Firefly Music Videos - Download Now

POSTED BY: Succatash
UPDATED: Thursday, December 4, 2003 00:31
VIEWED: 56970
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She resolved the situation successfully with her ISP and keep her domain running, because she did nothing wrong, unlike Succatash.

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So she was/is not hosting copyrighted material for which she does not have expressed permission to do so?

What I do not understand is the refusal for vidder so see that what they are doing is illegal and to accept that. One moment you are defending your work and the other you are burying it in the backyard. (and I know we will never agree on this, I just find it strange)

Actually I have thought about it and think I know why I still feel vidders are not entitled to ownership. I think it has to do with me being a student and thinking about ownership as plagerism. To point out DEBCHAN's arguement that the two originals are not hers but the final product is, I would argue that two thesi (sp?) (plural of thesis) I did not write, but cut and pasted together with no original imput, besides deciding which sentences went where, would not be acceptable as being my own creation, rather I would be expelled. I guess I just see intellecutal work as being more important than cutting and pasting. (I'm rambling and yes I know viding is more than cutting and pasting)

"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Out of faint curiosity, where is this FF community? is it here on Fireflyfans.net? On the official Firefly boards? Because I'm really active in FF and the general consensus wherever I look is waaay on the side of the vidders keeping control of their works.

So I'm just curious.

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> As I understand it, someone created something (using material created by others, but that doesn't matter, it's still hard work). Someone else took it. The first person asked "Please don't do that." The second person said "Screw you. You suck. I'll do what I want."

> Is that about it?

Yep, that about sums up Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday.

Thanks for posting, TallGuy.

Elke

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> There is never an excuse for a fan-artist to get upset over the distribution of thier art.

That is so far from being correct that I don't even know where to begin teaching you anything.

Do you write? Vid? Draw? Paint? Sculpt? Because I'm having a really hard time believing that anyone who actually creates this could take the stance you're presenting.

And it's not about getting recognition. As has been said before in either this thread or the other related one on these boards, it's about vidder self-preservation, keeping the liberty to continue to make vids.

If you've read both of these threads and you still don't understand that, TragicStory, then I don't think anything I say further, no matter how sensible, simplified, rational or polite I might be, will convince you otherwise.

By your posts here, you now share the blame for forcing vidders and other fannish creative artists underground, off the net, and away from Firefly.

Elke

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Would be because you are wrong. A lawerly type person has assured me that:

(a) violation of copyright is not theft. Theft has a very specific legal meaning and copyright violation isn't it. Therefore, to argue that fans are 'stealing' from TPTB is, quite simply, wrong in law.

(b) that each fan-vidder, fanfiction writer, fan-artist etc who produces a new derivative work also holds the copyright in that work. They probably can't exploit that copyright but it doesn't stop it from existing.

If you would like to dispute this, I'd be interested in seeing your reasonings, other than 'It is on my computer.'

All these things have been stated time after time, and it would see that 'your' community simply doesn't want to look at the facts as they are listed. Time and again these things have been said and ignored. Look upward at the post on the 'Berne Convention'.

I'm sorry if you don't want to accept that you don't own everything on your computer, but what you are saying is akin to sitting in a chair in MY house and declaring it is yours because you are sitting in it.

And thank you to the person above for inviting us out of this community because we are new, but it was my understand that YOU don't own THIS. If and when the owners ask me to leave, I will be happy to do so.

Unlike some people.

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> You "vidders" have screwed up because you are more worried about your fame and personal glory then you are saving Firefly.

Once again, Succatash, you are completely and utterly missing the point.

You are confusing self-preservation with fame. You are confusing artistic expression with a save-the-show campaign. And frankly, you've been downright insulting to me and others while you're at it.

I've read back over these two threads very carefully, and I've confirmed something I noticed before and didn't want to comment on... but now I'm thinking it ought to be said out in the open:
When you thought I was a man, you were willing to insult my intelligence. When you thought I was a woman, suddenly you began insulting my weight, my sex life, my snack foods of choice. Bottom line on that? I think you're unwilling to admit in a public forum that you might be wrong and a woman might be right. You are unwilling to admit that any women might know more about fannish culture and the production of artistic works in your favorite show's fandom than you do.

Personally, I hope that every single Firefly fansite that is brought down by choice of its maintainers is replaced with a simple text page pointing right back to this thread and the other one here, because it's blazingly clear that no fannish creation is safe from people like you.

I hope that every single site that gets password protected, every single piece of fannish art that's not shared openly by its creator, has a big sign on the splash page for the restricted site saying "People like Succatash made this restriction necessary, because he has no respect whatsoever for artists or other fans."

Neither you nor ManiacNumberOne has ever answered a single question I posed in my posts here. You've been insulting in nearly every response to every person posting whom you assume is a woman and who disagrees with you. From what I've seen of your posts, I don't think you'll ever understand what you're really doing here, what you're accomplishing in the wider context of fannish culture.

You are driving Firefly fandom and vidding in general underground, if not killing it outright... because you can't see beyond yourself to any larger picture or consequences.

If this makes you happy, go right ahead and continue posting bile-filled rants and insults, threats to report fannish artists to any of their ISPs or any of the copyright holders of the show. Go right ahead convincing the majority of the people reading this discussion board that you are a self-centered egotistical fool who is unwilling to educate himself or listen to others when they try to present real information. Go right ahead betraying the base of fannish creators who would have been perfectly willing to be the public relations people for your precious campaign to save your favorite show had you shown one ounce of clue or respect for their work. Go right ahead. Right now I'm seeing you as one step below pond scum on the evolutionary ladder, and I hope I never encounter anyone like you in any other fandom.

Elke

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Originally posted by elketanzer:
> There is never an excuse for a fan-artist to get upset over the distribution of thier art.

That is so far from being correct that I don't even know where to begin teaching you anything.

Do you write? Vid? Draw? Paint? Sculpt? Because I'm having a really hard time believing that anyone who actually creates this could take the stance you're presenting.

And it's not about getting recognition. As has been said before in either this thread or the other related one on these boards, it's about vidder self-preservation, keeping the liberty to continue to make vids.

If you've read both of these threads and you still don't understand that, TragicStory, then I don't think anything I say further, no matter how sensible, simplified, rational or polite I might be, will convince you otherwise.

By your posts here, you now share the blame for forcing vidders and other fannish creative artists underground, off the net, and away from Firefly.

Elke

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SHOW ME SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN ARRESTED FOR FANNING ANYTHING LET ALONE FIREFLY. THEN I WILL BELIEVE THAT IT IS FOR SELF PRESERVATION.

And yes, I have done vids and I have no clue where they are now because I don't care who sees them. I don't host them and REALLY doubt anyone could trace it to me, let alone PROVE I created it. Fanning can survive by hosting it on a p2p program for 3 days then erasing it off your computer. If it is good it gets circulated, if not, it doesnt.

Unless you are dumb enough to host your own stuff on the internet or put your real name and social security # in the vid itself, the chances of you getting caught are very slim to none. Not to mention the fact that no one would press charges even if they did catch you. Civil court maybe, doubtful, but maybe.

My posts supports the sharing of all fan-stuff. I am not the ones running for the hills pulling stuff off the internet because I am afraid of a non existant menace. Niether is saccutash. Aparently the true menace is the mob which is after us for having different views.

I am also not the idiot who walked up and handed someone a VCD so I would appreciate it if you didn't treat me as if I were.


"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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SHOW ME SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN ARRESTED FOR FANNING ANYTHING LET ALONE FIREFLY. THEN I WILL BELIEVE THAT IT IS FOR SELF PRESERVATION.

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They don't. They get cease and desist letters and dozens of people are forced to take their sites offline.

Don't believe me? Ask X-Files, Buffy, any Anne Rice fansite, to name a few. It's not about getting arrested, it is about getting BUSTED, which isn't the same.

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Here you go:

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html



"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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so in short if they were to put it on a p2p or server/client program then it would not happen. Problem solved.

"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Aparently the true menace is the mob which is after us for having different views.

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I'd also like to point out that by hosting other people's vids when they ask you NOT to is forcing your 'different views' on other people, which is exactly what you are excusing the 'mob' of doing.

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TRAGICSTORY said:

"and yes, I have done vids and I have no clue where they are now because I don't care who sees them."

Obviously everyone isn't you, and you have failed to create a convincing argument why they should adopt your stance.

And Debchan creates the vids I want to see. Haven't heard of you.

Not insulting. Just the truth.

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I'd also like to point out that by hosting other people's vids when they ask you NOT to is forcing your 'different views' on other people, which is exactly what you are excusing the 'mob' of doing.

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very true. I never host anything where people I don't know can get at it, but I feel that he did it with good intentions. BTW have we hit 100 posts yet?

"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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TragicStory, I'm taking a deep, deep breath here... honest question time: what is your fannish background? Anime? RPG? Because you obviously are stating your point with conviction, which you say is based on experience.

I am not trying to invalidate that experience... I am now honestly curious what fannish, or fanning, community is the way you say it is.

Please realize that others have not had it as easy. Please read over http://www.bringers.org.uk/ for some of the horror stories.




Elke

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My background is Anime. I have done some AMV's registered at www.animemusicvideos.com, I have hosted an anime server on hotline for about 2-3 years. The Hotline Anime community is the community that I most often afiliate myself with, though I have a passing familiarity with IRC. As I have posted before, we obviously have different ways of seeing and doing things.

Please don't get upset, we are merely arguing because can not relate to each other yet.

ACTUALLY WE DO HAVE SOMETHING WE CAN RELATE TO:
THE VILENESS OF FOX!

"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Originally posted by Sarahetc:

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And as much as I'd like to see a shiny fuzzy community of all Firefly fans everywhere, I'll stick with this one and you stick with yours

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Hmm yeah, but yours is the one ripping mine off and behaving like asshats.

But fine, fine. Keep your FF community of 3. Have fun. I'll be over here with the Browncoats.

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Originally posted by TragicStory:
SHOW ME SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN ARRESTED FOR FANNING ANYTHING LET ALONE FIREFLY. THEN I WILL BELIEVE THAT IT IS FOR SELF PRESERVATION.

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I don't know anyone whp's been *arrested*, but I do know a vidder who hosted multiple (over 600) fannish vids on her private server, that was visited by legal representatives of the RIAA. They looked up her ISP, subpoenaed her home address, and went to her house. They ordered her to remove all materials from her website, confiscated copies of VCDs, DVDs, VHS tapes of the vids she had. That was HER property, except it wasn't, and they took it away. They left her the server that she had paid a fair sum of money for, and left her computer, but they did make her sign the Cease & Desist order so that if she ever does put anything available - either on a website, or through P2P network - she will then be arrested, pay fines, etc.

Granted this will probably not happen to a person who has one or two little vids. But I pay a couple of hundred dollars a year for my webspace -if it gets yanked away from me, I'm out that money with nothing to show for it. I may not get actually arrested, but I could be fined, and have property confiscated.

So don't tell me that I'm being overly paranoid. I DO know people that have gotten C&D letters *and* have been physically visited by lawyers.

We don't make up this stuff just to get everyone all excited, you know.

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Originally posted by TragicStory:
Here you go:

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

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I find it really interesting that you posted this - especially this part:

"It's up to the owner to decide if they want the free ads or not. If they want them, they will be sure to contact you. Don't rationalize whether it hurts the owner or not, ask them. Usually that's not too hard to do. Time past, ClariNet published the very funny Dave Barry column to a large and appreciative Usenet audience for a fee, but some person didn't ask, and forwarded it to a mailing list, got caught, and the newspaper chain that employs Dave Barry pulled the column from the net, pissing off everybody who enjoyed it. Even if you can't think of how the author or owner gets hurt, think about the fact that piracy on the net hurts everybody who wants a chance to use this wonderful new technology to do more than read other people's flamewars."

Hmmm. Probably not the section you wanted to call attention to, but, effectively states what everyone here has been trying to say. Disrespecting the wishes of the artists causes art to disappear. Seems like this should not be a difficult concept to grasp.

Forget the ridiculous arguements about copyright law, blah blah ... it's not ABOUT that. It's about respecting your fellow fan - not because you are legally bound to, but because it's just good manners.

All this argument about "law" can go round and round for days (and has) and get nowhere. The point is, Do Unto Others, and all that sort of thing. Ask first, and if denied, be big about it and don't go against the wishes of your fellow fan.

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Originally posted by TragicStory:
My background is Anime. I have done some AMV's registered at www.animemusicvideos.com, I have hosted an anime server on hotline for about 2-3 years. The Hotline Anime community is the community that I most often afiliate myself with, though I have a passing familiarity with IRC. As I have posted before, we obviously have different ways of seeing and doing things.

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Ahhhh, suddenly things make sense. I've been in both anime communities and regular slash ones and things are completely different between the two.

Believe me, I have seen fandoms literally ripped from the web by The Powers That Be, and not because anyone has even given a CD to one of the actors. Sometimes, the Powers decide it has gone too far and they shut down the works.

That is what has everyone so worked up. Too much unknowing exposure can ruin an entire fandom and drive it completely underground. We don't want to have to go there, and I also suppose I just can't understand the various insults and whatnot being thrown around. Even in my anime communities, people asked me before hosting my stories and respected my wishes if I said 'No.'

It hurts to be treated so rudely and people often lash out in hurt retaliation. There are people behind these names, everyone, and we Twinkie Eating Bitches don't deserve those insults, not from someone who is supposed to be fun-loving and nice.

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TragicStory, thank you.

My intention was not to personally insult you. I apologize if I did. Honestly, I am simply very frustrated by dealing with Succatash, and I've posted so much here that has not been read by ManiacNumberOne and Succatash that I'm more inclined to assume that folks just joining in now haven't read all of my previous (and slightly calmer) posts, and are ignoring completely all of the information I and others have provided and linked to.

Anime fandom is very different from live-action US media fandom... by which I mean TV shows and movies. A vidder acquaintance of mine explained that difference to me sometime in the wee hours of Friday/Saturday, and I'm really happy that anime fandom is so much more open than media fandom.

Please believe me when I say that the copyright holders, trademark holders, and ISPs that might be involved in infringment and property rights grey areas in media fandom have a history of being much more brutal to fans and fandoms than anime copyright holders and trademark holders. The Bringers site has a relatively small number of examples, but their collection is growing as fans from more fandoms chime in.

I really am disappointed that really, all of this could have been averted had the vidders been asked ahead of time and their requests listened to. We could have all been civil and made new friends. As it is, everthing's a mess and Firefly fandom is getting a really horrible reputation among vidders, as well as some writers and other artists. That's a pity, because Firefly really is a cool show.

Elke

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Originally posted by elketanzer:

I've read back over these two threads very carefully, and I've confirmed something I noticed before and didn't want to comment on... but now I'm thinking it ought to be said out in the open:
When you thought I was a man, you were willing to insult my intelligence. When you thought I was a woman, suddenly you began insulting my weight, my sex life, my snack foods of choice. Bottom line on that? I think you're unwilling to admit in a public forum that you might be wrong and a woman might be right. You are unwilling to admit that any women might know more about fannish culture and the production of artistic works in your favorite show's fandom than you do.

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God, did you hit that one on the head. :) But more than that - these guys are trolls. Kicking back in an easy chair at home, pushing all the hot buttons
and ignoring all reason while secretly enjoying the hell out of this because this is the first time women have paid attention to them in five years.

Human nature. Heh. Wish I could squish them.

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Originally posted by TragicStory:
My background is Anime. I have done some AMV's registered at www.animemusicvideos.com, I have hosted an anime server on hotline for about 2-3 years. The Hotline Anime community is the community that I most often afiliate myself with, though I have a passing familiarity with IRC. As I have posted before, we obviously have different ways of seeing and doing things.

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AHA, this explains a lot - Anime fandom is a lot free-er and looser with their vids. Any Kazaa search will tell you that - you'll see literally hundreds of Anime vids on P2P.

But non-Anime vidders have very different opinions on the matter and the Anime community has a very different set of rules and standards - the vidder egroup has had this discussion before, and it's been talked about at cons. Which are different than Anime cons, which often have huge vid contests, and thing like that. Anime is a whole different world, in many ways, from non-Anime vidding.

Now I see why we are talking in circles - we are comparing apples to oranges.

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I don't know anyone whp's been *arrested*, but I do know a vidder who hosted multiple (over 600) fannish vids on her private server, that was visited by legal representatives of the RIAA.

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Well to start, 600 is an excessive number of file to host and expect to fly below the radar.

Secondly, RIAA is just proof that Satan is alive and well. BTW, did you read about the 4 college kids they are suing? Its unbelievable.


"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Now I see why we are talking in circles - we are comparing apples to oranges.

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Shiny! Now if you will still agree that Fox is evil, I shall promptly buy you a beer!

"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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My little gift to all yee who refuse to let things go-- even though the point it lost, nothing is being accomplished and your arguments are doing little more than beating the proverbial dead horse, and making the high blood pressure statistics rise.

1.) A cup of tea with honey and some quiet Mozart. I suggest the Blue Danube Waltz.

2.) A moments reflection on how trivial this is. (Yeah, I know everyone’s heard this one from mom-- “Think of all the starving people in Ethiopia! Do you think they care about who get to sit in that seat, if she poked you, or all those silly vid’s the neighborhood kids argue about???”)

3.) A smile. Stop gnashing your teeth and enjoy life, it ain’t that long folks.

4.) A kick in the ass and a “shut the hell up already people!”

**Minute outburst, please refer back to #3.**

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Originally posted by TragicStory:
Shiny! Now if you will still agree that Fox is evil, I shall promptly buy you a beer!

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Well. On my Firefly vid page (now defunct, thanks to all of this and the VCD incident) I had a long explanation about the evils of Fox - how they not only cancel good shows, but are widely known to come down hard on online fans of those shows (Buffy, X-Files, to name the most recent victims). I asked people who downloaded and watched the vids please to not distribute, link to, or mirror them without my express permission, and I had my email addy right there for easy contact.

All of which was ignored, my vid was handed to Nate Fillion and very nearly handed to Joss himself, and now my vids, including Hallelujah (the FF vid) and that long "how Fox sucks" explanation, are gone.

So if you want me to agree that Fox is evil, there's not question about that. But you can keep your beer money, thanks anyway. Have one for me.

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Well, I agree that Fox is dopey for taking good shows off the air, and that they're a menace to good fun for doing what their lawyers have done to creative fans.

TragicStory, maybe we have some common ground after all. After all, I like beer, and I honestly do hate Twinkies.

Have I mentioned that I also have some experience in a couple of anime fandoms? Not with vids much, but in the online community of writers... fanfic and drawings. If you tell me that you're the vidder that created Happiness Hotel in Ranma 1/2, I'll buy you a beer.

Elke

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So after 100+ posts, I have new friends and realize that things are completly different on the American side of things. So this is when I apologize for my ignorance and am very glad someone had the insight to ask where I was coming from. So now that everyone is no longer mad at me I think I will go to bed.

BTW, if you would like a detailed account of the Hotline Anime community let me know as I wrote a rather large paper on it. (which you can do whatever you want with once you get it )

"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Originally posted by elketanzer:
Please realize that others have not had it as easy. Please read over http://www.bringers.org.uk/ for some of the horror stories.

Elke

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Elke - don't forget, http://chillingeffects.org - where the whole concept of C&D letters is explained quite well, and examples are posted.

So you can see exactly what happens when TPTB come after a fan site. There are also discussions there of copyright law as it relates to fannish enterprise - many of the links bandied about in the last few days have not been fandom specific.

If nothing else, this has at least been educational, for the people willing to listen.

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What are they suing them for? (Yeah, I'm a bit behind here)

Johnny H.-
"How'd you like a bite outta this green apple, America?"

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Originally posted by TragicStory:
So after 100+ posts, I have new friends and realize that things are completly different on the American side of things. So this is when I apologize for my ignorance and am very glad someone had the insight to ask where I was coming from. So now that everyone is no longer mad at me I think I will go to bed.

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Oh! And you are not in the US! This also explains a lot - copyright law over here is MUCH different than across the pond. (Either pond)

I have friends who host their vids on "offshore" servers so as to skirt around the RIAA, MPIAA, and other U.S. agencies that might otherwise come after them.

Sometimes we forget fandom is an international enterprise and the rules are different.

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Originally posted by Kaythryn:
A moments reflection on how trivial this is.

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You only think it's trivial because it hasn't happened to you personally. I certainly don't find what happened to me to be trivial at all - especially since, now following what happened to Nia, I've got a phone call from my ISP as well.(Luckily, I had already taken everything down, so I didn't lose my site.)

You can always start another thread, and avoid reading this one :) I say that with respect, too, not snarkiness, just so you know.

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Originally posted by TragicStory:
So now that everyone is no longer mad at me I think I will go to bed

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Hold on there.

My fandom is in shreds, and a whole HELL of a lot of Firefly fannish stuff that I enjoyed on the internet is gone for good. You contributed to that, albeit not as much as succatash and maniacnumberone and some others.

So you'll forgive me if I don't hold any parties just yet.

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Hello, JusticeMcNasty...

I'd not heard of the RIAA/four college students nightmare before, but I just googled for "riaa sues college students" and came up with over a thousand hits.

Looks like RIAA says they were sharing 2.5 million files on their "local area Napster networks". Scary, scary stuff.

Elke

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*Hastily deletes multitude of files while whistling and has shifty eyes*

No, but thanks for the info. If anyone cares, I'm still gonna share my FF vid. It's called 'Hero' and I'm usually on Kazaa, so if you want.

Johnny H.-
"How'd you like a bite outta this green apple, America?"

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Well, probably a bit late for me to say this, but please be civil to one another when the discussions get heated.

FWIW, as someone who runs a fansite, I walk a fine line when it comes to the whole copyright issue. I'm not much of a policymaker, or follower, for that matter. But I do have 3 simple rules that I go by as far as this website is concerned.

1. If I didn't create it, it's not mine.
2. If it's not mine, I need permission.
3. If I don't have permission (because sometimes it just takes forever to get it or not able to), I have to remove the item when the person who created it asks me to.

It's just commonsense. So far things have worked out here on FIREFLYFANS.NET by following those three simple rules and I am able to operate without restrictions. It's a win-win situation, which is how things should be for all of us.

Just my thoughts.

In any case, please be civil.

Thanks,
Haken

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Quote:

---

Posted by bonibaru:

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kaythryn:
A moments reflection on how trivial this is.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You only think it's trivial because it hasn't happened to you personally. I certainly don't find what happened to me to be trivial at all - especially since, now following what happened to Nia, I've got a phone call from my ISP as well.(Luckily, I had already taken everything down, so I didn't lose my site.)

You can always start another thread, and avoid reading this one :) I say that with respect, too, not snarkiness, just so you know.

---

Please tell me you're not serious.

You haven’t lost a family member, or your house, or your dog, or a limb because of this... you got a call. (I know what I just said sounded snarky, but I mean it.)

By the way, do you think that maybe it we had all minded our own business and let Nia and Manic handle this themselves like the big kids they are, maybe the rest of the vidder community wouldn’t be getting so many nasty calls?

Come on, there are so many other thing happening in the world. --I don't mean that in the sense that there are so many other things we should spend out time fretting over, but things we should enjoy.-- Silly fun things, the color blue, Sean Maher, and all things Firefly.

Really, I think we've all heard about all there is to say on this subject-- something like 130 posts from each side and a few in between. Anything we say now is just repeated from the beginning.

We get it.

Let me repeat-- 130 posts, novel length…yeah, we get it.

Now matter how much each side argues, some people are not going to change their minds. And since this topic isn't about anything that has to do with loss of limb or loss of dog, I think we can all let it go now.

Look at me here, you got me preaching to let it go and see, I’m not. Wait….now I am…poof, it’s gone.

-----I remembered another "by the way"-- I can't post a new thread for some reason...so I'm just going to start hijacking everyone else’s.


-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Quote:

---

Please tell me you're not serious.

You haven’t lost a family member, or your house, or your dog, or a limb because of this... you got a call. (I know what I just said sounded snarky, but I mean it.)

By the way, do you think that maybe it we had all minded our own business and let Nia and Manic handle this themselves like the big kids they are, maybe the rest of the vidder community wouldn’t be getting so many nasty calls?

---

Please tell me YOU'RE not serious. It's being cavalier about other people's property like this that caused the scuffle to begin with.

And this argument was NEVER just between two people, since more than one person had their vids handed over to TPTB.

I do agree that this battle has been done to death, but you certainly could have chosen a less antagonistic way of saying it. If I got a phone call from my ISP I'd be freaking out too. That's several hundred dollars down the tube if they decide you are violating their TOS. Are YOU going to replace that money, since it's really no big deal?

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Aw crap. I’d just like to mention I’ve got a history paper due in a few hours so I think is going to have to be the condensed version.

I apologize if you took my words as being rude. I’m not trying to be confrontational, or mean, or disrespectful of peoples feeling and the such. I don’t know what to say that won’t be taken as sarcastic so please just read over what I had written and picture me with a happy face. Also, I don’t think your quoting did me justice, you left out the great Ethiopia part, so here I’ll quote myself-

Quote:

---

2.) A moments reflection on how trivial this is. (Yeah, I know everyone’s heard this one from mom-- “Think of all the starving people in Ethiopia! Do you think they care about who get to sit in that seat, if she poked you, or all those silly vid’s the neighborhood kids argue about???”)

3.) A smile. Stop gnashing your teeth and enjoy life, it ain’t that long folks…

Come on, there are so many other thing happening in the world. --I don't mean that in the sense that there are so many other things we should spend out time fretting over, but things we should enjoy.-- Silly fun things, the color blue, Sean Maher, and all things Firefly.

---

My main point is that this argument is not doing anything but allowing us to bicker. Why continue our angry posts when we could just let this all be handled between the vidder and the “thief” in question. And as I’ve been corrected, I don’t just mean Nia and Manic. I’m just trying to put this into perspective. I’m not saying it doesn’t matter, but I really don’t see how this is worse than losing your dog.

Quote:

---

If I got a phone call from my ISP I'd be freaking out too. That's several hundred dollars down the tube if they decide you are violating their TOS. Are YOU going to replace that money, since it's really no big deal?

---

For one, if it was a risk you were unwilling to…uh…risk then you shouldn’t of posted your work, or you should of solidly protected it somehow. Come one, I’m sure this isn’t the first time in vid history that someone downloaded some one else’s work and posted it elsewhere. It can’t be a new thing.

Secondly, no, I’m not going to pay because someone took your work that you put up. If I leave my big screen TV in my front yard for all the neighborhood kids to watch, and it gets stolen, I think I’d be my fault, and the thief. Boy, did I mention I’m bad at metaphors? I’m sure someone gets the gist of what I was shooting for there though.

P.s. Love the BIG words. Added an emphasis that was all about ME.




-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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I actually think that a large part of this conflict is cultural. A friend of mine once told me that most fandoms reflect the shows they like. X-Files fans tend to be paranoid. Babylon 5 fans are rather factious. And Star Trek folks more or less get along and work together well. From what I've seen of Firefly, some fans seem to think of fandom as the Old West where no rules should apply to them and they can do whatever they want.

This is more or less true. After all, we don't really have very many ways of enforcing rules so it does come down to rules of etiquette or codes of honor - most of which probably evolved primarily out of Trek.

The second cultural difference is in the way people post. LJC's post that so instantly offended Maniac to me looked like a polite, if somewhat emphatic, warning that what he was doing might be looked upon unfavorably by others. He saw the phrase "content theft" and was livid, though he did do the right thing which was to contact the vidder to get permission. When that was denied, he took it off. He grumbled about it but as far as I'm concerned, grumbling is allowed.

Unfortunately, here is where we hit cultural difference #3 - male/female. Succatash seemed to be very upset that his buddy was being picked on by a bunch of girls and felt the need to defend him. Some of the philosophical points he made might have some merit (though I don't really agree with most and don't think the others really applied to the situation.) Unfortunately, he couldn't seem to make his points without thowing out some meaningless insult. He was more or less civil to Elke until he realized she was female at which point we got the now famous "fat chicks waving their Twinkies whining, 'I've got to be me!'" I don't say this to insult him. I am simply trying to figure this out. But, I don't think Succatash is used to dealing with women. You cannot a thing to say in front of a large group of women and expect to be persuasive. (By this point, this discussion had been noticed by a lot of vidders and in case you didn't know, vidders tend to be female.) Most people know that. It is not simply an etiquette thing. It is a survival thing. It's possible that had he not used that particular turn of phrase, his site would not have been shut down so quickly (Not 100% sure of the timing, though.) It certainly cut off most of the sympathy he might have gotten afterward.

Personally, I think the website shutdown, justifiable or not, was a little premature and counterproductive. The pro-vidder types had tried appealing to his reason, manners, and compassion and failed miserably, but had not really tried diplomacy. Maybe we could have tried offering him something in exchange for taking the vid down which could have avoided the TOS war. (As a rather hawkish Conservative Republican, it's really weird to watch this argument coming off my keyboard. Sigh.)

I thank those of you on both sides of this dicussion/argument/war who have posted legal tidbits. As a paranoid, anxiety-ridden vidder myself, it is reassuring to know that some of my worst fears may be unfounded. Irrational fears, however, are not any less real to the person bearing them than rational fears are. Even if you think that Nia's fears were irrational, that does not make it OK for Succatash to torment her with them.

I have more to say but I have an appointment with my shrink in the morning and should probably be awake. I think I will stop waving my Twinkie for now, put in my mouthguard so I won't grind my teeth all night, take my Celexa and go to bed.

Goodnight.

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MESSAGE TO MY OPPOSITION

"That's why it's okay for me to make fun of how fat you are."

I apologize for this comment, and for all Twinkie-related comments. It is never okay to make fun of someone for being fat. I was drunk, furious, and wounded when I wrote those words.

Let me also say that I never complained to Nia's hosting company, nor anyone else's. Nor did I threaten to.

I maintain that turning me in was extremely hypocrytical and cruel. And I stand by all of my arguments.

I'm not interested in your secret organization, with it's ancient rules, hopping from one TV show fan site to another, making artwork and giving each other high-fives for being cool.

Your rules do not apply to me. I am not in your club. I'll stay here at Fireflyfans.net until Haken kicks me out, and I hope that day never comes.

But I am truly sorry for the fat comments. I'm still thinking about the Jesus comment. Bad timing with Easter and all. Okay, I'm sorry about that, too.

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So basically, we got people with illegal video and music compilations, on illegal hosting sites, arguing with people who copied the illegal video and music compilations and illegally hosted them.

Oh. and they called the laws on each other?
I see.

I told you kids, if you play in crap , you come out smellin like crap.

tanstaafl

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Um from one anime fan to another- plenty of fan subbers are perfectly free to get upset after an offical US version has been released, were upon their subs go from gray to illegal.


The point here is that this subculture has existed in part because, much like fan-subbers they don't flaunt it in front of say Central Park Media? (assuming they did the US version of whatever show), some one did this with FF fan vids, folowed by everyone getting nervous and trying to make sure that their other vids were not in places easily accesable by TPTB. Succatash was politly asked to remove it from his? unprotected site, and he? did not.

Fan-subbing and viding are also in several ways compleatly different- theres not such a gray area of no cash,no us version, no fault as there is in Fan-subbing. Given that most people are espousing a system that has worked well since the 60's and mirrors international law, I would say that theyre in the right.

So far M and S havent shown themselves to be anything but, well, disgustingly rude. I personally would expect better behavior from a 16 year old, but I could have my standards set too high. You all need to grow up and start acting like adults. It does your fandom no service when you deliberatly add to fuss that's pusing fans father underground. If you want an example go look at Anne Rice fandom- she's cracked down so hard there basicly are no fanworks. Fandom opperates by rules and customs usually designed to keep the TPTB away from the questionable legality stuff. Otherwise the only vids around would be satires( satire being protected and all)

Regs

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by Succatash:
MESSAGE TO MY OPPOSITION

I'm not interested in your secret organization, with it's ancient rules, hopping from one TV show fan site to another, making artwork and giving each other high-fives for being cool.

Your rules do not apply to me. I am not in your club. I'll stay here at Fireflyfans.net until Haken kicks me out, and I hope that day never comes.

---

I'm sorry
You don't get it, you seem like you'll never get it, and thats sad, becasue you will continue to allienate people because of it. Its not a club hon, its fandom, its the unwritten comunal rules by which fandom stays out of the way of the officials. Fandoms that don't follow this can get squashed. There are a few fandoms where the qwner has said they don't mind fanworks, but won't look at them to avoid issues, but thats not really par for the course, and Fox goes after people for pictures, much less anything else. So distribution is a touchy subject, and traditionally, a police force being impractical, thats been left up to the creater of the fan work, it being their neck and all and their creationg, but then again you don't get that. So i'm sorry that you don't understand nor wish to make the effort, but I know that this has gone beyond FF fandom because I am not a fan, but heard about this in another fandom( as in: Can you belive this guy? He must be nuts or something) I doubt anything would have convinced me to become one, I have enough fandoms already. But ive gone from not careing to thinking that if the show goes back on, i'll be staying out of the fandom. Its like the domlijha weirdos on DataLounge- way to messed up for me.

Regs

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Reading over everything AGAIN I am really surprised about how much fanners fear the long arm of Fox. Must be crazy living like that. Now for a question:

Why doesn't the fannish community make use of p2p or server/client programs? Something that limits who can access your stuff and aboce all comes with an agreement/contract that users must agree to? Is having a webpage that important? (I can understand the oldest and best ones wanting to keep it, but as for the rest...) Is it really worth all this fear and anger? (justified or not)

well,
TTFN

PS: This is the last time I put in my 2 cents on any topic. Way to much emotion flying around!


"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Well, I'd say that the most common P2P networks are about as "safe" as any web site--recent history has proven that if a copyright holder wants to track someone down, they'll do it, no matter what medium of communication is being used. Also, distribution via P2P puts an aura of illegitimacy on all files that web distribution doesn't. (And knowing people who have been subject to raids based on P2P distribution of files, I'd rather not use P2P at all. Having an ISP "above" you in the chain of things actually offers a type of protection ... the lawyers tend to use less drastic methods when dealing with a corportation than an individual. The corporation will get a gentlemanly C&D. The individual can have lawyers + cops show up at the door to seize the computers being used to transmit infringing materials.)

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There's a funny headline in today's news - "Hacker Smacks Down Madonna"

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/eo/20030421/en_music_eo
/11656

Apparantly, Madonna and her company made a bunch of fake mp3's of her new album and distributed them on P2P.

When fans downloaded the mp3, they got a message from Madonna saying, "What the F-CK are you doing?" looping over and over.

Well, a hacker posted the real mp3's of her new album on Madonna's own website, with a message saying, "This is what the F-CK I'm doing."

Pretty funny.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/eo/20030421/en_music_eo
/11656

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by Succatash:
MESSAGE TO MY OPPOSITION

Your rules do not apply to me. I am not in your club. I'll stay here at Fireflyfans.net until Haken kicks me out, and I hope that day never comes.

---

Ya know, Haken will probably not kick you out, but if you had taken a moment to read any of the messages posted here besides your own, you'd see that Haken already made his personal position clear:

(post from Haken)

But I do have 3 simple rules that I go by as far as this website is concerned.

1. If I didn't create it, it's not mine.
2. If it's not mine, I need permission.
3. If I don't have permission (because sometimes it just takes forever to get it or not able to), I have to remove the item when the person who created it asks me to.

It's just commonsense. So far things have worked out here on FIREFLYFANS.NET by following those three simple rules and I am able to operate without restrictions. It's a win-win situation, which is how things should be for all of us.

There you have it. Basic Fandom 101.

Quote:

---

I'm not interested in your secret organization, with it's ancient rules, hopping from one TV show fan site to another, making artwork and giving each other high-fives for being cool.

---

The "secret organization" you refer to is fandom. Look to me like you're in it.

And gaaaaahhhh I don't want to go over this again BUT YOU DID take Nia's vid and post it against her express wishes that you not do so. That indicates to me that you at least have a passing interest in the artwork that "the club" is producing.

And if you want them to keep producing, please don't keep cutting their legs out from under them.

Tis all.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by hooobity:

And gaaaaahhhh I don't want to go over this again

---

Then don't.

If it's not got by now, it's not gonna get got.

Hush!

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hooobity wrote:
"Ya know, Haken will probably not kick you out, but if you had taken a moment to read any of the messages posted here besides your own, you'd see that Haken already made his personal position clear"


What are you talking about? I read his post, in fact I responded to it. Haken was not telling me, or anyone else, how to run a website. He stated his opinion and explained how he runs his own website. I agree with the way Haken runs his website. It is a very high profile site, not at all like mine was, before it got shut down.

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Quote:

---

Sarahetc wrote:

if it's not got by now, it's not gonna get got.

---

Quite true. Trolls will always be with us in fandom. However, one never has to tolerate them.

Quote:

---

Hush!

---

See above.

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Succatash wrote: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 06:37 There's a funny headline in today's news - "Hacker Smacks Down Madonna"


Hehehe. What a hoot! (Although I hate it when the media insists on calling these people 'hackers') I guess that one just goes back to the old, "Ask a silly question..."



XenArc

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by Succatash:
Haken was not telling me, or anyone else, how to run a website.

---

Never said he was, but his post was a perfect example of what we'd all been trying to tell you about acceptable and courteous behavior in fandom, and why it works out much better for all of us if people just follow some very simple and non-hurtful guidelines.

And what we've learned from you is that you think courtesy doesn't apply to you and communities only exist for you to wipe your feet on.

Whatever. Nobody expects trolls to behave, after all. But you can't adopt troll behavior and then get your back up when people recognize it for what it is and shun and vilify you.

Your choice, dude.

Quote:

---

not at all like mine (website) was, before it got shut down.

---

Karma sucks, eh?

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hooobity wrote:
"And what we've learned from you is that you think courtesy doesn't apply to you and communities only exist for you to wipe your feet on."

Not sure what community you are in, but I belong to Firefly's community. Like I said earlier, I am not a part of anyone's secret club.

My goal is to promote Firefly and get it back on the air. Fans should use artwork to promote Firefly, they should not be using Firefly to promote their own artwork.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Viv:
Would be because you are wrong. A lawerly type person has assured me that:

(a) violation of copyright is not theft. Theft has a very specific legal meaning and copyright violation isn't it. Therefore, to argue that fans are 'stealing' from TPTB is, quite simply, wrong in law.

(b) that each fan-vidder, fanfiction writer, fan-artist etc who produces a new derivative work also holds the copyright in that work. They probably can't exploit that copyright but it doesn't stop it from existing.

---

I have looked into this kids. I have spoken with a real lawyer, not just a lawyerly type.

Violation of copyright IS theft. (Just as TragicStory stated - plagiarism and copyright law travel down the road hand in hand.)

Unfortunately, (the lawyer assured me) most copyright infringement cases do not end in jail. Instead a hefty fine is all most ever get.

In order for fan vidders to have the rights they want, they must change at least 40% of all aspects of the material that is copyrighted. That means that the music video's can't be just sectioned up and put into a different order. The video must be changed at the digital level. 40% is a lot more than most vidders have done. (at least the vids I have seen)
Also, the music which underlies the video must also be changed to the same degree. 40% That also involves changing the music at a digital level.

So, if you have followed me, the "new derivitave work" vidders have created must follow certain guidelines. Until those guidelines have been met, the copyright which vidders would like to hold on their video's is nonexistant.

I would suggest posting a valid dislclaimer of the following nature on any website you have which hosts copyrighted material from Firefly. (or anything else for that matter) --

"Since I am not the creator of the idea for the artwork I am producing, and I am not sufficiently changing it, all rights to this artwork belongs to Joss Whedon, Fox and/or Mutant Enemy - (or whoever currently owns the rights to Firefly.) As such, I cannot control the free distribution of this artwork, and there is no charge to view or download. Please be aware you may post any of this artwork on your own site, but that in order for you to charge people for the right to view, download or do anything else with this artwork, you must first contact the above mentioned copyright owners and ask their permission."

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Succatash:

Not sure what community you are in, but I belong to Firefly's community. Like I said earlier, I am not a part of anyone's secret club.

---

Boy you DO live in a vacuum, don't you? Hint; Fireflyfans.net is not the sole place where Firefly communities exists on the web. I suggest you take a look around at the hundreds of internet journals on blogspot and others where your wanking example is being held up as the pimple on the wart on the buttocks of fandom. Wait a couple of weeks and do a google search on your nick and see what your own community thinks of you and if you really are as welcome as you think you are.

After all, that's where I found this thread. Over and over again.

Quote:

---

My goal is to promote Firefly and get it back on the air.

---

Um ...yeah. Yeah. Right. By making sure the vidders stop vidding and the archivists stop archiving and the writers stop writing and the artists stop drawing because ravening weasels like you are among us?

Smart thinking, Einstein.

Quote:

---

Fans should use artwork to promote Firefly, they should not be using Firefly to promote their own artwork.

---

Man... you are a walking tower of wank.

"Fans should produce so I can steal it and do whatever I want with it", is what you've said to the fandom. The fandom is saying "No thanks" back to you. Get the hint.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Would be because you are wrong. A lawerly type person has assured me that:

---

This has never been simply about law. It's been about community and the willingness of the fans to produce artwork and fiction and vidding material IF (and that's a big darned IF) an atmosphere of trust exists in the fandom.

Destroy that trust and the fandom implodes.

Guys like Succatash voided that trust. Therefore, the vids are gone. New and wonderful vids won't be released where people like you and succatash can get at them. Rail about the law all you want, the fact exists that the fan artists in question feel violated, unappreciated, and misused. I don't blame them for that. I blame you for that.

Quote:

---

I would suggest posting a valid dislclaimer

---

(reads your version of "disclaimer" giving all and sundry free permission to bend the artist over and roger them with a steamshovel)

HAHHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAA!! In your wet dreams, dude. heheheh.

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"Hint; Fireflyfans.net is not the sole place where Firefly communities exists on the web."

Yeah, I had a Firefly site myself. Some traitors shut it down.

Fan artwork is a great way to promote Firefly. Everyone should keep up the great work.

Do it for Firefly, not yourself. Stop worrying about glory and fame.

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I anticipated your reply. Sorry you have no concept of living in any other society than the one you have made up. Real society is there though. I would suggest to all vidders that are so sure of themselves and their rights to Joss's work, to post their vid's. Also, please post you name, and your website address. If you are right, as you believe, then you have nothing to fear. (In fact you probably have nothing to fear anyway, since no one will probably ever go to your site.) But, If I am right, as I am now positive that I am, with a lawyer's perspective, then you do have something to fear. I would love for you to post your website's address. Please post your real name as well, if you are not worried. I am willing to bet though, that you will not post anything of the sort. Rather, you will continue to hide and to try to convince people that your side of the plagiarism debate is the one that most (haha) people are on. That is so false that I can't even believe you would try to pass that off. The small group that speaks out here on FFF is in no way representative of the views of the mass populace. Regardless, if you really believe in yourselves, I say once again, show your confidence. Prove it. Post your stuff. Post a link to it. (more importantly, put it where I can see it) See how long it lasts. Obviously you can't give up.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------

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Well. This has been excruciating.

My thoughts--a lot of this could have been avoided by simply being polite. Whether the original material was hers or not, Nia went to the trouble of putting it together and from the sounds of it, probably poured a lot of herself into the project. Granted, there were avenues she should have taken that would have saved a lot of grief on all sides. Nevertheless, where emotional investments of fans are concerned, it pays to be polite. I bet if Nia had been asked nicely and Succatash explained the need to share Firefly fandom with others, permission would have been given and happily.

Considering the average waistline of fandom in general, it's a sure bet the sensitive types who shop in the larger sizes have been thoroughly alienated from continuning any and all association with Firefly fandom. We'll also be seeing more timid fans from this point on--those willing to watch, but not do. If I'm having serious doubts about posting artwork (and that's anywhere, not just here), I can't be the only one. As evidenced here, creative people are ultra emotional, and emotional people can become easily gun shy.

Unfortunately, this thread is a sign of the beginning of the end for Firefly fandom. At the very least, it will be held up by others as an example of what not to do.

I can feel my heart breaking all over again, and there really isn't that much of it left.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Viv:
Would be because you are wrong. A lawerly type person has assured me that:

(a) violation of copyright is not theft. Theft has a very specific legal meaning and copyright violation isn't it. Therefore, to argue that fans are 'stealing' from TPTB is, quite simply, wrong in law.

(b) that each fan-vidder, fanfiction writer, fan-artist etc who produces a new derivative work also holds the copyright in that work. They probably can't exploit that copyright but it doesn't stop it from existing.

---

I have looked into this kids. I have spoken with a real lawyer, not just a lawyerly type.

The 'lawyerly type' would be me. I am in fact a 'real' lawyer, and have been for many years.

Violation of copyright IS theft. (Just as TragicStory stated - plagiarism and copyright law travel down the road hand in hand.)

Er, I don't know who your 'real' lawyer is, but the definition of theft is:
'A person shall be guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.'

Note that the 'dishonesty' and 'permanent deprivation' elements are vital. I don't see anyone claiming that they own TPTB's copyright. So, oh dear, there goes the dishonesty element. Nor do I see anyone 'permanently depriving' TPTB of their copyright, which remains with TPTB at all times.

There's a reason why theft is an actual criminal offence and breach of copyright (mostly) is a civil matter. Could this be because they are two completely separate matters in law perhaps?

Unfortunately, (the lawyer assured me) most copyright infringement cases do not end in jail. Instead a hefty fine is all most ever get.

'A hefty fine'? Um, no, most copyright cases turn on damages. The person whose copyright has been breached really isn't likely to be interested in any fine, as that money goes to the state. No, what they want is money paid to them by way of damages. That's why most copyright cases are civil claims/suits only, because it's all about the money.

In order for fan vidders to have the rights they want, they must change at least 40% of all aspects of the material that is copyrighted.

I don't know which law you're quoting. Certainly in my jurisdiction there is no '40% rule'. If US law states that this is the case, well, US law will only apply to people who 'publish' in the US. You see, the Berne Convention states that you have to apply local law when trying to enforce copyright, i.e. you have to enforce the law applying where the alleged copyright holder published their offending article.

Which jurisdiction applies to items 'published' on the net hasn't been determined yet, although it's likely to be the place where the ISP is physically located. So, if TPTB want to come after someone who 'publishes' a Firefly vid in Germany, for example, then they'll have to apply German law, not US, notwithstanding that TPTB are an American corporation.

With respect, I would suggest that your 'real lawyer' friend might have explained these rather tricky issues of international law to you before sending you off to post on a bulletin board on the basis of incomplete information that could be rather misleading.


Madragora

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:


Sorry you have no concept of living in any other society than the one you have made up

---

But THIS made-up subculture is the one we're talking about, you towering boob! It sure as heck doesn't exist at the supermarket or the town hall or the battlefield where you keep trying to drag it. Don't you get that? It is where you are RIGHT NOW. It's the one that fandom exists in, and it already has well-established, common-sense guidelines and expressions of courtesy and trust that have been working for a long LONG time. Trial and error (and occasional nuclear explosions) have proven and time again that these ways are the best ways for the majority of the fans to exist amicably with other fans. We've also discovered that it only takes one or two jerks to ruin it for the rest of us and make a whole lot of other people unhappy.

You may count yourself among the jerks.

Quote:

---

Post your stuff. Post a link to it. (more importantly, put it where I can see it)

---

I believe the answer you've been given is "no".

And you're wrong if you think the mass populace of FF fandom agrees with your views. You're the one who spoiled it for the rest of them and got the vids and art taken down and are forcing the rest of the vidders to go underground and leave their FF projects unreleased. Enjoy reaping what you've sown.

Heh. And you said you were a fan of FF vids. Does the phrase "shooting yourself in the foot" mean anything to you?

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Replying to my own post to say sorry for the crap formatting. I've never posted to this board before and wasn't certain how to format it properly, as is self-evident from my post.

I was, of course, responding to Maniacnumberone, not Viv.

I would also add that running off to seek 'a lawyer's' opinion does not mean that the opinion you seek is actually cast in stone. There's a *reason* why we lawyers spend a lot of time arguing matters in court, you know, which is that matters are seldom clear cut. In my experience the best odds you can *ever* offer a client vis a vis their court case are of the order of 70%, simply because no one goes to litigation if matters are really cut and dried.

I would also add that any good lawyer will advise their client that there are times when, no matter how good a case they have in law, they should give it up because maintaining the underlying relationship with the other persons involved is the most important thing.

That is something you Maniacnumberone and Succatash (apologies if I've spelt that wrong) might like to bear in mind. At the end of the day it's all about people and you seem to have abysmally failed in communicating in a courteous manner with other Firefly fans.

Please tell me, what did you hope to gain by pissing off the vidders to the point that they've pulled their vids from the net? And was it worth it? Because so far as I can see the situation you have engendered results in everyone losing.

Mandragora (who can spell her own name really)

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Interesting how your story changes over time Mandragora. First, you talked with a lawyerly type, now a day later, you are a lawyer. Well done. How long did that take you? What school did you go to? Can I also get my degree in a day? Or rather, if you haven't gotten my sarcasm yet, why are you misrepresenting yourself? You should say up front that you consulted yourself on this matter. Regardless, I do believe you are a lawyer. You see how bitter all this crap has made me? Look, I just dissed on you, and I don't even know you.

As to what I hoped to accomplish - it's simple.
I want all vidders who have made vid's to give credit where it is due, to Joss Whedon. I don't mean putting a note on their website or vid saying that Joss is the original creator either. If they gave adequate cedit to Joss, then they would not be trying to control distribution of those vids. That distribution issue is what started all of this. Myself, and I can only assume the rest of the law-abiding world, want those people to recognize that what they percieve as their original work is actually someone else's, and therefore they have no right to control distrtibution. Is that clear enough? I really couldn't care less if they make a vid. And you know what, I bet (speculation) that Joss wouldn't care either. But, they haven't changed the original work enough to claim what they are claiming. That alone is pissing me off. For example: I may as well chop up Star Wars, set it to some Bob Marley, and post it on my site saying it is my original artwork. Can I then, according to your demented secret society rules control who can download what I put together? Can I? No. I couldn't claim rights to those things, even though I changed around their order. If you are the real lawyer you profess to be, (and I don't doubt that you are) you cannot possibly argue that.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by Channain:
Unfortunately, this thread is a sign of the beginning of the end for Firefly fandom.

---

I seriously hope not. We're a family here--at least that's how I look at it. And like all families, there will be disagreements and arguments between members. It's only natural. We disagree, we fight, we learn, we grow. It's un-natural if everything was always "good," because it's not. And having whatever that causes ill will bottled up is never good for a community because it'll fester and grow and eventually sickens a community to the point where it can't be cured, can't be fixed, and the community dies.

FIREFLYFANS.NET has always been about building a community of fans. A place to hangout after we've seen an episode of Firefly. A place where we can discuss how good or bad an episode was. A place where we can share and learn. A place to have fun. And, yes, a even place to argue.

Someone asked me a while back what I'll do with this site after Firefly has been cancelled. And I said I'll keep it running and growing because it's for the fans--the community--it's the least I can do. I still believe that. I hope you do as well.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Succatash:

Yeah, I had a Firefly site myself. Some traitors shut it down.

---

Wow. Your twisted grasp of events is truly mind-boggling.

You betrayed a fellow Browncoat and fan artist and spit in the face of her wishes. YOU did. She had done nothing to you other than verbally disagree with you. You retaliated by taking her vid creation and hijacking it onto your server.

The way I see it, you play with fire, you get burned. You started shoving people around and dared them to give you the smackdown, then when you got it you cried like a baby and shouted foul.

I bet you never played football. :)

Nia and heck of a lot of her peers who also create in FF saw the rude and downright underhanded thing you did and closed ranks. They pulled their vids and stopped production on others.

I knew they would do that. Anyone else who's been active in fandom more than a week would know, too. More, I agree with their stance and their actions, because it's the one and only way they have of keeping people like you from walking all over them; by refusing - forgive the crude term, ladies - to put out.

Rule #1 in fandom: do not bite the hand that feeds you. This not only includes the supposed "fans" NOT sending hate letters to Joss Whedon and Mutant Enemy, but also not ticking off that small percentage of creative individuals from whom we get our fannish fixes like vids, art and fiction.

If I followed your line of reasoning regarding fan creations, a fellow should be able to smack his wife in the mouth and get some sugar for it. Don't work that way, though. (hoping this isn't news to you)

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by Haken:
I seriously hope not. We're a family here--at least that's how I look at it. And like all families, there will be disagreements and arguments between members. It's only natural. We disagree, we fight, we learn, we grow. It's un-natural if everything was always "good," because it's not. And having whatever that causes ill will bottled up is never good for a community because it'll fester and grow and eventually sickens a community to the point where it can't be cured, can't be fixed, and the community dies.

---

Yes, it does, doesn't it? I just wish I hadn't seen it so often--I'd probably be a lot less glass-is-half-empty about it. Conflicts with certain unreasonable types has tempted me to step away from fandom for awhile. Since I'm heading up an art show for a local fan run sci-fi convention for the fifth year in a row, I guess I'm still one of the faithful and probably always will be even when it occasionally feels like self-destructive behavior. FIREFLYFANS.NET is the best fan environment I've been in for awhile, and it's hard to see all the yelling going on with the kids, you know?

Thanks Haken. I needed that.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:

As to what I hoped to accomplish - it's simple.
I want all vidders who have made vid's to give credit where it is due, to Joss Whedon.

---

*LAUGHING*

Oh, *I* get it. Now you're not just another fan with a minority view, you've got (drumroll, please) A MANDATE. I seeeeee. You must become the defender of Joss Whedon's rights, because he so obviously needs your help in doing so.

Ya know, you kinda remind me of those rabid baptist guys on the internet picking fights and flaming catholics because "jesus needs me to defend his name!"

Get the fudge over yourself already.

(PS: does anyone else hear MsAllegro's voice in their head right about now?)

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Interesting how your story changes over time Mandragora. First, you talked with a lawyerly type, now a day later, you are a lawyer. Well done. How long did that take you? What school did you go to? Can I also get my degree in a day? Or rather, if you haven't gotten my sarcasm yet, why are you misrepresenting yourself? You should say up front that you consulted yourself on this matter. Regardless, I do believe you are a lawyer. You see how bitter all this crap has made me? Look, I just dissed on you, and I don't even know you.

As to what I hoped to accomplish - it's simple.
I want all vidders who have made vid's to give credit where it is due, to Joss Whedon. I don't mean putting a note on their website or vid saying that Joss is the original creator either. If they gave adequate cedit to Joss, then they would not be trying to control distribution of those vids. That distribution issue is what started all of this. Myself, and I can only assume the rest of the law-abiding world, want those people to recognize that what they percieve as their original work is actually someone else's, and therefore they have no right to control distrtibution. Is that clear enough? I really couldn't care less if they make a vid. And you know what, I bet (speculation) that Joss wouldn't care either. But, they haven't changed the original work enough to claim what they are claiming. That alone is pissing me off. For example: I may as well chop up Star Wars, set it to some Bob Marley, and post it on my site saying it is my original artwork. Can I then, according to your demented secret society rules control who can download what I put together? Can I? No. I couldn't claim rights to those things, even though I changed around their order. If you are the real lawyer you profess to be, (and I don't doubt that you are) you cannot possibly argue that.


I suggest that you read posts properly before sounding off. I did not claim to have talked to 'a lawyerly type', it was Viv who made that post. I merely stated that the 'lawyer type' she had talked to was me, which does, I think rather render your sarcasm otiose.

As for what you want... Oh dear. What world do you live in? Because it certainly isn't one that I recognise. You know, the real world?

So far as I am aware the vidders do give credit where it's due to the original creator, Joss Whedon, or some variant thereof, in their disclaimer. As for the actual vids themselves, although they are clearly derivative works, the copyright to said derivative works, i.e. the vids themselves rests with the *vidders*.

Those vids are *theirs*. Is that clear enough for you? Those vids do *not* belong to Joss Whedon, or fandom as a whole and they most *certainly* do not belong to you.

Whether those vids breach Joss Whedon's copyright is a question of fact, and each vid will have to be considered on an individual basis including whether the vidder in question has 'changed it enough'. However, this is a point that should be decided by someone who actually knows copyright law, such as a judge, not someone such as yourself who is regurgitating poorly understood points of law.

*If* there is an actual breach of Joss Whedon's copyright then he has the right to insist that the offending vid[s] be taken down, ceased to be 'published', maybe (depending on the circumstances) even be destroyed. What he does *not* have the right to do is to claim ownership of those vids because they do *not belong to him*. They belong to the vidders.

As owners of the vids, then the vidders certainly have the right to control distribution. Whether they can *enforce* that right, given that the vids are derivative works and in the real world - you know, the one that most of us live in - calling attention to oneself and possibly incurring the wrath of TPTB is generally considered *not to be a good thing*, is a different matter.

*That* is why media fandom relies on certain 'rules', which pretty much boil down to:
Ask first for permission t

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by hooobity:
[BIf I followed your line of reasoning regarding fan creations, a fellow should be able to smack his wife in the mouth and get some sugar for it. Don't work that way, though. (hoping this isn't news to you)

---

You did not follow my line of reasoning correctly. It is now obvious you are following very little correctly.

Let me explain again, just for you, hooober.
Using your own analogy it may be easier for you to grasp.

"a fellow smacks his wife in the mouth" -translation - vidders appropriate Joss's Firefly episodes and post them without changing them enough.

"they want sugar for it" translation - they want to control distribution rights.

And you are very right.
It doesn't work that way.


And a side note to Mandragora - according to your definition of theft, I could go up to anyone, steal anything they own and it wouldn't be theft if I intended to give it back eventually, say after 50 years. That word "permanently" will get you into a lot of trouble.

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Let me explain again, just for you, hooober.

---

hooobity. And I'd hardly call deliberately misunderstanding me, appropriating my analogy and bending the accepted rules of fandom to make it fit your example as an "explanation". But then, you've been deliberately misunderstanding everyone on this board for days. Heh. That's the first time I've seen obtuseness used as a defense plea.

"I couldn't help it, yer honor. I'm just too durn dumb to get the rules."

Quote:

---

"a fellow smacks his wife in the mouth" -translation - vidders appropriate Joss's Firefly episodes

---

Oh... so now you read Joss Whedon's mind and know what he thinks about vidding and fan activities, eh? Why don't you just change your nick to JOSS_WHEDON on the board and start answering his fan mail?

Can I have my lottery numbers now, O Swami, or does your downlink to Whedon's brain expire at midnight?

And the vidders already control distribution rights, and in the most final of ways. How? They stopped distributing. Even you should be able to recognize a dry well when you trip over it.

You know what this is really all about? It's not about Joss Whedon, it's not about vidding or fan works, and it's not about Firefly. It's about a couple of guys who got disgruntled when they found out they couldn't waltz into an already well-established community and make up new rules to suit them. That's all.

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Okay, I’m boycotting this thread right here and now!

Who’s with me?!? Come on browncoats!


Down with the evil thread!!!

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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More on the problem with the various arguments later. For now, something to bear in mind.

From an interview with Joss Whedon on about.com (link: http://actionadventure.about.com/cs/weeklystories/a/aa041903.htm )

Q: What should fans do now that they’ll have an extra hour free in their schedule?

A: What should they do with that hour? Write fan fic.



Take that as you will.

Bruce (BK) (the irregular)

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I know I swore not to chime in again, but I think that if we were to all go beat the ever-loving sh_t our of the fan who gave the VCDs and started this everyone would feel much better.


I didn't hand over the vcd, neither did Maniacone or succutash so I don't think they should be held resposible for the huge panic flight that ensuing.

"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaythryn:
Q: What should fans do now that they’ll have an extra hour free in their schedule?

A: What should they do with that hour? Write fan fic.

---

from Joss's lips to God's ears...oh, you know what I mean.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Maniacnumberone wrote:

Quote:

---

And a side note to Mandragora - according to your definition of theft, I could go up to anyone, steal anything they own and it wouldn't be theft if I intended to give it back eventually, say after 50 years. That word "permanently" will get you into a lot of trouble.

---

To which my response (along, with, oh God, I really don't have time for this) is:
I didn't make the law. That's the *legal definition* of theft in the jurisdiction in which I practise.

But - surprise, surprise - lawyers actually did anticipate the 'borrowing' point. The law states that a person is therefore treated as intending to permanently deprive if his intention is to treat the object as his own to dispose of regardless of the other's rights; and a borrowing or lending of it may amount to so treating it if this borrowing or lending is for such a period and in circumstances making it equivalent to an outright taking or disposal.

The case law suggests that this 'borrowing' is usually for a short period of time, even hours or days can be too long, depending on the circumstances. 'Borrowing' something for fifty years would almost certainly amount to theft in pretty much all circumstances.

And a word of friendly advice, I suggest that before you attempt to quibble the law with a lawyer you actually make some attempt to know what you're talking about first.

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaythryn:
Okay, I’m boycotting this thread right here and now! Who’s with me?!? Come on browncoats!

---

boycotting.
buh-bye y'all--see ya on a different thread.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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this one's getting too big to load quickly anyhow.

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaythryn:
Okay, I’m boycotting this thread right here and now!

Who’s with me?!? Come on browncoats!


Down with the evil thread!!!

---

I'm with you, in fact; I've... got... an idea. We hijack the tread. Post stuff that has nothing to do with the topic.

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by BKtheirregular:
From an interview with Joss Whedon on about.com (link: http://actionadventure.about.com/cs/weeklystories/a/aa041903.htm )

Q: What should fans do now that they’ll have an extra hour free in their schedule?

A: What should they do with that hour? Write fan fic.

---

No smack in the mouth? Shocker. Only NOT.

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Quote:

---

Those vids are *theirs*. Is that clear enough for you? Those vids do *not* belong to Joss Whedon, or fandom as a whole and they most *certainly* do not belong to you.

---

Well, this is my last word on the subject - I disagree with you. Your above statement is wrong. We can repeat it and repeat it, I am not going to budge.

On a side note, you know what's funny about all of this? Succatash is actually a master video editor. He gets paid to make online video demonstrations.

He has made many short movies and music videos, and he always gets permission to use audio. The video he shoots himself with a High-8 vid camera. He made a very funny movie about a ventriloquist dummy who went to college, and lots of videos for his friends band.

He has made a lot of illegal stuff too, but he just lets those vids get passed around.

Succatash knows better.

...and so with a wave of his hand, Maniac leaves this cursed thread, and joins Kaythryn in the boycott.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------

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Quote:

---

I'm with you, in fact; I've... got... an idea. We hijack the tread. Post stuff that has nothing to do with the topic.

---

Love it, love you

Any one have any suggestions for a list of everyday Firefly curses and short phrases? I need some lingo.

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaythryn:
Love it, love you

---

Love you right back.

Quote:

---

Any one have any suggestions for a list of everyday Firefly curses and short phrases? I need some lingo.

---

For use on this post?

You know it took like a minute for this post to load. It should be instantanious. Like a second.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by TragicStory:

I know I swore not to chime in again, but I think that if we were to all go beat the ever-loving sh_t our of the fan who gave the VCDs and started this everyone would feel much better.

I didn't hand over the vcd, neither did Maniacone or succutash so I don't think they should be held resposible for the huge panic flight that ensuing.

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(holding up hand)
Umm... point of interest? Just because I like to keep the facts straight. As dumb as that VCD person was, the REAL flight and the taking down of vids and webpages didn't start until maniacnumberone posted Nia's vid without her permission. Granted, he took it down but grudgingly so, and then Succatash put it back up against her wishes with his (apparent) support. The FF vids that won't be released now are a direct result of their actions.

No offense, just clarifying matters.

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Okay, as far as I can tell, this should hopefully address both sides of the argument. No names named, no names called. Just the best logic I can muster. This is my point of view; your mileage may vary...

I suspect a large part of the problem is that this argument is operating on two levels simultaneously, and those levels keep getting mixed up and tangled.

First, there’s the purely legal level, in which anyone who takes copyrighted material and distributes it in any manner without express written permission can be held liable. That’s anyone at all - from the person who creates the vid, to the person who puts it up on a web site, to the person who gives the vid to the copyright holder. A number of individual copyright holders turn a blind eye to this, which is what allows such creative fandom efforts to survive and prosper, but many corporations find it necessary to jealously guard their copyrighted material, and do so to levels even beyond what the law permits sometimes.

On this level, just about EVERYONE here is in the wrong, myself included. Fox could, in theory, hit fireflyfans.net with a Cease and Desist order, which the owners of this site might - MIGHT - be able to successfully fight, but at a cost in resources they probably cannot bear. So this entire site lives under the Sword of Damocles.

Then there’s the other level, the level that most of creative fandom operates on, in whatever genre. The people who put effort into creating music vids, photo manipulations, and fan fiction cannot look to the law to protect them; hence, creative fandom must survive under ... well, let’s just call them “gentlemen’s agreements”, with apologies to the ladies. The purpose of such gentlemen’s agreements is to enable the vidder or photomanipulator or fanfic author (I’ll just use the term “creator” for simplicity’s sake here) to remain under the radar of those entities that jealously guard their copyright, and use drastic means of enforcement. Some fandoms benefit from permissive copyright holders, such as the anime fandoms mentioned above; others, like those based on Fox-owned properties, must be more circumspect.

One solution to the problem might be total anonymity, but that has its own problems: human beings have a tendency to want to be recognized for what they do, and in the past, this has proven to be an acceptable price for the fandom to pay to encourage people to continue their creative efforts. Names become associated with types of work, levels of quality, enabling people to find material to suit their tastes more quickly, and enhance their enjoyment of the fandom.

In the past, when a creator has asked for material to be taken off publicly accessible sites, there have been several reasons, from a desire to withdraw from the fandom, to a creator having run afoul of the copyright holders and finding himself or herself on the business end of court orders, to a perceived need for the creator to go into a sort of “silent running” mode for a time, to allow a tense situation to dissipate. Generally, this has entailed the creator removing works from publicly accessible domains, and requesting that anyone else who has those materials on a publicly accessible site remove them. It’s not a matter of jealousy; it’s a matter of waiting out the hunter, trying to stay as quiet as possible until the danger is past.

It’s also ENTIRELY dependent on the good will of the community in respecting the creator’s wishes. The creator doesn’t have any leverage to force others in the fandom to take the works out of circulation, but is betting on the fandom understanding that.

(Oh, and here’s another wrinkle: I’ll have to look this one up, but if Creator A is hit with a cease-and-desist letter, forced to pull the vids, and Creator A is aware of the existence of copies of those vids on a certain site on the Internet, Creator A may very well be obliged to reveal that location to the authorities. The consequences if Creator A fails to do so: possibly the cease-and-desist letter from the lawyers becomes an official court

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Quote:

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Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
I am not going to budge.

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Ain't getting no vids either. Enjoy the silence.

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Quote:

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You know it took like a minute for this post to load. It should be instantanious. Like a second.

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maybe we can kill it through sheer gluttony.

not boycotting anymore (obviously). don't know why i tried.

Quote:

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Posted by Sarahetc.
Any one have any suggestions for a list of everyday Firefly curses and short phrases? I need some lingo.

---

she probably needs it for use in her next shiny new FAN FIC!!

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Gluttony works. Hey it's one of the seven deadly sins.

i hope she needs it for a fic. Don't want to be contributing to someone's deliquency.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by BKtheirregular:

Then there’s the other level, the level that most of creative fandom operates on, in whatever genre. The people who put effort into creating music vids, photo manipulations, and fan fiction cannot look to the law to protect them; hence, creative fandom must survive under ... well, let’s just call them “gentlemen’s agreements”, with apologies to the ladies.

---

Not offended. :) Wonderful post, BK. Very reasonable and rational. But here's the rub - what do the creators of fannish works do when they're not dealing with gentlemen?



In a way, I guess you could say that Nia and the other vidders put their trust too easily in the hands of scoundrels. That's as may be, but me and you and everyone else in FF are the ones losing out because of it. At least 3 of my favorite archives are offline today, and I haven't even begun to assess the damage yet. (I'm too afraid to look!) So yeah, that ticks me off. Maniacnumberone and Succatash's stubborn and ignorant refusal to see how their actions have harmed the Firefly fandom is just as irritating, but I've given up trying to convince them that slapping people in the face just because you can is inherently wrong.

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I don't need new curses. I got a dictionary! And a list in a notebook on my desk. Kaythryn needs 'em.

As for fanfic: I got the first 5 pages of a new Wash fic and the chicken scratchings of a new Browncoat Chronicles.

Actually, I would like to know the Chinese for "Hoobity, take your barbies and go home and shut the fox up already. Christ!"

But! Hijacking the thread! Best idea in a long time.

Sarah

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Sarahetc:
chinese for "Hoobity, take your barbies and go home and shut the fox up already. Christ!"

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No barbie dolls here (and no twinkies, either), but I'm fairly sure I could find out how to say "this IS the thread for the hijacked video, so I'm staying! Nyah!" in Mandarin.

When you hijack a plane, you still gotta deal with the passengers.

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Boycotting.

That's my response.

And get over it already hooobity. Join the happy people. Seriously, talk about something else with us.

---You know... I used to play with Barbie dolls. I'd paint them all over in blue and red nail polish so they'd look more interesting. Then me and my friend across the street boiled them in this big witch cauldron she had in her back yard.

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Kaythryn:
Boycotting.

That's my response.

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Well... not to be pedantic but it's not really the definition of boycotting if you're posting in this thread. About *anything*.

Quote:

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And get over it already hooobity. Join the happy people.

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I stand with my shipmates, sir. The vidders who pulled their works, for which I find it hard to express any happiness. So you'll have to forgive me if I can't go cozying up to the people who went around slapping them yesterday.

Thank you for being civil, (I do sincerely appreciate that) but as far as joining the Other Side, as Mal might say, "It wouldn't be right".

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Haken, I recommend closing this thread. While I appreciate your hands-off moderating style, there has already been too much heat and not enough light in this discussion (other than BK's great post), and it doesn't appear that is going to change.

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Quote:

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Posted by Hooobity:
I stand with my shipmates, sir. The vidders who pulled their works, for which I find it hard to express any happiness. So you'll have to forgive me if I can't go cozying up to the people who went around slapping them yesterday.

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Fine, don't express any happiness, but tone down the unproductive unhappiness please.

And I don't remember slapping anyone yesterday, so you can talk to me. No cozying I promise.

Yeah, I know, my boycotting went down the drain. I'm going with Talrius-- happy thoughts on this thread.

Current conversation: Barbie dolls-
I painted and boiled mine. What kind of mutilation did you guys subject your stereotypical-anorexic-bleached-sex symbols to?

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Kaythryn:
I'm going with Talrius-- happy thoughts on this thread.

Current conversation: Barbie dolls-
I painted and boiled mine. What kind of mutilation did you guys subject your stereotypical-anorexic-bleached-sex symbols to?

---

Well, I never had barbie dolls myself, but seem to recall setting some of my G.I. Joe "action figures" on fire...

(interesting choice for a "happy" topic, Kathryn )

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Quote:

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Originally posted by TragicStory:
I


I didn't hand over the vcd, neither did Maniacone or succutash so I don't think they should be held resposible for the huge panic flight that ensuing.

B]

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They aren't.
They are being held responsible for their rude, insulting behavior in which they refuse to concede that they might possibly have done something that people consider wrong,and would consider wrong weather or not that person had made the VCD. They procede in such a way that people keep trying to explain the way it works to them because its a lot like watching a socially inept kid try to play with others, in that train wreck sort of way. Its frustrating to people when someone refuses (possibly is incapable) of displaying an accurate knowledge of basic social rules. Usually its assumed they don't know, and people try to educate them, but its seems to me that they are deliberatly not understanding what is going on, which is very nearly the definition of troll, though I don't *think* that is their intention. What everyone really wants is for them to grow up and get a clue so FF fandom can stop getting laughed at by all the other fandoms for haveing such crazy idiots/trolls in it. Youve no clue how many other fandoms this has turned up in as an example of bad taste troll can you belive these nuts? etc. No one in any of them seems to agree with them. I personally am beginning to wonder if they are older enough to drive, because they certainly don't act like it. I'd say more but i'm running out of time.

Regs

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Kaythryn:

Quote:

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Posted by Hooobity:


Current conversation: Barbie dolls-
I painted and boiled mine. What kind of mutilation did you guys subject your stereotypical-anorexic-bleached-sex symbols to?

---

Dodge Barbie!
Its like dodgeball but with barbies intead of balls.

regs

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Quote:

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Posted by Hakia:
Dodge Barbie!
Its like dodgeball but with barbies intead of balls.

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See Barbies arn't just girly toys!
That sounds kind of dangerous... you still have vision in both eyes?

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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I would like to thank Succatash for his apology re: Twinkies. I am sorry that others were not as decent about it and continued hurling insults at you afterward.

I realize that I was not specifically the target of that comment but, I must say that after my initial anger at it, I had to step back and laugh. I hope that the next time someone insults me, they put that much thought and creativity into it.

You have said over and over that you are really more interested in evangelizing the fandom than your are in the egos of vidders.

I think you are correct that many vidders have huge egos. It is possible that you are right that they cannot realistically hope to maintain complete control their work. But, your insistance that you are correct in the face of this much opposition leads me to suspect that you also have an ego. (Now that I know that you also vid, it certainly makes sense to me that you would have one.) ;)

Just a thought - but it seems to me that your ego cares more about being right, than it does about preserving or extending the fandom. Egos are rather troublesome creatures with minds of their own and they often put is in very strange situations.

This isn't the world of Firefly. Unfortunately, we cannot go off and find our own planet when people decide to inflict rules upon us that we don't like. Might I suggest that, even though you disagree with them that you play by established vidder rules when dealing with established vidders. It is much easier to change things when you are inside "the system" than when you are outside.

I hope you get your website up again sometime soon. I, for one, would love to see your vids. If they are as inventive as your insults, they must be wonderful.

Off to watch Smallville. Boy, am I glad I have Tivo.

Oh - and to those who have been objecting to the rehash after rehash I just have to say that this has been better than the OJ Simpson trial. Thank you all.

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