lot of people liked season four, but by the end of things, we'd had "Hush" and "Restless", two of the best episodes in the entire series. It way seem that come of the storyline is falling flat right now, but Joss will come through. He always does.

*************************************************

"I'm so very sorry. My contrition completely dwarfs the impending apocalypse."

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Tuesday, June 12, 2007 5:33 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by deepgirl187:

Think of things this way. Not a lot of people liked season four,

....I loved season four

3, 4 and 7 are my faves Chrisisall

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Tuesday, June 12, 2007 5:37 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Yeah, even though it's not my favorite season, I don't down it like some other folks do. Any season that has "Pangs", "Beer Bad", and "Something Blue" in them can't be all that bad, IMO.

*************************************************

"I'm so very sorry. My contrition completely dwarfs the impending apocalypse."

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Tuesday, June 12, 2007 5:39 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


deepgirl187 wrote:
Quote:

Think of things this way. Not a lot of people liked season four, but by the end of things, we'd had "Hush" and "Restless", two of the best episodes in the entire series.


I loved Season 4. It's actually the funniest season. The Xander/Harmony fight has me on the floor with laughter.

But you are right... Joss will explain all in the end.

www.cirqus.com

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Wednesday, June 13, 2007 6:32 AM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND


Doesn't Warren taunt Willow by recalling the spell used in 'The Killer In Me' - meaning he was around in season 7?


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Sunday, June 7, 2009 6:08 PM

VALDIMARIAN


OK, I suppose I'm resurrecting a dead thread here, but I've got to say it for anyone who still believes this.

First off, I saw somewhere in here the question of why the first took so long to mess with Buffy. It was actually in season 3 that the First shows up, but his Bringers were killed before they could open the hellmouth.

It's commonly believed that he couldn't do much before season 6, but after Buffy's resurrection through supernatural means (not just CPR) some sort of cosmic balancing act let him gain in power. Then through season 6 he was slaughtering SITs and Watchers, just in few enough numbers to not call attention to it.

Back to the OP about Warren being back. Who's to say it's actually Warren? There's some pretty heavy suggestion that it's not actually Warren but something using his shape to mess with Amy and the military.

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Friday, June 19, 2009 11:26 AM

CHRISISALL


Hate to admit it, but I've, uhh, kinda given up on the comic- the Fray issues just stopped me cold...
did I make a mistake? Has it gotten good again?


The curious Chrisisall

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Friday, September 18, 2009 10:00 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


(This gets kind of spoilery.)

Yeah, I just got into the comics. I was a little thrown by Warren, but not nearly as much as I was thrown by the 'future history' arc. The more I think about it, actually, the more it upsets me. I thought the series ended very well, and that Joss did a great thing with the whole "okay, you admire this character, now go BE her" thing with the potentials. I thought it really devalued that to then say "oh, by the way, that was a huge mistake and it plunges the world into darkness." I mean, it wasn't bad enough that there was this whole 'Twilight' thing, the looming death of magic. It had to change to the Big Bad being what Buffy and Willow had done. And Willow turning evil and living for centuries and orchestrating her death by Buffy's hand. That was all kinds of epic ed up. Also, I don't much like the art in those issues. Maybe I'm biased.

[/sig]

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Friday, September 18, 2009 10:07 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I thought it really devalued that to then say "oh, by the way, that was a huge mistake and it plunges the world into darkness."

See, I don't mind them going that way in a seperate book, but pushing that stretch in my face in something that's supposed to be a continuation of the series I loved so much is sort of a deal-breaker for me.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, September 18, 2009 10:10 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Groosalugg:
It's an annoying mistake, but not really surprising. There's a lot of positives to continuing the story in comic form, but one of the negatives is that there's just the one writer working on it



Uh, there is more than 1 writer involved on the comic....

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, September 18, 2009 10:32 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by Groosalugg:
It's an annoying mistake, but not really surprising. There's a lot of positives to continuing the story in comic form, but one of the negatives is that there's just the one writer working on it



Uh, there is more than 1 writer involved on the comic....


A whole passel in point of fact!


The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, September 19, 2009 6:39 PM

OPPYH


I stopped collecting the Buffy comics after issue #15.

For a comic series that could have been so fantastic the writers(including Joss) sure took a bath on this one. I thought the Angel comic series was amazing at the start, but that too became less than average.

I guess that comic books just aren't the medium for Buffy stories to be told.

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Sunday, September 20, 2009 4:48 AM

GWEK


I enjoy BUFFY monthly, although I'll admit it has a different feel than the TV series. The character development and plot-twists are still intact, but the feel of the world is a bit more outrageous.

If you can get past the fact that the demons are just more... demon-y, that Old Joss Magic is definitely still there.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Saturday, September 26, 2009 1:29 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by OPPYH:
I stopped collecting the Buffy comics after issue #15.

For a comic series that could have been so fantastic the writers(including Joss) sure took a bath on this one.

I really just liked where Chosen ended it; it was a perfect note, IMO. The comic had no chance of regaing past glory- the difference in the medium & lack of budgetary restraints are not friends to Ms. Summers, it seems.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, January 18, 2010 3:47 PM

GROOSALUGG


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by Groosalugg:
It's an annoying mistake, but not really surprising. There's a lot of positives to continuing the story in comic form, but one of the negatives is that there's just the one writer working on it



Uh, there is more than 1 writer involved on the comic....


Uh, no, there's not. Not at the same time, the way they were back during the days of the show. 1 writer works on his/her own individual arc, sending various drafts back to Joss along the way, and he makes notes on things that need to be changed. Then the next arc gets underway, and the whole process happens again, with a new writer. So you're depending on just 3 people--the arc's writer, Joss, and Scott Allie--to catch any potential goofs before they go public. And in the issues written by Joss, that number goes down to just 2: him and Allie.

So yes, technically you're right: there are several writers working on the comics. But Drew Goddard wasn't reading early drafts of Joss's scripts for issues #1-4, where he might've been able to point out the Warren/First mistake ahead of time. Steven DeKnight wasn't reading Goddard's scripts for #'s 12-15. Brian K. Vaughan wasn't reading Jane Espenson's for #'s 26-29. Yet that DID happen on the TV show, because you had all 6-7 writers sitting around the writing room together day after day, reading each other's early drafts and collaborating to make them better and eliminate as many goofs as possible. That kind of collaboration just isn't possible in the comic format, which was the point I was making. My fault, I guess, for not specifying "just the one writer working on it AT ANY ONE TIME"...

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