Religions/Beliefs of Browncoats

POSTED BY: EngineAngel
UPDATED: Wednesday, September 10, 2025 01:24
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ENGINEANGEL

Thursday, August 17, 2006 4:52 PM (P)

Ok well, I've been seeing several threads about how many Browncoats are Christian and the such. I'm wondering what other Browncoats believe. You know, how many number in other beliefs and what beliefs those are (Taoism, Buddhism, Judaism, Atheism, Agnosticism, ect.) There is no agenda on this thread. I'm just curious.

So, I'm Jewish. At the moment, my household is more orthodox than conservative (no electronics or writing or anything on Shabbat, eating kosher, ect.), but I myself am probably going to become more conservative when I move out.

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Thursday, August 17, 2006 4:56 PM (P)

Born again Pagan

I tend to describe myself as a New Age Hippie. A lot of people don't like the "new age" tag, but for me it fits.

More animations available at http://desktophippie.googlepages.com

PHOENIXROSE

Thursday, August 17, 2006 4:59 PM (P)

Pagan Buddhist, with Wiccan, Druid, Shaman, and Egyptian leanings.
It's complicated to some, and doesn't work in an organized setting, but it works very well for me
...And I'm one who doesn't like the term "new age" because so much of it is so very, very old. But I love my Hippie

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. - Gautama Siddharta

WHITEFALL

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:00 PM (P)

I'm athiest. I respect and kinda envy how people get that comfort out of religion, but i just cant wrap my brain around it.

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon

YINYANG

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:02 PM (P)

My cup o' tea is existential atheistism - yeah, I have fun with it.

---

Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!

COZEN

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:03 PM (P)

The most significant portion of my respect for those of the Jewish faith is that they do not actively seek to convert others to their system of belief. That speaks to me of respect, and I admire respectful behaviour.

A (perhaps) misplaced "amen", to you and yours. May you be well.

***
Was Malcolm Reynolds circumcised, as a matter of health or routine?

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:06 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by cozen:
Was Malcolm Reynolds circumcised, as a matter of health or routine?

I'LL CHECK!!! I'LL CHECK!!! More than happy to examine him and find out!

More animations available at http://desktophippie.googlepages.com

PAGANPAUL

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:08 PM (P)

Check my screen name.

* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - *

COZEN

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:09 PM (P)

I'm sorry, D'H, but, um, would you really care either way?

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:11 PM (P)

Care? Heck no! I just want to look at his... look at him is all.

More animations available at http://desktophippie.googlepages.com

FREDGIBLET

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:13 PM (P)

Strong Agnostic-Apatheist

Basically while I do not believe in a god I admit the possibility that there is one, but I don't care anyway.

A little more in depth, I believe that all of our religions are wrong because they are made by people trying to explain natural phenomena. This does not mean that there is no god, but rather that the gods that we have created are false. I have not seen enough evidence of divine influence to make me believe in a god, so I choose to not believe. I believe that if there is a god, we lack the mental capacity to comprehend its form, desires, or influence, so I have no intention of trying. I intend to live my life by my rules, and hope that if there is a god it cares as little about people as I suspect, so it doesn't choose to punish me for ignoring it (which if I am right it won't care about anyway).

/ramble

COZEN

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:14 PM (P)

Just look, and not... touch?

***
Poor Malcolm!

NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:16 PM (P)

Thanks for the thread. It helps for those of us who don't really fit in a specific rhealm of religiosity.
There is no real name for religion to our people. It was so intertwined with the lives of the people that it was never named. Hanen't even researched a label for it. Lets see. It is monotheologic, in tune with nature, has good and evil, various rituals, prayer, and meditation.
Not really looking for a label. Just like living and dying. It just is.

WINDIE

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:20 PM (P)

I see this thread has gone the right way, nothing like "worshipping" the human body.

I am interested in PR's choice of beliefs, seems a mighty interesting combination

"Pagan Buddhist, with Wiccan, Druid, Shaman, and Egyptian leanings."

Will have to do me a little more reading I think

Why have they taken the sky from ME

CAUSAL

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:20 PM (P)

My question for the atheists in the bunch: are you strict philosophical atheists (which holds that there is no valid argument proving the existence of God) or dogmatic atheists (believing that no entity "God" exists? Just found out there was a difference, so I'm curious.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:24 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by cozen:
Just look, and not... touch?

***
Poor Malcolm!

Oh yes, touching is good too

Of course this does all depend on me having his permission to even look in the first place. He seems friendly enough when fans want a photo of him, but this could be a bit much...

More animations available at http://desktophippie.googlepages.com

YINYANG

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:26 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
My question for the atheists in the bunch: are you strict philosophical atheists (which holds that there is no valid argument proving the existence of God) or dogmatic atheists (believing that no entity "God" exists? Just found out there was a difference, so I'm curious.

Both.

---

Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!

COZEN

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:27 PM (P)

Just to be fair, I'm one of those that understands "God" is a creation of m/woman, likely man, eh? However, I'm not quite so arrogant as to believe I may not be mistaken. It's just that certain horrid circumstances in my life haven't left me predisposed to accepting blind faith.

To those who believe: I say, peace be with you. I've no argument with any of you.

LOSTDOG

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:28 PM (P)

Okay, I definitely think that religion and politics are the touchiest of all subjects. But it's okay because we are all Browncoats here. I can't say that I follow any particular religion. I believe that there is definitely something bigger out there than all of us, but what, I don't know(Maybe, Firefly). That is probably the biggest question yet to be answered. I am not saying religion is bad. It is good for people to believe in something and to have faith. I just try to keep an open mind and always be willing to learn more about this subject in any capacity. For me, keeping it simple works, treat people how I would want to be treated and go about my business. All of this is just my opinion and I am not as educated as I would like to be on this subject. But there is one other thing I would like to add "....There's no place I can be since I found Serenity You can't take the sky from me!!!!!"

FREDGIBLET

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:28 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
My question for the atheists in the bunch: are you strict philosophical atheists (which holds that there is no valid argument proving the existence of God) or dogmatic atheists (believing that no entity "God" exists? Just found out there was a difference, so I'm curious.

generally speaking...yes.

PHOENIXROSE

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:28 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by windie:
nothing like "worshipping" the human body.

I think it's a temple, does that count?
Not sure which of my belief structures that came from. But I do, I think the best temple is ourselves. Take care of yourself and be mindful and worship with your body and through your body in every way.
Maybe that's Buddhist, with a dash of Wicca. Both kind of say the body is sacred and powerful.
Also, the best faith is not blind. You have to take control of it and yourself. Check my sig quote; there's lots like that.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. - Gautama Siddharta

PHOENIXROSE

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:31 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by lostdog:
I believe that there is definitely something bigger out there than all of us, but what, I don't know

You probably weren't looking for a label, but that is generally referred to as "Agnostic"

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. - Gautama Siddharta

TRISTAN

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:32 PM (P)

Ok, this is going well so far.
I am an atheist, but I have been called a closet-pagan. Probably close in my beliefs to NVG...
Used to be a billboard atheist until I discovered tolerance. Weird to hear an atheist say that, eh? I am tolerant of all religions, so long as no one tries to tell me I'm going to hell or try to "put me on the path of righteousness". There are a lot of those, as I live in the buckle of the bible belt. I have no preference for the religiosity of those I deal with, and actually am happy that they have faith and believe what they do. To answer Causal, I do not believe that there is an entity/ies called "god" in the universe. I believe god was created by Man in his own image to serve his need for something greater than himself. I do believe that most Christians and other people of faith surpass this base definition, and truly find peace and love in a god they believe in. I do not belittle this faith, as I think it does take a strong person to do so...not saying those of us who are "godless" are weak, just approaching things from a different angle. Faith in something bigger and better helps those that believe; faith in oneself helps those that do not.
Hope that made sense and wasn't too out there a definition...

______________________________________

COZEN

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:32 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
Of course this does all depend on me having his permission to even look in the first place. He seems friendly enough....

Um... heh. See, there's this notion of you being naked and... articulate in his presence.

Also, there's Nathan's propensity to kilts, and the assumption of the lack of, well, anything 'tween the kilt and the answer to all our questions.

***
Just, y'know, sayin', is all....

COZEN

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:35 PM (P)

Tristan, your belief is so in synch with mine that I'm tempted to believe we're the same person, lol!

***
'Cept for that discrepancy in costumey talent. And, the fact we have different parents. Huh!

PHOENIXROSE

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:38 PM (P)

That was real pretty, Tristan, what you just said.

OK, this keeps getting more interesting. I believe in both myself and something more. I think that some... power, whether it even has conciousness or not, can come through me and help me do things, I just have to be open to it. To not be open and inviting would mean it couldn't get to me. I have changed lanes without thinking about it and avoided accidents, I have decided not to do something or do something else and avoided problems. This doesn't always work, I've done some things even when I knew better and haven't always had something else seem to take control of my car, but I think it's pretty powerful. I'm not sure if it just expands my own senses or what it does, but it's something I can believe in because listening to it (or to myself) has never led me wrong, it's just the listening that's sometimes hard.
I hope that made sense to folk who aren't me.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. - Gautama Siddharta

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:38 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by cozen:
Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
Of course this does all depend on me having his permission to even look in the first place. He seems friendly enough....

Um... heh. See, there's this notion of you being naked and... articulate in his presence.

Also, there's Nathan's propensity to kilts, and the assumption of the lack of, well, anything 'tween the kilt and the answer to all our questions.

***
Just, y'know, sayin', is all....

*wanders off to a very happy place inside her head*

More animations available at http://desktophippie.googlepages.com

TRISTAN

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:40 PM (P)

Oh, no! Cozen, tell me we haven't fallen into the multiple account trap!

It took many years to reach my level of "belief", but I'm happy where I am. Still cautious enough not to bring up religion in everyday conversations, though...I somtimes lose friends when the discussions get heated. Live and let live is an easy but cliched way to describe it...

______________________________________

COZEN

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:56 PM (P)

Yeah, I am SO inclined to avoiding religious "discussions". Because they ever turn into arguments. Now, I admire passion, I really do, but there's times when passions trump respect, and I feel that in the case of religion, that passions trump sensibility, and tend to harming friendships. This is a path I would rather not follow. That is to say, you (anyone) believes in God, or not, well, cool. We can connect in so many other ways.

MAVOURNEEN

Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:57 PM (P)

I was going to write something about the Zen Christianity book I am reading...a blending of Taoism/Eastern Zen with more "traditional" Christian beliefs, but then DTH had to go and talk about Nathan in a kilt.

Mmmmmm....kilty goodness...

*blinks hard a few times*

"Have you ever been with a Warrior Woman?"

TRISTAN

Thursday, August 17, 2006 6:08 PM (P)

I agree. Unfortunately, it is seldom the case in reality. I love sitting down over coffee to discuss things like this with people of all types, but something someone says gets misconstrued, and the next thing you know there's a huge arguement about who's right and who's wrong...oy! Religion, or lack of, should not be the "whole" of a person...if that's all they are, then they are just spoiling for a fight in my opinion. Down here (AL), some people introduce themselves as "Hi, I'm so-and-so! I'm a -insert denomination here-. What church do you go to?" When the answer is "I don't", the immediate response is "Well, why not?!?"...just goes downhill from there. It's gotten better in the last few years...I just avoid people all together! Kidding. Just wish real life discussions on these subjects could be as civil as this one is turning out to be.

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YINYANG

Thursday, August 17, 2006 6:09 PM (P)

Yes, talking about religion is not good. Even though I don't live in the Bible Belt, I may as well - I've inadvertently surrounded myself with hardcore Christians.

Oh, wait, it wasn't inadvertent - I was one. Not to make that sound bad in general; but what I'm talking about really is bad. If there are people more fundamentalist than my friends, I would probably kill them right after we met.

The only religious people I can't stand are the ram-it-down-your-throat missionary types. Bleh!

---

Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!

INDIGOSTARBLASTER

Thursday, August 17, 2006 6:11 PM (P)

I'm both a philosophical atheist and a dogmatic atheist.

As I understand it, the proposition of God's existence is non-falsifiable; therefore there is no way to prove (through any argument or evidence) the existence or non-existence of God.

My starting position is that I do not already believe there is a Judeo/Christian/Muslim God, any more than I believe there is a pantheon headed by Zeus, and I am (as explained above) unlikely to hear an argument or be presented with evidence to change that belief.

That said, I find myself becoming mellower over the subject of religion as I get older, and I acknowledge that spirituality seems to be built into the human psyche, for no doubt evolutionarily satisfactory reasons. My spiritual desires are more or less satisfied by the mantra, "The world is a sacred place, and I am a part of the world", as explicated in Daniel Quinn's novel _The Story of B_.

Indigo S.

CAUSAL

Thursday, August 17, 2006 6:13 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by cozen:
Just to be fair, I'm one of those that understands "God" is a creation of m/woman, likely man, eh? However, I'm not quite so arrogant as to believe I may not be mistaken. It's just that certain horrid circumstances in my life haven't left me predisposed to accepting blind faith.

To those who believe: I say, peace be with you. I've no argument with any of you.

Nice, Cozen. Wish everybody were as enlightened as all that. The only thing that gripes me is that some people confuse tolerance with subjective relativism.

Now if we can just avoid the multiple-account-having folks, we can get on with our pleasant little conversation.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

CAUSAL

Thursday, August 17, 2006 6:23 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by IndigoStarblaster:
As I understand it, the proposition of God's existence is non-falsifiable; therefore there is no way to prove (through any argument or evidence) the existence or non-existence of God.

That's the quandary in a nutshell. The trouble seems to be that God is not available to empirical (that is, inductive) study--so the only way to make positive arguments for God's existence is via deductive arguments. Obviously, the problem with that is that even if you've got a logically valid argument (e.g. "If the moon is made of cheese, then God exists; the moon is made of cheese: therefore, God exists") there is much debate on the truth of the propositions of said arguments, so God can't be proven to all people beyond the shadow of a doubt. On the other hand, in order to disprove God, you would have to start with the premiss, "Given any X, X is not God", and there is just no way to consider and reject every possible X.

The philosophical atheists solve this problem (in a way) by claiming that there is no sound (that is, logically valid with true premises) argument for God's existence; therefore, there is no good reason for believing in God. This is an interesting position, because it does not deny that God exists--merely that there's no good reason to believe that he does.

The dogmatic atheist, on the other hand, believes that there is no such entity as God at all. But because, as you pointed out, "God exists" is non-falsifiable, they must hold this belief on faith without empirical evidence. So in a way, it would appear that to be dogmatically atheist requires faith after all.

Interesting, no?

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

INDIGOSTARBLASTER

Thursday, August 17, 2006 6:35 PM (P)

You put it very well, Causal. One minor quibble, though -- I think "faith" is somewhat stronger than the term "belief".

For myself, I wouldn't say I have "faith" that there is no God, because I think that would imply I'm going to stick to my proposition even in the face of contrary evidence, or that I think my position will be borne out by supporting evidence someday.

Rather, I would say that right now I "believe" there is no God. I'm not sitting on the fence about it, like an agnostic; I both think and feel there is no God. But it is perfectly possible that I might experience a stroke/revelation (take your pick) someday that I will experience as a spiritual event, and I don't think I have any faith such as to preclude the possibility that that experience will change my mind.

What kind of tickles me is the knowledge that, once changed, my mind would be set to a new position and it would be nigh on impossible to argue me back to my former position :)

Indigo S.

TRISTAN

Thursday, August 17, 2006 6:35 PM (P)

Causal, interesting atheist definitions. Not sure what you mean by faith in that context, though. I have faith in things, even without having a god to base the faith on; faith in myself and faith in others. Dogmatic atheist may not be the best way to describe those of us who do not believe there is a higher power, although it is kind of funny!

______________________________________

NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, August 17, 2006 6:50 PM (P)

In addition to what I said before:

The belief of my people is usually hard to grasp for alot of folks. The belief is that this world is seperated by the next by but a slim veil. Many of the rituals and meditation are used to contact not only the parts of ourselves that lay dormant, but the dead who dwell in the next world. Not to say that there is or isn't a god, but in the next world we are joined with the driving/creating force. In actuality, birth, life, and death are the same thing. Once the body has passed, the spirit is given one year to purify before moving on. Varied forms of rituals in many different tribes allow a spirit to do so. The only way to describe it is Einstien's theory that since everything is made up of energy, when people die they dissipate to infinity. He was not the first person to think this way.
It was also common amongst the people to believe that the good and bad energies must find somewhere to go. So when we die, those closest to us could be inflicted or enlightened by or thoughts and actions. Its all energy and has to go somewhere.

FREDGIBLET

Thursday, August 17, 2006 6:56 PM (P)

nvghostrider

Who are your people?

TRISTAN

Thursday, August 17, 2006 6:57 PM (P)

Thank you, NVG, for describing that. I like the way that sounds...very beautiful way of life and belief.

______________________________________

NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, August 17, 2006 7:00 PM (P)

Stillwater Paiute, Stillwater Nevada.

Like I said, the beliefs are hard to define as they are intertwined with everyday life.

And thanks Tristan.

EMBERS

Thursday, August 17, 2006 7:01 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:

Not really looking for a label. Just like living and dying. It just is.

I really respect this!

I believe in it all... I was raised as a Unitarian and I want to find what is universal in human beliefs,
I am not interested in anything that divides people or has a 'holier than thou' direction....

PAGANPAUL

Thursday, August 17, 2006 7:10 PM (P)

nvghostrider, in the Pagan/Wiccan religions we believe much the same thing. On Samhain (Halloween) we believe that the veil between the worlds is thinnest, and we often perform a rite called the Wild Hunt, in which a doorway is dedicated to those that have gone ahead before us, and they are invited to visit with us for a short time.

I could tell you all stories of things I've seen at this time, but most of you wouldn't believe them anyway.

* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - *

TRISTAN

Thursday, August 17, 2006 7:14 PM (P)

PaganPaul...does the hunt have anything to do with the white stag? I am a "student" of all things Celtic, but have not gotten too far into the religious side (apart from the Tuatha de Danann, but my interest is more on the history/mythology than the religion/sprituality).

______________________________________

NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, August 17, 2006 7:34 PM (P)

As Embers was saying, many beleifs shadow each other. But it seems that our beleifs are more along the lines of walk the right path everyday, communicate with them everyday, and give thanks everyday. Dierct Counsel is given from those before us only by their choice. Sacrifices of self (Sundance, vision quest) are a way to both give and recieve from those before us. The veil is not meant to be a barrier in a bad sense. But more of a tool to help those on both sides focus on the present.

JOSSISAGOD

Thursday, August 17, 2006 7:35 PM (P)

Taoist/Buddhist.

I was of the Episcopalian faith, but it wasn't a great fit for me.

JOSSIS(Most Definitely)AGOD

Self appointed Forsaken! Been on the list for a while now!
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature.
"Look at me, I'm STUPID!" The Doctor.

LITTLEALBATROSS29

Thursday, August 17, 2006 7:41 PM (P)

Being a Pagan myself, I try to respect everyones beliefs,as londg as no one's trying to convert me, or tell me I'm dammed.
It's amazing to me how many Pagans are heirarchal and end up being as bad & unaccepting as any other organized religion.Which is why I remain solitary.

Tristan ,have you trad The Mabinogian ? Lots of Celtic mythy goodness with many Pagan ideals thrown in.
Bryce
*****************************************

I swallowed a bug.

CAUSAL

Thursday, August 17, 2006 7:45 PM (P)

oops--see below

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, August 17, 2006 7:52 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:
Basically while I do not believe in a god I admit the possibility that there is one, but I don't care anyway.

Well said Fred. Wasn't that well said?

I'm an atheist, I don't agonize over it or reason it out on a daily basis or anything. It just seems obvious to me, and I enjoy what I experience of the `verse. What's beyond me, what I can't see or understand, I just don't worry about. That's worked just fine.

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

TRISTAN

Thursday, August 17, 2006 7:56 PM (P)

LA29, yes, I have gone through that as well as most of the Ulster Cycle and anything else I can get my hands on...but again, as an Historian, I focus on the history behind the stories. Guess I need to start looking beyond that, eh?

______________________________________

CAUSAL

Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:00 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Tristan:
Causal, interesting atheist definitions. Not sure what you mean by faith in that context, though. I have faith in things, even without having a god to base the faith on; faith in myself and faith in others. Dogmatic atheist may not be the best way to describe those of us who do not believe there is a higher power, although it is kind of funny!

Tristan, Indigo--

Good quibbles; let me address what I mean.

First off, faith. Faith is too much associated with religious--and especially Christian--sentiments. While that is one of the definitions of faith (2a1 and 2a2, http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/faith ), I like 2b1 best, because it is more broadly applicable: "firm belief in something for which there is no proof" (where proof is something like empirical evidence or a deductively sound argument). Now, if we grant that the premiss "There is a God" is non-falsifiable and non-provable, the corresponding "It is not the case that there is a God" is also non-falsifiable and non-provable (because if it were provable and proven, then the premiss "There is a God" would be effectively falsified). So if one believes that it is not the case that there is a God, they believe something for which there can be no proof. And if someone believes something for which there is no proof, then they have faith, according to the definition that I'm working with (just like the Theist who believes that it is the case that there is a God, in spite of a lack of proof). I'd like to avoid making "faith" be anything more mystical than it has to be--both the theist and the dogmatic atheist have faith, on these terms.

And on to the whole "dogmatic" thing. I use the term dogma according to defintion 1a: "something held as an established opinion" ( http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/dogma ); and dogmatic defintion 2 is simply "of or related to dogma". If one believes that it is not the case that there is the God, in spite of the lack of deductive or empirical truth--if one takes on faith that there is no God--then this has become something held as an established opinion. Again, the word dogma is very much attached to religious beliefs, but that is not the full scope of the word.

In any event, I use the terms "faith" and "dogma" to distinguish between mere philosophical atheism (which holds that there can be no proof of God) and the stronger position that holds that there is, in fact, no such entity.

Hope I did not offend.

(btw, thanks to all for the great conversation!)

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

AZHEA

Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:03 PM (P)

Born-again Pagan fits me quite well, if I may steal the phrase. I do have a loving appreciation for Christ's message, especially the part about how we are each 'the child of God' and responsible for our own salvation. I like that its up to me to live a good life, take care of those that need a little help and teach my children to do the same.

That's really what it's about, isn't it?

*************************************************

NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:05 PM (P)

Whats up M4P? Been a while.

I do see how religion does keep order in society through fear. I think alot of folks will agree with that. M4P brought up a good point. People shouldn't have to agonize over their beliefs. They should be able to walk throughout the day without fear of retribution from either their god or society. Maybe thats why religion doesn't work for some. But good teaching is applied rather than repeated. When people need constant reminders of what to do and what not to do, they get tired of hearing it.
But maybe what should be taught is morals. Seems alot of them are being lost.

NANITE1018

Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:05 PM (P)

I'm an atheist.

Actually, i guess you could say i am almost a holdover from the Enlightenment. Humanist, rationalist, think science and technology can solve our problems; etc. Love reason and rationality, science, technology, and human potential/intelligence. Very Enlightenment-y. Except unlike many from the Enlightenment i am full on atheist, not Deist.

TRISTAN

Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:06 PM (P)

Causal, no offense at all! Having been raised with the definition of "dogma" as church-related, I thought the concept of a dogmatic atheist as a bit odd! Faith to me does not just hold to religion...I like your choice of definition.
I, too, am enjoying this thread. Glad we can all do this without name-calling!

______________________________________

MSG

Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:09 PM (P)

I think almost all religions have the right idea and the wrong implementation. I believe in god, I believe he is good and loving, and I believe that with that love he can accept anyone any and any way of belief so long as the person held true to what they believed in ( practice what you preach)

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

LITTLEALBATROSS29

Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:13 PM (P)

Tristan,
The Mabinogian is actually full of pagan references.There is a rather good guide book called -Mabon and the Mysteries of Britain: An Exploration of the Mabinogion-By Caitlin Matthews.It sort of helps you read into it.
Oh and btw -love the browncoat,you make a shiny Mal.

Bryce
********************************

I swallowed a bug

NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:16 PM (P)

Science and math are as abstract as God and Allah. Yet we put so much stock in 2+2 and E=Mc2. But I guess abstract tools work better than sticks and stones, (I love primative tools). If people could use the abstract tools with everything you mentioned in mind, the world would be free of disease and war. Problem is that humans had squabbles and turned their tools to weapons, gods to demons, and faith to tyranny.
And I do think of many atheists as worthy of heaven just as I think of many Christians as worthy of hell. Not that I believe in atheist or Christian or heaven or hell. But if I did, that would be my way of thinking.
Alright, brain is tired. Talkin' out my ass so I'll shut up now. Y'all have been great. Much more civil than some of the RWED's. Now thats hell.

YINYANG

Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:19 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:
Y'all have been great. Much more civil than some of the RWED's. Now thats hell.

I agree wholeheartedly!

---

Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!

FREDGIBLET

Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:23 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:
Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:
Y'all have been great. Much more civil than some of the RWED's. Now thats hell.

I agree wholeheartedly!

I actually ended up taking a 2 month break from fff.net because of RWED. I spent a lot of time there and couldn't stand to hang around the people in there any longer.

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:23 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:

Alright, brain is tired. Talkin' out my ass so I'll shut up now.

That's one mighty eloquent ass you have there, NVG.

More animations available at http://desktophippie.googlepages.com

FIZZIX

Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:33 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Whitefall:
I'm athiest. I respect and kinda envy how people get that comfort out of religion, but i just cant wrap my brain around it.

Bwah, I've always wondered if there was anyone just like me!

/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\
May not be smart, and it may not please you, but you're definitely gonna see what I have to say.

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:35 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:
Science and math are as abstract as God and Allah. Yet we put so much stock in 2+2 and E=Mc2.

Hey NV! Good to talk to you too!

But I can't agree with you there. (read with Fargo accent

) 2+2 is a tool, part of a language that's been developed because it's useful. So it may be an abstraction, but it stands for something very real. Just like the word "dog".

E=mc2 may seem abstract, but it's just the same as "dog". It's a different language to describe something that can be directly observed. I'm not talking an observation that was made some millenia ago and must be believed just because someone said so. (cough Bible cough) Science is repeatable. A huge difference between science and religion is that scientific ideas are not accepted until they've been described, in detail, and shown that they can be repeated by anyone who wants to take the time to set up the experiment and do it again. Anyone, anywhere, anytime.

I must wax on because I'm having new thoughts (ouch!) Science is based on observations of nature, which can be controlled and repeated. Religion is, maybe??, based on the experiences of people, the emotional and spiritual insides of human beings, and no way is that repeatable. And no way should it be!

Whew, that was a lot. Is it 5:00 EST yet?

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

MSG

Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:37 PM (P)

wow we're all such a smart bunch. Excellent discussion:) Now if I could just get my students to discuss without thrwoing things:)

oh and EngineAngel...do you make latkes and kugel?? mmmm I love noodle kugel( not sure if I am spelling that correctly)especially the edges when they go all crunchy. ( I am such a food slut)

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

WINDIE

Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:37 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:
Basically while I do not believe in a god I admit the possibility that there is one, but I don't care anyway.

Well said Fred. Wasn't that well said?

I'm an atheist, I don't agonize over it or reason it out on a daily basis or anything. It just seems obvious to me, and I enjoy what I experience of the `verse. What's beyond me, what I can't see or understand, I just don't worry about. That's worked just fine.

------------------------------------------------------

I feel much the same although I have never considered myself an a true atheist. I am a firm believer in you reap what you so.

I like to help people, always have I just have trouble accepting help myself. Although I have never been afraid to ask a question if I do not know something, I strongly believe that ignorance is no excuse for failure, especially if there is someone with more knowledge of a subject than yourself.

I suppose this is a reason why I have no trouble with what other people believe, so long as they do not try and force it upon me. I am quite happy to engage them in a discussion, but as other people have said tend to find that you loose friends this way. But as a wise person I know has said to me, a true friend isn't going to leave you stranded just because they can't convince you to believe what they believe.

Why have they taken the sky from ME

NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:38 PM (P)

RWED, just like IRL, can break a person down. A good test for ones mettle.

And thanks for the ass comment DTH, seem to be gettin' that alot lately.

Okay, now I'm done.

YINYANG

Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:43 PM (P)

Quote:
I actually ended up taking a 2 month break from fff.net because of RWED. I spent a lot of time there and couldn't stand to hang around the people in there any longer.

It's understandable. I mostly lurk in RWED anyway - people take some things too personally. Of course, there are the others that purposely insult one another...

Oh! I need to stay on-topic today!

Personally, if there is an actual afterlife, and one of the gods that people worship is standing there questioning me, I'm just gonna tell whoever/whatever it is the truth: I chose non-belief because your followers were a)unconvincing, b)strange, or c)scary; and, the beliefs themselves were uncomfortable. So there.

That's exactly what I would do, tongue and everything. So sue me.

---

Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!

FREDGIBLET

Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:50 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:
It's understandable. I mostly lurk in RWED anyway - people take some things too personally. Of course, there are the others that purposely insult one another...

Yeah, I tried to stay out of the personal insult thing (though I'm perfectly willing to fight back on a personal insult).

Quote:
I chose non-belief because your followers were a)unconvincing, b)strange, or c)scary; and, the beliefs themselves were uncomfortable. So there.

ROFLMAO, strange and scary definitely cover a lot of the attemps that have been made to convince me.

MONKSDAD

Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:51 PM (P)

I believe in one thing, myself.. To me that is the only belief you need to get you by in life..... as far as a set religion i have none... I do believe there is something out there, something greater than us... what that is i dont know..

"And I think calling him that is an insult to the psychotic lowlife community."

NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:52 PM (P)

Praise Allah, I love a woman who can argue a good point!

Just like 2+2 and the theory of relativity, religion and dogma are also controllable, repeatable, and very useful tools. They are based on neccessity and usefulness of men.

Can't syop smiling.

That is my point. We can argue for eternity and end up running the same circle. How is science concrete if there is no one to observr it, Science has hinted that the earth will pretty much be destroyed again, and life may or may not reappear. With no one to observe or calculate, math and science are as useless as bone awls and stone axes.

But what you said about just being in the 'verse while you can holds the ultimate truth. We are here now, enjoy it. There is no time like the present? Actually, there is no time but the present.
Thanks for the sudden burst of energy M4P. Though tired, I feel very good now.

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:53 PM (P)

BTW, NV, I love the animation:

Quote:

It's kind of hypnotic.

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

AZHEA

Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:58 PM (P)

IMHO, science and religion describe the same phenomenon (spelling?); they just use differing vocabulary to describe the world.

And, everyone here has behaved admirably. I'm proud of us all!!

*************************************************

NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, August 17, 2006 9:04 PM (P)

Thanks. "Borrowed" from Photobucket.

Also, it is a bit funny no one mentioned the affirmation of a demon in the Christian Soundoff board.

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, August 17, 2006 9:04 PM (P)

Sadly, I see the church as lagging behind, and accepting the observations of science only when they absolutely can't deny it anymore. (Galileo anyone?)

And I don't see the church stating any kind of theorem that can be agreed upon be anyone, no matter their personal background or beliefs. Religion cannot be verified by observation of nature, science can.

Edit: sorry, don't mean to be hijacking with the science/religion argument. I just find it so interesting! But it's 5, so I'll stop now.

G'night all!

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

DONCOAT

Thursday, August 17, 2006 9:09 PM (P)

Born and raised a (LCA Lutheran) preacher's kid. However, never quite got the hang of it, and today have no religious faith.

Whether or not I accept even the possibility of a God or gods depends on the particular definition thereof.

The traditional idea of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenificent deity makes no sense to me. Too many contradictions there! But if you want to think of God as "the laws of Physics that allow the Universe to exist", well, that I have no problem with.

One of the defining moments in my life was reading Kurt Vonnegut's "Cat's Cradle", in which he describes a new religion: The Church of God the Utterly Indifferent. One of their prayers went something like this: Oh great Creator and Master of the Universe, what could a puny human like me ever say or do that would be of the slightest interest to You?

All that aside, I love my folks dearly and get along pretty well with most religious folk, with the same proviso about proselytizers as others have made in this thread.

Here's an amusin' tale. A friend of mine was drafted back in the 1960s. He was required to name his religion so that it could be placed on his dog tags for the convenience of the chaplains. Being an atheist, he answered "none". Nope, that wouldn't do. "Atheist," he tried. No ruttin' way. Nor "Agnostic". Seems the Army wasn't going to allow any of *those* in its foxholes.

Finally he tried "Humanist". That was accepted. He has those dog tags to this day.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

FREDGIBLET

Thursday, August 17, 2006 9:13 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:
Just like 2+2 and the theory of relativity, religion and dogma are also controllable, repeatable, and very useful tools. They are based on neccessity and usefulness of men.

Um, I have to disagree. I can go into a church and chow down on holy wafers, guzzle wine, say Hail Marys until I'm hoarse, and bathe in holy water for eternity and never have a religious experience. On the other hand, every time you put two big pieces of enriched uranium together, they're gonna explode, every time you drop a chunk of pure sodium into water it's gonna put on a show. Religion is, by its very nature, impossible to recreate. If I had a revelation, I can't tell someone exactly what I did and where I did it, and expect them to be able to have the same revelation. If I invent a new chemical, or oberve a new physical phenomena I can tell someone else where and how I made or observed it, and they will be able to do the same, provided that I know how I did it in the first place of course.

Quote:
That is my point. We can argue for eternity and end up running the same circle. How is science concrete if there is no one to observr it,

Um, people do observe it? The only things that science can't really observe are things like the creation of new elements in a supercollider, most of the tenets of science are easily confirmable by someone with a little bit of money.

Quote:
Science has hinted that the earth will pretty much be destroyed again, and life may or may not reappear. With no one to observe or calculate, math and science are as useless as bone awls and stone axes.

So one part of science is not observable and thus science as a whole is useless? Predictions should always be considered suspect, but most of science is not predictions, most of science is repeatable observable phenomena.

NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, August 17, 2006 9:14 PM (P)

When you return:
It depends on the religion you speak of.
I know many things can be told of many religions,

Oh to hell with it. You win.

Was just trying to state a case for the beliefs of my people and the answers found within nature.

And I guess I meant to say that science can be understood by the human brain only with abstract thought. But that gets back to whats real and what ain't.

Anyways, thanks again for shining your big spotlight brought to us thanks to science and technology. Glad to have you by.

May need to bring snacks and drinks next time.

MIMA

Thursday, August 17, 2006 9:15 PM (P)

I'm pagan, lean toward asatru. i really like the tone of this discussion.

See the thing with religion is that ultimately, it's a political tool to control people. it's a social-historical construct humanity can't get out of. i ain't met a group yet, pagan or christian, that didn't end up in a "us/them" discussion instead of "this is what resonates for me". organized religion is the root of all evil, and that goes for the athiests, pagans, anyone who thinks they got the answers and other people who think different are Not To Be Trusted.

if more people in the world were like "here's some basic philosophical questions that may or may not add meaning to your life, and here's a bunch of ways to reflect on these questions, now go and do your own cogitating... live well and prosper" religion could be a thing of beauty. but the herd mentality just can't do that. humanity is a social creature and they can't abide other packs that aren't part of their own.

except browncoats. who know enough not to meddle and let people be.

FREDGIBLET

Thursday, August 17, 2006 9:16 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
Here's an amusin' tale. A friend of mine was drafted back in the 1960s. He was required to name his religion so that it could be placed on his dog tags for the convenience of the chaplains. Being an atheist, he answered "none". Nope, that wouldn't do. "Atheist," he tried. No ruttin' way. Nor "Agnostic". Seems the Army wasn't going to allow any of *those* in its foxholes.

Finally he tried "Humanist". That was accepted. He has those dog tags to this day.

Actually I've heard of things like this, from what I have heard it really depends not on the Army, but rather the specific person that he was giving his information to. I have heard of people who were forced to put a religion on their dog tags, then later went to someone else to get new tags and got them with "Atheist" or "None".

NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, August 17, 2006 9:24 PM (P)

I think the point flew over your head. Thats okay, it hit the guy lurking in the bushes waitin' to steal your wallet.

My point is that when all is said and done. When the Earth is ready to purify its self of all the pollution we helped create or a big gorram rock collides with our mortal asses and there is nothing left but dust and wasted energy, no amount of science or religion will matter. It will all be over. We will not live forever. They may never find the cure for cancer. And Pepsi may never bring back Crystal Pepsi.

Kinda sucks too. I never got to taste Crystal Pepsi.
Guess theres something to have faith in.

DONCOAT

Thursday, August 17, 2006 9:35 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:
Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
Here's an amusin' tale. A friend of mine was drafted back in the 1960s. He was required to name his religion so that it could be placed on his dog tags for the convenience of the chaplains. Being an atheist, he answered "none". Nope, that wouldn't do. "Atheist," he tried. No ruttin' way. Nor "Agnostic". Seems the Army wasn't going to allow any of *those* in its foxholes.

Finally he tried "Humanist". That was accepted. He has those dog tags to this day.

Actually I've heard of things like this, from what I have heard it really depends not on the Army, but rather the specific person that he was giving his information to. I have heard of people who were forced to put a religion on their dog tags, then later went to someone else to get new tags and got them with "Atheist" or "None".

Yes, I conjure that's right. Depends on the particular induction center's staff.

Still a pretty funny story, though. Especially the way the folks at the right end of the spectrum rant about "secular humanism" these days. But back then people didn't associate the word with atheism. They probably thought it was an offshoot of the Congregationalists or Quakers or something!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

UBERGEEK

Thursday, August 17, 2006 10:38 PM (P)

I, simply don't care. There could be a god, and if there is, I wouldn't care anyways. (one thing I don't belive in is heaven/hell (except the special one ) regardless of the existence of a god or not)

Frankly, I don't Think it Matters. I mean, where here aren't we? Why do we have to have wars and arguments over how we got here?

“I refuse to prove I exist”, says God, “for proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing”. - The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams

ENGINEANGEL

Thursday, August 17, 2006 10:44 PM (P)

ok, I'm really sorry, but this is really really really long, had to catch up!!!!

Quote:
written by cozen:
The most significant portion of my respect for those of the Jewish faith is that they do not actively seek to convert others to their system of belief. That speaks to me of respect, and I admire respectful behaviour.

I admire that of my religion as well

Quote:
written by fredgiblet
A little more in depth, I believe that all of our religions are wrong because they are made by people trying to explain natural phenomena.

I understand what you’re saying but actually, Judaism was not created by man; it was created by God. That is, God wrote the Torah and basically created the religion. Of course, that depends on faith as well. Just saying. Of course, the Torah and Judaism in general is all about interpretation, so…technically, some of the different aspects of the religion could be false. But the basis is said to come straight from God. Again, totally based on faith.

Quote:
written by nvghostrider
Thanks for the thread. It helps for those of us who don't really fit in a specific rhealm of religiosity.
There is no real name for religion to our people. It was so intertwined with the lives of the people that it was never named. Hanen't even researched a label for it. Lets see. It is monotheologic, in tune with nature, has good and evil, various rituals, prayer, and meditation.Not really looking for a label. Just like living and dying. It just is.

Welcome, and (for both of your posts explaining your view and faith) that sounds interesting. I agree with Tristan, a very beautiful way of life and belief.

Quote:
written by Tristan:
I am tolerant of all religions, so long as no one tries to tell me I'm going to hell or try to "put me on the path of righteousness"

AMEN. Hehe

Quote:
written by Tristan
I love sitting down over coffee to discuss things like this with people of all types, but something someone says gets misconstrued, and the next thing you know there's a huge arguement about who's right and who's wrong...oy!

Oh I know exactly what you’re talking about. I love the sorts of discussion where you can explore different concepts without getting “I’m right” without any reason. However that happens, and often with people who won’t admit something may be even questionable. (You ain’t them people though. You all seem to enjoy the conversation just for finding out about different people’s perspectives, which is so shiny.)

Quote:
written by casual
The philosophical atheists solve this problem (in a way) by claiming that there is no sound (that is, logically valid with true premises) argument for God's existence; therefore, there is no good reason for believing in God. This is an interesting position, because it does not deny that God exists--merely that there's no good reason to believe that he does.

The dogmatic atheist, on the other hand, believes that there is no such entity as God at all. But because, as you pointed out, "God exists" is non-falsifiable, they must hold this belief on faith without empirical evidence. So in a way, it would appear that to be dogmatically atheist requires faith after all.

Interesting, no?

Oooo, very interesting. Nice.

Quote:
written by paganpaul
On Samhain (Halloween) we believe that the veil between the worlds is thinnest, and we often perform a rite called the Wild Hunt, in which a doorway is dedicated to those that have gone ahead before us, and they are invited to visit with us for a short time.

I could tell you all stories of things I've seen at this time, but most of you wouldn't believe them anyway.

That sounds cool and interesting. You might be surprised who might believe them. If you feel comfortable sharing the stories, I’d like to hear

Quote:
written by casual
First off, faith. Faith is too much associated with religious--and especially Christian--sentiments. While that is one of the definitions of faith (2a1 and 2a2, http://www.m-w.c

NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, August 17, 2006 10:48 PM (P)

I'll end my part of the discussion siding with Ubergeek. We are here. Lets just get on and love as much as possible. Plenty of other folks out there to fight over everything else.
Really liked this board. Much better than the personal attacks in RWED.
'Night. Love all of you. You all rock!

BIGDAMNTEXAN

Thursday, August 17, 2006 11:09 PM (P)

"while your treating yours like a temple,
I'm treating mine like an amusement park"

FREDGIBLET

Thursday, August 17, 2006 11:44 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by EngineAngel:
Quote:
written by fredgiblet
A little more in depth, I believe that all of our religions are wrong because they are made by people trying to explain natural phenomena.

I understand what you’re saying but actually, Judaism was not created by man; it was created by God. That is, God wrote the Torah and basically created the religion. Of course, that depends on faith as well. Just saying. Of course, the Torah and Judaism in general is all about interpretation, so…technically, some of the different aspects of the religion could be false. But the basis is said to come straight from God. Again, totally based on faith.

And I understand your position, but every religion claims more or less the same thing. What it comes down to is that you have to have faith that the first person with the Torah, Quran, Bhagavad Gita, etc. actually got it from God and didn't make it up themselves. I have never seen anything to make me believe that that is true.

MISBEHAVEN

Friday, August 18, 2006 12:04 AM (P)

When asked about my religious preference, I reply that, "I'm a devout Atheist." I include devout because I find it generally helps fend off the the follow-up question, "Don't you mean an Agnostic?" to which I always reply, "No I don't. I mean Atheist." This seems to trouble a lot of people, particularly my family and friends. Some people need to believe in a higher power, or they need the structure that the religions of the world provide. I'm just not one of them. Nevertheless, I respect their beliefs, and I only ask that they respect my lack of belief. Coexistence is essential.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

STINKINGROSE

Friday, August 18, 2006 1:00 AM (P)

I got to try Crystal Pepsi. You didn't miss much. It was kind of like Pepsi but without the cola flavor if that makes any sense.
Sort of like finding a familiar flower in an unusual color only to realize it has no scent.

Raised agnostic with heathen leanings. Turned into a rogue solitary pagan.
Exist, see the beauty and joy in life every day, take care of the world you live in, love others and yourself.
I got my ordination from the back of Rolling Stone and specialise in weddings and handfastings for people who are already married or do not want to be legally joined at that time. New York State has this thing about the Progressive Universal Life Church (based out of a PO box in Sacramento CA)..something about all preachers no congregation or the like.
The tough part about being pagan is there is no organized heirarchy for most of us, so you can't prove credentials because there *aren't* any. There's not too many colleges out there offering advanced degrees in Wicca, Shinto, or Shamanism.
We've got an interesting mix at work. Me, a Witch, a recent convert to Islam, an atheist (should that be capitalized?),a Jew, and several Protestant/Catholic types.
Most everyone is fairly non discussive on these matters. We tried to have a good conversation in comparative religion (or the lack thereof), but one of the Catholics decided to try to start a fight instead of absenting herself from the room.
We were joking with the Wiccan at lunch when the boss (also Catholic) came in and overheard part of it. She said that she'd been at the ER with her father and someone in the next bed had been telling the nurse that she was a practicing witch. The nurse tried to get her to put something else down, and the patient refused. Our boss said she couldn't believe it, practicing witch? "I mean, what is the world coming to?" was the next phrase out of her mouth.
I felt like saying something along the lines of "you mean when people can state their religious beliefs without fear?" How would she like it if another person's religion were forced on her when she wasn't feeling well?
You fill in that option in the hospital in case of needing last rites, or needing pastoral care. Or to know not to bother you for Mass on Sunday. If someone were to send a Christian spiritual leader in to tend to me I'd be irritated.
I'd probably be OK if a Bhuddist or the like came in, because I'm not as familiar with those rites and they resonate a little closer with my own views.
I can coexist with others as long as they are willing to allow me to do the same.
Treat others well and try not to hurt anyone is what most religion boils down to.
There are a few notable exceptions, I'm sure. I don't want to be part of them.

Every breath is reverence, every laugh worship.

QWERTYUIOPASD

Friday, August 18, 2006 1:36 AM (P)

I'll take the Flying Spaghetti Monster, thankee.

Edit: anyone know how to make a link? I tried [url= www.venganza.org]text[/url], then without the [/url], then with quotations around the address, with and without the [/url]. the bbcode here confuses me...

although it isn't really a real religion, it is a good organization with a platform, good intentions, and... a creed I supposed you could say. we have quite a list of 'suggestions, not commandments' or 'I really rather you didn'ts'. one of which is "Try not to buy too much useless crap"

I also go to a Unitarian Universalist church, and am still figuring out what works for me exactly. so far I've been apatheistic, but I'm looking into Auto-Theism (you are your own god)

___________________________________________________
"Do what you want to, but know what you should do"

Blarg!
I think Blarg means yes.... does blarg mean yes?
Blarg.
yes! I'm so good! unless blarg means no. I don't think it does... am i right?
Blarg.

WHITEFALL

Friday, August 18, 2006 2:12 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Fizzix:
Quote:
Originally posted by Whitefall:
I'm athiest. I respect and kinda envy how people get that comfort out of religion, but i just cant wrap my brain around it.

Bwah, I've always wondered if there was anyone just like me!

/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\
May not be smart, and it may not please you, but you're definitely gonna see what I have to say.

That's so cool! But actually, i'm gonna expand a little more, you may want to withdraw your support.

I believe that there is some really awesome thing looking out for humanity, and maybe it's God. Think about it, earth hasnt been hit with a major meteor in a very long time, for the most part the sun keeps doing its thing, and X form of X radiation from X celestial body isnt raining down on us and throwing the delicate balance that is the human body out of whack, thus killing everyone. And not to mention, we ever evolved in the first place. All that's pretty damn amazing. And lest we forget the aesthetic bits: the way the breeze feels, the way other people make us happy, the way we exist, and are capable of thinking of ourselves as sentient beings. It's mindboggling, to use the exact term. That, I think, is why we have religion.

Humans, by nature of being so incredibly lucky as to exist, turn to religion to explain it. And that's great, especially when religion tells them to go out and be nice to people. But for me, the details of any one doctrine just seem arbitrary.

So there I stand. And to come full circle, I'm an atheist, I respect, kinda envy, and really understand why people believe what they do, but I still can't believe it with them. Cause it seems to me that an awe-inspiringly low probility that all this crazy life stuff i mentioned above would happen, is more likely than an omnipresent, unprovable being. But it's a pretty close thing, in case ya hadnt noticed, life as we know it is pretty danged unlikely.

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon

MORDACIL

Friday, August 18, 2006 2:15 AM (P)

Christianity teaches that the body is the new temple, because God now dwells within, and It should eb taken care of and respected.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one, so I joined starfleet and was stationed at the SGC to fight the covenant, whos gate happens to be down, and through which I must cast the ring from whence it came. It was our last best hope for peace but it failed so millions of voices cried out and were suddenly silent but there was no spoon and also no fate but what we make for ourselves.
-I thought of that in the shower

ENGINEANGEL

Friday, August 18, 2006 2:24 AM (P)

Quote:
I mean, where here aren't we? Why do we have to have wars and arguments over how we got here?

IMO, the wars and arguments are because some people think so strongly in their beliefs that they feel the need to spread them and (in the case of wars only. i would hope the arguments wouldn't take people that far) take out anyone who does not abide by their own religion. I don't think that's right, but people are all different and this world seems to be based on a sole person's perception (at least to that person). If people have wars over it...there's no way i can stop that. The discussions however, like this one, IMO are to explore the different possibilities. Some think only by questioning things can we find out universal truths. Some think only by exploring all the possibilities, not to be right or wrong, but to simply look at things to expand knowledge and look at different views, can lead to a better existence. Some think it's just fun

MGORMAN

Friday, August 18, 2006 2:24 AM (P)

I'm a Catholic Unitarian Benedictine Buddhist(yea...one of those!), and kinda Browncoatish, too.

Mark Gorman
Meadville, PA

WHITEFALL

Friday, August 18, 2006 2:29 AM (P)

That reminds me of a funny story, is it true that a few years back, a ton of Star Wars fans in Britain found the minimum number of people required for a practicing religion, and got Jedi to become a religion in the next census? I think it's true, but maybe some of our brits know more about it than I... maybe we should all put Browncoat on our censuses....

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon

TRAVELER

Friday, August 18, 2006 3:03 AM (P)

I firmly beleave in God. I don't share the beliefs of the religions I have seen. And I have to admit that I don't know exactly what God has in store or how God works. Sometimes I think he puts choices along our path for us to deal with. I don't mean obstacles. Sometimes it can be a hard road and sometimes it could be wondrous. Just choices to help us see more clearly and help us to mature. In honesty it is why I like Jayne. I sat there watching him make bad and good choices. Sometimes he makes the right choice for all the wrong reasons. It seems that as the show progressed, Jayne matured from the choices he made.

Than there are times I think God just started the whole thing off like a finger painting. Just mixing all the paints together so ever imaginable color would exist.

The one thing I have dicovered after stumbling around is that we are loved and God does want the best for us. It doesn't always seem that way, but I have been taught to light a single candle instead of cursing the darkness. It took many years for me to come to this conclusion. I have heard that saying most of my life and thought it was rather foolish. Then one day I was faced with a choice. One of those choices that scared the hell out of me. But people helped through it. I didn't have to face it alone.

Just a footnote here. I don't beleave in hell. Only the one we create for ourselves.

Since I personally can't prove there is a God I don't beleave I have the right to push my faith on others.

I've read so many posts on this thread and I can't remember who said it, but math was brought up. Being in mechanical design I often use Pi for calculating the circumference of a circle. But we, in engineering, can not use the exact value. We only go to four decimal places. It is a known fact that you can not calculate the exact value of Pi. So if you can't find its true value, how can you prove it exists. So I see God as beyond logic. It is like describing color to a blind person. So how can I presuade anybody to beleave in God when I have no tools to prove of God's existance. It may be the universe itself is the grand total of existance. And there may not be anything beyond it. But that is okay, because it is what I'm doing today that matters, not if God exists or not. Treat people with respect. Do the best you can.

If someone reaches a hand out to help me I don't ask, "what are your beliefs?" Because by giving me their hand they are showing they care. And to me that is the most important thing to beleave in. To care for others.

I only wish God would have made me better at spelling and grammer. You would not beleave "pun" how long this took me to type. I spent more than half, actually a lot more than half, of my time checking my spelling. I can design hydraulic valves and construction equipement, but I can't spell a word over five letters long. And I'm sure you English teachers pull out your red pencils and correct all my bad grammer. But I hope I am clear enough to express my thoughts.

Finally, this is why I joined this site. Firefly has good values. The values I beleave in. So I knew a fansite would also share these values. You are the proof that I made the right choice.

Now you got me all mushy.
Traveler

UBERGEEK

Friday, August 18, 2006 3:15 AM (P)

@ENGINEANGEL

There is a big difference between arguments and decisions. Being in a conservative California town (odd combination eh?) discussions turn in to arguments very fast. I love these discussions like the one we are having here. But when the majority of the people around you are one religion, a discussion quickly turns into a pissing match (now im talking about when *I* have conversations with people in my town).

As for the wars... no one can stop that.

Only the dead have seen an end to war ~ George Santayana

ENGINEANGEL

Friday, August 18, 2006 4:07 AM (P)

Quote:
written by fredgiblet
And I understand your position, but every religion claims more or less the same thing. What it comes down to is that you have to have faith that the first person with the Torah, Quran, Bhagavad Gita, etc. actually got it from God and didn't make it up themselves. I have never seen anything to make me believe that that is true.

true, everything, to a certain level, is based on faith. There are things I could knit-pick about with some religions and how far some things go back, but you have the basic point and it always goes back to that; faith. The overall basis for all religions is faith, you have to believe in the concept underlying things or else none of it works or makes a difference. Good point. I am countered.

YINYANG

Friday, August 18, 2006 4:10 AM (P)

Quote:
Good point. I am countered.

Wow... so different from RWED...

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Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!

ROCKETJOCK

Friday, August 18, 2006 4:17 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by stinkingrose:
She said that she'd been at the ER with her father and someone in the next bed had been telling the nurse that she was a practicing witch. The nurse tried to get her to put something else down, and the patient refused. Our boss said she couldn't believe it, practicing witch? "I mean, what is the world coming to?" was the next phrase out of her mouth.

I felt like saying something along the lines of "you mean when people can state their religious beliefs without fear?"

Exactly.

A bit of dialogue from "The Simpsons":

Quote:
Rev. Lovejoy: You see Homer, you have friends of every faith, be they Christian, Jewish, or... Miscelaneous.

Apu: I am a Hindu. There are a hundred and seventy million of us in America alone.

Rev. Lovejoy: Isn't that super.

There are altogher too many people in America today who think of religions as "Christian/Jewish/Miscelaneous". (Which is to say, they haven't thought about it much at all.)

As for myself, I'm a born-again Herbangelist. We believe that the universe was created in late 1958 by a fat little kid named Herbie Popnecker. Any evidence of a universe before that point, including living memory, is either a test of faith by Herbie, or a deception by his ancient enemy Magical Moe, AKA "The Anti-Herbie". (We got the idea from the creationists, but they had it placed waaaaay too far back.)

On Judgement Day Herbie will appear on Hollywood Boulevard, sucking on a hard-to-get cinnamon lollypop, and pulling lightning from his nose to smite the unrightous.

"Praise Herbie and pass the buck!"

"Sugetor Sternum Natum!"

"Sanctum Molum!"

"You want I should bop you with this here lollypop?" -- Herbie Popnecker

YINYANG

Friday, August 18, 2006 4:19 AM (P)

That is a really neat religion, RJ.

::isn't sure if that was a joke, and doesn't want to offend anybody::

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Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!

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