BUFFYVERSE

BUFFY Season 8 #5

POSTED BY: JWHEDONADDICT
UPDATED: Friday, September 7, 2007 09:21
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 4263
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Friday, July 27, 2007 12:40 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


Don't actually have mine yet (tho' it's on it's way), just figured I'd start something since everyone usually seems to get theirs before me.

Anyhoo, enjoy!

**************************************
"What if you could have the power? Now? In every generation, one Slayer is born...because a bunch of men who died thousands of years ago made up that rule...
So I say we change the rule. I say my power should be our power...
Every girl who could have the power, will have the power. Can stand up, will stand up...
Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?"--Buffy Summers, May 20, 2003


"In Joss We Trust."

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Friday, July 27, 2007 11:24 AM

GROOSALUGG


Apparently it came out this past Wednesday, the 25th.

Won't have mine 'til probably a week from today, tho...

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Saturday, July 28, 2007 2:48 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


Still haven't got mine either, tho' according to an email I received, it was sent Thursday. Should get it today or Monday, I think. Hoping for today, 'cuz I'm in need of a serious Whedon-fix.

**************************************
"What if you could have the power? Now? In every generation, one Slayer is born...because a bunch of men who died thousands of years ago made up that rule...
So I say we change the rule. I say my power should be our power...
Every girl who could have the power, will have the power. Can stand up, will stand up...
Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?"--Buffy Summers, May 20, 2003


"In Joss We Trust."

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Monday, July 30, 2007 7:14 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


Got mine today. Have to say I really enjoyed it. A little confusing, funny, heartbreaking, the whole nine. Loved the Andrew and Vi commercial. Rona's back (ugh), still tough but less bitchy. Missed the rest of the Scooby Gang (Giles being the only original character in this issue), of course, but don't mind letting others take the wheel for awhile though.

**************************************
"What if you could have the power? Now? In every generation, one Slayer is born...because a bunch of men who died thousands of years ago made up that rule...
So I say we change the rule. I say my power should be our power...
Every girl who could have the power, will have the power. Can stand up, will stand up...
Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?"--Buffy Summers, May 20, 2003


"In Joss We Trust."

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Monday, July 30, 2007 4:10 PM

EMBERS


I got mine at Comic Con and I really loved it,
but it was very sad....

it was fun seeing Andrew & Vi in that old time commercial, which I think they made as an 'orientation' for new slayers...

And I loved seeing Giles!

BTW I also picked up Dark Horse's Omnibus vol 1
full of early comics, including a comic book treatment of Joss original script for the Buffy movie
(the script that the director and actors didn't feel any need to follow, which resulted in a very lame and campy movie... of course that is just my opinion)
Anyway I really enjoyed the Omnibus!


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Tuesday, July 31, 2007 8:00 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


So how was the comic treatment of Joss's original script? Or should I feel stupid for even asking?

**************************************
"What if you could have the power? Now? In every generation, one Slayer is born...because a bunch of men who died thousands of years ago made up that rule...
So I say we change the rule. I say my power should be our power...
Every girl who could have the power, will have the power. Can stand up, will stand up...
Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?"--Buffy Summers, May 20, 2003


"In Joss We Trust."

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Tuesday, July 31, 2007 8:29 AM

EMBERS


Quote:

Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:
So how was the comic treatment of Joss's original script? Or should I feel stupid for even asking?


it was WAY better than the movie version of it!
They drew it looking like SMG as Buffy,
they didn't draw Donald Sutherland (who Joss still hasn't forgiven) as Merrick, they made him look completely different! It wasn't the best art work, but it was fun to read.
I actually enjoyed the entire Omnibus, partly because Dawn exists in this comic book world, so we are getting to read Buffy & Dawn, the childhood years (since on TV Dawn didn't show up until Buffy was a sophomore in college).


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Wednesday, August 1, 2007 4:53 AM

DEEPGIRL187


I just got mine yesterday. I really liked the artwork. George Jeanty is great and all, but it's nice to see a different take on things every once in awhile.

I loved that the girl was able to accept her fate, even despite the circumstances. She died doing something she felt was right.

But I do worry. Buffy and the gang have turned the Slayers into a military organization it seems. Does that mean they see the all of these girls as nameless soldiers, as tools to fight a war? Don't get me wrong, I know that in a normal military, people are proud to serve their countries, and they believe in the work they do. I know that it is inevitable that a Slayer will die a violent death. But I also know that sometimes leaders can be too willing to sacrifice others for a cause. Will all of the new Slayers die without anyone understanding (or caring) what they sacrificed?

Sorry about the long ramble. It's just that I wonder a lot about the consequences of opening up the Slayer line to everyone. I don't think everything will be hunky-dory necessarily.

***************************************************

"But I neeeeed tacos! I need them or I will explode! That happens to me sometimes."

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Friday, August 3, 2007 1:10 PM

GROOSALUGG


Just got my copy today. Weirdly, since none of the "main" characters have more than a small cameo (and even then, it's only Giles), this is my favorite issue so far. The Andrew and Vi bit was great. Rona... didn't dig the artwork on her; the only way I could tell who it was was by skin color (and even then, she looked more like Giles' ex, Olivia) and by having read online that she appears in this issue. Oh, well--nothing's perfect, I guess.

And I have to admit, the non-linear-iness of this one confused the hell out of me the first go-around . Definitely takes a second read-through to get it all straight.

Lastly, I wished it could've been a little bit longer. Even just 6 or 8 pages. The basic story is there, yeah--it certainly doesn't feel like any key elements are missing--but it was a good enough story that I wouldn't have minded a little more depth to it...

--edit-- Also, I liked seeing Nikki in that line of previous slayers. The demons in the background, I'm assuming, are the ones who'd killed various slayers throughout the years--one looks for almost certain like the Master, and another might be the Judge. Another one is partially obscured, but from what's visible, it almost looks like D'Hoffryn; he's not someone you'd expect to ever have killed a slayer, tho, so I suppose it must not actually be him...

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Sunday, August 5, 2007 12:40 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


Embers: Will have to get it eventually when I can afford it, so thanks for that. Might be awhile though.

DeepGirl: I seriously doubt the Scoobies and Co. don't care about the other slayers or the consequences of their power, not to mention the sacrifice they make. I'm not trying to get into a political discussion here or anything, but they're not Bush & Co., and neither is Joss.

Groo: Didn't notice a demon that looked like D'Hoffryn. Will have to read it again to see. Yeah, I agree completely with you on the Rona artwork.


**************************************
"Are you ready to be strong?"--Buffy Summers

"There are three things I don't do. Tan, date, and sing in public."--Angel

"In Joss We Trust."

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Sunday, August 5, 2007 5:03 PM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:
DeepGirl: I seriously doubt the Scoobies and Co. don't care about the other slayers or the consequences of their power, not to mention the sacrifice they make. I'm not trying to get into a political discussion here or anything, but they're not Bush & Co., and neither is Joss.



I don't think they are either, not by any means. I just wonder if needlessly sacrificing lives might be a consequence of having too much power (i.e. the influx of Slayers in the world). Two sayings come to mind here: "With great power comes great responsibility", and "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely."

I wonder which of those sayings the Scoobies will choose to live by?

**************************************************

"But I neeeeed tacos! I need them or I will explode! That happens to me sometimes."

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Sunday, August 5, 2007 5:47 PM

JWHEDONADDICT


Well, I doubt they'll be corrupted.

**************************************
"Are you ready to be strong?"--Buffy Summers

"There are three things I don't do. Tan, date, and sing in public."--Angel

"In Joss We Trust."

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Monday, August 6, 2007 3:04 AM

DEATHISMYGIFT


After reading everyones comments it looks like I am alone. I didn't like this issue at all. The only redeeming thing (for me) was the Andrew and Vi recruitment commercial. I was rolling.

I'm sure once we know the entire arc this issue will fit in fine. I have that kind of faith in Joss and his work. It's just, this issue didn't do it for me.

I did watch the last six episodes of season six over the weekend (the skinning of Warren). After reading the first four issues of season eight these episodes are fun to watch. Just knowing that Amy was lingering about.

I'm on board for the run of the series. I just wasn't as fulfilled as I usually am after reading (and waiting) for my copy.

"it's always complicated and at some point someone has to draw the line and that is always going to be me. you get down on me for cutting myself off but in the end the slayer is always cut off. there's no mystical guide book, no all knowing council, human rules don't apply. there's only me....i am the law" -Buffy the Vampire Slayer

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Monday, August 6, 2007 5:19 AM

GWEK


You're not alone. I was disappointed in the issue, too. It wasn't that it was BAD (the story itself was well-told), so much as that I found myself thinking "That's it? I waited a month or so since the last issue, and that's all I get?" In the long run, a change-of-pace issue is nice, but 4 issues and a single story arc wasn't enough to set the pace in my opinion.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Monday, August 6, 2007 7:31 AM

GROOSALUGG


Someone said this on another board, but I guess what I really liked about this issue was that it got back to the world of slayers and vampires, rather than just catching up with Buffy & the Scoobies and what's going on with them. Thru the first four issues, Buffy the Vampire Slayer didn't slay a single vampire.

Felt nice to kind of get back to basics for a little bit...

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Monday, August 6, 2007 8:47 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


Overall I did like the issue, but I also understand the negative points of view too. Also made the gap between #5 and #6 seem even longer, since #6 will feature (in my opinion at least) honorary Scoob Faith!

**************************************
"Are you ready to be strong?"--Buffy Summers

"There are three things I don't do. Tan, date, and sing in public."--Angel

"In Joss We Trust."

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Monday, August 6, 2007 9:29 AM

GROOSALUGG


Quote:

Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:
Overall I did like the issue, but I also understand the negative points of view too. Also made the gap between #5 and #6 seem even longer, since #6 will feature (in my opinion at least) honorary Scoob Faith!


I agree with you--I can get where the disappointment for some people would come in, especially after a 2-month wait for it. I guess it didn't bother me because I knew way ahead of time what the basic premise of this issue was going to be, and that it probably wasn't going to feature too heavily any of the characters from the show.

Remember S5 of Angel, the big surprise at the end of "Destiny", then it goes on hiatus for two months, and when it finally comes back, it's with "Harm's Way"? Now THAT was a moment. I can see where this would be similar for some ppl...

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Monday, August 6, 2007 10:24 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


I completely agree! I love Harmony (and Mercedes) but that ep. was nowhere near as funny as it should've been.

I'm also kind of hoping Joss remembers how awful it was to

Select to view spoiler:


lose Cordy, then two eps. later lose Fred, then not only to lose the series itself (not his fault) but THEN Wes and eventually Gunn and (okay) Lindsey. Too much too soon...give us a break, no matter how lame it is to believe!

Select to view spoiler:



when it comes to writing the ANGEL comics.

**************************************
"Are you ready to be strong?"--Buffy Summers

"There are three things I don't do. Tan, date, and sing in public."--Angel

"In Joss We Trust."

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Monday, August 6, 2007 2:45 PM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:
I completely agree! I love Harmony (and Mercedes) but that ep. was nowhere near as funny as it should've been.

I'm also kind of hoping Joss remembers how awful it was to

Select to view spoiler:


lose Cordy, then two eps. later lose Fred, then not only to lose the series itself (not his fault) but THEN Wes and eventually Gunn and (okay) Lindsey. Too much too soon...give us a break, no matter how lame it is to believe!
when it comes to writing the ANGEL comics.



**************************************



Agreed. Although I did like Harm's Way. But poor Harmony. She tried and she tried.

Select to view spoiler:


As long as we're talking about one-shot episodes, the one that continues to grate my teeth to this day is The Girl In Question. I mean, here they've just lost Cordy and Fred, but for some reason, the writers see fit to have Angel and Spike gallivanting off after Buffy. Not to mention Andrew's characterization was completely wrong.

Sorry, I get ranty about that episode. And yes, hopefully Joss will spare us some of the pain and misery. But then, it probably wouldn't be Joss if he did.



***************************************************



"But I neeeeed tacos! I need them or I will explode! That happens to me sometimes."

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Tuesday, August 7, 2007 7:26 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


I did like "Harm's Way". It just wasn't as funny as I'd hoped. I also agree with you about "The Girl in Question". Sort of. Overall I don't think the ep. was as entertaining as it should have been, but I think it was completely believable that Spike and Angel would revert AGAIN to 12 year old boys when it came to Buffy and their history both together and with her. And I disagree about Andrew in it. Especially thanks to the comics, when we found out that he hadn't really changed much at all, that he actually set up the fake Buffy to screw with them, I now find it more humorous. And the characterization which was a little odd and shocking at the time, now turns out that it was another role he was playing all along: the part of a grown up, sophisticated, STRAIGHT Andrew.

Now, I see the charactization of Andrew as dead-on in that ep.!!!

**************************************
"Are you ready to be strong?"--Buffy Summers

"There are three things I don't do. Tan, date, and sing in public."--Angel

"In Joss We Trust."

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Tuesday, August 7, 2007 8:15 AM

DEEPGIRL187


And as usual, stupid me misses the big picture.

You're right; now that we have the comics, everything makes sense regarding Andrew. And while I do get your point about Angel and Spike, I still get a little angry about it. Spike I can understand, but not Angel. If he was supposed to love Cordy so much, then you would think he would show more grief regarding her death, and he wouldn't resort to such juvenile behavior regarding Buffy. But then, maybe that's just me.

*****************************************************

"But I neeeeed tacos! I need them or I will explode! That happens to me sometimes."

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Tuesday, August 7, 2007 8:36 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Yanking the thread back on topic for a bit!

Issue #5: I loved it. I'm not even sure why I loved it, but I did. Maybe because I always have a yen for stories about the people in the background of the Buffyverse that we never get to see. Maybe because I'm a big fan of non-linear storytelling. Maybe because it took a throwaway line from the first issue, showed you the person behind it and then made you care just in time to rip your heart out and do the lambada on it. These are the things I love best about Buffy.

Yes, the story was outside the main arc, but I think it brought up a number of important issues. Firstly, there's no safety in numbers. Slayers are still dying, and dying hard, brutal deaths. Secondly, the calling seems to have vastly varied effects on different people. I think that's going to become important in the future. We've already seen the effect being called has on someone who is insane (thanks to Dana in 'Angel' season 5) is it possible that we'll come across someone who has actually been driven insane by being called? It doesn't seem that far fetched.

Thirdly, this girl never met Buffy. She posed as her, risked her life to protect her and the other slayers, died doing her job and never met Buffy. It shows that the slayers have pretty much turned into an army, just as the General in Issue #4 feared. I don't think they even realise that they have, but it's the truth. It may not be a bad thing, but I can't see it not having consequences. If these girls never meet Buffy, how long are they going to follow her orders? Slayers aren't meant to be followers, remember. They're born to be leaders.

I liked the way this story showed us one of the nameless slayers we haven't yet had a chance to meet. The events at the end of 'Buffy' season 7 changed the lives of random women all over the world. It's about time we saw some of that, and some of the fallout. It also yielded two absolute kickass moments for me: The first being when I noticed that all the women shown in 'the chain' were the women featured in the 'Tales of the Slayer' comic, and the moment when the newly called slayer kicks the picnic table (and her friends) out of the way of an articulated truck, throws another guy out of it's path and then takes the brunt of the impact herself. Seriously, how cool was that???

Okay, this is turning out to be longer than I expected but anyway, this one gets my yea vote. And Faith next week! Woo hoo!




Even the littlest Joss chicks are absolutely kickass
Banners, Avatars, LJ Icons and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com

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Tuesday, August 7, 2007 1:07 PM

WYTCHCROFT


pretty much agreeing with ya there.

just to add (and despite how rabid people can get) i love the different views season eight is kicking up - the groans of dissapointment, sighs of happiness and moans about waiting bring back the thrill of watching the show first time around...

loved the art on no.5
loved the andrew vi commercial (always liked her - a little willow to kennedy's jr faith)
found the whole thing touching.
flaw: the truck scene seems to have suffered from editting.

am real happy with season eight - i have my joys (the whole dreamscape - tara's cameo etc) and cursings (warren?! - ahh jeeeeez) and discovering really what an addict i still am!

been watching this site a long time and never spoken up. this place rocks!

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 6:18 AM

CHRISISALL


Liked it a lot...very moving. Typical Joss goodness.

My only beef is that in the letters section they printed a pro-government rant from a fan...I mean, he's shocked that Joss (or any storyteller) would have a giant bureaurocracy (like the U.S. Government) doing bad things...?

But still, I'm lovin' it (tm)

Page-turnin' Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 1:04 PM

GROOSALUGG


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
My only beef is that in the letters section they printed a pro-government rant from a fan...I mean, he's shocked that Joss (or any storyteller) would have a giant bureaurocracy (like the U.S. Government) doing bad things...?


I think that's called "equal time". It's a concept liberals are all in favor of, as long as "equal time" means they get to make their point, and the conservatives get to shut the hell up. (That was a joke--please don't anybody write an angry response to it; I'm not getting into a political argument here.)

When a lot of the left-leaning fans were jumping up and down after the first issue, rejoicing the idea of the US government as the Big Bad, my feelings were the same as this letter-writer's: Give it a rest already. I don't want politics shoved down my throat in something that's supposed to be ENTERTAINMENT. I watch (and now, read) things like Buffy to get away from that stuff for awhile (for the same reason, I'm not loving the new "Legacy of the Force" Star Wars novels).

Sure, the idea was already done in Buffy with the Initiative in S4, but it's all about HOW it's done. Yes, Chris, the idea of a large bureaucracy having corrupt elements makes sense and is fine, as long as the execution of it is good. The Initiative was done well in that respect. It was generic. It wasn't political in any way. The first issue of S8 was different--it practically screamed "Patriot Act!" That's introducing politics into things, and again, I don't want to read that as entertainment... especially when it's a political viewpoint I don't necessarily agree with.

But as S8 has gone along, it's developed in a way that doesn't bother me. As it's turned out (so far, anyway), this isn't the government going after Buffy and her group of "terrorists". It was ONE high-ranking member of the military abusing his position and power to advance the goals of a secret group (Twilight) that he was a member of. That was my only problem with the letter you mentioned--that even in the second issue, I thought this revelation about General Voll had been made pretty clear, so to write in and make the complaints this fan did just shows that some of the finer details apparently escaped him as he read through it...

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 1:21 PM

WYTCHCROFT


um - i agree that the letter had its right to be printed but... (and before any big argument breaks on this thread - coz i'll run off then)
just to ask:

do you like battlestar galactica?

did you like angel - especially season 5 and what Gunn did at the conclusion?

what did you make of characters in Buffy like The Mayor - or episodes like Gingerbread?

do you think Buffy 7 reflects ambiguous feelings post 9/11?

Buffy as a whole - and in season 7 it is not subtle - makes great points about female empowerment (Buffy knocks over the original watchers - willow becomes a guardian - the potentials become fufilled etc) as well as having gay characters -
do you see issues such as these as non-political?

I am not questioning or pidgeon-holing your personal ideology - just the idea of simple ENTERTAINMENT... and am genuinely interested not angry/picking a fight - yawn - etc.

stay shiny

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 6:16 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Groosalugg:
please don't anybody write an angry response to it; I'm not getting into a political argument here.

Let's not get into a political argument here, right?
*In the voice of Sue Storm*
No. Let's!

All Governments suck; they always have. It's always a matter of degree. They get in a man's way, or livelyhood, or life. Sometimes they end it, prematurely. Sometimes they attempt to take over a lot- maybe all. A necessary evil, some might say, like the crap in a vaccine; more good than harm is the idea. Like a family with ten children, one usually turns out to be a d**k.
So when peeps weege about Joss' depiction of an evil agent in ANY government, they're just dripping with denial; NO big entity is without it's corruption. So EFF that unilateral DIRTBAG and his blind following of his white-hat-wearing do-almost-nothing-wrong mentality, and LET HIM EAT CAKE!!!!

Did I sound all righteous there?

Actually, I agree, Groos. Politics should be hidden in the subtext, like in Serenity. The 'Patriot Act' allusions came too close for entertainment value for me, too.

Just sayin' Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 7:30 PM

GROOSALUGG


Wytchcroft, I'm not blind to the fact that politics are at work in all Joss's shows/movies/comics. I also know full-well what those politics are, and that they don't mesh very well with my own (in most cases, anyway; I'm all for female empowerment, and have zero problem with homosexuality, for example). But what I appreciate about him is that, for the most part, he keeps the politics subtle enough in his fiction that if you don't necessarily agree with all of it--like me--it's not hard to ignore and just enjoy the story.

"Buffy" and "Angel" have always been at their best when the real-life metaphor was well-hidden. An episode like "Beauty and the Beasts", or the Willow's-magick-addiction storyline, were poorly-done because the point they're trying to get across is so in-your-face and obvious. It's impossible to ignore.

To me, a writer injecting their politics into their show/movie/novel, whether it's done seriously, or even as a joke (Cordelia: "I know who's President, and that I sorta wish I didn't") is something that smacks of arrogance. Yeah, the people who agree with that viewpoint are gonna sit there and say, "Right on!", but the people who disagree with it are just gonna get annoyed. But nobody's going to be convinced enough to change their opinion on an issue by watching "Buffy", "Star Trek", or "Star Wars", so what's the point? The left-wingers are going to resent being preached to by the right-wingers, and vice versa. And last time I checked, there was a fairly-even split among those two groups in this country, so in doing that, all you're doing is taking a pretty good chance of p***ing off half your audience.

Like Chris said in his last post, make everybody happy by leaving the politics as deeply-buried in the subtext as possible, and let's all just be entertained for a couple of hours before the 11:00 news comes on and we're dragged kicking and screaming back to real-life...

(Oh, and I've never watched "Battlestar Galactica", so I have no idea what message they may or may not be trying to get across.)

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 8:44 PM

WYTCHCROFT


just a quick reply - please don't misunderstand - i'm all for an inclusive entertaining show -
(us firefly fans NEED 'em!)

NO/ONE likes to get preached at sure.

in my fic work i'm aware that when i touch on issues there's a risk of alienating people - so you make a choice. e.g. a very unsubtle katrina reference in my fic that was posted on the anniversary - i guess you just go on what you feel passionate about.

the trick is (and this is why JOSS etc are so good) to get people to THINK about 'issues' not TELL people (what to think) about issues.

people get defensive but THINKING is good - i need to have my ego/prejudices/politics/identity stretched and tested... but again, you're right - stretched and tested is NOT preached at or derrided.

but eventually - y'know - you make a stand...
and i demand some intelligence in things - i would hate to have any creative artist forced to 'bury' (your words) edgy issues or politics or wotever, in the subtext (ie - where it can be ignored).
for the sake of entertaining the masses.

Quote:


make everybody happy by leaving the politics as deeply-buried in the subtext as possible, and let's all just be entertained for a couple of hours before the 11:00 news



i ask for more than that. Fox don't.

let me restate finally and importantly that i have no opinion about you or your politics nor do i have some fixed opinion that only one side of anything should have a voice. Good vs evil, for us / against us - Left side / right side etc - that's a load of simplistic baloney to me. i LOVE the fact that this sites holds a massive diversity of people, ages, backgrounds, race, gender and national background. i ever meet you at a con... you really think i'm gonna care about your politics??? nope - just that you love firefly!

stay shiny.

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 9:29 PM

GROOSALUGG


I understand what you're saying. And in some circumstances, I might even agree with you. If there's a subject that the creator feels is important to the story he/she is telling (ie, not just gratuitous politicking for their latest pet cause), and that hasn't been beaten to death already, then maybe a case can be made for it. But that last caveat is key: "not beaten to death already." That was my initial concern about S8 (and the concern of the letter-writer in issue #5 that Chris cited): I don't want or need more bashing of the Bush administration in my fiction. It's been done already. A lot. Find a new theme. Fortunately, that's apparently not the direction Joss is going in with this story, or else he might've lost me fairly quickly.

I don't want my entertainment to be dumbed-down by any means (and I know you never used that phrase), but I also want to be entertained by it, first and foremost. Jokes like the Cordelia line I referenced, among others ("Oh, look: the Americans are relying on violence to solve their problems; what a surprise") are completely unnecessary, and only serve to aggravate the 50% or so of the viewership that doesn't happen to share those beliefs.

Quote:

Originally posted by wytchcroft:
let me restate finally and importantly that i have no opinion about you or your politics nor do i have some fixed opinion that only one side of anything should have a voice. Good vs evil, for us / against us - Left side / right side etc - that's a load of simplistic baloney to me. i LOVE the fact that this sites holds a massive diversity of people, ages, backgrounds, race, gender and national background. i ever meet you at a con... you really think i'm gonna care about your politics??? nope - just that you love firefly!


It's all good. It's actually an interesting discussion to have, as long as it all stays friendly...

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Wednesday, September 5, 2007 12:07 AM

WYTCHCROFT


Quote:


It's all good. It's actually an interesting discussion to have, as long as it all stays friendly...



LOL! hell i'm just made of friendly!


and thanks - you really made me look again at a few things y'know?

(music swells)
let's go to work...

let's go get drunk!


the end

stay shiny

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Wednesday, September 5, 2007 1:18 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Groosalugg:
"Oh, look: the Americans are relying on violence to solve their problems; what a surprise"

Funny, I took that line to be a shot at general American Cowboy mentality, not a particular Administration or political ideology, and as such, found it hi-larious...(Much like that line in Armageddon when the Russian on the space station called Americans "Bunch of cowboys...")

Six-shooter Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 5, 2007 3:50 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Groosalugg:

Like Chris said in his last post, make everybody happy by leaving the politics as deeply-buried in the subtext as possible,

Well, not as deeply as POSSIBLE, just not in your face.
And the Cordelia line was within my boundaries, 'cause she didn't say Bush or anything, and it may well be applicable to almost any president we might get in the future...
But the 'terrorist cell' thing in the Buffy comic is a little specific IMO- like in Heroes when they mention 'homeland security'...I don't need it that connected to today's reality, and I fear that it dates itself that way too.

Then again, in Star Trek 6 we heard "Only Nixon could go to China"...

I guess it's mostly good Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 5, 2007 7:50 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
And Faith next week! Woo hoo!


*drools*

Slobberin' Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 5, 2007 2:03 PM

CHARLIETHEBLOODY


coming in on this late so with reference to those two lines, I don't think they were overtly political or necessarily joss injecting his politics into it. cordelia is a character in her own right with her own voice and that's totally something I'd imagine her saying, she's no the sort of person to get deep into politics but I can see her making throwaway remarks like that.

for the second one, come on, that's funny ok, so neither of our boys are originally american but angel has at least been naturalized. like chris said, I also see it as a general comment on american gung-hoism, not specifically political. it also mocks the mediterranean way "grazie, prego, kiss kiss", and in other episodes regularly mocks british cultural traits, you got to be able to laugh at yourself...

plus remember it's not a 50/50 split republican and democrat, and alienating one side, joss's shows and now the comics do very well all over the world in countries that have completely different political systems to you so it's kind of a narrow view to see it as being targeted just at you guys.

on topic, I really loved #5, yeah it was too short but that goes for all of them. actually I wasn't very impressed with #4 so I guess that also made it seem better. I really liked getting to see someone on the sidelines, and it really tugged on the heart strings, she seemed desperately alone compared to the others at slayer central and I'm having trouble reconciling this kind of treatment with what we know/expect of the scooby gang. she and the girl in italy are at best decoys and at worst bait. they don't have the experience, training or (necessarily) talent that she has and yet they're put out there as targets to take the heat off her... I don't see how they can think that's ok...

to whoever said further up "I doubt they'll be corrupted", I doubt your doubt... it's not like that isn't joss's favourite place to place to take characters


--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."





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Wednesday, September 5, 2007 5:06 PM

GROOSALUGG


Quote:

Originally posted by charliethebloody:
for the second one, come on, that's funny ok, so neither of our boys are originally american but angel has at least been naturalized. like chris said, I also see it as a general comment on american gung-hoism, not specifically political. it also mocks the mediterranean way "grazie, prego, kiss kiss", and in other episodes regularly mocks british cultural traits, you got to be able to laugh at yourself...


Okay, point taken. I'll give you that one.

I'm sticking to my guns on the Cordelia line, tho. Mentioning like/dislike of political figures is just not something that was done on the two shows at any other time (unless you can point out another example I've forgotten; obviously-fictional ones like Senator Brucker don't count), so I just didn't see the need for it. Would Cordy say that? Yeah, maybe. But why does she have to? Why can't we just leave the overtly political stuff out entirely, regardless of which side of the aisle it's coming from? Like I said, I get enough of that stuff on the news, in the newspaper, and on the internet. Things like "Buffy", "Angel", and "Firefly" oughta be a 42-minute escape from reality.

Politics and religion are just two of the touchiest subjects you'll ever find, because they're areas that help form the foundations of what it is that people believe in--what makes a person who they are. They cause angry arguments and hard feelings, because no one likes to be told that what they believe in is crap, whatever those beliefs happen to be. Best just to steer clear completely if at all possible...

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Thursday, September 6, 2007 4:26 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Groosalugg:


Politics and religion are just two of the touchiest subjects you'll ever find, because they're areas that help form the foundations of what it is that people believe in--what makes a person who they are. They cause angry arguments and hard feelings, because no one likes to be told that what they believe in is crap, whatever those beliefs happen to be.

Yo, I WANT to be challenged on my politics and/or religious beliefs! Tell me I'm full of crap if that's what you think, just back up that assessment with more than ad-hominem. The subjects are only touchy when one or more peeps decide in an argument that "I'm right no matter what you say, or what the issue is, or what the facts indicate!"
My only hard feelings come from having to unravel circular logic or confront "ignorant bliss".
Apart from that, I'm up for anything. My beliefs are not so fragile, or conversely, so set in stone that I'm easily rattled.

Example: in an ep of Angel they brought out the idea that trying not to get ANYONE killed is what could get EVERYONE killed- at first glance I took that as a slam at pacifists, or left-thinking in general. Then I thought about it, and realized that in many situations, that is fair to say. See? Challenge sometimes brings on realization. I find that to be fascinating, and sometimes even growth-inducing.

So don't dismiss the real world in our entertainment alltogether, Groos, it sometimes serves a purpose...don't ya think?
(better not say I'm full of crap, or I'll turn mean and green!!!!)


Chrisisall Banner

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Thursday, September 6, 2007 4:31 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by charliethebloody:
I don't see how they can think that's ok...



I had some trouble with that too...Joss can't not 'shake our trees', eh? Well, we'll see where it goes...

Thanks for the 'mock back-up', Charlie Chrisisall

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Thursday, September 6, 2007 8:31 AM

CHARLIETHEBLOODY


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Thanks for the 'mock back-up', Charlie Chrisisall



s'what I do darling...

silly, silly, british man

--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."





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Thursday, September 6, 2007 8:51 AM

CHARLIETHEBLOODY


Quote:

Originally posted by Groosalugg:
Mentioning like/dislike of political figures is just not something that was done on the two shows at any other time (unless you can point out another example I've forgotten; obviously-fictional ones like Senator Brucker don't count), so I just didn't see the need for it.



ooh, that sounds like a challange


Quote:


Would Cordy say that? Yeah, maybe. But why does she have to? Why can't we just leave the overtly political stuff out entirely, regardless of which side of the aisle it's coming from? Like I said, I get enough of that stuff on the news, in the newspaper, and on the internet. Things like "Buffy", "Angel", and "Firefly" oughta be a 42-minute escape from reality.



I don't think so though, yeah there's a certain amount of escapism but the characters are also supposed to be living alongside us in our world (b&a at least) so it seems more odd to me that they don't make more reference to world events... you've got a group of intelligent, fairly well educated (ok, none of them finished college), socially aware young people, and they're not talking about the war? they're not making bush jokes?

I think politics is kept out of it for the most part, {and religion, I actually find it a bit frustrating the way they manage to ignore religion whilst using so much religious iconography and mythology) and I can see your point about not alienating people so I guess that makes sense, but I also want the characters to be believable and for that I think you need them to be rooted in the now, and the what's going on now. that was one of the things that made buffy so successful at the beginning, the way it was rooted in popular culture, and politics, particularly politics lite (ie. ripping the piss out of bush) is a huge part of popular culture...

--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."





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Thursday, September 6, 2007 10:45 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by charliethebloody:
the way it was rooted in popular culture, and politics, particularly politics lite (ie. ripping the piss out of bush) is a huge part of popular culture...




And they made small refrence to the war in season seven when Buffy was counceling that kid whose brother was 'over there'.
...And Dark Angel made refrence to it before it had even begun; a character named Bruno had 'seen action in Iraq' in the pilot...

PopChrisisall

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Thursday, September 6, 2007 4:30 PM

CHARLIETHEBLOODY


oh yeah, I'd forgotten that, that didn't have any kind of 'stance' though did it... I've still got my thinking hat on for other political references, maybe there weren't any but that just goes to show how much it was kept out of it...

--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."





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Friday, September 7, 2007 6:49 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


I still think that Cordy line is hilarious myself. No, I don't like Bush at all, but I don't see where it necessarily has to be about Bush, since she didn't name him specifically. Bush is never named in either Buffy or Angel...ever. Even when Fredikins puts up the Dixie Chicks poster in "Conviction".

Britney Spears was mentioned in both, though. Why isn't everyone more upset about THAT?!! Eeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

***********************************************
"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel

"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya

For Joss!



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Friday, September 7, 2007 8:38 AM

CHRISISALL


Em, did ya get #6 yet?

Waits with baited breath Chrisisall

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Friday, September 7, 2007 8:40 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:


Britney Spears was mentioned in both, though. Why isn't everyone more upset about THAT?!!

I like her early work- before she sold out
AND WENT GORRAM CRAZY!!!!!!

Dawn-like Chrisisall

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Friday, September 7, 2007 9:02 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


She was originally supposed to play April-the-robot (confirmed by Marti Noxon) but couldn't work it into her schedule.

Freddie Prinze was originally supposed to play Drac but couldn't for the same reason.


Let the nightmares begin, people!

***********************************************
"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel

"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya

"You let him get me. You let him get me."--Connor

For Joss!



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Friday, September 7, 2007 9:13 AM

EMBERS


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Em, did ya get #6 yet?

Waits with baited breath Chrisisall



OMG! What a great episode, er... I mean: issue!
Huge big spoilers follow:

Select to view spoiler:



Poor Faith, alone....
and having to stake a bunch of kids... that's pretty harsh!

I've always loved Faith, even when she did her worst I always felt her pain. The character has always had so much pain and vulnerability.

AND FAITH STABBED GILES W/A FORK! YIKES!!
And Faithing think 'cunning' means oral sex (LOL).

I loved Gile's connecting his Ripper days/mistakes with Faith's past, that was really wonderful.

But the best part of the whole issue was in the letters section when Joss confessed that he forgot


Oh and I loved seeing Doctor Who, but shouldn't that have been a police box instead of a telephone behind him?
(so silly, I just love the silly stuff...which IMO includes Gile's very silly Yellow Submarine sweater - probably hand knit by one of his slayers)



A really great beginning, I had no trouble hearing the voices of the characters I love so much...
I am already a big fan of Brian K. Vaughan...
I've been loving 'Y the Last Man' and 'ExMachina'
I highly recommend 'Pride of Baghdad'

and of course I own all of 'Runaways'!


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Friday, September 7, 2007 9:21 AM

CHRISISALL


I'm buying 'em, but an end-of-season trade collection is what I'm ultimately hoping for...*rubs hands together maniacally*

1-800-CHOSEN-1 Chrisisall

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