Season 4 opinions?

POSTED BY: RhymePhile
UPDATED: Saturday, June 25, 2005 17:25
VIEWED: 21885
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RHYMEPHILE

Wednesday, August 25, 2004 1:47 PM (P)

PLEASE NOTE: I am discussing events of Season 4 in this post. If you are just watching on TNT, please DO NOT READ this post!! I DID NOT include spoiler protection.

Angel Season 4 DVDs come out on Sept. 7, and I have to write a review of the season for my job at a dot-com. I thought I would ask for some opinions on what everyone thought about Season 4, because I know many people have varying thoughts about the season overall.

Personally, I think this season was a strong one, with a continuing arc that started, really, with Cordy's ascension in Season 3.

I like how the entire season revolves around Cordy and the Beast (although we don't discover Cordy's duplicity until later).

Of course, the highlights of the entire season (for me) is the redemption of Wesley and the return of Angelus. I'm not sure if Angel's forgiving Wesley was all that convincing, though. Wes did save Angel's life when he didn't have to, but Angel was pretty riled for a while there. I wonder if he forgave him too easily.

Sometimes David Boreanaz can go over the top with Angelus, and there are moments of it during this season, but I really enjoy watching him portray Angelus. He does a great job of keeping Angel/Angelus completely separate, and gives Angelus a kind of wide-eyed wonder at being evil I find hilarious.

I'm sure I'm not alone in loving the episode "Awakening" when a shaman supposedly can extract Angel's soul and place it in a bottle; and "Spin the Bottle" when the gang reverts to teenagers; and "Apocalypse Nowish" with the shotgun-totin' Wesley (sorry, I love Wes). Ooh, and the return of Faith. Faith! This season (the good stuff) rocked.

Okay, now what I didn't like: when the gang heads to Las Vegas to rescue Lorne from a casino. Gah, terrible. But the only really weak episode of the bunch until we get to...

Jasmine. When I first saw this, I was like, whaaaa? What the? It did surprise me that Connor and Angel bowed down when she was "born" and they didn't go after her. It was almost like a second season began right there. Weirdness. Of course, it is Gina Torres, but I didn't quite "get" where they were going with this. Angel shouldn't have killed her because she brought peace? Angel should have killed her because she was a demon? I never figured it out.

And that whole arc sets up Connor's fall and the subsequent attaining of Wolfram & Hart, which in my opinion was a mistake, because now Angel and Co. had no evil "big brother" plotting over them. That leads into a fairly weak (IMO) Season 5 with stories that went nowhere and several really poor episodes because now Angel is in charge of the baddies.

Overall, however, this season was a huge continuing arc that worked really well. It got a little weird with the Jasmine stuff. I can overlook those bits for the great writing of this season.

What does everyone think?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All of me is beautiful and valuable, even the ugly, stupid, and disgusting parts.

GROUNDED

Wednesday, August 25, 2004 2:43 PM (P)

**BILE ALERT**
Stop reading now if you love Angel S4.

For me, S4 is the worst Angel season by a huge margin. Here's why...

- Connor was ruined in the first episode. Watch A New World from S3 and then have a think about what Connor would be like after Quortoth. He was raised by Holtz, a puritanical religious type (who also has an English accent...) and presumably Holtz was the only human Connor knew until he escaped Quortoth. Would Connor (and his American accent) really degenerate into a horny teenager in a couple of months? I think not.

- Cordelia. The first three eps have those irritating 'floaty' scenes that just seemed totally ridiculous. And when she finally comes back she's still the strange Cordelia of latter S3 :( It's also hard not to be distracted by the increasing obviousness of the pregnancy. This season was a pretty poor end for a well-developed, enduring character.

- Wesley/Lilah. This as an idea doesn't bother me but we get tons of pointless dirty talk scenes that really add nothing to either the show or the character dynamic.

- Guns. Apparently now the solution to all Wesley's frustrations is to shoot things. Repeatedly. A horrible reminder of the ghastly That Old Gang Of Mine from S3.

- Angelus as a character is ruined. Angel and Angelus should NOT be kept separate. They are intricately entwined personalities - the whole point of Angel's character is how close these two personas are to one another. That's what makes him dangerous for crying out loud! I also thought it was pretty weak how few people Angelus actually killed (if any - I have only watched these episodes once).

- Gwen. Really, there was no point.

- The Beast. Worst. Villain. Ever. ME seem to have a fascination with invincible, indestructible enemies, in other words, the worst kind.

- Faith. Another character butchered (not so much here as in Buffy afterwards though).

- Lorne. Lorne is an immense character but he was criminally underused for most of this year, as he was in S3 too.

Personally I thought the Jasmine conclusion actually saved some face (no pun intended ;) ). From Shiny Happy People onwards things got a lot better, more thoughtful and considered. There was still plenty of duff moments (Connor and his bomb - dear oh dear) but on the whole not too bad. Season 5 was a huge recovery IMO. The group dynamic wasn't quite there for a while but there were tons of great standout episodes as well as the far more insidious arc cooking in the background. I'll take subtlety over invincible villains and messed up characters any day ;)

RHYMEPHILE

Wednesday, August 25, 2004 5:03 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
- Cordelia. The first three eps have those irritating 'floaty' scenes that just seemed totally ridiculous. And when she finally comes back she's still the strange Cordelia of latter S3 :( It's also hard not to be distracted by the increasing obviousness of the pregnancy. This season was a pretty poor end for a well-developed, enduring character.

The pregnancy is distracting, I agree. Also, remember Cordy has been essentially taken over by Jasmine the moment she ascended with Skip's (who we find out later is evil) help. He's been planning this all along, so the "real" Cordy we loved has been gone since Season 3.

Quote:
- Wesley/Lilah. This as an idea doesn't bother me but we get tons of pointless dirty talk scenes that really add nothing to either the show or the character dynamic.

This I definitely agree with. And I could never quite get behind (so to speak) the whole Wes/Lilah thing anyway. It's there to mark his descent into darkness. Less sex would have been appreciated.

Quote:
- Guns. Apparently now the solution to all Wesley's frustrations is to shoot things. Repeatedly. A horrible reminder of the ghastly That Old Gang Of Mine from S3.

I think it's a mark of how far he's fallen. He recalls this with the quote to something to the effect of "Have your throat slit and left for dead, and have your friends abandon you will do that to you" when he was talking to Justine in the season opener, as I recall. And yes, in his mind, shooting things is a solution, because the man that intelligently researched things and thought them out is gone.

Quote:
- Angelus as a character is ruined. Angel and Angelus should NOT be kept separate. They are intricately entwined personalities - the whole point of Angel's character is how close these two personas are to one another. That's what makes him dangerous for crying out loud! I also thought it was pretty weak how few people Angelus actually killed (if any - I have only watched these episodes once).

What I meant here is how DB portrays each character. When he's Angel, you know it, and when he's Angelus, you definitely know it. I enjoy watching him have fun with Angelus. And I agree that Angelus didn't kill enough people. He talks too much.

Quote:
- Gwen. Really, there was no point.

I look forward to some commentary on the DVDs on this. The character was intriguing and had really cool powers, and they dropped her without explanation.

Quote:
- The Beast. Worst. Villain. Ever. ME seem to have a fascination with invincible, indestructible enemies, in other words, the worst kind.

Of course, nothing is invincible, but it's stretched out across the season as if it were. The Beast was just a pawn in EvilCordy/Skip/Jasmine's plan. And the creature FX/makeup was kick-ass.

Quote:
- Faith. Another character butchered (not so much here as in Buffy afterwards though).

I thought Angel maintained the strained relationship Faith had with Wes and Angel this season, and how she was able to step in despite misgivings and help out. How was she butchered in Buffy?

Quote:
- Lorne. Lorne is an immense character but he was criminally underused for most of this year, as he was in S3 too.

He's actually in more episodes this season than he is in Season 5...and we won't even mention what they did to his character in the season finale of Season 5. That was sad.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All of me is beautiful and valuable, even the ugly, stupid, and disgusting parts.

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

Wednesday, August 25, 2004 5:58 PM (P)

I really didn't enjoy the end of season 4 until I rewatched the entire series again, and I have a different interpretation of how things happened to the way it's portrayed on screen. Maybe it's not meant to be read the way I read it, but I think it makes a lot more sense.

W&H are supremely powerful. They have outlets all over the world, a constant presence everywhere in which they are planning everything that happens. They (and not Jasmine, though she is involved) have been changing things slightly throughout history to get everyone into the positions they're in during season 5.

The end of season 1, and the summoning of Voca. A demon who wears a mask to cover his decaying maggot filled face (sound familiar), who has been brought forth by W&H to bring about the end of days, something which involves the shanshu prophecy and Darla.

Season 2 deals with Angel turning bad, and finally sleeping with Darla. Many think W&H planned this to make him lose his soul, personally I think they're smarter than that.

Season 3 deals with the pregnancy, birth of Conner, Darla's death and Conners fast aging. Then Cordy's "ascension" which even Skip says she never deserved. Would the PTB even let her in if she didn't deserve it? Wouldn't they give her something to do once she was there?

Season 4 has Conner and Cordy having sex to bring about Jasmine. We assume W&H are out of the picture because their building is destroyed, however as we see later the staff are still around (people comment on previous years' halloween parties). It's just a show for Angel's benefit, so he doesn't realise the truth. W&H are still watching, just because a building is destroyed doesn't make them less powerful. Then Jasmine turns up, a being like Voca, another tool of the senior partners. They know Angel will topple her, and in doing so they can trick him into taking over W&H, leading nicely into what is (IMO) the best season of Angel they did.

check out my WIP firefly roleplay system at www.estador.co.uk/firefly

CAPTAINCDC

Wednesday, August 25, 2004 6:13 PM (P)

[Sorry for the length] I loved season 4. I thought seasons 3 & 4 were the best of the series. Pretty much everything that happened in season 3 and a lot from the first two seasons had a strong effect on the 4th season. Seasons 3&4 were basically one big flowing story arc when you look at the series as a whole. The first time I watched season 4 I did not quite know what to make of Jasmine. However, after watching all of the eps again and examining Jasmine a little closer it all came together for me and it became possibly my favorite of the series.
[Warning: Rant following] IMO Jasmine as a story arc is a lot easier to accept when you look at her as a metaphor for the religious right movement. When I look at Jasmine and her followers in that context it makes total sense to me. Being a moderate I have a real problem with the religious right constantly talking about how their rights to freedom of religion are being taken away when to me it is quite the opposite. Instead I think our rights to adopt a religion or not and live our lives without being bombarded by proselytizing faiths are being taken away a little bit every day. I was raised a southern baptist (not a follower anymore obviously), and it almost makes me cringe when I hear the leader of that faith talk about how it is his mission to visit all 50 states and baptise over a million people this year. It seems to be a numbers game, bring in as many people as you can (which goes hand in hand with tithing increases)and you earn special favor in heaven. They also reject anyone who feels differently as a heathen, instead of someone who chooses to think for themselves and not be some mindless automaton. They are prejudiced against homosexuals and women in general and use the bible or koran or whatever as an excuse. In my opinion most of the religious right are so caught up in the structure of their faith that they are missing the forest for the trees. [By the way, I am not an Atheist and I am not trying to condemn anyone who has faith in a deity, just trying to explain where I am coming from.]

Anyway, back to the topic, a lot of the things that Jasmine and her followers say and do remind me of present and past religious right followers. I also began to understand Connor a little more upon subsequent viewings. He was raised almost from birth by a puritanical man bent on revenge. Connor had been taught all of his life that his father was evil incarnate. Suddenly he is thrown into this strange new world (ours) with millions of people (many of the opposite sex) and the father that he was taught to hate. A teenage boy that is already dealing with his changing body then has to deal with this strange new world is bound to make some bad decisions. Also, I think that the only "religion" that this boy grew up with was revenge and violence. The revenge part was personal, taught to him by Holtz; and the violence part was necessary to survive. Then he comes here and everything he thought he knew was turned upside down except for the violence. The violence was a constant in his life and all he wanted deep down was to rest, to be without all of the constant fighting; whether it be with demons & vampires, wolfram & hart, his father, or the rest of the gang. So when Jasmine offered him the false hope of eternal peace on earth, even though he himself was not under her thrall like the rest of the world was or was about to be, he went along with it because he saw it as his only chance to end the violence that had dominated his life up to that point. But as I said above it was indeed a false hope and he realized that it could not last. So he decides to go out with a bang. Lucky for him wolfram & hart came to angel & gang at that time to give them the keys to their castle. Seemingly to reward them for ending peace on earth, but in reality it was to keep a close eye on them and keep them distracted from the ultimate plan of the senior partners. To coin a phrase: keep your friends close but your enemies closer.
As for Wes (my favorite character of any ME sh

ZEEK

Wednesday, August 25, 2004 7:01 PM (P)

I thought the end of the season was easily overshadowed by Angelus and the Beast. Up until evil cordy and jasmine the season was going great. Angelus was back and stirring things up. There was an invincible Beast to fight. Faith returned and was just as amazing as ever. Then we lose Angelus, Faith and the Beast and instead we get Cordy doing some of the worst acting of her career and some weird baddie that really isn't all to scary.

Orpheus was a great episode though. One of my favorite.

GROUNDED

Thursday, August 26, 2004 10:58 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
The pregnancy is distracting, I agree. Also, remember Cordy has been essentially taken over by Jasmine the moment she ascended with Skip's (who we find out later is evil) help. He's been planning this all along, so the "real" Cordy we loved has been gone since Season 3.

Yes but Cordy was already messed up at the end of S3 when she returned from vacation with Groo. And the 'possessed by Jasmine' excuse isn't good enough because if she doesn't behave the way we expect her to then Jasmine isn't the great deceiver she's supposed to be. Forgot to mention Skip before - for me, what made Skip great was that he was this monstrous looking creature who actually served good. To make him evil was to completely negate the worth of his character.

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:

I think it's a mark of how far he's fallen.

I understand what it's supposed to represent but that doesn't mean I agree with ME choosing to portray his fall this way. There were plenty other things they could have done.

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:

What I meant here is how DB portrays each character. When he's Angel, you know it, and when he's Angelus, you definitely know it. I enjoy watching him have fun with Angelus. And I agree that Angelus didn't kill enough people. He talks too much.

The character continuity is upset though. Go back and watch Buffy S2 and compare the two versions of Angelus. In S4 Angel he is petty and crude, in Buffy S2 he's this quiet psychotic type - far more effective.

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:

I look forward to some commentary on the DVDs on this. The character was intriguing and had really cool powers, and they dropped her without explanation.

She was too much of an X-men rip-off for me. There was little or no (meaningful) back story - this was a 2D character amongst a 3D crowd. Compare Gwen to Bethany from S2's Untouched. Both have mutant-like powers but look at the depth they achieved with Bethany in only one episode.

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:

Of course, nothing is invincible, but it's stretched out across the season as if it were. The Beast was just a pawn in EvilCordy/Skip/Jasmine's plan. And the creature FX/makeup was kick-ass.

Care to explain the plan? It doesn't really make any sense.

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:

I thought Angel maintained the strained relationship Faith had with Wes and Angel this season, and how she was able to step in despite misgivings and help out. How was she butchered in Buffy?

She says 'Yo' a lot. Nuff said ;)

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:

He's actually in more episodes this season than he is in Season 5...and we won't even mention what they did to his character in the season finale of Season 5. That was sad.

The ending for Lorne's character was absolute classic ME material. One of the finest moments of a solid, if not great, season. I only wish we could have seen these story threads taken further.

RHYMEPHILE

Thursday, August 26, 2004 7:47 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
{Originally posted by me) Of course, nothing is invincible, but it's stretched out across the season as if it were. The Beast was just a pawn in EvilCordy/Skip/Jasmine's plan. And the creature FX/makeup was kick-ass.

Care to explain the plan? It doesn't really make any sense.

Um, no, because the plan confused the hell outta me. I was totally befuzzled with the "birth" of Jasmine at the time, and only learned later that they all were working together. It seemed like they got most of the way through the season, and then bam, decided to add Jasmine to the mix and had to come up with a reason. I was happy with the Beast and Angelus through the season, and completely mystified with Jasmine.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All of me is beautiful and valuable, even the ugly, stupid, and disgusting parts.

ZEEK

Thursday, August 26, 2004 10:05 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
{Originally posted by me) Of course, nothing is invincible, but it's stretched out across the season as if it were. The Beast was just a pawn in EvilCordy/Skip/Jasmine's plan. And the creature FX/makeup was kick-ass.

Care to explain the plan? It doesn't really make any sense.

Um, no, because the plan confused the hell outta me. I was totally befuzzled with the "birth" of Jasmine at the time, and only learned later that they all were working together. It seemed like they got most of the way through the season, and then bam, decided to add Jasmine to the mix and had to come up with a reason. I was happy with the Beast and Angelus through the season, and completely mystified with Jasmine.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All of me is beautiful and valuable, even the ugly, stupid, and disgusting parts.

Yes, I totally agree with this. It seems like they had a great season going and then bam they quickly switched directions with a poorly designed excuse and just sort of patched some things together at the last minute. I always thought that cordy leaving the show was the reason..."oops cordy's leaving...eh lets just say she was possessed with some evil dealy".

GROUNDED

Friday, August 27, 2004 11:29 AM (P)

It's quite clear the birth of Jasmine was the plan all along (I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned in interviews) but what exactly was the point of all the Beast/blotted-Sun stuff then?

RHYMEPHILE

Friday, August 27, 2004 1:46 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
It's quite clear the birth of Jasmine was the plan all along (I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned in interviews) but what exactly was the point of all the Beast/blotted-Sun stuff then?

Exactly! It didn't make sense then, and even after reading about the season it still doesn't make sense. The Big Evil couldn't have known the gang would bring Angelus back/through/awake, so it wouldn't have sent the Beast just for that.

I was also thinking that perhaps the Beast was sent as something to keep Angel & Co. occupied so that Connor and Cordelia could get together. But then the fact that it wanted Angelus to team up with it makes no sense.

Blotting out the sun obviously has its advantages by allowing the vampires and demons to roam free, but that wouldn't tie in with the whole point of introducing Jasmine.

I dunno, it still doesn't make sense.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All of me is beautiful and valuable, even the ugly, stupid, and disgusting parts.

CAPTAINCDC

Friday, August 27, 2004 4:08 PM (P)

I've read here that the beast master could not have known that they would bring forth angelus. Why not? Jasmine arranged for a son to be born of two vampires, an unprecedented event. She arranged for Cordy to ascend under false pretenses. She had the beast do most of her dirty work or distract the gang so that Cordy could do it in his stead. Once Jasmine was born, she made it very clear that she wanted Angel on her side. I think the reason that she wanted him to stay as angelus was because she thought that as long as he was evil that he would not be trying to stop her birth which angel was bent on accomplishing. Also, one possible reason that the Beast was ordered to blot out the sun may have been to create chaos. Which would have allowed the beast and master to carry out their goal with minimal interference especially without angel fighting with the rest of his gang. In fact Angel being Angelus distracted the rest of the gang as well. They not only had to worry about him but the rest of the vampires in the city that were running rampant.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

GROUNDED

Friday, August 27, 2004 5:41 PM (P)

The problem with that is they can explain *anything* away by saying Jasmine 'arranged' it. It's poor plotting.

CAPTAINCDC

Friday, August 27, 2004 7:01 PM (P)

If you don't buy her ability to foresee and affect future events then what do you think about the myriad prophecies that the characters studied and tried to avoid all the time. If Saijahn(SP?) was able to change a prophecy in order to further his own agenda then why could Jasmine not do the same. To me the main difference was that we were aware of what Saijahn was trying to do for the most part all along and we did not find out about Jasmine until it was too late. I don't remember if you are one who thought they just came up with this Jasmine idea overnight toward the end of the season to explain everything, but I do not buy that. Joss thinks everything through so far in advance. I mean usually he knows where he is going a couple of years ahead of time. I may be wrong but that is what I think. And as for the poor plotting, how can that be when almost everything that preceded Jasmine's birth was actually a means to bring about Jasmine and the characters and audience had no idea. They kept us guessing but interested (well some of us I guess) the whole way. To me they explained everything that was necessary to my satisfaction and I enjoyed the Jasmine as metaphor for religious right story arc. Maybe we will just have to agree to disagree.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

ZEEK

Friday, August 27, 2004 7:09 PM (P)

I don't buy it. Why would joss go to so much trouble to come up with the beast and have him do so much stuff just to say in the end, "yeah all that? we were just killing time". They didn't explain it well. Which leads me to believe they weren't planning on doing it at all. They couldn't explain cause they hadn't really thought it through. Jasmine was a weak character all around in my opinion. Add to that how quickly they had to start and end her whole story...just doesn't fit with the rest of Joss's stuff. At least we know he was distracted with 3 series at the time. We'll give him a get out of jail free card on this one.

GROUNDED

Saturday, August 28, 2004 9:46 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by captaincdc:
To me they explained everything that was necessary to my satisfaction and I enjoyed the Jasmine as metaphor for religious right story arc. Maybe we will just have to agree to disagree.

Yes I know they 'explained' everything but they did so in a rather flimsy way. They could justify absolutely anything by saying 'oh it was pre-ordained, Jasmine arranged for it to happen'. It justisfies even illogical plot threads and that's just not playing fair. But, of course, if you enjoyed it then lucky you ;)

CAPTAINCDC

Wednesday, September 8, 2004 5:08 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
Sometimes David Boreanaz can go over the top with Angelus, and there are moments of it during this season, but I really enjoy watching him portray Angelus. He does a great job of keeping Angel/Angelus completely separate, and gives Angelus a kind of wide-eyed wonder at being evil I find hilarious.

I found this quote by the lovely Amy Acker concerning DB as Angelus. I was not aware he ad libbed as much on that character as he did. I thought you might be interested if you had not heard this before.

Quote:

[on her "Angel" character Fred facing the evil vampire Angelus as played by star David Boreanaz, who ad libbed a lot of his lines:] "I think it's great; he has so much fun playing that character. It's a lot of improvisation and taking risks. You never know what he's going to say; it changes from take to take. He's definitely trying to make a shock; he's going out of his way to make me uncomfortable. It's hard. She [Fred] has heard everything he can do. He's bringing out some of the vulnerability in Fred." [January 23, 2003]

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

RHYMEPHILE

Wednesday, September 8, 2004 6:11 PM (P)

Huh. That's pretty cool, the fact they allowed him to do that, considering what fans are always complaining about, i.e. his poor acting skills. I do love Angelus and wish they kept him around longer. I wonder if his scenes with Eliza Dushku were unscripted?

And ETA: When she says "He's going out of his way to make me uncomfortable" I wonder if AA is talking about herself or Fred? Interesting. Is there more to this article?

And to jump back quickly to the original conversation: the Season 4 commentary on Apocolypse, Nowish has some great info about the season, spoken by the writer and director of the ep (Steven S. DeKnight and Vern Gillum). Seems as though the entire season really covers only a span of 3 weeks, and all the events that transpire occur within those 3 weeks. It puts the season into a kind of perspective.

Also, in the ep "Spin the Bottle" Joss Whedon comments offhandedly about Cordelia's being away as being "tortured." I find that interesting in the scope of what we see happens, since we see the glowing white light around her and assume she's happy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All of me is beautiful and valuable, even the ugly, stupid, and disgusting parts.

CAPTAINCDC

Wednesday, September 8, 2004 6:54 PM (P)

This was the first time I had heard that he ad libbed. I was very surprised. That snippet that I posted earlier is the only reference to his ad libbing scenes that I have been able to find. I think that she was talking about how he made her feel which of course carried over to the character that she was trying to portray, to make her feeling of apprehension seem more realistic. I just got my S4 box set in from amazon, so I cannot wait to get home from work to devour them. I'm really looking forward to listening to the commentaries.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

ZEEK

Wednesday, September 8, 2004 9:35 PM (P)

Let us know if there's any good insight in those DVD's. This season has always sorta left me puzzled.

Like the wolfram and hart part. Why did the beast attack them? Apparently he had no goal whatsoever there...but Jasmine of course wanted him to.

Like they said in the episode I saw on tv last night...the rain of fire, wolfram and hart, bloting out the sun...all those things they list at the end of the season seem to have zero purpose accept to fill up the season with episodes. That doesn't seem like the well planned season that Joss usually delivers.

RHYMEPHILE

Thursday, September 9, 2004 1:56 PM (P)

I should have added this previously: For anyone who just bought the Angel season 4 box set and hasn't seen all of season 4 yet: don't listen to the commentary on "Apocalypse, Nowish." Steven and Vern completely give away the entire season in their brief commentary for the episode.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All of me is beautiful and valuable, even the ugly, stupid, and disgusting parts.

ZEEK

Thursday, September 9, 2004 2:40 PM (P)

Do they explain why the beast attacked wolfram and hart?

Do they explain why Jasmine would want Angelus loose? Lila says "he'll kill us all" or something like that to which Cordie replies "why do you think I let him out" or something along those lines. Since she immediately after killed Lila she really had no reason to lie at that point. However, Jasmine didn't seem to want anyone dead really. She just wanted blind happiness and to have some people to eat once in a while. I don't think she'd even have killed anyone if she didn't have to feed on them. Seems odd that she wanted Angelus to kill everyone then.

RHYMEPHILE

Thursday, September 9, 2004 2:50 PM (P)

No explantions...they never even explained why the dead lawyers at Wolfram & Hart became zombies. Fred brings it up at one point, wondering if the Beast has that power as well, but it wasn't discussed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All of me is beautiful and valuable, even the ugly, stupid, and disgusting parts.

CAPTAINCDC

Thursday, September 9, 2004 4:08 PM (P)

I think the Beast and the Master wanted W&H out of the game. Lilah says when the apocalypse stuff starts happening that it was interfering with their apocalypse and she was not going to let that happen. W&H had what Lorne had gotten off of Cordelia and the Master did not want W&H to figure out what they were going to do. Plus, if Jasmine really did not want to harm anyone (which I do not buy, she did not want to harm anyone IF they did not get in her way and until she got hungry) then she would want W&H out of the way because they were evil. I think the Master wanted W&H out of the way and for the gang to be distracted. Stephen S. Deknight said in the commentary that Cordelia was trying to distract Angel to get him and the gang out of the way. The Beast rained fire from the sky to facilitate Cordy and Conner's consummation. As to the zombies, I'll have to watch those eps again before I comment on that. As for Angelus being loose, I think the Master wanted as much chaos to be going on as possible before her "birth" to make it easier to emerge uninterrupted and to conquer LA and then the world. If Angelus killed Gunn, Fred, and Wes then the gang would not be able to stop her plan. If the gang was busy searching for and fighting Angelus then they could not stop her plan. I think it was in her best interest to keep the gang and W&H busy, distracted, or dead for her plan to come to fruition. Think about it, if W&H were against the Master's plan which I think they were based on Lilah's words and her obvious fear, then the Master would want them out of commission. They are extremely powerful with the backing of the senior partners and the Master did not want to risk any interference with her plan.

Edited to add: I forgot to mention another reason for the Beast to attack W&H. He wanted to get to Mezehktet(sp?). He was systematically killing off the members of the Ra-Tet. He needed their power to block out the sun. Mezehktet (the little girl in the white room) was also the conduit which provided the senior partners an earthly presence. So in addition to getting closer to blotting out the sun, the Beast ensured that the senior partners were temporarily out of commission so they could not interfere with the Master's plans.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

GROUNDED

Friday, September 10, 2004 9:42 AM (P)

Why doesn't Evil!Cordy just kill them all in their sleep then?...

CAPTAINCDC

Friday, September 10, 2004 7:20 PM (P)

I don't think the Master/Cordy wanted to kill the gang. She obviously could not harm Connor. And I think she wanted the rest of the gang alive so that under her thrall they could do her bidding, at the very least she wanted Angel for that purpose.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

ZEEK

Friday, September 10, 2004 9:00 PM (P)

Oh yeah the girl in the white room. OK that makes the wolfram and hart attack a little more justified. But only a little. Especially when you consider blotting out the sun had no point.

The reason I don't buy that everything was a distraction is just because of how much of a point they made the whole season about what the point of all of it was. Then to find out that really there was no point...it was just random stuff to make it a full season rather than the 5 actual episodes of plot that they had....seems super shallow and pointless.

Maybe it was just one of Joss's things where he is making sure to not give the audience what they expect but it just doesn't flow at all to me. It's a one sentence excuse for a lot of episodes of rising action.

GROUNDED

Saturday, September 11, 2004 4:17 PM (P)

Exactly.

CAPTAINCDC

Monday, September 13, 2004 9:45 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Oh yeah the girl in the white room. OK that makes the wolfram and hart attack a little more justified. But only a little. Especially when you consider blotting out the sun had no point.

The reason I don't buy that everything was a distraction is just because of how much of a point they made the whole season about what the point of all of it was. Then to find out that really there was no point...it was just random stuff to make it a full season rather than the 5 actual episodes of plot that they had....seems super shallow and pointless.

Maybe it was just one of Joss's things where he is making sure to not give the audience what they expect but it just doesn't flow at all to me. It's a one sentence excuse for a lot of episodes of rising action.

You may still think there was no point after reading this, but here goes anyway. I think there was a point to blotting out the sun. It was to motivate the gang to bring about Angelus. The Beast blotted out the sun. All along the gang was fighting the Beast to no avail to say the least. The Master (IMO) knows that the gang is a very formidable opponent if they have Angel. Without him (as Gunn and others pointed out several times) they are directionless to a degree. Granted all of the gang have their strong points, but they do not function to their fullest without Angel leading them. So the Beast blots out the sun and then Cordy conveniently gets a vision of the Beast talking with Angelus. The gang was desperate and the only lead they had was that Angelus was to some unknown degree connected to the Beast. They thought they had no choice but to bring about Angelus to find out what he knew. This is the point of blotting out the sun. The Master (for whatever reason) wanted Angelus brought forth (Cordy/Master said so, I believe when she was talking to Angelus in that hilarious voice). Now, why did the Master want Angelus around instead of Angel? Could be to distract the gang from fighting against her. Could be she thought Angelus would do her bidding more aggressively if he did not have that pesky soul holding him back. Could be the writers wanted Angelus to make an appearance and this was the reason they came up with. Or it could be for a myriad of other reasons. I was not in the writer's room (unfortunately) so anything I come up with is just supposition. However, Steven S Deknight said in the commentary for Apocalypse Nowish that they had to scramble and change the order or timeframe of exposing certain things because of The WB. When The WB announced the air dates of the eps, it conflicted with what they were expecting and had to adjust some things to compensate. I don't know if that had anything what so ever to do with it, just wanted to throw it out there.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

GROUNDED

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 9:37 AM (P)

That's not a reason for blotting out the sun - why would the vision alone not be enough?

IDEFIX

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 12:26 PM (P)

I think all the Beast and the destruction he did or let happen was for was making everyone desperate, afraid, nervous, whatever you want to call it. he was the darkness to Jasmin's supposed light, the contrast to make her shine even more.

she wanted the world (or at least LA) to be at its worst before she came to save everyone.

and from going from a simple end-of-the-world indestructible stone demon thing to the goddess of love and mindcontrol was a brilliant arc. I was sitting there disappointed in the bad guy of the season because some dumb stone thing really can't shake me much. even if he blots out the sun and seems to be indestructible, they never are and the good guys always find a way to kill the monster. and then there was a master of the beast and Angelus was brought back and finally Jasmin came and I was terrified, watching Fred struggle to prevent the worst that could ever happen to us all, being mindcontrolled into whatever some god wants us to be.

have I mentioned that I love S4 of Angel? but I also love S6 of Buffy, I love the everything's falling apart seasons, they seem so much more real than the normal some random badass wants to destroy the world and the good guys stand together to prevent it seasons. doesn't mean I don't love the rest of both shows, though I think both shows shine in being so different from season to season. doing the same all over again every year is more the thing of Star Trek, not bad but not great either.

this thread will never die, won't it? we've just so very different reasons to love or hate this season, at least no one thinks it was boring and the same as all the others.

Idefix

MAUGWAI

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 12:41 PM (P)

Darn, Idefix beat me by about a minute. I agree that everything the Beast did was supposed to throw the world into such darkness that Jasmine would save them all. Angel Inc. did it first - on to plan B.

She wanted them out of the way because if anyone could (and did) figure out that she wasn't quite the magnifiscent light she claimed to be it would be Angel's crew. The one person she wanted to keep around was Conner. Look at how jealous she got when he became interested in Faith. She's a master of manipulation, and she'd prefer it to getting her hands dirty. Even killing Lilah was a manipulation. She wanted Wesley to think Angel had doen it, maybe so he'd feel like taking revenge on Angelus and get killed in the process?

But all that didn't work out, so plan B in full effect. She had to make them all love her and hope that nobody figured it out. Look how irritated she got when the sun came out. She had to plan B the whole thing, so that may be why it's a little confusing to figure out her original plan.

Also, the orirginal plan was for the fight to be with Cordy. I think she was supposed to be so egomaniacle now that she wanted to use her higher being experience to take control, but she got pregnant so it had to be Jasmine instead with the same basic plot. That also explains some of the confusion.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

GROUNDED

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 1:44 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
though I think both shows shine in being so different from season to season. doing the same all over again every year is more the thing of Star Trek, not bad but not great either.

I don't agree with this. Imagine Firefly lasting for several seasons (*sniff*) - can you imagine them totally reinventing the way the show is presented over the course? I can't. They'd have stuck with the ship and the crew and just continued to come up with brilliant little interconnected mini-stories that continue to flesh out the characters and their relationships. I'd have much preferred Angel to remain true to the spirit of S1/S2, where Angel and his team are struggling to help the little people and only occasionally taking on something on a large scale.

IDEFIX

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 2:08 PM (P)

let's agree to disagree, you seem to like the more 'stable' (for lack of a better word) parts of the shows whereas I really loved the really 'out of it' parts. I love Farcape, you probably don't. right?

there's good things to say about both sides. it's a matter of taste and that's nothing to argue or even debate.

I was pretty disappointed in Angel after watching S1 and most of S2, I only really loved the Pylean arc at the end, because I love Lorne and his homeworld was just to die for. I loved phantom Dennis because he's just cool, and I loved Wesley because I've always loved Wesely and will always love Wesley whatever he does.

I had seen all of Buffy in the space of a few weeks because I loved Firefly and someone told me to watch Buffy. I didn't want to but I was bored. and it drew me in fairly quickly and it never let me go up to the end. I think seasons 1, 4 and 5 were the worst but they all had good things too so not one of them was really bad. I switched to Angel because there was no more Firefly and no more Buffy and I was still bored, I have no life really *grin*.

but I didn't really get caught by Angel until season 3/4/5 I just watched it because I had already watched all of Buffy twice and all of Firefly a hundred times (ok that's not true, but often) but then after Pylea it changed and it was interesting.

I'm now watching old EPs randomly at the moment waiting for my DVDs of S1 so I can sit my boyfriend down (probably have to tie him up, he didn't much like watching Buffy) and make him watch Angel from the start. he's seen Buffy S1-5 and didn't much like it, too girlish, he says like Beverly Hills 90210 with vampires. he doesn't like teenage soaps and he doesn't like vampires or horror in general. more of a SciFi fan really. he loves DS9 and B5 and just found a new addiction in CSI. we're german and we get our TV from the net or on DVD since we don't much like synchronised stuff.

he'd probably agree with you, so I'm pretty much used to the debate. I'm the crazy one in the family he's the stable one. I love my entertainment wild and weird and unpredictable and maybe even a little un-understandable. gritty and dark and real and strong and confusing and mind-blowing, also come to mind.

Idefix

RHYMEPHILE

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 2:31 PM (P)

I haven't gotten through the entire season yet, but what struck me when I was watching the eps where they bring back Angelus is how much Cordy is manipulating Angel into doing it. Meaning, I didn't notice it the first time around while we all thought she was nomal Cordy.

At the beginning of the season she tells him she can't be with him because she's seen everything he did as Angelus while she was on the higher plane. That means, I think, that Jasmine also knows all about Angelus, and mind-whammys Cordy into talking to Angel about bringing Angelus forth.

So Jasmine knows all about Angelus, and seeks to use him to bring about the downfall of man, since he already had connections to the Beast. The Beast kills the Ra-Tet, blots out the sun, and this way the bad guys have control using total darkness. Jasmine thinks Angelus will be on her side until Angelus goes rogue on her and kills the Beast.

The thing that was odd was that when Jasmine was first "born," she wasn't all that evil. She stopped wars, brought peace, and okay, sucked out the essences of a few people, but that's a fair deal when it comes to billions saved. She was all goddess-like and called everyone her children. Gotcha.

Which begs the question about why the sun needed to be blotted out in the first place. I assume it's because she wanted Angelus free, but didn't expect him to turn on her. But if that were so, how could she have ruled over a dying planet with no sun?

Arrgggghhh...I love season 4. I do. I enjoy it more than the other seasons of Angel. But I think to save my sanity, I pretend that the Beast/Angelus/blotting out sun/kick-ass Faith returns storyline is one arc, and then the birth of Jasmine and her subsequent downfall and memory erasing as another. Thus, Seasons 4.1 and 4.2.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There's no emoticon for what I'm feeling!

-- Comic Book Guy

CAPTAINCDC

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 3:05 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
That's not a reason for blotting out the sun - why would the vision alone not be enough?

You saw how resistant Angel was to the plan to bring back Angelus. Cordy had to make sure they were desperate enough to take that action. Angel did not want to do it, he kept saying they would find another way. He was scared of what he might do as Angelus, and did not want his friends or Connor to see him like that.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

CAPTAINCDC

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 3:20 PM (P)

Quote:
Which begs the question about why the sun needed to be blotted out in the first place. I assume it's because she wanted Angelus free, but didn't expect him to turn on her. But if that were so, how could she have ruled over a dying planet with no sun?

I think that would have been Jasmine's first "miracle", bringing back the sun. She wanted the immediate area in chaos so she could swoop in and "save" everyone.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

GROUNDED

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 4:33 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
let's agree to disagree, you seem to like the more 'stable' (for lack of a better word) parts of the shows whereas I really loved the really 'out of it' parts. I love Farcape, you probably don't. right?

Wow, you nailed that ;)

Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:

I love my entertainment wild and weird and unpredictable and maybe even a little un-understandable. gritty and dark and real and strong and confusing and mind-blowing, also come to mind.

I have no problem with any of the above, but only if it's done well. I don't believe S4 was done well - there was a lot of out-of-character behaviour, some pointless plot threads, some woeful dialogue and the most obviously pregnant actress in the history of TV ;) S3 is a good example of how to do a long arc well and I don't think S4 lives up to it.

On the subject of 'pain and hardship' in Buffy/Angel. I think in many of the later seasons of both shows, they reached saturation point. When absolutely everything is going wrong and it's all despair and disaster, the drama just gets sucked away. If all you have are bumps in the road, soon you stop feeling them anymore...

But if you enjoyed it, then I guess you're one of the lucky ones. From my perspective, Angel starts out amazing and gradually declines with a brief recovery at the end. For you it just gets better ;)

CAPTAINCDC

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 4:51 PM (P)

Quote:
I have no problem with any of the above, but only if it's done well. I don't believe S4 was done well - there was a lot of out-of-character behaviour, some pointless plot threads, some woeful dialogue and the most obviously pregnant actress in the history of TV ;) S3 is a good example of how to do a long arc well and I don't think S4 lives up to it.

Hey Grounded, you might like to check out the commentary with writer/director Steven S Deknight on the ep Inside Out. He talks about some of what you touched on. He said that originally Cordy was going to be the big bad of the season (along with the Beast), but then they found out she was pregnant, so they had to come up with the Jasmine arc to take the story the rest of the way since Charisma was about to give birth. I am curious as to who exactly you think acted out of character?

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

IDEFIX

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 5:09 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
... and the most obviously pregnant actress in the history of TV ;)

and that I have to agree with, she was way too pregnant to play anything besides pregnant and they tried to ignore it for far too long.
don't know who's fault that was but it was not good planning. women tend to know they're pregnant before they really look pregnant but maybe they had to come up with a story and no one had an idea.

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
On the subject of 'pain and hardship' in Buffy/Angel. I think in many of the later seasons of both shows, they reached saturation point. When absolutely everything is going wrong and it's all despair and disaster, the drama just gets sucked away. If all you have are bumps in the road, soon you stop feeling them anymore...

maybe I need more 'pain and hardship' to feel it. not sure what that says about me, I've been accused of being pretty cold blooded sometimes. and it's only TV anyway. I'm known to read really darf fanfic too. and I'm not a big fan of happy ends at least not all the time. too much pain almost never keeps me from reading something, too much bliss always keeps me away.

sometimes I like to drown myself in pain. and that is what S6 of Buffy does for me, it gets worse and worse till there is no light anywhere left. and then I let myself be rescued at the and by Giles laughing at the absurdity of it all. it's an emotional freefall with an unexpected bungy rope catching you at the end. maybe it only works if you don't think too hard about it, just feel it go down faster and faster.

S4 of Angel is more about the confusion than the pain. can't describe it any better.

but even I think sometimes Joss goes somewhat overboard with killing every last shred of happiness his characters might feel. he should have given Fred and Wes at least one or two more EPs to be happy, they deserved more than two kisses and two minutes of flirting followed by a painful death, but then again he would have, had the show not been canceled.

Idefix

GROUNDED

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 8:15 PM (P)

I see what you mean. Another of my problems with Angel S4 and later seasons of Buffy is that everything revolves around the gang. Like 80% of S4 Angel is set inside the hotel - the outside word doesn't enroach very often and I think the show suffers for it. It's good to see characters interacting with new people, even if for short periods. By forcing all your prinicipals into close proximity for long periods it becomes hard to do anything new with them.

As for those I felt were out of character:
Angel
Angelus
Connor
Cordelia (even if she was possessed or whatever)
Faith
and, to a lesser extent, Gunn and Fred, although that was more a continuation of out of character behaviour from the end of S3.

ZEEK

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 9:14 PM (P)

Ah ha! I knew the plot had to have been a last minute change. Cordy being pregnant made them change it. Problem solved. I just couldn't accept that the total disconnect in the season was planned all along. It puts my mind at ease to know that the writers didn't fail us. They were forced into a corner and that's the best they could throw out there.

I could really see the season being cool though if Cordy and the beast or maybe Cordy and Angelus were teamed up as the big bad in the end....that would have been really cool. Jasmine just didn't do it for me. Maybe she would have if the season had been leading up to her. But that season was all about a big bad showdown. Not a friendly happy fantasy illusionist.

GROUNDED

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 10:21 PM (P)

I think Jasmine is a better idea anyway (even if they 'created' her poorly). Something a bit more original. The Beast was a hopeless villain and the Angelus dialogue for S4 was utterly tragic.

CAPTAINCDC

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 10:28 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Ah ha! I knew the plot had to have been a last minute change. Cordy being pregnant made them change it. Problem solved. I just couldn't accept that the total disconnect in the season was planned all along. It puts my mind at ease to know that the writers didn't fail us. They were forced into a corner and that's the best they could throw out there.

I could really see the season being cool though if Cordy and the beast or maybe Cordy and Angelus were teamed up as the big bad in the end....that would have been really cool. Jasmine just didn't do it for me. Maybe she would have if the season had been leading up to her. But that season was all about a big bad showdown. Not a friendly happy fantasy illusionist.

I don't know how much they changed as to the plot of the season. Deknight said that the overall arc was set in the beginning, once they found out Charisma was pregnant they just had to come up with something (Jasmine) to take it the few extra steps since Charisma was having a baby. Toward the end of Charisma's run in S4, she was only working like 6 hour days and her due date was rapidly approaching. Cordy was going to be the big bad for the entire season instead of 3/4 of it. I think it was going to be something that she picked up as a higher being, maybe that it went to her head that she was in fact A Higher Being. So there was probably a lot that stayed the same. I mean to say that there may not have been a radical difference in the season if she had not been pregnant. Deknight talked like the major things that had an effect on breaking the season was Charisma's pregnancy and the WB's scheduling. I love S4 just the way it is, might it have been better if Charisma had not gotten pregnant at that time, we will never know, but I'm happy with what we got.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

CAPTAINCDC

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 10:31 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
I think Jasmine is a better idea anyway (even if they 'created' her poorly). Something a bit more original. The Beast was a hopeless villain and the Angelus dialogue for S4 was utterly tragic.

As to Angelus's dialogue, Amy Acker said that Boreanaz improvised a lot during those scenes. That might explain it, but it didn't really bother me.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

CAPTAINCDC

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 10:35 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
I see what you mean. Another of my problems with Angel S4 and later seasons of Buffy is that everything revolves around the gang. Like 80% of S4 Angel is set inside the hotel - the outside word doesn't enroach very often and I think the show suffers for it. It's good to see characters interacting with new people, even if for short periods. By forcing all your prinicipals into close proximity for long periods it becomes hard to do anything new with them.

As for those I felt were out of character:
Angel
Angelus
Connor
Cordelia (even if she was possessed or whatever)
Faith
and, to a lesser extent, Gunn and Fred, although that was more a continuation of out of character behaviour from the end of S3.

Well the only people you left out are Wes and Lorne so I guess you thought they were all right. Which is cool with me, cause Wes is one of my all time favorite characters. My love for Angel the Series is due in no small part to the character of Wesley. He evolved so much in those last three seasons. Which is part of the reason why the last three seasons are my favorites of the series.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

IDEFIX

Wednesday, September 15, 2004 8:49 AM (P)

it would be nice to know if they changed the story or if they just changed the people.

I'd like to think they had the Jasmin story planned but it was supposed to be Cordelia that brought all the love and mindcontrol to LA and the rest of the world. with this glowing power thing she did since she was part demon. she did pretty much the same thing Jasmin did to everyone to Connor, when he attacked her when he was first back from Quor'Toth (sp?).

if they came up with the mindcontrol thing just because Carisma was pregnant than I'm very happy she was. I wouldn't want to have missed that shiver down my spine. Jasmin really scared me and I'm not that easily scared.

but I seem to be the only one who thought it very brilliant to first have this dumb, strong, indestructible, one-dimensional, totally uninteresting bad guy in form of the beast and than reveal that it was just a distraction for everyone to make them more easily mindcontrolled into being happy zombies under the thumb of an old god/demon whatever kind of higher being planning on toying with our world for a while.

I think it way planned as 'Jasmin' being the demon inserted into Cordy when she had the problems with the visions and her ascention being this demon manifesting somehow and her being back and commanding the beast as his master the plan to distract everyone and make the world dark and uninviting and everyone ready to be rescued by this demon inside Cordy that really only wanted to rule the world by taking everyones will away. it was a bout a 'higher being' playing with its power over humans. kinda like Q on Star Tek, only with the love and mind control vibe instead of the bad practical jokes.

other opinions?

Idefix

GROUNDED

Wednesday, September 15, 2004 9:59 AM (P)

CaptainCDC: Yes, Wes and Lorne survive relatively unscathed ;)

Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
I think it way planned as 'Jasmin' being the demon inserted into Cordy when she had the problems with the visions and her ascention being this demon manifesting somehow and her being back and commanding the beast as his master the plan to distract everyone and make the world dark and uninviting and everyone ready to be rescued by this demon inside Cordy that really only wanted to rule the world by taking everyones will away. it was a bout a 'higher being' playing with its power over humans. kinda like Q on Star Tek, only with the love and mind control vibe instead of the bad practical jokes.

other opinions?

The whole distraction idea doesn't really fit. After Cordy has 'got what she wanted' from Connor, all she has to do is leave town and wait for Jasmine to be born. It's established later on that all you have to do is look at Jasmine to fall under her spell - whether the world is dark and uninviting or not.

ZEEK

Wednesday, September 15, 2004 6:39 PM (P)

I agree that the distraction idea just doesn't flow. There were plenty of ways to avoid Angel's team's interferance. Heck Cordy could have just asked Conner to kill all of them. He would have done it easy. Or just leave town with Conner like was suggested.

I wish Charisma hadn't gotten pregnant though. Then we could have avoided the weird sex scene with Cordy and Conner. That was just disturbing.

I was never afraid of Jasmine at all though. Maybe when she went nuts after her little glammer was broken but before that she seemed about as powerful as Amy turning herself into a rat in Buffy. It had been well established that love spells were pretty easy to cast in Buffy. That's all Jasmine ever seemed to pull off just on a wide scale. The big bad could have been Xander at that point. And it all just seemed like a matter of time before the group found some little trick to finish everything.

The beast was scary to me. He always seemed to be one step ahead of the gang. The fight scene before the rain of fire was probably my favorite from all of the Buffyverse. Angel's team really threw everything they had at him and the beast took them out. If only Joss had the beast kill one of our beloved heroes off could that have been any better. It would have left the team down and out...with their backs to the wall. Those are the times when everyone really shines.

RHYMEPHILE

Wednesday, September 15, 2004 6:52 PM (P)

Whoo hoo! Apocalypse, Now fight scene! I agree, Zeek, it was one of, if not the best fight scenes in the entire Buffyverse. The special effects, Wes with the twin .45s (or 9mms, I watched it a few days ago but didn't look close enough) and the shotgun, and then the whole stake in the neck for Angel. And the blood! Wicked cool.

And Grounded, I'd be interested to know why you thought only Wes and Lorne were in character this season. I'm more interested in Wes though, since his character went through so many ups and downs. And I dig him.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

GROUNDED

Wednesday, September 15, 2004 9:48 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

I wish Charisma hadn't gotten pregnant though. Then we could have avoided the weird sex scene with Cordy and Conner. That was just disturbing.

To be honest, I wouldn't have cared so much about C/C if they hadn't shown the sex scene. Quite frankly it was unnecessary - all Angel needed to see was them kissing. This and the Angel/Cordy scene in Awakening were 'turn away now' moments.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

I was never afraid of Jasmine at all though. Maybe when she went nuts after her little glammer was broken but before that she seemed about as powerful as Amy turning herself into a rat in Buffy. It had been well established that love spells were pretty easy to cast in Buffy. That's all Jasmine ever seemed to pull off just on a wide scale. The big bad could have been Xander at that point. And it all just seemed like a matter of time before the group found some little trick to finish everything.

That's a problem with the Buffyverse as a whole - they make it a little too easy to affect massive changes. I watched Superstar today - if Jonathon can make everyone believe he's a superstar, why can't every other guy?

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

The beast was scary to me. He always seemed to be one step ahead of the gang. The fight scene before the rain of fire was probably my favorite from all of the Buffyverse. Angel's team really threw everything they had at him and the beast took them out. If only Joss had the beast kill one of our beloved heroes off could that have been any better. It would have left the team down and out...with their backs to the wall. Those are the times when everyone really shines.

I hated that fight scene. People getting thrown about on wires does not (necessarily) a good fight scene make. And the introduction of guns was a big disappointment.

Rhymephile: Lorne is pretty much always in character because they rarely do anything to advance him. Which was fair enough for his guest appearances but really he should have had more to do for S4/5. I'm bitter, oh yes ;) Wes is the opposite - he's been developed every single year, and heavily so. There are probably one or two things I'd say are out of character for him (kissing Fred in S4 for one, and the use of guns) but largely they get him, and his dialogue, right. I just wish I hadn't seen all those Wes/Lilah scenes... ;)

ZEEK

Thursday, September 16, 2004 4:36 PM (P)

While this is quite random at this point...did anyone else think The First made a cameo in Angel Season 4 as Lilah? When wes is cutting off dead lilah's head and all? Just curious.

RHYMEPHILE

Thursday, September 16, 2004 6:16 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
...*snip* Wes is the opposite - he's been developed every single year, and heavily so. There are probably one or two things I'd say are out of character for him (kissing Fred in S4 for one, and the use of guns) but largely they get him, and his dialogue, right. I just wish I hadn't seen all those Wes/Lilah scenes... ;)

I agree with you about Lorne, because it seemed the writers could never find a niche for him. In a way, he's kinda like Kaylee of the group. Wouldn't hurt a fly, happy-go-lucky, friends with everyone. But Kaylee is integral to the ship, whereas Lorne...comments on things and talks to contacts we never see.

As for Wes, we know he always had a thing for Fred, but I wish he would have kissed her earlier. I did like Gunn and Fred together though, oddly enough. They had great chemistry. Wes kissing her in "Spin the Bottle" was a little out of left field, but in that same scene we hear Wes' reason about the guns. Gunn is the muscle, Wes is the brains, and when Gunn grabs Wes' arm, he says something to the effect of: "Not all of us can rely on muscle."

I think, also, as you said with Wes' character progression that him getting the heavy firepower is in-character. Why are using propulsion weapons any different than using a battle axe if it will still kill the demon? Wes is using his head here, and using technology to push the odds a little more in his favor. Hell, even Buffy used the bazooka in that ep with the Big Blue Baddie that Spike, Dru, and Angelus conjured back in, um, I don't recall the season. Two? Three? What would have happened if she simply shot all the supernatural critters instead of laboring in a drag-out fight every time? Well, not as cool, maybe, but Wes is dealing the way he knows how.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

GROUNDED

Thursday, September 16, 2004 8:25 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
Why are using propulsion weapons any different than using a battle axe if it will still kill the demon? Wes is using his head here, and using technology to push the odds a little more in his favor. Hell, even Buffy used the bazooka in that ep with the Big Blue Baddie that Spike, Dru, and Angelus conjured back in, um, I don't recall the season. Two? Three? What would have happened if she simply shot all the supernatural critters instead of laboring in a drag-out fight every time? Well, not as cool, maybe, but Wes is dealing the way he knows how.

It's more a matter of prinicipal than character for me. They should never have introduced guns into the hands of the 'good guys' of the Buffyverse - they'd managed up until now without doing it, why start? It ended up producing a load of poor Matrix-ripoff scenes.

RHYMEPHILE

Friday, September 17, 2004 1:04 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
It ended up producing a load of poor Matrix-ripoff scenes.

We'll agree to disagree about that scene. I think it was one of their most effective battle sequences in a long time. The martial arts were well-done, the wire tricks were cool (Angel/Mark Massa doing a back flip, and him flying into the pillar), and Alexis Denisof only blinks once when he's firing both the handguns and the shotgun. It looks cool as hell. That in itself makes it rank up there among the best scenes in the Buffyverse.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

GROUNDED

Friday, September 17, 2004 1:56 PM (P)

Quite honestly, it almost felt like parody to me. When Wesley empties the two pistols and then pulls out the shotgun from his jacket I was like - eh?? I don't want to labour the point, because you obviously enjoyed the scene, but it just seemed wrong to me.

EST120

Thursday, September 30, 2004 2:12 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
Quite honestly, it almost felt like parody to me. When Wesley empties the two pistols and then pulls out the shotgun from his jacket I was like - eh?? I don't want to labour the point, because you obviously enjoyed the scene, but it just seemed wrong to me.

really? i loved that. thought it was way cool. the slow down-speed up filming made it look really flashy on screen. of course, i am looking at it from a visual image standpoint and not concerning the characters. still, it was the scene that sealed wesley as my favorite character.

GROUNDED

Friday, October 1, 2004 11:35 PM (P)

When did you start watching? All you need to see is the end of Five By Five to seal Wesley as favourite ;)

EST120

Saturday, October 2, 2004 1:14 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
When did you start watching? All you need to see is the end of Five By Five to seal Wesley as favourite ;)

i started watching about midway through season 3 and i am up to the first quarter of season 5 right now. wesley is the best.

JENDANDY

Saturday, October 2, 2004 10:22 AM (P)

Hmmm...

Just jumping in here, been reading some of this thread (it's very long!) and some theories you all have about S4 are pretty enlightening, as I found a lot of it to be confusing as heck.

I've got much love for this season. Jasmine was a cool concept but a little bit 'talky' and that got old sometimes. Cordy was one of the worst Big Bads ever and she and Conner getting it on was weird and wrong. I also found it to be a tad melodramatic at times (Salvage is one I can remember in particular...the scene where Wes gets Faith out of prison). But for all it's imperfectness it was cool and big and arc-y and stylish.

But hey now...has this been asked before? What's with the maggots and rotting Jasmine flesh? Is it because she's really old? LOL I don't get it!!
And if Angel had to actually look at Jasmine (Fred too!) to see her 'true' face, then why did the rest of them only need their blood to be mixed with Cordy's to figure out what she was? As far as I know, Gunn, Wes, and Lorne never got to see Jasmine, so how did they just know?

Sig Rebel

AMNESIAC

Saturday, October 2, 2004 11:21 AM (P)

In order to accept the really weird twists and turns of season 4 of angel, I just started thinking of them as ingredients to the spell jasmine needed to cast to come into existence. The power to take over the world with a smile (literally) must take allot of doing. So the blotting out the sun, and the rain of fire were to Jasmine to take over the world, as hornwort, and sage are to Willow for one of her wonky locator spells.

CAPTAINCDC

Saturday, October 2, 2004 3:25 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by JenDandy:
Hmmm...

Just jumping in here, been reading some of this thread (it's very long!) and some theories you all have about S4 are pretty enlightening, as I found a lot of it to be confusing as heck.

I've got much love for this season. Jasmine was a cool concept but a little bit 'talky' and that got old sometimes. Cordy was one of the worst Big Bads ever and she and Conner getting it on was weird and wrong. I also found it to be a tad melodramatic at times (Salvage is one I can remember in particular...the scene where Wes gets Faith out of prison). But for all it's imperfectness it was cool and big and arc-y and stylish.

But hey now...has this been asked before? What's with the maggots and rotting Jasmine flesh? Is it because she's really old? LOL I don't get it!!
And if Angel had to actually look at Jasmine (Fred too!) to see her 'true' face, then why did the rest of them only need their blood to be mixed with Cordy's to figure out what she was? As far as I know, Gunn, Wes, and Lorne never got to see Jasmine, so how did they just know?

Sig Rebel

There was a mental connection between Jasmine and her followers, like a tether. When Fred was exposed to Jasmine's blood, unbeknownst to her, she started to get very emotional. She thought she was upset because of the shirt or that it was her fault that Jasmine got hurt in the first place. She knew that she missed Jasmine when she was not around, but thought that was it. She just needed to be around Jasmine again so that she can go back to feeling like her old Fred self. But, she was wrong, the uneasy feeling Fred had been experiencing was due to the fact that the spell Jasmine had over her was broken. When Angel was exposed to Jasmine's blood in the book store, Jasmine was there. All he had to do was look at her. I think if she had not been there then it would have been pretty much like it was with Fred for Angel (maybe without all the crying). As for the others, Jasmine said that everyday her strength grows as does her connection with her followers. By the time Angel and Fred got around to saving the rest of the gang, I think Jasmine's connection had grown to the point that once it is broken, it is obvious. I think if the rest of the gang had the spell broken earlier when they were alone and Jasmine was not around, then they would have had the same reaction as Fred. It all had to do with the presence of Jasmine and the strength of her mental connection.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

JENDANDY

Sunday, October 3, 2004 1:44 AM (P)

Ahhh, thanks so much! I get it now.
Either I need to watch Angel more (and in order...never seen it in order) or you people are just really, really smart - maybe both? Cus you come up with things I would have never considered.

Sig Rebel

CAPTAINCDC

Monday, October 4, 2004 4:17 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by JenDandy:
Ahhh, thanks so much! I get it now.
Either I need to watch Angel more (and in order...never seen it in order) or you people are just really, really smart - maybe both? Cus you come up with things I would have never considered.

Sig Rebel

I think watching the eps in order would be your best bet. With the heavily serialized nature of seasons 3 & 4, if you miss one ep it can make a lot of things not make sense. Some would say even if you watch all of them in order they still do not make sense, I would not be one of those people. And if you don't watch buffy, start.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

BIKISDAD

Tuesday, October 12, 2004 7:43 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
It's quite clear the birth of Jasmine was the plan all along (I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned in interviews) but what exactly was the point of all the Beast/blotted-Sun stuff then?

Exactly! It didn't make sense then, and even after reading about the season it still doesn't make sense. The Big Evil couldn't have known the gang would bring Angelus back/through/awake, so it wouldn't have sent the Beast just for that.

I was also thinking that perhaps the Beast was sent as something to keep Angel & Co. occupied so that Connor and Cordelia could get together. But then the fact that it wanted Angelus to team up with it makes no sense.

Blotting out the sun obviously has its advantages by allowing the vampires and demons to roam free, but that wouldn't tie in with the whole point of introducing Jasmine.

I dunno, it still doesn't make sense.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All of me is beautiful and valuable, even the ugly, stupid, and disgusting parts.

It actually does make sense and Jasmine gives the explanation herself, although not explicitly. Jasmine's plan is to wipe out all evil on earth (other than herself, if you consider her to be evil). That's why she has The Beast destroy W&H and blot out the sun. The sun blotting was done deliberately to draw demons to L.A. so that Jasmine could have her followers (primarily Angel Investigations) destroy them - that part she does state explicitly.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

GROUNDED

Tuesday, October 12, 2004 9:43 PM (P)

...which makes no sense because we see that she can take people over through by being seen on TV. If she's going to take over all the people of the world, she doesn't need to draw evil to LA. If anything she risked hampering her own creation by blotting out the Sun...

IDEFIX

Wednesday, October 13, 2004 5:38 AM (P)

maybe she's a stupid bitch with bad tactics.

Idefix

DIETCOKE

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 1:47 AM (P)

Hi Rhyme!

I liked the fact that I didn't know where they were going with Jasmine...I love surprises.... And can I just say that Angelus is one of the most evil villians, ever? I love that fact that he is all into emotional pain and hitting on people's fears and doubts. What could be more evil?

The only thing that bothered me about the season was Connor. He was just annoying for me. Kinda like Dawn was for most of Buffy.

Wesley really came into his own this year. A very talented man.

GROUNDED

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 10:26 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by dietcoke:
And can I just say that Angelus is one of the most evil villians, ever? I love that fact that he is all into emotional pain and hitting on people's fears and doubts. What could be more evil?

Indeed, Angelus is a great villain. However I don't think they quite captured him right in S4. He was far too blunt.

CRAZYDOG7

Saturday, November 27, 2004 6:03 AM (P)

Oh and the quote from season 2...

"Tell yeah what let me tourture you for a few unbearably long hours and find out if this is the lifestyle for you"

Isn't blunt?

Hell the first episode and the Angelus in control episodes are the only reason I ever
watch Season 4.

GROUNDED

Sunday, November 28, 2004 1:59 PM (P)

Not particularly, no. And remember that's from the episode Eternity in which the 'perfect happiness' is drug-induced.

Here are a bunch of Angelus lines from Soulless (transcript from buffy-vs-angel.com).

"Angel-schmangel."

"You’re just dying to know about the
big beastie."

"I bet he loves to rub that shiny bald head against her soft milky skin. Mmmm… good."

"Or here’s an oldy but a goody…"

"That twerp really gives me the creeps."

"Now there’s a rack to write home about."

"All that bumpin’ and grindin’"

"I hear you at night in your room with Gunn. The things you say… I’m lying there, listening, hands under the covers… I can’t help myself. It’s so… gripping."

"Did you bring me back a souvenir? Maybe a stray
baby toe?"

"I think I’ll start with the twins. I just love a woman with nice ripe thighs."

Does that sound anything at all like the Angelus they've described in the past? It doesn't to me. Look at the psychological torment he visited on Buffy and co in Buffy S2 - this kind of schoolboy baiting doesn't even come close.

CRAZYDOG7

Sunday, November 28, 2004 6:10 PM (P)

Well be that as it may, I still say that those episodes are the best part of season 4.

BRUISERSMOM

Sunday, December 5, 2004 1:23 AM (P)

Amen on the religious right rant. I was also raised Southern Baptist and have been turned off by their "you're either with us or are consumed by the devil" stance on things.

I read an editorial in the LA Times last week where a religious, pro-life woman talked about Rowe v. Wade taking away her rights and freedoms, which I thought was a very strange take on things because of Rowe v. Wade, she has the freedom choose to not have an abortion, without forcing the rest of the country to adopt her values but she sees her point of view as the only one that people can have.

BRUISERSMOM

Sunday, December 5, 2004 1:28 AM (P)

I was never as interested in Angel as Buffy and season 4 highlights why. Season 4 was too serious.

It doesn't suprise me that season 4 coincides with season 7 on Buffy, which was also too serious. One of the things that I liked about the earlier Buffy seasons was seriousness mixed in with campy fun. I think that season 3 was really the last season for that mix.

BRUISERSMOM

Sunday, December 5, 2004 1:29 AM (P)

Amen on the religious right rant. I was also raised Southern Baptist and as I grew up became more and more turned off by their "you're either with us or are consumed by the devil and need to either be brought over to our way of thinking or eliminated as threat to the kingdom of God" stance on things . Their idea of freedom is to have everyone think like they do and to have the government enshrine their values into law, so that nobody who disagrees with them can act out on their dissenting views without being punished for it. For example, with abortion, it's not good enough that they have the right to choose not to have an abortion based on their beliefs about life. Everyone who disagrees with them on this issue must be either brought over to their way of thinking or denied the right to have one .

GROUNDED

Sunday, December 5, 2004 12:19 PM (P)

I think you've posted in the wrong thread...

PHOENIXSHIP

Monday, December 6, 2004 8:06 PM (P)

Long thread.

To me the big story here (only briefly touched upon) was that Connor was never fooled by Jasmine. Since he never felt anything, he either didn't know the difference or didn't care about Jasmine's lack of beauty (to hime). Poor kid.

I don't understand the dislike some have taken to Connor. I loved his character - I always thought Vincent did a good job with the role, and I liked the way he spoke and interacted with the rest of the gang. Whiny? Not to me. He was just troubled, and in fact going slowly insane, where he ended up the the S4 closer.

"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"

RHYMEPHILE

Monday, December 6, 2004 8:17 PM (P)

I always liked the dark and evil version of Connor. I'm glad he never quite reconciled (in Season 4) with Angel until the catastrophic events of the end of the season with the shift in power that leads into Season 5.

I never thought he was whiny per se; I enjoyed how he often got the upper hand with the adults despite all that Angel did to try to help his son. And I always liked how Gunn was constantly annoyed with the kid. He seemed like he was wishing to give Connor one good smack in the head.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

GROUNDED

Monday, December 6, 2004 11:48 PM (P)

The biggest problem I have with Connor is that he's a continuity nightmare.

KREBSTAR5

Thursday, December 9, 2004 5:05 PM (P)

I too feel that S4 is the worst season of Angel. In fact, I think it is the worst season of either Angel or Buffy. I just felt as if someone took a bunch of characters I loved and just started writing in a manner that would have as much drama and action as they could get without any regard to the story. There was too much going on that it was difficult to care about Conner, Cordy, or even poor Wesley.

My sister and I always refer to this season as "the horror that is...angel season 4."

GROUNDED

Thursday, December 9, 2004 11:34 PM (P)

Yay! Someone else who hates it :) My whole family used to watch Angel together but after seeing the abomination that is 'Rain of Fire', I was the only one left to suffer through the rest of it. Having said that I would say Buffy S6 is worse, maybe even S7 too - I'd have to rewatch them to be sure but I'm not going to be doing that any time soon...

DIRTYBROWNCOAT

Friday, January 7, 2005 10:08 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
**BILE ALERT**
- Angelus as a character is ruined. Angel and Angelus should NOT be kept separate. They are intricately entwined personalities - the whole point of Angel's character is how close these two personas are to one another. That's what makes him dangerous for crying out loud! I also thought it was pretty weak how few people Angelus actually killed (if any - I have only watched these episodes once).

Right there with ya, brother.

One reason season 4 is my least favorite season out of the 5 (I still love it, but less than the other seasons) was Angelus. Two reasons:
-They constantly played up the "fact" that Angelus and Angel are completely seperate entities living in the same bodies - two personalities. Angel is not Angelus, and vice versa. If that's the case, then why does Angel feel bad about all of the things he did as Angelus? How many times have we seen Angel accused of doing something, and he says "I didn't have a choice, I didn't have a soul," instead of saying "Dude, it wasn't me, it was my split personality."
Angelus and Angel are two sides of the same coin. All Angelus is is Angel without a consience. When ensouled, Angel has a desire to do things like maim, torture, and kill, but his consience keeps him from doing it - likewise, his consience keeps him doing the right thing. It's not that cut and dry simple, but close enough.
-The way David Boreanez portrayed Angelus. Don't get me wrong, he did a good job...for a character that ISN'T Angelus. Take a look at Season 2 of Buffy, or the AtS season 1 episode Eternity to see what I mean. Angelus of season 4 was way too chatty, over-the-top. Angelus is supposed to be more of a quiet, contemplative guy, not a flashy, loud, annoying guy.

Another thing that bugged me about Season 4 was the story. It was going good, with the dark apocalypse, and the thing controlling Cordy, which, to me, suggested the First (which I think would have been a GREAT way to tie-in the shows without necassarily having to have an actual crossover). But...then we got Jasmine.
Now, the Jasmine episodes are good episodes, but the fact is, they came out of nowhere. Jasmine was in control of all the events of the season? Jasmine controlled the Beast, and Cordelia, and tried to recruit Angelus? The Beast and Angelus were crucial to Jasmine's plan, despite the fact that by the time it began to come to fruition, they were nowhere to be found? Everything that happened on the show was just to bring about Jasmine? ME can try to give me all of the "it was just birth pains" shite, but all of the apocalyptic stuff leading into the Jasmine arc made -no- sense whatsoever.

Simon: You...you came for us.
Mal: You're on my crew.
Simon: Right. I guess I just didn't...you don't even like me.
Mal: You're on my crew. Why we still talking about this?
-Safe

ZEEK

Monday, February 28, 2005 7:49 PM (P)

As much as I dislike this season I do have to say that Orpheus was one of my favorite episodes of Angel. (Just say it rerun on Fox this weekend) It had everything. Faith and Willow guest star. We see Wesley being all dark and willing to sacrifice Faith to stop Angelus. We get more flashback info about Angel's life. A fight between Angel and Angelus. The interactions between Willow and Wesley , Willow and Fred etc. were great scenes. Just a great episode. Sucked me right in.

GROUNDED

Tuesday, March 1, 2005 6:00 PM (P)

Huh. I thought it stank, but I could have been on a bitterness overload at the time.

SHANYU

Wednesday, March 2, 2005 6:22 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:

Personally, I think this season was a strong one, with a continuing arc that started, really, with Cordy's ascension in Season 3.

This be the first mistake (no offense) but the story acctualyl started in season 1. Seasons 1-3 are all leading up to season 4, Season 1 they meet Doyle, who has visions from the powers that be (one of which is jasmine... i think). Next Doyle transfers his visions to Cordy by kissing her right before he jumps to his heroic end. Season 2 and 3 Cordy has visions tells Angel Inc. where to go to find the helpless people. Then she starts to die because the human body cant withstand the visions so she decides to become part demon. Next Cordy is asscended so jasmine can put the final plans into place, Cordy then sleeps with conner impregnanting her with Jasmime.( this is in season 5 i think jasmine took control when cordy was asscended not sure though)

Quote:

I like how the entire season revolves around Cordy and the Beast (although we don't discover Cordy's duplicity until later).

Of course, the highlights of the entire season (for me) is the redemption of Wesley and the return of Angelus. I'm not sure if Angel's forgiving Wesley was all that convincing, though. Wes did save Angel's life when he didn't have to, but Angel was pretty riled for a while there. I wonder if he forgave him too easily.

Sometimes David Boreanaz can go over the top with Angelus, and there are moments of it during this season, but I really enjoy watching him portray Angelus. He does a great job of keeping Angel/Angelus completely separate, and gives Angelus a kind of wide-eyed wonder at being evil I find hilarious.

I'm sure I'm not alone in loving the episode "Awakening" when a shaman supposedly can extract Angel's soul and place it in a bottle; and "Spin the Bottle" when the gang reverts to teenagers; and "Apocalypse Nowish" with the shotgun-totin' Wesley (sorry, I love Wes). Ooh, and the return of Faith. Faith! This season (the good stuff) rocked.

I am soooo with u on this one that was a great season and sooooo well done but angel did forgive wes to quickely he took away angels only chance at a son EVER thast a pretty big thing.

Quote:

Okay, now what I didn't like: when the gang heads to Las Vegas to rescue Lorne from a casino. Gah, terrible. But the only really weak episode of the bunch until we get to...

Jasmine. When I first saw this, I was like, whaaaa? What the? It did surprise me that Connor and Angel bowed down when she was "born" and they didn't go after her. It was almost like a second season began right there. Weirdness. Of course, it is Gina Torres, but I didn't quite "get" where they were going with this. Angel shouldn't have killed her because she brought peace? Angel should have killed her because she was a demon? I never figured it out.

I have to disagree with you here, i acctually liked the las vegas episode, wasnt the best episode of teh season but it wasnt all that bad, kinda reminded me of "Jaynes Town" for some reason.
And angel didnt kill her because she brought peace or cause she was a demon he killed her because she took the human race as slaves (and demons too) and no one had any control, they should have the right to choose even if they make bad choices.

Quote:

And that whole arc sets up Connor's fall and the subsequent attaining of Wolfram & Hart, which in my opinion was a mistake, because now Angel and Co. had no evil "big brother" plotting over them. That leads into a fairly weak (IMO) Season 5 with stories that went nowhere and several really poor episodes because now Angel is in charge of the baddies.

Well i have to disagree on last time, I loved the last season the return of spike the great power angel had, the loss in faith of the shan shu (hmm sounds lil like shan yu dont it??) it was an awesome season the greatest ever made by joss though a lil rushed and he wasnt able to continue on and had to get rid of thing quickley(damn cancellation whats wrong wif the network)a

THIEFJEHAT

Thursday, April 7, 2005 5:02 PM (P)

I'm kinda sad I'm chiming in so late on this thread.

I posted a long rant on the Buffy board about how disappointed I was with season 7 Buffy. My opinion of season 4 Angel is very similar.

No one thing stands out as the single terrible mistake for angel season 4.(I maintain that the Kennedy/Willow relationship holds this distinction in Buffy 7) But as a whole, the entire story arc never made sense. It never gelled. To me it felt like a ship with no rudder, the story never progressed logically, you just kept jumping from one illogical plotline to another.

I mean lets think about it. Season 3 ended with Cordy assending. That was awsome. I liked it. But then she just comes back in S4. There's no reason offered. I initally thought that TPTB were punishing her for somehow influencing Angel's slot machine win in vegas, which would have made some sort of sense, but in the end no real reason was offered. And she was now possessed too. Again, flimsy reasons why.

Jasmine? When I saw this I was like whaaaa....? Come on...this is trash sci-fi. If I wanted trash I'd watch the 70's Battlestar Galactia reruns on the sci-fi channel(not knocking the new show, it's alright) The whole entire idea was just...silly. And again, illogical. I understand that Gina had a contract to fulfill as did Nathan. But in each case it was clear that writers just pulled characters out of the air to give them screentime. The entire time you watch you're not really suspending your disbelief. It just feels forced. Then just like Caleb in S7 buffy, once the contracted # of episodes is reached the writers dispose of the character. I feel betrayed when I consider this.

I was annoyed that Skip the demon was actually evil. It was so much better that this monster-ish guy actually served powers of good..it was just better storytelling. When we got the good/evil switcheroo it became trash writing, no surprises and no cool juxtapositions.

Connor. The most poorly developed character I've seen in awhile. This statement has utterly nothing to do with his foolish character behavior...I hated Kennedy too in S7 Buffy but have since stated that it's not for me to be upset at a show just because a character is grating. Connor was to be to AtS what Dawn was in BtVS. Dawn was developed correctly. Connor was a total waste. You never felt tied to him. When he suffered the memory wipe at the end I just felt like Angel writers had spent an entire season wasting my time and that they owed me something. I sensed that they tried to patch this up in S5, maybe because so many people were upset at the character. But again I'm not upset at the behavior...I'm upset about the development.

Gwen. What was the point here? Just side story? I guess I can swallow a side trek occasionally.

The beast. Worst Villian in the buffyverse. I'm so weary of invincible, unstoppable enemies. They just make everything feel fake and forced.

Lorne was totally underused. Just like spike in season 7 buffy. Lorne is a character that adds value to every scene he's in. He was needed in so many scenes I can't even begin to count and I won't.

There are a few redeaming qualities about the season. Some folks posted on this thread that they hated the Wes/Lilah sex scenes and his new attraction to handguns. Honestly I very much liked this Wesley. Man just think of how developed he has become since buffy season 3. I love good character development. I liked Angel's soul in the bottle. There were other tidbits scattered throughout too.

I need to qualify this season though. This was all being shot the same time Season 7 buffy was in production and also Firefly. It's clear to me that Joss had too much on his plate at once. I felt terrible watching season 7 buffy. Buffy was the show that I loved. Angel as a spin off didn't hurt as much but it still stung. However, when I consider what we all got out of it...Firefly...well perhaps it was worth it. I like to think Joss drained all the energy out of Angel 4 and buffy 7 and poured i

GROUNDED

Thursday, April 7, 2005 6:02 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by thiefjehat:
Lorne was totally underused. Just like spike in season 7 buffy. Lorne is a character that adds value to every scene he's in. He was needed in so many scenes I can't even begin to count and I won't.

Yeah this was a big one for me. When he was originally introduced, he was used to great effect, even though he wasn't in every episode. Once they brought him in full time they didn't seem willing to give him a solid storyline of his own and ended up letting him drift on in the background. I recently caught some repeats of S5 and totally forgot about some of the eps where he was completely cut out except a token couple of lines.

Although I agree with your Connor rant I'd have to say I don't think Dawn was developed at all correctly. She was on the show three years and did practically nothing.

DIETCOKE

Wednesday, April 20, 2005 8:21 PM (P)

I agree with the Conner and Dawn annoying thing, but I think they were supposed to be annoying. They annoyed the other characters on the shows and we were just feeling what they were feeling. I think it was ment to be!

CAPTAINCDC

Friday, June 24, 2005 9:10 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by dietcoke:
I agree with the Conner and Dawn annoying thing, but I think they were supposed to be annoying. They annoyed the other characters on the shows and we were just feeling what they were feeling. I think it was ment to be!

I agree. The way the Connor character was written he was supposed to be annoying. He had been through some bad sh*t and was grappling with tough choices. He had been raised to hate his real father by a mad genius bent on revenge. Then when he finally meets his father and the rest of the gang, he was confronted with conflicting information. What he had been raised to think and what he was witnessing with his own eyes. Add that to a mind that is also struggling with adolescence in a strange new world and you get a kid who makes some bad and yes sometimes annoying choices.

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The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason!

GROUNDED

Friday, June 24, 2005 9:53 PM (P)

His annoyingness (!) doesn't really bother me - it's the fact that his character is totally changed between the end of S3 and the start of S4 without enough justification. Go rewatch Brave New World - S4 would have been brilliant if they'd stuck to the character's roots.

CAPTAINCDC

Saturday, June 25, 2005 2:40 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
His annoyingness (!) doesn't really bother me - it's the fact that his character is totally changed between the end of S3 and the start of S4 without enough justification. Go rewatch Brave New World - S4 would have been brilliant if they'd stuck to the character's roots.

I'm just spitballing here, but don't you think that the way season 3 ended would have a pretty profound impact on Connor and his behavior. Connor was led to believe that Angel had killed the man that raised him. He sought revenge just like he was raised to do, and committed a vicious act. All summer he had been consumed by his efforts to keep Fred and Gunn from finding out what he had done to Angel.

I assume you were talking about A New World from S3, the ep where Connor came back to this dimension. If so, are you saying they should have kept Connor more as a feral warrior? Do you think they tried to domesticate him too much?

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The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason!

GROUNDED

Saturday, June 25, 2005 4:41 PM (P)

I'm saying that they played with his character too much without actually thinking about his background. The most profound influence on him would be the fact that Holtz raised him, and is presumably the only human he's ever known until he gets back in BNW. I would have expected Holtz to have raised Connor in the same way he raised his own children--probably with great emphasis on the Bible. I think it would have made Connor far more interesting if they'd played off the desire for vengeance by giving him a conscience rooted in religion. Instead, within about 4 eps after BNW, they turned into the typical horny teenager who hates his father. What a waste.

CAPTAINCDC

Saturday, June 25, 2005 5:25 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
I'm saying that they played with his character too much without actually thinking about his background. The most profound influence on him would be the fact that Holtz raised him, and is presumably the only human he's ever known until he gets back in BNW. I would have expected Holtz to have raised Connor in the same way he raised his own children--probably with great emphasis on the Bible. I think it would have made Connor far more interesting if they'd played off the desire for vengeance by giving him a conscience rooted in religion. Instead, within about 4 eps after BNW, they turned into the typical horny teenager who hates his father. What a waste.

I hear what you are saying. And though Connor was not spouting bible thumping rhetoric, he did kind of enact the eye for an eye philosophy of revenge by sinking Angel believing he had killed Holtz. Having said that, I think the path the writers chose for Connor was not an unrealistic one. After all he was a teenage boy whose hormones were practically bouncing off the walls. All of a sudden he was confronted with women being around, which I assume he had only heard about. We have our formative years to learn and experiment and come to terms with our sexuality. With Connor it was thrust upon him all at once. If I was in Connor's place, I would probably have been crazy about Cordelia too.

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The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason!