Puerto Rico - U.S. Virgin Islands

POSTED BY: SHINYGOODGUY
UPDATED: Saturday, July 25, 2026 15:29
VIEWED: 19862
PAGE 1 of 2

It amazes me that "our" dickhead president is off in a corner somewhere tweeting about football players, when there is a humanitarian crisis happening right before our very eyes...

and to make matters worse, they are American citizens in dire need of assistance. A disgustingly poor response from our Asshole-in-Chief to the
crisis in both Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands. But most emphatically, the crisis in Puerto Rico - an island that took on the evacuees from the Virgin Islands; a U.S. Commonwealth that did the neighborly thing and responded in the American way, by extending a hand to someone in need.

Yet, here we are.

Two people have died in a hospital; and this stupid motherfucker is tweeting about a protest. Where are this man's brains? These folks are American citizens, who's home has been devastated. Governor Cuomo did a
flyover in a helicopter, and where's Trump?...he's at home washing his toupee.


SGG

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I dunno, Shiney.

I tried to tell 'em in the Irma thread, but like most folks & our
so-called PotUS ... no one seems to get it:
Puerto Rico is a US protectorate; its inhabitants are US citizens
eventhough they don't live in the 50 states & mostly speak Spanish.
We are treating it like a Red-haired Stepchild.

The place has been neglected & impoverished for years, but many say
It has nothing to do with us.

I've also read that a couple of Navy ships have gone there to help.
What's needed is a fleet of freighters with emergency supplies.

The storm hit 'em a week ago. Help is overdue.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
I dunno, Shiney.

I tried to tell 'em in the Irma thread, but like most folks & our
so-called PotUS ... no one seems to get it:
Puerto Rico is a US protectorate; its inhabitants are US citizens
eventhough they don't live in the 50 states & mostly speak Spanish.
We are treating it like a Red-haired Stepchild.

The place has been neglected & impoverished for years, but many say
It has nothing to do with us.

I've also read that a couple of Navy ships have gone there to help.
What's needed is a fleet of freighters with emergency supplies.

The storm hit 'em a week ago. Help is overdue.


... oooOO}{OOooo ...

---

When hurricanes hit Texas, Louisiana, and Florida, Trump was there. But those states send Republican Congressmen to vote for Trump's plans, Congressmen who would be deeply offended if Trump did not help them out, Congressmen who would take revenge on Trump. Puerto Rico doesn't have a voting Congressman, which makes it, and its people, useless to Trump.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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"Where's the Clinton Foundation when you need it?" ~Puerto Rico, Sept 2017

"Where's the Clinton Foundation when you need it?" ~Haiti, circa 2010-2017

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
"Where's the Clinton Foundation when you need it?" ~Puerto Rico, Sept 2017

"Where's the Clinton Foundation when you need it?" ~Haiti, circa 2010-2017

---

Don't you mean the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation? With an income of 53 billion USD (2010), it could do more than The Clinton Foundation with an income of 142.8 million USD (2010). But the U.S.A. with an income of 18.75 trillion dollars could do more, as could China with 21.37 trillion dollars. If his Chief of Staff can't push him hard enough and Trump sits on his hands long enough, China might just come to the aid of Puerto Rico.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sure. Where's the Gates too? Where's Warren Buffet?


Yanno. There are a lot of people on the ground that are doing whatever they can to help out in this situation. The entire island was devastated. It's a tragedy of immense proprotions that isn't going to be fixed overnight. The only way to really get any meaningful aid right now is by barge, so until we invent warp drives for ships or teleportation devices this isn't going to be solved right away.

You people act as if nothing is being done.

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Incomplete Wiki notes:
"In 1898, following the Spanish–American War, the United States acquired Puerto Rico along with other Spanish colonies under the terms of the Treaty of Paris.
As a U.S. territory, American citizens residing on the island are disenfranchised at the national level and do not vote for president and vice president of the United States. Congress approved a local constitution, allowing U.S. citizens on the territory to elect a governor. A 2012 referendum showed a majority (54% of those who voted) disagreed with "the present form of territorial status", with full statehood the preferred option among those who voted for a change of status, although a significant number of people did not answer the second question of the referendum.
Another fifth referendum was held on June 11, 2017, with "Statehood" and "Independence/Free Association" initially as the only available choices. At the recommendation of the Department of Justice, an option for the "current territorial status" was added. The referendum showed an overwhelming support for statehood, with 97.18% voting for it, although the voter turnout had a historically low figure of only 22.99% of the registered voters casting their ballots."
In early 2017, the Puerto Rican government-debt crisis posed serious problems for the government. The outstanding bond debt had climbed to $70 billion at a time with 12.4% unemployment. ... By early August 2017, the debt was $72 billion with a 45% poverty rate.

    In 1947, the U.S. granted Puerto Ricans the right to democratically elect their own governor.
Hmmm. In 1950, there was a three-day revolt against the United States.
The Constitution of Puerto Rico was approved by a Constitutional Convention on February 6, 1952, and 82% of the voters in a March referendum.
During the 1950s and 1960s, Puerto Rico experienced rapid industrialization, due in large part to Operación Manos a la Obra ("Operation Bootstrap"), an offshoot of FDR's New Deal. It was intended to transform Puerto Rico's economy from agriculture-based to manufacturing-based to provide more jobs. Puerto Rico has become a major tourist destination, as well as a global center for pharmaceutical manufacturing.

Four plebiscites have been held since the late 20th century to resolve the political status. The 2012 referendum showed a majority (54% of the voters) in favor of a change in status, with full statehood the preferred option of those who wanted a change. Because there were almost 500,000 blank ballots in the 2012 referendum, creating confusion as to the voters' true desire, Congress decided to ignore the vote.

Yes, statehood has been considered, even voted on earlier this year.
I'm skipping that as this note is already too long for me to read.
It's also pretty confusing, as if "they" keep discussing PR's status
& what it should become, yet it remains in legal limbo.

Former Governor Aníbal Acevedo Vilá (2005–2009) is convinced that statehood is not the solution for either the U.S. or for Puerto Rico "for economic, identity and cultural reasons". He pointed out that voter turnout for the 2017 referendum was extremely low, and suggests that a different type of mutually-beneficial relationship should be found.
Governor Ricardo Rosselló is strongly in favor of statehood to help develop the economy and help to "solve our 500-year-old colonial dilemma ... Colonialism is not an option .... It’s a civil rights issue ... 3.5 million citizens seeking an absolute democracy," he told the news media. Benefits of statehood include an additional $10 billion per year in federal funds, the right to vote in presidential elections, higher Social Security and Medicare benefits, and a right for its government agencies and municipalities to file for bankruptcy. The latter is currently prohibited.
S

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12 ways we can get Trump to focus his attention on Puerto Rico
https://www.yahoo.com/news/12-ways-trump-focus-attention-193252599.htm
l

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
I dunno, Shiney.

I tried to tell 'em in the Irma thread, but like most folks & our
so-called PotUS ... no one seems to get it:
Puerto Rico is a US protectorate;

---

Not knocking you here Oon, but...if you didn't know anyone there, would you still have posted on it?

I don't know anyone who has ever been there, and something tells me they wouldn't care if America gets wiped off the map. From what I hear, the people don't want to be a state of the US, it's their politicians that do and only because they think it'll fix things easy. But, that's just what I gathered from comments the last time P.R. was brought up in the news a few years ago. I'm sure they wanna be a state NOW that they are in deep kimchi.

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Yup.

And I don't believe the stat that 50% of people knew what P.R.'s status was anyway. That number is a thinly veiled knock on the half of the country that voted for Trump, obviously.

Now everybody is an "expert" on P.R.'s status, when a few weeks ago nobody knew or gave a shit.

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by Wishimay:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
I dunno, Shiney.

I tried to tell 'em in the Irma thread, but like most folks & our
so-called PotUS ... no one seems to get it:
Puerto Rico is a US protectorate;

---

Not knocking you here Oon, but...if you didn't know anyone there, would you still have posted on it?

I don't know anyone who has ever been there, and something tells me they wouldn't care if America gets wiped off the map. From what I hear, the people don't want to be a state of the US, it's their politicians that do and only because they think it'll fix things easy. But, that's just what I gathered from comments the last time P.R. was brought up in the news a few years ago. I'm sure they wanna be a state NOW that they are in deep kimchi.

---

O, I know, Wishi!!
    And no one else in here ever hijacks a thread just to
air a fear/grievance or talk about themselves or family.

Stick to the topic; be objective ... I'll try to remember that. :)


When I find out what happened to my pal and his kitty, I'm
gonna post it in here anyways.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Curious responses from all. As far as Puerto Rico being a US Territory, I knew.
Actually it's a Commonwealth. There was also mention of the U.S. Virgin Islands, of course I expected no response.

There's also another territory that has recently been in the news regarding another deep boner by the Orange One - Guam. And finally, there's Northern Mariana Islands and American Samoa.

Quote:

---

Puerto Rico and the Northern Mariana Islands in the Pacific Ocean belong to the United States and have the status of Commonwealth, a legal and political status that is above a territory but still below a state. Commonwealth status once inevitably led to statehood, but such a progression is no longer automatic. Congress and the Commonwealth work together to fashion a political system that is acceptable to both parties.

---

SGG

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Oonjerah:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Wishimay:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
I dunno, Shiney.

I tried to tell 'em in the Irma thread, but like most folks & our
so-called PotUS ... no one seems to get it:
Puerto Rico is a US protectorate;

---

Not knocking you here Oon, but...if you didn't know anyone there, would you still have posted on it?

I don't know anyone who has ever been there, and something tells me they wouldn't care if America gets wiped off the map. From what I hear, the people don't want to be a state of the US, it's their politicians that do and only because they think it'll fix things easy. But, that's just what I gathered from comments the last time P.R. was brought up in the news a few years ago. I'm sure they wanna be a state NOW that they are in deep kimchi.

---

O, I know, Wishi!!
    And no one else in here ever hijacks a thread just to
air a fear/grievance or talk about themselves or family.

Stick to the topic; be objective ... I'll try to remember that. :)


When I find out what happened to my pal and his kitty, I'm
gonna post it in here anyways.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

---

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Puerto Ricans are American Citizens and have served in every war since WWI.

Puerto Ricans fought alongside the American colonists in the Revolutionary War, but they were under Spanish rule at the time. They have distinguished themselves in battle throughout their history. They have 4 Medal of Honor recipients. Puerto Ricans have served in the major branches of the Armed Forces.


SGG

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Yup.

And I don't believe the stat that 50% of people knew what P.R.'s status was anyway. That number is a thinly veiled knock on the half of the country that voted for Trump, obviously.

Now everybody is an "expert" on P.R.'s status, when a few weeks ago nobody knew or gave a shit.

---

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Puerto Ricans are American Citizens and have served in every war since WWI.

Puerto Ricans fought alongside the American colonists in the Revolutionary War, but they were under Spanish rule at the time. They have distinguished themselves in battle throughout their history. They have 4 Medal of Honor recipients. Puerto Ricans have served in the major branches of the Armed Forces.

I'd bet anything that Trump, the Dickhead-in-Chief, didn't have a fucking clue.


SGG

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Yup.

And I don't believe the stat that 50% of people knew what P.R.'s status was anyway. That number is a thinly veiled knock on the half of the country that voted for Trump, obviously.

Now everybody is an "expert" on P.R.'s status, when a few weeks ago nobody knew or gave a shit.

---

---

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Months ago, when my friend said he was moving from Nicaragua
to Puerto Rico, because it has a VA hospital ... that's when
I knew: Puerto Rico is connected to the USA some way, 'cause
it has a VA hospital. ... My friend had surgery there shortly
after he arrived.
Someone found a kitten on the road & gave it to him. I told
him, "We're too old to be adopting pets. They might outlive us
& who would take care of them?" He agreed, but there was no
turning back then.
He laughed when Harvey came by & did only minor damage.
I got an eMail from him on the 19th. That's all he wrote.
Then Maria hit. Not knowing the extent of the damage at first,
I started checking his Facebook page twice a day ... but every
kind of communication is down except passenger pigeons.

(sigh)
... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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I wasn't saying you can't post about people you know, I was discussing why P.R. is the US's red-headed stepchild. As much as 6ix agreeing with me makes me nauseous, all the people tweeting that Trump doesn't care about P.R. only care because they know someone there.

Laughing at a two hundred mile wide tornado is bad judgment. Living on an island with little resources or ability to escape from in imminent danger is bad judgment.

I seriously hope your friend is ok. But just like the people who live in mobile homes in hurricane prone areas, I'm not sure other people's bad judgment is my responsibility. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to live on an island, but I don't because I couldn't afford to, and I couldn't afford a decent structure and lots of backup supplies. That's just common sense.

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And.... Are you showing me your Google-Fu? I could probably type just "Puerto Rico" in the Google search bar and get that paragraph on the first page of hits. Doesn't mean what I said isn't true.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Puerto Ricans are American Citizens and have served in every war since WWI.

Puerto Ricans fought alongside the American colonists in the Revolutionary War, but they were under Spanish rule at the time. They have distinguished themselves in battle throughout their history. They have 4 Medal of Honor recipients. Puerto Ricans have served in the major branches of the Armed Forces.


SGG

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Yup.

And I don't believe the stat that 50% of people knew what P.R.'s status was anyway. That number is a thinly veiled knock on the half of the country that voted for Trump, obviously.

Now everybody is an "expert" on P.R.'s status, when a few weeks ago nobody knew or gave a shit.

---

---

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@Six: "... P.R.'s status, when a few weeks ago nobody knew or gave a shit."


Indeed. All I knew about it is
1. It's an island;
2. My friend is living there;
3. He got the help he needed from the VA;
4. He sounds fairly pleased his new home. So good on him!

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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As I continue to follow the story in Puerto Rico, I find a lot of very
discouraging headlines, such as these two:

In Puerto Rico, Containers Full Of Goods Sit Undistributed At Ports
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/09/28/554297787/puerto-ric
o-relief-goods-sit-undistributed-at-ports

Puerto Rico, short on fuel, cannot deliver food and medicine to the victims of Hurricane Maria
•4,500 containers/trucks filled with supplies are stuck at the Port of San Juan.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/28/puerto-ricos-fuel-supply-breaks-down-i
n-the-wake-of-marias-devastation.html

There must be an amazing degree of incompetence there for the situation to be this way.
Is it the leaders' fault, the foremen, the workers?
The people are in desperate need of supplies; the supplies have arrived, now it's
intermission - time out?, "Sorry folks, nothing can be done"?

It doesn't compute.

But apparently, PR was in pretty bad shape before the Storm.

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That does sound terrible. I can't imagine what the people there are going through.

I've heard stories from people who have helped out in similar situations in the past that go the same way. It's just a terrible situation. I don't think there's anybody there that's lording over all the fuel for themselves and are to blame for things not going to help people who need it. Did anybody bother sending an oil tanker or two along with all of those supplies? The infrastructure is gone. I'm sure even if there was fuel it will take a long time to get the goods to people because of the devastation that must be littering what used to be streets. You could probably travel half a mile and then have to stop for half a day to clear out the next stretch of road. Add to all of this that they're surrounded by ocean. It's not as if they can send a bunch of bobcats in to clear up the debris. Most of that work I'm sure is being done by hand.

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Bad judgment!? Wow....now that's real deep. So the millions of people that live in California along the San Andreas fault, and that live near forests have "bad judgment" - I'll remember that next time I hear of an earthquake or forest fire in California.


SGG

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Wishimay:
I wasn't saying you can't post about people you know, I was discussing why P.R. is the US's red-headed stepchild. As much as 6ix agreeing with me makes me nauseous, all the people tweeting that Trump doesn't care about P.R. only care because they know someone there.

Laughing at a two hundred mile wide tornado is bad judgment. Living on an island with little resources or ability to escape from in imminent danger is bad judgment.

I seriously hope your friend is ok. But just like the people who live in mobile homes in hurricane prone areas, I'm not sure other people's bad judgment is my responsibility. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to live on an island, but I don't because I couldn't afford to, and I couldn't afford a decent structure and lots of backup supplies. That's just common sense.

---

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Yeah, what you said is true.


SGG

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
And.... Are you showing me your Google-Fu? I could probably type just "Puerto Rico" in the Google search bar and get that paragraph on the first page of hits. Doesn't mean what I said isn't true.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Puerto Ricans are American Citizens and have served in every war since WWI.

Puerto Ricans fought alongside the American colonists in the Revolutionary War, but they were under Spanish rule at the time. They have distinguished themselves in battle throughout their history. They have 4 Medal of Honor recipients. Puerto Ricans have served in the major branches of the Armed Forces.


SGG

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Yup.

And I don't believe the stat that 50% of people knew what P.R.'s status was anyway. That number is a thinly veiled knock on the half of the country that voted for Trump, obviously.

Now everybody is an "expert" on P.R.'s status, when a few weeks ago nobody knew or gave a shit.

---

---

---

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That "pretty bad shape" that you mention is a fiscal fiasco of millions of dollars owed to American banks and Wall Street, from the little I understand about the situation before Maria hit. But we're talking about a natural disaster, people possibly dying, which includes the elderly and newborns that can't fend for themselves. Hospitals have generators but they need gas to run them. The basic necessities are needed - food, water, shelter. Nothing more than that.

And, despite Wish's rather interesting comment regarding "bad judgment," I do not think along those lines. For some reason, the United States government chose Puerto Rico to be, first a territory, then a Commonwealth. That "island in the middle of the ocean," as the Dumpster so aptly put it, is significant enough for the U.S.A. to give it consideration, that I hesitate to think....why? Anywho, here we are. The U.S. is stupid enough to give this little island in the middle of the ocean Commonwealth status (and once considered making it a state). Oh and despite what Six thinks, they were given a choice and voted to become a state. What has happened to that is anybody's guess.

So, like it or not....Puerto Ricans are American citizens. They pay taxes and serve in the military. Let's see the Donald say that.


SGG

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Oonjerah:

As I continue to follow the story in Puerto Rico, I find a lot of very
discouraging headlines, such as these two:

In Puerto Rico, Containers Full Of Goods Sit Undistributed At Ports
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/09/28/554297787/puerto-ric
o-relief-goods-sit-undistributed-at-ports

Puerto Rico, short on fuel, cannot deliver food and medicine to the victims of Hurricane Maria
•4,500 containers/trucks filled with supplies are stuck at the Port of San Juan.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/28/puerto-ricos-fuel-supply-breaks-down-i
n-the-wake-of-marias-devastation.html

There must be an amazing degree of incompetence there for the situation to be this way.
Is it the leaders' fault, the foremen, the workers?
The people are in desperate need of supplies; the supplies have arrived, now it's
intermission - time out?, "Sorry folks, nothing can be done"?

It doesn't compute.

But apparently, PR was in pretty bad shape before the Storm.

---

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Six, let me fill you in:

The roads are strewn with debris, power lines, knocked down trees and pieces of houses, concrete and otherwise. Roofs literally blown off. Local bridges that connect small towns to main roads are partially or completely destroyed, making delivery of goods and services nearly impossible.

I saw a video of a man who was reunited with his sister after nearly a week of not knowing whether or not she was alive. A grandmother is rationing water and crackers to her grandchildren (that water was obtained through an ingenious PVC pipe configuration capturing local river water by a local mechanic from the town). There is gas in the gas stations, but, due to power grid failure, is hard to come by.
People line up for hours to get a couple of gallons per person to run generators and for the cars not ruined by the flood. There's so many horror stories about survival coming out of there.

Puerto Rico as a whole, accepted evacuees from the Virgin Islands devastated by Irma. Neighbors are helping neighbors (a Puerto Rican trait). Jennifr Lopez donated a million dollars, as did Alex Rodriguez (who isn't Puerto Rican), so did Pitbull, a local rapper named Daddy Yankee, actress Rosie Perez (who has family there), latin singer Marc Anthony as well. It was announced that Jay-Z and others are going to organize a concert to raise money for relief.

I saw a video on Facebook where a truck driver was desperately trying to reach there to volunteer to drive the trucks filled with food, medicine and water left on the docks. But he and the doctor that was traveling with him have been denied passage to PR. The people there are in need of truck drivers and medical people - doctors, nurses and paramedics. Who the fuck is running things over there? Last I heard the Army has been deployed. Finally some action.

These folks are survivors though, and I believe they'll be okay. They will live off the land until time comes that they can live somewhat as they did before Maria.


SGG

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
That does sound terrible. I can't imagine what the people there are going through.

I've heard stories from people who have helped out in similar situations in the past that go the same way. It's just a terrible situation. I don't think there's anybody there that's lording over all the fuel for themselves and are to blame for things not going to help people who need it. Did anybody bother sending an oil tanker or two along with all of those supplies? The infrastructure is gone. I'm sure even if there was fuel it will take a long time to get the goods to people because of the devastation that must be littering what used to be streets. You could probably travel half a mile and then have to stop for half a day to clear out the next stretch of road. Add to all of this that they're surrounded by ocean. It's not as if they can send a bunch of bobcats in to clear up the debris. Most of that work I'm sure is being done by hand.

---

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Listen, I'm not trying to be a smartass here, but I personally know (or knew) 5 Puerto Rican men who served in the military:

2 older men who served in Korea. 2 who served in Vietnam and one who served in Iraq.
Oh and a woman who also served in Iraq (she now has a son who joined the Marines).


SGG

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
And.... Are you showing me your Google-Fu? I could probably type just "Puerto Rico" in the Google search bar and get that paragraph on the first page of hits. Doesn't mean what I said isn't true.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Puerto Ricans are American Citizens and have served in every war since WWI.

Puerto Ricans fought alongside the American colonists in the Revolutionary War, but they were under Spanish rule at the time. They have distinguished themselves in battle throughout their history. They have 4 Medal of Honor recipients. Puerto Ricans have served in the major branches of the Armed Forces.


SGG

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Yup.

And I don't believe the stat that 50% of people knew what P.R.'s status was anyway. That number is a thinly veiled knock on the half of the country that voted for Trump, obviously.

Now everybody is an "expert" on P.R.'s status, when a few weeks ago nobody knew or gave a shit.

---

---

---

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Puerto Ricans are human beings, just like the rest of us. I don't buy into any talk about how they have "noble traits" or any such nonsense. There's just as many shitty Puerto Ricans as there are any other race, and stories of rich celebrities donating cash isn't going to change that.


You're not "filling me in" about anything. I already know what is going on down there, and I already said what you just said to me. It's a terrible, terrible clusterfuck on that island right now. A real life nightmare. I feel sorry for them.

I feel sorry for any people you personally know and care about that are going through it. It sucks. I'm just sick of people exploiting every event under the sun for political agendas. At least 90% of Americans had no idea what Puerto Rico's status was before this event happened. I'm willing to be that even now more then 60% of them couldn't even point out PR on a map if you took their smartphone away from them.

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Google: 195 countries

"There are 195 countries in the world today. This total comprises 193 countries
that are member states of the United Nations and 2 countries that are non-member
observer states: the Holy See and the State of Palestine."

Pretty sure I never heard of half of them.

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Google: 195 countries

"There are 195 countries in the world today. This total comprises 193 countries
that are member states of the United Nations and 2 countries that are non-member
observer states: the Holy See and the State of Palestine."


Pretty sure I never heard of half of them.

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---

Thank you for illustrating the point, Oonj. :)

Holy See, Holy Do???

I never even knew that's what the Pope Palace was called until today. Never knew that only two entities were not part of the U.N. as well.

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WHat this tells me (along with Katrina) is that, for a disaster of truly monstrous proportions .... you're on your own, for at least two weeks, maybe three. The idea of preparing for 72 hours is hogwash. It's going to be you and your neighbors, digging out, for the foreseeable future.

The only entity large enough, and with the equipment and skill set big enough, to handle emergencies which involve millions of people is the National Guard and the Corps of Engineers.

A TRULY proactive stance, for PR, or New Orleans, or LA (buried under earthquake rubble) would look like this ....

Two days before the hurricane strikes

We will need to assess the island's needs in absence of reliable communication, we need ___________ transport helicopters and crew to overfly the island multiple times, identifying remote or inaccessible areas and estimate damage. If possible, land the aircraft and speak with the people to ID their critical needs.

There will be up to 3 million people at risk. Everyone will need ten gallons of fresh water for a week. Start by gathering up the first 30 million gallons, stage our water purification units plus all ancillary necessary fuel to be transported to nearest unaffected staging area by the end of the first two days.

Hospitals and other critical services will need generators and fuel. Estimate the number and size of generators. Transport to the staging area. We will helicopter in the supplies and staff if necessary into the affected area from there.

There are _________ planned recipients of water, generators fuel and staff. This will require ________ transport helicopters with a radius of ________ miles which can make _________flights a day. All identified areas of need to be supplies in the first three days.

Roads will be impassible. We will need bulldozers, earthmoving equipment, Corps engineers to build bridges. We will develop staging areas across the island (city) where equipment and fuel and crew can be landed; they will work outward towards the nearest accessible main road."


Anyway, you get the idea. The response doesn't HAVE to be slow-moving, ponderous, and reactive. It COULD be made effective- ready and beginning work, on site in 48 hours, instead of this drip-drip-drip of niggardly, reluctant help.

But seeing as how the Federal government can't seem to do anything but bomb people, if you live in a hazard-prone area, and it's a hazard that could affect over 100,000 people, better be prepared to tough it out for two weeks or more on your own.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Google: 195 countries

"There are 195 countries in the world today. This total comprises 193 countries
that are member states of the United Nations and 2 countries that are non-member
observer states: the Holy See and the State of Palestine."


Pretty sure I never heard of half of them.

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---

And Trump is at war with all of them. All but Russia that is.

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I've never argued that his wife shouldn't take away his phone privileges.

That being said, I don't really view this as the "attack" that the MSM is portraying it as.

Quote:

---

"Such poor leadership ability by the mayor of San Juan, and others in Puerto Rico, who are not able to get their workers to help." "They want everything to be done for them when it should be a community effort,"

---

Sometimes the truth hurts. That doesn't make the truth an attack.

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Are there other people up to their waists looking, or is she doing it on her own, or worse yet for a photo op?

A picture of her looking for people doesn't say whether she's an effective leader or not. That is almost completely besides the point.


Maybe your twitter account should be disabled. Censorship much?

I don't like a lot of his tweets either, and he should rein it in. I wouldn't want to live in a country where the President's Twitter account was disabled though. That would mean that nobody was safe from censorship.

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Quote:

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There's just as many shitty Puerto Ricans as there are any other race, and stories of rich celebrities donating cash isn't going to change that.

---

There are more than enough SHITTY fucking white people who think their shit don't stink, throughout the fucking world. Just like the shitty fucks in Houston, Florida or Washington D.C. for that matter.

What the fuck does that prove?

I'm talking about the good people in general, both here in the U.S. and in Puerto Rico. What exactly is your problem with me even mentioning that there are good people everywhere? And yes, there are bad, evil motherfuckers who don't give a shit.
Fuck 'em - the good people will win out every fucking time. Pure and simple.

Really 90%!? Political agenda!? Yeah Trump likes to exploit it at every opportunity.
Shame really. And yeah, the island is so insignificant that the United States government ignored it back in 1898, when they took it from Spain, who also couldn't find it on the map if they tried. So yeah, it's not important at all. And there's Wall Street, they have much trouble finding it as well. And all those major corporations, they need Google Earth as well to find this tiny island.

Don't worry, you'll get nothing more from me.


SGG

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Puerto Ricans are human beings, just like the rest of us. I don't buy into any talk about how they have "noble traits" or any such nonsense. There's just as many shitty Puerto Ricans as there are any other race, and stories of rich celebrities donating cash isn't going to change that.


You're not "filling me in" about anything. I already know what is going on down there, and I already said what you just said to me. It's a terrible, terrible clusterfuck on that island right now. A real life nightmare. I feel sorry for them.

I feel sorry for any people you personally know and care about that are going through it. It sucks. I'm just sick of people exploiting every event under the sun for political agendas. At least 90% of Americans had no idea what Puerto Rico's status was before this event happened. I'm willing to be that even now more then 60% of them couldn't even point out PR on a map if you took their smartphone away from them.

---

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The response by some here is just a by product of believing that terrible fuck who's occupying the Oval Office. He belittles others to lift himself up and stroke his own ego, among other things, and satisfy his followers, who follow blindly and without question - you know, like sheep (to the slaughter).


SGG

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Google: 195 countries

"There are 195 countries in the world today. This total comprises 193 countries
that are member states of the United Nations and 2 countries that are non-member
observer states: the Holy See and the State of Palestine."


Pretty sure I never heard of half of them.

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---

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I don't have any problem with you talking about good people.

Look at your phrasing. Then look at your last response to me just seething with mixed feelings of hatered and guilt about white people. That's where I'm coming from.

I'm sure there are some great people on the island. I'm sure there's a LOT of shitty people on the island too.

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Bullshit, I call bullshit. I repeated exactly what you said. There are shitty fucking people in this world. Fuck shitty people! Every last one of them. We don't need to mention them because, as we all know, they exist.....why, oh why do we need to acknowledge them, they do enough fucking damage.

Now is the time for good people to step up. Pure and fucking simple!


SGG

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
I don't have any problem with you talking about good people.

Look at your phrasing. Then look at your last response to me just seething with mixed feelings of hatered and guilt about white people. That's where I'm coming from.

I'm sure there are some great people on the island. I'm sure there's a LOT of shitty people on the island too.

---

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Let me break it down further...the majority of the people who live on the island are of Hispanic descent...there are others who also live there, white, black, Asian, etc. So your comment about shitty people goes to race now, doesn't it?

I took it along those lines to prove a point. You have shitty people everywhere, white, black, Asian, Hispanic, you name it, we have it. And so, I said what I said in response to your comment. Truth, as you have said, hurts. But I was speaking of good people, and yes there are people there from FEMA and now the Army. Good!

No one, except you, was talking about the negative. I am not there so I don't know what's happening on the ground, but I have seen video on Facebook from people on the ground, and those who are trying to reach there to help. GOOD FUCKING PEOPLE...
Like I said, a trucker and a doctor looking to reach the island to help. They stated that they were Puerto Ricans looking to help.

As for the evil fucks of this world, again I say, FUCK 'EM. I couldn't care less about them. You trying to put words in my mouth, well, I rebuke that effort.


SGG

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
I don't have any problem with you talking about good people.

Look at your phrasing. Then look at your last response to me just seething with mixed feelings of hatered and guilt about white people. That's where I'm coming from.

I'm sure there are some great people on the island. I'm sure there's a LOT of shitty people on the island too.

---

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At 6StringJoker: You are petty and immature. You don't have anything interesting or useful to say. All you do is try to invalidate everyone else. Not much of a contribution, is it?

All you do is try to invalidate everyone else. Does that make you feel Superior? Because if it does, then you are truly pathetic.

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Anyway, you get the idea. The response doesn't HAVE to be slow-moving, ponderous, and reactive. It COULD be made effective- ready and beginning work, on site in 48 hours, instead of this drip-drip-drip of niggardly, reluctant help.

But seeing as how the Federal government can't seem to do anything but bomb people, if you live in a hazard-prone area, and it's a hazard that could affect over 100,000 people, better be prepared to tough it out for two weeks or more on your own.

---

https://andrewtobias.com/puerto-ricos-3-4-million-american-citizens/

All Americans should be horrified by the depth of the tragedy in Puerto Rico. While we can’t forget our friends who are suffering in Texas and Florida — especially in the Keys — the Puerto Rican tragedy is on a different scale.

. . . The apocalyptic destruction combined with large-scale suffering reminds me of the scenes of devastation and isolation I saw after Hurricane Andrew demolished the suburbs south of Miami in August 1992. . . . In the end, the U.S. Army was required to bring order to the madness.

. . . civilian systems for dealing with a major disaster cannot handle a cataclysm, no matter the skill of the administrators or the intensity of the effort.

. . . The U.S. military is increasingly becoming involved in the Puerto Rican response effort, which is a good sign, but the comparisons with the eventual Andrew response are stark. The Andrew catastrophe zone was, perhaps, 250 square miles and involved about 350,000 people — closer to 100,000 after those that could resettle elsewhere did. It took about 20,000 troops and military-support personnel to provide security, housing, communications, and other critical services after Andrew. They were still operating the Homestead tent city eight months after the storm.

Puerto Rico is about 3,500 square miles and home to about 3.4 million people. Having seen firsthand the crisis that developed in the first few weeks after Andrew, and the seeming endlessness of the 1992 disaster zone, it is impossible for me to imagine the scope of the calamity engulfing Puerto Rico. And, having learned that only the military has the ability to deliver men, materiel, organization and leadership in the time frame required, I am left to wonder why that Andrew lesson wasn’t applied to this catastrophic situation, which is at least an order of magnitude larger.

FEMA should have planned for this possible, foreseeable — and now entirely real — catastrophe the week before Maria hit, not the week after. If 20,000 troops were required in Homestead, a much larger force is required in Puerto Rico.

And what an opportunity to put Puerto Rican American citizens to work building modern, resilient infrastructure for the next 100 years — an effort that in itself would kick start their troubled economy . . . and for far less than we’ve spent trying to build Iraq.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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I'm not invalidating anybody else. I'm just not going to sit here and feel like somehow the shit that went down over there is my fault because I'm a white dude that voted for Trump.

I didn't make this about race. Other people did. I've got to hear about "Puerto Rican" traits about neighbors helping neighbors as if there aren't any white people who do the same fucking thing when something awful happens.



THIS is what the Democratic party has done to the country with its identity politics. Everything is about race or sex or some other identity bullshit now.

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
I'm not invalidating anybody else. . . . THIS is what the Democratic party has done to the country with its identity politics. Everything is about race or sex or some other identity bullshit now.

---

You missed one characteristic: money. Responding to a hurricane in Puerto Rico with even half as much generosity as Hurricane Andrew (1992) in Florida will cost so many billions of dollars that it will interfere with Trump's planned tax cut FOR HIMSELF. America cannot afford to reduce the inheritance tax for the Trump family estate to zero and cut the Trump family's quarterly income tax payments and also pay for Puerto Rico. Trump knows this, I know this, and now you know this. That is why Trump is whining about the Puerto Ricans. Trump won't get his personal tax cut because of them. It is not about identity politics. It's about Trump's money.

www.cnn.com/2017/09/30/us/puerto-rico-responds-to-trump-tweets/index.h
tml

Trump’s “Give the Rich a Break” Tax Plan
https://angrybearblog.com/2017/09/trumps-give-the-rich-a-break-tax-pla
n.html

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6StringJoker: "Everything is about race or sex or some
other identity bullshit now."

Second: "You missed one characteristic: money."

Oonj: Right! Most things are about money. The only
concern that trumps money is survival.

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Trump cannot reform the tax code in his family's favor if Puerto Rico absorbs tax money. Trump wants to pretend that he is not a beneficiary of changes in the Code that particularly benefit the ultra-wealthy.

That comes to the surface now because of his claims in an Indianapolis speech that he would not receive any benefit from the so-called “reform” tax “framework” put out by Trump and the GOP leadership. We know from 2005 returns that he has, at least in that year, had to pay $31 million in Alternative Minimum Taxes (AMT) in a year when he would otherwise have paid very little in taxes. That is, in fact, the purpose of the AMT–to force wealthy taxpayers to pay some tax on their incomes when they otherwise have the ability to take advantage of so many loopholes that they would get off pretty much tax free. So we know that Trump lied when he said in Indianapolis that he would not get a benefit from his own tax proposal. His tax proposal would eliminate the AMT backstop for wealthy payment of at least some taxes. That would directly benefit Trump. He lied.

Trump would also directly benefit from the elimination of the Estate Tax. That is a tax that is very low at this point, because of decades of GOP whittling away at it to reduce it to zero on behalf of their wealthy donors. When a married couple with $11 million in assets die, their estate would not pay any estate tax, because there is an exemption for the first $11 million for a couple. On the rest of the estate above $11 million (a size of estate of those in the top 1% of the distribution), the tax rate is now exceedingly low–only 35%. Trump’s plan would reduce it to zero. He said in the Indianapolis speech that eliminating the estate tax would help middle class people, small family farms, and small businesses. He lied. Only the wealthy pay any estate tax (see above). Very few small businesses and family farms are subject to the estate tax at all–estimates say there would be only about 80 in a given calendar year at this point. Of those that are subject to it, the amount subject to the estate tax is only the excess over the exemption amount. And family farms get 14 years to pay off any tax like that the heirs might owe, through a provision for installment payment intended to help preserve family farms and allow them to pay the tax due, if any, over time out of the operating profits of the business. So, again, Trump lied.

Trump also would likely benefit huugely from the reduction of rates on corporations, through getting more dividends out of the even higher corporate profits that would result (to the extent that he has investments in corporate stock, which are likely substantial, since most of the financial assets in this country are owned by those in the very tip-top of the income and wealth distribution). So, again, Trump lied.

Trump would also likely benefit bigly from the reduction of rates on pass-through income from real estate partnerships and hedge funds. The Trump empire is clearly in real estate, and there are likely quite a few partnerships in the structure of the Trump companies. Since otherwise passthrough income is currently taxed at the individual partner’s personal income tax rate, a 25% rate on income that would currently be taxed at a 39.6% rate (including the tax on investment income), is a 14.6% lower rate or more than a 1/3 reduction in the tax rate on the income. So, again, Trump lied.

https://angrybearblog.com/2017/09/trumps-refusal-to-release-his-own-ta
x-returns-and-californias-legislature.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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As the crisis continues in Puerto Rico, there is one thing Trump — and only Trump — could do right now to help: ask for more money.

Addressing the situation will require a lot of federal money. Trump is the one person who can ask for this funding and get the process started in Congress.

It's going to require Congress to pass a relief package to free up more federal dollars to fix the island's infrastructure problems. But first, the White House needs to send a request to Congress for the money. Trump hasn't even gotten that started.

Federal workers are doing what they can to help Puerto Rico respond with the minimal amount of resources. But that won't be enough to rebuild the island.

“So mad I could spit”: a former disaster relief official on Trump’s response to Puerto Rico. He described the Trump administration’s response as “malpractice.”

The mayor of San Juan is begging for help from federal officials as Puerto Rico recovers from Hurricane Maria. Meanwhile, from his New Jersey golf club, Trump responded by starting a feud with her on Twitter.

www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/9/30/16389640/puerto-rico-disaster
-relief

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Well I guess that Trump has already decided that he won't be building anything on an island in the middle of an ocean that is rising then. Probably not a bad idea.


I find it quite amusing that nobody is seeing the bigger picture here. The US and the EU have been FORCED to take on millions of economic refugees from countries that HATE us.

Why aren't we even discussing doing the same with Puerto Ricans now?

If Puerto Rico were a house in my town, it would be condemned. You wouldn't even be allowed to re-build on the land because of the chances that this would happen again. It would be much cheaper to relocate the people than to throw a bunch of money at a problem that will only HAPPEN AGAIN IN TIME.

I thought you were a proponent of planning for the future Second. How much money should be wasted rebuilding the entire island until the next big hurricane wipes them out again, or until the sea level rises and the only people living on the island are Kevin Kostner from Waterworld?

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Well I guess that Trump has already decided that he won't be building anything on an island in the middle of an ocean that is rising then. Probably not a bad idea.


I find it quite amusing that nobody is seeing the bigger picture here. The US and the EU have been FORCED to take on millions of economic refugees from countries that HATE us.

Why aren't we even discussing doing the same with Puerto Ricans now?

If Puerto Rico were a house in my town, it would be condemned. You wouldn't even be allowed to re-build on the land because of the chances that this would happen again. It would be much cheaper to relocate the people than to throw a bunch of money at a problem that will only HAPPEN AGAIN IN TIME.

I thought you were a proponent of planning for the future Second. How much money should be wasted rebuilding the entire island until the next big hurricane wipes them out again, or until the sea level rises and the only people living on the island are Kevin Kostner from Waterworld?

---

You're talking fantasy, not reality. I am all for taking a time machine to visit President William McKinley in 1898 and warning him not to accept Puerto Rico as part of the peace treaty with Spain, but that is not really an option for Trump to make this Spain's problem rather than his problem. President Trump has to deal with Puerto Rico, as it is today, but he is not doing anything more mentally strenuous than tweeting:

Retired Lieutenant General Russel Honoré, who won applause for turning around the chaotic Katrina relief effort 12 years ago, put Trump’s attacks on the San Juan mayor in clear contrast during a CNN interview Saturday.

“The mayor's living on a cot, and I hope the president has a good day at golf,” Honoré said, alluding to Trump’s weekend at his luxurious Bedminster Club in New Jersey.

Trump’s response this weekend is shocking not just because he is attacking public officials desperate to get aid for their people, but because his denunciation of press coverage verges on fantasy. Not for the first time, Trump seeks to deny the plain truth of news reports, but in this case there is no shortage of visual evidence to confirm the destruction. Even if he thinks he can fool mainlanders, Trump is also demanding that Puerto Ricans believe him, rather than their lying eyes:

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
To the people of Puerto Rico:
Do not believe the #FakeNews!#PRStrong
2:53 PM - Sep 30, 2017
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/914216744385904640

It’s hard to imagine this would convince a Puerto Rican.

www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/10/trump-san-juan-mayor/5416
65/

I will be pleased to get the same millionaire's tax break that Trump is also maneuvering for himself because I am not the President breaking his oath of office by abandoning Puerto Rico because it interferes with his tax reform plans and increasing his family's wealth.

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by second:
You're talking fantasy, not reality. I am all for taking a time machine to visit President William McKinley in 1898 and warning him not to accept Puerto Rico as part of the peace treaty with Spain, but that is not really an option for Trump to make this Spain's problem rather than his problem.

---

What are you talking about?

I'm actually suggesting opening up a discussion about taking actual refugees from Puerto Rico here, rather than try to re-build an island that should just be condemned. I'm not talking about pawning that off on Spain or telling these people to get fucked.

I think we should immediately stop taking any Muslim refugees in because the ideology is poison and they are NOT OUR PROBLEM, but I'm not opposed to doing that for any Puerto Ricans who want the help. There would just have to be a reasonable effort made to ensure that they actually try to get employment and aren't a total drain on society once they're here. It would be much cheaper than throwing money at an island that's eventually going to sink anyway.

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by second:
You're talking fantasy, not reality. I am all for taking a time machine to visit President William McKinley in 1898 and warning him not to accept Puerto Rico as part of the peace treaty with Spain, but that is not really an option for Trump to make this Spain's problem rather than his problem.

---

What are you talking about?

I'm actually suggesting opening up a discussion about taking actual refugees from Puerto Rico here, rather than try to re-build an island that should just be condemned. I'm not talking about pawning that off on Spain or telling these people to get fucked.

I think we should immediately stop taking any Muslim refugees in because the ideology is poison and they are NOT OUR PROBLEM, but I'm not opposed to doing that for any Puerto Ricans who want the help. There would just have to be a reasonable effort made to ensure that they actually try to get employment and aren't a total drain on society once they're here. It would be much cheaper than throwing money at an island that's eventually going to sink anyway.

---

Your solution will cost the price of a one-way plane ticket for each Puerto Rican to some location within the USA picked by Donald J Trump. He could apply your solution to Hurricane Harvey and it would be a whole lot cheaper throwing Texans on a flight out of Houston than to rebuild Houston. But take note, even Trump didn't suggest abandoning Houston, unlike you abandoning Puerto Rico. The last time I heard the Rebuild Houston option costs $150,000,000,000. Plane tickets to California would be cheaper and if Trump places enough flood damaged Texas Republicans there, he could win California in 2020.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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So what you're really trying to say is that Trump is in a no-win situation and no matter what he did you'd have something to bitch about.

Tell me something I don't know.

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Some of us have been bitching since he took office.

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Tears of relief as aid starts to reach remote parts of Puerto Rico
http://abcnews.go.com/US/tears-relief-aid-reaches-remote-parts-puerto-
rico/story?id=50213633

Puerto Rico Is Getting a Surge of Aid, Governor Says
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/01/us/puerto-rico-ricardo-rossello-sto
rm-recovery.html

Slate Mag has published an article about "Why Donald Trump Doesn’t Care About Puerto Ricans."

My narrow view. I'd say: Our President only cares about Donald Trump.
He's that immature, to put it nicely.

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Jesus Christ with the identity politics.

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
So what you're really trying to say is that Trump is in a no-win situation and no matter what he did you'd have something to bitch about.

Tell me something I don't know.

---

I'm bitching because Trump can't imagine a better solution to Puerto Rico since he is already doing the very best. For a different example of Trump's lack of imagination making a situation worse:

Using Trump's nickname for North Korea’s leader, Kim Jong Un, and apparently warning again of a U.S. military response to its escalating nuclear threat, Trump advised, “Save your energy, Rex, we’ll do what has to be done.”

The tweets came the day after Tillerson, on a visit to Beijing, told reporters the administration had direct lines of communication with North Korea and was probing for a response. But Trump already described his very best solution: Fire and Fury the likes of which the World has never seen before.
www.cnn.com/2017/09/17/politics/nikki-haley-north-korea-un-cnntv/index
.html

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He's calling Kim on his bluff. That's all it is... a bluff.

A lot of bad shit has been happening to America because we showed weakness and a willingness to negotiate with terrorists for a very, very long time.

Rocketman is shitting his pants right now.


Sorry that you don't like what's going on, but you're not the only opinion in America. I think a lot of people have had it and are happy with that current situation.


Let's talk about Puerto Rico. Stop trying to change the subject.


Is there anything that Trump could do right now about Puerto Rico that would make you happy? I give the ultimate handout solution and say bring the entire island over here as refugees, and you still don't like that solution.

Let's hear yours, smart guy.

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
He's calling Kim on his bluff. That's all it is... a bluff.

Rocketman is shitting his pants right now.

Let's talk about Puerto Rico. Stop trying to change the subject.

Is there anything that Trump could do right now about Puerto Rico that would make you happy? I give the ultimate handout solution and say bring the entire island over here as refugees, and you still don't like that solution.

Let's hear yours, smart guy.

---

Kim is NOT shitting in his pants. He thinks Trump is bluffing; I think Trump is bluffing. If Trump wants to stop Kim from finishing his ICBM program equipped with A-bomb warheads, he will have to destroy a good part of N Korea and Trump's Pentagon are telling him Kim will destroy an even bigger part of S Korea. Who knows if Trump cares about S Korea? Trump, the loudmouth, doesn't even know. But Kim is not bluffing about destroying S Korea in retaliation for being attacked by the USA.

What is Trump going to do? I have as little idea as Trump does. Now back to Puerto Rico and Trump's indecisiveness, the same as his dizzy dithering with N Korea that he tries to disguise with his big mouth about what he will do:

Since his inauguration in January, President Trump has lurched from scandal to scandal, crisis to crisis. And nearly all have been entirely self-inflicted. Make Trump a little less impulsive, a little more slow to take offense, and a little more interested in the details of governance, and he likely wouldn’t have an escalating confrontation with North Korean leader Kim Jong-un or the independent FBI investigation that threatens to engulf his administration.

Hurricane Maria and its devastating hit on Puerto Rico constitutes the first independent crisis of Trump’s tenure — the first event with major consequences for his presidency but out of his immediate control. And what does crisis management look like for President Trump under these circumstances? The same as it does with his self-inflicted wounds: reactive, chaotic, and tinged with demagoguery.

The federal government couldn’t prevent this disaster. But it could have prepared Puerto Rico for the worst by having supplies and resources ready for immediate deployment. That didn’t happen, and the White House is to blame. As Maria approached the island, President Trump was indifferent to the impending crisis, rallying with Alabama Republicans, touting his newest travel ban, and blasting professional football players for their protest against police brutality. On Puerto Rico, however, Trump was silent. To the extent that he spoke publicly, it was to blame its government for the island’s predicament. “Texas & Florida are doing great but Puerto Rico, which was already suffering from broken infrastructure & massive debt, is in deep trouble,” he said last Monday on Twitter, when the extent of the disaster was clear.

The White House had largely dropped the ball, turning its attention from the hurricane as it landed, then fumbling the response. For example, it took a week for Trump to waive a law that barred foreign vessels from delivering aid to Puerto Rico.

When publicly confronted with his inactivity, bordering on indifference, Trump again used Puerto Rico’s government as a scapegoat for the slow pace of recovery. “Ultimately the government of Puerto Rico will have to work with us to determine how this massive rebuilding effort ... will be funded and organized, and what we will do with the tremendous amount of existing debt already on the island,” he said during a Friday speech on tax policy, before traveling to his golf club in Bedminster, New Jersey.

Trump’s only extended comments on the disaster were to attack the mayor of San Juan, who had criticized the administration for trying to spin the situation on Puerto Rico. He did something he had never done when discussing hurricane damage in Texas and Florida: He blasted Puerto Ricans themselves. His next step on N Korea will be similar: to blame China. After that doesn'

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Second: "I beg Trump to show the world with his actions how crazy
he is and would he PLEASE stop his talking-talking-talking."

I'm the opposite. I'm afraid he will stop talking and start
bombing. Pretty sure he can't tell the innocent from the guilty,
& the bombs don't care where they fall.

I don't want WWIII or tyranny from the USA.

I grew up pledging allegiance to the flag & to the country for
which it stands. And as a kid, I really thought that we were
the Good Guys, all the Time! ('40's)

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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I agree with OONJ here, second.


Is Trump bluffing? I don't think he is. You seem to want Kim to call him out on it. Ball is in Kim's court. Kim loses any way it goes down. Hopefully he swallows his pride and doesn't take others down with him.

That would not be Trump's fault if it happened. Kim wouldn't be in this mess right now if he wasn't firing nerf gun shots for the world to see.



EDIT: Whoops... I do not agree with second here.

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Quote:

---

I grew up pledging allegiance to the flag & to the country for
which it stands. And as a kid, I really thought that we were
the Good Guys, all the Time! ('40's)

---

Same here...seems like so long ago, and on a different planet.

"Where have you gone Joe DiMaggio...."


SGG

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I picked a poor example because Trump is playing Russian Roulette with millions of Korean lives and that got you all disturbed. Within Trump's threats is Trump's tacit assumption (yes, believe me, I can read his silly brain) that he can stop Kim from building A-bomb tipped ICBMs by only killing Kim and a few thousand North Koreans around Kim. I'm sure a death toll under a 1,000,000 is impossible but I bet Trump truly thinks he can get the job done for far less; he's that out of his mind. How about a different, less horrifying example of Trump running his mouth, where Republican voters think Trump is bluffing but I think he's stupid? I dare him to build his Texas/Mexico wall.

Trump has promised he can get the Mexicans to pay for it. Building the wall is straight forward and possible, but I think that paying is impossible. I want him to stop talking and build the wall and watch him try to collect the money from Mexico. Same goes with Puerto Rico.

Trump has tacitly assumed that if the Puerto Ricans all work together like good little volunteers they can rebuild the island and pay back their debts without Trump spending hundreds of billions. Same as N Korea, Trump's delusion is he can solve an expensive problem cheaper than anyone else in the world could. Trump wants to spend the Puerto Rican money on tax cuts for himself. That is why he keeps mocking the Puerto Ricans for not trying harder to rebuild. I think Trump is talking stupidly about Puerto Rico because of his greed for a tax cut for the Trump family.

To make this all hopeful sounding that Americans are still good, I hope the White House Chief of Staff and the speechwriters can get Trump to at least read the teleprompter and get Trump to sound sane about Puerto Rico, Mexico, and North Korea, despite Trump being unsound of mind.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Second: "I beg Trump to show the world with his actions how crazy
he is and would he PLEASE stop his talking-talking-talking."

I'm the opposite. I'm afraid he will stop talking and start
bombing. Pretty sure he can't tell the innocent from the guilty,
& the bombs don't care where they fall.

I don't want WWIII or tyranny from the USA.

I grew up pledging allegiance to the flag & to the country for
which it stands. And as a kid, I really thought that we were
the Good Guys, all the Time! ('40's)


... oooOO}{OOooo ...

---

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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That's a long post based off opinions and self-admitted ability to read minds.

I kind of skimmed it. Doesn't look to be anything in there that you haven't posted 100 other times about Trump.

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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/03/opinion/trump-fails-puerto-rico.htm
l

Comments: David Ricardo, Massachusetts - 3 Oct 17 says,
Oh, please. This column is what Trump would call "fake news." There has been only one individual on the entire island who complained about the federal government's response, the mayor of San Juan. This mayor had not met with FEMA officials and had not participated in recovery efforts. The governor of Puerto Rico was initially quite positive on the federal government's actions.

The problems with distribution in PR are due to unionized drivers failing to show up for work. There are tons of supplies in the port ready for distribution, and the local drivers are nowhere to be found. Let's put the criticism where it belongs.

In addition, PR is plagued by poor governance and corruption. I, for one, do not want to dump a bunch of aid on an island without the government infrastructure to manage it. Puerto Rico has a long history of incompetence and corruption, and let's not use Hurricane Maria as an excuse to bail out these crooks.
.......

OK. I quote Ricardo because he does speak to something I
suspected. Altho from here, I dunno if Mayor Yulin Cruz
is at fault, or is it the Governor Rossello?
When I first began to read about PR after this disaster
struck ... I saw that they appear to have huge debt for
a state of only 3.6 million citizens. And no way to work
out of it 'cause unemployment is also very high? Seems
like business as usual in PR had the citizens in dire
straits beFore the storm.

I've no idea of the age distribution of people there.
What percentage are employable? Are there jobs to be had?
If so, do they get even minimum wage? ... I don't know.

We often call such places "a banana republic." This one's
a banana US protectorate that we're not managing very well
at all. If things don't work down there, isn't it on the USA
to fix ... We like to interfere & we're good at it.

But if it was our 51st state ... that's a different story.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Sounds like they're a complete welfare state.

Most people didn't even know their status before, and most people couldn't explain it to you now.

Who's financial responsibility is Puerto Rico? Californian citizens? Alaskan citizens? Indiana citizens?

Why should it be on tax payers 3,000 or more miles away to support somebody else? What do they get out of it?

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6, I really don't think they need support, & prob'ly don't want it.
Most people would prefer opportunity.

What they need is economic development.
And if the poor economy is due to corruption ...
I wouldn't know where to begin.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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I'm just wondering what you meant by "isn't it on the US to fix it".

I'm not a huge fan with how we go about "fixing" things stateside, or anywhere else in the world that is not in our purview, for that matter.

They're probably better off without our "help".



As for why they're in the situation they're in, I'm sure government corruption has a lot to do with it. But again, I don't trust our leaders to "fix" that any more than I trust their leaders to. I say the same for Republican or Democrat leaders here.

I think in the end it all boils down to overpopulation, which I've said on many occasions is probably the largest problem that everybody faces in the world right now. Some more than others.

That's an awfully tiny island to have 3.4 million people on it.

Quote:

---

Similar in size to Connecticut, encompassing 3,492 square miles.
Population: 3.8 million. As a state it would be considered mid-sized by population measure (similar to Kentucky or Arizona)

---

Connecticut: 5,543 mi²
Kentucky Size: 40,409 mi²
Arizona Size: 113,998 mi²



Only less than 400,000 people live in San Juan, and I'm sure a lot of them aren't close to being rich. I can't imagine there's a lot of booming business for the other 3 million people living outside of San Juan.

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Sq miles  ...  PoP  ...  ...   Pop per sq mile
   304.6 mi²   8,538,000   28,030 : New York City
3,515.0 mi²   3,411,000       979 : Puerto Rico
So the population of NYC is 28.63 times as dense as PR.
Overpopulation isn't a problem in Puerto Rico.

The people outside of San Juan may be mostly farmers &
fishermen. No doubt, urban areas have the same kinds of
skilled labor you'd find in any self-sufficient community.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Sq miles  ...  PoP  ...  ...   Pop per sq mile
   304.6 mi²   8,538,000   28,030 : New York City
3,515.0 mi²   3,411,000       979 : Puerto Rico
So the population of NYC is 28.63 times as dense as PR.
Overpopulation isn't a problem in Puerto Rico.

The people outside of San Juan may be mostly farmers &
fishermen. No doubt, urban areas have the same kinds of
skilled labor you'd find in any self-sufficient community.


... oooOO}{OOooo ...

---

LOL... Can't compare San Juan to New York. Not only is NYC one of the biggest, if not the biggest cities in the most powerful nation on the planet, but it's kind of the central hub of the world.

How much airport traffic do you think San Juan gets in a year compared to NYC?

Overpopulation is the problem in Puerto Rico. There is nothing that they could do that would give worthwhile jobs to 3.4 million people on that little island that nobody travels to. What could they possibly have to offer the rest of the world besides maybe some light tourism when they clean up the island? Maybe they can grow some sort of crop that has medicinal purposes that is not able to grow in any other area on the planet?

They've got nothing anybody wants.

Well.... I guess that's their number 2 problem right there.

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:

There is nothing that they could do that would give worthwhile jobs to 3.4 million people on that little island that nobody travels to. What could they possibly have to offer the rest of the world besides maybe some light tourism when they clean up the island? Maybe they can grow some sort of crop that has medicinal purposes that is not able to grow in any other area on the planet?

They've got nothing anybody wants.

Well.... I guess that's their number 2 problem right there.

---

There is more going on than tourism from cruise ships. Puerto Rico manufacturing is 46.4% of the economy.

For the USA, it is 19.4%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Puerto_Rico
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Manufacturing what the island needs maybe. How much of the stuff is exported? Good or bad, they live in a bubble.

A majority of that manufacturing money being made would be in San Juan and maybe a few other smaller hubs of the island. A very small percentage of people are making out on that work. All the people that don't have good jobs and pretty much slave away at farming probably make just enough to survive on. Nobody is paying for food when nobody has money to pay for food.


I've already said many times that our lack of manufacturing in the US today is a problem. It's not because we don't have anything to offer though. It's because we ushered in the global economy and the big corporations make a killing having the work done any place but here.

I've also said that overpopulation in the US is a problem, and we have a lot more land per person here than they do in Puerto Rico. This was my argument for why there is a need for so many worthless minimum wage jobs in society today, because there is too many people.

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by SECOND:
There is more going on than tourism from cruise ships. Puerto Rico manufacturing is 46.4% of the economy.

For the USA, it is 19.4%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Puerto_Rico
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

---

My guess is: the USA does a lot of manufacturing there,
    because the labor is much cheaper?

If so, that'd even account for why it's not a US state. :(


... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by Oonjerah:

My guess is: the USA does a lot of manufacturing there,
    because the labor is much cheaper?

If so, that'd even account for why it's not a US state. :(


... oooOO}{OOooo ...

---

Good point, but I think I have to go with yes and no on that one.

I just don't think that the labor would be all that cheap compared to countries half a world a way that we've been exploiting for generations now.

When's the last time you saw "Made in Puerto Rico" on anything? I never have. Most of my stuff comes from China, although I honestly rarely ever buy anything that isn't food these days, so you'd probably know better than I would.

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“I just want to tell you that right from the beginning this governor did not play politics,” Trump said during his visit to Puerto Rico on Tuesday. “He didn’t play it at all. He was saying it like it was. And he was giving us the highest grades.” Trump tweeted: Puerto Rico Governor Ricardo Rossello just stated: "The Administration and the President, every time we've spoken, they've delivered......

The idea that everything is fine because Governor Rosselló says it’s fine has been a consistent theme of Trump’s commentary on the storm.

And while Rosselló has, when not discussing matters with Trump, expressed considerable concern that Congress hasn’t yet appropriated the kind of money his island is going to need, he has maintained a consistent posture of public support for Trump. It’s extended as far as seeming to slow-walk updates of the death count, which Trump has repeatedly cited as evidence of the smooth recovery process.

As a tactic for dealing with a president who reportedly receives a daily briefing document full of flattering press accounts of his own activities, Rosselló’s strategy makes sense. Puerto Rico is going to need money and possibly debt relief. A worst-case scenario for Rosselló is one in which he angers Trump and Trump retaliates by taking a hard line against the island’s interests. Trump’s taste for flattery is becoming a disaster for Puerto Rico because it is in real trouble but Trump only wishes to hear good news out of Puerto Rico.

Trump gives no sign of having begun to wrestle with the severity of either the short-term humanitarian or the long-term economic issue on anything other than the most superficial level. The upshot of his emphasis on denouncing media scrutiny and elevating official flattery is that he never will.

The good news for Trump, the country, and the world is that though the fate of Puerto Rico’s 3 million people is important to them, it’s limited in its broader impact on the outside world.

www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/5/16425954/trump-flattery-puer
to-rico

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Yeah. Like I said, they have nothing to offer.

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Second, did you just say that Puerto Ricans are stuck
with bailing themselves out?
If so, I'm wrong to imagine that US manufacturers use
them for cheap labor. If they were valuable to business
interests here, then we would help them.

I wonder why they are so undeveloped commercially.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Second, did you just say that Puerto Ricans are stuck
with bailing themselves out?
If so, I'm wrong to imagine that US manufacturers use
them for cheap labor. If they were valuable to business
interests here, then we would help them.

I wonder why they are so undeveloped commercially.

---

That's how I read this last part...

Quote:

---

The good news for Trump, the country, and the world is that though the fate of Puerto Rico’s 3 million people is important to them, it’s limited in its broader impact on the outside world.

---

After filtering out obligatory the anti-trump bias and the ridiculous statement that this is important to the rest of the world, of course.

It's not really important to anybody besides people in Puerto Rico, and people who have family or friends that live in Puerto Rico. Sure, I could sit here and virtue signal all day about how my heart and prayers go out to them to make me feel better about myself, but what good is that doing anybody in Puerto Rico.

The fact that they really have nothing to contribute to the rest of the world is especially damning for their situation right now.

I'm not trying to be a dick here, and I agree with you 100% that if they were valuable to business interests here than we would be helping them more. All I'm saying is that their situation sucks and nobody is going to do anything much that helps them if they don't do it for themselves. Everybody that's posting about it online today won't even remember it happened 3 weeks from now.

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How a heartbroken doomsday prepper who lost everything
is now saving hurricane victims
http://www.nj.com/burlington/index.ssf/2017/09/how_a_heartbroken_dooms
day_prepper_who_lost_everyt.html

"MEDFORD TWP. — You probably wouldn't expect to find a doomsday prepper's
compound at the end of a nice cul-de-sac off of Tuckerton Road, otherwise
lined with large houses with pools. ..."

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Now that's an awesome story.

Thanks for sharing that OONJ.

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Puerto Rico's debt to the U.S. will prohibit any type of economic abandonment by Congress, too much has been invested already. So, what to do? Good question. Perhaps, as has been suggested, the island should be left to fend for itself, you know break ties with the U.S. No more Commonwealth!

Because, as has been suggested, "they" have nothing to offer. So, as it says in the song in West Side Story, "let it sink back in the ocean."

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/10/2/16403236/puerto-r
ico-economy-utilities-power-prepa-disaster

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/5/16403952/hurricane-m
aria-puerto-rico-migration

Some economic background

Quote:

---

The Maria-fueled exodus is really an acceleration of a trend that’s been underway for years. Puerto Ricans are US citizens, part of the US labor market, and can take jobs and move wherever they want. And due largely to Puerto Rico’s economic crisis and persistently high unemployment, its residents have been leaving in large numbers in recent years.

Pew Research Center estimates that the Puerto Rican population peaked in 2004, and the territory lost 446,000 people between then and 2016, nearly 12 percent of the population. In 2015 alone, 89,000 Puerto Ricans left for the US mainland, and 64,238 of them have not returned. San Juan, the capital, lost about 10 percent of its population in the decade from 2005 to 2015.

The financial crisis and recession hit Puerto Rico slightly before the US as a whole, beginning with the end of tax breaks that Congress had offered manufacturers for locating in Puerto Rico. The breaks had allowed Puerto Rican subsidiaries of US companies to send earnings back to the mainland without paying federal corporate taxes. US politicians widely viewed this as an illegitimate corporate tax giveaway, and in 1996 Congress opted to phase it out gradually over 10 years. In 2006, the full brunt of the breaks' removal hit, and manufacturers, in particular pharmaceutical companies, began closing plants; an estimated 100,000 manufacturing jobs have been lost, with more indirect jobs going away as a result.
The result was a recession, worsened by the US mainland financial crisis and recession in 2007 and 2008.

Meanwhile, federal law had also caused an explosion in the territory’s public debt. Puerto Rican debt is “triple exempt” from taxes: Bonds issued by the territory’s government are exempt from state/territory-level, municipal, and federal taxation. There’s other triple-exempt debt in the US too, but you generally have to live in the place in question to enjoy it; Californians buying California state debt, for instance, get a triple exemption. Puerto Rico’s debt, however, is triple-exempt no matter who buys it. That naturally led a lot of people to want to buy it, giving the government a reason to take out lots of debt.

The sudden collapse of the territorial (and national) economy in the late 2000s made repaying that debt tough. That led to pressure for austerity policies that made the economic situation as experienced by ordinary Puerto Ricans even worse. Even now, after the continental US has largely recovered from the Great Recession, unemployment in Puerto Rico is above 10 percent; it peaked at 17 percent in 2010. The Census Bureau estimates the poverty rate at 43.5 percent. In those conditions, relocating to the mainland, which has always enjoyed far higher household incomes than Puerto Rico, starts to look very attractive.

“If you compare it to the historic periods where there’s been the greatest levels of migration, like after WWII and in the ’80s, the last 10 years are another one of those peaks,” Elizabeth Aranda, a professor of sociology at the University of Southern Florida who studies Puerto Rican migrant communities, says. “It might even surpass migration in the 1980s.”The Maria-fueled exodus is really an acceleration of a trend that’s been underway for years. Puerto Ricans are US citizens, part of the US labor market, and can take jobs and move wherever they want. And due

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Quote:

---

Is there anything that Trump could do right now about Puerto Rico that would make you happy? I give the ultimate handout solution and say bring the entire island over here as refugees, and you still don't like that solution.

---

1- Handout solution - it's funny, Big Corporations get bailouts (really corporate welfare) and very little is said - barely a blip on the radar screen - and yet...

2- It brings me to the "refugees" statement - can Americans, within their own country, be called refugees?

There is a solution that would both rebuild the island, and repay the Bonds held (despite the fact they were illegally obtained by UBS) against Puerto Rico. Restructure the debt and rebuild the infrastructure. Now that is, of course, that the bond holders don't want to take over the island and bypass the statehood option.
With statehood Puerto Rico would go the way of Hawaii and become another luxury playground for the rich and famous, and employ the natives of the island as a type of indentured slaves.

I don't think that the US Congress will opt to make PR a state, there's too much at stake. I believe that they will be allowed to suffer and literally 'sink' into the ocean. Wall Street will call in their notes and put the squeeze on PR, and be made to repay their debt by surrendering the island as so much collateral. I'm not sure of the logistics, but somehow the island will wind up in others hands. Properties will be bought up for pennies on the dollar, and packaged to investors. Wall Street will get paid and the island will be made into a type of Hawaii/Disneyland, as I said, a playground for the wealthy. A new style colonialism.

Just sayin'


SGG

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:

Quote:

---

Is there anything that Trump could do right now about Puerto Rico that would make you happy? I give the ultimate handout solution and say bring the entire island over here as refugees, and you still don't like that solution.

---

1- Handout solution - it's funny, Big Corporations get bailouts (really corporate welfare) and very little is said - barely a blip on the radar screen - and yet...

2- It brings me to the "refugees" statement - can Americans, within their own country, be called refugees?

There is a solution that would both rebuild the island, and repay the Bonds held (despite the fact they were illegally obtained by UBS) against Puerto Rico. Restructure the debt and rebuild the infrastructure. Now that is, of course, that the bond holders don't want to take over the island and bypass the statehood option.
With statehood Puerto Rico would go the way of Hawaii and become another luxury playground for the rich and famous, and employ the natives of the island as a type of indentured slaves.

I don't think that the US Congress will opt to make PR a state, there's too much at stake. I believe that they will be allowed to suffer and literally 'sink' into the ocean. Wall Street will call in their notes and put the squeeze on PR, and be made to repay their debt by surrendering the island as so much collateral. I'm not sure of the logistics, but somehow the island will wind up in others hands. Properties will be bought up for pennies on the dollar, and packaged to investors. Wall Street will get paid and the island will be made into a type of Hawaii/Disneyland, as I said, a playground for the wealthy. A new style colonialism.

Just sayin'


SGG

---

1 - A lot of people had huge problems with the bailouts. I was one of them. These happened both under GWB and Obama.

2 - Yes they can. If California were falling into the ocean, or the same thing that happened to Puerto Rico happened instead to Hawaii, we'd be calling them Refugees. The term's orginal use was just for persons seeking refuge. Refuge itself meaning "shelter or protection from danger or distress".

The current use of the word is bullshit and is under discussion currently for redefinition...

Quote:

---

In 2014, James Paul criticized the original 1951 definition on three accounts:[9]

"refugees have been defined in terms of those moving across nation-state borders, as if national identity excludes all other displacements of equal consequence ...";
"the neat definition of Article 1 glides over the ?ne print a little further down the page that allows state signatories to choose to restrict the definition of refugees to only those who have come from Europe, and during a very particular time-period ...";
"it gives credence to the notion that personal individualized 'fear of being persecuted' is the core reason for needing support. War, upheaval, famine and pestilence do not in the conventional definition make for refugee status. It does not matter that civilian deaths as a proportion of deaths in war escalated to 10% in World War I, and to more than 90% of the 40 million killed since 1945. It only matters that persons fear the persecution of their state."

Not all reasons for seeking asylum in another country satisfy the definition of "refugee" according to article 1A of the 1951 Refugee Convention. In 1951, the parties of the treaty had the idea that slavery was a thing from the past and therefore escaped and fleeing slaves are a group not mentioned in the definition.[citation needed] Fleeing droughts and hunger, fleeing economic hardship, natural disasters and not even war or terror satisfied the definition of 1951.

---

Add to that the fact that Puerto Ricans are Americans only in the very loosest sense of the word.

Quote:

---

However, the prevailing consensus among scholars, lawmakers and policymakers is that Puerto Ricans are not

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Puerto Rico cancer patients, elderly to arrive in Miami
https://www.local10.com/weather/hurricane/puerto-rico-cancer-patients-
elderly-to-arrive-in-miami

Much of island remains without power after Hurricane Maria
.
.
"What would happen to these people if they wouldn't be able to get
on this flight? They would probably die," Betancourt said.

The official death count in Puerto Rico is 36, but many people fear
that number is likely much higher -- stressing the urgent need for
these types of operations to take place.

The charter flight being used in this case was donated.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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When you can adopt rescued dogs and cats brought to NC
from Puerto Rico after hurricanes
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article177750121.html#storylink
=cpy

Eighty-seven homeless pets – 70 dogs and 17 cats – arrived in North
Carolina last week, rescued from Puerto Rico following devastating
storms – and many of them are almost ready to meet their new families.

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This may be my Next-to-Last comment in this thread.

My pal has been found & listed at a shelter in Isabella, PR.

However, until a friend actually speaks to him, we won't
know about his kitty.

Also: Having more US businesses open shop over there,
if they paid well, PR might start a real recovery from its
long time poverty.

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I'm glad to hear your friend made it through ok. I hope his kitty is as fortunate, and that they're reunited soon.

---

---

---

Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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I'm assuming that when the Red Cross did the head count,
it was only people.
When my pal gets a signal to his cell phone, probably he'll
"call Home" & let someone know the details. His pictures on
Facebook show a kitty that looks more alert than my cats.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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ARRRGGHe!!

Trump threat to abandon Puerto Rico recovery sparks a backlash
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-threat-to-abandon-puerto
-rico-recovery-sparks-a-backlash/2017/10/12/cf0d0abe-af62-11e7-9e58-e6288544af98_story.html?utm_term=.ab02cbb2b960

"President Trump served notice Thursday that he may withdraw federal
relief workers from Puerto Rico and blamed the island for its failing in-
frastructure, effectively threatening to abandon the U.S. territory amid
a staggering humanitarian crisis in the aftermath of twin hurricanes."

... "On the island, residents and elected officials responded to Trump’s
Thursday tweets with outrage and disbelief."


It's true that I've not said anything nice about Donald Trump so far.
But until now, I never thought that he might be Truly Evil, rather than
just an Olde Spoiled Brat.

PR was in bad shape before Maria came thru & took out any/all structures
& facilities not built to withstand the Ages. As our Protectorate, PR is
entitled to our aide. It is US neglect that has caused at least some of
PR's poverty.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Jennifer Lopez Takes Stage at Telethon to Perform
and Promise Puerto Rico 'You Are Not Forgotten'
http://people.com/music/jennifer-lopez-performs-puerto-rico-benefit-co
ncert/

On Saturday night, Jennifer Lopez performed at One Voice: Somos Live!
A Concert for Disaster Relief — the Puerto Rico benefit concert and
telethon she organized with her ex-husband Marc Anthony and boyfriend
Alex Rodriguez.

In addition to singing several of her hit tracks, Lopez also took the
stage to champion the fundraising efforts by a slew of -star-studded
participants.

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JLo also pledged $1 million, the first Puerto Rican/Latina to do so. She started the ball rolling.


SGG

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Jennifer Lopez Takes Stage at Telethon to Perform
and Promise Puerto Rico 'You Are Not Forgotten'
http://people.com/music/jennifer-lopez-performs-puerto-rico-benefit-co
ncert/

On Saturday night, Jennifer Lopez performed at One Voice: Somos Live!
A Concert for Disaster Relief — the Puerto Rico benefit concert and
telethon she organized with her ex-husband Marc Anthony and boyfriend
Alex Rodriguez.

In addition to singing several of her hit tracks, Lopez also took the
stage to champion the fundraising efforts by a slew of -star-studded
participants.



... oooOO}{OOooo ...

---

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People keep forgetting that Puerto Rico, before Maria hit, took on the survivors from the Virgin Islands. And this with a failing infrastructure, as the Donald keeps reminding everyone.

Puerto Ricans have heart. they will share the little that they have to help a neighbor.

I have to laugh every time I hear that Trump said that he met with the president of the Virgin Islands......that's you, you dumb shit!

He meant to say Governor.


SGG

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
ARRRGGHe!!

Trump threat to abandon Puerto Rico recovery sparks a backlash
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-threat-to-abandon-puerto
-rico-recovery-sparks-a-backlash/2017/10/12/cf0d0abe-af62-11e7-9e58-e6288544af98_story.html?utm_term=.ab02cbb2b960

"President Trump served notice Thursday that he may withdraw federal
relief workers from Puerto Rico and blamed the island for its failing in-
frastructure, effectively threatening to abandon the U.S. territory amid
a staggering humanitarian crisis in the aftermath of twin hurricanes."

... "On the island, residents and elected officials responded to Trump’s
Thursday tweets with outrage and disbelief."


It's true that I've not said anything nice about Donald Trump so far.
But until now, I never thought that he might be Truly Evil, rather than
just an Olde Spoiled Brat.

PR was in bad shape before Maria came thru & took out any/all structures
& facilities not built to withstand the Ages. As our Protectorate, PR is
entitled to our aide. It is US neglect that has caused at least some of
PR's poverty.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

---

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Quote:

---

2 - Yes they can. If California were falling into the ocean, or the same thing that happened to Puerto Rico happened instead to Hawaii, we'd be calling them Refugees. The term's orginal use was just for persons seeking refuge. Refuge itself meaning "shelter or protection from danger or distress".

The current use of the word is bullshit and is under discussion currently for redefinition...

---

I looked up "refugee" online: English Oxford Living Dictionaries:

"A person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster."

Like your pals Kiki and Siggy always like to say: Cites please!
Who is discussing the redefinition of the word refugee, I want to check it myself, so please post a link or give me a name, something to go on. Notice too that it says "leave their country" and since Puerto Rico is a territory, and it's people American Citizens; they can't very well leave the country they are already in.

Seeking "refuge" from the storm is the correct way to describe the plight of the people from Houston, Florida, California, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands - Americans all. Refuge comes from the French word meaning "to flee." If you want to get technical.

But "Refugee" usually connotes a person "fleeing" from another country, as stated above, because of religious or political persecution....like those white boys that came from England and crash-landed on Plymouth Rock all those years ago. Like that!
Whenever I hear the term refugee, I think of those poor fucks from Syria seeking asylum from the gassing and bombing by the evil motherfuckers from Assad's group.
Now those are refugees!

But the poor motherfuckers that survived the wildfires out west, and the poor slobs in Houston and Key West, well they are survivors. I have never seen a T-shirt that says..."I'm a refugee from 9/11" No, it's "I'm a survivor of 9/11." Did you ever hear someone say..."I'm a refugee of the plane crash." You get the picture, don't you?

Quote:

---

Add to that the fact that Puerto Ricans are Americans only in the very loosest sense of the word.

---

This is an incontrovertible truth that Puerto Ricans and Virgin Islanders are American citizens,

Quote:

---

"According to The Citizens Educational Foundation, June 9, 1999: Persons born in Puerto Rico acquire U.S. citizenship under 8 U.S.C. 1402, which is part of the U.S. Immigration and Nationality Act. This is statutory citizenship rather than citizenship arising from birth or naturalization in a state of the union under the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. U.S. citizenship is protected by the U.S. Constitution from being taken away arbitrarily. Congress cannot take away citizenship previously granted to Puerto Ricans....without any legitimate purpose."

---

Puerto Ricans became U.S. citizens in March 2, 1917 (just in time for WWI) signed into law by Woodrow Wilson, known as the Jones Act. In other words, U.S. citizens by law. FULL FLEDGED Americans, although somewhat complicated when it comes to voting and other privileges such as tax nd so on. Last year Puerto Ricans paid $3.3 Billion in taxes, fees and tariffs to the U.S. Govt.

You can talk until you're blue in the face but, Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens.
They don't vote for POTUS, but if they move to the "mainland" they can. Because they are U.S. citizens. To say it's complicated is a gross understatement.


SGG

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Here's a video by Splinter/Jack Mirkinson on Puerto Rico

https://splinternews.com/lets-start-talking-about-puerto-rico-honestly
-1819456138


SGG

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/03/opinion/trump-fails-puerto-rico.htm
l

Comments: David Ricardo, Massachusetts - 3 Oct 17 says,
Oh, please. This column is what Trump would call "fake news." There has been only one individual on the entire island who complained about the federal government's response, the mayor of San Juan. This mayor had not met with FEMA officials and had not participated in recovery efforts. The governor of Puerto Rico was initially quite positive on the federal government's actions.

The problems with distribution in PR are due to unionized drivers failing to show up for work. There are tons of supplies in the port ready for distribution, and the local drivers are nowhere to be found. Let's put the criticism where it belongs.

In addition, PR is plagued by poor governance and corruption. I, for one, do not want to dump a bunch of aid on an island without the government infrastructure to manage it. Puerto Rico has a long history of incompetence and corruption, and let's not use Hurricane Maria as an excuse to bail out these crooks.
.......

OK. I quote Ricardo because he does speak to something I
suspected. Altho from here, I dunno if Mayor Yulin Cruz
is at fault, or is it the Governor Rossello?
When I first began to read about PR after this disaster
struck ... I saw that they appear to have huge debt for
a state of only 3.6 million citizens. And no way to work
out of it 'cause unemployment is also very high? Seems
like business as usual in PR had the citizens in dire
straits beFore the storm.

I've no idea of the age distribution of people there.
What percentage are employable? Are there jobs to be had?
If so, do they get even minimum wage? ... I don't know.

We often call such places "a banana republic." This one's
a banana US protectorate that we're not managing very well
at all. If things don't work down there, isn't it on the USA
to fix ... We like to interfere & we're good at it.

But if it was our 51st state ... that's a different story.


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Send Mitt Romney to Puerto Rico
https://slate.com/business/2017/10/send-mitt-romney-to-puerto-rico.htm
l?wpsrc=sh_all_dt_tw_ru

The island needs an adviser to navigate Washington, Wall Street,
and an uncertain future. He’s perfect.

{I don't recall much about Mitt. But if this is true, I hope he gets the job.}
... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Here's a video by Splinter/Jack Mirkinson on Puerto Rico
https://splinternews.com/lets-start-talking-about-puerto-rico-honestly
-1819456138
SGG

---

I've wondered for quite a while - why does the US hold lands (Puerto Rico, Guam, Northern Mariana islands - where goods have the coveted Made in USA label, U.S. Virgin Islands, and American Samoa) with the inhabitants in limbo?

I thought we were the land of the free.

---

---

---

Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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1Kiki: "I thought we were the land of the free."

Well ... we are ... sorta. Now that I think about it, it's kind of
conditional, even for me. There are people here who have a lot
more authority than me ... more rights, as it were. Law enforce-
ment & judges, for example. In a capitalist society, doesn't money
buy more rights?

As for our colonial territories, I'd like to see them prosper. There
is No good reason for them to be in poverty, & Shiney, I don't under-
stand it yet. Seeing is believing, but not necessarily comprehending.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Mississippi to take in 1,200 prisoners from hurricane-scarred Puerto Rico
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/10/18/mississippi-
take-1-200-prisoners-hurricane-scarred-puerto-rico/777820001/

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Puerto Rico governor to huddle with Trump on recovery efforts
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/356072-puerto-rico-governor
-to-huddle-with-trump-on-recovery-efforts

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I know that there are many lessons to be drawn from Puerto Rico, but the lesson that I get from it (and Katrina) is this: If there is a truly horrific disaster, you're on your own for at least three weeks if not more.

Seriously. I live near LA, and we're way overdue for a major quake. Can you imagine a situation where thousands are dead and millions have no power or water?


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Like this?

Central Mexico earthquake struck at 13:14 CDT (18:14 UTC)
on 19 September 2017 with an estimated magnitude of Mw 7.1
and strong shaking for about 20 seconds.

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No different than any other foreign power looking to colonize and conquer lands to gain financially and militarily. The Roman Empire, Spanish and English, French, Dutch etc.

This is a reality throughout history, even your precious Russia is looking to lord over the former Soviet Union. History repeats itself.


SGG

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 1kiki:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Here's a video by Splinter/Jack Mirkinson on Puerto Rico
https://splinternews.com/lets-start-talking-about-puerto-rico-honestly
-1819456138
SGG

---

I've wondered for quite a while - why does the US hold lands (Puerto Rico, Guam, Northern Mariana islands - where goods have the coveted Made in USA label, U.S. Virgin Islands, and American Samoa) with the inhabitants in limbo?

I thought we were the land of the free.

---

---

---

Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

---

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Why is the power off in Puerto Rico?

In contrast with Texas after Hurricane Harvey and Florida after Irma, where thousands of workers rushed in, only a few hundred electrical workers from outside the island have arrived.

It was not until Saturday that the Puerto Rican government said it had the federal funding needed to bring in more workers. And until a week ago, the small Montana company hired to get the lights back on had only 165 workers on the ground; it now has about 300.

In comparison, 5,300 workers from outside the region converged on coastal Texas in the days after Hurricane Harvey to restore a power loss that was about a tenth the size, said Larry Jones, a spokesman for AEP Texas. Electricity was back on for almost everyone within two weeks.

In Florida, 18,000 outside workers went in after Hurricane Irma knocked out electricity to most of the state last month, according to FPL, Florida’s largest power company.

In Puerto Rico, the brunt of the work has been left to the 900 members of local crews.

www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/us/puerto-rico-electricity-power.html

How much is Texas getting, compared to Puerto Rico, for hurricane aid? For Texas, it would be $18.7 billion in funding specifically for relief and recovery efforts from Hurricane Harvey. For Puerto Rico, with more damage to more people, I can't find a number. Here is a reason why the number for Puerto Rico is a closely guarded government secret:

Quote:

---

Floridians are “amazing people,” President Trump tweeted after Hurricane Irma. “We’re going to see some of the folks and make sure they’re happy,” he said in Fort Myers. Texans, for their part, “have done a fantastic job of getting things together” after Harvey.

“We are with you today, we are with you tomorrow, and we will be with you EVERY SINGLE DAY AFTER, to restore, recover, and REBUILD!” he told Texas. Florida received the same message, right down to the: “EVERY SINGLE DAY.”

And Puerto Ricans? They “want everything to be done for them,” Trump has tweeted. “We cannot keep FEMA, the Military & the First Responders, who have been amazing (under the most difficult circumstances) in P.R. forever!”

---

www.nytimes.com/2017/10/13/opinion/puerto-rico-florida-texas-hurricane
.html

The message out of Washington amounts to a doctrine of personal responsibility and culpability applied only to Puerto Rico and its people, not the other areas of the United States affected by recent storms.

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