New to Angel, and I'm having this problem...

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Sunday, June 4, 2006 12:55
VIEWED: 15919
PAGE 1 of 1

CHRISISALL

Friday, August 26, 2005 11:24 PM

I started having this problem during Buffy's fourth season viewing, and now I've identified it during my rental of AtS S1, they try so hard to gut you, pull your emotional strings, and make you feel for the characters, yet it's a show about monsters, vampires, and guys with latex masks and body-suits doing martial arts.
I'm all about martial arts, but is every demon outta Hell a black belt? The premise is almost too silly to argue about- reality must be checked at the door. But in doing so, I seem to lose that 'real' connection to the characters, and their troubles...
Firefly is real to me, every single time a character felt something, I was there, too. When Jayne says, " Don't tell em what I did, make something up...", I get a genuine LUMP in my throat! And Mal doesn't pull a Bruce Lee on Early, who is a professionally trained assasin. Little doses of reality on a space show that draws you in, makes you believe what's happening.
The last show of Angel featuring Doyle should've had me in tears for long after it's end, yet I felt a contrived and quite limited grief. The plot devices and general unbelievability of the situations on the show give it a very fanciful edge, and it can be gorram funny, but the pathos is lost on me.
On Buffy, I don't have as much of that problem, Xander is the saving grace for me, I like it MOSTLY for the funny.

Am I alone in this feeling?
And more importantly, are there any guns aimed in my direction for this thread?

Trepidacious Chrisisall

EMBERS

Friday, August 26, 2005 11:55 PM

You aren't wrong.
BtVS & Ats are fantasies...and the fanciful nature of the shows is from the most basic level.
After Angel ended Joss, at a Q&A at Chicago's Wizard World, said he was sick of vampires.

Personally I thought that that statement related to the fact that Joss had no use for aliens in his sci-fi. When you have things that are clearly made up then the world you've created is much less real.

I have to say that I have no trouble with wacky sci-fi filled with aliens (Farscape was definitely wacky!), or fantasy with alll the demons and witches and all, so long as the writing is wonderful and the characters are compelling. I loved Buffy & Angel, and I feel that they represent something really special and creative (you'll never get a musical of Firefly/Serenity because it wouldn't be 'real').

But I do agree that Firefly/Serenity is the very best of Joss' work, no argument on that head.

SHINY

Saturday, August 27, 2005 12:17 AM

Yeah, have the same problem with Buffy. It doesn't bother me quite as much on Angel for some reason. I kind of remember there was at least one episode where they self-referentially made fun of the fact that all vampires rise from the graves the first time with innate martial arts skills...

Jayne, your mouth is talkin. Might want to look into that.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, August 27, 2005 12:21 AM

Well, on the other hand, you have Babylon 5, and while many of my best friends lauded the series as the best thing since (and sometimes better than) Star Trek, I personally found it to be boring and dry- too real for it's own good (funky aliens excluded).
So my view is definitly only one particular view...(plus: I'd take wacky over dry any day of the week).

All in all, I AM enjoying AtS, though.

Chrisisall

BATMARLOWE

Saturday, August 27, 2005 2:42 AM

The parts of "Hero" that explain Doyle's character more and the ending work for me. I wasn't crazy about the plot itself and I thought the Scourge was a bad idea stupidly executed. As season one moves along, it becomes more intriguing as W&H plays a bigger role. And the character development and stories get more interesting. Hang in there, it gets better. Especially S2.

As to the martial arts exptertise of 99% of the vampires and every demon whose costume doesn't restrict him? You notice it. You kind of make fun of it. Just as you do when you notice the abundance of wood that seems to be readily available in Sunnydale. But for me, that stuff is so minor compared to what's good that I can suspend disbelief.

But if it interferes with your connection to the characters then it just does and you're entitled to feel that way.

That kind of omnipresent fighting ability wouldn't work on FIREFLY because of its more realistic setting, tone, etc. But if FIREFLY had gone on long enough it probably would have developed some sort of idiosyncracy that might have challenged suspension of disbelief.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, August 27, 2005 2:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
But if FIREFLY had gone on long enough it probably would have developed some sort of idiosyncracy that might have challenged suspension of disbelief.

Maybe, but the set-up would have limited it, I think. The no-aliens thing for one. No bumpy headed monsters were ever gonna show up to 'take over the Alliance', and prove a greater threat *que omninous music*

Don't get me wrong, some of my best friends are aliens Chrisisall

GROOSALUGG

Saturday, August 27, 2005 3:03 AM

If I can suspend belief enough to accept a world populated by vampires, demons, and a high school girl with superpowers, then I have no trouble with the high degree of fighting skills of said-monsters.

The shows are really about the characters and the stories surrounding them; the demons are just a tool for helping to tell those stories.

Plus, the fights are always so well-choreographed and acted that I find them so much fun to watch. The one in "Destiny" (Angel S5) which takes up nearly two full acts is as epic as anything ever done on one of Joss's shows.

PURPLEBELLY

Saturday, August 27, 2005 6:40 AM

I, too, wish that Whedon had been able to create a Network TV show about teen-twenty sex and drugs without having to dress them up as vampires and magic, but that's showbiz I guess. Having a heroine saving the World many times was probably more acceptable than serial abortions; if you don't think babies are apocalyptic, ask your Mom and Dad

I thought that the fights on Firefly were an homage to 'Sixties TV Westerns rather than an attempt at realism - must be the way I fight

BATMARLOWE

Saturday, August 27, 2005 6:55 AM

"Destiny" has the absolute best fight in all of Buffy/Angeldom!

GROUNDED

Saturday, August 27, 2005 12:10 PM

Tis a good fight, but my shabby longplay VHS copy of it is so grainy it all goes by in a bit of a blur :(

GROUNDED

Saturday, August 27, 2005 12:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I'm all about martial arts, but is every demon outta Hell a black belt?

Assuming you've only watched up to Hero, which demons are you talking about? There's the one in I Will Remember You, but who else?

MIKEYMO

Saturday, August 27, 2005 1:25 PM

Quote:
Am I alone in this feeling?
And more importantly, are there any guns aimed in my direction for this thread?

Just hold still... *aims*

You're right about it being silly that all demons know kung fu. I guess that it doesn't really bother me so much for a couple of reasons.

1) I had seen all of Buffy before I got into Angel, so by the time I got to AtS I had accepted it.
2) The fights are SO much better on Angel that I spend a lot of the time just appreciating their stunt coordination and thinking about how silly all the fights on Buffy were.

I guess if you're looking for someone to fanwank the issue away, I can give that a shot. Not EVERY demon has super fighting skills, just ones that have come to Earth or this dimension or whatever as warriors - which includes vampires. I believe there's a demon in the very next episode "Parting Gifts" that's not a fighter, and there are several examples throughout the series. But since Angel's a champion for good, he usually runs into champions for evil.

Still, there should've been a demon that knew capoeria instead. That would have been funny. Breakdancing demons? I'm sure if Angel had run another year or two.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

CHRISISALL

Saturday, August 27, 2005 3:04 PM

I've seen 15 eps of AtS S1 now. She, and the fight in front of the stopped train w/the druggie demon come to martial mind.

Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Saturday, August 27, 2005 3:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MikeyMo:
But since Angel's a champion for good, he usually runs into champions for evil.

OKay, that's good.

Chrisisall

MIKEYMO

Saturday, August 27, 2005 3:16 PM

Yeah, the drugged up demon was kind of a problem in this respect. If they're peaceful, nonviolent demons normally, how would they learn to fight? It's stated that the drug, or the withdrawl, increased their aggresiveness and strength, but where did the moves come from? I guess it just makes for better action sequences.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

CHRISISALL

Saturday, August 27, 2005 4:22 PM

7 more eps to go on this season. The fights in general have been much more ferocious than Buffy's (with the possible exception of Buffy vs. Faith), and I really like the visual style of the series.

Kek demon Chrisisall

GROUNDED

Saturday, August 27, 2005 5:16 PM

Still some crackers to come before the season is out :)

MIKEYMO

Saturday, August 27, 2005 6:08 PM

word, Grounded. I just checked an episode guide and there's a couple of classics to see before the season's over.

Edited to add: I actually don't know what crackers means in this context. Is it a good thing? 'Cause that's what I took it to mean...

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

BATMARLOWE

Saturday, August 27, 2005 6:30 PM

Grounded,

No ANGEL Season 5 DVD's for you? :(

THRAWN

Saturday, August 27, 2005 6:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
7 more eps to go on this season. The fights in general have been much more ferocious than Buffy's (with the possible exception of Buffy vs. Faith), and I really like the visual style of the series.

Kek demon Chrisisall

Starting in season 2, the show starts to play a lot more with the concept that demons aren't necessarily evil, and there's one character in particular (you'll know who I'm talking about pretty quickly) that's a demon and the total antithesis of any of the others we've ever seen.

I found Angel S1 rather dull for exactly the reason you're describing; for lack of a better way to put it, everything was a little too cut and dry, even the episodes where they tried for moral ambiguity I thought were heavy-handed and obvious. The rest of the show alters that nicely.

EMBERS

Saturday, August 27, 2005 7:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Well, on the other hand, you have Babylon 5, and I personally found it to be boring and dry- too real for it's own good (funky aliens excluded).
So my view is definitly only one particular view...(plus: I'd take wacky over dry any day of the week).

All in all, I AM enjoying AtS, though.

Chrisisall

I have to say that I never found Babylon 5 dry, I always found it a rich tapestry of political manipulation and intrigue...
particularly among the wacky aliens.
Enterprisealways seemed the driest of the dry to me...no humor, no subtext, and no character layers (no one remembers what happened the week before during the current episode).

I had trouble getting into Ats during the first season, they had taken the two characters I cared the least about (Angel & Cordelia) and added a third who didn't seem more interesting to me....
but then,
as I was giving up on the show,
they started the cross over episodes w/Buffy
(I REALLY loved Oz & Spike showing up in LA),
and then Wesley...
have you gotten far enough for when Wesley hits town?
I LOVE Wesley!

HJERMSTED

Saturday, August 27, 2005 8:57 PM

I enjoyed but didn't LOVE Angel season 1. The show didn't resonate for me until season 2. Without spoiling too much... this is when the writers began introducing (and re-introducing) characters that would play (and had already played) big roles in the Angel mythos.

For the record, season 2, 3, and 5 are my favorite Angel seasons. So hang in there! Good stuff is on the way.

mattro

GROUNDED

Saturday, August 27, 2005 10:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MikeyMo:
word, Grounded. I just checked an episode guide and there's a couple of classics to see before the season's over.

Edited to add: I actually don't know what crackers means in this context. Is it a good thing? 'Cause that's what I took it to mean...

Another UKism creeping in then? If something is really good you can describe it as 'cracking'. It would therefore be a 'cracker'.

Batmarlowe: S5 DVDs are too pricey for me. They'll appear in some Fox promotion soon enough I suspect ;)

CHRISISALL

Sunday, August 28, 2005 4:07 PM

Wesley, yeah. And I just saw the one w/Faith, she shakes up any episode!!!

Mayor Chrisisall

GROUNDED

Sunday, August 28, 2005 7:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Wesley, yeah. And I just saw the one w/Faith, she shakes up any episode!!!

Mayor Chrisisall

The end of Five by Five is the greatest moment in TV history ;)

CHRISISALL

Sunday, August 28, 2005 8:47 PM

I'm gonna re-watch it tonight!! Then Sanctuary (which I haven't seen yet...)
So far, my two faves in AtS S1 were w/Buffy and Faith!

Old angst mine Chrisisall

GROUNDED

Sunday, August 28, 2005 10:09 PM

Five by Five/Sanctuary is a double-whammy of goodness :) I liked it better when they had stand-alone episodes following character arcs, with a little bit of plot arc in the background, punctuated by big two parters like this. It's the perfect TV formula :)

CHRISISALL

Sunday, August 28, 2005 10:30 PM

Grounded, I'll be in trouble soon; Blockbuster has no more Angel for rent! After S1, I gotta go and buy S2!!!! But I also haven't seen Buffy S5!!!!!
Which should I get first? I have a feeling I might like AtS S2 better than BTVS S5, what do you think?

The idea of a Buffybot offends me Chrisisall

GROOSALUGG

Monday, August 29, 2005 3:15 AM

Up to you, chrisisall, but I'd suggest Buffy S5 first. There aren't many x-overs between the two shows during that season(s), but the two or three things that go from one to the next all start on Buffy and then move to Angel. The very last scene of the Angel S2 finale has a lot more meaning to it if you've seen the Buffy S5 finale first.

And BTW, reserve judgment on the Buffybot 'til you've actually seen it. Personally, I don't think Sarah was ever funnier or cuter than when she was playing the Bot.

GETBUFFED

Monday, August 29, 2005 6:41 AM

the thing about the action and the ability for the monsters to be able to know martial arts is something you just gotta swallow during the first couple of episodes. The thing about Sci-fi is to learn the basic premise and happenings in the world ur diving into, once you have that down you judge it by those standards and the mythology presented.

I knew alot of people who were disturbed by the fact that skinny ol sarah michelle gellar was kickin butt and saving the world. the thing is they dont accept that the girl has super powers, abilities to heal and super accuracy and speed. They just see girl and that erases everything else. Thats actually a big problem alot of people have with Buffy, girl with power....alot of viewers feel more comfortable with Angel because he's a traditional hero, he's male. It's dumb, but what can you do?

I personally love Buffy among all Joss's creations. That show was truly unique.

SHINY

Monday, August 29, 2005 8:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GetBuffed:
Thats actually a big problem alot of people have with Buffy, girl with power....alot of viewers feel more comfortable with Angel because he's a traditional hero, he's male. It's dumb, but what can you do?

I don't know about you, but I think having practically every vampire and demon fighting in a martial arts style is so silly as to require significantly more suspension of disbelief than 'girl with power' or any of the other premises of the show. But maybe that's just me.

---

Serenity is coming. 9/30/05.

ODDNESS2HER

Monday, August 29, 2005 4:51 PM

Oooh, I've been waiting for this opportunity!
I have my own little theory that helps me get past this very thing:

What we call martial arts originated with the demons. They all have the skills innately as part of their nature. Humans studied and learned their fighting techniques as a way of standing a chance of defending themselves.

SHINY

Monday, August 29, 2005 6:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
I kind of remember there was at least one episode where they self-referentially made fun of the fact that all vampires rise from the graves the first time with innate martial arts skills...

Does anyone remember what episode this was from? I've been wracking my brain and googling like crazy, but I can't find it. I know I saw it recently on TV, like in the last 2-3 weeks...

---

Serenity is coming. 9/30/05.

MIKEYMO

Monday, August 29, 2005 6:27 PM

I absolutely loved 5x5 as well... the interaction of Faith and Wesley was just awesome. The shot of Wesley grabbing the knife and preparing to head out and kill faith was just chilling. That was the moment when I started to really respect that man.

With regards to Buffy s5 v. Angel s2 -- I guess you should get Buffy season 5 first, although I think AtSS2 is superior. With Buffy you get Hush and Fool For Love, but Angel gets you Reunion, Redefinition, Reprise, and the Dances of Joy and Honor.

Hrmm. OK, personally, I'd go with the Angel DVDs. It's not like you'll be missing much by not seeing Buffy first. But that's just my personal bias showing through. My guess is, pure momentum will cause you to buy the Angel DVDs first.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

AMYEL

Monday, August 29, 2005 6:37 PM

Dawn mentions in the first scene of "Lessons" (season 7 premiere) that vampires seem to catch on to the fancy martial arts pretty quickly.

AMYEL

Monday, August 29, 2005 6:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MikeyMo:
With Buffy you get Hush and Fool For Love, but Angel gets you Reunion, Redefinition, Reprise, and the Dances of Joy and Honor.

Hush is season 4. Fool for Love is THE season 5 episode, as well as The Gift.

I like Buffy season 5. Buffy's slayer life and "real life" really start to conflict with each other, which makes things interesting.

But I love love love Angel season 2. Ooooh yeah, Angel and his wacky ass vamp family issues. Good times.

SHINY

Monday, August 29, 2005 7:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by amyel:
Dawn mentions in the first scene of "Lessons" (season 7 premiere) that vampires seem to catch on to the fancy martial arts pretty quickly.

THANK YOU!!! That was driving me crazy! :)

Here's the quote, for those who are interested in the self-mockery:

Quote:

BUFFY
It’s about power: who’s got it, who knows how to use it..

She tosses a stake to DAWN who stands at the foot of the grave.
BUFFY
So… who’s got the power, Dawn?
DAWN
Well, I’ve got the stake.
BUFFY
The stake is not the power.
DAWN
But he’s new. He doesn’t know his strength. He might not know
all those fancy martial arts skills they inevitably seem to pick up.
BUFFY
Who’s got the power?
DAWN
(sighs)
He does.

---

Serenity is coming. 9/30/05.

BATMARLOWE

Monday, August 29, 2005 8:20 PM

Chris,

If you've seen the final episode of ANGEL S1, it will greatly tempt you to want to start on S2.

But I would still recommend BUFFY S5 first.

I'm very much a pro-fiver, but that's not the point. S5 is a very significant season. And when you're finished you'll have ANGEL S2 to look forward to.

That my 2 cents.

I understand your initial reaction regarding the Buffybot. But Sarah's portrayal is a kick and she (it) is used effectively. You'll see.

BATMARLOWE

Monday, August 29, 2005 8:21 PM

Chris,

If you've seen the final episode of ANGEL S1, it will greatly tempt you to want to start on S2.

But I would still recommend BUFFY S5 first.

I'm very much a pro-fiver, but that's not the point. S5 is a very significant season. And when you're finished you'll have ANGEL S2 to look forward to.

That my 2 cents.

I understand your initial reaction regarding the Buffybot. But Sarah's portrayal is a kick and she (it) is used effectively. You'll see.

CHRISISALL

Monday, August 29, 2005 9:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
Oooh, I've been waiting for this opportunity!
I have my own little theory that helps me get past this very thing:

What we call martial arts originated with the demons. They all have the skills innately as part of their nature. Humans studied and learned their fighting techniques as a way of standing a chance of defending themselves.

Kung-Fu has always mimicked animal forms, perhaps the earliest 'animals' mimicked were demons...?
If so, your theory is quite sound!

Whoah Chrisisall

MIKEYMO

Monday, August 29, 2005 9:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by amyel:
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeyMo:
With Buffy you get Hush and Fool For Love, but Angel gets you Reunion, Redefinition, Reprise, and the Dances of Joy and Honor.

Hush is season 4. Fool for Love is THE season 5 episode, as well as The Gift.

Ooops, that's right - I meant The Body, not Hush.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

ODDNESS2HER

Monday, August 29, 2005 9:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
Oooh, I've been waiting for this opportunity!
I have my own little theory that helps me get past this very thing:

What we call martial arts originated with the demons. They all have the skills innately as part of their nature. Humans studied and learned their fighting techniques as a way of standing a chance of defending themselves.
Kung-Fu has always mimicked animal forms, perhaps the earliest 'animals' mimicked were demons...?
If so, your theory is quite sound!

Whoah Chrisisall

That's what I like about you, Chris: you're open to new ideas. Especially mine.

CHRISISALL

Monday, August 29, 2005 9:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:

suspension of disbelief

I couldn't watch w/out it. Bigtime.

Kung-Fu demon Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Monday, August 29, 2005 10:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
Oooh, I've been waiting for this opportunity!
I have my own little theory that helps me get past this very thing:

What we call martial arts originated with the demons. They all have the skills innately as part of their nature. Humans studied and learned their fighting techniques as a way of standing a chance of defending themselves.
Kung-Fu has always mimicked animal forms, perhaps the earliest 'animals' mimicked were demons...?
If so, your theory is quite sound!

Whoah Chrisisall

That's what I like about you, Chris: you're open to new ideas. Especially mine.

No, really! It makes a really weird kind of sense!
I think you really just helped me w/most of my problem- thanks!

Never thought about it before Chrisisall

ODDNESS2HER

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 3:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
Oooh, I've been waiting for this opportunity!
I have my own little theory that helps me get past this very thing:

What we call martial arts originated with the demons. They all have the skills innately as part of their nature. Humans studied and learned their fighting techniques as a way of standing a chance of defending themselves.
Kung-Fu has always mimicked animal forms, perhaps the earliest 'animals' mimicked were demons...?
If so, your theory is quite sound!

Whoah Chrisisall

That's what I like about you, Chris: you're open to new ideas. Especially mine.
No, really! It makes a really weird kind of sense!
I think you really just helped me w/most of my problem- thanks!

Never thought about it before Chrisisall

You're most welcome!

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 6:11 PM

Okay, I'm done w/AtS S1, and know what? My favourite eps were the ones w/Buffy and Faith.
I guess I just like Buffy better than Angel...

Buffy, BUFFY, BUFFY, BUFFY, Chrisisall

BATMARLOWE

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 6:46 PM

Welp, I guess if your faves were the ones with Buffy and Faith, that does indeed answer your question.

What'd you think about those two with Faith? I thought they were fantastic. That story really drew me into ANGEL--made me want more.

What'd you think about the end of ep 22 of ANGEL? I couldn't wait to get the S2 DVD's after that.

I too can echo the sentiment buffy, Buffy, BUFFY!

But now *drum roll* BUFFY Season 5!

Looking forward to your reactions to it.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 6:59 PM

The Faith eps were awsome; she was so psycho from the start, at the club where she started the fight, and kept dancing!!!!
Her breakdown in front of Angel was touching (you know, like almost sad in a way), and it was cool to see her take the first step towards responsibility at the end.
The end show of Angel had me, um, well - I watched a Buffy ep right after

David just doesn't do it for me Chrisisall

MIKEYMO

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 7:09 PM

OK, you go watch Buffy season 5 first. It really is great, with a strong overall arc and some great individual episodes. But I still think Angel S2 is better, and you'll have to check that out at some point. David gets a lot more to do in the second season.

P.S. I never really cared for Angel when he was on Buffy.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

BATMARLOWE

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 7:24 PM

Yeah? Seeing Darla in that cage made say "alright, this is gonna be good". But S2 is my choice for best ANGEL season. Strong character arcs in that one.

Welp, let us know when you start BUFFY S5.

How'd you feel about David when he played Angelus?

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:15 PM

Y'know, it may not be David that I don't find interesting, cause Angelus was a hoot. And I liked him on Buffy, I just don't think the character of Angel is that interesting as a lead. When Max broods(Dark Angel), I feel for her, when Angel broods, I think, 'Go kick some ass, you dummy!' Maybe it's the way he's written or something.

No mood for brood Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MikeyMo:
OK, you go watch Buffy season 5 first. It really is great, with a strong overall arc and some great individual episodes. But I still think Angel S2 is better, and you'll have to check that out at some point. David gets a lot more to do in the second season.

First extra $50 I find goes toward AtS S2, I promise. As long as Serenity isn't in theatres.

Wes Chrisisall

JACQUI

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:22 PM

Your thoughts are not without merit here. Sometimes you just wanna slap Angel around a bit.

But, seriously, give season 2 a chance. It really does improve and tighten up in the second season. It was my fav.

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

GROUNDED

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Y'know, it may not be David that I don't find interesting, cause Angelus was a hoot. And I liked him on Buffy, I just don't think the character of Angel is that interesting as a lead.

I think this was one thing that could really have been mined a bit more. Angel has so much scope for drawing viewer empathy, but they seldom played to that.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:28 PM

Also, why is it that when there's a fight scene involving Faith, the choreography kicks into overdrive? Normally, the fights are good on both series, but not quite the caliber of Dark Angel... except when Faith's involved!!?!
Is her stunt-girl just better than everyone else?

Got Faith? Chrisisall

GROUNDED

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:30 PM

I can't remember a single Dark Angel fight and I've seen pretty much every ep.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
Angel has so much scope for drawing viewer empathy, but they seldom played to that.

Exactly, I wanted less jokes about his brooding, and more info about his immediate inner torment. I wanted to know who he is RIGHT NOW!

Who's da man Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:48 PM

A fight easily remembered is one easily choreographed; if you can't remember them, that' cause they were complex.

Chrisisall

STAKETHELURK

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:01 PM

In the first season of Ats, Angel was still portrayed much as he was on “Buffy,” brooding over vaguely horrible things that happened a century or more ago. But once we get into season two, he starts to brood over things that have just happened, things that we saw play out in real time. We finally see why he’s acting the way he does and how it affects him (but the explanation does not always increase our sympathy--deliberately so). So I think they do take advantage of his brooding later in the show, when it starts becoming rooted in the present—not just “what did I do” but “what am I going to do now that I’m stuck in this (current) situation.” The first season was just feeling out what works and what doesn’t on the show; the second season is when it really gains direction, even when it comes to Angel’s broodiness.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
I can't remember a single Dark Angel fight and I've seen pretty much every ep.

The first time you see Enter the Dragon, there's no way you can remember most of the fights.
On an ep of Buffy or Angel, they're easier to get a grasp on cause they're basic (for the most part) full-contact karate, and thus fairly simple. How many times have you seen it - spinning back kick, backfist, block, straight punch.
So you can say: "the fight where the guy kicked Angel high in the air", cause other than that, all the fights are similar to eachother. Each fight has one or two distinctive moves that mark it.
Dark Angel's choreography was more fluid and inventive, thus fights are harder to distinguish, and even harder to memorize.

Watch 'em again, and see what I mean.

Wing Chun go-se Chrisisall

BATMARLOWE

Thursday, September 1, 2005 3:24 AM

What Stakethelurk said was very well put. Nice round of applause for him.

Maybe the reason for your preference for the Faith fights is because Faith really throws her self into them. She fights with animal instinct and kicking ass is both her mission and something she loves to do and she has no problem with being savage and brutal about it. So they may be choregraphing to her character in that way. And while Eliza isn't doing the heavy lifting, we can see those qualities in her when she's the one on-camera during the fights.

Anyway, just a theory.

Oh, and she's a hot brunette who wears black leather.

ERELLEVENT

Thursday, September 1, 2005 3:44 AM

I don't know I think the Ats fights get alot better after season 1 when they start to do more wire work with the fighting. I wont spoile any specific ones but season 4 & 5 of Angel have some really good ones.

BATMARLOWE

Thursday, September 1, 2005 4:01 AM

Agreed. Mountain Dew, anyone?

STAKETHELURK

Thursday, September 1, 2005 5:12 AM

Quote:
Mountain Dew, anyone?

Oh, yes--but only if I get to keep the snazzy cup.

BATMARLOWE

Thursday, September 1, 2005 6:33 AM

Well that remains to be seen, now doesn't it? : )

GROUNDED

Thursday, September 1, 2005 10:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
A fight easily remembered is one easily choreographed; if you can't remember them, that' cause they were complex.

Chrisisall

1) When I said 'remembered' I didn't mean in the literal sense of recalling every move. Every remembers the kung-fu sequence in the Matrix, but not every punch/kick thrown.
2) When I think about Dark Angel I can't recall Max fighting anyone at all.
3) This is almost certainly because I've only watched each ep once ;)
4) I wouldn't say the fight choreography in Buffy/Angel is simplistic.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, September 1, 2005 1:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I wouldn't say the fight choreography in Buffy/Angel is simplistic.
I didn't say it was, just that it wasn't as fluid or complex as Dark Angel.
(simple full-contact karate doesn't necessarily mean 'simplistic')

Heeeyah Chrisisall

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PARKER6097

Monday, February 27, 2006 1:18 AM

It's true, despite being set in space, Firefly is extremely believable and true to reality. In order to fully enjoy shows like buffy and angel, one has to have the ability to believe in the supernatural, or at least have the suspension of disbelief. Some people just can't do that, and so these shows aren't for them. I think the way Joss writes it he makes it all very believable, but maybe that's because I'm one of those that can accept this fantasy world as it's presented to me.

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 2:56 AM

Sorry to be so late on this, but it just kept reviving to the top of the list. But I agree, per Firefly and Buffy/Angel. Firefly is more 'grown up', as it were. The characters have every day issues and no super secret weapon or powers to help them out.

Anyway, all this has been said to death by now, but I must add one thing. I disagree w/ your comment per Doyle

Quote:
The last show of Angel featuring Doyle should've had me in tears for long after it's end, yet I felt a contrived and quite limited grief.

While this scene didn't have me in tears, much like You're Welcome, it brought back a nostalgia of the 1st couple of seasons where all was new and fresh. I took it as a thank you from Joss and everyone on the show.....

" See where we've come from? We know things could have turned out different, but life doesn't always work out the way we want. Thanks for hangin' with us, we tried our best "

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

PEULSAR5

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 3:15 AM

While I agree Firefly is more adult oriented, it doesn't take away my enjoyment of Buffy or Angel in the slightest. Both shows had excellent fantasy stories that were well written, directed (one would expect no less from Boss Joss)and acted. Sure all the demons seem to know kung-fu and it seemed kind of silly, but I just laughed, shook my head and let myself get caught up in the storyline.

SIMONB

Tuesday, April 11, 2006 6:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
On Buffy, I don't have as much of that problem, Xander is the saving grace for me, I like it MOSTLY for the funny.

I gotta say, I really enjoyed Buffy - up until season 6 when it seemed to lose the plot, so I so far have only season 1-5 on DVD (though am getting season 7 soon) and I love them, though yes, not as good as Firefly (but I love horror and vampires, so I don't have a problem with monsters and demons etc - in fact my favourite episode is Hush - when they can't talk and those wonderfully sinister 'Gentlemen' are going around. I think that's a great show). I also love Buffy for the humour, but also because - at times - they can pull of scary which is cool. (IMHO)

As for Angel, I loved season 1 - dark and brooding, and then by season 3 I just gave up on the show. It turned into a soap opera for me, and I felt the grittiness of season 1 was gone (again IMHO) plus I really don't like Connor.

As for the martial arts? Yeah, I guess I do get bugged by that sometimes - and like you, I never had the problem with Buffy so much. I guess I liked buffy's quirkiness and the fact it was different and fun.

But I also agree with those that say Joss was merely honing his skills for his truly great work to come....

- Shiny. Let's be bad guys.

That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, April 12, 2006 1:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonB:

But I also agree with those that say Joss was merely honing his skills for his truly great work to come....

Yeah, Buffy and Angel were experiments, Firefly was his concentrated perfection.

BTW, I only got to the end of the second season of Angel, and the fifth season of Buffy because of that loss of direction factor; I don't think that would played out the same if FF had gone five or seven seasons...

Chrisisall

VIVABOHEMIA

Wednesday, May 3, 2006 7:00 PM

Well, I tend to think that the main reason that Doyle's send off wasn't as well written as it should have been was because Joss was a little desperate to get rid of him. The actor who played Doyle, Glenn Quinn, was battling a drug addiction and was apparently really difficult to work with. And tragically, he passed away in December of 2002 of a drug overdose. :'-(

I actually did get a little choked up at the end of that episode, but I can see why some people might not have. I don't think that any Buffy fan did not cry when she died...for the second time, anyway. Joss is usually very good at making people care for his characters.

That being said, I am completely and utterly in love with Buffy, Angel, and Firefly. And am rather annoyed at the stupidity of it being cancelled.

Sorry if this is kind of hard to read, there are just so many thoughts that I am trying to get out. :-)

Book: "River, come out from there."
River: "Can't! Too much hair."

EMBERS

Wednesday, May 3, 2006 7:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Grounded, I'll be in trouble soon; Blockbuster has no more Angel for rent! After S1, I gotta go and buy S2!!!! But I also haven't seen Buffy S5!!!!!
Which should I get first? I have a feeling I might like AtS S2 better than BTVS S5, what do you think?

The idea of a Buffybot offends me Chrisisall

um
did you try netflix?
I think they have them all...

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, May 3, 2006 7:17 PM

This was an OLD thread. I bought 2 and didn't like it all that much when it got to Pylea.
So I sold it.

Chrisisall

EMBERS

Wednesday, May 3, 2006 7:38 PM

I thought Pylea was lame too (but I know people who loved it and did you realize that that was Joss who was dressed as a Pylean and did the Dance of Joy?)

but seriously, sign up for netflix...get the first two weeks free (actually I had a thing giving a month free to friends and family, I'll see if I can find it)
and watch Angel's season 3 & 4...

you'll want to own 5 (I bought it because it has some amazing episodes) but you'll still want the continuity of having seen the others....

besides, you can stave off the Firefly/Serenity withdrawl a little longer by turning to Ats when you complete BtVS.

just sayin'

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, May 3, 2006 7:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:

but seriously, sign up for netflix...
besides, you can stave off the Firefly/Serenity withdrawl a little longer by turning to Ats when you complete BtVS.

Netflix is the way to go, I guess. I liked Ats S2, just not enough to keep.
(Where's that Angel Chosen Collection when you need it?)

Chrisisall & Hart

EMBERS

Wednesday, May 3, 2006 8:48 PM

I felt the same way...
I enjoyed seeing Ats straight through once,

and then I watched the whole thing straight through a second time on TV (they were rerunning them all on TNT)

but I don't find myself really wanting to watch them many times like I do Buffy
(have you watched the commentaries? I loved the commentaries Joss did on Restless/S4 finale, and on The Body in S5....)

The growth and development of Wesley's character is very interesting and well done (one of the best things on Ats IMO) and it would be good to see the changes he goes through before skipping ahead to Angel's S5... because even if you get Season 5 to enjoy Spike, you'll find that Wesley really has some of the best episodes.

The whole theme of whether or not it is possible to change the system from within is an interesting one ... but I'll avoid spoilers (mums the word)

CHRISISALL

Thursday, May 4, 2006 2:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:

The whole theme of whether or not it is possible to change the system from within is an interesting one ... but I'll avoid spoilers (mums the word)

That makes you a bit of a tease, don't it?

Chrisisall

EMBERS

Thursday, May 4, 2006 2:53 AM

I'll confess that I think you would enjoy Angel more if you think of it heading somewhere....
in Pylea I felt that we weren't going anywhere interesting, the whole thing seemed incredibly lame & silly...
and in fact they had had to drastically alter the ending of that season
(I think they couldn't get Darla back...or maybe they couldn't get Christian Kane (Lindsay) back...
anyway they did pull that plot line out of a hat and it kinda shows.

but S7 of Ats was a really interesting arc,
it wasn't supposed to be the end (they thought they would have an 8th season, at Christmas they discovered the show was cancelled so they shorted the arc to bring it to and end by the end of S7)

so yeah...a tease...
but in the hopes of intreguing you (I hope)

CHRISISALL

Thursday, May 4, 2006 2:57 AM

That I am...
...more comics to sell for the cause....

Chrisisall, Joss fanboi

RIVER6213

Sunday, June 4, 2006 5:20 AM

Wow! This thread’s a wealth of information! Thanks Chrisisall and everyone else for all of the insight and discussion. I'm done with Angel Season 2 and switched to Buffy and watched it up to season 3 which I'm done with. I've never felt so manipulated emotionally in all my life...good stuff.

I'm going to have to halt my complete addiction to Buffy and Angel, and will pick it back up after September. It's the only way I can maintain a leash on this.

River

CHRISISALL

Sunday, June 4, 2006 12:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I've never felt so manipulated emotionally in all my life...good stuff.

Wait till you get to 5, 6 and 7.

You can't stop the Buffster Chrisisall