Boeing 737 Max

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Friday, August 21, 2026 17:40
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SIGNYM

Sunday, March 17, 2019 6:27 PM

Apparently the plane was redesigned to accomodate a more powerful, more efficient engine with altered aerodynamics. Then, in order to counter those changes, an "anti-stall" subroutine was programmed into the autopilot. According to some reports, several American pilots have voluntarily reported that the moment that they engaged the autopilot the plane went steeply nose-down, and the only way they could regain control was by disengaging the autopilot. Supposedly, since none of these incidents resulted in an accident, they aren't kept in the FAA database.

In the case of the Ethiopian crash, the "jack screw" indicates that the plane was set to dive. Now, I doubt the pilots did that and deliberately crashed the plane; more likely that in the panic they didn't disengage the autopilot and couldn't overcome the autopilot settings.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/15/business/boeing-ethiopian-crash.htm
l

It will be interesting to see what the final investigation shows, but this is a blow to Boeing.

There was a similar incident regarding an Airbus operated by French airlines which was lost over the Atlantic on Brazil to France flight. As I recall, the problem with the Airbus flight was that it hit really bad weather. That plane is highly automated, and the pilots simply didn't know how to keep the plance from crashing because they were undertrained in manual flight control.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/air-france-flight-447-crash-report-airbu
s-autopilot-to-blame

Self-driving cars, anyone???

BRENDA

Sunday, March 17, 2019 11:58 PM

The planes of this type we have in Canada have been grounded. And from what I heard on the news other countries have grounded them too.

RUE

Monday, March 18, 2019 1:49 AM

"As I recall, the problem with the Airbus flight was that it hit really bad weather. That plane is highly automated, and the pilots simply didn't know how to keep the plane from crashing because they were undertrained in manual flight control."

I haven't looked it up, but I believe one of the problems with that plane is that it has only one airspeed sensor, whose port iced-up. That caused a faulty reading that the autopilot tried to correct.

AURAPTOR

Monday, March 18, 2019 2:20 AM

Any system which fights against the pilot and basic physics , will ultimately fail. Sadly, when Boeing made 'adjustments' to the new MAX, they failed to alter their instruction manual for pilots.

It's reported that the data from the 2 most recent 737 crashes are showing similar info, indicating that the crashes weren't random flukes or coincidence.

This really sucks for Boeing, which , until recently, had been doing extremely well.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

SIGNYM

Monday, March 18, 2019 2:51 AM

I'm not sure if this analysis is correct, but it's extremely detailed and matches all f the publicly-available configuration differences between the 737 and the 737-max series, including the handling characeristics changes which came from the landing gear changes which were necessitated by the larger engines.

Quote:
The Best Analysis Of What Really Happened To The Boeing 737 Max From A Pilot & Software Engineer

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-03-17/best-analysis-what-really-ha
ppened-boeing-737-max-pilot-software-engineer

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

SECOND

Monday, March 18, 2019 3:38 AM

Flawed analysis, failed oversight: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system

www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

Boeing failed to account for how the system could reset itself each time a pilot responded, thereby missing the potential impact of the system repeatedly pushing the airplane’s nose downward.

Boeing assessed a failure of the system as one level below “catastrophic.” But even that “hazardous” danger level should have precluded activation of the system based on input from a single sensor — and yet that’s how it was designed.

The black box data retrieved after the Lion Air crash indicates that a single faulty sensor — a vane on the outside of the fuselage that measures the plane’s “angle of attack,” the angle between the airflow and the wing — initiating a tug of war as the automatic controls repeatedly pushed the nose of the plane down and the pilots wrestled with the manual controls to pull it back up, before the final crash.

The people who spoke to The Seattle Times and shared details of the safety analysis all spoke on condition of anonymity to protect their jobs at the FAA and other aviation organizations.

Several technical experts inside the FAA said October’s Lion Air crash is only the latest indicator that the agency’s delegation of airplane certification has gone too far, and that it’s inappropriate for Boeing employees to have so much authority over safety analyses of Boeing jets.

Blame the Republicans in Congress: The FAA, citing lack of funding and resources, has over the years delegated increasing authority to Boeing to take on more of the work of certifying the safety of its own airplanes.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SECOND

Monday, March 18, 2019 4:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"As I recall, the problem with the Airbus flight was that it hit really bad weather. That plane is highly automated, and the pilots simply didn't know how to keep the plane from crashing because they were undertrained in manual flight control."

I haven't looked it up, but I believe one of the problems with that plane is that it has only one airspeed sensor, whose port iced-up. That caused a faulty reading that the autopilot tried to correct.

Rue, you are wrong in all the details: Airbus has three sensors. All failed because of ice. The autopilot shut off, as it should, leaving control to the co-pilot, who crashed the plane. Captain Chesley Sullenberger said, "I don't know why he did that." The co-pilot's last words were 'what's happening?', then splat into the ocean. Yep, he sure didn't know.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2790768/f-dead-pilot-shouted-air-fran
ce-jet-plunged-atlantic-final-moments-doomed-flight-447-two-sleeping-pilots-revealed.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

6IXSTRINGJACK

Monday, March 18, 2019 6:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"As I recall, the problem with the Airbus flight was that it hit really bad weather. That plane is highly automated, and the pilots simply didn't know how to keep the plane from crashing because they were undertrained in manual flight control."

I haven't looked it up, but I believe one of the problems with that plane is that it has only one airspeed sensor, whose port iced-up. That caused a faulty reading that the autopilot tried to correct.

This is what happens when we let computers do everything for us.

I'm sure that coupled with company cutbacks lead to Monster.com job postings for their pilots reading something like this:

"Got a smart phone? Wanna fly a plane? It's easy! My ex-wife flies a plane, and she's 'tarded!"

So, yes, Captain Crunch... In response to your dismissal that Idiocracy has gone from being a comedy to a documentary, planes are now falling out of the sky.

If I can remember where that post was, I'll be sure to reply with this story for you.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, March 18, 2019 6:34 AM

For most of Aviation History, Investigation of Catastrophic Failures focused on how many seconds elapsed after the "Oh Shit" moment, signifying when the Pilot-in-Command realized there was a serious problem - and striving to find a solution which could have been implemented instead of the actions which resulted in the failure.
Now that birds are flown by computer, there is almost never an Oh Shit moment - it has been replaced by the "What's It Doing?" Query. Meaning the Pilot-in-Command wonders what is the Flight Computer doing.

There seems to be some confusion between Computer Controlled Flight and Auto Pilot.
IIRC, there were 4 Categories of Auto-Pilot. Including Flight from 400 ft of Altitude after Takeoff until the final 400 ft of Approach to Landing. And from 200ft beginning to end. And 100 ft begin to end. And entire sequence from Takeoff until Touchdown and Stop. That last one was never allowed to be selected on the Auto Pilot. I believe that one was Category 1. I believe the 400 ft one was Category IV, and that was the only selection I ever saw selected when installing the Auto Pilot.

Auto Pilots have been used since at least the 1970s, and I think the 1960s.

It is not really the Auto Pilot which is causing failures, it is the Flight Computers, and the lack of experience ingrained in Pilots who no longer ever fly the bird.

Airbus has been the most Safety-Designed birds built.
Frozen Pitot Tubes are a known potential failure. When Pilots depart Visual Flight Rules flight, they are required to dedicate complete faith to Instruments. Without visual reference due to dark, fog, etc, they must trust the instrument readings to be true indicators of Airspeed, A-o-A, Altitude, Bank. When the first 2 Pitot Tubes freeze up, caution should be exercised before relying upon the final.

SECOND

Monday, March 18, 2019 6:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

This is what happens when we let computers do everything for us.

Wrong. The design would crash the plane when one sensor fails. One. Sensor. Fails. The people who work at Boeing knew this BEFORE THE CRASH. They spoke to the Seattle Times, which kept their names secret because otherwise they will be fired from Boeing. The Times wants to write future stories about Boeing and it wants its sources to continue working there.
www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

6IXSTRINGJACK

Monday, March 18, 2019 6:21 PM

You need to stop picking one sentence out of my posts and taking them out of context, shit for brains.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

SECOND

Monday, March 18, 2019 6:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
You need to stop picking one sentence out of my posts and taking them out of context, shit for brains.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

I picked one sentence to help you focus on what the Seattle Times wrote about Boeing's fatally bad design. Did you read the Seattle Times before you wrote back? No? If you had, you would see that the FAA rubber-stamped Boeing's bad design because the Republicans in Congress did not give the FAA enough money to check the design.

www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, March 18, 2019 8:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
This is what happens when we let computers do everything for us.
Wrong. The design would crash the plane when one sensor fails. One. Sensor. Fails. The people who work at Boeing knew this BEFORE THE CRASH. They spoke to the Seattle Times, which kept their names secret because otherwise they will be fired from Boeing. The Times wants to write future stories about Boeing and it wants its sources to continue working there.
www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

Here you are wrong again, as usual. 6ix made a correct statement.
Just like today's kids don't know how to do math, because their handheld device tells them what to think, today's Pilots do not have the experience of flying planes, enduring long boring flights while at the controls.
Perhaps 6ix did not intend this context, but his statement is accurate.

In the case of one sensor, the Pilot was able to have enough sense to know what corrective flight control to attempt, but the Flight Computer kept overriding the Pilot's efforts, because we gave the computer the authority to do everything for us. Even when it is wrong. Computers do not have a self-preservation instinct, but Pilots do.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, March 18, 2019 9:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
For most of Aviation History, Investigation of Catastrophic Failures focused on how many seconds elapsed after the "Oh Shit" moment, signifying when the Pilot-in-Command realized there was a serious problem - and striving to find a solution which could have been implemented instead of the actions which resulted in the failure.
Now that birds are flown by computer, there is almost never an Oh Shit moment - it has been replaced by the "What's It Doing?" Query. Meaning the Pilot-in-Command wonders what is the Flight Computer doing.

There seems to be some confusion between Computer Controlled Flight and Auto Pilot.
IIRC, there were 4 Categories of Auto-Pilot. Including Flight from 400 ft of Altitude after Takeoff until the final 400 ft of Approach to Landing. And from 200ft beginning to end. And 100 ft begin to end. And entire sequence from Takeoff until Touchdown and Stop. That last one was never allowed to be selected on the Auto Pilot. I believe that one was Category 1. I believe the 400 ft one was Category IV, and that was the only selection I ever saw selected when installing the Auto Pilot.

Auto Pilots have been used since at least the 1970s, and I think the 1960s.

It is not really the Auto Pilot which is causing failures, it is the Flight Computers, and the lack of experience ingrained in Pilots who no longer ever fly the bird.

Airbus has been the most Safety-Designed birds built.
Frozen Pitot Tubes are a known potential failure. When Pilots depart Visual Flight Rules flight, they are required to dedicate complete faith to Instruments. Without visual reference due to dark, fog, etc, they must trust the instrument readings to be true indicators of Airspeed, A-o-A, Altitude, Bank. When the first 2 Pitot Tubes freeze up, caution should be exercised before relying upon the final.

ummmmm.
The MCAS is a new development. It does not stand for Marine Corps Air Station in this instance.
The Manoeuvering Characteristics Augmentation System is suspected in the causes of the MAX crashes. The MCAS is disengaged when Auto-Pilot is active. MCAS is engaged when Auto-Pilot is disengaged, and Pilots were not informed, not allowed to know that this Flight Control override even existed. So, Nose-Dive procedures are to disengage Auto-Pilot, so that MCAS will put you into a Nose-Dive.

SECOND

Monday, March 18, 2019 10:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

In the case of one sensor, the Pilot was able to have enough sense to know what corrective flight control to attempt, but the Flight Computer kept overriding the Pilot's efforts, because we gave the computer the authority to do everything for us. Even when it is wrong. Computers do not have a self-preservation instinct, but Pilots do.

These pilots did not have the instinct of self-preservation or else they would know how this crash could be prevented: By turning the Stab Trim switches to OFF. This disables the horizontal stabilizer's trim completely, and reverts to manual trim, preventing MCAS from making inputs to the aircraft. This means that the pilots must manually move/rotate the trim wheels in order to apply pitch trim during flight.
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/61203/how-difficult-is-it
-to-simply-disable-disengage-the-mcas-on-boeing-737-max-8-9/61208#61208

I've saved my life a thousand times by using the OFF switch. These pilots could have, too, but didn't have the commonsense to try. That does not exonerate Boeing from a crappy design that kills pilots lacking commonsense. It does not exonerate the FAA from letting Boeing sell a crappy design.

The unexpected can easily cause a pilot's brain to lock, especially when they think "I'M ALREADY DOING THE RIGHT ACTION WHY ISN'T IT WORKING!?!?!", and they continue to (ineffectively) fight the controls as the ground gets closer and closer, the stick is shaking and alarms are going nuts.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SIGNYM

Monday, March 18, 2019 11:16 PM

No matter what the issue or event, we can always count on SECOND to find a way to say It's All Trump's Fault. So despite the fact that the max series design was begun in 2011 and Boeing was in constant communication with the FAA during the design and certification process (for example, the FAA had to approve the request to certify the max series as a "modification" instead of as a whole new design) I think we can take as a given that SECOND will work Trump into the thread somehow, and ignore anything it posts aloong those lines.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

SECOND

Tuesday, March 19, 2019 12:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
No matter what the issue or event, we can always count on SECOND to find a way to say It's All Trump's Fault. So despite the fact that the max series design was begun in 2011 and Boeing was in constant communication with the FAA during the design and certification process (for example, the FAA had to approve the request to certify the max series as a "modification" instead of as a whole new design) I think we can take as a given that SECOND will work Trump into the thread somehow, and ignore anything it posts aloong those lines.

Boeing's design was unintentionally crappy, killing two plane-loads. The FAA didn't double-check Boeing's design because the FAA's budget was cut by Republicans in Congress, so that the FAA couldn't protect the World from Boeing's mistakes. This is how the world works, Signym, but you misunderstand the simplest things about Boeing doing the FAA's review of Boeing's design because the FAA didn't have the staff, because of Congress, to do the work:

Several FAA technical experts said in interviews that as certification proceeded, managers prodded them to speed the process. Development of the MAX was lagging nine months behind the rival Airbus A320neo. Time was of the essence for Boeing.

A former FAA safety engineer who was directly involved in certifying the MAX said that halfway through the certification process, “we were asked by management to re-evaluate what would be delegated. Management thought we had retained too much at the FAA. There was constant pressure to re-evaluate our initial decisions,” the former engineer said. “And even after we had reassessed it … there was continued discussion by management about delegating even more items down to the Boeing Company.”

Even the work that was retained, such as reviewing technical documents provided by Boeing, was sometimes curtailed.

“There wasn’t a complete and proper review of the documents,” the former engineer added. “Review was rushed to reach certain certification dates.”

When time was too short for FAA technical staff to complete a review, sometimes managers either signed off on the documents themselves or delegated their review back to Boeing.

www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

This is roughly equivalent to Republicans in Congress cutting back the IRS budget so that it cannot audit tax returns. The result isn't a plane crash, instead, $2 trillion income goes unreported and $500 billion tax is not collected. It is a deliberate policy by Congress to give a tax cut to cheaters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_evasion_in_the_United_States

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

RUE

Tuesday, March 19, 2019 12:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Several FAA technical experts said in interviews that as certification proceeded, managers prodded them to speed the process. Development of the MAX was lagging nine months behind the rival Airbus A320neo. Time was of the essence for Boeing.

A former FAA safety engineer who was directly involved in certifying the MAX said that halfway through the certification process, “we were asked by management to re-evaluate what would be delegated. Management thought we had retained too much at the FAA. There was constant pressure to re-evaluate our initial decisions,” the former engineer said. “And even after we had reassessed it … there was continued discussion by management about delegating even more items down to the Boeing Company.”

Even the work that was retained, such as reviewing technical documents provided by Boeing, was sometimes curtailed.

“There wasn’t a complete and proper review of the documents,” the former engineer added. “Review was rushed to reach certain certification dates.”

When time was too short for FAA technical staff to complete a review, sometimes managers either signed off on the documents themselves or delegated their review back to Boeing.

www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

Wasn't the redesign and certification all begun in 2011? Remind me who was president then. Because I'm sure that president had to sign the budget or risk a shutdown.
Or are you not talking about the 2011-2016 period when the plane was being redesigned and put into service, and instead conflating two unrelated things?

SIGNYM

Tuesday, March 19, 2019 12:42 AM

The DOJ has opened a criminal inquiry of ... Boeing? The FAA? Both?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Tuesday, March 19, 2019 6:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Several FAA technical experts said in interviews that as certification proceeded, managers prodded them to speed the process. Development of the MAX was lagging nine months behind the rival Airbus A320neo. Time was of the essence for Boeing.

A former FAA safety engineer who was directly involved in certifying the MAX said that halfway through the certification process, “we were asked by management to re-evaluate what would be delegated. Management thought we had retained too much at the FAA. There was constant pressure to re-evaluate our initial decisions,” the former engineer said. “And even after we had reassessed it … there was continued discussion by management about delegating even more items down to the Boeing Company.”

Even the work that was retained, such as reviewing technical documents provided by Boeing, was sometimes curtailed.

“There wasn’t a complete and proper review of the documents,” the former engineer added. “Review was rushed to reach certain certification dates.”

When time was too short for FAA technical staff to complete a review, sometimes managers either signed off on the documents themselves or delegated their review back to Boeing.

www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/
Wasn't the redesign and certification all begun in 2011? Remind me who was president then. Because I'm sure that president had to sign the budget or risk a shutdown.
Or are you not talking about the 2011-2016 period when the plane was being redesigned and put into service, and instead conflating two unrelated things?

Redesign started in 2011. First flew new design Feb 2016. Certified by Mar 2017.

I think everything which occurred from 2010 to Jan 2017 was blamed on Bush, as far as Libtards go.

From what I can tell, Trump's Budget request for FY 2019 was $17.5B for FAA.
FY2010 was $9.336B and FY2017 was $10.0B for FAA.
Bobo must have had some Racist Policies and Gender Studies which were more important than funding Aviation Safety. Maybe his superior levels of illiteracy rendered him believing Aviation was the Bird Exhibit at the Zoo.

So. That is flatline funding during Bobo's Regime, and a sharp uptick in funding from Trump. And yes, FY 2019 began at the beginning of Oct 2018, before any crash of 737 MAX.
And yes, FY2010 was Bobo and the Rock-The-Vote Democraps legislating in CY 2009.

BTW, the slang term for the 737 was the Baby Boeing, because it was so much smaller and kinda fatter than most Boeings. Before MAX, it sat quite low, and the bottom of the engine nacelles were like a flattened oval. Most commercial birds you could sneak under the belly depending upon load and fuel state, but you had to walk around any Baby that wasn't on jacks.

The MAX engines are more efficient and larger around, so the suspension and Landing Gear had to be larger, creating different aerodynamics, causing introduction of MCAS.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Tuesday, March 19, 2019 6:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
This is what happens when we let computers do everything for us.
Wrong. The design would crash the plane when one sensor fails. One. Sensor. Fails. The people who work at Boeing knew this BEFORE THE CRASH. They spoke to the Seattle Times, which kept their names secret because otherwise they will be fired from Boeing. The Times wants to write future stories about Boeing and it wants its sources to continue working there.
www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

Here you are wrong again, as usual. 6ix made a correct statement.
Just like today's kids don't know how to do math, because their handheld device tells them what to think, today's Pilots do not have the experience of flying planes, enduring long boring flights while at the controls.
Perhaps 6ix did not intend this context, but his statement is accurate.

In the case of one sensor, the Pilot was able to have enough sense to know what corrective flight control to attempt, but the Flight Computer kept overriding the Pilot's efforts, because we gave the computer the authority to do everything for us. Even when it is wrong. Computers do not have a self-preservation instinct, but Pilots do.

That, and more, was my intent. Not only don't they get any experience, literally being able to doze off while "piloting" as if it were a night job at a hospital security desk, but the qualifications for such a job have much lower standards than they used to as well.

You see it everywhere. That's why companies can't wait to fire the old dogs, no matter how much experience and knowledge they had, when they can hire three new idiots out of college for what they were being paid.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Tuesday, March 19, 2019 9:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
This is what happens when we let computers do everything for us.
Wrong. The design would crash the plane when one sensor fails. One. Sensor. Fails. The people who work at Boeing knew this BEFORE THE CRASH. They spoke to the Seattle Times, which kept their names secret because otherwise they will be fired from Boeing. The Times wants to write future stories about Boeing and it wants its sources to continue working there.
www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

Here you are wrong again, as usual. 6ix made a correct statement.
Just like today's kids don't know how to do math, because their handheld device tells them what to think, today's Pilots do not have the experience of flying planes, enduring long boring flights while at the controls.
Perhaps 6ix did not intend this context, but his statement is accurate.

In the case of one sensor, the Pilot was able to have enough sense to know what corrective flight control to attempt, but the Flight Computer kept overriding the Pilot's efforts, because we gave the computer the authority to do everything for us. Even when it is wrong. Computers do not have a self-preservation instinct, but Pilots do.

That, and more, was my intent. Not only don't they get any experience, literally being able to doze off while "piloting" as if it were a night job at a hospital security desk, but the qualifications for such a job have much lower standards than they used to as well.

You see it everywhere. That's why companies can't wait to fire the old dogs, no matter how much experience and knowledge they had, when they can hire three new idiots out of college for what they were being paid.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

Would you like to guess what are the 2 most worn out spots for each seat location, total of 4 per cockpit? My answers are for over 30 years ago, and are certainly germane today, but do not apply to Flight Engineers or Navigators.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, March 19, 2019 11:54 AM

Quote:
Would you like to guess what are the 2 most worn out spots for each seat location, total of 4 per cockpit?

I couldn't possibly guess, but I'd sure like to know!

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

SECOND

Wednesday, March 20, 2019 5:44 AM

Capt. Sullenberger on the FAA and Boeing:

For too many years, the FAA has not been provided budgets sufficient to ensure appropriate oversight of a rapidly growing global aviation industry. Staffing has not been adequate for FAA employees to oversee much of the critically important work of validating and approving aircraft certification. Instead, much of the work has been outsourced by designating aircraft manufacturer employees to do the work on behalf of the FAA. This, of course, has created inherent conflicts of interest, when employees working for the company whose products must be certified to meet safety standards are the ones doing much of the work of certifying them. There simply are not nearly enough FAA employees to do this important work in-house.

Boeing, in developing the 737 Max 8, obviously felt intense competitive pressure to get the new aircraft to market as quickly as possible. When flight testing revealed an issue with meeting the certification standards, they developed a fix, Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS), but did not tell airline pilots about it. In mitigating one risk, they seem to have created another, greater risk.

After the crash of Lion Air 610 last October, it was apparent that this new risk needed to be effectively addressed. It has been reported that Boeing pushed back in discussions with the FAA about the extent of changes that would be required, and after the second crash, of Ethiopian 302, the Boeing CEO reached out to the U.S. President to try to keep the 737 Max 8 from being grounded in the U.S. The new fix still has not been fielded, nearly five months after Lion Air. It almost certainly could have been done sooner, and should have been.

www.marketwatch.com/story/capt-sully-sullenberger-where-boeing-and-the
-faa-went-wrong-in-this-ugly-saga-2019-03-19

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SIGNYM

Wednesday, March 20, 2019 8:27 AM

the inet ate my post

Then I got looged out then the Youtube search got scrambled

This guy is usually funny, I recommend most of his videos (NSFW) for sheer hilarity; he uses a word which must be a Candianism: skookum (solid, well built). In this case I disagree with his conclusion, but he details wht the pilot would have needed to have done to save the airplane. NOTE: None of this is in the manual.

Also, when he finds out there was only one aoa sensor (additional sensors were offered as an "option") I think he'll change his mind and put much more blame on Boeing.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Wednesday, March 20, 2019 9:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
Would you like to guess what are the 2 most worn out spots for each seat location, total of 4 per cockpit?
I couldn't possibly guess, but I'd sure like to know!

On the ledge of the dash there are 2 wear spots about the width of shoes. This is where the Officer not in Command parks his feet. All other parts in the cockpit get replaced, upgraded, repaired. The dashboard does not get replaced.

The cockpit voice recorder usually has stuff like "No, that's a cow, and over there is Italy"
They are describing clouds, like kids. One of the critical obligations of Pilots remains to exercise visual scan and observation of the sky, and imagine how boring this must be to watch an empty sky for the entire duration of a flight. And your depth perception could go loopy.

RUE

Wednesday, March 20, 2019 10:45 AM

I wonder what the voice recorder had when the guy in a lawn chair launched himself with weather balloons and drifted into the LAX flight path.

What are those ... weather balloons? Why are they all bunched ... wait ... ... do you see something hanging underneath ... ?

SECOND

Wednesday, March 20, 2019 6:04 PM

Pilot who hitched a ride saved Lion Air 737 a day before deadly crash

That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation. The extra pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize.

Most 737 Max pilots faced with the malfunction are able to avert disaster, while others lose control of their planes and crash.

More at www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-19/how-an-extra-man-in-cockpit
-saved-a-737-max-that-later-crashed

At the order of Congress, the FAA increasingly delegated some “nuts-and-bolts” certification responsibilities to manufacturers.

The US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) hasn’t had a proper top official since its last chief departed 14 months ago. That could soon change, with the White House saying yesterday that president Donald Trump will nominate former Delta Airlines executive Steve Dickson to lead the agency.

The FAA’s top three positions are all held by officials in an acting capacity. James Norton, founder of consultancy Play-Action Strategies, which advises companies on getting federal contracts, told Quartz earlier: “When you have interim or acting people for a long period of time, that puts everyone else in an interim role in that chain of command, adding that over two years into the Trump administration is “a long time” to not have permanent management in place at the FAA.

More at https://qz.com/1576630/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SECOND

Saturday, March 23, 2019 12:15 AM

In the aftermath of the Lion Air crash, Boeing pointed to long-established procedures that pilots could have used to handle a malfunction of the anti-stall system, regardless of whether the pilots knew MCAS existed.

That checklist tells pilots to switch off the two stabilizer trim cutout switches on the central console, and then to adjust the aircraft’s stabilizers manually using trim wheels.

The 737 MAX can fly without MCAS, so the feature was not considered “flight-critical” even though it has extraordinary power to steer the plane, said an industry expert with knowledge of the system who spoke on condition of anonymity. MCAS controls the large horizontal wing on the plane’s tail known as the stabilizer, while the pilot controls smaller flaps or “elevators” on the stabilizer.

Over several minutes, the stabilizer can shift position enough that the elevator controls can no longer counteract the downward direction of the plane, the source said.

“They gave more control power to the automation than to the pilot,” the source said of the MCAS design.

The Lion Air pilots flew for about five minutes by using the elevator to counteract the stabilizer every 15 or 20 seconds, said John Hansman, an aeronautics professor at MIT, based on readings from the flight data recorder. After that, the pilot tried pulling back hard on the controls.

“That’s what suggests that the crew didn’t understand the system. They thought they were shutting MCAS off and didn’t,” Hansman said. “Whereas any time during the entire sequence, they could have reached to the middle console and just shut it off.”

More at www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-airplane-controls-explainer/change
-to-737-max-controls-may-have-imperiled-planes-experts-say-idUSKCN1R322M

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SIGNYM

Saturday, March 23, 2019 6:11 AM

Those required actions were in the AvE video.

Basically you have to shut off the power to the electronics. That supposes that you've adequately troubleshot the plane ... while falling like a stone from the sky... to realize that the trouble is in the software or electronics and not hydraulic or mechanical or even meteorological (microburst).

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

RUE

Saturday, March 23, 2019 7:26 AM

SECOND'S opinions are one article deep.

SIGNYM

Saturday, March 23, 2019 8:25 AM

Less than one article. I swear to God he doesn't even read what he posts, just grabs the headline

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

SECOND

Saturday, March 23, 2019 4:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Those required actions were in the AvE video.

Basically you have to shut off the power to the electronics. That supposes that you've adequately troubleshot the plane ... while falling like a stone from the sky... to realize that the trouble is in the software or electronics and not hydraulic or mechanical or even meteorological (microburst).

Signym, basically you are full of shit. Boeing pointed to long-established procedures that pilots use. That checklist tells pilots to switch off the two stabilizer trim cutout switches on the central console and then to adjust the aircraft’s stabilizers manually using trim wheels. See the youtube video, below, starting at 2:55 minutes.

Hey, Signym and rue/1kiki, tell me that it is illegal for the FBI to investigate Boeing. You two have claimed it is illegal in the same way for the FBI to investigate Trump:

Criminal investigations into the U.S. aviation industry are rare — in part because of the longstanding belief that a civil-enforcement system better promotes candid reporting of concerns without fear of criminal repercussions.

The FBI has joined the criminal investigation into the certification of the Boeing 737 MAX, lending its considerable resources to an inquiry already being conducted by U.S. Department of Transportation agents, according to people familiar with the matter. "The federal grand jury investigation, based in Washington, D.C., is looking into the certification process that approved the safety of the new Boeing plane, two of which have crashed since October.

The federal grand jury investigation, based in Washington, D.C., is looking into the certification process that approved the safety of the new Boeing plane, two of which have crashed since October.

The FBI’s Seattle field office lies in proximity to Boeing’s 737 manufacturing plant in Renton, as well as nearby offices of Boeing and Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) officials involved in the certification of the plane.

The investigation, which is being overseen by the U.S. Justice Department’s criminal division and carried out by the Transportation Department’s Inspector General, began in response to information obtained after a Lion Air 737 MAX 8 crashed shortly after takeoff from Jakarta on Oct. 29, killing 189 people, Bloomberg reported earlier this week, citing an unnamed source.

It has widened since then, The Associated Press reported this week, with the grand jury issuing a subpoena on March 11 for information from someone involved in the plane’s development, one day after the crash of an Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 near Addis Ababa that killed 157 people.

More at www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/fbi-joining-criminal-in
vestigation-into-certification-of-boeing-737-max/

Starting at 2:55 minutes: stabilizer malfunction on the simulator.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

6IXSTRINGJACK

Saturday, March 23, 2019 9:41 PM

Don't you herd cows old man? What do you know about planes?

Do Right, Be Right. :)

SECOND

Saturday, March 23, 2019 10:36 PM

This picture is a trimmable horizontal stabilizer. The electric motors that move the stabilizer killed two plane loads of 737 Max 8 passengers. The pilots would be alive today if they had the good sense to turn off those motors with the readily available switches and then use muscle power to adjust the stabilizer.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Trimmable_horizonta
l_stabiliser.JPG

This is how it works:

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

6IXSTRINGJACK

Saturday, March 23, 2019 11:17 PM

All I know about planes is that if you don't get on one, you can't die in one.

Served me well for going on 40 years.

My condolences to anyone who didn't know this. Whether they died at the hands of Corporate Greed through putting out faulty aircrafts knowingly, or Corporate Greed through putting a bunch of idiots in control of the planes that weren't trained enough to fly them.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

SIGNYM

Saturday, March 23, 2019 11:21 PM

Hey SECOND< you are, as usual, a lying sack of shit.

I never said it was "illegal" to investigate Trump. what WAS illegal was to withhold evidence from the judge granting the FISA warrant about the lack of credibility behind the "dossier" used to get the warrant. Another part that was illegal were the leaks about the "dossier", and other (baseless) anti-Trump allegations floating around. For all I know, the surveillance of Trump and dangling "oppo research" in front of his campaign team was a form of entrapment, ALSO illegal.

I've also said it was SELECTIVE and MALICIOUS POLITICALLY-MOTIVATED prosecution, which - while not technically illegal, certainly tells me that the the FBI, CIA, DOJ, NSA etc are NOT above politics, and reduces my confidence in these institutions greatly.

If you weren't such a tool and if you stopped obssessing about Trump, Texas Republicans and the GOP in general to the exclusion of everything else (like, yanno, facts) you might stop being a lying sack of shit.

But why am I arguing with a religious person? You have your delusions and nothing will shake them from you.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

SECOND

Sunday, March 24, 2019 12:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

I've also said it was SELECTIVE and MALICIOUS POLITICALLY-MOTIVATED prosecution, which - while not technically illegal, certainly tells me that the the FBI, CIA, DOJ, NSA etc are NOT above politics, and reduces my confidence in these institutions greatly.

The grand jury and the ordinary jury exist to stop "selective and malicious politically-motivated prosecution" of Boeing or Trump. That is 2 dozen citizens volunteering to oversee prosecutors on each case. That's enough to keep it safe. Or do you think prosecutors need a third and fourth jury? A grander jury and the grandest jury in addition to the grand jury and the plain-vanilla jury?

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

RUE

Sunday, March 24, 2019 4:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SECOND:
The grand jury and the ordinary jury exist to stop "selective and malicious politically-motivated prosecution" of Boeing or Trump. That is 2 dozen citizens volunteering to oversee prosecutors on each case. That's enough to keep it safe. Or do you think prosecutors need a third and fourth jury? A grander jury and the grandest jury in addition to the grand jury and the plain-vanilla jury?

Do you accept that the process found nothing to indict Trump on?

SIGNYM

Sunday, March 24, 2019 4:25 AM

Well I noticed that SLOPPY SECONDS totally ignored the probable illegal aspects of the so- called "investigation" by the FBI.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

RUE

Sunday, March 24, 2019 4:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well I noticed that SLOPPY SECONDS totally ignored the probable illegal aspects of the so- called "investigation" by the FBI.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

Of course.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Sunday, March 24, 2019 5:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I've also said it was SELECTIVE and MALICIOUS POLITICALLY-MOTIVATED prosecution, which - while not technically illegal, certainly tells me that the the FBI, CIA, DOJ, NSA etc are NOT above politics, and reduces my confidence in these institutions greatly.
The grand jury and the ordinary jury exist to stop "selective and malicious politically-motivated prosecution" of Boeing or Trump. That is 2 dozen citizens volunteering to oversee prosecutors on each case. That's enough to keep it safe. Or do you think prosecutors need a third and fourth jury? A grander jury and the grandest jury in addition to the grand jury and the plain-vanilla jury?

Another example of a Troll. This Troll believes Citizens are not spoon-fed pablum from Prosecutors. That Grand Juries never indict an innocent victim. That Juries never convict an innocent victim. That Grand Juries won't Indict a ham sandwich. That no innocent victims have ever been imprisoned.

Beginning to blur the line between Troll and Tool.

SECOND

Sunday, March 24, 2019 7:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I've also said it was SELECTIVE and MALICIOUS POLITICALLY-MOTIVATED prosecution, which - while not technically illegal, certainly tells me that the the FBI, CIA, DOJ, NSA etc are NOT above politics, and reduces my confidence in these institutions greatly.
The grand jury and the ordinary jury exist to stop "selective and malicious politically-motivated prosecution" of Boeing or Trump. That is 2 dozen citizens volunteering to oversee prosecutors on each case. That's enough to keep it safe. Or do you think prosecutors need a third and fourth jury? A grander jury and the grandest jury in addition to the grand jury and the plain-vanilla jury?
Another example of a Troll. This Troll believes Citizens are not spoon-fed pablum from Prosecutors. That Grand Juries never indict an innocent victim. That Juries never convict an innocent victim. That Grand Juries won't Indict a ham sandwich. That no innocent victims have ever been imprisoned.

Beginning to blur the line between Troll and Tool.

Poor Donald Trump, Paul Manafort, Michael Cohen, and maybe Boeing. Innocent victims of Americans voluntarily serving on grand juries. Maybe Trump should decide who to prosecute? Then all grand juries become unnecessary, at least until a Democrat is elected President. Grand juries would then become necessary, again.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SECOND

Thursday, March 28, 2019 5:00 PM

Under fire from lawmakers on Capitol Hill over the two deadly Boeing crashes, the head of the Federal Aviation Administration on Wednesday defended the agency’s practice of relying on aircraft makers to help certify their own planes for flight. He said the agency would need 10,000 more employees and an additional $1.8 billion a year to do all the work now done by designated employees of the companies it regulates. I suggest the FAA hire those 10,000 Boeing workers. That way the workers' loyalty will be to the FAA, not Boeing.

More at www.apnews.com/8ecbc753563643f6b4c818262285e02e

In Boeing, a lesson: even when the stakes are highest, companies can’t successfully regulate themselves. If any industry has a massive interest in successful self-regulation, it’s airplane builders — and it seems they can’t.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

6IXSTRINGJACK

Thursday, March 28, 2019 5:41 PM

I remember the good old days when the Democrats were absolutely against alphabet agencies like the FBI. For, yanno, making people disappear and stuff like that.

Don't worry though. Just like they turned on Comey and are starting to turn on Mueller, it won't be long until the Democrats turn on the FBI again.

Unfortunately, at this point, that means very little.

MUELLER WAS THE FUCKING GUY WHO LIED TO CONGRESS ABOUT WMD'S IN IRAQ, DIPSHITS!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Read a book.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

SECOND

Thursday, March 28, 2019 11:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I remember the good old days when the Democrats were absolutely against alphabet agencies like the FBI. For, yanno, making people disappear and stuff like that.

The Democrats were mad at J. Edgar Hoover, first Director of the FBI and a Republican, because he had his agents harass every civil rights leader, from Martin Luther King, Jr on down to the lowest civil rights marcher. Thankfully, fatso Hoover dropped dead from a heart attack in 1972 (we should be so lucky with even fatter Trump). American government has a functional problem with officials, judges, Senators, etc. staying too long and believing they own their job -- it is theirs for life. Hoover stayed 48 years as head of the FBI.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover#Late_career_and_death

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SIGNYM

Friday, March 29, 2019 1:21 AM

In a thread about the 737 max, whose f design began in 2011 smack dab in the middle of the Obama administration andwhose continuing reviews occurred mostly under Obama's reign, SECONDRATE brings up Trump.

Why?

Because SECONDRATE is an unhinged hater who should be ignored until he comes to his senses.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Friday, March 29, 2019 5:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
In a thread about the 737 max, whose f design began in 2011 smack dab in the middle of the Obama administration andwhose continuing reviews occurred mostly under Obama's reign, SECONDRATE brings up Trump.

Why?

Because SECONDRATE is an unhinged hater who should be ignored until he comes to his senses.

Somebody is overly optimistic about the future.

Push too hard, he'll blame it on Bush.

SECOND

Friday, March 29, 2019 7:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
In a thread about the 737 max, whose f design began in 2011 smack dab in the middle of the Obama administration andwhose continuing reviews occurred mostly under Obama's reign, SECONDRATE brings up Trump.

Why?

Because SECONDRATE is an unhinged hater who should be ignored until he comes to his senses.
Somebody is overly optimistic about the future.

Push too hard, he'll blame it on Bush.

I'd blame it on Republicans because Republicans in Congress did it. I have never, never, never seen in real life a Republican immediately and graciously take responsibility for what they did. Never. It is some weird mental quirk that a Republican needs to have facts shoved literally, not figuratively, down his throat and he is choking on them before he will admit to the facts existing. Have I made it clear that Trump supporters are committed to denying reality until it hurts?

In 2004, aviation unions and other critics offered dire warnings when the Federal Aviation Administration proposed expanding the role of aircraft manufacturers like Boeing in deciding whether their planes were safe to fly: It would be “reckless,” they wrote, would “lower the safety of the flying public” and would lead to “ever increasing air disaster.”

Fifteen years later, the FAA’s strategy of delegating much of its regulatory oversight to hundreds of employees at the companies it oversees may be too entrenched to reverse — even with the intense scrutiny on how Boeing’s troubled 737 MAX jet won approval to fly.

The FAA has been acting at the direction of Congress, amid pressure from industry players like Boeing to help them compete with foreign rivals by speeding up approvals of new aircraft. The agency maintains that it has used its cooperation with industry to make air travel safer. But government watchdogs have raised red flags about the FAA’s oversight of the program, which puts companies in charge of duties such as doing inspections and vetting engineering designs, with the agency’s supervision.

More at www.politico.com/story/2019/03/21/congress-faa-boeing-oversight-128790
2

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SIGNYM

Friday, March 29, 2019 10:19 PM

Quote:

In a thread about the 737 max, whose f design began in 2011 smack dab in the middle of the Obama administration andwhose continuing reviews occurred mostly under Obama's reign, SECONDRATE brings up Trump.
Why?
Because SECONDRATE is an unhinged hater who should be ignored until he comes to his senses.- SIGNY

Somebody is overly optimistic about the future.
Push too hard, he'll blame it on Bush.- SIX

Blah blah blah ... In 2004 ...

AHA! SIX, you nailed it! SECOND is going back to the BUSH era.

Still keeping SECOND on ignore ....

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

SECOND

Sunday, March 31, 2019 7:45 PM

There is no clear consensus on when the Boeing 737 MAX will fly again. However, some airlines are banking on using the aircraft from July. Air Canada has currently removed the aircraft from its schedules until 1st July, while TUI has arranged cover for the aircraft until mid-July. There is considerable uncertainty around when the 737 Max will return to service.

https://simpleflying.com/boeing-737-max-flying-again/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SECOND

Sunday, March 31, 2019 7:55 PM

The 737 Max’s instability problems eerily echoed another ’60s design, the Cheyenne. At the time, Piper Aircraft wanted to build a more powerful version of its popular twin-engine light aircraft, the Navajo. Piper swapped out its piston engines for turboprops. Like the 737 Max, the Cheyenne had a design that involved putting more powerful engines further forward on the wing.

Jack Webb was Piper’s chief engineering test pilot during most of the Cheyenne development process. “As we were going along, I discovered a kind of scary dynamic-stability problem,” he says. It was the same problem the 737 Max would later have, for the same reason. And as Boeing would later do, Piper tried to fix the problem by adding automation — in its case, a device called a “stability-augmentation system” (SAS) that would push the nose down if it got too high.

Webb came to realize that if the pilot wasn’t properly trained, the SAS could actually worsen the instability. The problem was that the system could get into a feedback loop with the human pilot. Not understanding why the nose was starting to go down, the pilot would pull up, to which the SAS would respond by pushing down. Since each has a lag in their response time, they wind up chasing one another, causing the plane to enter a series of increasingly steep climbs and dives.

Webb believes that this kind of up-and-down motion can take place even when the system is functioning as designed. He has looked at several accidents involving the Cheyenne, “and it’s a classic picture. It looks like the airplane’s on a roller-coaster ride before it crashes. The pilots just get behind the input necessary to stabilize the airplane. They’re fighting it.”

Webb believes that, based on his experience with the Cheyenne, these fixes won’t eliminate the Max’s predilection for roller-coastering. Even if Webb is wrong, and the 737 Max is safe so long as its MCAS is working as intended, that still leaves another problem. A single malfunctioning sensor will cause the system to turn off, thus putting the plane back in the condition that the FAA deemed too unstable to grant an airworthiness certificate.

There is a straightforward solution for all the 737 Max’s problems: to reduce the plane’s pitch up tendency, Boeing could lengthen the landing gear and move the engines further back under the wing; and to increase stability, it could increase the size of the tail. There’s a reason that Boeing won’t do that: All existing 737 Maxs would go to the junkyard.

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/is-the-boeing-737-max-worth-sav
ing.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SECOND

Monday, April 1, 2019 5:33 PM

There was a prominent no-show among the 200 regulators, pilots and airline managers that Boeing Co. invited to preview a crucial software update for the 737 Max this week, said people familiar with the matter: the European Union Aviation Safety Agency (EASA).

EASA’s snub points to the delicate politics Boeing faces in convincing regulators the Max is safe as the company seeks to restore confidence in its bestselling jet, which has been grounded for more than two weeks. The reputation of U.S. regulators has taken a hit in the scrutiny of the 737 Max's approval process, and foreign agencies are less likely to rubber-stamp aircraft certifications simply because they have been cleared by the Federal Aviation Administration.

EASA is expected to play an influential role in determining how long and complicated the review of the Max will be, while safety officials from China to Canada have vowed to conduct their own rigorous analysis.

More at www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-737-max-boeing-eu-20190331-story.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SECOND

Tuesday, April 2, 2019 11:32 PM

Boeing executives are offering a simple explanation for why the company’s best-selling plane in the world, the 737 Max 8, crashed twice in the past several months. Executives claimed on March 27 that the cause was a software problem — and that a new software upgrade fixes it.

But this open-and-shut version of events conflicts with what diligent reporters in the aviation press have uncovered in the weeks since Asia, Europe, Canada, and then the United States grounded the planes.

The specifics of what happened in the regulatory system are still emerging. But the big picture is coming into view: A major employer faced a major financial threat, and short-term politics and greed won out over the integrity of the regulatory system. It’s a scandal.

More at www.vox.com/business-and-finance/2019/3/29/18281270/737-max-faa-scanda
l-explained

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SIGNYM

Wednesday, April 3, 2019 8:45 PM

According to WJS [via ZH], the pilots of the Ethiopian jet DID turn off the electric motors and attempt manual control, but apparently felt that procedure wasn't working (or maybe wasn't working fast enough) so the turned the electric motors back on which re-engaged the MACS and sent the plane into its final nose dive.

Quote:
The pilots on Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 initially reacted to the emergency by shutting off power to electric motors driven by the automated system, these people said, but then appear to have re-engaged the system to cope with a persistent steep nose-down angle. It wasn’t immediately clear why the pilots turned the automated system back on instead of continuing to follow Boeing’s standard emergency checklist, but government and industry officials said the likely reason would have been because manual controls to raise the nose didn’t achieve the desired results.

After first cranking a manual wheel in the cockpit that controls the same movable surfaces on the plane’s tail that MCAS had affected, the pilots turned electric power back on, one of these people said. They began to use electric switches to try to raise the plane’s nose, according to these people. But the electric power also reactivated MCAS, allowing it to continue its strong downward commands, the people said.

Reuters, which was also the recipient of leaks from investigators, offered a slightly different version of events. It reported that MCAS was reengaged four times as pilots scrambled to right the plane, and that investigators were looking into the possibility that the software might have reengaged without prompting from the pilots.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-03/bad-news-boeing-preliminary-
report-shows-anti-stall-software-sealed-flight-et302s

Of course, these are leaked fragments of a preliminary report, obviously being interpreted differently by different media outlets. Even with a full report we may not know exacly what happened ... IIRC the cockpit voice recorder was damaged beyond retrievability by the high speed of the crash.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Wednesday, April 3, 2019 9:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
According to WJS [via ZH], the pilots of the Ethiopian jet DID turn off the electric motors and attempt manual control, but apparently felt that procedure wasn't working (or maybe wasn't working fast enough) so the turned the electric motors back on which re-engaged the MACS and sent the plane into its final nose dive.
Quote:
The pilots on Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 initially reacted to the emergency by shutting off power to electric motors driven by the automated system, these people said, but then appear to have re-engaged the system to cope with a persistent steep nose-down angle. It wasn’t immediately clear why the pilots turned the automated system back on instead of continuing to follow Boeing’s standard emergency checklist, but government and industry officials said the likely reason would have been because manual controls to raise the nose didn’t achieve the desired results.

After first cranking a manual wheel in the cockpit that controls the same movable surfaces on the plane’s tail that MCAS had affected, the pilots turned electric power back on, one of these people said. They began to use electric switches to try to raise the plane’s nose, according to these people. But the electric power also reactivated MCAS, allowing it to continue its strong downward commands, the people said.

Reuters, which was also the recipient of leaks from investigators, offered a slightly different version of events. It reported that MCAS was reengaged four times as pilots scrambled to right the plane, and that investigators were looking into the possibility that the software might have reengaged without prompting from the pilots.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-03/bad-news-boeing-preliminary-
report-shows-anti-stall-software-sealed-flight-et302s

Of course, these are leaked fragments of a preliminary report, obviously being interpreted differently by different media outlets. Even with a full report we may not know exacly what happened ... IIRC the cockpit voice recorder was damaged beyond retrievability by the high speed of the crash.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Thursday, April 4, 2019 1:09 AM

A little bit more of the same:

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-737-max-defense-just-10235028
7.html

(Bloomberg Opinion) -- In the wake of the October crash involving a Lion Air Boeing 737 Max jet in Indonesia, Boeing Co. sent out a bulletin reminding pilots how to counteract an un-commanded descent.

The implication was that even if the passenger jet’s so-called MCAS anti-stall software malfunctions due to erroneous data and pushes the nose down, the crew should still be able to save the plane — as happened on an earlier Lion Air flight.

“The 737 Max is as safe as any airplane that has ever flown the skies,” Boeing swiftly concluded.

Lion Air was furious that the manufacturer appeared to be casting doubt on its safety culture, but for everyone else it sent a comforting message: Perhaps Boeing was right about the 737 Max.

So when a second 737 Max aircraft crashed last month in similar circumstances in Ethiopia, there was puzzlement: Surely the pilot must have known about MCAS and how to switch it off. So why hadn’t he?

On Wednesday, the Wall Street Journal provided an initial answer to that question, and it’s not a reassuring one for Boeing, its investors and customers.

The Ethiopian Airlines pilot did manage to disable MCAS, at least temporarily, but was still unable to get the aircraft to climb again, the newspaper reported, citing people familiar with the crash investigation’s preliminary findings.

If that is correct, then Boeing and the U.S. regulators may have provided insufficient advice to pilots in their initial bulletin and were too hasty in pronouncing the aircraft safe. It would also increase the likelihood the manufacturer could be sued for damages. Before the Journal report, Bloomberg Intelligence put those costs at an estimated $1 billion.

The report could also sow doubt about whether the software and sensor fixes that Boeing is proposing are sufficient and thus prolong the period that the 737 Max will remain grounded. Customers like TUI AG are already preparing for the possibility they may not be able to fly the jet again for several months.

To be clear, there are other details in the Journal’s report that require further clarification. We don’t know why the crew couldn’t get the aircraft to climb. The MCAS eventually reactivated again, which forced the nose down even more. Again, it’s not clear why this happened. The Journal says the pilots switched it on, but a separate Reuters report says this may not have been intentional.

Ethiopia’s regulator is expected to release its initial report on the crash in coming days. Its counterparts in Canada, China, Europe and elsewhere were already expected scrutinize the findings, and Boeing’s proposed fixes, extremely carefully. Together with the families of the 346 crash victims, they will now be watching like hawks.

To contact the author of this story: Chris Bryant at cbryant32@bloomberg.net

To contact the editor responsible for this story: Edward Evans at eevans3@bloomberg.net

This column does not necessarily reflect the opinion of the editorial board or Bloomberg LP and its owners.

Chris Bryant is a Bloomberg Opinion columnist covering industrial companies. He previously worked for the Financial Times.

SECOND

Thursday, April 4, 2019 5:29 PM

The Ethiopian accident report (April 4th) adds to concerns about the model, because pilots were aware of the anti-stall system and appear to have done what they were supposed to if it activated erroneously—two major differences from the Lion Air crash in Indonesia that killed 189 people last October.

Responding to queries from reporters regarding the design and inherent safety of the plane, Amdeye Fenta, chief of the Ethiopian Accident Information Bureau, added, “Is there a structural design problem? We cannot predict right now.”

Reports have questioned if the two pilots on the doomed Ethiopian flight were trained on the simulator. The carrier, without confirming if they did, has said the B-737 MAX full flight simulators were not designed to simulate the MCAS situation faced by Lion Air.

https://qz.com/africa/1587323/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SECOND

Friday, April 5, 2019 5:56 PM

Yesterday, Boeing confirmed to The Washington Post that it had found a second software problem that the Federal Aviation Administration has ordered fixed - separate from the anti-stall system under investigation in the two crashes, and that had led to the aircraft's worldwide grounding.

That additional problem pertains to software affecting flaps and other flight stabilization hardware and is therefore classified as critical to flight safety, said two officials who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the ongoing probe.

The realization of a second software problem explains why the timeline that Boeing projected publicly last week for getting hundreds of the aircraft airborne again has slipped, the officials said.

Boeing initially said it planned to submit fixes for its stall-prevention system to the FAA for review last week. On Monday, an FAA spokesman said the agency instead expected to receive the final package of software "over the coming weeks."

"Obviously, we ended up at a situation that in hindsight was not supposed to happen," one of the officials familiar with the investigation told The Washington Post. "Now, you don't want to be in a situation where there was one contributing factor to an accident, and then three weeks later you, find another one.

www.philly.com/news/nation-world/software-problem-boeing-flight-contro
l-system-ethiopian-airlines-20190405.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SECOND

Friday, April 5, 2019 6:43 PM

The airline’s youngest-ever captain, a 29-year-old with an impressive 8,100 hours flying time, and his rookie 25-year-old co-pilot may have made a crucial mistake by leaving the engines at full take-off power, according to data and other pilots.

By the end, the aircraft was traveling at 500 knots (575 mph, 926 kph), far beyond its design limits. A “clacker” warning was telling the pilots their aircraft was going too fast. Data confirms the engines stayed at nearly full power. Other 737 pilots say that made the crew’s job tougher by making the controls much harder to move. . . .

That and some other potential missteps may have left them unable to fight flawed Boeing software that eventually sent the jet into an uncontrollable dive, experts said after studying the data.

“Power being left in take-off power while leveling off at that speed is not a normal procedure,” said one U.S. pilot, who declined to be named because he was not authorized to speak to the media. “I can’t imagine a scenario where you’d need to do that.” . . .

The combination of excess speed and cutting off the system while the plane was still leaning downwards meant up to 50 pounds of force would be needed to move the control column, and moving the manual trim wheels was impossible. . . . The captain asked the co-pilot to try to trim the plane manually using a wheel in the center console to lift the nose and make it easier to recover from the dive. But it was too hard to move the wheel. Both men then tried to pitch the nose up together. The captain, according to the report, said it was not enough.

www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-airplane-reconstruction-insi/how-e
xcess-speed-hasty-commands-and-flawed-software-doomed-an-ethiopian-airlines-737-max-idUSKCN1RH0FJ

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Friday, April 5, 2019 8:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
The airline’s youngest-ever captain, a 29-year-old with an impressive 8,100 hours flying time, and his rookie 25-year-old co-pilot may have made a crucial mistake by leaving the engines at full take-off power, according to data and other pilots.

By the end, the aircraft was traveling at 500 knots (575 mph, 926 kph), far beyond its design limits. A “clacker” warning was telling the pilots their aircraft was going too fast. Data confirms the engines stayed at nearly full power. Other 737 pilots say that made the crew’s job tougher by making the controls much harder to move. . . .

That and some other potential missteps may have left them unable to fight flawed Boeing software that eventually sent the jet into an uncontrollable dive, experts said after studying the data.

“Power being left in take-off power while leveling off at that speed is not a normal procedure,” said one U.S. pilot, who declined to be named because he was not authorized to speak to the media. “I can’t imagine a scenario where you’d need to do that.” . . .

The combination of excess speed and cutting off the system while the plane was still leaning downwards meant up to 50 pounds of force would be needed to move the control column, and moving the manual trim wheels was impossible. . . . The captain asked the co-pilot to try to trim the plane manually using a wheel in the center console to lift the nose and make it easier to recover from the dive. But it was too hard to move the wheel. Both men then tried to pitch the nose up together. The captain, according to the report, said it was not enough.

www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-airplane-reconstruction-insi/how-e
xcess-speed-hasty-commands-and-flawed-software-doomed-an-ethiopian-airlines-737-max-idUSKCN1RH0FJ

I'm not sure that makes sense.
Take-Off Power setting, sure. Leveling off altitude, which is after climbing? The entire flight was what, 2 or 3 minutes? Cruising Altitude is something like 36,000 feet. Adequate altitude would have not meant they had insufficient time to recover from nose dive/loss of Altitude.
They ran out of Altitude too quickly, which does not seem to indicate leveling off altitude in a quirky bird which is known to have Flight Control Failures during the Take-Off Sequence.
This might be a detail to keep an ear out for.

I also don't know the geography of the Airport. Some Airports are surrounded by mountains, so extra clearance altitude is warranted. Not every Airport is like LAX, where there are no mountains in the Pacific Ocean.

Yes, 500 knots is too fast in an uncontrollable nose dive - but that velocity would not have been achieved in a nose-up Attitude. Take-Off Power setting sets off the Stall Prevention software? This sounds like the standard procedure for crashes, always blame the Dead Pilots, they can't talk back.

SIGNYM

Friday, April 5, 2019 8:46 PM

I read an interesting POV on the HARDWARE problems of the Boeing MAX8, which went like this:

All flight-critical components are designed into aircraft in threes, like three computers from three different manufacturers. However, the faulty Angle of Attack (AoA) sensor which activated the MACS software was only designed in as a single unit, with a second AoA sensor installed as an option.

The reason for this was that Boeing wanted to beat Airbus to the market, and so they decided to make the 737 Max 8 a MODIFICATION, rather than a whole new design. That meant they wanted to eliminate the need for costly re-training (including expensive simulagor training) by making the control panel exactly the same as previous versions of the 737 (none of which had MACS).

Well, the previous version of the 737 didn't have a MACS. The AOAs on previous airplanes only provided a stall warning, which pilots were supposed to respond to manually. But because the AoA sensor became part of an automated system, Boeing realized that TWO AoAs ... if providing conflicting information ... would require a new procedure ... with more training... how to disable the MACS... which would have made the Max 8 non-competitive with Airbus.

So, some corporate accountants and heads made a penny-wise decision and decided to kill the mandatory second AoA (despite it being filght-critical).

The reason why Boeing wants to focus on the software is because a sofware problem is easy to fix. But the source of the problem ... a faulty AoA sensor ... is a HARDWARE problem which requires a HARDWARE fix ... meaning, a second mandatory AoA sensor, a new control panel element (reading conflict warning), and more training (what to do in case of a reading conflict/ how to disable the MACS) ... if not a third AoA sensor to "tiebreak" two conflicting sensors. (In reality, according to Boeing engineers and project managers speaking anonymously, the whole plane needs a re-design.)

Let's see if Boeing modifies the hardware, and then requires the appropriate training.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Friday, April 5, 2019 8:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I read an interesting POV on the HARDWARE problems of the Boeing MAX8, which went like this:

All flight-critical components are designed into aircraft in threes, like three computers from three different manufacturers. However, the faulty Angle of Attack (AoA) sensor which activated the MACS software was only designed in as a single unit, with a second AoA sensor installed as an option.

The reason for this was that Boeing wanted to beat Airbus to the market, and so they decided to make the 737 Max 8 a MODIFICATION, rather than a whole new design. That meant they wanted to eliminate the need for costly re-training (including expensive simulagor training) by making the control panel exactly the same as previous versions of the 737 (none of which had MACS).

Well, the previous version of the 737 didn't have a MACS. The AOAs on previous airplanes only provided a stall warning, which pilots were supposed to respond to manually. But because the AoA sensor became part of an automated system, Boeing realized that TWO AoAs ... if providing conflicting information ... would require a new procedure ... with more training... which would have made the Max 8 non-competitive with Airbus.

So, some corporate accountants and heads made a penny-wise decision and decided to kill the second AoA (despite it being filght-critical).

The reason why Boeing wants to focu on the software is because a sofware problem is easy to fix. But the source of the problem ... a faulty AoA sensor ... is a HARDWARE problem which requires a HARDWARE fix. (In reality, the whole plane needs a re-design.)

Let's see if Boeing modifies the hardware, and then requires the appropriate training.

To clarify, you are talking about redundancies and possibly back-ups. Perhaps computer calculations by committee.

Airbus was the king of redundant systems and components. While Boeing, MD, Lockheed might have 1 or 2 backups, Airbus might have 5 in comparison. An inherently more Safety-Minded attitude which scrimping competitors were not savvy to, and this has been the case since the 80s, not just an overnight occurance.

RUE

Saturday, April 6, 2019 4:08 AM

Most recent information is that the 737 MAX has one sensor for the angle of attack - the plane angle as compared to level.

In the Ethiopian flight, that one sensor was giving a faulty reading, indicating the nose was too high and the jet could stall out. That triggered the anti-stall routine, which kept putting the nose down, that the pilots couldn't control (despite apparently following BOING!BOING!'s recommended procedures). And so, everyone died.

One sensor is faulty by design, but even 2 sensors are no guarantee, because both could be iced-up, OR be providing conflicting information.

SECOND

Saturday, April 6, 2019 5:01 PM

On Thursday, Boeing for the first time officially took responsibility for the two crashes of 737 Max jets that got the planes grounded by regulators.

But then Friday morning, the company announced that it had found a second, unrelated software flaw that it also needs to fix.

All of which raises the question of why such flawed systems were allowed to fly in the first place.

Boeing rushed a series of kludges through the certification process — with an underresourced Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) seemingly all too eager to help an American company threatened by a foreign competitor, rather than to ask tough questions about the project.

More at www.vox.com/2019/4/5/18296646/boeing-737-max-mcas-software-update

As late as February 2011, Boeing chair and CEO James McNerney was sticking to the plan to design a totally new aircraft.

“We’re not done evaluating this whole situation yet,” he said on an analyst call, “but our current bias is to move to a newer airplane, an all-new airplane, at the end of the decade, beginning of the next decade. It’s our judgment that our customers will wait for us.”

But in August 2011, Boeing announced that it had lined up orders for 496 re-engined Boeing 737 aircraft from five airlines.

It’s not entirely clear what happened, but, reading between the lines, it seems that in talking to its customers Boeing reached the conclusion that airlines would not wait for them. Some critical mass of carriers (American Airlines seems to have been particularly influential) was credible enough in its threat to switch to Airbus equipment that Boeing decided it needed to offer 737 buyers a Boeing solution sooner rather than later.

Committing to putting a new engine that didn’t fit on the plane was the corporate version of the Fyre Festival’s “let’s just do it and be legends, man” moment, and it unsurprisingly wound up leading to a slew of engineering and regulatory problems.

(According to at least one former Fyre Festival organizer, there were dozens of red flags leading up to the supposedly luxurious event turning into a light version of Lord of the Flies.)

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SECOND

Tuesday, April 9, 2019 8:17 PM

Today's tweet is connected to Boeing 737 Max

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
The World Trade Organization finds that the European Union subsidies to Airbus has adversely impacted the United States, which will now put Tariffs on $11 Billion of EU products! The EU has taken advantage of the U.S. on trade for many years. It will soon stop!
4:34 AM - 9 Apr 2019
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1115578769518018560

Boeing 737 Max is grounded; Airbus is still flying; Trump attacks Airbus indirectly by attacking EU.

The headline is "Dow falls 200 points as Trump tweets threat of $11 billion in ‘tariffs on EU products’" Apr 9, 2019 9:54 a.m. ET
www.marketwatch.com/story/stock-market-futures-edge-lower-as-us-threat
ens-european-tariffs-2019-04-09

Eventually Trump will forget about raising EU tariffs. It's a bluff. Things will return to normal: Boeing still grounded; Airbus still flying; Trump still thrashing.

www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/the-fury-and-failure-of-donald-
trump-w444943

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

CAPTAINCRUNCH

Tuesday, April 9, 2019 9:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Today's tweet is connected to Boeing 737 Max

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
The World Trade Organization finds that the European Union subsidies to Airbus has adversely impacted the United States, which will now put Tariffs on $11 Billion of EU products! The EU has taken advantage of the U.S. on trade for many years. It will soon stop!
4:34 AM - 9 Apr 2019
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1115578769518018560

Boeing 737 Max is grounded; Airbus is still flying; Trump attacks Airbus indirectly by attacking EU.

The headline is "Dow falls 200 points as Trump tweets threat of $11 billion in ‘tariffs on EU products’" Apr 9, 2019 9:54 a.m. ET
www.marketwatch.com/story/stock-market-futures-edge-lower-as-us-threat
ens-european-tariffs-2019-04-09

Eventually Trump will forget about raising EU tariffs. It's a bluff. Things will return to normal: Boeing still grounded; Airbus still flying; Trump still thrashing.

It's pretty obvious he doesn't really care about anything other than indulging his whims. Has anyone seen him perform a single selfless act?

SECOND

Thursday, April 11, 2019 1:08 AM

CEO Dennis Muilenberg appealed directly to president Trump to keep the 737 Max in the air. Trump announced the US was grounding the 737 Max 8 and 9 three days after dozens of countries had banned the aircraft. Trump told reporters at the time that “we didn’t have to make this decision today. We could have delayed it. We maybe didn’t have to make it at all. But I felt it was important both psychologically and in a lot of other ways.” Acting FAA administrator Dan Elwell later claimed the decision was “fact-based” and due to “new satellite data available this morning” tracking flight patterns. Trump’s next pick for the head of the FAA, Steve Dickson, a former Delta executive, is unlikely to change this pattern of industry influence over the regulator. (Before that, Trump had considered nominating his personal pilot, John Dunkin, for the job but elicited opposition from Congress.)

"Boeing’s cold-blooded risk calculation may tarnish trust in “self-driving” cars for years"
https://qz.com/1590040/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SECOND

Thursday, April 11, 2019 8:20 PM

Sensors Linked to Boeing 737 Crashes Vulnerable to Failure

There are at least 140 instances since the early 1990s of sensors on U.S. planes being damaged by jetways and other equipment on the ground or hitting birds in flight.

In at least 25 cases in the U.S., Canada and Europe, the damage triggered cockpit alerts or emergencies.

Before the 737 Max crashes, the most recent accident involving the sensors occurred when an Airbus SE A320 on a 2008 demonstration flight went down off the coast of France killing all seven people aboard. Moisture inside two of the plane’s three angle-of-attack vanes froze, confusing the aircraft’s automation system, according to France’s Office of Investigations and Analysis.

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-11/sensors-linked-to-737-crash
es-vulnerable-to-failure-data-show

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

RUE

Friday, April 12, 2019 1:12 AM

Yep. The 737 Max crashes are ALL TRUMP'S FAULT! ... despite the fact they're faulty by design, and were BOING!BOING! self-certified under Obama's FAA procedures.

http://www.boeing.com/company/about-bca/washington/737-max8-certificat
ion-03-09-17.page
A family first: 737 MAX 8 awarded FAA certification
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/27/dot-watchdog-is-auditing-faas-approval
-of-boeing-737-max-after-2-crashes.html
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-government-audit-faa-boeing-737-max
-certification-process-2019-3

SECOND

Friday, April 12, 2019 3:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Yep. The 737 Max crashes are ALL TRUMP'S FAULT! ... despite the fact they're faulty by design, and were BOING!BOING! self-certified under Obama's FAA procedures.

http://www.boeing.com/company/about-bca/washington/737-max8-certificat
ion-03-09-17.page
A family first: 737 MAX 8 awarded FAA certification
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/27/dot-watchdog-is-auditing-faas-approval
-of-boeing-737-max-after-2-crashes.html
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-government-audit-faa-boeing-737-max
-certification-process-2019-3

Rue, you know that Trump shut down the FAA for 35 days, preventing a solution to the cause of the first 737 Max crash, which could have prevented the second crash. You will find that Trump wanted to keep the 737 Max flying after all other countries had grounded the airplane.
www.newsweek.com/boeing-aviation-ethiopian-airlines-faa-muilenburg-136
1015

Rue, you won't find Obama's signature certifying the 737 Max, but you will find that the GOP cut the FAA's budget so that it had to depend on Boeing to certify the Boeing 737 Max.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

RUE

Friday, April 12, 2019 3:27 AM

Poor powerless Obama - he was just the (meek, silent, helpless) victim of the GOP (well, except for the first 2 years when the Dems controlled Congress) who never stood a chance.

Obama folded like a cheap suitcase because - GUESS WHAT! - he never represented the common man or the rule of law in the first place. But the deep state DID let him kill people via drone! - that was the sucker they gave to the baby to keep it quiet. That was the one thing they let him do.

Social Security was stalled in an opposing Congress for 2 years even though the idea was wildly popular with the people. But it was eventually passed thanks to FDR using the power of the bully pulpit.

THAT'S what happens when a president really wants to do something.

Anything else is just an excuse.

SECOND

Friday, April 12, 2019 5:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

Social Security was stalled in an opposing Congress for 2 years even though the idea was wildly popular with the people. But it was eventually passed thanks to FDR using the power of the bully pulpit.

THAT'S what happens when a president really wants to do something.

Anything else is just an excuse.

Per usual, rue, you are dead wrong. Social Security was NOT stuck in an opposing Congress for two years. It was proposed in January 1935. After a series of congressional hearings, the Social Security Act became law in August 1935, the same year. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Act

Here is the vote on Social Security. Democrats out numbered Republicans by 4 to 1. The GOP could not stop it, even theoretically.
www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/74-1/h39

The Senate was much the same. The Democrats crushed the Republicans:
www.ssa.gov/history/tally.html

Two years later, the GOP almost killed Social Security at the Supreme Court in a vote of 5 to 4.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Act#US_Supreme_Court_cas
es

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

RUE

Friday, April 12, 2019 6:45 AM

That's what happens when your 'history' pre-1935 is one wiki article deep:

https://www.ssa.gov/history/lettertoFDR.html
http://fdranewdealerinhope.weebly.com/social-security.html
https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/eras/great-depression/social-sec
urity-the-roosevelt-administration/
https://www.ssa.gov/history/1930.html
https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/eras/great-depression/the-new-de
al-part-ii/

SECOND

Friday, April 12, 2019 7:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
That's what happens when your 'history' pre-1935 is one wiki article deep:

https://www.ssa.gov/history/lettertoFDR.html
http://fdranewdealerinhope.weebly.com/social-security.html
https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/eras/great-depression/social-sec
urity-the-roosevelt-administration/
https://www.ssa.gov/history/1930.html
https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/eras/great-depression/the-new-de
al-part-ii/

Hello, rue, you stupid fucker. You started your countdown clock when a nobody wrote a letter in 1933 to FDR, one he never saw. The clock actually starts two years later, when Congress starts drafting a bill. That bill didn't start at the White House. Nothing would have happened if the GOP had a majority in Congress, but they were crushed by a majority of Democrats because the Republicans had crashed the economy of America.

I swear to god, rue, you are a deceitful Russian troll who did not even try to read the sources you pointed to. And I noticed you didn't say one goddamn thing about the GOP trying to kill Social Security at the Supreme Court two years after it passed. If there had been one less Democrat on the court, the GOP would have killed it dead as your brain.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Friday, April 12, 2019 9:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
That's what happens when your 'history' pre-1935 is one wiki article deep:

https://www.ssa.gov/history/lettertoFDR.html
http://fdranewdealerinhope.weebly.com/social-security.html
https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/eras/great-depression/social-sec
urity-the-roosevelt-administration/
https://www.ssa.gov/history/1930.html
https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/eras/great-depression/the-new-de
al-part-ii/
Hello, rue, you stupid fucker. You started your countdown clock when a nobody wrote a letter in 1933 to FDR, one he never saw. The clock actually starts two years later, when Congress starts drafting a bill. That bill didn't start at the White House. Nothing would have happened if the GOP had a majority in Congress, but they were crushed by a majority of Democrats because the Republicans had crashed the economy of America.

I swear to god, rue, you are a deceitful Russian troll who did not even try to read the sources you pointed to. And I noticed you didn't say one goddamn thing about the GOP trying to kill Social Security at the Supreme Court two years after it passed. If there had been one less Democrat on the court, the GOP would have killed it dead as your brain.

The first linky that you quoted includes published claim that Governor FDR of New York had passed Social Security, known as Old Age Pensions, in that State.
That would predate 1933.
Are you saying FDR was not aware that he passed this Law?
Did somebody keep it a secret from him that he passed this Law?
That he is a nobody who passed this Law?
That nobody in America, nobody in his Administration, knew that he passed this Law?

RUE

Friday, April 12, 2019 11:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
That's what happens when your 'history' pre-1935 is one wiki article deep:

https://www.ssa.gov/history/lettertoFDR.html
http://fdranewdealerinhope.weebly.com/social-security.html
https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/eras/great-depression/social-sec
urity-the-roosevelt-administration/
https://www.ssa.gov/history/1930.html
https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/eras/great-depression/the-new-de
al-part-ii/

Quote:
Originally posted by SECOND:
Hello, rue, you stupid fucker. You started your countdown clock when a nobody wrote a letter in 1933 to FDR, one he never saw. The clock actually starts two years later, when Congress starts drafting a bill. That bill didn't start at the White House. Nothing would have happened if the GOP had a majority in Congress, but they were crushed by a majority of Democrats because the Republicans had crashed the economy of America.

I swear to god, rue, you are a deceitful Russian troll who did not even try to read the sources you pointed to. And I noticed you didn't say one goddamn thing about the GOP trying to kill Social Security at the Supreme Court two years after it passed. If there had been one less Democrat on the court, the GOP would have killed it dead as your brain.

You got the history entirely wrong, SECOND. The history starts with the states trying to give aid to the poor - many of whom were elderly - but the states were tapped out. The first quarter of 1933 was the 72nd congress, which was Hoover's congress, with a republican senate and a very slim democratic majority in the house. A bill was introduced into Congress in 1933 to aid the states to provide relief to the poor, but it never went anywhere. However, SS's predecessor came with FERA. But "FDR's New Deal faced considerable opposition from both sides of the aisle. Democratic reformists felt the New Deal did not go far enough and Republicans felt that FDR was overstepping his authority."

OTOH there was CONSIDERABLE POPULAR push for some type of federal aid (as mentioned in the link with the letter. You DID read everything in each link - right?).

By 1934 FDR used his executive powers to create a commission to frame a system that would be the basis of the SS bill. . "... on June 8, 1934, President Franklin D. Roosevelt described how reconstruction and recovery must go together. He expressed interest in reconstructive legislation that would provide “security against the hazards and vicissitudes of life” ... through social insurance. Roosevelt ... concluded by declaring that he would take steps to have the necessary studies conducted in time for legislation to be considered in the 74th Congress, which began in 1935. As Roosevelt’s speech on June 8, 1934, foreshadowed, he created the Committee on Economic Security by Executive Order Number 6757 on June 29, 1934."

An interesting thing happened between the 73rd and the 74th congress, during FDR's mid-term elections. Because "... voters strongly backed Roosevelt's New Deal and his allies in the Senate. The Democrats picked up a net of nine seats, giving them a supermajority ..." and "The Republicans were reduced below one-fourth of the chamber for the first time since the creation of the party."

BECAUSE of FDR's campaign "The 1934 elections (were) a referendum on New Deal policies. While conservatives and people among the middle class who did not bear the brunt of the depression saw New Deal programs as radical, ordinary people overwhelmingly voted in this election cycle to continue implementation of Roosevelt's agenda. It was the first time in modern history that the president's party had gained House seats in a midterm year, something that did not happen again until 1998."

In other words, due to FDR's actions, political opposition to SS disappeared by the time it came up for a vote in 1935.

But all this was in the links I provided, easily found. Though sadly, I can't either rea

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Friday, April 12, 2019 12:04 PM

I just realized something.

You can lead a Libtard to facts, but it still cannot think.

SECOND

Friday, April 12, 2019 6:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

In other words, due to FDR's actions, political opposition to SS disappeared by the time it came up for a vote in 1935.

But all this was in the links I provided, easily found. Though sadly, I can't either read information for you, or think for you. But you know what they say - you can lead a horse's ass to facts, but you can't make it think.

DONE NOW

rue, you are going crazy with the links. I loved
https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/eras/great-depression/the-new-de
al-part-ii/
for it's absolute nuttiness by Republicans:

"Roosevelt has a poor brand of Russian communism" The Republicans also said German Jews got Hitler because Jews killed Christ, but I digress.

rue, you are using Social Security to make a point about the Federal Aviation Administration FAA. Obama did not have a super majority in Congress. FDR did. FDR did not create his super majority. Obama did not create his subpar majority, either. The Republicans' incompetence in 1932 and 2008 did all the work for the Democrats, who only had to stand there in front of the voters and reassure them that Democrats aren't as incompetent at governing as Republicans.

But Republicans have learned a trick since then: make sure the Democrats cannot look good by sabotaging all Democrats all the time in Congress or the White House. That way the voters never have a choice between competent and incompetent governing. It is always incompetent. If both sides look incompetent, then the GOP always has a 50/50 chance of winning every election. When they win, they give themselves another tax cut. Who would not like a casino slot machine that pays the jackpot about 50% of the time? The GOP loves it. Personally, I hate slot machines and people who turn elections and governing into a game.

Well, there remains a noticeable competency difference, despite the GOP sabotaging everything and blaming the Democrats. Trump shut down the FAA to achieve nothing on his Mexico Wall. A Democrat would not have sabotaged the FAA. Trump shut it down between the first crash of a Boeing 737 Max and the second crash. The GOP want you to believe it did not make any difference. A Republican would say it is not Trump's fault. He'd say that the second crash would happen no matter if the FAA was open or closed and therefore Trump is not at fault.

But Trump is at fault. His party cut the budget for the FAA while the 737 Max was in development. He shutdown the FAA. The plane crashed.

It is the same fault as Trump insisting the 737 Max continue to fly after the entire world grounded the plane. A day later, Trump realized that a third crash would be perfect proof that the second crash was also Trump's fault. Only then did Trump ground the 737 Max. Trump does not want proof that Republicans are more incompetent. But the way he goes about his work everyday, it is hard to hide how incompetent he is from people who know how large organizations are run. Lucky for Trump, most voters do not know. Average voters cannot tell which political party is more incompetent, unlike in the 1934 election, where noticeable improvement (all credit going to the Democrats) happened over the previous two years compared to the Herbert Hoover years.

"The Bitter Origins of the Fight Over Big Government"
What the battle between Herbert Hoover and FDR can teach us.
www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/03/fdr-herbert-hoover-big-go
vernment/580456/

A compact example of Hoover sabotaging the government, while claiming he was solving problems: "At the start of Hoover’s presidency, 24,000 banks had been open for business throughout the country. By 1933, 10,000 of these had shut their doors. One state after another—Nevada, Iowa, California—was suspending normal bank operations in order to keep frightened depositors from withdrawing their cash. Publicly, Hoover insisted that the solution to the panic was a recommitment to the gold standard by nations that had recently abandoned it, such as Grea

SECOND

Saturday, April 13, 2019 8:03 PM

American and United have removed the 737 MAX from their schedules through early June, while Southwest on Thursday extended the removal of its 34 MAX jets through Aug. 5, leading to around 160 daily flight cancellations during the revised summer schedule.

More than 300 Boeing 737 MAXs have been grounded worldwide after a total of 346 people died in two crashes.

www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-airplane-faa/faa-meets-with-u-s-ai
rlines-pilot-unions-on-boeing-737-max-idUSKCN1RO2H9

It's perfectly fair that 346 of the Boeing 737 MAXs are scrapped as Boeing's punishment for 346 dead. If the $34.6 billion price to buy back the planes and scrap them causes Boeing to go bankrupt, too bad. Boeing's net worth as of April 12, 2019 is $208.95 billion. I think it can afford a $34.6 billion price to scrape the planes.
www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/BA/boeing/net-worth

Unit cost
MAX 7: US$99.7 million
MAX 8: US$121.6M
MAX 200: US$124.8M
MAX 9: US$128.9M
MAX 10: US$134.9M

www.boeing.com/company/about-bca/#/prices

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Saturday, April 13, 2019 9:53 PM

Many folk have become far too complacent about Aircraft Safety, Airline Safety.

Hopefully this has helped wake the masses.

RUE

Sunday, April 14, 2019 12:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SECOND:
Obama did not have a super majority in Congress.

NEITHER DID FDR WHEN HE WAS FIRST ELECTED.

Quote:
FDR did.

BUT NOT WHEN HE WAS FIRST ELECTED. FDR was in the exact same position regarding Congress during his first 2 years as president as Obama was during his first 2 years as president.

Quote:
FDR did not create his super majority.

AFTER 2 YEARS IN THE PRESIDENCY, FDR WAS SO POPULAR REPUBLICANS WERE SWEPT FROM CONGRESS, and FDR achieved a supermajority.

Quote:
Obama did not create his subpar majority, either.

He sure did - BY FAILING TO VIGOROUSLY PURSUE HIS CAMPAIGN PROMISES during his first 2 years, UNLIKE FDR.

And that's as far as I got. I couldn't take the lies anymore.

Anyone who wants to see the facts has merely to go to wiki and look up the 72nd, 73rd, and 74th congresses, and FDR's term of office. I'm not going to argue what is CLEARLY factual with a pathological liar.

RUE

Sunday, April 14, 2019 2:25 AM

To get back to Obama's abysmal failure to act as a populist president after being elected as a populist president (data from various wiki pages and ballotpedia) ... Obama was routed in the midterms. It can't be overstated what a disaster for democrats the 2010 mid-terms were. This is in contrast to FDR whose strongly populist actions caused him to rout republicans during his midterms. Attempts to paint Obama as a hapless victim of outside forces instead of as having justly earned the result of his own failures are shown false by the data.:

Here were the standings before and after the 2008 elections, where the Democrats gained large numbers in Congress as a result of Obama's campaign:

Senate
Seats contested 35
D Seats before 49
D Seats after 57
D Seat change +8

House
Seats contested (all) 435
D Seats before 236
D Seats won 257
D Seat change +21

Nominee Barack Obama
Electoral vote 365(68%)
States carried 28 + DC + NE
Popular vote 69,498,516
Percentage 52.9%

But the 2010 midterms were a reversal in the Senate resulting in a 1seat majority:

Senate
D Seats before 57
D Seats after 51
D Seat change -6

And a rout everywhere else:

House
D Seats before 256
D Seats after 193
D Seat change -63

State legislatures
seats up for reelection 6,125 of 7,384
R +>660
D state senates before election 23 of 41
D state senates after election 15 of 41
D state houses before election 29 of 45
D state houses after election 16 of 45

Gubernatorial elections
positions up for election 37
D governorships before election 19
D governorships after election 9

This can't be attributed to 'racism'. People who voted overwhelmingly for Obama and democrats in 2008 didn't suddenly become racist by 2010.

And the 2012 general election showed a waning of support for Obama

Electoral vote 332(-33)
States carried 26 + DC(-3)
Popular vote 65,915,795(-3,582,721)
Percentage 51.1%(-1.8%)

And only minor D recoveries in Congress Senate +2, House +6; with a gain of 1 state Senate, and 4 state Houses.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Sunday, April 14, 2019 3:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
To get back to Obama's abysmal failure to act as a populist president after being elected as a populist president (data from various wiki pages and ballotpedia) ... Obama was routed in the midterms. It can't be overstated what a disaster for democrats the 2010 mid-terms were. This is in contrast to FDR whose strongly populist actions caused him to rout republicans during his midterms. Attempts to paint Obama as a hapless victim of outside forces instead of as having justly earned the result of his own failures are shown false by the data.:

Here were the standings before and after the 2008 elections, where the Democrats gained large numbers in Congress as a result of Obama's campaign:

Senate
Seats contested 35
D Seats before 49
D Seats after 57
D Seat change +8

House
Seats contested (all) 435
D Seats before 236
D Seats won 257
D Seat change +21

Nominee Barack Obama
Electoral vote 365(68%)
States carried 28 + DC + NE
Popular vote 69,498,516
Percentage 52.9%

But the 2010 midterms were a reversal in the Senate resulting in a 1seat majority:

Senate
D Seats before 57
D Seats after 51
D Seat change -6

And a rout everywhere else:

House
D Seats before 256
D Seats after 193
D Seat change -63

State legislatures
seats up for reelection 6,125 of 7,384
R +>660
D state senates before election 23 of 41
D state senates after election 15 of 41
D state houses before election 29 of 45
D state houses after election 16 of 45

Gubernatorial elections
positions up for election 37
D governorships before election 19
D governorships after election 9

This can't be attributed to 'racism'. People who voted overwhelmingly for Obama and democrats in 2008 didn't suddenly become racist by 2010.

And the 2012 general election showed a waning of support for Obama

Electoral vote 332(-33)
States carried 26 + DC(-3)
Popular vote 65,915,795(-3,582,721)
Percentage 51.1%(-1.8%)

And only minor D recoveries in Congress Senate +2, House +6; with a gain of 1 state Senate, and 4 state Houses.

Are you saying Obama won 28 States plus Nebraska in 2008?

SIGNYM

Sunday, April 14, 2019 5:28 AM

Just to toss in a different twist on the topic ... "Self regulation" is exactly how the FDA operates. The drug companies do theiir own testing and submit their own data. (so what if they have to perform ten tests to get one that shows what that want?) There is a revolving door between the FDA and big pharma. Much university research is funded by, and therefore the data owned by, big pharma (and any uncomfortable data can be stuffed in a drawer)

I could point to any regulatory agency and you'll see much the same story. This has been going on for decades, not just under Trump for

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

SECOND

Sunday, April 14, 2019 5:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Just to toss in a different twist on the topic ... "Self regulation" is exactly how the FDA operates. The drug companies do theiir own testing and submit their own data. (so what if they have to perform ten tests to get one that shows what that want?) There is a revolving door between the FDA and big pharma. Much university research is funded by, and therefore the data owned by, big pharma (and any uncomfortable data can be stuffed in a drawer)

I could point to any regulatory agency and you'll see much the same story. This has been going on for decades, not just under Trump for

Drugs or medicines may be withdrawn from commercial markets because of risks to patients. The Boeing 737 MAX could be withdrawn permanently, not temporarily grounded. That's one way to get Boeing to make a totally new design to replace it, one with fewer side-effects such as sudden death.

List of withdrawn drugs (without worry about economic damage to the manufacturer or the disappointment of satisfied consumers)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs

Checkout the Aircraft Museums with aircraft designs too old and dangerous to fly. That's where the 737 MAX should be, along side of the Space Shuttle, which also crashed two times, killing everyone onboard.
www.cnn.com/travel/article/best-aviation-museums/index.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SECOND

Sunday, April 14, 2019 9:56 PM

American Airlines is extending Boeing Co 737 MAX cancellations through Aug. 19.

Once the aircraft is recertified, which the executives said they expect will happen “soon,” American plans to initially bring its MAX aircraft back on line as spares to supplement its operation as needed.

www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-airplane-american-air/american-air
lines-extends-boeing-737-max-cancellations-through-august-19-idUSKCN1RQ0FL

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Sunday, April 14, 2019 11:49 PM

I'm wondering about something I haven't seen mentioned.

After the 2nd Flight Failure, were there any America-based Airlines which self-grounded their own 737 MAX birds?
Also, are these 300 grounded birds just sitting at random Airports, wherever they were when the grounding was announced?

RUE

Monday, April 15, 2019 1:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
I'm wondering about something I haven't seen mentioned.

After the 2nd Flight Failure, were there any America-based Airlines which self-grounded their own 737 MAX birds?
Also, are these 300 grounded birds just sitting at random Airports, wherever they were when the grounding was announced?

Good question!

I'm too busy to look up the answer myself but ... (maybe put this in the predictions thread) my guess would be no. Self-grounding would result in an economic loss. No company is going to voluntarily take a loss unless competitors are doing the same thing. (Gotta' keep the shareholders happy with them quarterly reports!) So businesses - especially publicly-traded ones - will wait until the government forces them do something they should do.

This I think is generally true for other expenses as well - pollution mitigation, worker safety, and product safety come to mind.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, April 15, 2019 1:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
I'm wondering about something I haven't seen mentioned.

After the 2nd Flight Failure, were there any America-based Airlines which self-grounded their own 737 MAX birds?
Also, are these 300 grounded birds just sitting at random Airports, wherever they were when the grounding was announced?

Good question!

I'm too busy to look up the answer myself but ... (maybe put this in the predictions thread) my guess would be no. Self-grounding would result in an economic loss. No company is going to voluntarily take a loss unless competitors are doing the same thing. (Gotta' keep the shareholders happy with them quarterly reports!) So businesses - especially publicly-traded ones - will wait until the government forces them do something they should do.

This I think is generally true for other expenses as well - pollution mitigation, worker safety, and product safety come to mind.

Loss of All Souls On Board is a significant PR blemish.

Risking that is what I would consider different than your other 3. Having an economic impact is true, but garnering a reputation as the leader in passenger Safety could also have economic impact.
Besides the Airline decision, I wonder how many 737 Pilots refused to fly them. Many times, a Pilot will declare a bird Not Airworthy during Preflight Inspection. Which then means the Airline shuffles in another Pilot who is less fussy, or they make the bird more Airworthy (the more expensive option).

RUE

Monday, April 15, 2019 3:23 AM

Quote:
https://onemileatatime.com/airlines-ground-737-max/
03/11/2019
Less than 24 hours after the Ethiopian Airlines incident, China banned domestic airlines from operating the 737 MAX, meaning that nearly 100 737 MAX aircraft are grounded in China.
To my knowledge, Cayman Airways has become the first airline to voluntarily ground the 737 MAX. The airline has two of these planes in their fleet.
Indonesia has become the second country after China to temporarily ground the 737 MAX (Garuda Indonesia and Lion Air).
FlyDubai has said that they “remain confident in the airworthiness of [their] fleet”
American, has said that they “have full confidence in the aircraft and [their] crew members, who are the best and most experienced in the industry”

Quote:
https://www.rt.com/business/453628-boeing-countries-ground-reject/
03/12/2019
countries / authorities grounding the 737 MAX
European Union restricted the 737 MAX from its airspace
UK, France, Germany, Austria, Ireland, the Netherlands, Norway and Belgium
Ethiopian Airlines (government owned)
China's Civil Aviation Administration
Indonesia
Oman closed its airports
Indian Directorate General of Civil Aviation grounded and closed airspace
Mongolia's Civil Aviation Authority
Royal Air Maroc (nationally owned)
The Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore ban flights into and out of Singapore
Vietnam / Civil Aviation Authority of Vietnam (CAAV) closed airspace
Australia's Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) ban flights into and out of Australia
The United Arab Emirates General Civil Aviation Authority
Aerolíneas Argentinas (government owned)
Russian Airlines

airlines voluntarily grounding 737 MAX
Cayman Airways
South Africa's Comair Airways
Eastar Jet Korea
Aeromexico

Quote:
03/12/2019
https://www.msn.com/en-ae/news/uae/flydubai-grounds-boeing-737-max-fle
et/ar-BBUGEi0
Dubai General Aviation authority grounds FlyDubai 737s

At least 3 US airlines and 2 Canadian ones did NOT ground the 737 MAX voluntarily.

Quote:
https://onemileatatime.com/canada-grounds-737-max/

Well, Canada has now banned the Boeing 737 MAX from their airspace. This means that Air Canada and WestJet are being forced to ground their planes — Sunwing already voluntarily did so earlier today.

Every single major 737 MAX operator is now grounded — either voluntarily or due to decisions by the government — except those in the US.

That means at this point American, Southwest, and United 737 MAX aircraft are the only ones continuing to fly. It’s the US against the world, it seems…

It looks like 5 public companies, Cayman Airways, Sunwing of Canada, South Africa's Comair Airways, Eastar Jet Korea, and Aeromexico, voluntarily grounded the plane. All others grounded were due to government / agency action.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, April 15, 2019 6:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Quote:
https://onemileatatime.com/airlines-ground-737-max/
03/11/2019
Less than 24 hours after the Ethiopian Airlines incident, China banned domestic airlines from operating the 737 MAX, meaning that nearly 100 737 MAX aircraft are grounded in China.
To my knowledge, Cayman Airways has become the first airline to voluntarily ground the 737 MAX. The airline has two of these planes in their fleet.
Indonesia has become the second country after China to temporarily ground the 737 MAX (Garuda Indonesia and Lion Air).
FlyDubai has said that they “remain confident in the airworthiness of [their] fleet”
American, has said that they “have full confidence in the aircraft and [their] crew members, who are the best and most experienced in the industry”
Quote:
https://www.rt.com/business/453628-boeing-countries-ground-reject/
03/12/2019
countries / authorities grounding the 737 MAX
European Union restricted the 737 MAX from its airspace
UK, France, Germany, Austria, Ireland, the Netherlands, Norway and Belgium
Ethiopian Airlines (government owned)
China's Civil Aviation Administration
Indonesia
Oman closed its airports
Indian Directorate General of Civil Aviation grounded and closed airspace
Mongolia's Civil Aviation Authority
Royal Air Maroc (nationally owned)
The Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore ban flights into and out of Singapore
Vietnam / Civil Aviation Authority of Vietnam (CAAV) closed airspace
Australia's Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) ban flights into and out of Australia
The United Arab Emirates General Civil Aviation Authority
Aerolíneas Argentinas (government owned)
Russian Airlines

airlines voluntarily grounding 737 MAX
Cayman Airways
South Africa's Comair Airways
Eastar Jet Korea
Aeromexico
Quote:
03/12/2019
https://www.msn.com/en-ae/news/uae/flydubai-grounds-boeing-737-max-fle
et/ar-BBUGEi0
Dubai General Aviation authority grounds FlyDubai 737s
At least 3 US airlines and 2 Canadian ones did NOT ground the 737 MAX voluntarily.
Quote:
https://onemileatatime.com/canada-grounds-737-max/

Well, Canada has now banned the Boeing 737 MAX from their airspace. This means that Air Canada and WestJet are being forced to ground their planes — Sunwing already voluntarily did so earlier today.

Every single major 737 MAX operator is now grounded — either voluntarily or due to decisions by the government — except those in the US.

That means at this point American, Southwest, and United 737 MAX aircraft are the only ones continuing to fly. It’s the US against the world, it seems…
It looks like 5 public companies, Cayman Airways, Sunwing of Canada, South Africa's Comair Airways, Eastar Jet Korea, and Aeromexico, voluntarily grounded the plane. All others grounded were due to government / agency action.

Very interesting. Sunwing and Aeromexico. Not sure of the territory/range of Cayman.

Alaska apparently did not possess any 737 MAX, scheduled to take delivery this summer. They seem poised to take advantage of Boeing's need to fill orders for more 737 MAXs.

And Delta did not ground any, because they did not operate a single one. Wow. Delta has long been the Safest Airline based in America, and this could bolster that rep.

SECOND

Monday, April 15, 2019 10:08 PM

“What do I know about branding, maybe nothing (but I did become President!), but if I were Boeing, I would FIX the Boeing 737 MAX, add some additional great features, & REBRAND the plane with a new name. No product has suffered like this one. But again, what the hell do I know?”

Indeed, what the hell?

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1117736685721223168

SECOND

Tuesday, April 16, 2019 5:40 PM

The real reason Boeing's new plane crashed twice

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

6IXSTRINGJACK

Tuesday, April 16, 2019 8:13 PM

lol Vox.

Does Buzzfeed News concur?

Do Right, Be Right. :)

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Tuesday, April 16, 2019 10:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
The real reason Boeing's new plane crashed twice

Did it involve Flying Monkeys?

SECOND

Monday, May 6, 2019 8:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Did it involve Flying Monkeys?

Boeing knew that there was a problem with one of the safety features on its 737 Max planes back in 2017 – well before the Lion Air crash in October 2018 and the Ethiopian Airlines crash in March 2019. But it did not disclose the issue to airlines or safety regulators until after the Lion Air plane crashed.

Boeing maintains that the 737 Max was safe to fly even without the alert, which it says provides only "supplemental information." Remember the two crashes? It was NOT safe. The new disclosure on Sunday raises questions about how forthright the company has been about issues with the planes.

"We thought the disagree light worked," Jon Weaks, the president of the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association, told the Times.

More at www.npr.org/2019/05/06/720553748/boeing-knew-about-737-max-sensor-prob
lem-before-plane-crash-in-indonesia

“The issue with MCAS is there is no alert. There is nothing in the flight deck that tells you that MCAS is malfunctioning,” Peter Lemme, a former Boeing engineer, told Quartz. “See, if there’d been an MCAS light they would have have had to train for it. The minute you put an indication in there, you have to tell the pilot what to do if it goes off.”

In the absence of such an “MCAS light,” the disagree alert would have been the closest thing to a warning the system was about to misfire — that is, if pilots had been told about MCAS in the first place.

More at https://qz.com/1612370/

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Tuesday, May 7, 2019 3:25 AM

It's been 2 months now, right?
I haven't heard of any of these being Ungrounded.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Wednesday, May 8, 2019 5:11 AM

I just read in a story from a month ago that the Lion Air bird had the Angle-of-Attack sensor replaced just days before the crash. I don't recall hearing of that until now.

This is interesting because it brings up the question of whther the sensor really was defective, or if the computer/indicator was the faulty component.

Most of these sensors are tested after replacement. There is a specific code assigned to parts which are found to have no errors during testing, they are Ready For Issue.

If Ethiopia Air has similar practices, the Investigation team should have been able to intercept this part and include it in their analysis. The old part was declared defective (by the Maintenance people, presumably). It was blamed for giving bad readings during flight.

The new sensor was found to have readings which were not quite accurate, and also 20 Degrees different than the old sensor.

If the error was in the connections, the connectors, the wiring between sensor, indicator, processing computer, Flight Control Computer, MCAS Computer, then it is not necessarly in the components themselves, but the way the signal is processed.

Regardless, none of the above detracts from the Fault all being laid at the feet of Boeing.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Sunday, May 19, 2019 2:52 AM

Saw a story that Boeing had completed their software upgrade a few days ago.

Wonder how many people will take their word for it.

And how can their CEO remain in that position, after this disaster?

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