To those of us who just sold your country down the river...

POSTED BY: Clandestiny
UPDATED: Sunday, November 7, 2004 19:31
VIEWED: 18344
PAGE 1 of 1

CLANDESTINY

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 8:19 PM

... Damn you all. You're about to get exactly the government you deserve.

It's a shame that the rest of us have to take the punishment along with you.

-----------------------------
"I look at the big map and all of the red in flyover country and I feel like I've been locked in a room with the slow learners. We have become the country that pulls a dry cleaning bag over its head to play astronaut." --TBogg

JASONZZZ

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 8:27 PM

Actually no, you don't have to!

We all are free to make choices like that. Depending on which end of the US you live in, there are plenty of like minded folks just stone's throw away.

http://i22.ebayimg.com/01/i/02/c1/7c/63_1_b.JPG

Quote:
Originally posted by Clandestiny:
... Damn you all. You're about to get exactly the government you deserve.

It's a shame that the rest of us have to take the punishment along with you.

-----------------------------
"I look at the big map and all of the red in flyover country and I feel like I've been locked in a room with the slow learners. We have become the country that pulls a dry cleaning bag over its head to play astronaut." --TBogg

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PIRATEJENNY

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 10:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Clandestiny:
... Damn you all. You're about to get exactly the government you deserve.

It's a shame that the rest of us have to take the punishment along with you.

-----------------------------
"I look at the big map and all of the red in flyover country and I feel like I've been locked in a room with the slow learners. We have become the country that pulls a dry cleaning bag over its head to play astronaut." --TBogg

I was thinking the same thing although I'm still not covinced it was a fair election ..the computer voting was in Ohio and Florida

All the people who voted for Bush they are going to get exactly the what they deserve and they are probably going to be the ones crying the loudest when the Crap flies

but its a shame I take no comfort in seeing my fellow Americans suffer not even the delusional idiots who voted for this administration..yes its sad that we will have to suffer to too!!

ARCBEATLE

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 11:41 PM

God I hope theres no re-instaed draft.....

Ill be 18 in Bushes 3rd term....

If people only beleive wahts in a movie, their damn well sure beleiving Serenity.

GRUESOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 11:46 PM

I find it typical and annoying that when people on the right disagree with those on the left, they usually put it in terms of disagreeing with the left's position.

Whereas people on the left, as further evidenced here, tend to insult the intelligence of those on the right instead of just accepting that they disagree with our views.

How on earth will anyone be convinced of anything like that?

"Gee, you are an idiot! Now vote like me you slack-jawed yokel!"

I am tired of having to distance myself from so many people with which I share so many views because they are incapable of granting that the people on the other side might actually understand the issue and THINK DIFFERENTLY.

Which side is the tolerant one? I forget.

VETERAN

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 11:49 PM

You've never listened to Sean Hannity have you?

ARCBEATLE

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 11:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
You've never listened to Sean Hannity have you?

hehe, yeah, and anyways this is the only place I have to voice a liberal oppinion, Im like the only demcrat at my school....

If people only beleive wahts in a movie, their damn well sure beleiving Serenity.

GRUESOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 11:57 PM

Well... I have...

I don't really know anyone that likes him though.

Would it then be your contention that it is good
to emulate the likes of him?

You bring up an obvious example of someone on the right that is an attacker. But, his behavior is in the minority of those on the right in my opinion.

Sure, I see conservatives go after liberal VIEWS all the time. But the typical response is to question their intelligence or speculate on their "personal relationship with Jesus". Never once seeming to grant the idea that they have thought about the issue and simply view it different.

This election was typical, IMO. the drive wasn't to try to debate the merits of positions and perhaps change anyone's view with CALM conversation, it was to shanghai new voters to march lock-step into the booths to just outnumber them.

GRUESOME

Thursday, November 4, 2004 12:10 AM

In the vein of changing people's minds. If the left is so certain that the logic of their views will prevail, then why all the histrionics and rhetoric?

Why not calmly debate things issue by issue and, if really true, point out the fallacies in the beliefs of the opposition.

Look at how coming off as a raving looney did in Dean's campaign!

Does anyone on the left really feel that the right makes much distinction between Howard Dean and John Kerry?

Can any Kerry backers say with a clear conscience that they really thought he was the answer? (Of the 9, I'd have gone with Liebermann)

I'd ask people here that consider themselves on the left whether they have ever sat and watched a show like Bill O'Reilly for a week straight and tried to view it with an open mind. People like limbaugh and hannity are just lockstep with whatever bush says and does and there is nothing to be learned there.
Someone like O'Reilly actually disagrees with the republicans on occasions and it is interesting to see when and why he does. I think the left could learn from him that not everyone on the right is as insane or stupid as some here want to believe.

What I find sad, is that I am hard-pressed to give the left's version of O'Reilly. There are some members of congress I would point to, but I mean more in terms of those in the media that are sort of a left-centrist so that people on the right might be able to learn something about the left without "going off the deep end" in their eyes.

Lets face it, the most accessible media personalities on the left are about as far out as limbaugh and hannity...

Anyway. To those on the left, I'd say, think of someone good that is accessible and whose only purpose in life isn't to hate george bush...

SERGEANTX

Thursday, November 4, 2004 12:10 AM

It seems to me the real master stroke of this election was elevating the whole gay marriage thing to a national concern. I believe Karl Rove and company very deliberately turned this into a national issue to stoke up social conservatives. Once they are at the polls its a given they'll vote for Bush, since he's God's favorite and all.

Our population just gets more malleable as the methods for manipulating them get more sophisticated. Democracy can't work in such an environment.

Here it is folks. Quit sending your kids to public schools. Turn off the TV.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

CAPTAINHARBATKIN

Thursday, November 4, 2004 12:47 AM

Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. - H L Mencken

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
...they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins into their
clothing - and if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

CLANDESTINY

Thursday, November 4, 2004 12:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by gruesome:
I find it typical and annoying that when people on the right disagree with those on the left, they usually put it in terms of disagreeing with the left's position.

Whereas people on the left, as further evidenced here, tend to insult the intelligence of those on the right instead of just accepting that they disagree with our views.

How on earth will anyone be convinced of anything like that?

"Gee, you are an idiot! Now vote like me you slack-jawed yokel!"

I am tired of having to distance myself from so many people with which I share so many views because they are incapable of granting that the people on the other side might actually understand the issue and THINK DIFFERENTLY.

Which side is the tolerant one? I forget.

Sorry. I'm all out of tolerance. Tolerance, reason, and trying to coax a consensus is the standard Democratic tool, and what did it get us? Four more years of the worst Presidential administration in more than four decades.

Insult your intelligence? You bet. Yours and everyone else's who voted Bush in. Sorry if I offend you. But I'm looking at four more years of possibly irreparable damage to the country I call my home, and it's your fault; so I figure that one offense deserves another.

No. I am NOT prepared to be reasonable about this. So you can continue the debate or not, if you like -- I'm game -- but don't be surprised if I tear out a few throats.

I.

Am.

PISSED.

SIGMANUNKI

Thursday, November 4, 2004 12:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

Actually no, you don't have to!

We all are free to make choices like that. Depending on which end of the US you live in, there are plenty of like minded folks just stone's throw away.

So, then the ~50% of americans that don't believe in GW also don't have to pay any attention to any rediculous laws that he has made/will make (ie The "Patriot" Act, etc)? They will be able to rebuild international relations? They will be able to make the US's forgein policies less hostile? They'll be able to reinstitute enviornmental laws to protect the US and this planet? Homosexuals will be able to be married (or civil union) regardless of any constiutional changes that he makes?

Last I checked, these things and more are what *all* americans will exactly *not* be able to do in the next years whether they voted for Kerry *or* Bush.

Basically, there are consequences for every decision and about half of americans don't want the ones that *are* coming along with this one. But they *will* have to deal with them anyway. ie Just because you have someone to bitch about things with, doesn't change reality, period.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL

Thursday, November 4, 2004 12:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by gruesome:
I find it typical and annoying that when people on the right disagree with those on the left, they usually put it in terms of disagreeing with the left's position.

Whereas people on the left, as further evidenced here, tend to insult the intelligence of those on the right instead of just accepting that they disagree with our views.

Which side is the tolerant one? I forget.

Amen, brother. I don't think that Democrats are stupid, immoral, unenlightened people simply because they voted for Kerry. Quite the contrary--I'm glad that they voted for the candidate that they felt best represented their views. But don't "damn me" just because I don't agree with you. And don't insult me simply because I've decided that Kerry didn't represent what I was looking for in a President.

Now I realize that I leave myself open to questions like, "What were you looking for? A fascist dictator?" But honestly, that's just immature. Let's leave this red/blue bashing off our boards. We've got way more class than this, folks.

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

ZARK1976

Thursday, November 4, 2004 12:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by arcbeatle:
Ill be 18 in Bushes 3rd term....B]

Uhm, please tell me that you're joking and you know that's constitutionally impossible. please please please.

"Could be he's harboring some resentment at us for putting his man through our engine."

HJERMSTED

Thursday, November 4, 2004 1:00 AM

U.S. policy has gone beyond the political pendulum theory (a swing to the right followed by a swing to the left).

I prefer an anology that has the U.S. going in circles. Very small circles like a pacing lunatic. We have two parties when we should be enjoying the influence of numerous parties via a proportional representation system (for congressional bodies) and instant run-off voting -aka- majority preferential voting (for selecting executives). These are new democratic tools that empower the citizens. Other nations use them as we speak with fantastic drool-inducing results. [Another great democratic tool the U.S. does not have: binding national referendums.]

If we MUST keep this decrepit winner-take-all electoral college system, we need to redistribute the electoral votes. The south has far too much influence over our national political scene. It is stagnating the nation. When the two parties spend all of their time trying to dominate each other and/or dismantle each other's programs (after a changing of the guard, for example), all this country ends up getting is stuck and frustrated. New innovative ideas cannot be explored in this environment.

Perhaps it is time to break the U.S. up into smaller nations. The south can form their nation and do their thing and the north plus the coasts can be another nation and do something different. Maybe breaking the nation down into three or four nations is even better. Technically, we are supposed to be 50 small nations right now... but we all know this is NOT how the power has been distributed.

I'm all for it! Let's downsize the U.S. into three or four medium sized nations. The new nations could, of course, form political and economic alliances (if they don't stupidly declare war on each other).

Like a dozen or so european nations have done over the past decade or two, I believe it is time for north american citizens to explore regional autonomy over hulking nationalism.

mattro

THEGREYJEDI

Thursday, November 4, 2004 1:00 AM

I present you with a picture of two Americas. The Northeast, North Midwest, and the Left Coast, and Florida(New New York) being one Country.

The South, Midwest, and Everywhere Else, being another.

You will note that our nations largest cities and most of our money finds itself in the New York, California, Chicago, Florida spaces. And These are your Loudest Democrats.

Then you take your lower income South and Mid-west. And these are Republicans.

I think all Kerry supportes should look closely at the results. Even if you give Ohio to Kerry, he doesn't have enough to win. Bush has the majority this time around, even of the popular vote. You know why this happened? Kerry lost the Conservative Southern Democrats. Too much polarization of the parties is happening. Want to make this place better on both parties? Vote for moderate candidates. I'm a die-hard Republican. I would have voted for Clarke if he'd have gotten the nomination. Also, look at how many people voted! My God! It was beautiful! We've seen one of the highest voter turnouts ever! And remember, it's only a four year term. The next president is likely to be a Democrat. But all of you registered Democrats, make a point to spread the word. Nominate and vote for moderates. You'll steal votes from other parties, and win your own conservatives. Republicans! You'll make compromise and peace between parties easier if you support moderate candidates!

We voted! My God did we vote! It was a beautiful thing.

--------------------------------------------------
http://tomeofgrey.blogspot.com

http://www.jed-soft.com Gamer Rigs, Budget Prices

SERGEANTX

Thursday, November 4, 2004 1:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hjermsted:
U.S. policy has gone beyond the political pendulum theory (a swing to the right followed by a swing to the left).

I prefer an anolo...
...I believe it is time for north american citizens to explore regional autonomy over hulking nationalism.

mattro

You rock Hjermsted. My sentiment approximately.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

ANFA

Thursday, November 4, 2004 2:26 AM

Wow. You all are disturbed. I truly understand your frustrations and anger, but it comes down to one thing - It is done. No going back. The popular vote was determined, it happend to be Bush, and even poor old Ben Affleck and all those musicians couldn't sway enough people in the end. What they [did] do was inspire the younger generation to get out there and voice their opinions.
I think I have to agree with TheGreyJedi - look how many people voted. That is amazing!!! I happen to live in Ohio. I stood in line at a tiny neighborhood fire station for about a half an hour to use a portable, old fashioned voting booth (a card with chads and all!), but I know people that waited 2 to 4 hours and more just to get in. The lines around the Columbus area were insane! No other election comes to mind where voter turn out has been this incredible.
And if you really think disbanding our great nation into many seperate ones is going to solve all of our problems, well, as they say - It's a free country, you are entitled to your own opinion. But it was our country, united, that gave that right to you.

" We're just too pretty for God to let us die."

JASONZZZ

Thursday, November 4, 2004 2:55 AM

which will only lead to the inevitable prediction that the 2008 election will have abysmal turnout since everyone will now think that nothing they do will affect much change. All that wait for the same status quo.

Quote:
Originally posted by Anfa:
Wow. You all are disturbed. I truly understand your frustrations and anger, but it comes down to one thing - It is done. No going back. The popular vote was determined, it happend to be Bush, and even poor old Ben Affleck and all those musicians couldn't sway enough people in the end. What they [did] do was inspire the younger generation to get out there and voice their opinions.
I think I have to agree with TheGreyJedi - look how many people voted. That is amazing!!! I happen to live in Ohio. I stood in line at a tiny neighborhood fire station for about a half an hour to use a portable, old fashioned voting booth (a card with chads and all!), but I know people that waited 2 to 4 hours and more just to get in. The lines around the Columbus area were insane! No other election comes to mind where voter turn out has been this incredible.
And if you really think disbanding our great nation into many seperate ones is going to solve all of our problems, well, as they say - It's a free country, you are entitled to your own opinion. But it was our country, united, that gave that right to you.

" We're just too pretty for God to let us die."

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SHLEE79

Thursday, November 4, 2004 3:40 AM

Nevermind, I guess I read the news wrong. But still, even though there were more young voters this year we still only accounted for about 17% of all voters as we did in 2000. Oh well, I was hoping that more of us would vote.

JASONZZZ

Thursday, November 4, 2004 4:26 AM

But you did get all get a free bag of Ramen, package of underwear, and listen to free Springsteen. wOOt!

Quote:
Originally posted by shlee79:
Nevermind, I guess I read the news wrong. But still, even though there were more young voters this year we still only accounted for about 17% of all voters as we did in 2000. Oh well, I was hoping that more of us would vote.

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GRUESOME

Thursday, November 4, 2004 4:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Clandestiny:
Sorry. I'm all out of tolerance. Tolerance, reason, ...

So it would seem.

Quote:
Originally posted by Clandestiny:
Insult your intelligence? You bet. Yours and everyone else's who voted Bush in.

Me? Where exactly did you draw THAT conclusion from? Because you sound like a raving loon to me right now, I must be a republican?
Get off your high horse, read my words and tell me where I gave party affiliation. If anything, I think I dropped some pretty big clues about the OPPOSITE.

Quote:
Originally posted by Clandestiny:
Sorry if I offend you. But I'm looking at four more years of possibly irreparable damage to the country I call my home, and it's your fault; so I figure that one offense deserves another.

Hey, high horse! Illinois resident here... how did YOUR state deliver?

Quote:
Originally posted by Clandestiny:
No. I am NOT prepared to be reasonable about this.

Yes, that is plainly obvious by your errant choice of target. In a prior post, I mentioned how annoying it was to agree in principle with so many people that were simply incapable of expressing anything but bile. Your means of communicating leave much to be desired. You rant and try to piss ME off? No wonder you seem so ineffective at convincing others of your point. Luckily for you, people like me will keep trying to actually talk to others... No thanks necessary though, your apparent scorn is all I need for motivation to help you.

ROCKETJOCK

Thursday, November 4, 2004 5:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by zark1976:
Quote:
Originally posted by arcbeatle:
Ill be 18 in Bushes 3rd term....B]

Uhm, please tell me that you're joking and you know that's constitutionally impossible. please please please.

I imagine he's being sardonic. But -- don't bet long odds against the XXII amendment being repealed during the next four years. If the Machine can pull that off, I see it as only a matter of time before "emergency legislation" gets passed "for our own good," and Bush becomes fundamentally unasailable in office.

A four-year hiatus in the gathering junta's momentum would have been nice, but in the long run, both major parties are dedicated to reducing our freedom. Just never thought we'd sell it so quickly. Or so cheaply.

Oh, for a Firefly-class transport, and a clear night sky...

"You can't enslave a free man. The most you can do is kill him." -- Robert A. Heinlein

FIREFLOOZYSUZIE

Thursday, November 4, 2004 5:17 AM

Clandestiny, I'm with you.

And I too am very, very worried.

Well, it's going to be a long four years.
I'd better get some sleep while I can.

GRUESOME

Thursday, November 4, 2004 5:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by firefloozysuzie:
Clandestiny, I'm with you.

What is there to be with?

That he even wants to fight with someone that dislikes Bush as much as he? How reasonable is that?

My entire point was that too many dems burn time and energy doing nothing but attacking the other side rather than attempting to understand why they think differently. And what happens when I say that relatively easy to understand truth? *I* get attacked and have it explained to me who *I* must have voted for and how the problems of the country are now MY fault!

In what world is that NOT insane?

Is it really such a stretch to see why people on the right might start wondering about the stability of those on the left?

Look at one issue... Say gay marriage.
Whether its logical or not, someone on the far right might tend to say, "I think gay marriage is wrong."
They have stated their opinion of that thing. The most common sort of response I see from the left is NOT any sort of explanation of why it doesn't harm them personally and all that jazz, it is FAR more often simply to deride their intelligence or their religious beliefs or accuse them of inbreeding, etc...
Now that person MIGHT have been reasoned with early on... Maybe successfully, maybe not... But I can GUARANTEE you that they will not listen to ONE FRIGGIN WORD you have to say after you piss in their face. And the next person that comes along, ohhh say... ME... has an ENORMOUSLY uphill battle to convince them f the logic of the situation.

But, by all means, its a free country, swim in your bile and enjoy. At some point I'll just surrender and then you can call me a nazi too...

PIRATEJENNY

Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:03 AM

Quote:
Look at how coming off as a raving looney did in Dean's campaign!

I love Howard Dean you call him names raving looney, what I saw was a very passionate man...I would have prefered him to Kerry

showing emotion gets you labeled a looney by the radical right..

thats sick

GRUESOME

Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
I love Howard Dean you call him names raving looney, what I saw was a very passionate man...I would have prefered him to Kerry
showing emotion gets you labeled a looney by the radical right..

thats sick

I am just describing what he came off as. And it was the dems that toppled him from his perch through the rest of the primaries, so don't go looking to the "radical right" to blame. You simply cannot behave that way and not expect to turn a percentage of people off.

I guess I am just not making my point very well when everyone that replies still feels the need to lash out at the right. I do not find it "radical" to think that Howard Dean appeared unstable at times. By the time the primaries reached here in Illinois, he was already pretty much dead, but we did make sure to put him to rest. He would have been a landslide loser after his behavior.

Until people like you get out of the mindset of immediately calling "the other side" names, you'll forever be someone that can only preach to the choir.

I think how people reply to me here will speak volumes about their capabilities. I feel pretty confident that I have been calm, reasonable and truthful. If someone finds themselves incapable of replying in kind, it seems to me that it should be a pretty good indicator of where the problem lies...

Cheers,
Gruesome

NEUTRINOLAD

Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:18 AM

Quote:
...people on the left, as further evidenced here, tend to insult the intelligence of those on the right instead of just accepting that they disagree with our views.

I can definitely see how you get that impression.

Quote:
...when people on the right disagree with those on the left, they usually put it in terms of disagreeing with the left's position.

In my experience, those on the right tend to insult those on the left as; lacking morals, treasonous, unpatriotic, communists, socialists, and America Haters.

So you see, you've both got wonderful ad hominem attacks available. No need to actually examine issues or understand history, or even the language used, at all. Wonderful epithets, our brains would ache with thought if not for them.

RICKKER

Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:23 AM

well here's another fine mess we've gotten ourselves into. Did everybody take a stupid pill yesterday? I blame reality telivision. Stupid programing for stupid people. I don't have reception at my house. I got little info off my computer on line. Was nobody paying attention these last four years? My boss said that he heard a comentary that the guess was that most people were affraid to change leaders when loved ones were in a war. WAKE UP PEOPLE the leader you jusat re-elected was the moron that sent them there! Do you honestly think he has a plan to get them out? He's an oil man. Iraq has (had?) the worlds largest ooil reserve. Why do you think he had such a hardon for going in. Over 90% of the worlds oil is in the hands of people that really don't like us. I am serious ly dissppinted in my fellow Americans. After 9/11 we had a chance to unite the world as never before. What happend Bush showed off his leadership skills and united the world against us. Lets not forget little ole Cheney. What a piece of crap. This standup American sends all his money offshore to avoid taxes. Sets up Iraq and offers billion dollar contracts to his own company. This ass should be shot for treason. We get all these glorious tax breaks. Only if we already got lots of money. Lets not forget all the breaks to corporations to send jobs overseas. Do you honestly think re-electing the village idiot will make things right? One of the setups Bush used early on is about changing a horse in mid stream. IF THE FREAKING HORSE GOES ON A BLOODY RAMPAGE RUNNING HEADFIRST INTO THE RAGING RIVER AFTER BEING TOLD SEVERAL TIMES NOT TO. THEN IT BUCKS LIKE HELL TRYING TO THROW YOU OFF. Then yes you do. You get the hell off and you put a bullet in the rabid animals head and you put it out of everyones misery. You do not settle in calmly let it throw you and then let it lead, hoping it will take you out of the river, It's more likely to run you into the rapids. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Kerry would not be the cure for everything. What needs fixing is going to take a lot of time and effort from everyone. I also know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he would have gotten us closer to the right direction than Bush ever could. For most of you out there that voted for Bush and are eligible for the draft. You will get what you deserve. He said he would create 100,000 new jobs. Three million went away. He said he was a man of peace. We are in the wrong war. He said there would be no draft. America was and could be so much. Now it is just a ship of fools. led by the biggest fool of all.

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL

Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by gruesome:
Until people like you get out of the mindset of immediately calling "the other side" names, you'll forever be someone that can only preach to the choir.

I am a Christian Republican who has voted for Bush twice. And I'll tell you, I'd gladly sit down over coffee with Gruesome any day and talk over the issues. And why? Because he will respect me as a person and respect my right as a person to hold my own opinions. Tolerance means allowing other people to have their own beliefs. Allowing people have beliefs only so long as they agree with yours is the very height of intolerance. I would never even consider the opinion of Clandestiny or PirateJenny, because they come into the conversation insulting me and my intelligence! Gruesome, on the other hand, I would listen too, because he has enough class to tolerate differing opinions. All I can say is thank God the Democratic party who have people who would rather use reason and logic than vitriol and insults. Good on you, Gruesome.

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

PIRATEJENNY

Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:37 AM

Quote:
My entire point was that too many dems burn time and energy doing nothing but attacking the other side rather than attempting to understand why they think differently. And what happens when I say that relatively easy to understand truth? *I* get attacked and have it explained to me who *I* must have voted for and how the problems of the country are now MY fault!

No this is so not true!! Its time that us Democrates Progressives start calling you guys out on the crap!! actually its the other way around..the attacking comes from the radical right..its very hard to have a reasonable disscussion or for that matter intelligent discussion with rightwingers..most of you guys don't deal in facts..and when we try to have reasonable fact base discussions with you guys..its like talking to a brick wall..most of you guys can't acknowlege the truth let alone discuss it

its not even about disagreeing or listening
for example lets take your example of gay marriage, nobody is saying you have to like it or agree with it and that is your right ..but if you live in a free society if you believe in democracy, then you don't try to encroach on someones human rights you don't try to make them 2nd and 3rd class citazens

don't wrap youself up in the flag and talk about freedom and democracy..and then try to undermine someone else of those same rights just because you disagree... if you talk the talk then walk the walk and support the very ideals and ideology your country represents and stands for... its ok to disagree but don't try to dis infranchise someone else.

this is one of my main problems with radical righwingers and reps..most of you guys are too hypocritcal for words.

its hard for a reasonable person to have a discussion with a hypocrite, or someone who chooses to be in a delusional state and isn't reasonable

another example is the evangelical christian right..these people who claim to have values and morals and yet they don't stand for or support the very morals and values they claim to have.

how can these people claim to have morals and values and vote for an admistration like the Bush administration the same admistration that preachs morals and values and yet every law and bill that they support is the very opposite of what they claim.

Most of these so called evangelical christians are really bigots and they use religion as a sheild, and thats why they support a morally bankrupt administration like the current one

I've seen to many times where Dem's Liberal Progressives have tried to be reasonable and use logic and comon sense and they've been attacked

this is what its like trying to have a reasonable discussion with a rightwinger..

it could be day outside and a rightwinger will look you straight in the eye and say "No its night" and you could say "look out the window the sun is shining brightly" and the rightwinger will call you crazy because you said it was day when its day!!

and yes if your one of the ones who voted for this administration be prepared for the blame to be layed squarely on your shoulders when the Crap flies..( and it will)thats the price you'll have to pay!!..no excuses!! because we've tried to be reasonable we've tried to talk to you guys reasonably and you guys don't hear or don't care..so yes your gonna be blamed and rightly so!!

GRUESOME

Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by NeutrinoLad:
In my experience, those on the right tend to insult those on the left as; lacking morals, treasonous, unpatriotic, communists, socialists, and America Haters.

I've certainly seen that. But honestly, to my eye, that rhetoric seems like last resort from most on the right.

I am trying to think how to word this...

There is a certain... Smugness... that many on the left seem to have. As if they "get it" and those on the right do not.

Mind you, I am speaking(typing?) all in generalities here, but where I think the right assumes wrong is when people to whom many of those labels might really apply *cough*michael moore*cough* are seen saying and supporting many of the same things that more reasonable people on the left espouse, the right seems to think that EVERYONE that agrees on certain social issues must agree on ALL issues. So I think the right jumps to conclusions by assuming that that everyone on the left is lock-step with celebrities that are socialists in all but name.

The smugness I mentioned... I can see it in this thread. This sense that some people here simply give up because the right will just never "get it". Its all very condescending. Like you are fed up with your errant children and they just will never learn.

I used to try to understand "the opposition" because I always found that it was a very effective tool in debating. To be able to take the opposite position and understand it to the point that you can argue it yourself helps you to find many holes in it. But as I got older, I started to realize quite simply that understanding the other point of view should be an ends in itself, and not a means to a different end.

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL

Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
its very hard to have a reasonable disscussion or for that matter intelligent discussion with rightwingers..most of you guys don't deal in facts..and when we try to have reasonable fact base discussions with you guys..its like talking to a brick wall..most of you guys can't acknowlege the truth let alone discuss it

this is one of my main problems with radical righwingers and reps..most of you guys are too hypocritcal for words.

Most of these so called evangelical christians are really bigots and they use religion as a sheild, and thats why they support a morally bankrupt administration like the current one

Thanks for illustrating my point, Jenny.

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

GRUESOME

Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:52 AM

Quote:
"start calling you guys out on the crap"
"its very hard to have a reasonable disscussion or for that matter intelligent discussion with rightwingers"
"you guys don't deal in facts"
"its like talking to a brick wall"
"you guys can't acknowlege the truth"
"don't wrap youself up in the flag"
"you guys are too hypocritcal for words"

I don't know what to say.... But here goes...

Let me start by asking you a couple simple questions.
Am I a republican or a democrat?
A rightwinger or leftwinger?
Who did I vote for?
Am I religious?

After you have answered those, we can move on to this statement:

Quote:
evangelical christians are really bigots and they use religion as a sheild

What part of my messages here have confused you? I am trying to ask whether you are CAPABLE of holding a conversation WITHOUT this sort of CHILDISH generalization. Quite frankly, people like you EMBARRASS ME because it becomes more difficult by the day to hold REAL conversations with people because they start assuming I am going to freak out on them LIKE YOU DO, just because we share some certain beliefs.

Quote:
we've tried to talk to you guys reasonably and you guys don't hear or don't care

Thats funny. I don't think we've met, and to this point, I've been quite reasonable. Can you say the same?

So, if you are not going to even attempt to listen to reason, I'd simply ask you to instead SHUT UP and leave the talking to the grown ups.

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:53 AM

Quote:
I find it typical and annoying that when people on the right disagree with those on the left, they usually put it in terms of disagreeing with the left's position.

Whereas people on the left, as further evidenced here, tend to insult the intelligence of those on the right instead of just accepting that they disagree with our views. - Gruesome

Quote:
And I'll tell you, I'd gladly sit down over coffee with Gruesome any day and talk over the issues. And why? Because he will respect me as a person and respect my right as a person to hold my own opinions. Tolerance means allowing other people to have their own beliefs. Allowing people have beliefs only so long as they agree with yours is the very height of intolerance. I would never even consider the opinion of Clandestiny or Succotash, because they come into the conversation insulting me and my intelligence- InevitableBetrayal

It would probably be a very congenial discussion indeed.

Regarding the intelligence of Bush supporters-

I've gone rounds with a Bush supporter who remains CONVINCED that Saddam had massive amounts of WMD just before we invaded in 2003. This despite the fact that the Hans Blix, David Kay, and Charles Duelfer have gone over Iraq with a fine-tooth comb and found nothing. I've tried explaining that WMD don't store well (5 years, except for mustard gas) and that in order for Saddam to have the "massive" amounts of WMD that Bush claimed, Saddam would require a large manufacturing effort to build up those stockpiles. I've tried explaining that manufacturing, culturing/ weaponizing, and storing on that scale inevitably leaves traces. I've tried explaining that if he had listened to the efforts of the UN inspection teams he would have understood and appreciated how dedicated and downright sneaky the UN guys were and how unlikely it was that they would have missed anything significant. But he kept pointing over and over again to the WMD that Saddam "had" over a decade ago, believing that was somehow relevant, and no amount factual information could sway him off his idee fixe. BTW, I'm a chemist, and part of my job is to understand industrial, chemical agent, and biological releases.

The point is that Bush supporters refer to their "beliefs" over and over. It seems impossible for them (you?) talk about their support without using that word. I respect beliefs about as much as anyone, but don't expect me to treat beliefs as if they're facts, because they're not. It's like trying to reach a consensus with someone who insists that 2+2=5. What's the point of even talking about it?

GRUESOME

Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm not sure I'm even seeing any difference between you two

heh... ohhh... I think the laundry list of disagreements would require more than a few cups of coffee...

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I've gone rounds with a Bush supporter

I think it is very telling that your own description of the conversation used a boxing analogy.

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL

Thursday, November 4, 2004 7:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Regarding the intelligence of Bush supporters...

Once again, you've entered the conversation insulting my intelligence.

I'm sure that Gruesome and I would disagree on any number of points (gun control, abortion, and gay marriage come to mind). My point was that I'm much more inclined to listen to someone who is willing to respect the fact that as a fellow human being, I have the right to hold my own opinion. That's what tolerance is.

I just can't believe that now Gruesome is in the same hated category as me, a hated Christian conservative Bush-supporting Republican, simply because he wants to hold a civil conversation! And you wonder why "people like me" won't even dialogue with you...

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 4, 2004 7:06 AM

Because I'd deconstructed his argument point by meticulous point, providing links, facts from my own work, research from other's work, and the guy kept pounding me over the head with his fixation. He was literally pointing to LACK OF EVIDENCE as evidence that something was there.

How can you have a reasoned discussion with someone who refuses to reason?

GRUESOME

Thursday, November 4, 2004 7:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by InevitableBetrayal:
I'm sure that Gruesome and I would disagree on any number of points (gun control, abortion, and gay marriage lead to mind)

Well... To set the record straight, I am pro-2nd amendment and staunchly anti-abortion.

But we would likely disagree on:
1. Gay rights
2. Drugs
3. Censorship
4. Patriot Act (And John Ashcroft in general)
5. Bush Selling out our technology field to India
6. Bush siding with CHINA?!?! over Thailand's independence
7. And probably dozens of other civil liberties being stolen everydaybut its late and I am tired...

But I wanted to clear up the 2 we agreed on, guns and babies!

Cheers,
Gruesome

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 4, 2004 7:13 AM

Quote:
I have the right to hold my own opinion. That's what tolerance is.

Of course you have the right to your own opinion. I wasn't trying to say that YOU are like the example I gave. But it's been my experience that when I DO try and discuss things logically and reasonably with Bush supporters, it often gets to the point where they ditch evidence and logic and wind up stating a belief. And the one thing about belief is that you can't prove it... that's why it's belief and not fact. Since by definition it can't be proved, it may a well not be brought into a discussion.

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL

Thursday, November 4, 2004 7:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'd deconstructed his argument point by meticulous point, providing links, facts from my own work, research from other's work, and the guy kept pounding me over the head with his fixation. He was literally pointing to LACK OF EVIDENCE as evidence that something was there.

How can you have a reasoned discussion with someone who refuses to reason?

You're right. That man was an idiot, no question. But you can't extrapolate from him that all Bush supporters think similarly.

I'm a military intelligence analyst. Pre-war I was convinced--and not because of anything Bush said--that WMD would be found in Iraq. I was scared out of my mind when that first missile came our way. Now--I think we were all wrong. I think Saddam perpetuated the belief because it kept Iran in check.

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 4, 2004 7:19 AM

Huh! Well, OK, I think we have some common ground here!!

Cheers! I'm off to bed. Sleep well.

GRUESOME

Thursday, November 4, 2004 7:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
How can you have a reasoned discussion with someone who refuses to reason?

I ask myself that everyday.

I wasn't there and didn't hear your conversation. I know that for myself, I get some of my best results with the concept that honey attracts more flies than vinegar. Facts are certainly useful, but there is a reason some people are great salesman and other are not.

PIRATEJENNY

Thursday, November 4, 2004 7:22 AM

in response to gruesome

1rst off you took what I said out of context, with your cut an paste 2nd I was making generalities..its too bad you can't seem to distingish that..and you took what I posted personally

you made a broad statement about people on the left

so I made a broad statement about people on the right in response.

I'm not interested in if you are a rep or a dem or right or left, I'm not interested in you!! I was interested in what you posted

so I hope that is clarified, believe me if I had of been interested in you I would have asked about you...I'm not just what you posted!!
I'm assuming if your going to make and post statments like that you must want a response

This is sad but if any point was proven I would have to say its more mine then yours

your own hypocrisy is coming through..you accuse the left of not being able to have a disscussion but by your very post its obviously you who can't

I didn't have the need to tell you or anyone else to Shut up..but you did

so I ask who needs to grow up...

who can't seem to have an intelligent discussion

thats because I know how to have a reasonable discussion its obvious that you don't

Please take your own advice..you seem to be in dire need of it

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL

Thursday, November 4, 2004 7:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
I have the right to hold my own opinion. That's what tolerance is.
It's been my experience that when I DO try and discuss things logically and reasonably with Bush supporters, it often gets to the point where they ditch evidence and logic and wind up stating a belief. And the one thing about belief is that you can't prove it... that's why it's belief and not fact. Since by definition it can't be proved, it may a well not be brought into a discussion.

If we're talking religious beliefs, then I agree. But I also believe the sun will rise tomorrow, and I doubt you'd dispute that. Beliefs are simply things we hold to be true. Some things we're right about, some wrong. The problem isn't really beliefs, per se, it's presuppositions. If I presuppose that fetus is a human being--a baby--why, that's gonna color the landscape for me. If I presuppose that it isn't, it'll also shape what I believe. The trouble is that presuppositions are virtually impossible to change. Hence, when Dems and Reps sit down to talk, both walk away shaking their head, convinced of their own superiority. I just wish we could all take a big fat skepticism pill and let go of the conviction that we just have to be right.

With that...night all!

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

GRUESOME

Thursday, November 4, 2004 7:32 AM

Dear PirateJenny,

In response to your post:

Quote:
blah blah blah blah blah

Let me simply say that I have no interest in arguiing with you. I made generalizations about other people on the left because I see it too often and am tired of being identified with it. YOU chose to post a "vigourous" and spiteful retort to me in which you:
1. Accused me of being a republican.
2. Said that all the problems of the country would be my fault.
3. Went on to make stupid generalizations about religious people that is EXACTLY the sort of thing that I asked people NOT to do in my original post to this thread.

So... That having been said. You really needn't reply. These are not arguments, they are simply an explanation why I don't really want to talk to you anymore. You are likely to vote how I would prefer anyway, so I certainly don't need to sway you politically. I had just rather hoped that I might convince people like you that you hurt your own cause everytime you post because you do not come off well and you will never convince anyone that disagrees with you of anything. All you will do is piss them off and make it harder for people like me to win people over to our side.

So... shhhhhhhh....

P.S. if you ever want to discuss something civily, feel free to post civily and it will be responded to in kind.

Cheers,
Gruesome

PIRATEJENNY

Thursday, November 4, 2004 7:38 AM

Quote:
If we're talking religious beliefs, then I agree. But I also believe the sun will rise tomorrow, and I doubt you'd dispute that. Beliefs are simply things we hold to be true. Some things we're right about, some wrong. The problem isn't really beliefs, per se, it's presuppositions. If I presuppose that fetus is a human being--a baby--why, that's gonna color the landscape for me. If I presuppose that it isn't, it'll also shape what I believe.

and thats my whole point although I don't agree that the problem is presuppositions, because you or anyone is free to believe what you want to believe and your free to practice your belifes, the problem is when people try to put their belifes onto others who don't believe the same things

your truth is your truth ..but don't try to make your truth someone elses....thats the problem..and thats the problem with alot of rightwingers which is what I basically stated in my other post!!

PIRATEJENNY

Thursday, November 4, 2004 7:44 AM

you've proven my point once again.

and your blah's thats childish..this is exactly what I was saying

and no let me clarify for you since you need clarifcation go back and read my post

I didn't accuse you of being a rep I don't care if you are or not

and I didn't say the problems of the country would be your fault I said if you are one of those that voted for this administration that the problems would be your fault!!

only you know who you did or did not vote for!!

you made a broad statment about people on the left not being able to have a discussion but its clear who can't seem to have an intelligent discussion without name calling this is what I was getting at in my intail response this kind of behavior is a prime example response

I don't know if your a rep or not and like I said I don't care but so far by the way this discussions been going I wouldn't be surprised!!

PIRATEJENNY

Thursday, November 4, 2004 7:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by gruesome:
Dear PirateJenny,

In response to your post:
Quote:
blah blah blah blah blah

Let me simply say that I have no interest in arguiing with you. I made generalizations about other people on the left because I see it too often and am tired of being identified with it. YOU chose to post a "vigourous" and spiteful retort to me in which you:
1. Accused me of being a republican.
2. Said that all the problems of the country would be my fault.
3. Went on to make stupid generalizations about religious people that is EXACTLY the sort of thing that I asked people NOT to do in my original post to this thread.

So... That having been said. You really needn't reply. These are not arguments, they are simply an explanation why I don't really want to talk to you anymore. You are likely to vote how I would prefer anyway, so I certainly don't need to sway you politically. I had just rather hoped that I might convince people like you that you hurt your own cause everytime you post because you do not come off well and you will never convince anyone that disagrees with you of anything. All you will do is piss them off and make it harder for people like me to win people over to our side.

So... shhhhhhhh....

P.S. if you ever want to discuss something civily, feel free to post civily and it will be responded to in kind.

Cheers,
Gruesome

OH MY GAWD!!! this is to sick for words ...this person Gruesom put Blah blah blah in qoutes and tried to pretend like I'm the one who posted such childish nonesense...

thats so sick geez whats wrong with you!!

I hope everyone sees the level you'll stoop too

sad very very sad!!

TOM

Thursday, November 4, 2004 9:16 AM

I tend not to post too much because most people say what I would say myself. But, this mudslinging between people on this post is too much to pass up.

"Ding" the rounds over.
Lets all take a step back and calm down people. Some are taking the posts personal, retorting with posts agianst the person. If we are going to have this post, Like Gruesome said, lets keep it civil and focus on the actual points. Throwing out posts about who is acting like a child and what not are just gonna waste time. I mean it took me over 45 min to read all these(i could be a slow reader though) and maybe 6-10 actually were on topic.

But, thats just my oppinion feel free to blow me out of the water with snide comments and witty retorts.

Anyways...I'm 18 and im scared shitless(please excuse the language) that someday soon im gonna have to shoot a gun at someone. Personally i have been avoiding the political scene and all the information and misinformation that has been flying out of that area for a bit. So if you guys could do me a favor and fill me in i would be most appreciative. The main question i had is whats happing in afghanistan. I don't think i have heard of a whole lot coming out of there for a bit. I mean every couple days there some new bombing going on in Iraq. But, it seems the media powers are being a bit tight lipped about stuff going on in afghanistan. I mean considering that the 9/11 started there with a guy named Osama im just curious as to whats happening there. It was pretty smooth how that seemed to disappear in light of Iraq....

JAYNEZTOWN

Thursday, November 4, 2004 9:41 AM

Looks liek faux news helped out

http://www.moveon.org/foxad-QT.html

Quote:
...

Next one...2008
Be ready for Cheney ( Mr Apartheid ) as president
and the little hispanic dictator George Prescott Bush as VP
The Bush dynasty will continue....

CLANDESTINY

Thursday, November 4, 2004 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by gruesome:
Hey, high horse! Illinois resident here... how did YOUR state deliver?

My state is New York. Enough said.

Quote:
No thanks necessary though, your apparent scorn is all I need for motivation to help you.

You accuse me of riding the high horse?

Oh, kettle, thou art black.

As for the rest of this discussion, I've forgotten one of the rules I've always tried to live by, which is:

"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."

CLANDESTINY

Thursday, November 4, 2004 10:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by firefloozysuzie:
Clandestiny, I'm with you.

And I too am very, very worried.

Well, it's going to be a long four years.
I'd better get some sleep while I can.

Hiya, Suzie. Long time no. Thanks for the support. We "raving lunatics" will have to stick together very closely in the next four years...

-----------------------------
"Take my love, take my land, take my wife -- please." -- Henny Youngman performs the Firefly Theme.

BOYD

Thursday, November 4, 2004 11:36 AM

As an american/kiwi expat overseas I am the one who has to put up with the shit from our current "aggressive" administration.

While you all drive around in your SUVs bitching about the Red Soxs I have to hear people belittle and tear down my favorite (note the lack of an U!) country. As a tree hugging liberal I am seeing all my rights and yours disappearing around us. Fundemental (in my humble opion anyway) rights such as the right to a have an abortion or the union of two people in love (gay or not) are being challenged. We are destroying ourselves and that "freedom" of which we are so proud of. America is no longer the land of the free it is the land of the "facist oil tycoons raping our country and the world to line their pockets". I came up with that one myself!

The "war on terror" is so very cheesy and fake even from here. The reason terroists bomb the crap out of the US is not becuase they dislike our freedom (i mean cmon who dislikes freedom?) its becuase our administration keeps attacking targets to benefit from them economically. Wake up and smell the air. The world is now less safe, people are less trusting, and the world in general chaos.

The damage done to Americas ties to the world, the American people (even though you arent feeling it just yet but you will :)) and the economy as a whole will take many decades to fix if they can be at all.

So as horrible as it sounds I hope the bush and his administration is "cut short", or maybe a civil war starts betwene the N and the S again :( or maybe Bush is impeached for thirty two counts of treason (or something)

I am not trying to insult anyone on this board. Thanks for listening to hear my rant.

Cheers,
Boyd

NEUTRINOLAD

Thursday, November 4, 2004 11:36 AM

Quote:
There is a certain... Smugness... that many on the left seem to have. As if they "get it" and those on the right do not.

I do notice this in the left. Those on the left tend to assume I don't understand what they are saying, rather than admitting the possibility that I do understand, and I find an insurmountable flaw in their argument.
I also notice this on the right, which frequently takes the form of my being wrong because their faith instructs them that I am wrong, or some such circular argument based upon an essentially emotional appeal.
And both sides assume they possess exactly one half of the total possible viewpoints.
Yippee.
I give up.

FIREFLOOZYSUZIE

Thursday, November 4, 2004 12:57 PM

It's not "bile," Gruesome. It's outrage and sadness and despair. It's not the "difference of opinion." It's the appalling dismissal of FACTS.

What you are misreading as "hatred" is the genuine
anguish and frustration of REAL patriots who
are watching America being dismantled
and subverted by a handful of extremists.

This election proved that it isn't that
difficult to fool 52% of the people.
Folks believe that "the Left" are Christian
haters and "Bush bashers" and "Liberals"
because there has been a careful campaign
to portray us as such, to keep folks from
looking too carefully at WHY half of the
country and most of the world is appalled
at what Cheney, Ashcroft, Karl Rove, Bush
etc. have done in the past four years.

Why do you think 61% of the country mistakenly
believes that Iraq was involved in the 9/11
attack? Why do you think GW Bush spent his
recent campaign demonizing Kerry rather than
pointing to his own record? Do you even remember
the George W. Bush who ran in 2000? Well, we
do. He told America anything he thought would
get him elected, then he turned around and
pursued a much more radical agenda.

The propagandists would have you believe
that Bush represents morality and Christian
values, and that the folks opposing him
are unpatriotic secularist wackos. Actually, we
are mostly people who reject the propagandist line
and get our news from a plurality of REAL
sources. We are people who can put what
the Bush Administration HAS ACTUALLY DONE beside what George W. Bush SAYS.
This is a guy who gets political gain from "supporting the troops"...
while cutting Veteran Benefits, sending in
unprepared reservists, and instituting an
"emergency" backdoor draft. This is a guy
who says he's heading up a "War on Terror"
while blithely introducing terror to Iraq, ignoring the Geneva Convention, sending
"suspected terrorist sympathizers" to proxy torturers, and illegally detaining hundreds of people in Guantanamo Bay for YEARS without due process.

This is not Conservative vs. Liberal
(Bush is a radical, not a conservative) nor
is it Christian vs. the heathens.

This is the watchful vs. the willingly misled.

And the watchful have every good
reason to be outraged....and very, very worried.

*EDited because I shouldn't try to
write this early in the morning :-)*

GRUESOME

Thursday, November 4, 2004 2:33 PM

Quote:

What you are misreading as "hatred" is the genuine
anguish and frustration of REAL patriots who
are watching America being dismantled
and subverted by a handful of extremists.

I understand what you are saying, but do not believe that I am misreading your words and actions. You help fuel those that disagree by providing them with quotes and bullet points to illustrate their points. You help feed into their image of you rather than dismantling it.
At the end of the day, results are what matter and I have a pretty strong opinion that I may be better at getting people to understand my points by not denigrating theirs and by not calling them names or generalizing them to their face and thus belittling what they have to say.

When I came into THIS thread, I generalized the left because people ought to be able to "speak to their people" in a frank and open way. And what happened? I got called a republican and told the state of the country is my fault! Not only that, the person most udnerstanding of my point and most willing to discuss it rationally is a freakin REPUBLICAN. (Well, you haven't been so bad)

Quote:

Folks believe that "the Left" are Christian
haters and "Bush bashers" and "Liberals"
because there has been a careful campaign
to portray us as such

I think that is only a tiny portion of what the left allows to be done to it by not pointing out that Michael Moore is NOT representative of a great number of people on the left.

When people are not capable of critical self-analysis, they never grow.

You're a bright guy. Lets look at just your last post and judge its merits and ability to sway people NOT to preach to the choir, ok?

"It's the appalling dismissal of FACTS."

Your view.

"a handful of extremists."

Call people a name.

"This election proved that it isn't that
difficult to fool 52% of the people."

Call people gullible.

"Do you even remember
the George W. Bush who ran in 2000?"

Condescending.

"The propagandists"

namecalling

"This is the watchful vs. the willingly misled."

Condescending

"And the watchful have every good
reason to be outraged....and very, very worried."

YES! And exactly why the rhetoric needs to be designed to actually open peoples minds NOT piss them off. This isn't a debate! You don't win and the other person loses. You either learn something about them and how to talk better with them or you do not.

Because the alternative to changing peoples minds are silly abortive attempts at "getting out the vote" and "vote or die".

There were MORE than enough votes to be had amongst the current registrations. But rather than trying to honestly convince people in EFFECTIVE ways, everyone was trying to browbeat everyone else.

"Why do you think 61% of the country mistakenly believes that Iraq was involved in the 9/11 attack?"

Newsflash man, 40% of the country doesn't know who the Vice-President is. A lot of people don't know a lot of things. BUt it doesn't mean they want to be TOLD they are not too knowledgeable. Its all about sales...

Cheers,
Gruesome

RHYMEPHILE

Thursday, November 4, 2004 2:43 PM

Suze, the only thing you left out was the systematic rape and torture of our environment. Which will continue unabated for the next 4 years.

To the rest of the world: please don't judge us by the populist vote. There were plenty of us who voted against Bush and had hopes for a (relatively) peaceful resolution to all the rancor across the globe, a safer future for our children, and better lives for us all. We had a lot of hope.

All I can say is God help us.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

FIREFLOOZYSUZIE

Thursday, November 4, 2004 3:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
Suze, the only thing you left out was the systematic rape and torture of our environment. Which will continue unabated for the next 4 years.

Thank you for adding that, Rhyme.
Actually, I didn't put that in because
I was afraid that people who read my posts
both here and the OB were becoming
uncomfortable with my very pointed and
personal campaign to raise awareness of the
Bush's-backers-dump-toxins-and-cause-
cancer-rates-to-go-up issue.

In fact, this is a good time to appeal to
my Republican friends: Please ask your
leadership to reexamine the environmental
"policies" currently in place. The
poisoning of our own children should concern
everyone, from megacorporation CEOs to the
farmers in middle of the seemingly-pristine
heartland of this country. It's time to
recognize that relaxing pollution standards as a "favor" to Big Money has lasting, horrible,
irreversible effects. Contamination of soil,
water and air should NOT NOT NOT be a
partisan issue. We're ALL downstream/ downwind.

Please erase the tree-hugging, spotted-owl lovin'
hippie image of an environmentalist that some
of you have, and replace it with someone like me: Someone who has seen more bald kids undergoing chemotherapy than I ever wanted to imagine existed. Remember that it's the human race
we're trying to save, not some obscure species of amphibian. It's too late to save amphibians,
so I'm for being selfish and saving OURSELVES.

(Oh everyone is SO glad you reminded me
to go to my RANT, Rhyme...can you feel the
gratitude sweetie???)

FIREFLOOZYSUZIE

Thursday, November 4, 2004 3:09 PM

How kind of you to "condescend" to pointing
out all the problems with my post, Gruesome.
It's really valuable to have your opinion
that my rhetoric is more inflammatory than
*your* rhetoric!

(Now, don't forget to complain about
my use of sarcasm! And be sarcastic while
you do so, please, so we can keep this
pointless exhange going indefinitely!!!)

WAIT and I Just have to edit to include this last thing. You said, You're a bright guy. Lets look at just your last post...

Then later, you called me "man."

With all due respect to Johnny Cash and his
hit song....HOW could you assume I was a GUY?
How many men named "Suzie" do you know? LOL.

GRUESOME

Thursday, November 4, 2004 4:49 PM

I apologize if I am showing my age by my use of the term "man". It is a generic term. Like "he" in shakespeare. Don't make something out of nothing. I didn't really notice your name contained the word Suzie at the end anyway. SHould I also assume you are a floozy?

And I am not condescending to you. I am trying to point out the points of your posts that would not be taken well and would likely instead get the hackles up of those that you would, in theory, be trying to convince of your issues.

It is becoming clear though that some people here have little to no interest in any constructive criticism and cannot distinguish it from ad hominem attacks of the right.

So, what we have is a group of people that share many of the same beliefs that seem to want to find solace in bickering with one another. Thats great. I guess that I am becoming surprised that there was only a 3.5 million vote margin.

Is it honestly too much to ask that someone could read my words and not attribute double meaning and hidden insult to them?

Can you not recognize when someone is not attacking your beliefs but perhaps suggesting your delivery sucks?

If you can't hold this conversation with me, why on earth would you ever bother trying to discuss politics with someone that doesn't share your views? Because you like arguing? If so, thats fine, but say so please and I'll stop wasting my time trying to raise the level of conversation to one that might actually accomplish something.

Cheers,
Gruesome

KNIBBLET

Thursday, November 4, 2004 5:27 PM

*sigh*

The young didn't turn out to vote. When they find themselves drafted to fight George's oil wars, perhaps they'll regret the oversight.

One pundit made the observation that the " 'Nascar Dads' felt that they shared more core values with Bush". I never realized that spending 3 decades as a coke sniffing drunk was a value that the nascar types admired.

We seriously need to overhaul the electoral college. We also need to once again seperate church and state and reinstitute a free press.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

CSSTROWBRIDGE

Thursday, November 4, 2004 5:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gruesome:
I find it typical and annoying that when people on the right disagree with those on the left, they usually put it in terms of disagreeing with the left's position.

Whereas people on the left, as further evidenced here, tend to insult the intelligence of those on the right instead of just accepting that they disagree with our views.

Yep, that's why you never hear the right calling people, 'liberal' like it's some kind of insult. No wait, that happens all the time. Hell, Republicans were calling Kerry a Massachusetts Liberal, and no one in the media called them on it.

Imagine if Kerry called Bush a, 'typical Texas hick.' You know there would be outrage.

C.S.Strowbridge
News Editor / Movie Reviewer / Talentless Hack
http://members.shaw.ca/csstrowbridge/MainPage.htm

JASONZZZ

Thursday, November 4, 2004 5:42 PM

Dear Gruesome:

I am so truly sorry that you have been reduced to a mere caricature of what others believe you to be based on your selected stance and beliefs. It's difficult when folks just aren't willing to debate on the merits of the issue and then to just leave it all well said and done when the issues are irreducible to nothing but deeply held positions and beliefs. We are all good hardworking Americans who wish well on ourselves, our families, our friends and neighbors. There must be some common ground we can hold onto without resorting to just calling each other dummies and liars.

Let's face it, whether you voted for Bush or not. The nation and the elections have not been about leadership. We haven't had good leaders where we as citizens can be confident about their ability to make good sound decisions (that's from either party). Good leaders have the ability to unite people, to have you at least trust them and respect them when they make decisions - even when you disagree with them. They are some one that you can admire - whether it's charisma or ability to actually execute and accomplish something. Without that lately, thus we all will be continually bickering about their decisions - whatever the issues, however the decision lie.

We've all been to reduced to sets of issues - and there isn't anything wrong with that; except that we all get labeled based on those issues. But while we are not all single issue minded folks, we are forced to make decisions weighting the importance of all of these complex sets of issues. We are not all evangelical Christians and we are not all tree-huggers, but we ended up picking those candidates that represent some other elements of our beliefs who also happen to carry along caricatures of those other things too. Sadly, we really have these two choices.

or do we? Why didn't we vote Nader? Why wasn't McCain on the roll?

If everyone wants to keep bickering in the next 4 years and do nothing else productive. That's their rights as Americans. Or you can start now and make real changes in the system so that we aren't as devisive, so that we have better candidates, so that our political parties don't suck as much.

Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs a new development system. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283

FIREFLOOZYSUZIE

Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:05 PM

Your calling me "man" would not have occasioned the slightest comment if not for the fact that you made an *earlier* assumption of masculine gender.

I also frequently sprinkle my speech with terms like "groovy" and "man", if only to elicit eye-rolling from my teenager. Like, I get it, Gruesome, man. It's cool.

HOWEVER there is that condescending "You're a BRIGHT GUY (but)..." line a few paragraphs
earlier. :-P

uh, so not gender neutral.

also, so clearly patronizing
(as was your scolding, "Don't make something
out of nothing" )

Your entire last post: Condescending, spoiling for fight while arguing that OTHERS should cease

And, yes, you can assume I'm a floozy.
But only in the damn-your-husband-is-so-lucky!
connotation ;-)

GRUESOME

Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:38 PM

Quote:

"You're a BRIGHT GUY (but)..." line a few paragraphs
earlier. :-P

uh, so not gender neutral.

D'oh! True. That was me not paying attention to the name of the poster to whom I was replying.

Quote:

Your entire last post: Condescending, spoiling for fight while arguing that OTHERS should cease

I think that is how you choose to interpret it. I really do not have any interest in fighting with you. QUite the opposite, I am hoping to tone the rhetoric down to a point in which people can just talk. I think that you view my words in the worst possible light, it seems. Were we to compare our postings though, can you imagine how I might take your words then?

Quote:

And, yes, you can assume I'm a floozy.
But only in the damn-your-husband-is-so-lucky!
connotation ;-)

Heh... I have no defense or retort to that!

Cheers,
Gruesome

VETERAN

Friday, November 5, 2004 4:10 AM

Quote:
I don't really know anyone that likes him though.

Would it then be your contention that it is good
to emulate the likes of him?

You bring up an obvious example of someone on the right that is an attacker. But, his behavior is in the minority of those on the right in my opinion.

I'm not condoning this type of behavior on either side. I meant the Hannity crack to be tounge in cheek. However, it doesn't matter that he's in the minority or not, point is that he is a well known, popular, conservative who does resort to calling liberals stupid, or even stating that they morally bankrupt.

Quote:
This election was typical, IMO. the drive wasn't to try to debate the merits of positions and perhaps change anyone's view with CALM conversation, it was to shanghai new voters to march lock-step into the booths to just outnumber them.

You're right, this election was politics as usual. I don't think it's ever been about calm conversation.

RUE

Friday, November 5, 2004 4:40 AM

"I've certainly seen that. But honestly, to my eye, that rhetoric seems like last resort from most on the right."

Actually, the Bush campaign made a complete theme out of PERSONALLY attacking Kerry - does the phrase flip-flopper ring a bell?

I thought the Kerry campaign could credibly be described as issue-oriented: the war (how's that working for you?), the economy, personal freedoms etc.

GRUESOME

Friday, November 5, 2004 7:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"I've certainly seen that. But honestly, to my eye, that rhetoric seems like last resort from most on the right."

Actually, the Bush campaign made a complete theme out of PERSONALLY attacking Kerry - does the phrase flip-flopper ring a bell?

I thought the Kerry campaign could credibly be described as issue-oriented: the war (how's that working for you?), the economy, personal freedoms etc.

You and I did not watch the same election take place. Kerry's "issues" were 2 sides of every one, so from the that perspective, I suppose you are right, Kerry had twice as many issues.

As far as attacking Kerry, it was the 501(??) groups doing the damage there aside from the bush folks clinging to the "flip-flop" theme that Kerry consistently handed to them on a silver platter.

I heard far more venomous things coming from the left. Perhaps not always from Kerry's mouth, but for someone that constantly asked Bush to apologize for what the swift-boat veterans were saying, I sure didn't see him apologizing for people like Michael Moore calling bush a murderer and guilty of treason on Kerry's behalf.
Whether you like it or not, people judge you not only on your own merits, but also by the company you keep. I think you delude yourself if you think that Kerry did enough to distance himself from the vitriol spewing out of the left coast.

And for every one Hannity, there were 10 celebrities saying far worse about bush.

If rational people on the left could become the primary voice of it, then people like Hannity wouldn't seem appropriate on the right. As it is, he seems almost tame to me.

Cheers,
Gruesome

VETERAN

Saturday, November 6, 2004 9:24 PM

I have a problem with the Flop Flopper charge on most candidates. Even before this election. It implies that it's wrong to change one's mind. Aside from just trying to capture the popular opinion of an issue, it's good that political leaders have the capacity to change their mind or at least make compromises to get things done. I think Lincoln had a great quote on this. Something about if both sides of any issue are angry with you, you're probably right where you need to be.

Maybe Hannity, Limbaugh and their ilk are a minority but they get a lot of air time almost every day. And Hannity is anything but tame.

I think it's obvious that the The Swift Vote .. I mean the Swift Boat Vets are political schills. There is a lot of evidence that indicates that the Republican Party is actually behind them. Whether you agree with him or not at least Moore is doing what he does for a living, nobody asked him. Not to mention the Swift boat ads were placed on national television to see Moore's view point you buy a ticket.

RUE

Sunday, November 7, 2004 7:11 PM

Hey Tom,
I hope this helps answer your question about Afghanistan. You need to keep in mind the limitations of the available information:
most if not all of the NGOs (non-governmental organizations like the International Red Cross - IRC, Medecines sans Frontieres - Doctors without Borders) etc have pulled out of Afghanistan, and to my knowledge have not returned. Available satellite photo service was bought up by the US government (though Google recently acquired a satellite photo service that may include Afghanistan), and security is bad enough and the story old enough that reporters are no longer stationed across the country. So, much information comes as government press releases. There are stories that I certainly would like to have had a follow-up on: the multi-year drought and the war that had people eating grass and starving to death in remote valleys (is it over?), the halting and feeble start of weapons surrender by the warlords (do they still have their weapons?), security across Afghanistan (is it still lawless?), etc. If you do find additional information, I would appreciate it if you would post links, if they are available.

http://www.brookings.edu/iraqindex
Underneath the paragraph about iraqindex is a paragraph about the afghanistan index with a link. An unpdated PDF is available one or two links on from that.

RUE

Sunday, November 7, 2004 7:31 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/20/swift.assault/
"The swift boat group denies any direct contact with the RNC, the Bush White House or any Republican group."

But:
Following the public revelations that he worked (as legal cousel) for both the Bush campaign and SBVT, Ginsberg resigned. In his resignation letter to Bush he wrote “I have decided to resign as national counsel to your campaign to ensure that the giving of legal advice to decorated military veterans, which was entirely within the boundaries of the law, doesn't distract from the real issues upon which you and the country should be focusing”.

Kenneth Cordier - Former Bush-Cheney campaign advisor - forced to resign after appearing in Swift Boat Veterans for Bush commercial.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html "Records show that the group (SBVT) received the bulk of its initial financing from two men with ties to the president and his family - one a longtime political associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of the foundation for Mr. Bush's father's presidential library. A Texas publicist who once helped prepare Mr. Bush's father for his debate when he was running for vice president provided them with strategic advice."

It takes only the most rudimentary search to find scores of connections between SBVT and the Bush White House, his advisors, Republican donors, the campaign etc.