Monsters.

POSTED BY: Wulfenstar
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 26, 2026 20:52
VIEWED: 14088
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RUE

Friday, October 30, 2009 6:32 PM (P)

Yep, more bullshit. Pathetic stuff, at that. Since you can't actually POST anything better.

So, here we have this guy - let's call him Wulfie for the sake of the argument - who claims that out of the armory he pretends to carry in his trunk - he could single-handely take out at least 15 people who are also armed, and not receive any return fire.

All who believe this fabrication - raise your hands.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

STORYMARK

Friday, October 30, 2009 6:33 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"How many firefights have YOU been in Wulf ? How many on your side ? How many on the other side ? How many shots did you fire ? How many 'enemies' did you hit ? How did those firefights turn out ?

For the record."

Meet me in person, and Ill tell you.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!

Implying a physical threat while once again bitching out on a simple question! Priceless, classic Wulfie!

Love it!

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

STORYMARK

Friday, October 30, 2009 6:35 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Yep, more bullshit. Pathetic stuff, at that. Since you can't actually POST anything better.

So, here we have this guy - let's call him Wulfie for the sake of the argument - who claims that out of the armory he pretends to carry in his trunk - he could single-handely take out at least 15 people who are also armed, and not receive any return fire.

All who believe this fabrication - raise your hands.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

Wouldn't you say that fits right in with my theory about Wulfie's hero fantasies?

I can understand to a degree - I use to have little hero-trippin' daydreams myself. Of course, I was in junior high at the time.... but some folks take longer to mature than others.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

SIGNYM

Friday, October 30, 2009 6:38 PM (P)

Hey Rue- Nobody believes this fabrication. Prolly even Wulf doesn't believe it. But his statement is an emotional one not a practical one, so I kind of let it pass, yanno?

WULFENSTAR

Friday, October 30, 2009 6:38 PM (P)

Um, Rue?

Want to post your name, address, SS# and account info on here?

Please. Post it for the public to see, and to use.

AGENTROUKA

Friday, October 30, 2009 6:39 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Meet me in person, and Ill tell you.

Unless you're now purposefully sabotaging your own thread, you're just being lazy here. You can do better than that.

You implied something about your experience with firefights, but when asked about it you put ridiculous conditions on any actual clarification. That's not fair and you don't get to make fun of people for calling you out.

WULFENSTAR

Friday, October 30, 2009 6:41 PM (P)

"You implied something about your experience with firefights, but when asked about it you put ridiculous conditions on any actual clarification. That's not fair and you don't get to make fun of people for calling you out."

No. Im simply taking the 5th.

RIVERLOVE

Friday, October 30, 2009 6:52 PM (P)

There's a Church's Chicken down the street from me with a sign advertising a fry cook opportunity. I've heard somewhere that is good preparation for getting into firefights.

STORYMARK

Friday, October 30, 2009 7:47 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

No. Im simply taking the 5th.

You are simply being a chickenshit, actually.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

STORYMARK

Friday, October 30, 2009 7:48 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Um, Rue?

Want to post your name, address, SS# and account info on here?

Please. Post it for the public to see, and to use.

Yet we all know that, even though you'll ask it of others, you do not have the courage to step up and do it yourself.

You're too cowardly to answer direct questions, no chance you'll even tell folks your name.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

SIGNYM

Friday, October 30, 2009 7:58 PM (P)

Guys, guys... you're ringing and baiting someone who prolly has PTSD. That approach is guaranteed to bring out the very worst. Like I said before: If you want someone to act human, you have to treat them humanely. Those of you who do not have a traumatic background, this might be a good time to step back and practice what you preach.

Those of you who do... well, I feel for you, too.

Hugs.

STORYMARK

Friday, October 30, 2009 8:02 PM (P)

If someone uses their trauma as an excuse to be a hateful violent tool, I've no issue with calling them on it.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

SIGNYM

Friday, October 30, 2009 8:07 PM (P)

Quote:
If someone uses their trauma as an excuse to be a hateful violent tool, I've no issue with calling them on it.

Trauma creates this behavior; it's not an "excuse".

WULFENSTAR

Friday, October 30, 2009 8:07 PM (P)

No, I won't tell you my name. Its unimportant.

However, I will tell you a little story. One of a few, but the first of many.

There was a kid, not more than 12. He was one of 4 white kids in an all black area.

To make a long story short, he was friends with the local group of underprivileged youth. They found it funny to name themselves after people with physical disabilities.

Another group, didn't like the group that he was hanging out with.

And, being a somewhat more noticeable target, decided to give our little protagonist a bad case of lead poisoning.

With the hope that afterward, they could collect his ears as a trophy.

The second group, unaware of physics, and the firing of a weapon from a car, missed.

As this kid got older, he learned how to build, and shoot a weapon in self-defense.

Many years, and many stupid fights and mistakes later, here he stands. Mostly deaf, with deep scars, and a bad attitude.

You want more info, sorry... Can't give that to you.

WULFENSTAR

Friday, October 30, 2009 8:11 PM (P)

Now, that we've all played the "you show me yours and I'll show you mine" game.

Can we please talk about how to prevent this tragedy from occurring agian?

PIZMOBEACH

Friday, October 30, 2009 8:12 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
There's a Church's Chicken down the street from me with a sign advertising a fry cook opportunity. I've heard somewhere that is good preparation for getting into firefights.

Are you saying people who like fried chicken are more violent than people who like hamburgers?? You and Wulf...

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

WULFENSTAR

Friday, October 30, 2009 8:22 PM (P)

So, since we are all being silly... have another clip.

STORYMARK

Friday, October 30, 2009 8:40 PM (P)

Wulfie, I've yet to see you be anything but "silly".

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

WULFENSTAR

Friday, October 30, 2009 8:52 PM (P)

The worst nightmare of most liberals (sorry) is a white boy taught in the streets and the ghettos of our country.

Especially if they keep a sense of right and wrong.

and AGAIN, this shit that happened, was wrong.

But hey, its more fun for some to sit and give ME shit for bringing it up.

WULFENSTAR

Friday, October 30, 2009 9:14 PM (P)

So, where's the Punisher when you need them?

Its in each and every one of you. You just have to have the courage to stand up and be counted.

To stop, by any means necessary, the evil you see.

ANTHONYT

Friday, October 30, 2009 9:16 PM (P)

Hello Wulf,

I continue to listen, continue to see you fail to notice your missteps, and continue to see you ramp up the bravado of your stance.

There is no Navy Seal, Ranger, or other Special Forces operative who would feel sanguine about taking on 15 potentially armed people solo with an assault rifle.

Most especially not anyone who had actually been in a firefight.

And absolutely most especially not at 'close range' as you suggest. If you are using a rifle at close range, then you're doing it wrong.

I am just stunned by the things I continue to see you post, Wulf.

Try to step outside of yourself for a moment. If you are Rambo incarnate, 15 man killer, then try to imagine the 99.999% of humanity (including military veterans) who aren't unstoppable killing machines. People who can't dodge bullets or absorb wounds like a Hollywood Hero. People who can't outshoot a cluster of 15 men without a squad gun. Most particularly people who can't do it without murdering the very victim they are trying to save.

In other words, try to imagine what real people might do.

My personal hope is that a lot of people might have called the police to break up the rape- but that the onlookers must not have understood just what it was they were looking at. It's the only way I can rationalize the actions of bystanders. They must have thought this was a woman willingly servicing multiple paramours.

If she was not constantly yelling for help, all anyone might have seen was a woman being serviced by several grinning men. Chances are that very soon after the rape began, she would have been spent, catatonic, and hiding in some corner of her mind waiting for it all to be over.

And so when Jo Blo came by, it's possible he had no idea that this was anything more than a very public and pornographic display.

The alternative- that multiple passerby recognized the rape and failed to call the police- is almost unthinkable.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

WULFENSTAR

Friday, October 30, 2009 9:19 PM (P)

15 may be a stretch.

7, I can say is possible.

Who were these people that they could listen to her screams AND DO NOTHING?

WULFENSTAR

Friday, October 30, 2009 9:19 PM (P)

15 may be a stretch.

7, I can say is possible.

Who were these people that they could listen to her screams AND DO NOTHING?

ETA: Im assuming that the vic is on the ground and the other 14 are standing.

ETA: "I am just stunned by the things I continue to see you post, Wulf." GOOD. Because you should be. You should be horrified. You should WANT to do something about this.

KWICKO

Friday, October 30, 2009 9:30 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
I get the impression that Wulfie spends a lot of time hanging 'round the house fantasizing about various scenarios in which he gets to shoot the fuck out of blacks/mexicans/federals/libruls - depending on the fantasy. Probably all of the above in his favorite scenarios. Likely clutching his weapon while daydreaming.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

Awww, hell, Story - *I* have fantasies like that, too. I take mine out on video games. "Get some!"

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

PIZMOBEACH

Friday, October 30, 2009 9:31 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

Who were these people that they could listen to her screams AND DO NOTHING?

I don't recall reading anything about "her screaming." Maybe you are assuming? Hearing them in your head to trigger your violent reaction, a way of giving your violence permission, free reign, violence that you know would not be questioned if a young women were screaming?
Maybe in the past you did not return violence and wish you had or you could not. Now, you feel like you were less of a man and it nags at you and is looking for a way out? It makes sense with a lot of your film references - they are usually over the top, retribution/revenge scenarios.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

KWICKO

Friday, October 30, 2009 9:32 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Agent: I think that was more aimed squarely across my bow, since DT knows I'm of German descent. And I guess I *should* make the names German-sounding, because one can make fun of one's own "race" or heritage, right?

I don't understand that concept.

*blank German stare*

Damn Germans have NO sense of humor...

(Actually, I'm living proof that we DO have a sense of humor. It's just really, REALLY dark.)

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

WULFENSTAR

Friday, October 30, 2009 9:34 PM (P)

"I don't recall reading anything about "her screaming." Maybe you are assuming? Hearing them in your head to trigger your violent reaction, a way of giving your violence permission, free reign, violence that you know would not be questioned if a young women were screaming?
Maybe in the past you did not return violence and wish you had or you could not. Now, you feel like you were less of a man and it nags at you and is looking for a way out? It makes sense with a lot of your film references - they are usually over the top, retribution/revenge scenarios."

Ok. So, Pizz, I guess you think that a girl being raped for 2 and 1/2 hours would NOT have been screaming.

You want to talk about your disregard for another human being? Or leave that for another session?

KWICKO

Friday, October 30, 2009 9:35 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"How many firefights have YOU been in Wulf ? How many on your side ? How many on the other side ? How many shots did you fire ? How many 'enemies' did you hit ? How did those firefights turn out ?

For the record."

Meet me in person, and Ill tell you.

[Cue suspense music]

Duh-duh-DUHHHHHHH.

Hey - Look, everyone! It's the return of The Internet Hard Man!

PIZMOBEACH

Friday, October 30, 2009 9:49 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

Ok. So, Pizz, I guess you think that a girl being raped for 2 and 1/2 hours would NOT have been screaming.

You want to talk about your disregard for another human being? Or leave that for another session?

There you go assuming things. Granted, in the movies, she would be screaming. And, just as luck would have it, you would be walking by having just come from getting your guns cleaned and freshly loaded - you even saved money on latino piercing ammo - oh, the twists and turns of a crazy economy!

I listened to Talk of the Nation's report - their report suggested that she was in fact nearly passed out from alcohol.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=114287592

"CONAN: And what do we know, exactly, about what happened at that homecoming dance at the high school?

Mr. FISCHER: Well, what we understand is that the victim, who's a student at the high school, attended the dance, which ran from 7 p.m. to 11 p.m. on Saturday night. And she left around 9:30 and walked outside to - with the idea she'd catch some air and perhaps also get a ride home from her father. But before she called her father, she met a classmate, who encouraged her to come hang out with him and his friends in a courtyard on campus. It's dark at night, fairly well-removed from where the dance was, and some drinking went on there, and she was incapacitated. And while she was very drunk, semi-conscious, she was assaulted both physically and sexually by a number of young men."

Not exactly what you were thinking/hoping.

I think Anthony's description makes sense too.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

ANTHONYT

Friday, October 30, 2009 9:49 PM (P)

"Ok. So, Pizz, I guess you think that a girl being raped for 2 and 1/2 hours would NOT have been screaming."

Hello Wulf,

Try to extend your imagination a bit beyond Rainbow Six.

Try to imagine merely screaming for over 2 hours under ideal conditions. How long before you are hoarse and exhausted?

Then try to imagine the mental process of being raped. The horrible violation, the inability to comprehend and accept what is happening to you.

Try hard to imagine this. I know it requires empathy. I suspect you don't have much empathy, since you are unable to fit your perceptions into anyone else's shoes. But try anyway.

If it helps, go rent Closetland. You seem to relate to the world primarily through movies anyhow.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

WULFENSTAR

Friday, October 30, 2009 9:52 PM (P)

The problem with you guys, is that I DO know what it sounds like.

YOU DON'T.

WULFENSTAR

Friday, October 30, 2009 9:54 PM (P)

But nevermind.

Im done.

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, October 30, 2009 10:24 PM (P)

Wulf, while I don't believe all of it is justified, some of the folk who're giving you shit have a point in that your tactics do somewhat suck.

I've actually taken something of a pounding trying to break up what appeared to be an assault headed in the direction of rape, but was in fact a marital spat over infidelity - which got me roughed up by the both of em, mind you - it was stupid to intervene but I was young, proud and foolish - and I'd prolly do so again, but not charging in willy-nilly like that, oh hell no.

First, hell yes, call the cops - for all their flaws they're better armed and equipped, and have more manpower than you do.

Second, direct engagement is counterproductive when you are that badly outnumbered - being able to play on crowd pyschology is a skill you do not have and thus makes it a losing proposition and adds one more target - armed or not you can be quickly overwhelmed by folks too hopped up on mindbending substances or just wired on adrenalin rush who will not react in a logical fashion.

That doesn't mean you cannot intervene, it just means you need different tactics - as mentioned, the last thing you wanna be when the cops show up is in a position to be mistaken for an armed perp, that's bad bad news.

I woulda went and got my car, then while laying solid on the horn and highbeams, slowly rolled it towards them - an action with some risk involved, but also with a fast line of retreat, since if they deployed firearms or charged the vehicle you can slam it into reverse and make a J-turn, and if they DID pursue it splits them up and throws them off what they're doing - they're not likely to catch a car on foot, and as a calculated risk it's better than a headfirst engagement against superior numbers.

Also, one could run back into the school and pull the fire alarm, the more ruckus and racket you can throw at them, cast them into confusion while keeping a clear head yourself - that opens OPTIONS, it gives you that third line of thinking and enough of an edge to maybe be useful in a situation instead of escalating it.

Again, armed or not, the best weapon in a crisis is the one between your ears, not the one in your holster - that is for the last ditch defense of your person at short range and should never be used in an aggressive fashion whatever.

-Frem
There always has to be a price.

WULFENSTAR

Friday, October 30, 2009 10:35 PM (P)

Actually Frem, that makes sense. Provided you have a car, and it can fit in the space needed.

SIGNYM

Friday, October 30, 2009 10:38 PM (P)

Quote:
The problem with you guys, is that I DO know what it sounds like. YOU DON'T.

The girl may have been too drunk to fight back. Also, I heard a guy who saw a gang-rape where the girl was so positively outnumbered she just mentally checked out. Circumstances vary.

ETA: Oh, just saw that somneone posted with facts. She was nearly passed out from being drunk. If she's lucky, she won't remember the whole thing.

KWICKO

Friday, October 30, 2009 10:48 PM (P)

Quote:
Wulfie wrote:
ETA: "I am just stunned by the things I continue to see you post, Wulf." GOOD. Because you should be. You should be horrified. You should WANT to do something about this.

So you're saying I should be stunned and horrified by your posts? And I should WANT to do something to about you posting them?

Curious.

KWICKO

Friday, October 30, 2009 10:52 PM (P)

Quote:

First, hell yes, call the cops - for all their flaws they're better armed and equipped, and have more manpower than you do.

Not to mention the fact that in most instances, just them showing up is enough to break up most of the action. So that's one thing they're good for.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Saturday, October 31, 2009 6:42 AM (P)

It's kind of weird how you are making this about gun laws.

In answer to some of your questions - I'd do anything i could to help the girl. Call 911 - actually 000, if it were here. Maybe I'd do more, drive at them with a car, head lights on full beam, horn blaring. I don't know... I'd like to think that I would NOT do nothing.

If I had a gun, I'd shoot warning shots. But I'll never own a gun. If everyone was armed, as per your vision of a glorious utopia, so would the perps, and you'd probably end up getting the girl (and yourself) killed in an Butch Cassidy type shootout. Not a great outcome.

I can't quite get at the core of your point. The perps (still alleged at this point) will receive harsh sentencing. The girl seems to be physically recovering at least. The community is stunned, outraged, ashamed. It's a shocking story, similar to one that is running in the news hear - only the perps (alleged) are members of a football club and there was 17 of them and two girls involved. It's terrible that it happens - but......?

NIKI2

Sunday, November 1, 2009 4:09 AM (P)

Quote:
I woulda went and got my car, then while laying solid on the horn and highbeams, slowly rolled it towards them - an action with some risk involved, but also with a fast line of retreat, since if they deployed firearms or charged the vehicle you can slam it into reverse and make a J-turn, and if they DID pursue it splits them up and throws them off what they're doing - they're not likely to catch a car on foot, and as a calculated risk it's better than a headfirst engagement against superior numbers.

Also, one could run back into the school and pull the fire alarm, the more ruckus and racket you can throw at them, cast them into confusion while keeping a clear head yourself - that opens OPTIONS, it gives you that third line of thinking and enough of an edge to maybe be useful in a situation instead of escalating it.

Again, armed or not, the best weapon in a crisis is the one between your ears, not the one in your holster - that is for the last ditch defense of your person at short range and should never be used in an aggressive fashion whatever.

Well said, Frem. And thankx for the ideas, I'll keep them in mind (especially the car thing).

As to the incident itself, given it happened just across the San Rafael-Richmond Bridge, I'll add a bit. Richmond is not a safe city. It probably has the highest violence of any area in the Bay Area except some of the inner-city sections of SF and Oakland.

There are reasons for this. One is that, when people are incarcerated in Q (San Quentin), their families often move here to visit and be near them. Marin County is too expensive for most people, so a lot of them end up in Richmond, which is directly across the Bay. When the criminals are released, no matter where they were arrested/convicted, they are released here. The fact that we have such a VERY low violence rate here in Marin and Richmond has such a high one pretty much says where they go--especially if family has settled there.

It's a place we have to drive through to go to Oakland, Berserkeley, etc., and we don't get out of our cars. Drive-by shootings, shootings out in the open on the streets, are not unusual. It's a poor, dangerous area. Unfortunately, that means the people there are trapped by financial necessity in a dangerous place, and yes, there is violence in the schools. I don't know how they prevent it; given the poverty of the area, the schools don't have big budgets and I would imagine after-school activities are limited.

Sadly, too, the idea of a bunch of people watching and doing nothing isn't unthinkable...remember it happened to that woman in, New York was it?, years ago. Mob mentality exists and is all too easy to incite, and in Richmond, I have no doubt few would stand up and try to do something. Calling the police is a rational action, but in Richmond, also, the police are not trusted. Young people today live in a world which didn't exist in my time; the rules are different, the mentality is different.

There are lots of guns in Richmond, another reason for the high crime rate. Go ahead and say what you will about people owning guns to protect themselves; in that atmosphere, guns are used far more for things other than self-protection. Walking around Richmond at night with or without a gun is pretty dumb.

That's the atmosphere where it happened, beyond that I know nothing about the particular school; additionally, yes, alcohol no doubt did contribute...when life feels trapped in poverty and crime, alcohol is part of the equation, contributes to inhibition, violence and mob mentality.

I wish I'd been around; if I'd known Frem's suggestion of using a car, I would have. And called 911. I'd like to think many people would, but I've never heard the car suggestion before, and I certainly wouldn't have tried to do anything otherwise, even with a gun--certainly not a rifle; as has been pointed out, that's so dumb as to be silly. An anonymous call to the police would have been nice (but pulling fire alarms would be danger

SIGNYM

Sunday, November 1, 2009 2:11 PM (P)

Quote:
Want to post your name, address, SS# and account info on here? Please. Post it for the public to see, and to use.

Quote:
The problem with you guys, is that I DO know what it sounds like. YOU DON'T.

You're trying to incite us all into a blind killing/ suicidal rage (yanno, the kind that you experience, the kind that you nurture and relive over and over again via video). The problem with you, Wulf, is that you never really stopped being a gang member. You just changed allegiances, isall: Found a new set of "bad guys" to wipe out, a different reason to rage, a new set of laws to violate, and now you're trying to create your own "gang".

You asked how this could be prevented in the future. "This" basically means acting violently, without empathy for another human being. In other words, acting like you. So the answer is : I dunno, why don't you tell us?

I'm gonna play armchair psychiatrist: Wulf, before you do anything else, you must come to a forgiving resolution of yourself. Instead of watching violent videos, get a beaten down dog, one that snarls and snaps at everyone who walks by, and love it back to happiness. See a psychiatrist who specializes in PTSD. Do whatever it takes to get the poison of rage out of your system because you're a danger to everyone who is close to you- particularly your wife. What you feel, while completely understandable, is not an answer. Please, get help.

DREAMTROVE

Sunday, November 1, 2009 4:11 PM (P)

Quote:
Magonsdaughter:
It's kind of weird how you are making this about gun laws.

Have you met Wulf? It's kinda weird how he makes everything about race and gun laws, and may actively seek out stories that he thinks can be made about race and gun laws

In this particular case, his suggestion that the solution is "guns in school" Well, since this was clearly a gang-rape, the gang would certainly have guns in such a situation, and the girl would be dead.

Even where you're allowed to have guns, most people elect not to, like me, here.

If anyone caught the canadian folk singer eaten by coyotes story, it's clear that Wulfie is not alone. A lot of people were trying to make *that* story about gun laws. I'm sorry. We have coyotes here. It takes a lot less than guns to fend off coyotes. In fact, they never attack the conscious, which makes me think they were opportunistic killers following an accident or human attack.

As for the school rape victim, I recommend a much more powerful weapon than a gun: A cell phone. A gun against a gang is probably pretty easy to disarm if the attacker is a gang and the defender isn't one of Frems Femme Fatales

NIKI2

Sunday, November 1, 2009 6:07 PM (P)

I agree.

I haven't seen the coyote story, but definitely, they aren't "killers" where humans are concerned. Scavengers, and their usual prey are small critters, pets, etc. We have been graced to have them show up here and it's a real joy; sleeping outdoors, I get to hear them "sing" a lot. People who live on the fringes have learned the hard way to keep their pets indoors; otherwise, they are no threat at all.

In fact we see them fairly regularly--they have figured out by now that they're safe from humans, and have no other predators to speak of around here. My husband saw a pair while running day before yesterday with my dog. Tashi took off to check them out, and they checked each OTHER out (he's a husky, so too big to be prey). He followed them a short ways then came back to Jim; there was never any attempt to attack him.

People make "news" out of things they WANT to believe, and as for Wulf and his gun fettish, he's welcome to it, but it's easy to ignore when he uses it stupidly. Which is a lot of the time.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, November 1, 2009 9:50 PM (P)

I'll offer you this one also - given that they are ubiquitous and close at hand nearly everywhere you go.

A class C fire extinguisher is one hell of a weapon against a pack of bad guys in a pinch, it will blind them and rob oxygen from the air, and if they cannot breathe they cannot chase you or use weapons effectively - giving you the edge you need to make a speedy retreat.

One girl I knew responded to an attempt to accost her by snatching one from the wall of the parking garage and letting them have some, then ran up the steps emptying the cannister behind her as cover, the cops nailed the perps near the building quite easily since they were covered in white dust.

Something to keep firmly in mind when you are in a dangerous or potentially dangerous area or situation and otherwise unarmed.

-F

DREAMTROVE

Monday, November 2, 2009 4:02 AM (P)

Nik

Interesting. Here they fear people. I guess on a hiking trail, they might become very accustomed to them, maybe people fed them, prolly even. That being the case, it's still a leap to "people are food." There's more to this story.

Frem

Yeah, if one's ready at hand. But a cell phone you can use to text gets at the dance. Esp. something like twitter, you can gnab a large number of people. One of them can grab a weapon on the way out the door.

I like the way Buffy and co. improvise on weapons. I was just rewatching some. Yeah, I get your issues with it, it's still a great show (what TV show doesn't have issues?) Yeah, Firefly i great, but it does have issues.

NIKI2

Monday, November 2, 2009 7:31 AM (P)

Around here, nobody feeds the coyotes, DT--or any other wild animal that I know of (except the birds... ;o) It's a big "no-no". The local wildlfe rehabs are careful to handle the "patients" absolutely minimally, too. But the wildlife knows it's protected...deer will stand there and stare at you as you pass them within a few feet, as long as you don't actually stop. If you do, they walk away slowly.

We had a bobcat come at us stiff-legged once--scared the hell out of us, especially as Jim was only in shorts and jogging shoes! She had kits off the trail; otherwise, bobcats react the same as coyotes and deer, just walk away at their own pace. Luckily we've never seen one of the big cats, tho' there are frequent sightings, but since around HERE there have been no attacks, it's okay. Have been some in the East Bay, where they just keep building further and further East and into their territory. They just arrived HERE a few years back and there's plenty of open lands for them. It'll stay that way, our open space is all protected.

Would like to hear more about the story--is there a link in this thread? If not, d'ya have one? Curious.

Yes, a fire extinguisher is a good idea, but obviously only if one is available, and even then, when having to think quickly, it might not come to mind fast enough, whereas getting in my car and using IT as a weapon, that would come to mind immediately!

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, November 2, 2009 8:40 AM (P)

Well, reason I mentioned it was just to get folk thinking, actually.

Ponder what it was that made Rorschach so bloody dangerous ?

In the right place and time, a pencil can be as deadly as an assault rifle, a length of yarn as deadly as a grenade.

The tool is not the weapon - you are.
Remember this.

-F

DREAMTROVE

Monday, November 2, 2009 6:24 PM (P)

Nik

people are never suppose to feed them, but everywhere has morons. There's a recent thread on the coyote attack, I'm too tired to find it, if you don't dig it up I'll try

Frem, I don't know how that Rorschach comment was meant, but conjures up willow pencil vampire images.

ETA

WULFENSTAR

Monday, November 2, 2009 6:51 PM (P)

I don't know what others see...

but I just see X-rays of the pelvic region.

lol

PIZMOBEACH

Monday, November 2, 2009 7:16 PM (P)

I see Serenity schematics.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

STORYMARK

Monday, November 2, 2009 8:56 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
The worst nightmare of most liberals (sorry) is a white boy taught in the streets and the ghettos of our country.

Especially if they keep a sense of right and wrong.

Yeah.... that's just dumb.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

STORYMARK

Monday, November 2, 2009 8:59 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"I don't recall reading anything about "her screaming." Maybe you are assuming? Hearing them in your head to trigger your violent reaction, a way of giving your violence permission, free reign, violence that you know would not be questioned if a young women were screaming?

Well, now that we know the facts, it's clear someone was assuming, it just turns out it was you.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

BYTEMITE

Monday, November 2, 2009 9:07 PM (P)

Gasp! DT hasn't read The Watchmen?

I apologize, but now there must be a prerequisite period of scorning. *scorn* *scorning* *still scorning*

Okay, good.

How to explain it... Basically, it's a graphic novel about "capes." Rorschach is the only one who isn't a complete tool, though he has ISSUES.

BYTEMITE

Monday, November 2, 2009 9:10 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
I don't know what others see...

but I just see X-rays of the pelvic region.

lol

Bugs, people, faces, and particle physics.

Or possibly a complete, enlightened commentary on politics.

WULFENSTAR

Monday, November 2, 2009 10:49 PM (P)

"Basically, it's a graphic novel about "capes." Rorschach is the only one who isn't a complete tool, though he has ISSUES."

Amen.

lol

He was also the only one who never quit. Never backed down, never bent his knee.

Even tho it cost him everything. Sanity, life, faith.

But in the end, he was also the only one who was right.

This world is so fraked up.

*sigh

ETA: The new name to the thread "What do you see?" Is surprisingly appropriate.

I would just add... "Now, what are you going to do about it?"

WULFENSTAR

Monday, November 2, 2009 11:46 PM (P)

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/pastor-california-gang-rape-victim-speaks/sto
ry?id=8974280

"The victim of last weekend's attack ...whose friends say had been looking forward to the homecoming dance for weeks."

This makes me want to scream and cry at the same time.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, November 3, 2009 12:33 AM (P)

Wulf, Go back to my most previous post.... you're near to being full-on delusional. You may be a danger to those closest to you, particularly your wife. Please get help before you hurt someone.

KWICKO

Tuesday, November 3, 2009 1:38 AM (P)

Quote:
The worst nightmare of most liberals (sorry) is a white boy taught in the streets and the ghettos of our country.

That would make me the worst nightmare of most liberals (sorry). Except that I'm a liberal (sorry). So am I their nightmare, or their dream?

And what was your point again?

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

KWICKO

Tuesday, November 3, 2009 1:40 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Gasp! DT hasn't read The Watchmen?

I apologize, but now there must be a prerequisite period of scorning. *scorn* *scorning* *still scorning*

Okay, good.

How to explain it... Basically, it's a graphic novel about "capes." Rorschach is the only one who isn't a complete tool, though he has ISSUES.

If I can't quite summon outright scorn, will a stern look and a cross word suffice?

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, November 3, 2009 2:01 AM (P)

Perhaps, but it would have to be very stern. Like summoned from a pentagram stern.

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, November 3, 2009 2:57 AM (P)

I have not read the Watchmen

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, November 3, 2009 3:03 AM (P)

It's actually pretty good, one of the first (and at this point, I think only) graphic novels to actually be awarded any literary awards.

But, I imagine you have a lot of other stuff you'd rather read first, so I don't hold it against you. :)

KWICKO

Tuesday, November 3, 2009 3:09 AM (P)

We won't hold it against you, but there may be stern looks. Just so you know.

NIKI2

Tuesday, November 3, 2009 7:06 AM (P)

Sig, was your

Quote:
Wulf, Go back to my most previous post.... you're near to being full-on delusional. You may be a danger to those closest to you, particularly your wife. Please get help before you hurt someone.

actually in response to Wulf's

Quote:
"The victim of last weekend's attack ...whose friends say had been looking forward to the homecoming dance for weeks." This makes me want to scream and cry at the same time.

I find that confusing...unless I'm missing something, he seemed to be expressing the same emotions I feel about that sentence.

DT: No, around here people actually DON'T feed the wildlife...intentionally that is. Can't count the bandits ('coons) getting at some pet's food bowl...etc. Marin is a strangely savvy place when it comes to animals; very pro-pet, more pro-controlling-your-pet than many places; and very "leave the wildlife alone". I've never seen or heard of anyone feeding wildlife, and I've been here thirty-some years.

Of course doesn't count backyard wildlife; I put out squirrel, hummer and bird food (but as long as I do it consistently, don't think it harms anything, the squirrels don't overpopulate and we need all the birds we can get, as the one thing where there still ARE idjits is keeping cats in--backyard bird predation has affected the population).

None of which has anything to do with the topic at hand, except to say I can't locate the coyote thread, so if you know where it is, I'd be grateful.

Wulf, I THINK I know what you're intimating with

Quote:
The worst nightmare of most liberals (sorry) is a white boy taught in the streets and the ghettos of our country.

but I can't see how that would be a liberal's nightmare. It's certainly not mine...I think you're assuming without understanding on that one--or just lashing out.

Byte'n'all: I haven't read Watchmen either, but my excuse is I don't read graphic novels (except for V for Vendetta, originals of which I got but haven't read past the first one). So scorn away, dear, to your heart's content, s'okay by me

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, November 3, 2009 3:13 PM (P)

Nik,

someone always will. Every county has its free tibet crowd

SIGNYM

Tuesday, November 3, 2009 4:54 PM (P)

NIKI: My advice to Wulf was about the entire content of his posts here. The point about being delusional was addressed to his comments about being a librul's worst nightmare (heh) and his ideas about intervening in a situation against 15 people. Wulf IS a bomb looking for a place to go off. He's a gang-banger at heart- his solution is STILL murder and mayhem. He grinds on his rage every day, looking for someone to hurt. The only thing he's done is change his intended victims in a way that makes his rage feel justified. And he wants us to rage along with him so he can feel even more accepted, and is disappointed when some of us don't.

What I suggested still holds- I think he needs to find some poor beaten-down dog and love it back to happiness. Or something. That rage - especially if he still sees it as the answer and keeps looking for an excuse to fan it into white-heat every day- is going to get him into deep, deep trouble. He will prolly wind up doing something he really regrets which he can never undo, in addition to landing him in jail (which will be the least of his troubles). He may not see it that way, but that's the problem.

KWICKO

Tuesday, November 3, 2009 6:49 PM (P)

Signy: Yup, agreed on all of it.

And Wulf, DO find a dog to rescue. You might be amazed when you discover that the dog is actually rescuing YOU.

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

SIGNYM

Tuesday, November 3, 2009 7:14 PM (P)

Wulf had a question which nobody has addressed How can we keep it from happening again?. In a burst of irony, I think Wulf's solution to violence is to arm all the students and kill all the gang-bangers. Of course, I have a different set of solutions. But right now I'm too busy to finish that thought...

SIGNYM

Tuesday, November 3, 2009 8:19 PM (P)

So, to get back to the topic. I know Wulf will find my ideas to be "fuzzy-headed liberalism", but here goes....

You have to deal with the problems multi-generationally. And you have to do it all at once, because if you focus on one age group they will with time be influenced by the others anyway.

But it boils down to: JOBS. OWNERSHIP. EDUCATION. DRUG TREATMENT. COUNSELING. MEDICAL CARE. Until and unless you feel invested in your neighborhood and your life, you will not work to improve... anything.

For some, jail is the only solution. There are different levels of participation in gangs. Most kids join for self-protection. But all gangs have enforcers and recruiters; peeps who are crazier than shithouse rats. Once those enforcers are gone, the gang falls apart.

We need to legalize pot. And we need to so something about our endemic drug problem, which creates the market which feeds the gangs.

KWICKO

Wednesday, November 4, 2009 12:07 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Wulf had a question which nobody has addressed How can we keep it from happening again?. In a burst of irony, I think Wulf's solution to violence is to arm all the students and kill all the gang-bangers. Of course, I have a different set of solutions. But right now I'm too busy to finish that thought...

Well, you could have 24-hour surveillance and live in a police state. That would probably curb crime a bit. But as I understand it, you don't want that, do you, Wulfie?

Sad to say, but part of the "freedom" you want for all of us involves the freedom for monsters to behave as monsters. We can't necessarily PREVENT this from ever happening again, at least not without severely curtailing the rights of everyone in the process. About the best we can hope for, it seems, is to punish the wrongdoers afterwards. Unless you're a big believer in punishing people for the crimes they MIGHT commit in the future. Are you?

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Wednesday, November 4, 2009 3:20 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
No, Kwick.

This is about a group of (and forgive me for not being able to call them human) PREDATORS/ANIMALS/NONHUMANS, raping a girl for HOURS. While some of the same evil animals stood by and watched.

It's an interesting thing that we do, isn't it? Dehumanising people when they do abhorrent things. The issue that we can't seem to face is that they are human, same as you or I, they bleed, they hurt, they have emotions.

Made me dig out an interesting article.

Quote:
Criminals are abused children, lost as adults

The perpetrators of crime are victims too, says author John Marsden.

These days we have all the sympathy in the world for abused children. We weep for their loss of innocence. We understand how it is that many (in some cases all) of the pillars of their lives have been knocked out from under them. We support them with counselling and care. That's how it's supposed to work anyway. In many cases it does work like this.

Almost in the same breath we denounce child abusers. We call them scum, filth, animals, monsters. We talk about how they should be castrated, locked up for life, executed. "If I could get my hands on those mongrels. . ."

At the extreme are those terrible scenes ofhysterical adults surrounding a police wagon containing a child molester and rocking it backwards and forwards, or the mob attacking the house of a child molester who has been released from prison.

One of the ways we justify this rage is by telling ourselves and each other that we are showing our solidarity with the abused children. But one of the truths about this complex issue is that the abused child for whom we show such support, and the child abuser for whom we show such hatred and contempt, are the same person.

We claim to feel love for the abused child but when, inevitably, some abused children grow up and start acting out the consequences of their abuse, we react to them with rage and hatred.

That abused child who has had the pillars of his life knocked out from under him will, without support and understanding, grow up continuing to feel frightened and lost. To allay these feelings, he may try to recreate any situation in which he felt "held", and these may include encounters where he was literally held, as he was beaten, or seduced into a sexual encounter.
It is impossible for a loved, secure person to commit a serious crime.

At those times, the adult created a little world that just the two of them inhabited, where all other concerns ceased to exist, and where the child, no matter how bizarrely, felt something like security. If, as an adult, that same child finds himself in a world that is frightening and insecure, a world in which he has no real connections with anyone, he may try to recreate those moments of illusionary security.

It's a difficult process to understand. And it's not an inevitable process. Many, perhaps most, people who are abused as children go on to lead secure and well-balanced lives, often because the abuse took place out of context.

In her book Banished Knowledge, Alice Miller referred to a survey of American prisoners that showed that about 90 per cent had been abused as children. She commented that the other 10 per cent would have been abused too - it was just that they had not yet been able to admit it.

The prisons of Australia are also full of abused children. Those same children whom we profess to care about when they are 10 or 12, but whom we stop caring about when they are 16 or 18.

All crime is illness. All those who commit serious crimes are ill. The more horrifying the crime, the greater the illness of the perpetrator. It is impossible for a loved, secure, happy person to commit a serious crime.

Shame on politicians who use "getting tough on law and order" as an election slogan. They are exploiting these abused children to gain power.

It would dramatically alter our society if we treated criminals as people with serious illnesses. We could do better by them, and we could do better fo

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, November 4, 2009 7:25 PM (P)

"Sad to say, but part of the "freedom" you want for all of us involves the freedom for monsters to behave as monsters. We can't necessarily PREVENT this from ever happening again, at least not without severely curtailing the rights of everyone in the process. About the best we can hope for, it seems, is to punish the wrongdoers afterwards. Unless you're a big believer in punishing people for the crimes they MIGHT commit in the future. Are you?"

No, I neither want a police-state or to punish people for crimes they might commit.

You know what would be nice?

If you are acting in the protection of a victim, you are automatically free from prosecution by those committing the crime.

I.E. You can't be sued, OR charged with anything by the state, if its proven that you were acting in the defense of someone else.

Call it the Superman law, or the Mr Incredible law.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, November 4, 2009 8:47 PM (P)

Nice article, Magonsdaughter.

Wanted to add something I hope you'll find interesting: Strangely, it was this board which turned me into an (almost) pacifist. Years of hearing Death to all potential terrorists! and End violence with guns and Protect our freedoms by spying on citizens! made me sensitive to the whole "ends and means" question. Many discussions with people on both ends of the spectrum made me realize how irrational the concept is that you can create a good outcome from nefarious dealings. I've lived long enough to see blowback come right back at us from when we took the expedient way out. You can't make people love you by hating them, you can't impose freedom tyrannically, nor create prosperity from greed.

The other thing I noticed here: Pounding on people NEVER does any good. While tit for tat may work in prisoner's dilemma games, it assumes that the responder is capable of learning unemotionally. But what I've observed is that responding to snark with snark just sets up a dynamic which swirls down the drain pretty quickly. Given my snarky nature, this is a hard thing for me stop doing, but I try.

Reading people's posts about the tyranny of government... and the (many) cases in which people were railroaded into a conviction ... made me realize that the death penalty was too great a power to give to the government, and that no matter WHAT your ideology, if you have to reach for a gun to convince someone to do things your way, you have already lost in the marketplace of ideas.

I guess in the end it comes down to this: There are no monsters, only people. Damaged people, possibly even dangerous people, but still people. Calling people monsters may be a good outlet for anger and rage, but it doesn't solve the problem, its still part of the SAME problem.

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:07 PM (P)

Wulf, there are many good-samaritan clauses in state law, problem is that we live in a society so strangled by conflicting laws deliberately worded vaguely enough to mean just about any damn thing, and our court systems are naught more than a feeding frenzy pool of caviar for the lawyers.

As I mentioned, my theological beliefs do not allow me to interfere with the imminent death of another person save in particular circumstance - which means means I won't be givin CPR to someone, right ?
Mind, this is a huge oversimplication, it's way more complex than that but it'd take too damn long to explain.

Well, *because* of the fact that it would take an hour or so to explain, I simply allow folk to believe that I take no lifesaving action due to threat of lawsuit - and the fact that said excuse is both accepted and entirely credible should be enough right there to illustrate part of the reason folk do not intervene.

I know it's your natural inclination to do so, and it's a credit to you despite the flaming you take, but again - you ALSO have a responsibility to not further endanger the victim or bystanders, which gunfire does have a tendency to do, whether intentional or not.

While several well meaning suggestions have been thrown in the most vicious and insulting way possible (something which I personally have found offensive as hell, cause they have exactly the opposite effect in that case), do not discredit that there ARE issues you need to work through because as I pointed out, my "edge" in crisis situations comes from reducing opponents to exactly that rageful-vengeful mindset where they react without thinking, putting them in a re-active, rather than pro-active, posture.

Tis why I suggested a martial arts instructor, or a patient hunter, to teach you that restraint which would allow you to assess the situation and take the most effective action with the least risk, instead of re-actively charging in headfirst, something which took me a damn long time to overcome as well, and not without a price, neither - the physical consequences of such youthful indiscretion are a bitch when you start gettin old, believe it.

I'll even take that a step further, and suggest that if you do take the martial arts route, look for a Judo or Akido teacher, someone who's concept involves turning superior force against itself - you might find it frustrating at first, but as you learn the application the control will come with it, trust me on this...

Of course, if you're enough like I was in that respect, you'll prolly learn the hard way, by winding up on your ass every time your temper gets the better of you - but it's still worth it, well worth it.

Learn to THINK, then act.

-Frem

There always has to be a price.

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:24 PM (P)

And yes, Alice Miller's work is critical to any kind of understanding about the hows and whys.

While handling our created monsters is a matter up for much debate - not creating them in the first damned place would be a good start to a resolution, wouldn't it now ?

Although in specific situations I will say that a "good" outcome can technically come from nefarious dealings, but it carries such a terrible price that it should be avoided unless there is utterly, absolutely, no available alternative - that's why I more or less retired and left things to Justin, because the situation of the hellcamps and their equivalents within the juvenile justice system no longer needs a wrecking ball, but a negotiator - cause such situations where it MIGHT do more good than harm are tremendously rare, and once you start drinking from that poisonous well, it contaminates every action that flows from it.

Which eventually, unchecked, becomes the very problem is was meant to solve - look at how our intel goons have become a greater threat to us than the folks they were set against, classic example.

There's also that violence damages the user as well as the recipient - like a hammer pounding nails, no matter how tough the hammer is, it takes a beating too, and will eventually break for it - that's a lesson I learned a hell of a lot later than I woulda liked to.

The best route is not allowing things to come to a crisis point where all the alternatives and the opportunity to use them have been wasted - which is why I go after the enablers of tyranny and try to steer them off their course, if you prevent the machine from being built you never have to smash it, yes ?

-Frem

There always has to be a price.

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:29 PM (P)

sig,

if you don't want stuff like this to happen, don't support the institution.

Magonsdaughter,

I've heard this argument all my life, and I don't buy it. Here's why: I've watched it happen, a lot, and it doesn't look anything like this. The serial rapists, serial killers, and criminals I have known that do the most damage are golden boys who could do no wrong, not abused children. The abused children who commit crimes are often people who see power, they're a minority of people, but they're just like other people, they identify the source of power as abuse, and violence. These people bully and even kill, but they don't form packs and attack. Still, regardless of what someone has been through, I have no sympathy for these people at all. A monster is a monster regardless of how they were made. They value only one thing: Themselves.

More complicated characters are more complex. Tormented souls. They can be insane, violent or criminal, but they're not of the same stripe. I knew a kid who was abused, and very violent. He stabbed a girl, abused a young boy, was generally a destructive force, but he was a mess inside, not a gang organizer. He was constantly looking for outside approval, and then lashing back against those who didn't give it. The boy he abused grew up to be a much more serious abuser, but completely unsympathetic. He would rape and steal and rat on everyone. He was a master manipulator who cared about himself, and no one else. If you gave him your approval or a sign that you cared, then you were a sucker that could be easily manipulated, and he's gladly take you for all he could get.

Yeah, I get the point, monsters are made, not born, but still, there's a difference. Some people decide that the world consists of them, and long before anything happens to them, they're going to be liabilities. One part here I think Freud was right on: This is an early stage, and some people never get out of it. If later, that person discovers violence as the answer to problems, they will be a violent destroyer, if they see money as the power, they'll be an economic destroyer. Any way you slice it, this person made a choice not to evolve, and they make that choice every day: Other people don't matter. Well, hell, if other people don't matter to them, I'm sorry, they don't matter to me.

And people know that I have tolerance for a lot of things and have dealt with a lot of people with vary serious mental problems. This is about assholes. Their mental illness is selfishness, and they didn't learn that anywhere: we were all born with it, and the rest of us just got over it.

*some people encourage it, and create new useless people.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:36 PM (P)

I would add to all off this:

In the end, you have to choose. You either help as much as you can, or you watch.

Right vs wrong.

NIKI2

Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:36 PM (P)

Sig, thank you for clarifying, I kinda thought that was the case. And I have to say I agree with every single WORD of all three of your posts...except I came to my pacifism in a different way than you. But other than that, your remarks on everything, Wulf, what you see here, people who do bad things...I'm with you 100%.

Please, Wulf, don't get a dog. Given your temperament, I could only cringe at what would happen to the dog. Dogs aren't psychotherapy, and might only give you an outlet for your hate. If you follow any suggestions, choose among the others. Tho personally I don't think you'll ever seek any help, I think you LIKE your mindset too much. Just my opinion.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, November 4, 2009 10:05 PM (P)

http://media.www.kentnewsnet.com/media/storage/paper867/news/2009/11/0
3/News/Police.Use.Taser.On.Kent.Resident-3820639.shtml

Ahh yes. Call the police. They are the ones we pay to help, so that us little cowards don't have to get our hands dirty.

Right?

Right?

RUE

Wednesday, November 4, 2009 10:23 PM (P)

Niki

I too think Wulf LIKES his mindset too much to seek change.

After all, what would you rather believe - that you are special and always right, and everyone else who doesn't agree with you is not even human ? Or that you are a damaged product of your environment, an insignificant person and completely ordinarily human in every way ?

If anything at all drives him to seek change, it will be the (increasingly rare) moments of clarity in which he looks on his memories and realizes he is living in an insane morass of fear, hate and violent fantasy.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, November 4, 2009 11:18 PM (P)

DT

Quote:
sig, if you don't want stuff like this to happen, don't support the institution.

WHICH institution? Schools? Government? Capitalism? "Them"?

Also, I've known many people and read about many other who were slipping into a life of violence and hate until... until they identified with something or someone outside of themselves who was weaker or less fortunate... a disabled kid, an abused dog, a younger sister... The funny thing was, once they took that step they were ready to look on themselves with empathy.

I'm not saying that this works for everybody. SOME sociopaths are born and not made. But for the most part, behavior is a combination of inborn personality and environment. We can see this by the extreme differences in crime rates from one nation to the next. Shouldn't we try to change our environment so as not to create so many violent people?

(I can hear Wulf now... yeah, a society of sheep who are ready for slaughter. A society which has not learned how to protect itself, which NEEDS a violent hero in order to save them ....)

RUE

Wednesday, November 4, 2009 11:20 PM (P)

"Any way you slice it, this person made a choice not to evolve, and they make that choice every day: Other people don't matter. Well, hell, if other people don't matter to them, I'm sorry, they don't matter to me."

The statistics re those who are in jail are pretty indicative that abuse does tend to lead to abusers.

The very rich have concerns all their own - and tend to not see most people as human at all - and they then pass this on to their chidren.

I don't know how anyone can 'decide' at an early age (2, or 3 at the most) whether or not other people 'mean' anything to them. It's far too early for them to be thinking per se. And once past that point, I'm not sure that empathy v none is under their control.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Thursday, November 5, 2009 1:04 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
sig,

if you don't want stuff like this to happen, don't support the institution.

Magonsdaughter,

I've heard this argument all my life, and I don't buy it. Here's why: I've watched it happen, a lot, and it doesn't look anything like this. The serial rapists, serial killers, and criminals I have known that do the most damage are golden boys who could do no wrong, not abused children. The abused children who commit crimes are often people who see power, they're a minority of people, but they're just like other people, they identify the source of power as abuse, and violence. These people bully and even kill, but they don't form packs and attack. Still, regardless of what someone has been through, I have no sympathy for these people at all. A monster is a monster regardless of how they were made. They value only one thing: Themselves.

More complicated characters are more complex. Tormented souls. They can be insane, violent or criminal, but they're not of the same stripe. I knew a kid who was abused, and very violent. He stabbed a girl, abused a young boy, was generally a destructive force, but he was a mess inside, not a gang organizer. He was constantly looking for outside approval, and then lashing back against those who didn't give it. The boy he abused grew up to be a much more serious abuser, but completely unsympathetic. He would rape and steal and rat on everyone. He was a master manipulator who cared about himself, and no one else. If you gave him your approval or a sign that you cared, then you were a sucker that could be easily manipulated, and he's gladly take you for all he could get.

Yeah, I get the point, monsters are made, not born, but still, there's a difference. Some people decide that the world consists of them, and long before anything happens to them, they're going to be liabilities. One part here I think Freud was right on: This is an early stage, and some people never get out of it. If later, that person discovers violence as the answer to problems, they will be a violent destroyer, if they see money as the power, they'll be an economic destroyer. Any way you slice it, this person made a choice not to evolve, and they make that choice every day: Other people don't matter. Well, hell, if other people don't matter to them, I'm sorry, they don't matter to me.

And people know that I have tolerance for a lot of things and have dealt with a lot of people with vary serious mental problems. This is about assholes. Their mental illness is selfishness, and they didn't learn that anywhere: we were all born with it, and the rest of us just got over it.

*some people encourage it, and create new useless people.

Well I think the evidence is oretty clear that most people who commit acts of violence have had a background of childhood abuse and/or neglect. The jail statistics are well documented. Doesn't mean that you will automatically be violent, but the causality is pretty strongly linked.

That's not to say people shouldn't be held responsible for their actions, that being abused as a child should be used as a defense - that's not what the author is saying either. But if we want to break the cycle of violence and abuse we have to start thinking a bit differently about crime and punishment. One of the major problems is the lack of rehabiliation that takes place in jails - in fact, people are hardened and trained into expert criminals by the time they have done their time. They've learnt more about how to use violence and abuse to survive and then let loose on society once again. Crazy stuff.

I don't hold with dehumanising anyone, not even Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot who were responsible for monstrous deeds because that's exactly WHAT THEY DID and how they justified their own heinous deeds. Humanity is not all good - we need to take on board our own capacity for doing terrible stuff before we can start to fix things.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Thursday, November 5, 2009 1:13 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm not saying that this works for everybody. SOME sociopaths are born and not made. But for the most part, behavior is a combination of inborn personality and environment. We can see this by the extreme differences in crime rates from one nation to the next. Shouldn't we try to change our environment so as not to create so many violent people?

I guess the only way they could be born sociopaths is brain damage - alcohol fetal syndrome, some inutero trauma perhaps. I still think it's unlikely - the 'empathy' wiring takes place after birth - and even missing neural pathways can be formed at least into your thirties and possibly longer.

Sociopaths are created - again, child abuse, neglect, war, early institutionalisation, exposure to drugs,alcohol, violence in the home. The infant is not soothed, does not learn to self soothe, does not learn to depend on another to meet basic needs of comfort, feeding, safety and love.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, November 5, 2009 2:12 AM (P)

Sociopaths are created. Psychopaths are born with chemical imbalances, or possibly brain damage. Either way, they're people who need help, understanding, and outreach. Eventually they can develop a sense of empathy.

That doesn't absolve them of the damage they cause to other people. Rape is horrible, and if any of these gang members are psychopaths or sociopaths, they should not just be forgiven for what they've done.

But I think it's far more useful to try to give psychopaths/sociopaths therapeutic treatment, instead of the usual crime prison recidivism cycle. And then, if they are able to demonstrate control over their tendencies, they should be given chances to have a life, because otherwise they're just driven to repeat offend.

RUE

Thursday, November 5, 2009 2:35 AM (P)

"I still think it's unlikely - the 'empathy' wiring takes place after birth - and even missing neural pathways can be formed at least into your thirties and possibly longer."

This is an intersting topic to me, which I will continue to think on for years to come.

Sociopaths apparently don't learn anything from punishment/ pain (not even avoidance). Though there is some thought that sociopaths are missing mirror neurons, it seems to me they are observant enough to be able to easily manipulate others. Maybe what they are missing is making the connection with pain - their own or others. And that leads to abhorant behavior that disregards the pain of others.

I think many that we might call sociopaths are latent normals though. What they have going on the some other over-riding concern - survival or affiliation for example - that blocks out the normal response to another person's pain.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, November 5, 2009 2:57 AM (P)

Quote:
I think many that we might call sociopaths are latent normals though. What they have going on the some other over-riding concern - survival or affiliation for example - that blocks out the normal response to another person's pain.

I do think that over-riding concerns can block empathy. Although I think we ought to be careful about calling some of these people latent normals, that almost suggests, without intervention, that all children would turn out like them.

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 5, 2009 3:57 AM (P)

Quote:
That's not to say people shouldn't be held responsible for their actions, that being abused as a child should be used as a defense - that's not what the author is saying either.

Quote:
That doesn't absolve them of the damage they cause to other people. Rape is horrible, and if any of these gang members are psychopaths or sociopaths, they should not just be forgiven for what they've done.

Funny thing is, I even find the language all wrong. Holding? Defending? Absolving? Forgiving?

That's not the point.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, November 5, 2009 4:00 AM (P)

I once wrote a paper (under a surname) on learned sociopathy as a defense mechanism and how that devolves within the institution of public school and creates, as some say... "monsters".

They learn it by emulating the successful and powerful people in our society, and once that path is trained in so deeply, it becomes the path of least resistance for them, especially the earlier they learned it.

That's DIFFERENT from someone born with a misfire, it's something treatable, but the earlier you get to it, the better chance of fixing it - especially if you don't amplify it by chemical suppression, causing an isometric escalation of the behavior.

The real irony of that paper, which was recieved about as well as you'd expect by folks who'll look for ANY excuse that doesn't involve their own complicity in the mess...

Was that I wrote the damn thing when I was thirteen and seeing the exact things I was writing of from point blank range every single day.

-Frem
"Your grievance shall be avenged!"

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, November 5, 2009 4:42 AM (P)

Kathy

Quote:

The statistics re those who are in jail are pretty indicative that abuse does tend to lead to abusers.

not really. 1) abuse is very common among the non-criminal, and 2) playing up sympathy is the defense attorney's job.

Sig,

School. Also, listen to your inner Wulf. He may be wrong, or at least overly intense, but he's not 100% wrong. You're suggestion, when you add Wulfoid skepticism, results in Frem's world view, which is not that far off. The problem is that

1) yes, you're correct, we should design such a society... but
2) History has proven 100,000 times that peace society is fine until it meets violent society which kills it.

Any society with a better design plan will need to be able to defend itself. I just disagree that this defense will be guns in school. I don't actually see guns in my vision of the future, but I definitely do see their point.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, November 5, 2009 5:39 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
That's not to say people shouldn't be held responsible for their actions, that being abused as a child should be used as a defense - that's not what the author is saying either.
Quote:
That doesn't absolve them of the damage they cause to other people. Rape is horrible, and if any of these gang members are psychopaths or sociopaths, they should not just be forgiven for what they've done.
Funny thing is, I even find the language all wrong. Holding? Defending? Absolving? Forgiving?

That's not the point.

I'm not sure I follow you.

I made damn sure that I don't ever forgive the shit I've done, and I'm a better person for it.

...I think.

Anyway, I wasn't talking about all that in the sense of punishment, 'cause I don't think that works.

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 5, 2009 2:26 PM (P)

Huh.

Okay, I see a big difference that needs explanation and prolly more thought. Guilt and forgiveness, punishment and reward, behavior and modification. They're not always tied together.

The question is: how do we modify violent criminal behavior?

Most of us are constrained by guilt and some of us are constrained by fear, but that constraint requires a number of mental processes.

1) You have to be able to put yourself in another's shoes. But if you're like my daughter, who is brain-blind to different points of view, you'll lack that capacity. (BTW- she doesn't lack sympathy. If someone is hurting, right in front of her, she responds.)

2) You have to remember the past. Some peeps don't. Nuff said.

3) You have to be able to project the future. Children younger than about five, and people who're brain-damaged (again, like my daughter) lack the capacity.

4) You have to be able to learn from pain. According to Rue, sociopaths don't. They don't even apply it to themselves.

5) You have to acknowledge a social hierarchy.

Guilt is a complex emotion. It doesn't work for many people for a variety of reasons. The MAIN reason, I believe, is that most people with PTSD... basically, people who've been abused when young and/or grew up in life-threatening circumstances... often don't even care about themselves. Its that nihilistic POV which says - when you confront a gang-banger wannabe with the horror they are creating- I don't think I'm gonna live past 25 anyway and I don't care. But, as I listed, there are many other reasons why guilt (which is self-punishment) and punishment don't work.

You'd think... wouldn't you?... that if you had to spend a week in jail, much less a year... that you'd do everything in your power not to repeat the experience! The mistake that people make is that they keep projecting themselves and their responses on others. But if you look at the recidivism rate of violent criminals, it's CLEAR that punishment doesn't work for them!

I had to take a parenting class bc my dd was so terribly ADHD when young. I had to learn that I couldn't treat her like a "normal" kid because her responses weren't "normal": ADHD kids crave attention and excitement, even punishment, if that's the only attention they get. We had to modify her behavior through reward. And yanno what??? In my experience as a parent, as a supervisor AND as an employer, reward works quite well.

Anyway, my point is that while punishment and self-punishment work for a lot of people... I daresay even most... they don't work for everybody, and if you want to modify violent criminal behavior you have to look for a new paradigm. Something not involving guilt and forgiveness

BYTEMITE

Thursday, November 5, 2009 3:47 PM (P)

I think perhaps you're right, and my word choice wasn't the best, so I'll explain what I meant better. You have to remember that I'm coming from the place of once having violent, psychopathic tendencies myself, and I can be harsh in my self-assessment.

What I meant by "not forgiving" myself is more I think that it's important to keep a record of behaviour so that certain patterns that might indicate relapse can be observed.

Unfortunately, in keeping this record, and notifying people close to the person in question, you also risk alienating people who have difficulty integrating in society in the first place. Their problems can also come with a potential stigma in regards to getting jobs and them rebuilding their lives.

This is a very difficult issue for a person with violent and psychopathic tendencies to discuss, because at least in some of us there's some concern about rejection. Some of us respond by deciding to not care what others think and pre-emptively becoming defensive about it, which is itself an aspect of psychopathy, while some us just try to keep it secret.

So far, I've found that the best way for a recovering psychopath to try to address this problem is to admit their past history by notifying any people they may have long-term contact with. By being willing to warn people in advance of the possibility of relapse, not as a threat, but rather out of responsibility or even concern, this helps foster trust and can also allow the person to get help if they're showing signs of relapsing before they do something bad.

Of course, there's also problems with this. Psychopathic sex offenders who move into a neighborhood I've heard are required to give a door-to-door notice. As far as I know, this is an example of where the notification is necessary, but damages the rehabilitation of the individual by alienating them further. In a better world, no one would commit sex-related offenses, because in the case of rape, it's pretty much inexcusable. Prevention also has to be a key element in the fabric here.

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 5, 2009 4:11 PM (P)

DT hopefully this will catch you b4 you go on hiatus

Quote:
1) yes, you're correct, we should design such a society... but
2) History has proven 100,000 times that peace society is fine until it meets violent society which kills it.
Any society with a better design plan will need to be able to defend itself. I just disagree that this defense will be guns in school. I don't actually see guns in my vision of the future, but I definitely do see their point.

Which is why its important to acknowledge the societies at Mohenjo-Daro, on Thera, and centered around Caral. As far as archeology can tell, none of these civilizations were violent or warlike: they lacked ramparts, armories and the like. Also, apparently, they lacked slums. And as far as archeology can determine, they lasted several hundreds of years and were NEVER overtaken by war... no charring, no mass burials etc. They were apparently felled environmental changes: river bed shifting (Mohenjo-Dar and sister cities), catastrophic volcano (Thera), and deforestation (Caral and sister cities).

Also, game theory suggests that once a certain threshold is reached, cooperation is self-sustaining.

What you think of as "defense" I think of as "feedback". HOW do you build in sufficient feedback- both positive and negative- to make the society responsive to changing circumstances, both internal and external? Feedback can come in a number of ways... a million people taking one step, or 10,000 people going the ultimate distance. Violence is not always necessary... possibly, it is NEVER necessary.

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 5, 2009 4:16 PM (P)

BYTE: Hmm... there's definitely history there... which I'm certain you don't care to share any further. But that gives me insight into your POV.

I think the idea that we're both tending towards is acknowledge and accept.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, November 5, 2009 4:36 PM (P)

Yes, that's a good way to put it. I think that acknowledgment of a violent history and concerned vigilance would help prevent relapses, and that acceptance is ultimately what would help rehabilitation. Alienation results in defensiveness, which can then bring psychopathic tendencies back out. Acceptance fosters trust, which comes hard to psychopaths, and also calms the feeling that one is under attack and needs to lash back out.

Violent thoughts or imaginings can't always be repressed, but the psychopath can learn how to not act on them despite how gratifying the imagined violence can feel. To be honest, I'm not sure so much if the imaginings are less an element of my psychopathy and more an element of psychosis in my case, but I decided to consider them related because they could result in a psychopathic reaction, and I prefer to treat this as the worst case scenario to cover any risks.

The important thing to remember is that not every psychopath is at the same level of progress. I never really had the psychopathic tendency to manipulate people, to consider everyone an enemy and/or a sucker to be taken advantage of, I was mostly just violent and antisocial. And over the years, I managed to develop an ability to feel regret and to empathize with other people. If I find myself imagining violence, I become disturbed because I can now recognize right and wrong and that I would be hurting people, which I don't want to do.

There are some people who still have yet to develop to this degree. I'm not sure how to help them because I'm not entirely sure how *I* snapped out of my psychopathic behaviour patterns.

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 5, 2009 4:46 PM (P)

BYTE: It seems to me that you're one of the most consistently reasonable people here. I'm not sure I could put in that effort. Hell, I have a hard time controlling my snarkiness.

RUE

Thursday, November 5, 2009 5:02 PM (P)

Byte

A study was done many years ago on people in jail and their siblings, but sadly, never followed up on.

As I recall people were divided up into four groups - consistently violent, episodically violent, NEVER violent (as I recall, they really did mean never - never once did anyone recall that the person was violent, even as a very young child), and the fourth group - I forget, unfortunately.

The person who did the study was extremely careful to get good results - and what he did was to get hair samples and run mineral profiles on them. The four groups did completely and cleanly divide up into separate quadrants on a chart, depending on the various concentrations of minerals in their hair (lead, calcium, magnesium, sodium, potassium etc). What I recall of the chart was that there was not even a near overlap between groups. They were completely distinct.

It may be that there are people such as yourself, who are wholly capable of empathy, but who are (episodically) subject to violent reactions under particular stresses - especially ones that get interpreted as a threat to survival. And those situations are learned, so that while they may not actually BE a physical threat, the emotions react as if it was.

I'm glad to know that you got past that, and that you are working toward stability, happiness and peace.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, November 5, 2009 5:09 PM (P)

I honestly used to be a lot like Wulf, at least in the wanting to take down evil and be heroic sense. I considered myself a champion of sorts, getting revenge and hurting people who hurt me or the few people who I possessively considered to be my friends. I imagined the world to be against them, and me, my violence was directionless.

When I came to my senses, it was a rather extreme shift, and there were some unusual circumstances involved.

You mentioned nihilism, I suppose I still have some of those tendencies, since I mentioned earlier that I WOULD try to run in and break up the gang. And I'd probably do so violently, rather than thinking about the gang members or that I'm hurting them, possibly even crippling them, because I can be vicious and brutal.

But now I do normally try to understand other people's perspectives. When I stop thinking as other people as people, I've learned to catch myself, and force myself to consider their perspective.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, November 5, 2009 5:37 PM (P)

Could be, and the minerals thing is intriguing. Was lead found to be a major component in violent behaviour? That could suggest impacts from not just the social environment, but the environment in general.

The weird thing is, I was never really had to deal with any survival situations. Sometimes I felt emotionally neglected, but never was actually really in any condition I could consider actual neglect, or a betrayal of trust, or traumatizing. When I imagine violence I'm not drawing from past experiences (though I used to get into a lot of pretty serious fights), but rather more constantly analyzing my environment for potential threats and how I would respond.

RUE

Thursday, November 5, 2009 5:52 PM (P)

Byte

It was so long ago that I don't remember the specifics - but yes, lead factored into it. As I recall, what the researcher did was ratio certain minerals that are known to act in opposition biochemically: lead to calcium (or the other way around); sodium : potassium; and I forget the others.

Yes, love which is WITHHELD could be a factor - children live by their ability to affect the parents - to elicit care. Children who are made to feel excluded from what COULD be available can react as if their lives are threatened.
This is opposed to families where, for example, everyone gets treated like shit. Or where no one gets love. In some ways that is easier.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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