FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Safe - comments from a newbie Browncoat

POSTED BY: WR_ORION
UPDATED: Saturday, March 28, 2015 18:39
SHORT URL: http://bit.ly/11ZSYur
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Wednesday, May 1, 2013 5:49 AM

WR_ORION


So I watched "Safe" and "Our Mrs. Reynolds" for the first time last night. I decided to start a new thread for my comments for a couple of reasons.

First, if I'm not mistaken there is no Search function here so it would take quite a bit of time to page through old posts. If I'm wrong please let me know because there are many things I'd love to search for in the 10s of thousands of posts that are hidden here!

More importantly, I saw another discussion about "Our Mrs. Reynolds" and thought that would be safe to browse. Nope! It mentions there that Inara has some serious illness? Well wish I wouldn't have found that out before I was supposed to! Oh well, anyway....

My comment was actually related to "Safe". Now maybe I'm just getting sentimental in my old age, (yeah I am but anyway) is it strange that I got a little choked up when River started dancing? I really can't believe how powerful this series seems to be. The characters just seem so deep, much more than I would have imagined after only watching half a dozen episodes. Especially since there really hasn't been much history at all with the exception of River and Simon.

Frankly I'm upset that I'm almost half way through already. I'd throw a tantrum if I thought it would do any good. ;-)

Personally I'd be all for an animated series voiced by the original actors. But that's a discussion best left to its own topic.

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Wednesday, May 1, 2013 6:37 AM

OLDGUY

What Would Mal do ?


first off...WELCOME!
And yes, whether it is SAFE or Our Mrs, they manage to develop such deep character traits within a 42 min episode...more importantly they aren't just working hard to develop a character, they weave it into the story line so very very well...
that's the huge delta between Firefly and say, Defiance...which I want to like, but is coming up short on writer skills.

Safe told so many stories within the one episode..
you got the whole cow business which instantly gave you a feel for ongoing life in their working world and dealing with less than savory folk...all the while bringing River's mindset into the game so well....and then carrying the relationship thread with Doc and Kaylee only to wisk you away to the world of the small community..no I didn't overlook the dance...it and the berry scene told you so much about the sibling relationship.

The hard line of Mal early on, and yet his complete and deep sense of loyalty and knowing the value of those who have crossed his world....makes it worth coming back for his crew...and one of my favorite scenes in the entire series is the end when Mal and Zoe are walking into the village and their usual interplay... "looks like we're just about in the nic of time...what's that make us... Zoe... Big damn heros sir !" it just doesn't get any better.

in Mr.s Reynolds... the interplay between Jayne and Mal with Jayne's would-be gun trade..which later gets play in shooting the coils of the trap...that's the kind of writing that makes these shows completely fulfilling...never mind that Mrs Reynolds managed to roll so many of the rest of the crew into the script...most writers/directors can't pull that off in a 2 hour movie..much less in a single episode...Joss rocks!

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Wednesday, May 1, 2013 8:38 AM

WR_ORION


I am still wondering about the end of Safe though. I haven't decided yet if Mal decided to go back for Doc because he was part of his crew...or if he made him part of his crew (in his own mind) so he'd have a reason to go back for him. Or then again, maybe he just felt he had to go back for him, or was talked / guilted into it, and then compensated himself for it by making the Doc part of the crew.

It's funny but I bet everyone here already has their own answer for this because you all "know" the characters so well. Me on the other hand, I'm just getting to know them and am still forming my opinion of who they really are.

I must admit though, after seeing the image showing the various characters and their alignments, I could certainly see the chaotic neutral alignment of Jayne during this episode.

I tell ya, I'm just loving this.

"Go then, there are other worlds than these."

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Wednesday, May 1, 2013 10:03 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Welcome to the party, you lucky son of a gun!

Do you, or does anybody else, know Spider Robinson's thing: you introduce a newbie to something GREAT, and then stand back in anticipation of all the NEAT stuff he's about to experience? and cheer his luck, to be seeing it for the first time? Works even if you don't introduce him, you're just around to watch.

We used to all chime in, invite the newbies to share a drink and a nibble from the buffet. Not sure how many of us who did that are around, but Mrs BC just made some fresh bao-- help yourself. And I'm sure there's some of Kaylee's inter-engine brew around here somewhere, it's the good stuff, vintage Tuesday.

Not sure, either, who's got the key to the official virtual browncoat locker, but here's a requisition for one, to be presented with appropriate ceremony. If we can't get in, we'll wake up Jayne 'n have him bust it open.

Would you believe that the best is yet to come? Most (I' ll correct that, maybe not MOST, but MANY) of us think that Joss 'n them were still working out the style in the early episodes, and got better as they went along. Shindig, Our Mrs. R and Safe are usually about where everybody agrees that things started getting REALLY GOOD.

You must be watching in DVD order, nowadays, so you've already seen Serenity, the Big Damn Pilot. It might be the exception to that, it's my personal favorite, but you've still got 6 or 7 eps left, and they get even better and better.

IN answer to your question about Safe, Mal made Simon and River part of HIS crew at the end if the pilot. They were HIS, he wasn't about to ever leave them behind. He would've gone into the hills to hunt for them right away, except for The Shepard being wounded. He doesn't WANT to leave, even to take care of THAT.

Or, at least that's my opinion. That's part of why the writing is so good. Other folks hear the same performance, interpret the words in a slightly different way, reach a different conclusion. And they aren't necessarily WRONG, either.

So step right up, hoist one, and tell us what you think. You're more than welcome, I doubt that anybody will tell you you're wrong. Maybe that you're part of a different group, like the folks who believe that Shakespeare wrote his plays, vs the group that believes somebody else did.


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Wednesday, May 1, 2013 10:10 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Oh, Jeez, you raise so many good points in your post, I don't want to hog 'em all.
But yes, you're reacting to River dancing exactly as you're supposed to. By then, you know the stress that everybody is under, the desperation of the Tams' flight from the Alliance, the pursuit, the damage she has suffered.
And yet, in the middle of all that, here's something she can do, and enjoy, just the pleasure of it. Right up to the moment where Reality breaks back in...

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Wednesday, May 1, 2013 11:56 AM

WR_ORION


Yep, that last statement nailed my feelings for it.

I am in fact watching in the intended DVD order. Unfortunately I watched Serenity the movie first! Oh well, I'm doing my best to mind block myself and pretend I haven't seen it yet ;-)

See, I don't remember them already being made a part of the crew, in any semi-official manner anyway, but it's things like this that already have me looking forward to my second watch through. Even though I'm already bummed that my first watch through is already half over. Honestly it's an entirely new feeling that I've never had with any type of media before really.

"Go then, there are other worlds than these."

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Wednesday, May 1, 2013 12:37 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Quote:

Originally posted by wr_orion:
...it's things like this that already have me looking forward to my second watch through.


...and the third, and fourth, etc. For last year's 10th Anniversary celebration I watched it all again in order, including all the bonus features, then the Big Damn Movie again. It was at least the twentieth time for me, probably much more than that but I've lost count.

Welcome aboard the best boat in the 'verse. Chow's in ten, no need to dress.




wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Wednesday, May 1, 2013 12:54 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by wr_orion:
Yep, that last statement nailed my feelings for it.

I am in fact watching in the intended DVD order. Unfortunately I watched Serenity the movie first! Oh well, I'm doing my best to mind block myself and pretend I haven't seen it yet ;-)

See, I don't remember them already being made a part of the crew, in any semi-official manner anyway, but it's things like this that already have me looking forward to my second watch through. Even though I'm already bummed that my first watch through is already half over. Honestly it's an entirely new feeling that I've never had with any type of media before really.

"Go then, there are other worlds than these."



We're having a bit of a language problem here. Serenity is the title of the movie, referred to by us-the-hip, as the "BDM"., the " Big Damn Movie".
It was also, officially, the title of the pilot episode, the 2 hour two- parter where Simon, Book and Dobson come on board, with River in the big freezer box.
That's the first thing on Disk 1 of the DVD box set, placed where Joss intended it to be, where it belongs, instead of being aired DEAD LAST, where FOX showed it. SO when I say Serenity, I mean that-- the pilot episode. I refer to it as the BDP ( Big Damn Pilot), a usage that has never caught on.
The last scene of the pilot has Mal saying that "we could use a doctor. there might be a place here for you and your sister." I take that for a pretty clear job offer, and since they're still there for The Train Job and so on, i consider that it's been accepted.
I'm part of the school that doesn't accept Serenity, the Big Damn Movie AT ALL. Blank it out of my memory. It's GONE! NEVER WAS. Never happened.

In case you haven't seen it:

Select to view spoiler:



JOSS KILLED OFF MY TWO FAVORITE CHARACTERS.



And you're right: nobody gets it all the first pass thru. You'll catch stuff the second time thru, then hear about something you don't remember or didn't see, then go back and watch AGAIN, and sometimes, AGAIN, and you'll still catch something new, or hear about a different interpretation and watch again and say, "Maybe so..."

Many of us hardcore Browncoats have watched the episodes dozens of times, obsessively, over and over. It's one of the ways you can tell the REALLY geeked-out. ( And I'm one of 'em, and proud of it.)

Enjoy!

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Thursday, May 2, 2013 3:51 AM

WR_ORION


Ok, so to clarify...

I watched the BDM first, prior to watching any of the 2002 series episodes.

I then started watching the series, beginning with the BDP, 2 part pilot.

I don't remember Mal giving that offer. That does seem to change my earlier thoughts to the possibilities of his thought process.

So now I've unfortunately remembered one death is the BDM, although I suppose I can pretend that the BDM isn't really "real". I am still a little upset though that I have found out that Inara is sick, and I guess also that she leaves at some point, based on what I remember from the BDM.

Enough! I'll talk more later when I have something interesting to say, in my own mind anyway ;-)

"Go then, there are other worlds than these."

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Thursday, May 2, 2013 5:52 AM

REAVERFAN


The "Inara is dying" thing came from Morena Baccarin, at a con. There's no mention of it in any of the shows or the movie, though that revelation does explain why she was attracted to Mal, but pushed him away. At the end, they still weren't an item, and it leaves you wondering if that would ever happen.

Simon and Kaylee finally got together, and I was glad they did. Kaylee's the kind of girl who appreciates something 'twixt her nethers, and Simon is a great guy.

It seems to signal the end of most shows when the romantic tension finally breaks (Moonlighting and Castle, among others). Once the boy gets the girl, you have nothing left but a regular romance, and that gets old, particularly in action shows.



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Thursday, May 2, 2013 7:10 AM

BYTEMITE


Wasn't in the series or movie, but Joss gave a response and it was also brought up in the ten year reunion. Although I think the specific phrasing of the question and the way it was brought up leaves some potential for a mislead from the cast and crew and some wiggle room. Anyway.

We all still like talking Firefly, so feel free to step up and ask your questions and we'll come out of the woodworks to discuss with you.

My big concern with the Simon/Kaylee hookup in the movie is that now one of them might really be fair game for Joss sniping. Though Simon and Kaylee are different enough that I could see them breaking up a few times to create some drama around them too.

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Thursday, May 2, 2013 11:12 AM

EBFIDDLER


I just love that scene in Safe with River dancing...my favorite part of that episode is the intercut of the dancing/gunfight over the soundtrack of the music playing.

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Tuesday, May 7, 2013 1:10 PM

DOMOKUN1


Quote:

Originally posted by OLDGUY:
they weave it into the story line so very very well...
that's the huge delta between Firefly and say, Defiance...which I want to like, but is coming up short on writer skills.



Yeah, not to stray too far off - but I'm having issues with Defiance as well. Such a huge lead up to it, and I must admit - so far I'm a bit disappointed. Still, holding out hope that it get better - but there is no doubt about the skills as you've pointed out. Defiance seems pretty disjointed.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 8:46 AM

WR_ORION


Ok so I re-watched Safe and Our Mrs. Reynolds again last night. I've seen all the episodes but the last one currently, but started over at Safe because my wife keeps missing episodes so...I'm not complaining! I get to watch them again so all is good.

So the first thing I found is that I have a new opinion on Mal's view on Simon (and River?) in Safe. Yes, I now see what everyone was saying. Simon WAS already part of the crew. But I was still a little uncertain of his intentions, actually until just now when I'm talking (typing) it out. When they were leaving the planet Mal said "Forget about them. We've already lost 2 members of my crew, we're not going to lose a third" or something to that effect. Which at the time gave me the impression, "they're dead, forget about them and move on". But which I've now decided meant 'forget about them for now, until Book gets taken care of'
So I do think he always intended to go back looking for them, but he had accepted that they might already be dead.

Actually the first thing I found was that even on the second viewing I felt emotional when River smiled and danced. Choked me up. It amazes me that she is this odd, strange, quirky girl until...well until she's not. Then she smiles and the real River shows through which is a beautiful young woman. Amazed me again.

On to Our Mrs. Reynolds. So since I already knew about the deception that was going on, I paid more attention to the details this time. All I can say is WOW! River giving her the evil eye in every scene in which she was visible in this episode. Amazing that I saw NONE of that the first time around. But lo and behold, there stands River in the background staring Saffron down the whole time. So damn cool.

Also, was it just me or was there an obvious double entendre in the title? I must have just glossed over it the first time but I see now (maybe? I can't believe it was coincidence) that the title referred to Saffron as Mrs. Reynolds of course, but also to Mal being dressed as a woman in the opening scene. Or am I off?


"Go then, there are other worlds than these."

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 9:58 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by wr_orion:


On to Our Mrs. Reynolds. So since I already knew about the deception that was going on, I paid more attention to the details this time. All I can say is WOW! River giving her the evil eye in every scene in which she was visible in this episode. Amazing that I saw NONE of that the first time around. But lo and behold, there stands River in the background staring Saffron down the whole time. So damn cool.



OMG!You see what I mean, I've never noticed that! But thinking back, I can see it in my head, in a couple of scenes.

But that ties into something in the deleted scenes. Go ahead and check it out, if you haven't. You'll get it, I think. I won't spoil it. The deleted scene from OMR is hysterical. And River has a line in it: " The Captain took a wife!", delivered in a very disapproving, shrill tone.

I've never quite understood why her tone was like that. Just thought of it right now, maybe she's jealous, she's got some kind of schoolgirl crush on Mal? It's a possible interpretation, gonna hafta watch again and think about it.

There's an entire school of fan-fic that starts from a (post-BDM) romance between Mal and River, rejecting Mal/'Nara. Not sure I, or you, wanta go there. Strikes me as kinda icky, but there's folks believe in it.

And that brings up another question or two, answers not required but worth thinking about: Are the Deleted Scenes canonical? As in, True? They came from Joss, but got cut. Does that count? How much weight can you give to the RPG game? Its manual was the only source of data other than the episodes for a long time, the only semi-authoritative reference

And of course, fan-fic. How valid is any of it? Does any of it count? Some of it is logical extrapolation of what Joss gave us, trying to fill in the gaps he left. Does it carry any weight, even if logical?


Quote:


Also, was it just me or was there an obvious double entendre in the title? I must have just glossed over it the first time but I see now (maybe? I can't believe it was coincidence) that the title referred to Saffron as Mrs. Reynolds of course, but also to Mal being dressed as a woman in the opening scene. Or am I off?




I dunno, never thought of that one. I'm not sure what that title means. I always took it as a reference to Our Mrs.( Corrected: Our Miss Brooks) Brooks, a TV show from the dawn of television, when I was a little kid. But not much links Saffron to that character, who was a school teacher, if I remember correctly, and a model of propriety. Hey, your opinion on the title is no better, or worse, than anybody else's.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 11:01 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

And that brings up another question or two, answers not required but worth thinking about: Are the Deleted Scenes canonical? As in, True? They came from Joss, but got cut. Does that count? How much weight can you give to the RPG game? Its manual was the only source of data other than the episodes for a long time, the only semi-authoritative reference

And of course, fan-fic. How valid is any of it? Does any of it count?


The deleted scenes are canon because they were in the original shooting scripts. The one from "Our Mrs. Reynolds" is on pages 163-4 of Volume One of the Official Companion. Fanfic? Not canon at all. The scripts for the episodes, the BDM and the comics are definitely canon, but I have no idea about the validity of information in the RPG.




wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 11:22 AM

WR_ORION


Oooo deleted scenes? I hadn't even thought of that until now. Never noticed an option for it while watching. Now I have something else to look forward to! Shiny.

I will say "Ick" to the Mal / River relationship idea. Yeah...that just ain't right.

Are deleted scenes canonical? I'd personally say yes as typically those, or at least quite a few, are in "director's cut" versions of movies, and might very well have been included if there were no time constraints. Of course that wouldn't be the case if the deleted scene in questions directly contradicted other info in the series. Hmm.

I personally can't see fan-fic or the rpg having any weight for the main characters. Sideline characters or new characters in the Verse, or even the Verse itself, I could go along with. If people write about Badger and tell his story, that might be OK. Just stay away from the crew. Obviously just my opinion and I reserve the right to change my mind in the future ;-)

Now as far as the title Our Mrs. Reynolds...who did YOU feel it was referring to? Our Mrs. Brooks not withstanding, was it referring to Mal dressing up as a woman, or Saffron becoming "Mrs. Reynolds"? I think Zoe might have even called her that at one point.
When I "see" the episode in my head, I see Mal in his bonnet. But when I think about it, it seems obvious that it's referring to the woman that Malcolm Reynolds married.




"Go then, there are other worlds than these."

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 11:47 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

But that ties into something in the deleted scenes. Go ahead and check it out, if you haven't. You'll get it, I think. I won't spoil it. The deleted scene from OMR is hysterical. And River has a line in it: " The Captain took a wife!", delivered in a very disapproving, shrill tone.


Honestly I always thought some of the weirdness in that scene was River channeling various crew emotions about relationships. That particular complaint has quite a bit of Inara in it. And the River and Simon thing borrows probably from Kaylee.

Both Inara and Kaylee would probably be thinking about marriage and relationships and such due to the events of the episode.

As for Mal/River sometimes I get those vibes too. Don't really like those vibes but I have to admit they seem to be there.

I consider everything official canon unless it contradicts itself. The problem with the Saffron River Simon scene is that I know why it was probably cut - if Saffron gets a good ID on either Simon or River, then we have to ask why she didn't squeal them out to the Feds. Maybe she knows better than Jayne that she'd end up dead instead, but it still raised questions that Joss was happier not dealing with. So he downplayed any interactions between Saffron and Simon and River.

Fanfic is only canon in the sense of head-canon. A person might really like an explanation but it'll never be actual canon unless it shows up in official material.

If someone predicts something that turns out to be canon they always get much acclaim. :)

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Thursday, May 16, 2013 12:21 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


If I remember right, according to Joss, the only reason the scene was deleted in OMR was for time reasons, everybody loved it. It's hysterical. I think the reference to it is in the commentary tracks somewhere.

The title, it seemed to me, obviously referred to Saffron. I took it also, as I said, as a reference to Our. Miss Brooks. Can't say that I know exactly why the writer would have done that

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Wednesday, July 31, 2013 11:39 AM

BUKI


Quote:

Originally posted by wr_orion:

On to Our Mrs. Reynolds. So since I already knew about the deception that was going on, I paid more attention to the details this time. All I can say is WOW! River giving her the evil eye in every scene in which she was visible in this episode. Amazing that I saw NONE of that the first time around. But lo and behold, there stands River in the background staring Saffron down the whole time. So damn cool.

BUKI's response - color fail
Been a fan since it aired...gave away box-sets, watched with friends to get them hooked and I have not caught her giving the Evil-eye; going to watch that one again...how did I miss that! Good Catch...

"If you can't do something right, do something smart."

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Thursday, July 17, 2014 6:21 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I may be failing recall, but I thought Mal haed made some mention to Simon that "they wouldn't be left" or similar, when Simon was worried that River might wander too far away, and Mal wanted her farther away.
I always felt that Mal was betraying HIS WORD when he left after they were captured, and he should have been obligated to at least come back to retrieve the bodies if they'd been killed during his absence. If his word isn't valid, how much of a man can he really be in the Verse? Hope I recalled that correctly.

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Thursday, July 17, 2014 9:33 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by wr_orion:
So I watched "Safe" and "Our Mrs. Reynolds" for the first time last night. I decided to start a new thread for my comments for a couple of reasons.



I do love these threads! They never do fail to inspire.

Quote:



First, if I'm not mistaken there is no Search function here so it would take quite a bit of time to page through old posts. If I'm wrong please let me know because there are many things I'd love to search for in the 10s of thousands of posts that are hidden here!

More importantly, I saw another discussion about "Our Mrs. Reynolds" and thought that would be safe to browse. Nope! It mentions there that Inara has some serious illness? Well wish I wouldn't have found that out before I was supposed to! Oh well, anyway....

My comment was actually related to "Safe". Now maybe I'm just getting sentimental in my old age, (yeah I am but anyway) is it strange that I got a little choked up when River started dancing? I really can't believe how powerful this series seems to be. The characters just seem so deep, much more than I would have imagined after only watching half a dozen episodes. Especially since there really hasn't been much history at all with the exception of River and Simon.



I don't understand it myself, but this series, the characters, really do seem to connect with some folks , while others some how completely miss the touching and powerful moments.

Quote:



Frankly I'm upset that I'm almost half way through already. I'd throw a tantrum if I thought it would do any good. ;-)

Personally I'd be all for an animated series voiced by the original actors. But that's a discussion best left to its own topic.



Just enjoy it. Fret not over what comes next. There IS the movie, of course.

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Wednesday, July 23, 2014 7:13 PM

HEAIMSTOMISBEHAVE

No matter who it is, you can't stop the signal. Not even with a sword.


Dang, if you watch two more again next time...well, you got some (more) amazing things coming, friend!

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Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:44 PM

THGRRI


I would like to see a few shows a year. That is hope.


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Sunday, August 3, 2014 1:42 AM

FEMMEFAN1946


You've learned that the story continues with comics right? Including the new Rebellion in the Leaves in the Wind' series and Book's backstory?

About Our Mrs. Reynolds, I understand that Joss Whedon spent some time in England as a young man. There is a Northern habit of calling people "our Joss' usually recorded as RJoss. For example Sir Terry Pratchett of the Discworld stories is often referred to as RTerry by fans.

I finally got Disc Two to play on my new MacBookPro. I was entranced by River's dance, improvised by Summer Glau. Much more graceful and happy than what is seen in most of the captures on YouTube.

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Saturday, March 28, 2015 6:39 PM

AQUA


I agree with Auraptor. The series has many deep themes and touching moments, which are resonant for some more than others. But it's too short. I think that it would be interesting to see something made in this universe even though it wouldn't be exactly the same thing - if there was something, it wouldn't be Mal and his crew but rather some kind of spinoff with a few of the character from the original series. The movie is totally epic though and I have to say I am glad that that happened even though I think the series is way too short.

Quote:

Originally posted by wr_orion:

My comment was actually related to "Safe". Now maybe I'm just getting sentimental in my old age, (yeah I am but anyway) is it strange that I got a little choked up when River started dancing? I really can't believe how powerful this series seems to be. The characters just seem so deep, much more than I would have imagined after only watching half a dozen episodes. Especially since there really hasn't been much history at all with the exception of River and Simon.






On recent rewatch noticed the word was mentioned a lot with Simon and River. So made a piece incorporating dance, Chinese influence etc. I always found them probably the most resonant characters, though there are different themes with the other characters that are also deep and inspiring I must say.

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