REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Still trying to pass the Unaffordable Health Care Bait N' Switch down our throats

POSTED BY: G
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 1, 2017 15:13
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Monday, July 24, 2017 11:28 AM

G

... fully loaded, safety off...


http://nyti.ms/2tDQZVe

"Will Senate Republicans try to destroy health care under cover of a constitutional crisis? That’s a serious question, based in part on what happened in the House earlier this year.

As you may remember, back in March attempts to repeal and replace the Affordable Care Act seemed dead after the Congressional Budget Office released a devastating assessment, concluding that the House Republican bill would lead to 23 million more uninsured Americans. Faced with intense media scrutiny and an outpouring of public opposition, House leaders pulled their bill, and the debate seemed over.

But then media attention moved on to presidential tweets and other outrages — and with the spotlight off, House leaders bullied and bribed enough holdouts to narrowly pass a bill after all.

Could something similar happen in the Senate? A few days ago the Senate’s equally awful version of repeal and replace — which the C.B.O. says would leave an extra 22 million people uninsured — seemed dead. And media attention has visibly shifted off the subject, focusing on juicier topics like the Russia-Trump story.

This shift in focus is understandable. After all, there is growing evidence that members of the Trump inner circle did indeed collude with Russia during the election; meanwhile, Trump’s statements and tweets strongly suggest that he’s willing both to abuse his pardon power and to fire Robert Mueller, provoking a constitutional crisis, rather than allow investigation into this scandal to proceed.

One particular concern is that the latest round of falsehoods about health care, combined with the defamation of the C.B.O., may be gaining some political traction.

At this point the more or less official G.O.P. line is that the budget office — whose director, by the way, was picked by the Republicans themselves — can’t be trusted. (This attack provoked an open letter of protest signed by every former C.B.O. director, Republicans and Democrats alike.) In particular, the claim is that its prediction of huge losses in coverage is outlandish, and that to the extent that fewer people would be covered, it would be due to their voluntary choices.

In reality, those C.B.O. predictions of coverage losses are totally reasonable, given the Senate bill’s drastic cuts to Medicaid — 26 percent by 2026, and even deeper in the next decade. You have to wonder how someone like Senator Shelley Moore Capito of West Virginia could even consider supporting this bill, when 34 percent of her nonelderly constituents are on Medicaid. The same goes for Jeff Flake of Arizona, where the corresponding number is 29 percent.

And on those claims that it’s O.K. if people drop coverage, because that would be their own choice: It’s crucial to realize that the Senate bill would degrade the quality of subsidized private insurance, leading to a huge rise in deductibles.

Current law provides enough in subsidies that an individual with an income of $26,500 can afford a plan covering 70 percent of medical expenses, which, the C.B.O. estimates, implies an $800 deductible. The Senate bill reduces that standard of coverage to 58 percent, which would raise the implied deductible to $13,000, making the insurance effectively useless. Would deciding not to buy that useless insurance really be a “choice”?

By the way, remember when Republicans like Paul Ryan used to denounce Obamacare because the insurance policies it offered had high deductibles? It’s hypocrisy all the way down.

In short, the Senate bill is every bit as cruel and grotesque as its critics say. But we need to keep reminding wavering senators and their constituents of that fact, lest they be snowed by a blizzard of lies."

http://nyti.ms/2tDQZVe

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Monday, July 24, 2017 1:04 PM

THGRRI

May the Good Lord take a liking to you... but not too soon!


Nothing will pass G.






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Monday, July 24, 2017 5:14 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Still trying to pass the Unaffordable Health Care Bait N' Switch down our throats


That was already passed. It was called the ACA.

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Tuesday, July 25, 2017 4:24 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


This bears close watching. According to NPR there's only one open holdout in the Senate (Susan Collins); Paul Ryan joined the herd after being assured that the Senate would do more to dismantle Obamacare.

If the Senate passes some sort of bill where the individual/employer mandate is struck, as well as money being withdrawn from Medicare, who are the winners and losers?

It seems to me it would be something of a wash for the insurances: they might lose the bulk of their healthy customers and be stuck with less-healthy ones. On the other hand, they will be able to raise rates and deductibles and probably go back to the nice comfy margins that they had before.

Interestingly, it seems to me that the health providers' ox is going to get gored to the same extent as the public: Much less money would be going to doctors, labs, hospitals, pharma etc. I'm not sure if the healthcare businesses collectively realize how much of their business would go down the drain, along with government money. It seems to me that they would be complaining long and loud about the GOP plan.

IF the Senate and House manage to pass some sort of nightmare "reform" bill, it will fail the "real life" test too ... along with votes for the GOP. Do the Dems have some sort of workable plan in mind? Or are they going to be spending the next "X" number of years bitching and complaining, only to bobble the issue when it gets tossed back at them?



-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Friday, July 28, 2017 9:11 AM

THGRRI

May the Good Lord take a liking to you... but not too soon!


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Nothing will pass G.




And, nothing did. No change to health care for the moment.






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Friday, July 28, 2017 9:21 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


SO I guess NPR, with all of its hyperventilation, was wrong.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Friday, July 28, 2017 3:49 PM

THGRRI

May the Good Lord take a liking to you... but not too soon!


Now that Trumpcare has failed, it’s time to drop all the lies

It’s fitting that President Trump reacted to the epic collapse of the GOP repeal-and-replace push by vowing to keep up his campaign to sabotage the Affordable Care Act. “Let Obamacare implode, then deal,” Trump tweeted, meaning the administration should continue undermining the law, to force Democrats to the table to … well, it’s not clear what he wants from them, but it is clear is that he will continue sabotaging the ACA out of sheer rage and spite.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/opinion-now-that-trumpcare-has-f
ailed-it%e2%80%99s-time-to-drop-all-the-lies/ar-AAoYp3n?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=BHEA000







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Friday, July 28, 2017 5:02 PM

G

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SO I guess NPR, with all of its hyperventilation, was wrong.



That's your takeaway from 16 to 32 million people not losing their health insurance? For elderly not having to be thrown off of medicaid to now have to pay for their senior care facility and/or have their relatives decide to pay OR NOT PAY for their care? Or for people with cancer/pre-existing conditions to no longer get their treatment? Don't you have ANY relative that needs health care? Are you the biggest hypocrite ever??? What happened in your life to make you such a heartless, wizened old cow?

==============================

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Friday, July 28, 2017 6:22 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Allowing something to fail on its own is not sabotaging.

As I stated in the other thread, however, I am not in support of this action as it's the working class who has to pay for it until it does.

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Friday, July 28, 2017 11:24 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


Quote:

SO I guess NPR, with all of its hyperventilation, was wrong. - SIGNY

That's your takeaway from 16 to 32 million people not losing their health insurance? For elderly not having to be thrown off of medicaid to now have to pay for their senior care facility and/or have their relatives decide to pay OR NOT PAY for their care? Or for people with cancer/pre-existing conditions to no longer get their treatment? Don't you have ANY relative that needs health care? Are you the biggest hypocrite ever??? What happened in your life to make you such a heartless, wizened old cow? - GSTRING

What happened in YOUR life to make you such a fucking liar?

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Saturday, July 29, 2017 8:38 AM

G

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

SO I guess NPR, with all of its hyperventilation, was wrong. - SIGNY

That's your takeaway from 16 to 32 million people not losing their health insurance? For elderly not having to be thrown off of medicaid to now have to pay for their senior care facility and/or have their relatives decide to pay OR NOT PAY for their care? Or for people with cancer/pre-existing conditions to no longer get their treatment? Don't you have ANY relative that needs health care? Are you the biggest hypocrite ever??? What happened in your life to make you such a heartless, wizened old cow? - GSTRING

What happened in YOUR life to make you such a fucking liar?




That was a great day for the US citizens in so many ways. Sad that gloating over NPR being wrong is your first response. Is that a lie?

==============================

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Saturday, July 29, 2017 11:47 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


Quote:

SO I guess NPR, with all of its hyperventilation, was wrong. - SIGNY

That's your takeaway from 16 to 32 million people not losing their health insurance? For elderly not having to be thrown off of medicaid to now have to pay for their senior care facility and/or have their relatives decide to pay OR NOT PAY for their care? Or for people with cancer/pre-existing conditions to no longer get their treatment? Don't you have ANY relative that needs health care? Are you the biggest hypocrite ever??? What happened in your life to make you such a heartless, wizened old cow? - GSTRING

What happened in YOUR life to make you such a fucking liar?- SIGNY

That was a great day for the US citizens in so many ways. Sad that gloating over NPR being wrong is your first response. Is that a lie?= GSTRING



I thought my view of the GOP's efforts to reform (or repeal) Obamacare was this ...

Quote:

IF the Senate and House manage to pass some sort of nightmare "reform" bill, it will fail the "real life" test too ...


Those in the GOP who aren't simply bought and paid for by corporations are ideologically incapable of representing the average American. To them, business IS America, and once business is satisfied benefits will flow. They don 't realize that corporate/ banking oligopolies have only one goal: to suck the juices out of the rest of the economy, government, and other businesses until there is nothing left but a dry husk.

So, THANKFULLY, NPR was wrong.


-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Sunday, July 30, 2017 5:28 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Those in the GOP who aren't simply bought and paid for by corporations are ideologically incapable of representing the average American. To them, business IS America, and once business is satisfied benefits will flow. They don 't realize that corporate/ banking oligopolies have only one goal: to suck the juices out of the rest of the economy, government, and other businesses until there is nothing left but a dry husk.

A clear majority of Republican voters, 67 percent, want the GOP to continue to work to repeal and replace the health care law, compared to only 21 percent who want party leaders to move on.

49 out of 52 Republican Senators (that’s 94%) wanted exactly the same as the majority of Republican voters. Take note that GOP Senators only work for GOP voters. Those Senators have no reason to please non-voters and non-Republicans.

The 6% of Republican Senators that did not obey the majority of Republican voters — John McCain, Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski — needs explanation, but it won’t be Signym’s conspiracy theory.

If another vote was held, one of the three — John McCain, Susan Collins or Lisa Murkowski — might change their vote, which is enough to pass it with Mike Pence’s tie-breaking vote. Then the Republican Senators are aligned with the majority of Republican voters. There is no room for Signym’s conspiracy theory based explanations.

A good place to start for explanation of GOP Senator Murkowski’s vote is:
www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-pol-lisa-murkowski-20170729-story.html

A good place to start for explanation of GOP Senator Collin’s vote is:
www.nationalreview.com/corner/449975/susan-collins-obamacare-vote-sugg
ests-maine-gubernatorial-candidacy


A good place to start for explanation of GOP Senator McCain’s vote is:
cancer ate his brain.
www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-washington-updates
-in-health-care-vote-mccain-draws-ire-1501258116-htmlstory.html

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Sunday, July 30, 2017 7:29 PM

6STRINGJOKER


I say just let Obamacare just keep going at this point. There is no fix for it and it will fail on its own.

Everybody is going to be talking about it again in two months when their premiums raise another 30%.

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Monday, July 31, 2017 1:36 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


SECOND, I just wanted to press the point that Max Baucus was the person most responsible for Obamacare:

Quote:

Baucus Healthcare Plan: Arrest Doctors, Nurses



Senate Finance Committee chairman Max Baucus, the insurance industry-friendly Democrat who is managing show hearings on healthcare reform, has come up with a novel way to express his commitment to care for the almost 50 million Americans who have no healthcare and roughly equal number who have inadequate care.

The senior senator from Montana is ordering the arrest of doctors and nurses.

Medical practitioners who have shown up at Baucus-chaired "roundtable discussions" to demand consideration of a real fix -- the single-payer, genuinely-public reform that assures all Americans will have health care while at the same time holding down costs -- are being taken into custody and removed from the hearing rooms.


https://www.thenation.com/article/baucus-healthcare-plan-arrest-doctor
s-nurses
/

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Monday, July 31, 2017 7:41 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SECOND, I just wanted to press the point that Max Baucus was the person most responsible for Obamacare:

Quote:

Baucus Healthcare Plan: Arrest Doctors, Nurses



Senate Finance Committee chairman Max Baucus, the insurance industry-friendly Democrat who is managing show hearings on healthcare reform, has come up with a novel way to express his commitment to care for the almost 50 million Americans who have no healthcare and roughly equal number who have inadequate care.

The senior senator from Montana is ordering the arrest of doctors and nurses.

Medical practitioners who have shown up at Baucus-chaired "roundtable discussions" to demand consideration of a real fix -- the single-payer, genuinely-public reform that assures all Americans will have health care while at the same time holding down costs -- are being taken into custody and removed from the hearing rooms.


https://www.thenation.com/article/baucus-healthcare-plan-arrest-doctor
s-nurses
/

Sen. Max Baucus, D-Montana, spent the month of October 2008 traveling around his state listening to what his constituents have to say about health care.

More interesting than what the people of Montana have to say is how Baucus responded. Refusing to tip his hand, Baucus said that it didn’t matter which proposal the [Presidential] candidates support, as he is withholding judgment on competing plans for now. He did say that “nothing should be off the table,” but he won’t support a single-payer system—universal health insurance where all citizens have coverage and get medical care as a matter of right. “We are Americans,” the senator said. “We’re different from Canada, we’re different from the United Kingdom.” No kidding! But how are Americans’ health problems different from those of citizens in other countries? A good opportunity for a follow-up question here next time Baucus pushes that line.

“We have to come up with a uniquely American solution, probably a combination of private and public coverage,” he said. That sounds like the insurance trade association, America’s Health Insurance Plans (AHIP), talking.

http://archives.cjr.org/campaign_desk/baucus_watch.php

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Monday, July 31, 2017 10:03 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


So, SECOND, than you for supporting my point about Max Baucus (D).

Just so you know how closely I followed the development of Obamacare ... I actually subscribed to the Missoulian and the Helena Independent (two of the top 10) because I wanted a better idea of what Montanans thought. It seemed to me that Baucus was not representing his constituency very well; the media that I looked at in general were far more supportive of single payer/ public option than Max.

Max, ALTHOUGH A DEMOCRAT, did a better job of representing the insurances, health care providers, and big pharma, than he did representing his own constituency.

*****

You will notice the pro-business bias of the GOP, relative to its constituency. Congressional Republicans are, percentage-wise, more business-friendly than their voters; just as Congressional Democrats are more business-friendly than their voters.

*****

Quote:

There is no room for Signym’s conspiracy theory based explanations.
Who's talking "conspiracy"?

Do I think ... do YOU think .... that lobbyists get together with Congresspeople in smoke-filled back rooms, and hammer out quid-pro-quo agreements? So much in contributions for certain votes??

How naive! It's far more proactive than that.

Big donors contribute to the candidates of both parties who are most friendly to their cause, and the party leaderships, seeing which way their coffers are filled, throw their weight behind their biggest money-getters.

Sanders says he's going to introduce single payer. Let's see if the Dems get behind him to support him or get behind him to stab him in the back.







-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Monday, July 31, 2017 1:38 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, SECOND, than you for supporting my point about Max Baucus (D).
. . .
Sanders says he's going to introduce single payer. Let's see if the Dems get behind him to support him or get behind him to stab him in the back.

You are still writing as if this is all a conspiracy by the rich against the people. It is far less dramatic.

Every once in awhile people make the point that much of what eventually became Obamacare came from, of all places, the Heritage Foundation – that is, the ACA is basically what conservatives used to advocate on health care. So I recently reread Stuart Butler’s 1989 Heritage Foundation lecture, “Assuring Affordable Health Care For All Americans” – hmm, where have I seen similar language? — to see how true that is; and the answer is, it really is pretty much true.
http://thf_media.s3.amazonaws.com/1989/pdf/hl218.pdf

First of all, this wasn’t just one guy at Heritage writing: Butler referred to his proposal as “the Heritage plan”, referring to a monograph that lays it out and does indeed present it as the institution’s policy, not just his opinion.
www.heritage.org/health-care-reform/report/national-health-system-amer
ica


Second, while the Heritage plan wasn’t exactly the same as ObamaRomneycare, it was pretty close. Like the ACA, it imposed a mandate requiring that everyone buy an acceptable level of coverage. Also like the ACA, it proposed subsidies to make sure that everyone could in fact afford that coverage. That’s two legs of the three-legged stool.

Where the plan differed was in the handling of pre-existing conditions. Butler opposed community rating, viewing it as an indirect tax on the healthy – but called instead for big subsidized high-risk pools to cover those private insurers would otherwise shun.

I have real doubts about whether this would have been workable. But two things about it are notable. (1) The Heritage plan would have required bigger, not smaller, government spending; that is, on-budget outlays would have been larger. (2) The piece of the ACA Heritage didn’t want was the part that’s actually most popular with the public.

Overall, what’s striking about the Heritage plan is that it’s not notably more conservative than what Obama actually implemented: a bit less regulation, a substantial amount of additional spending. If Obamacare is an extreme leftist measure, as so many Republicans claim, the Heritage Foundation in the 1980s was a leftist institution.
https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2017/07/30/heritage-on-health-1989/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, July 31, 2017 1:59 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


SECOND, in what way does your post negate the fact that the elite have different interests than everyone else, and that they impose it on politicians through the influence of money? I mean, all you're telling me is that the wealthy get to set up think tanks to represent their interests, and Obama, Baucus, and the rest of the Dems went along with it.

IN REALITY, the wealthy elite really DO have different interests than most people. And IN REALITY the wealthy really DO dominate our political decision-making, and it really doesn't matter whether a "Dem" or a "GOP" is in office; money knows no political affiliation.

Yanno, SECOND, you yourself are an example of that wealthy elite. in another thread on climate change, I challenged you to find carbon-sequestering, environment-sparing ways to run your ranches, and you declined with "I'm not trying to find a way to become a better Democrat" (or words to that effect). It would cramp your lifestyle.

So. How about becoming a better person? Is that beyond you?

Apparently, it is.

AND YET, despite being something of an asshole yourself, you despise so many "working class" Americans, and hold yourself to be somehow better than. Well, richer, maybe. But not better than, more ethical than, or even smarter than.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Monday, July 31, 2017 3:06 PM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:

Quote:

Still trying to pass the Unaffordable Health Care Bait N' Switch down our throats


That was already passed. It was called the ACA.


Premiums and deductibles have risen steadily since it began. 38 healthcare insurers have dropped out of the system. For Obama and Demotards, that's a big success.

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Monday, July 31, 2017 3:49 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Yanno, SECOND, you yourself are an example of that wealthy elite. in another thread on climate change, I challenged you to find carbon-sequestering, environment-sparing ways to run your ranches, and you declined with "I'm not trying to find a way to become a better Democrat" (or words to that effect). It would cramp your lifestyle.

So. How about becoming a better person? Is that beyond you?

Apparently, it is.

Signym, were I the kind of person who would be changed from reading Reasons And Persons by Derek Parfit on ethical behavior I would take your challenge to be a better person. I'm not that person. I make the same choices Clare makes in case 1 and 2 from the book's case studies:

Case One. Clare could either give her child some benefit, or give much greater benefits to some unfortunate stranger. Because she loves her child, she benefits him rather than the stranger.

Case Two. Clare could either save her child’s life, or save the lives of many strangers. Because she loves her child, she saves him, and the strangers all die.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, July 31, 2017 4:09 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:

Quote:

Still trying to pass the Unaffordable Health Care Bait N' Switch down our throats


That was already passed. It was called the ACA.


Premiums and deductibles have risen steadily since it began. 38 healthcare insurers have dropped out of the system. For Obama and Demotards, that's a big success.



Yeah... The dumbfuck knuckleheads seem to forget that when they come around and say that Obamacare was a "roaring success".

They'll get another reminder sometime in late October.

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Monday, July 31, 2017 4:12 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Yanno, SECOND, you yourself are an example of that wealthy elite. in another thread on climate change, I challenged you to find carbon-sequestering, environment-sparing ways to run your ranches, and you declined with "I'm not trying to find a way to become a better Democrat" (or words to that effect). It would cramp your lifestyle.

So. How about becoming a better person? Is that beyond you?

Apparently, it is.

Signym, were I the kind of person who would be changed from reading Reasons And Persons by Derek Parfit on ethical behavior I would take your challenge to be a better person. I'm not that person. I make the same choices Clare makes in case 1 and 2 from the book's case studies:

Case One. Clare could either give her child some benefit, or give much greater benefits to some unfortunate stranger. Because she loves her child, she benefits him rather than the stranger.

Case Two. Clare could either save her child’s life, or save the lives of many strangers. Because she loves her child, she saves him, and the strangers all die.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly




In other words Signy, all of this Republican bashing that Second does everyday is for the "feels".

He is very much in favor of all of the things that benefit him, as all of the wealthy I've ever known are. This is why many of them become Democrats. It's not to actually change anything. It's only to help alleviate some of the guilt.

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Monday, July 31, 2017 5:10 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


Quote:

Yanno, SECOND, you yourself are an example of that wealthy elite. in another thread on climate change, I challenged you to find carbon-sequestering, environment-sparing ways to run your ranches, and you declined with "I'm not trying to find a way to become a better Democrat" (or words to that effect). It would cramp your lifestyle.

So. How about becoming a better person? Is that beyond you?

Apparently, it is.- SIGNY

Signym, were I the kind of person who would be changed from reading Reasons And Persons by Derek Parfit on ethical behavior I would take your challenge to be a better person. I'm not that person. I make the same choices Clare makes in case 1 and 2 from the book's case studies:

Case One. Clare could either give her child some benefit, or give much greater benefits to some unfortunate stranger. Because she loves her child, she benefits him rather than the stranger.

Case Two. Clare could either save her child’s life, or save the lives of many strangers. Because she loves her child, she saves him, and the strangers all die.- SECOND

Who is this "child" that you love so much? Do you even have a child?

Maybe "child" is a codeword for "myself" or "my lifestyle", as in "Clare loves her lifestyle so much, she saves it, and the strangers all die".

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Monday, July 31, 2017 5:14 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


Quote:

In other words Signy, all of this Republican bashing that Second does everyday is for the "feels".

He is very much in favor of all of the things that benefit him, as all of the wealthy I've ever known are. This is why many of them become Democrats. It's not to actually change anything. It's only to help alleviate some of the guilt.

It's called "virtue signaling", or so I've been told.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Monday, July 31, 2017 5:30 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

In other words Signy, all of this Republican bashing that Second does everyday is for the "feels".

He is very much in favor of all of the things that benefit him, as all of the wealthy I've ever known are. This is why many of them become Democrats. It's not to actually change anything. It's only to help alleviate some of the guilt.

It's called "virtue signaling", or so I've been told.



Yep. That's just about 100% of the makeup of the Democratic party. The Virtue Signalers that have more money than they know what to do with, and the people who are completely dependent on the Government for sustenance.

I understand the ones caught in the middle not wanting to be Republican and going Independent. That's where I stand at least.

The people I don't get are the ones in the middle that support Democrats. There is virtually no reason for that at all.

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Monday, July 31, 2017 7:15 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Yanno, SECOND, you yourself are an example of that wealthy elite. in another thread on climate change, I challenged you to find carbon-sequestering, environment-sparing ways to run your ranches, and you declined with "I'm not trying to find a way to become a better Democrat" (or words to that effect). It would cramp your lifestyle.

So. How about becoming a better person? Is that beyond you?

Apparently, it is.- SIGNY

Signym, were I the kind of person who would be changed from reading Reasons And Persons by Derek Parfit on ethical behavior I would take your challenge to be a better person. I'm not that person. I make the same choices Clare makes in case 1 and 2 from the book's case studies:

Case One. Clare could either give her child some benefit, or give much greater benefits to some unfortunate stranger. Because she loves her child, she benefits him rather than the stranger.

Case Two. Clare could either save her child’s life, or save the lives of many strangers. Because she loves her child, she saves him, and the strangers all die.- SECOND

Who is this "child" that you love so much? Do you even have a child?

Maybe "child" is a codeword for "myself" or "my lifestyle", as in "Clare loves her lifestyle so much, she saves it, and the strangers all die".

The two case studies of (Clare + Child) versus Strangers is the entire reason why the GOP opposes various health care reforms. The GOP has sold the idea that Strangers getting health care is morally wrong if the GOP has to "suffer" by paying for the Strangers' health care. The GOP has gotten into trouble with some, but far from a majority, of GOP voters because some GOP voters are those Strangers receiving health care. The Stranger GOP voters want to keep it, but again, they don't want to pay, either, just like the GOP party. That is why they bitch about rising premiums. But the premiums are rising because Doctors, Hospitals, Insurance & Drug companies think it would be morally wrong that their incomes are not rising faster and faster.

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Monday, July 31, 2017 7:37 PM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:

The people I don't get are the ones in the middle that support Democrats. There is virtually no reason for that at all.


They support Democrats for a lot of reasons beyond healthcare. I don't agree with the vast majority of their reasons and nothing's gonna change them or change me. We believe what we believe. Case closed.

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Monday, July 31, 2017 7:40 PM

REAVERFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Quote:

Still trying to pass the Unaffordable Health Care Bait N' Switch down our throats


That was already passed. It was called the ACA.

Strange you should say that. It's been a great success, by all accounts but the reichwing fake media.

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Monday, July 31, 2017 7:55 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by reaverfan:
It's been a great success, by all accounts ...

Then you should list those accounts here.

Because death rates from treatable diseases have gone up. Medical bankruptcies have stayed the same. The cost of medical care is still skyrocketing. Insurers are dropping out of the market while premiums are going up, as well as co-pays, exclusions, and the number of medications not in the formulary.

I think trying to repeal and replace Obamacare was a huge mistake. It should have been left to gasp its last, tuberculous, breath, for all to see and understand.




Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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Monday, July 31, 2017 8:02 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by reaverfan:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Quote:

Still trying to pass the Unaffordable Health Care Bait N' Switch down our throats


That was already passed. It was called the ACA.

Strange you should say that. It's been a great success, by all accounts but the reichwing fake media.



You keep saying that but you offer no proof.

Just wait until the end of October.

What will that be then... 4 years of 30% increases on premiums while the deductible increases as well for the working class?

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Monday, July 31, 2017 10:07 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


Quote:

The two case studies of (Clare + Child) versus Strangers is the entire reason why the GOP opposes various health care reforms.
I like the way you claim to know the motivations of the entire GOP!

Do you have any evidence for this claim? Or is it mere speculation on your part?

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Monday, July 31, 2017 10:22 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

The two case studies of (Clare + Child) versus Strangers is the entire reason why the GOP opposes various health care reforms.
I like the way you claim to know the motivations of the entire GOP!

Do you have any evidence for this claim? Or is it mere speculation on your part?

One way you can identify politicians' sincere convictions is by looking at the things they do even when they know they're unpopular. There are few better examples than the half-century-long quest by Republicans to destroy Medicare.

Conservatives know the Democrats will attack them for it mercilessly, yet Republicans keep trying. Which is why it's clear that they just can't stand this program.

When Medicare was being debated in the early 1960s, one of its most prominent opponents was a certain future president, who recorded a spoken word album called Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine. In it, he said that if the bill were to pass, "We are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it once was like in America when men were free."

If you care about empirical truth, it's impossible to argue that Medicare is a failure, but Republicans do argue that, and it's a belief that springs from ideological faith, not facts. In a primary debate, Rand Paul was asked whether Reagan was right about Medicare, and he responded with the GOP's knee-jerk concern for the cost: "The question always is, what works better, the private marketplace or government? And what distributes goods better? It always seems to be the private marketplace does a better job. Is there an area for a safety net? Can you have Medicare or Social Security? Yes. But you ought to acknowledge the government doesn't do a very good job at it." Paul's ambivalence is obvious — he grudgingly acknowledges that you can have a "safety net," including Medicare, even as he says it's terrible. But if that's so, why not get rid of it entirely?

http://theweek.com/articles/585955/why-republicans-are-hellbent-destro
ying-medicare


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, July 31, 2017 11:15 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Cliff note version: Nothing about Clare.

Just another piece of pointless trolling by SECOND.






Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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Tuesday, August 1, 2017 6:01 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


Quote:

One way you can identify politicians' sincere convictions is by looking at the things they do even when they know they're unpopular. There are few better examples than the half-century-long quest by Republicans to destroy Medicare.
This contains two YUUGE logical flaws, SECOND.

Your first mistake is assuming that the ONLY reason a politician might hew to an unpopular stand is because of "conviction". However, there is still the possibility that the politician might be getting paid - directly or indirectly - to take an unpopular stand because it benefits the payer.

The second logical flaw is that EVEN IF you knew that this was a matter of "conviction" (and not money) you still haven't demonstrated WHICH motivation was behind the "conviction". It could be about "Clare", it could also be a sincere belief in limiting the role of government (and I can make a very convincing argument for that), it could be a sincere belief that market forces do best at meeting people's needs, or any number of other beliefs or feelings besides the one that you espouse.

I dunno SECOND. It seems to me that you place far too much faith in psychology, which leads to unproductive and unverifiable speculation.



-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Tuesday, August 1, 2017 12:06 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
This contains two YUUGE logical flaws, SECOND.

. . .

I dunno SECOND. It seems to me that you place far too much faith in psychology, which leads to unproductive and unverifiable speculation.

If you can explain the following without psychology and use only logic, congratulations!

For seven years, Republicans have attacked Obamacare with the same solemnity and frequency that they typically reserve for praising Ronald Reagan. They held symbolic votes against it. Then they held some more. They challenged it in court. Then they shut the government down over it. And, now that he's in office, Trump has even threatened to withhold some of the law's subsidies in a not-so-veiled attempt to make the whole thing “implode.”

Throughout it all, though, Republicans haven't been able to agree on what they want to do, only what they don't. Which, of course, is anything like Obamacare's alleged “big government takeover” of health care. The only problem with that is that Obamacare is not, in fact, a big government takeover. The opposite, actually. It's just about the most market-friendly way to cover poor and sick people. Indeed, the conservative Heritage Foundation supported something a lot like it back in 1989. As did former Republican presidential candidate Bob Dole in 1993. And former Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney in 2006. So by vilifying their 1989 plan as unconstitutional socialism, Republicans haven't left themselves a lot of leeway to come up with a new one.

Well, other than just going back to the way things were before Obamacare. That's what most Republicans really want. They think insurance companies should be able to once again discriminate against people with preexisting conditions and sell plans that are only useful as long as you don't need to use them.

It's no surprise that the GOP didn't wait to get the final budget scores for their bills, either. After all, how many times can you listen to experts tell you that your plan would lead to 22 million fewer people having health insurance?

But maybe the Republicans' best trick was convincing themselves that their plan wasn't really their plan. House Republicans, you see, passed a bill that Trump himself said was “mean” under the assumption that the Senate would make it better. At which point Senate Republicans tried to pass a bill they scribbled down at lunch that Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) called a “fraud” and a “disaster,” under the assumption that the conference committee would make it better. Which is to say that Republicans could only talk themselves into voting for their plans as long as they could talk themselves into believing that they still had a secret one up their sleeves. The conference committee would reveal the secret plan in due time!

Good luck Signym explaining Republicans' actions without using psychology.

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Tuesday, August 1, 2017 12:17 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


Quote:

If you can explain the following without psychology and use only logic, congratulations!


Here's a thought, SECOND: It's called Follow the money Try that for a change. It does a lot to explain how the wealthy think. Including you.


******

And now, for a more in-depth concept.

The reason why you can't use psychology to explain how groups behave is because groups don't act like the average of their members.

Let's look at businesses. Businesses exist in an environment of market share, profit, and competition. Those businesses which sequester the greatest profit, and can springboard that profit into market share, will flourish. The individual business owner can be the nicest person in the world. She can specify great products and pay fair wages and feel responsibility for the environment. But because that business is not making as much profit as the business which does oppositely, it will not expand as quickly and stands a chance of failing, or of being bought out. (If you look at Ben & Jerry's, Burt's Bees, and other successful businesses with a heart, you'll find out that they were eventually bought out by Unilever and Proctor & Gamble.) It doesn't matter what the business owner feels. The rules governing business aren't the rules governing individuals. You either climb on board, or get left behind.

Let's take a more benign example. 220,000 individual doctors follow their individual interests. But 220,000 doctors, gathered together in a group (let's call it the "AMA"), start to follow a different path than the average of those interests. Among other things, 220,000 doctors need some sort of internal structure. Leaders and committees and subcommittees emerge. The organization needs money, so dues are collected. The organization can influence other organizations - such as universities - and create a certification for education. It can limit the number of enrollees in the medical professional programs. It can influence politicians. The group of 220,000 doctors can do more, and differently, than the group of 220,individual doctors.

A biological example: The cells of a human body don't behave like the "average" human cell. If that were the case, "we" would be just blobs of free-floating cells, not human. Different kinds of cells do different things; internal transportation, chemical processing, environment-detection and memorized response, etc.

Once you have large groups of things, HOW they behave depends very much on the rules which govern their internal interactions and external reactions. Looking at individual units only generates so much insight. At some point, you have to look at more "meta" information.


--------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Tuesday, August 1, 2017 12:58 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

If you can explain the following without psychology and use only logic, congratulations!


Here's a thought, SECOND. (You know... "thinking?"?? I know you're unfamiliar with the process, but surely you have heard of it before?)

It's called Follow the money

Try that for a change. It does a lot to explain how the wealthy think. Including you.

"Follow the money" is a catchphrase popularized by the 1976 movie All The President's Men. If you and me were writing a screenplay, your suggestion would be nice and derivative. It's less than useless to explain why the average, not rich, GOP voter wants to see the end of Obamacare. Why have they fallen into line behind that project? Why did GOP voters approve of Sen. Ted Cruz's shutdown of the government back in 2013? The actor who played Jayne wanted Cruz for Prez. Jayne since deleted the tweets after Trump was nominated. Jayne's support of Cruz was all centered around the importance of killing that freedom destroying abomination called Obamacare. That's solely about Jayne's fucked up psychology. It is not about following the money.
www.newsweek.com/ted-cruz-2013-government-shutdown-obamacare-455750

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, August 1, 2017 1:21 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


SECOND, I added a lot of explanation to my previous post and remove the gratuitous insult, for which I apologize. Please reread it.

Quote:

It's less than useless to explain why the average, not rich, GOP voter wants to see the end of Obamacare.
It doesn't matter WHAT the "average voter" thinks because the average voter is NOT determining what happens. YOU REALLY SHOULD AT LEAST READ THE ABSTRACT OF THIS PAPER. I've posted this link a half-dozen times already. What it says is that, in over 1900 tested cases of decision-making, when the average voter deviated from the wealthy elite, the wealthy elite got their way.

https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/files/gilens
_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf


Americans have polled at somewhere between 55-70% in favor of either single=payer, or public option. Has that ever come about? NO??

So who gives a fuck what the average voter thinks, really? The average voter is not in control of our policy-making.

Our policies are made by an elite who THINK DIFFERENTLY and have DIFFERENT INTERESTS than the average American. They think like a business, in terms of profit and loss and market share. They don't respect public opinion, or the public, or our political processes; They are used to manipulating public opinion through advertising and they use their leverage to manipulate our political process towards a desired end. They have either been selected or trained into a form of sociopathy, and that's how they behave because those are the rules of the game: profit, competition, market share. You either get on board or you get left behind. Selection will eliminate those who don't follow the rules, so it doesn't really matter how nice individual business owners might want be.

Wake up and smell the coffee, SECOND. It's easy to blame the victim, but that's what you're doing. And if you're going to castigate people for being so stupid as to counter their own interests, then maybe you should educate yourself first about how our political economic system REALLY works.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Tuesday, August 1, 2017 2:13 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Wake up and smell the coffee, SECOND. It's easy to blame the victim, but that's what you're doing. And if you're going to castigate people for being so stupid as to counter their own interests, then maybe you should educate yourself first.

I downloaded that paper, gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf back on April 17, 2016.

Very lovely, but it doesn’t cover a case where the GOP tried to kill Obamacare and missed by only one vote from actually doing it. The elite opinion was to keep Obamacare alive. I’m counting all elite, not just elite Republicans. Your paper was right! The elite once again got their way. Obamacare still lives! But your paper was wrong if you look only at what GOP Congressmen did for GOP voters.

The GOP voters’ opinion was to kill Obamacare. And it almost happened. Missed by 1 vote! If McCain hadn’t protected his legacy of being a "maverick" senator before death by brain cancer, he would follow the GOP leadership.

What is the psychological reason for the GOP Congressmen almost unanimously voting to kill Obamacare?

The portion of Congress made up of the GOP is not following The Will of The People (330,000,000 People in the USA).

It is not following The Will of The Voters (Only 40% of The People vote)

It is following The Will of The GOP Voters (Only 20% of The People)

Actually the GOP part of Congress is slavishly (somewhere close to 100% of the GOP Congressmen) following the 67% of GOP voters who want to see Obamacare die a horrible death by cancer.

What is wrong with the psychology of GOP voters that they want Obamacare dead and buried? No one paid them to make that their opinion. Your paper about Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizen does not explain what almost happened (missed by 1 vote) to Obamacare.
http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/341604-poll-republican-voters-wan
t-gop-to-keep-working-to-repeal-replace-obamacare

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Tuesday, August 1, 2017 2:25 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


Well, SECOND, you have to take into account that - just as there are different groups of average Americans, there are different groups of "elite". They're not all just one big blob of similarly-interested ultra-wealthy; just as we aren't all one big blob of protoplasm.

The biggest and clearest distinctions that I can point to are between

1) Nationalists versus globalists
2) Financiers versus manufacturers versus commodities producers
3) Military-industrial -security complex, which depends entirely on government money versus any other entity dependent on government money

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Tuesday, August 1, 2017 3:13 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
What is wrong with the psychology of GOP voters that they want Obamacare dead and buried? No one paid them to make that their opinion.



WTF? Are you blind or just stupid.

Ask me again in November when PREMIUMS INCREASE BY 30% AGAIN!

You can afford this increase. You don't even notice it. You are the minority.



Nobody might have paid people to have an opinion on that, but when you don't have much money to begin with and you're being squeezed like that with no sign of it letting up in the future you're sure as fuck going to have one.

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Harvey Weinstein accused of sexual harassment, vows to fight NRA, Trump ?
Wed, October 18, 2017 16:13 - 46 posts
Acutal Russian collusion : FBI found evidence of bribes , kickbacks well before Obama admin green lit UraniumOne deal
Wed, October 18, 2017 16:11 - 5 posts
No man is an island, and so on
Wed, October 18, 2017 09:08 - 4 posts
Shout out to Second - hope you are doing well
Wed, October 18, 2017 07:25 - 150 posts
Draining The Swamp
Wed, October 18, 2017 06:51 - 49 posts
Another series of Mass Shootings... at Las Vegas... 40 + People Dead?
Wed, October 18, 2017 05:51 - 113 posts
Trump's Swamp Thing
Wed, October 18, 2017 02:04 - 4 posts

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