Grammar Rocks

POSTED BY: maugwai
UPDATED: Saturday, October 30, 2004 01:32
VIEWED: 19742
PAGE 1 of 1

MAUGWAI

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 1:28 PM

Okay, so that I don't go nuts and start correcting the grammar of every post I see and really piss people off, I decided to put all my general grammar observations in one post. This way, grammar nerds can vent, and non-native English speakers - and for that matter, grammar-challenged English speakers - can learn a thing or two about the language. I know we had a similar pet peeve thread not too long ago, but I thought it was time for a review.

1) a lot (not alot)
2) An apostrophe means only two things - posession or contraction - never to pluralize. To pluralize, you add and "s" or "es" as in "dogs"
3) Stop putting quotes around everything! As in "God" bless America. That implies that you do not actually believe in God. Okay, maybe that's one I saw on a bumper sticker and not here, but still. It's annoying.
4) The assault weapons band was repealed, not appealed.

Feel free to add your own grammatical errors at will.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

RHYMEPHILE

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 1:36 PM

Ooh, ooh, may I? <-- look how proper I am!

5) Your/You're The latter is used as a contraction of "you are." That's the only time you use it.

6) Further/Farther Further is degree, as in "I must push myself further to win." Farther is distance. "Go a little farther down the road."

7) Like alot, alright is a non-standard use of "all right." That means, it looks weird when it's used a hundred times in a large, professional novel by, say, author Laurell K. Hamilton, scourge of proper spelling and grammar believers everywhere.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

UNCHARTEDOUTLAW

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 2:16 PM

Where do I start? :) I teach high school English and I am convinced the Internet will be the death of the English language. All the various misuses of "their/there/they're". Oh yeah, and people who write "should of" instead of "should have".

Simply evil.

-Taylor

Uncharted Outlaw!
"The secret is understanding time."
See my Firefly Store: http://www.cafepress.com/NorCalRiviera

CYBERSNARK

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 2:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by maugwai:
2) An apostrophe means only two things - posession or contraction - never to pluralize. To pluralize, you add and "s" or "es" as in "dogs"

Corollary to (2): Possessive "its" has no apostrophe.
it's = it is
its = belonging to it

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

SHINYSEVEN

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:17 PM

Can't help it...

WILLOW:Why would anybody want to...oh.

CHANNAIN

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by maugwai:
Okay, so that I don't go nuts and start correcting the grammar of every post I see and really piss people off...

Heck, I do that all the time. I do it in the Gunrunners RP, and for every post I reply to. Just because the person who initiated the post is using bad grammar doesn't mean I have to. A girl has to have her principles, right?

In fact, if I sinned grammatically, let me know!

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am.
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

EST120

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by maugwai:
Feel free to add your own grammatical errors at will.

not really a grammar thing, but the phrase "i could not care less." most often, people seem to write or say "i could care less". i feel this is not as strong a statement (though not necessarily incorrect). this phrase is most often used to imply that something is so utterly unimportant to you that it ranks as the absolute, dead last thing on your mind. thus, there is nothing else that you care less about. so saying, "i could care less" says that there IS something else you care less about and the topic at hand is NOT the bottom of the list. it seems natural to think that "i could not" or "i couldn't care less" is the more appropriate statement.

HELL'S KITTEN

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 10:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
Quote:
Originally posted by maugwai:
Okay, so that I don't go nuts and start correcting the grammar of every post I see and really piss people off...
Heck, I do that all the time. I do it in the Gunrunners RP, and for every post I reply to.

Channain, Channain, Channain.... A preposition is a bad thing to end a sentence with.

MELEAUX

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 10:21 PM

The error that most gets my dander up is not very often a printed mistake but in conversation. Double negatives " I don't got no more bannanas." If you don't got NO bannanas then you have SOME! Also a local pronunciation of ASK- as AXE. "she axed me to go with her" It makes me literally cringe.

She understands, she doesn't comprehend

CHANNAIN

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 11:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hell's Kitchen
Channain, Channain, Channain.... A preposition is a bad thing to end a sentence with.

See, that's the good thing about practicing good grammar in other situations. When you screw up like that, those who don't know any better can't see it. On the upside, at least I spelled it "to" and not "two" or "too"... hey is there a "teux"? And if so, did I just swear?

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am.
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

DRE

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 12:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by UnchartedOutlaw:
Where do I start? :) I teach high school English and I am convinced the Internet will be the death of the English language. All the various misuses of "their/there/they're". Oh yeah, and people who write "should of" instead of "should have".

Simply evil.

-Taylor

AMEN.

My peeves (being an english major and strong linguistically):
-People ending with prepositions.
-Incorrect relative pronouns (big on 'who' and 'whom')
-'should of' really gets my goat
-Every misspelled common word I see (mostly from younger, chat-room goers): blame, two, too, yours, you're, &c ad nauseam,
-and a the whole 'u r', 'ur', 'y not?', 'thnx'. I mean, for God's sake, it's only a few more letters! Is life THAT important that you must shortcut through normal dialogue and just look bad? I -can- understand to a degree of foreigners who do it (English is a pain to learn, though I think it's much more a grammar issue than spelling), but when I see a whole paragraph written on a subject using 'u' and 'u r' and 'y i cant do this' it just makes me not care about what you writing in the first place.

Now, I don't neccessarily mean to put down people, it's more a frustration with not using all that potential and brainpower we as human beings have.

And I'm not gonna totally nitpick people. A lot of stuff has worked into our vernacular and even I type with 'gonna' and 'c'mon' sometimes when I feel it fits the conversational tone. Different from seeing pages of..bad... sentences.

My biggest pain: "I am me", etc. It is "I am I," and "It was I who started the fire," respectively.

I'm done venting.

IKIYO

DRE

LISSA

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 12:32 AM

ok, i'm a huge grammar freak myself, and i'm pretty damn good at it, at least in comparison to my classmates, but when i'm online after a long day of classes in which perfect grammar is neccessary, i'm not gonna use what's left of my brainpower to write in perfect english. i don't mean this as an attack on you guys so much as an apology;) oh, and i'm totally with u on the whole "should of" thing. i mean, what is that? lol! and if i ever do stuff like use the wrong form of their, there, or they're (same goes for to, two, and too), just know that it's because my brain has shut down for the day. those mistakes actually drive me INSANE because i know that i know what the correct form is, but the reader won't. argh! so ya, my head hurts. i'm done.

~lissa, spwhore

LISSA

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 12:34 AM

oh, also, i have to say i'm pretty appalled at the grammar at bu. i mean, it's not that hard to write a sentence that is gramatically correct...or maybe it's just me...

~lissa, spwhore

GORDONCOMSTOCK

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 12:51 AM

A few things terribly wrong with this thread:

First, a lot of what's being mentioned here are not grammar problems, but spelling problems. There's a significant difference, which I have to point out because what I'm about to say does not apply to the perfectly valid spelling complaints that have been made here.

But, as for grammar . . . I highly recommend you all read Steven Pinker's renowned linguistics tome The Language Instinct, particularly Chapter 12, "The Language Mavens". He takes on the whole notion of prescriptive grammatical rules -- that is, rules describing how people, according to some ass who thinks he knows best, "ought" to talk, as opposed to what linguists are concerned with, descriptive rules, which describe how people do talk. To a linguist, if a certain syntax is used and understood it is grammatical. No question about it.

Pinker goes on to confront some of the very alleged "incorrect" grammar mentioned by persons here. The most obviously ridiculous of the prescriptive rules are rules invented in the 18th century by people who thought English would be better if it was more like Latin. In Latin, it is impossible to end a sentence with a preposition, even if you wanted to, and still make sense. English has no such problem, but the 18th century classicists were so convinced that Latin was the ideal language, they imposed the rule on English anyway. Through the education system, this ridiculous "rule" has been propagated throughout the centuries. Not that many people tend to obey it, and they're all the better for it. Imagine actually trying to never end an English sentence with a preposition. It would drive you right insane.

The same history applies to the split-infinitives "rule", but that hasn't actually been mentioned here. Guess because this isn't a Star Trek forum.

Pinker also address "I could care less", pointed out what English teachers everywhere have somehow failed to grasp. "I could care less" is sarcastic. Just compare the inflection used when the lines are spoken, and you can tell: I couldn't care less versus I could care less.

He also debunks the notion that a double-negative makes a positive, pointing out that double-negatives are the norm in hundreds of languages, and was even the norm in Middle English. For example, in French: Je ne sais pas -- "ne" and "pas" are both negative, "pas" simply agrees with the negated verb. The same thing is actually done in Standard English, only using supposedly positive words like "any" -- but if you take the negative out of

I didn't buy any lottery tickets.

leaving the "any" in, you don't get a positive statement, you get nonsense ("I bought any lottery tickets.") What "any" does there, "no" does in "I didn't buy no lottery tickets".

Grammar rocks, yes, but not when it's made up.

ZENCAT

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 3:23 AM

I'm an editor by day, and I spend way too much time arguing with my fellow editors about rules of grammar. (I am, of course, always right.) The rule about never ending an English sentence with a preposition would make the construction of some sentences simply too awkward to easily understand. As Gordon pointed out, it's a result of stubbornly forcing Latin rules on English.

Me, I like to use ain't, and then defend it when people correct me. Ain't, although archaic, is the proper (and only) contraction of "am not". It's correct to say "I ain't listening to you" but not correct to say "you ain't listening to me." But I think the first-person-singular part of the usage faded away well before usage of the word mysteriously became an error all by itself. Funny how language changes.

EBONEZER

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 3:33 AM

You guys do have valiad points. My grammar sucks, I'll be the first to admit. (What the hell is a prepasition anyway?) My spelling is worse. I'd like to apologize for this. But, in my defence, this is a dissusion board, and I write the same way that I talk, more or less, and I don't talk with pefect grammar so why should I type with it.

Sure, good grammar is definatly important, just not so much here.

Although, I'll definatly agree with you about everybody using 'u' and 'ur' and for some reason 'lol' really pisses me off, although I'm not sure why...And yeah, people need to learn the difference between your and you're and they're, their, and there.

-----------------------------------

Four out of five dentists reccomend calling Ebo a girl.

GORDONCOMSTOCK

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 3:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zencat:
Me, I like to use ain't, and then defend it when people correct me. Ain't, although archaic, is the proper (and only) contraction of "am not".

Not the only. "Amn't", though entirely out of use now, has cropped up from time to time.

JCPRICE

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 3:49 AM

Hi all,

gotta love grammar.

What is it though?
A set of official prescribed rules?
A way of structuring words to effectively convey meaning in a given context?
A combination of the two?
Something else entirely?

I'm not a linguist. However, I would have to argue that the idea of a language is a social construct that is recreated in and defined in every act of communication. Grammar is a subset of generalisable rules that can be built up from individual communication acts.

In essence, what people agree is grammar, is grammar.

New languages and rules are constantly being generated to distinguish forms of speech. It's not pure laziness. Subcultures generate their own rules of speech, writing, dress, etc to distinguish themselves.

Contractions used in text messaging are both a practical outgrowth of low typing speeds, the desire to save time, *and* the imperative to create distinctive forms of communication.

How do you recognise old farts in a chat room? They refuse to use contractions and try to correct peoples' grammar.

That said. I'm with you guys!

Number one pet peeve: posessive apostrophes and their misapplication!

Btw, is the smiley face a new form of grammatical mark? ;)

jason

DINGOACTION

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 4:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by UnchartedOutlaw:
Where do I start? :) I teach high school English and I am convinced the Internet will be the death of the English language.

We actually had a fairly fascinating (in my mind, anyway) discussion about this in my digital rhetoric class. We were talking about how freshman writing classes now have kids look at what they consider writing, and how they never include instant messaging in their list. And yet, it has profoundly shaped the way they write.

I'd like to defend my age group here, or at least me, and point out we were victims of the 'creative spelling' movement back in second grade. I can't spell worth crap, so I do apologize for that. But I capitalize 'I,' which is my pet peeve.

Also, as now seems as good a place as any to ask, could someone please tell me when to use "talked to" vs. "spoke with?" Or when you tack on the prepositions (prepositions? the 'to' and 'with') does it not matter which one you use? It's always bugged me.

--
That summabitch deserves an emmy!

NEUTRINOLAD

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 6:10 AM

I think part of the fun of Firefly boards is to try to write in the vernacular of the show as much as possible, as opposed to corresponding in a a forum for my professional colleagues. I suppose I have different rules for each context.

That being said, it has nothing to do with grammar, but reading things like,

Quote:
In essence, what people agree is grammar, is grammar.

is a tautology, and quickly leads to Humpty-Dumptyism, one of my own pet peeves.

I also have an adverse reaction to things like, "We'll alter the plan as needed, going forward." I call these MBAisms, as it seems to be people with advanced business degrees who spew such nonsense. Or maybe they have a method of time travel into the past of which I am unaware?

RUXTON

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 7:55 AM

O how I love this thread!

First, no one has yet mentioned the glaring errors in the very first post, by Maugwai, under his number 4), he has, "The assault weapons band...." Should be, "The assault-weapons ban...."

Note the added hypen, and corrected spelling.
(Sorry, Maug. It's the curse of being an editor.)
================================
DRE, you said:
"...it just makes me not care about what you (are) writing in the first place."

I wholly agree. If only folks UNDERSTOOD this! So many try to make an important point, but their poor-to-nonexistent writing skills makes them look utterly foolish, at least to those who have a basic grasp of our language. And the folks who know better are often the ones the writer is trying to reach.

I suspect some of the need to speak and write precisely comes from the British class system. One didn't mess with commoners, much less "scrubbers" if one was of the higher classes there, and language quickly gave (and gives) away the person's status. Naturally this came to the U.S. at an early date. Whether or not we want it, there are classes here also, and the top classes of persons generally speak and write better than "commoners."

I think there's a musical analogy here also. A complicated piece of music may be played well or poorly on, say, a piano or classical guitar. If we wish to communicate precisely and clearly, we need to practice the instrument; and whenever we play it, we need to strive for perfection. Anything less gives results that are just too sloppy to be taken seriously.

.......Ruxton

BARNEYT

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 7:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by NeutrinoLad:
I think part of the fun of Firefly boards is to try to write in the vernacular of the show as much as possible, as opposed to corresponding in a a forum for my professional colleagues. I suppose I have different rules for each context.

That being said, it has nothing to do with grammar, but reading things like,

Quote:
In essence, what people agree is grammar, is grammar.

is a tautology, and quickly leads to Humpty-Dumptyism, one of my own pet peeves.

I also have an adverse reaction to things like, "We'll alter the plan as needed, going forward." I call these MBAisms, as it seems to be people with advanced business degrees who spew such nonsense. Or maybe they have a method of time travel into the past of which I am unaware?

There's a brilliant book by Bill Bryson called 'Troublesome Words', which I recommend to anyone who is interested in the language and looking for a good giggle! As an example, he points out that advance planning is a pointless phrase since all planning is in advance...

I'm someone who's picky about correctness in writing, but I'm hampered by the fact that I was taught English at school by teachers who couldn't spell, and I was never actually taught grammar at all...

On a board like this, it doesn't bother me so much - for one thing, a lot of spelling mistakes can be put down to people typing their thoughts very quickly and not reviewing what they've written. I'm forever typing you're instead of your, don't know why - it's just the way my fingers hit the keys!

Outside in the real world though, it annoys the hell out of me to see professional signs created that use apostrophes in the wrong place, or official documents with spelling mistakes (trivia note: the immigration waiver form that you have to fill in to get into the US from the UK on holiday has a mistake in it). I mean, don't these people proof-read?

---
"I think the right place to start is to say, fair is fair. This is who we are. These are our numbers." Mr Willis of Ohio - The West Wing

CALHOUN

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 9:52 AM

My grammar is far from perfect though I must point out yet another glaring error in the original post.

Quote:
maugwai wrote:
Tuesday, October 26, 2004 03:28

To pluralize, you add and "s" or "es" as in "dogs"

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

GROUNDED

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 10:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by NeutrinoLad:

Quote:
In essence, what people agree is grammar, is grammar.

is a tautology, and quickly leads to Humpty-Dumptyism, one of my own pet peeves.

For anyone who, like me, needed to look these up:

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Tautology
http://www.pseudodictionary.com/word.php?id=16012

BARNEYT

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:
My grammar is far from perfect though I must point out yet another glaring error in the original post.

Quote:
maugwai wrote:
Tuesday, October 26, 2004 03:28

To pluralize, you add and "s" or "es" as in "dogs"

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

*chortle* isn't it always the way - never a typo in sight until you comment on someone else's writing. Which is why I nearly always chicken out from doing it!

---
"I think the right place to start is to say, fair is fair. This is who we are. These are our numbers." Mr Willis of Ohio - The West Wing

MAUGWAI

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 12:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:
O how I love this thread!

First, no one has yet mentioned the glaring errors in the very first post, by Maugwai, under his number 4), he has, "The assault weapons band...." Should be, "The assault-weapons ban...."

.......Ruxton

Well, crap. I'm irked that I didn't catch that, or the missing period. That's actually one thing that always throws me - the use of periods in or out of quotation marks.

But that brings us to another interesting grammatical conundrum of the internet. The anonymity makes it difficult to tell gender. I am a "she".

And I'll throw as many stones as I want, thank you very much. It's my thread.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

CALHOUN

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 1:51 PM

Quote:
maugwai wrote:
Wednesday, October 27, 2004 02:26

But that brings us to another interesting grammatical conundrum of the internet. The anonymity makes it difficult to tell gender. I am a "she".

Hehe Maugwai,

I suspected you were a female.

The nagging about trivial grammatical discrepencies...

Hehe, only kidding, i'm not really a sexist.

NEUTRINOLAD

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 7:02 PM

Quote:
I suspected you were a female.

The nagging about trivial grammatical discrepencies...

I just realized, when I look for someone to proofread my work I default to women.

Maybe I am sexist.

Or maybe the women I know are better read than the men I know.

MANIACNUMBERONE

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 7:17 PM

It's fun to point out grammatical errors. If we were pointing out spelling errors too, I'd have a little to say about your initial post, maugwai.

-------------------------------------------
Inara: Who's winning?
Simon: I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
-------------------------------------------

CHANNAIN

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 7:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zencat:
I'm an editor by day, and I spend way too much time arguing with my fellow editors about rules of grammar. (I am, of course, always right.) The rule about never ending an English sentence with a preposition would make the construction of some sentences simply too awkward to easily understand.

I was an editor for three years--feeling your pain. What's good, though, is the fits of giggles editors get into over the dumbest things while the writers stand by and go, "to whubba who?"

I wrote "for every post I reply to." in here just recently, and someone caught me. So I've been trying to come up with a better way to write that sentence and so far nothing has come to me that I can't say without hearing it in an English accent. My English accent is the queen's too, so you can understand the scary.

The one word I take exception with - that I think should be blatantly outlawed - is WHASSUP!!! Why? Because it's not a word! It's a gutteral sound not unlike a really long obnoxious burp which is disgusting, but serves a purpose, right?

I don't really care if it takes less keystrokes to put an ampersand in place of the word "and" - just stop!

Oh, and the folks who have started using the "@" symbol irreverently - "call me @ 4:30 @ my home phone" are starting to work on my last nerve too.

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am.
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

RUXTON

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 8:56 PM

Channain, Gotcha!
Your "...if it takes less keystrokes...."
Should be: "...if it takes fewer keystrokes...."
========================
I had an argument with a fellow (male) editor some years back, concerning the use of the term "late."

One of use wanted to say something like, "He was out walking with the late Mr. Jones."
The other went for, "He was out walking with Mr. Jones, now dead."

Thoughts, please.
========================
Channain, Instead of "Whassup," I noted the use of " 'Tsup?" by Selma Blair in her short-lived TV comedy series (with Lex Luthor-to-be). But I've noticed that most folks have no idea what you've just said when this word is used in real life.
========================
Anyone notice the increase of apparent dyslexia with advancing age (over 30)? I find myself inverting letters as I type, with apparent increasing frequency. And omitting the last letter quite ofte.

..........Ruxton
[Male; editor by profession; cranky old fart by choice.]

MANIACNUMBERONE

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 9:02 PM

It's also a good thing that we aren't evaluating punctuation.

Quote:
I had an argument with a fellow (male) editor some years back, concerning the use of the term "late." Also this was very funny... "And omitting the last letter quite ofte."

LOL

-------------------------------------------
Inara: Who's winning?
Simon: I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
-------------------------------------------

RUXTON

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 9:06 PM

ManiacNumberOne

If you mean I ought to have inserted a comma before "late," you are incorrect.

..........Ruxton

CHANNAIN

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 9:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:
Channain, Gotcha!
Your "...if it takes less keystrokes...."
Should be: "...if it takes fewer keystrokes...."

Anyone notice the increase of apparent dyslexia with advancing age (over 30)? I find myself inverting letters as I type, with apparent increasing frequency. And omitting the last letter quite often.

"Less" versus "fewer" might be why I'm not an editor anymore. A girl can twist her brain around it for only so long. I'm MUCH better at catching that kind of thing in other people's work; hence the pursuit of a degree in graphic design, not English or creative writing.

My fellow editors had a huge debate over whether it should be "over the last year" or "during the past year". "During" won, but by a teensy margin.

Regarding the 30-plus dyslexia, I am with you there! I canNOT type the third "n" in announcement to save my soul, especially in an e-mail. I don't know why, and I can't stop it. I did it just fine here, but my typing speed went WAY down.

T'sup sounds like an acronym for "To sup" as in "to have supper". Nope, still don't like it.

So, anybody in here doing beta reading for the fan fic writers in our happy little blue realm?

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am.
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

MAUGWAI

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 9:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
It's fun to point out grammatical errors. If we were pointing out spelling errors too, I'd have a little to say about your initial post, maugwai.

-------------------------------------------
Inara: Who's winning?
Simon: I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
-------------------------------------------

By all means, don't hold back. That's the point of the thread. What spelling error? Unless you're talking about my name, I'm not sure what else you could possibly mean.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

RUXTON

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 11:37 PM

Channain,
"T'sup sounds like an acronym for "To sup" as in "to have supper". Nope, still don't like it."
Ah! That's why, whenever I used "T'sup?" most people asked me, "T'son?" (i.e., What's on?)

I could never figure that out, 'til now.
--------------
re: "Over the past year," vs. "During...."
I suspect it's a regional preference.

I note with great grinding of teeth, almost everyone in the Buffy/Angel/Firefly 'verse pronounces "either" as though it were spelled "Ii-ther" (long 'i'). I have always pronounced it "eee-ther." Anyone else find this odd? Is it a Hollywood thing?

CHANNAIN

Thursday, October 28, 2004 2:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:
I note with great grinding of teeth, almost everyone in the Buffy/Angel/Firefly 'verse pronounces "either" as though it were spelled "Ii-ther" (long 'i'). I have always pronounced it "eee-ther." Anyone else find this odd? Is it a Hollywood thing?

I suspect it's an English thing, as in the Queen, not as in grammar. EYE-tha rather than EE-ther. Like THEE-a-tah and theadder.

dong ma?

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am.
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

ZENCAT

Thursday, October 28, 2004 3:48 AM

Since you asked (axed) for thoughts... I don't see anything wrong with saying "the late Mr. Jones" but I wouldn't use "Mr. Jones, now dead." (I was taught never to say someone was DEAD, it's too disturbing.) "Mr. Jones, now deceased" works, though.

"Whassup" isn't even a word, dang it.

I've never heard anyone use "amn't" ever, ever. Awkward contraction. Have you ever noticed how awkward the word awkward is??

I haven't noticed increasing dyslexia so much as a tendency to insert extra vowels. I'll glance up at what I've typed and find extra "o"s strewn throughout. Oh, but a little dyslexia in consistently typing University as Unviersity.

Uh... topic... Firefly. Boy, I like that there grammar on Firefly. I especially like the litotes - affirming a thing by denying its opposite, as in Mal's "You ain't wrong." I especially like it because how often do I get to use the word "litotes"??

RUXTON

Thursday, October 28, 2004 6:41 AM

Zencat, thanks for insight on "...now dead," etc. When the argument was ongoing, I voted with you for "the late Mr. Jones." The other guy thought it sounded like walking with a dead guy.
---------
Awk! It is awkward.
---------------------
On a new note, a few years ago everyone was using the single word "not" as a cutesy response, borrowed from that movie with Dana Carvey (The Church Lady) in it, the one with Mike Meyers. Yet Carvey used the word only twice in the movie, as I recall, and used it correctly. Louis L'Amour was fond of the same archaic construction, as in, "He liked it not." All Carvey did was delay the last word. Yet for years, one heard bozo after clown after dumbell trying to be cute by uttering that word out of context. (Yup, I've seen that chool moovy. Ain't I good! Not!)

Drove me nuts.
------------------------
Apropos of nothing, many think Sherlock Holmes smoked a calabash, or other bent pipe. But at the time Conan Doyle wrote, all pipes were dead straight. (Like billiards, Dublins, etc.) An actor (before Basil Rathbone) used a bent pipe in some performance in the 1920s or early 1930s, and then Rathbone used a calabash, and the die was cast.

Had to get that out of my system. Yes, it's late at night.

RUXTON

Thursday, October 28, 2004 6:54 AM

Channain

But the use of Eye-tha (actually, they say Eye-ther) seems to be confined to Joss' universe.
And thanks for the improved phonetic spelling.

Ma.

...........Ruxton

BARNEYT

Thursday, October 28, 2004 8:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
My fellow editors had a huge debate over whether it should be "over the last year" or "during the past year". "During" won, but by a teensy margin.

My thinking on this would be that it's context-dependent. If you're talking about the effect something has had over the period of the entire year (desperately trying to think of a useful example, but can't!) then it'd be 'over the last year', but if you're talking about something that's happened several times in the year then it'd be 'during the last year'

Of course, as with almost any discussion of grammar and the English language, I know what I'm trying to say but it's probably meaningless to everyone else! I have the same problem when people try to explain the difference between 'because of' and 'due to'...

There's a line from Buffy that helps in these situations: "I think I speak for everyone here when I say, 'Huh?'"

---
"I think the right place to start is to say, fair is fair. This is who we are. These are our numbers." Mr Willis of Ohio - The West Wing

BARNEYT

Thursday, October 28, 2004 8:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:

So, anybody in here doing beta reading for the fan fic writers in our happy little blue realm?

Moving off the pedantry for a moment, it's been a while since I've been able to be a regular visitor to this board, but things are settling down a bit now. So, how does one volunteer to be picky about someone else's writing?

---
"I think the right place to start is to say, fair is fair. This is who we are. These are our numbers." Mr Willis of Ohio - The West Wing

GROUNDED

Thursday, October 28, 2004 10:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zencat:
Oh, but a little dyslexia in consistently typing University as Unviersity.

That's not dylexia - that's attempting to type a word quickly that you're not used to typing.

& another thing. Personally I don't use & but if you find it easier then why not? I'm often in the situation where I'm communicating with several people at once, through different program windows, and it's not always possible, or indeed useful, to type out each word. Of course composing a forum post is another matter but I don't think 'net shorthand should be dismissed entirely.

GOJIRO

Thursday, October 28, 2004 11:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:
Channain

But the use of Eye-tha (actually, they say Eye-ther) seems to be confined to Joss' universe.
And thanks for the improved phonetic spelling.

Ma.

...........Ruxton

I must live in Joss's universe, then!

(And it is "Joss's" not "Joss' " -- since we're talking about grammar and punctuation).

Actually, it's a regional thing. A lot of New Englanders say EYE-ther, especially the farther north you go.

While truly egregious spelling, punctuation, and grammar errors do tend to annoy me, I've come to accept it as just part of the territory ("But ya gotta know the TERRITORY! Whaddya talk, whaddya talk, whaddya talk, whaddya talk...").

The only thing that truly annoys me without fail is the people who ignore their shift keys. IE: "i am so pumped about this movie. joss is a god and my friend jane and i both love him to death." Come on, find the shift keys (conveniently located to the left of the Z key, as well as the right of the /? key). It makes it ever so easier to read your natterings, and the minimal extra effort it takes is well worth it.

For you hardcore linguists, I recommend Garner's A Dictionary of Modern American Usage. The introduction alone is worth the price of the book. Of course, if you're a truly hardcore linguist, you already own it.

gojiro

SHEPPARD

Thursday, October 28, 2004 12:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gojiro:
While truly egregious spelling, punctuation, and grammar errors do tend to annoy me, I've come to accept it as just part of the territory ("But ya gotta know the TERRITORY! Whaddya talk, whaddya talk, whaddya talk, whaddya talk...").

(LOL) Ever meet a fellow by the name of Hill?

UNCHARTEDOUTLAW

Thursday, October 28, 2004 12:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zencat:
Personally I don't use & but if you find it easier then why not?

Should I say it? Eh, what the heck! This sentence totally confused me for about four reads and I don't think it's the fact that it's 5.30am, I tell you what! <--I've seen a show about a guy named Hill.

Anyway, I just got a bunch of essays from my 10th and 11th graders. If I find any nuggets, I'll anonymously (for them, not me) post them here.

-Taylor

Uncharted Outlaw!

My ship's shiny than your ship. Now deal with it!

See my Firefly Store: http://www.cafepress.com/NorCalRiviera

SHINYHAPPYKLIN

Thursday, October 28, 2004 3:12 PM

There's a book called "Eats, Shoots & Leaves" that is on the best-sellers list now, and it is about the problems most people have with punctuation. I haven't read it, but want to. (hey, that's a preposition, isn't it? )

My biggest pet peeves? missplaced possessive apostrophe's (<--like that) instead of a simple "s" or "es".

I want to throw things when I read emails from my students that are rife with "u" and "ur", "dunno", and other horrid artifacts that carry over to formal compositions from IM usage. They just make my skin crawl!

"We gotta go to that crappy town where I'M a hero..."
Shiny stuff for Browncoats at: http://www.cafepress.com/outtotheblack

UNCHARTEDOUTLAW

Thursday, October 28, 2004 5:21 PM

There's also a book called English as a Second F*cking Language that's pretty darn funny!

-Taylor

The Uncharted Outlaw!
"I brought you some supper, but if you'd prefer a lecture, I've a few very catchy ones prepped...sin and hellfire... one has lepers."
See my Firefly Store: http://www.cafepress.com/NorCalRiviera

RUXTON

Thursday, October 28, 2004 8:29 PM

Gojiro,

Thanks for the regional clarification on Eye-ther vs. EE-ther.

BTW, three references tell me you are wrong about "Joss's" and I was right with "Joss' "

But I have some doubts. Can you name your reference? Mine are two "collegiate" dictionaries and a style manual. The problem seems to be with three "s's" in line.

Oh yes: The writer who wanted to say he/she didn't use an ampersand needs to learn punctuation to avoid all of us having to read his stuff 3x or 4x to figure out what he's/she's trying to say.

Another GREAT book on language is "The Writer's Art" by Kilpatrick.

.........Ruxton

GROUNDED

Thursday, October 28, 2004 8:33 PM

Sigh.

"& another thing. Personally I don't use & but if you find it easier then why not?"

It was supposed to be cute - read the preceding sentence in bold above. Of course it is necessary to have read the previous post mentioning ampersands...

Edit: Ok I just checked and there were about 10 posts between mine and the ampersand one so perhaps I was being a little oblique ;)

RUXTON

Friday, October 29, 2004 1:18 AM

Grounded:

Happens.

SHINY

Friday, October 29, 2004 3:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by meleaux:
Also a local pronunciation of ASK- as AXE. "she axed me to go with her" It makes me literally cringe.

Count me in as a cringer. My cable company (Comcast) keeps running these ads where the family pronounces picture as PITCHER.

Jayne, your mouth is talkin. Might want to look into that.

GOJIRO

Friday, October 29, 2004 3:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:
Gojiro,

Thanks for the regional clarification on Eye-ther vs. EE-ther.

BTW, three references tell me you are wrong about "Joss's" and I was right with "Joss' "

But I have some doubts. Can you name your reference? Mine are two "collegiate" dictionaries and a style manual. The problem seems to be with three "s's" in line.

.........Ruxton

Happy to oblige! My reference is the venerable and widely used Chicago Manual of Style (CMS), page 200, section 6.24 (to be precise).

It lists examples, one of which is "Ross's land" -- which is as close as you can get. There are exceptions to this rule, notably Greek names ("Euripides' plays") and religious figures ("Jesus' disciples" or "Moses' people"). While some have elevated Joss to godlike status, I doubt the populace at large would agree, and therefore the possessive form of his name should be spelled "Joss's".

Garner's A Dictionary of Modern American Usage also agrees with CMS. See page 509 of ADMAU.

That said, almost EVERYONE gets this wrong, so what makes the "rule"? I choose to go by the book, but others believe popular usage should dictate what's right. Personally, that's smacks of anarchy to me. But that's just me.

-------
Are you a Southern Ohio Browncoat? If so, join our Yahoo group for news and events: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly-ohio/

And if you're a Cincinnati Area Browncoat, join our meetup group at http://firefly.meetup.com/137/

RUXTON

Friday, October 29, 2004 5:50 AM

gojiro,

Thanks much. The only example I could find was in the "U.S. Gov't Printing Office Style Manual," which had "hostess' " as the only word with two final s's. Yours is the only example I've seen with two at the end of someone's name.

Unfortunately, style books tend to follow common usage, and thereby screw up the formalities of language along the way, all to the detriment of organized society and, as you suggested, plunge mightily toward anarchy. I don't like 'em.

Sadly, I have no access to your noted references. I am truly at the corner of No and Where, and all things come here by truck, when I choose to buy. But I'll keep an eye out for ADMAU.

Kwaheri

OBSESSED

Friday, October 29, 2004 7:11 AM

1) Capitalization
2) Run-on sentences
3) "I axed him a question." (Not unless you were interrogating him with a hatchet, you didn't.)
4) I don't mind the occasional spelling mistake on difficult words, but some of the things I see misspelled are just frightening. Genious, seperate, differant, becouse, etc.
5) The misuse of the word "literally" just irritates the hell out of me. "Firefly was so good, I was literally blown away." If you write this, you should either way less than 1/2 a pound, play with explosives, have trigger-happy friends, or have watched firefly in a hurricane. Otherwise, you were not "literally" blown away. (Although maybe you should be.....)
6) OK, this last one is a little different. Does anybody have a definitive spelling for goram, gorram, gorramn, gorran, whatever the hell it is? I keep seeing different spellings, and there must be someone out there with scripts to look at. If anyone knows, please post (with good grammar.)

Book: I'd forgotten - you're moonlighting as a criminal mastermind now.
Simon: No, but I'm thinking about growing a big black mustache. I'm a traditionalist.

BARNEYT

Friday, October 29, 2004 7:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by obsessed:
...4) I don't mind the occasional spelling mistake on difficult words, but some of the things I see misspelled are just frightening. Genious, seperate, differant, becouse, etc.

I'm the same on spelling mistakes, although anyone who misspells 'separate' gets my sympathy because it's one of those words that I have never been able to spell correctly without stopping and carefully going over it in my mind...

Has anyone ever noticed that, if you're stuck with the spelling of a word, the more you look at it the more wrong it looks, even if you do have the correct spelling... It really doesn't help!

---
"I think the right place to start is to say, fair is fair. This is who we are. These are our numbers." Mr Willis of Ohio - The West Wing

OBSESSED

Friday, October 29, 2004 9:06 AM

OK, I forgot, one thing. Is there someone, who can guess, what it is, or, do I have to, spell it out?

Book: I'd forgotten - you're moonlighting as a criminal mastermind now.
Simon: No, but I'm thinking about growing a big black mustache. I'm a traditionalist.

GROUNDED

Friday, October 29, 2004 9:57 AM

Could it, have something, to do with, misuse of, a particular, item of, punctuation?

BARNEYT

Friday, October 29, 2004 10:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
Could it, have something, to do with, misuse of, a particular, item of, punctuation?

Guily as charged on this one!

I've been on my best behaviour while writing posts to this thread, but I do have a tendency to write entire e-mails (and large tracts of essays until someone proof reads them for me!) without the end of a sentence in sight!

Although to be fair (to me), it's not so much that I misuse commas, just that I overuse them...

---
"I think the right place to start is to say, fair is fair. This is who we are. These are our numbers." Mr Willis of Ohio - The West Wing

MELEAUX

Friday, October 29, 2004 2:07 PM

Oh, I thought of another one. "impacted". To say I was impacted by the t.v. show FF. To be impacted means you were going at a great speed and were impacted into that brick wall. The t.v. show may have had an impact on you but you were not impacted by it. Teeth can be impacted, and I'm told bowels can be impacted....ew.

She understands, she doesn't comprehend

GOJIRO

Friday, October 29, 2004 2:32 PM

Ruxton, if you can get only one book on English usage, get the Chicago Manual of Style. It's the standard reference for the publishing industry, and most other style guides borrow from it. Only American newspapers go by a different set of rules, and those are set forth in the AP Style Guide.

ADMAU is a fantastic second reference, and I highly recommend it, but if you only can get one, CMS is the more complete of the two.

-------
Are you a Southern Ohio Browncoat? If so, join our Yahoo group for news and events: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly-ohio/

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UNCHARTEDOUTLAW

Friday, October 29, 2004 2:37 PM

Someone could be impacted by a show if they were sitting under a poorly-mounted TV.

Anyway...here it is, the last school day before Halloween and everyone in the English department has chosen to dress as different literary terms. I (dressed as a lumberjack) am a tall tale. ;)

-Taylor

The Uncharted Outlaw!
"I brought you some supper, but if you'd prefer a lecture, I've a few very catchy ones prepped...sin and hellfire... one has lepers."
See my Firefly Store: http://www.cafepress.com/NorCalRiviera

RHYMEPHILE

Friday, October 29, 2004 2:54 PM

Those apostrophes at the end of "s" or "ss" or even "z" words bug me. Why? Because as it was mentioned, there are different rules for them. I recall the big to-do when "Bridget Jones's Diary" came out and everyone was complaining that the apostrophes were used incorrectly in the film's title. Perhaps I'm a traditionalist, because I prefer just the single apostrophe rather than the "s's". I think it simply looks better.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

GOJIRO

Friday, October 29, 2004 3:06 PM

Actually, the traditional way of punctuating sibilants is the manner set forth in CMS, which is why Bridget Jones's Diary was correctly punctuated.

You would be a revolutionary for favoring the alternate way, I guess -- not a traditionalist.

It actually makes sense, though, when you examine the rules. "Joss's" means "belonging to Joss." The hanging apostrophe indicates joint ownership, e.g. "The deputies' guns where still in their holsters."

The only thing that doesn't make sense to me is why they make exceptions for Jesus, Moses, and Greek names. That just muddies the waters, and leads to discussions such as this one.

-------
Are you a Southern Ohio Browncoat? If so, join our Yahoo group for news and events: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly-ohio/

And if you're a Cincinnati Area Browncoat, join our meetup group at http://firefly.meetup.com/137/

ANKHAGOGO

Friday, October 29, 2004 5:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
Quote:
Originally posted by meleaux:
Also a local pronunciation of ASK- as AXE. "she axed me to go with her" It makes me literally cringe.

Count me in as a cringer. My cable company (Comcast) keeps running these ads where the family pronounces picture as PITCHER.

Oh,how I HATE that "axe" thing!!
Here's a few that makes me just freak out -
"ret" instead of "red". There is no T in the word red!!
"cent", as in "I have fifeteen cent".
Sorry, I'm not as touchy about "pitcher", mainly because that's a very common pronunciation of the word "picture" around here, so it really doesn't even register when I hear it.

There is also this habit people having of using one word when they mean another, apparently thinking the two are synonyms.
And heck,even the freakin' thesaruses are really bad about this.
I looked up "respect" (as a verb), and among other things,it had "revere"and "admire" listed.
Ok, "respect" and "revere" are NOT the same thing AT ALL.
"Respect" and "admire" aren't the same thing, either!You don't even have to respect someone to admire them, so how can they be the same?

Makes. Me. Crazy.

There's some crap puncutation for ya.

Audie Murphy could have had Sylvester Stallone for breakfast.

ANKHAGOGO

Friday, October 29, 2004 7:30 PM

Yeah, and I just realized most of my gripes are semantic, and not grammatic. Perhaps I should start a semantic thread.

Audie Murphy could have had Sylvester Stallone for breakfast.

MANIACNUMBERONE

Friday, October 29, 2004 7:43 PM

Sorry for my slow reply, Ruxton. Regarding your malformed sentence...

"I had an argument with a fellow (male) editor some years back, concerning the use of the term "late.""

Should prolly be...

Some years back, I had an argument with a fellow (male) editor concerning the use of the term "late."

I didn't want to make you mad or nuthin.
I just thought it was funny.

ASTRIANA

Friday, October 29, 2004 8:38 PM

The Gregg Reference Manual, Ninth Edition (Page 168, Sections 630-631) has the following to say about the use of apostrophes showing possession for words ending in "s" or the "s" sound.

Quote:
630
a. To form the possessive of a singular noun not ending in an s sound, add an apostrophe plus s.
my lawyer's advice
a child's game
Gloria's career
Mr. and Mrs. Goodwin's party
Alzheimer's disease
Down's syndrome

b. When a singular noun ends in a silent s, add an apostrophe plus s.
Illinois's highways
Arkansas's mountains
the corps's leadership
Des Moines's mayor

631 To form the possessive of a singular noun that ends in an s sound, be guided by the way you pronounce the word.

a. If a new syllable is formed in the pronunciation of the possessive, add an apostrophe plus s.
your boss's approval
the witness's reply
Congress's attention
Dallas's business district
Mr. and Mrs. Morris's plane tickets
Phoenix's suburbs
Ms. Lopez's application
Mr. Marsh's office
my coach's training regimen

b. If the addition of an extra syllable would make a word ending in an s hard to pronounce, add the apostrophe only.
Mrs. Phillips' request
Mr. Hastings' proposal
the Burroughs' condominium
Los Angeles' freeways
New Orleans' restaurants
Jesus' parables
Moses' flight from Egypt
for goodness' sake (see Section 646)
Achilles' heel
But: Achilles tendon

Note: Individual differences in pronunciation will affect the way some of these possessives are written. For example, if you pronounce the possessive form of Perkins as two syllables, you will write Mr. Perkins' kindness; if you pronounce the possessive of Perkins as three syllables, you will write Mr. Perkins's kindness. The important thing is to listen to your own pronunciation. When you hear yourself pronounce the possessive of boss as two syllables (boss's) and the possessive of witness as three syllables (witness's), you will not be tempted to write your boss' approval or the witness' reply. Naturally, tradition should take precedence over your ear. For example, an ambassador to Great Britain is appointed to the Court of St. James's (not, as you might expect, Court of St. James).

c. When forming the possessive of any noun ending in s (for example, Mr. Hodges), always place the apostrophe at the end of the original word, never within it.
Mr. Hodges' message (Not: Mr. Hodge's message)

~Astriana~
~Mostly-Invisible Long-Winded Goddess of Inter-Board Communication and Diplomacy a/k/a El Jefe Magnifico's Mistress... of Communications and Harems~

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

GOJIRO

Friday, October 29, 2004 8:54 PM

This is just the kind of anarchy to which I was previously referring. According to the note at the end, these rules are arbitrary, and depend on how you pronounce the word in question. This is especially troublesome given it's a manual for typists, who may not know how the person whose notes they're typing up would pronounce it.

That's why I prefer the CMS/ADMAU ruling. It says that the extra s sound doesn't have to be pronounced when spoken, but should be there when written. So it would be written always "Mr. Perkins's house," but when pronounced would simply sound like "Mr. Perkins house."

Even so, by Gregg, it would still be spelled "Joss's."

Whoa, did I just beat that to death? With a dead horse? Sorry. I guess this falls into the classification of Dave's Pet Peeve.

I shall speak no more on this forever. Well, at least in this thread.

-------
Are you a Southern Ohio Browncoat? If so, join our Yahoo group for news and events: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly-ohio/

And if you're a Cincinnati Area Browncoat, join our meetup group at http://firefly.meetup.com/137/

ASTRIANA

Friday, October 29, 2004 9:20 PM

*Laughing out loud and spelling it!*

Yeah, you're right. By Gregg's definition, it'd still be "Joss's."

~Astriana~
~Mostly-Invisible Long-Winded Goddess of Inter-Board Communication and Diplomacy a/k/a El Jefe Magnifico's Mistress... of Communications and Harems~

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

RUXTON

Friday, October 29, 2004 10:07 PM

ManiacNumberOne
Thanks. Reads better.

However, that said, I think my original method is part of my style, and thereby probably acceptable. In fact, I might have left out the comma, as though I had said, "I had an argument with a fellow yesterday concerning...." "I had an argument with a fellow editor some years back concerning...." Would that clarify it?

This use (as I originally wrote it) might be important depending on what came just before, such as a discussion of arguments, resulting in my wanting to start my statement with a declaration of having had an argument, rather than setting the time period first.

I confess I tend to write sentences backward, on occasion. And with phrases in unexpected places I write them. [Now that's just wrong.] Seems to be my style.

---------------------
You other guys: Okay already. It's Joss's. I were wrong.
--------------------

What I hate, new topic, is the use of the exclamation point at the end of a long sentence!

ZENCAT

Saturday, October 30, 2004 1:32 AM

It was Grounded who said "Personally I don't use & but if you find it easier then why not?" not me. I don't use & in place of "and".

Just for the record.