I'm ready to start pointing fingers
POSTED BY: embers
UPDATED: Sunday, March 8, 2026 23:08
VIEWED: 10741
PAGE 1 of 1
I heard on the news this morning that when the National Guard finally did arrive in New Orleans on Friday (yesterday...5 days late) they were instructed to evacuate the people stranded in the Hilton (people with food, water and working toilets) BEFORE they were allowed to evacuate those who were really suffering (the poor, the elderly, the sick, small children) in the sports dome.
And now I hear that the President is too good to accept aid from other countries. Countries that are willing to send helicopters, hospital ships, and all kinds of needed trained organized help. No, no, we'll just leave the bodies to rot in the heat and humidity for another week.
I'm sorry, I think it is time to start assigning some blame here.
I would ask all the Browncoats to write to your Senator:
http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm
AND your Congressman:
http://www.house.gov/
people need help desperately now.
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I don't know about Bush,
but your Navy is taking our help :
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/09/02/Canadian_ships_to_l
ouisiana20050902.html
I guess they just don't know exactly what type of help they want yet ?
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this is very sad
babies are without food, old people are dying in the street
http://www.ericblumrich.com/wmf/Hannity-Colmes-Smith-Rivera-freak-in-N
O.wmv
very poor people in this video clip
Even Fox news which normally is very supportive of whitehouse policy says they may have got it very wrong
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they should have known what help they needed 5 days ago,
the Red Cross, and small towns, and hospitals in the area, are all at the breaking point: the few rescue workers they had in the area have been working without rest or relief. And how long do they expect to house refugees in sports stadiums anyway? Why aren't they sending people out to other states? The Governor of Iowa is prepared to immediately take thousands of refugees and offer them immediate residency so they qualify for public housing & food stamps and whatever help they need.
But thank God for Canada...the Canadaians have always been wonderful neighbors, helping after the 9/11 bombing of the WTC, and now helping again...
thank you for the link GinoBiffaroni.
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I just watched JAYNEZTOWN video link...
http://www.ericblumrich.com/wmf/Hannity-Colmes-Smith-Rivera-freak-in-N
O.wmv
Just who the hell is running things anyways ?
There is an intact road and five days later those people are trapped without support...
I'm not even a American and that pisses me off, and what gets me is is six months they'll likely have another 911 style commission to get to the facts and it will be whitewashed again......
I read somewhere else they sent a team to evact the local Hilton ( which had emergency generators, as well as food )
Rivera is reduced to frigging tears...
Maybe the help you need is to get rid of your present government 
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Rivera is reduced to frigging tears...
not everyone at Fox sees it that way, Oreilly is trying to do some spindoctoring politics and balme it on Al-Gore
He says Gore is at fault and to blame for the Hurricane because of some paper Democrats and Al-Gore signed some years ago
It seems this Oreilly either makes fabricated lies up for political means or this guy can't go for a few seconds without throwing in his political slurs
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when this is all done, you yanks should round up some of these idiots...
and make them live in the ruins for five or six years
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Gino, I agree, but they'd be wearing tar and feathers. That is, the ones that weren't hanged.
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To my American friends.
Now is not the time to be pointing fingers.
We know whos at fault.
Nows the time to think up appropriate punishments for Bush and Co.
I really do wonder if george bush will be impeached for what would be a farsicall performance if it wasn't so tragic. Comedy of errors really doesn't say it.
But I suppose he didn't do something really bad like sleep with an intern, just responcible for the deaths of thousands of people.
Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.
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How does "negligent homicide" sound?
Please don't think they give a shit.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
How does "negligent homicide" sound?
Please don't think they give a shit.
How about "Negligent Genocide"?
Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
How does "negligent homicide" sound?
Please don't think they give a shit.
How about "Negligent Genocide"?
Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.
If that was an actual charge, anyone who pressed to continue the Iraq sanctions through the late 90's should be charged with it.
When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
tml
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Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
I heard on the news this morning that when the National Guard finally did arrive in New Orleans on Friday (yesterday...5 days late) they were instructed to evacuate the people stranded in the Hilton (people with food, water and working toilets) BEFORE they were allowed to evacuate those who were really suffering (the poor, the elderly, the sick, small children) in the sports dome.
And now I hear that the President is too good to accept aid from other countries. Countries that are willing to send helicopters, hospital ships, and all kinds of needed trained organized help. No, no, we'll just leave the bodies to rot in the heat and humidity for another week.
Shouldn't we wait until the facts are clear?
There's enough blame to go around. Isn't it better to find out all of the people who made bad decisions and evaluate the whole situation?
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Quote:
Originally posted by evilmike:
Shouldn't we wait until the facts are clear?
I think there has been too much waiting already.
I think we should write to our Senators & Congressman and make sure they know,
we want to know that the nurses and doctors are getting replacements so they can get some rest
(because those replacements have NOT arrived yet)
and we don't want the refugees currently in Houston to be forgotten,
they are not Houston's problem:
we ALL have to help.
write to your Senator:
http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm
AND your Congressman:
http://www.house.gov/
people need help desperately now.
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Quote:
Originally posted by embers:Quote:
Originally posted by evilmike:
Shouldn't we wait until the facts are clear?
I think there has been too much waiting already.
I think we should write to our Senators & Congressman and make sure they know,
we want to know that the nurses and doctors are getting replacements so they can get some rest
(because those replacements have NOT arrived yet)
and we don't want the refugees currently in Houston to be forgotten,
they are not Houston's problem:
we ALL have to help.
I've got no problem with helping and making sure the government does what it supposed to. It's that blame thing that needs time, investigation, and facts.
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Quote:
Originally posted by evilmike:Quote:
Originally posted by embers:Quote:
Originally posted by evilmike:
Shouldn't we wait until the facts are clear?
I think there has been too much waiting already.
I think we should write to our Senators & Congressman and make sure they know,
we want to know that the nurses and doctors are getting replacements so they can get some rest
(because those replacements have NOT arrived yet)
and we don't want the refugees currently in Houston to be forgotten,
they are not Houston's problem:
we ALL have to help.
I've got no problem with helping and making sure the government does what it supposed to. It's that blame thing that needs time, investigation, and facts.
Here is a question for you:
Were you satisfied with the 911 commisions report ?
It seems that waiting for answers doesn't work so well anymore.
When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
tml
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Here is a question for you:
Were you satisfied with the 911 commisions report ?
It seems that waiting for answers doesn't work so well anymore.
And assigning blame without the facts is the only alternative?
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Quote:
Originally posted by evilmike:Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Here is a question for you:
Were you satisfied with the 911 commisions report ?
It seems that waiting for answers doesn't work so well anymore.
And assigning blame without the facts is the only alternative?
I'd like somewhere in the middle... but then again I don't really think blame will fall on those it should anyway... if past history is any judge.
When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
tml
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I'm continually amazed at the Bush blame game going on here. Does anyone understand the scope of this disaster?
To put things in a little perspective, the total area of destruction is BIGGER than the entire country of England! No amount of preparation was enough for damage of this scope, simply because there was no model to base a disaster of this scope on. FEMA's models were considerably lower! They simply weren't ready for this, and a few days notice wasn't nearly enough! The Governor of LA (D) and the Mayor of NO (D) waited until sunday to request federal aid. That wasn't nearly enough time for something this large. Too bad Mother Nature didn't send us all her schedule months in advance, but lets not blame an act of God or nature's unpredictablility. Maybe we should blame the citizens that didn't leave when warned, though that's hardly fair when they've heard these warnings time after time, and the predictions end up being wrong! Guess what people, that's why it's called a prediction. It's educated guess work, and quite simply, no one really knew what would happen. 20/20 hindsight is so much easier!
If there's any obvious blame, it's with the Governor of Louisiana, who waited too long to act, and was more interested in ordering the National Guard to shoot looters than rescue people! We should also question the Mayor of New Orleans, who was the one who ordered the tourists in the Haytt (in an unflooded section of the French Quarter) moved by bus to the Superdome, where he then had them put at the front of the line waiting for busses leaving the city. It seems obvious, that despite his own ranting about his peoples needs, he placed the needs of some tourists in front of his citizens! Don't blame the Guardsmen. They are there to support the local government, not to take charge and invoke martial law. They take their orders from the local and state agencies, not the federal government. (This was well reported on CNN, MSNBC, and FOX News).
Considering how inaccessible New Orleans is to start with, surrounded by three major bodes of water (the gulf, a major lake and the Mississippi river), when you factor in the flooding, it's a miracle help got there when it did! It's also amazing what they've been able to accomplish now that they are on scene.
I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.
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This disaster did not have to be this big. There are at least two things that contributed to the situation spiraling out of control: policy decisions made over the past many years and the implementation of the relief effort. To my mind, there’s no point in pointing fingers about the policy decisions. They are what they are and we have to live with them. Sure it would be nice if FEMA hadn’t been demoted and gutted since Witt left. But it was. Sure it would be nice if the levee repair budgets hadn’t been slashed year after year. But they were. Sure it would be nice if all of the local National Guard troops and equipment were home where they belong. But they aren’t. I could go on and on. But there’s no point. We agreed to the tax cuts and the Iraq War when a majority of voters returned this administration to office. It’s a bit late to start complaining now.
What I can complain about, however, is the implementation of the relief effort. Not the bottom up side of things. I have no complaint about the hospital workers, or the law enforcement agents, or the helicopter crews, or anyone who’s helping out in New Orleans itself. They’ve responded above and beyond the call of duty But they’re spread too thin. They need help. And the people who are supposed to get them that help, the people at the top, let us down. Not so much the city or the state level (the new theme is to tar the mayor and the governor in this weird blame the victims and those on the front lines mentality - although, on further reflection, there are a number of things they failed to do) but moreso the federal level. This is what big government is for, to handle the BIG problems.
I wanted my President on the phone, the moment he found out about the breaks in the levee, kicking ass and taking names. Calling up Fed Ex and taking over half their fleet. Telling the CEO to coordinate with the Red Cross. Within twenty-four hours there should be planes landing with supplies, two planes an hour or better. Get that airport fully staffed and operational yesterday. And start flying in emergency personnel. They’re out there and just chomping at the bit to help. Calling up Amtrak and taking over half their fleet. Telling them they need to be getting a fifteen car passenger train out of New Orleans filled with people every hour. Calling up Union Pacific and every other freight carrier that uses New Orleans and telling them they need to be getting construction equipment and dirt into the city. We can’t use the streets because they’re flooded? We’ll just dump dirt until we can. Calling up Greyhound and getting busses heading towards New Orleans on the double. Calling up every oil company he knows to start setting up fuel depots for the busses and enough aviation fuel to keep the planes flying. Calling up the governor of every neighboring state and telling them that they’re about to get a shitload of refugees coming in. Deal with it. Tell everyone not to worry about the cost, that he’ll go to Congress and beat up every Senator and Congressperson if he has to, but they’ll be reimbursed. Keep your receipts but don’t worry about it. Now is the time for action. Sending the message from the very top, “We’re Americans and we can do anything we set our minds to. We’ve got a lot of people that need help. Let’s do whatever it takes to get the job done.”
New Orleans is the number one port in the United States. One thing they know how to do down there is move mass quantities of stuff in and out. I don’t think the airport, rail lines, docks, and highways into the city were damaged by the hurricane. We should’ve done better. The job will get done. But we got off to a shaky start. People died that didn’t have to die and somebody should pay for that. But it won’t bring anyone back from the dead.
I'm just frustrated.
* editted to spread some blame to the city and state officials as well. No need to be excluding people.
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I must agree whole heartedly with soupcatcher. They should have said to hell with the cost, let's get our people safe. But you have to remember that we are the country of gluttony. We have to have all of everything, and we do not like to share unless it benifits us directly.
And will anything happen to Bush? No. This is the same man that outright lied to us about this "war" we have going on. Everyone knows that he lied, he knows but what did we "all knowing" americans do? We KEPT him in office!
Granted blame needs to be somewhere, and that goes straight to the american people as a whole. We are to blame because we allowed a man who does not even know his native tongue to REMAIN as our president. 
There, that is all I shall say on this topic.....and yes, I am mad that I did not get to go to DragonCon. Maybe if gas was not $5 a gallon I could have saved enough money to go.
Tell you what, the more I watch Firefly I think, horses, yeah. That is a good idea.
gas prices
There's no place I can be
Since I found Serenity
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MAC, you're a moron. Why don't you and AJ go exchange your baseless ignorant excuses between yourselves and leave the conversation to people who really give a crap. I mean it. Just go away, you are callous and stupid beyond belief, and you'd kiss Bush's butt even as he was shitting on you. Which he is.
Please don't think they give a shit.
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And now comes the finger pointing, spinning, and lying from our favorite White House team! Get the popcorn, and count the lies, its going to be fun! Already, the White House (and its stupid synchophants) are blurring the timeline, and obscuring Bush's itinerary from Aug 27 through Sep 2. Now Michael Chertoff- the man who is supposed to be in charge of Homeland Security- says:
Quote:." www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/03/katrina.chertoff/index.html
...government planners did not predict such a disaster ever could occur.... Chertoff, fielding questions from reporters, said government officials did not expect both a powerful hurricane and a breach of levees that would flood the city of New Orleans.
Compare this to what his immediate underling Michael Brown said a couple days ago:
Quote:edition.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/02/hurricane.drill/index.html
In a five-day, tabletop exercise last summer, emergency preparedness officials faced an imaginary "worst-case scenario" in which a hurricane hit the New Orleans, Louisiana, area... Participants drew up action plans for dealing with the storm's aftermath in which calls for evacuation were partially heeded, water pumps were overwhelmed, corpses floated in the streets and as many as 60,000 people died -- mostly by drowning.
And experts have been predicting the magnitude of this disaster for years
Quote:www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/28/katrina.doomsday/
Ivor van Heerden, deputy director of the Louisiana State University Hurricane Center and director of the Center for the Study of Public Health Impacts of Hurricanes in Baton Rouge {said}
Floodwaters from the east would carry toxic waste from the "Industrial Canal" area, nicknamed after the chemical plants there. From the west, floodwaters would flow through an industrial complex that includes refineries and chemical plants... "So, we're looking at a bowl full of highly contaminated water with contaminated air flowing around and, literally, very few places for anybody to go where they'll be safe." The levees intended to protect the city vary in height, from as low as 10 feet above sea level to about 14 feet, he said. They too are vulnerable because they are made of earth, he said... Walter Maestri, emergency management director in neighboring Jefferson Parish ... "The way it's described, we describe it here, is Lake Pontchartrain has now become Lake New Orleans" he told CNN in 2004.
You know, the BUsh White House has been peculiarly inept about responding to disaster. (They've done a great job of creating it, tho. Just look at Iraq.)
Please don't think they give a shit.
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Here is the notice of how the planning was outsourced
Quote:
June 9, 2004
IEM Inc., a Baton Rouge, La.-based emergency management and homeland security consultant, announced it will lead the development of a catastrophic hurricane disaster plan for Southeast Louisiana and the City of New Orleans under a more than half a million dollar contract with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security/Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA).
www.insurancejournal.com/news/southcentral/2004/06/09/43008.htm
And just check how prescient their model was! They planned for
Quote:http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1022/1386/1600/extract.jpeg
'Sustaining winds of 120mph... destroyed over 75% of the structures in its path, and left the majority of New Orleans under 15-20 feet of water... Sheltering, temporary housing, and temporary medical care' were chosen as areas to focus on 'functional plans' were put in place, that can be 'implemented immediately'.
If the response was poor, it wasn't for lack of imagination or planning. So...
Please don't think they give a shit.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gennie:
I must agree whole heartedly with soupcatcher. They should have said to hell with the cost, let's get our people safe. But you have to remember that we are the country of gluttony. We have to have all of everything, and we do not like to share unless it benifits us directly.
Except for the $350 million donated to disaster relief or the $10.5 billion aid package, right?
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:Quote:
Originally posted by evilmike:
And assigning blame without the facts is the only alternative?
I'd like somewhere in the middle... but then again I don't really think blame will fall on those it should anyway... if past history is any judge.
Remember, I'm all for people getting the blame they deserve. I just don't think it serves the issue to make charges without information. For example, I think the charges made at the start of the thread were inaccurate -- how do we point fingers based on that?
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Quote:Could we please stop using that ridiculous little sound bite?
Originally posted by MacBaker:
I'm continually amazed at the Bush blame game going on here.
Anytime someone is called into question as to his actions or in-actions regarding the deaths of people it is a serious matter. I doubt that Charles Manson feels that he was the victim of the 'Manson Blame Game', rather that he was judged on his doings.
I doubt Mac, that you realize the scope of the screw up here.
Or that you just don't WANT to believe your president and your government don't care that much about the average citizen.
Snake Plissken would be ashamed of your blind support of these thugs. No, that's right, he doesn't give a shit. And he's still a more caring soul than our president.
Chrisisall
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Quote:
And the Oscar goes to...
Originally posted by SimonWho:
Chrisisall
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Quote:Bush fans take note of these two very important points!
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
I wanted my President on the phone, the moment he found out about the breaks in the levee, kicking ass and taking names.
New Orleans is the number one port in the United States. One thing they know how to do down there is move mass quantities of stuff in and out.
Chrisisall
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Quote:This was an opportunity for the government to do something right. And AGAIN they made choices that got people killed. Why do you care that we bash a creep?
Originally posted by lynchaj:
This a major catastrophe and national tragedy and to you it's just another cheap trick to bash President Bush. What a bunch of mean spirited opportunistic vultures. You make me sick.
I think that you're basically a nice guy, and I try to keep a civil tongue in my head, but this is the wrong time and place to defend the hollow of spirit.
In the truest Buddist way I accept you as my brother. But bro, you're being an idiot. And if you were in front of me, talkin' as you do, I'm afraid I'd be bound to try and knock some sense into that thick skull of yours.
Open your eyes and close your mouth.
And watch how much Bush smiles all the time, and giggles like a kid that's stolen stuff his dad won't find out about.
Oh, and intelligent people that buy into bullshit to make themselves feel better make me sick.
Far from the funny Chrisisall
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They are continuing to make bad decisions...
the federal government has decided to reject all offers from other states to take in the refugees who wish to come.
I had mentioned before that Gov. Vilsack of Iowa was offering immediate residency status to those from Lousiana, Mississippi, and Alabama who have to start over. They will get immediate public housing and food stamps and other state aide in starting over.
Similar offers were made by
Minnesota
Indiana
Pennsylvania
South Carolina and other states
and these were rejected out of hand.
The federal government wants to keep thousands of people contained in sports arenas without even offering them the choice. I believe that this is a terrible mistake.
People should be able to have options.
They should never be at the mercy of ...
(well I don't want to start swearing here).
Again, I ask people to use those links at the beginning of this thread:
complain to your Senator and Congressman if you feel that this national crisis is being mishandled.
Please please do something to help the people.
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I don't know where they were taken, but it seems both the superdome and the convention center have FINALLY been evacuated.... in the Canadian press anyway :
http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/112583279
9269_61?hub=topstories
" National Guardsmen moved out the last 300 survivors in the Superdome, which had held some 20,000 people earlier in the week.
Also, the New Orleans Convention Center was "almost empty," according to the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA).
As many as 25,000 people gathered there in the immediate aftermath of the storm.
Authorities believe there are now about 40,000 more people to rescue from the New Orleans disaster zone. "
So at least now, we can be gratefull that something is starting to happen...
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There may be massive damages to the economy, job loss, buisness destroyed by looting, homes wrecked, old people dying.
100 billion dollars of Damage to the US Economy ?
FEMA Chief: "Victims Bear Some Responsibility."
Michael Brown also agreed with other public officials that the death toll in the city could reach into the thousands.
No one knows how many people were killed by Hurricane Katrina and how many more succumbed waiting to be rescued. But the bodies are everywhere: hidden in attics, floating in the ruined city, crumpled in wheelchairs, abandoned on highways.
"I think it's evident it's in the thousands," Health and Human Services Secretary Michael Leavitt said Sunday on CNN, echoing predictions by city and state officials last week about the death toll.
Craig Vanderwagen, rear admiral of the U.S. Public Health Service, said one morgue alone, at a St. Gabriel prison, expected 1,000 to 2,000 bodies.
"We need to prepare the country for what's coming,"
Homeland Security Secretary
Michael Chertoff said on "Fox News Sunday." "We are going to uncover people who died, maybe hiding in houses, got caught by the flood. ... It is going to be about as ugly of a scene as I think you can imagine." Police Superintendent Eddie Compass said that two of his officers have committed suicide, including one who had just learned his wife had died.
Residents in Harrison County, Mississippi, complained about the slow pace of the removal of bodies. People in one Biloxi neighborhood showed CNN the body of their neighbor, wedged under a porch. They said emergency officials are aware of the body and told them not to remove it. In another Biloxi neighborhood, residents said they found 25 bodies washed up from the floodwaters.
Many Refugees are running and fleeing to Texas. About 15,000 people have been evacuated to Houston's Astrodome, which officials say is filled to capacity.
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You're right- it's a new low. But I wasn't taking a cheap shot at Bush. Your identity is so intertwined (I think the psychological term is enmeshed) with Bush's you can't tell I'm taking a cheap shot at you. Not Bush.
I've been trying mightily to keep civil. I've edited out more than you can imagine. But I've been watching this disaster unfold AS A DISASTER since at least Sunday, BEFORE landfall and at the same time I have seen pictures of Bush eating cake, playing guitar, playing golf, making fatuous comparisons between the war in Iraq and WWII and pushing his Medicare plan...!! On Wednesday... WEDNESDAY... three full days after he got a request for aid and two full days after the levees broke- he spent 90 SECONDS in a 40-minute speech "talking about" New Orleans and he still had DONE nothing. NOTHING! Can you explain that? Can you defend that?
Well, apparently you can. And you wil. And you do. At least Bush (or his political handlers) has seen the error of his ways. But YOU??? You defend every Bush disaster to the bitter end, fighting rear-guard actions on points that even Bush has abandoned. Wow. That's all I can say. Wow.
So I deeply and humbly apologize to everyone on this board for the graphic visual. But AJ- Ya gotta wake up, man. What will it take for you to figure out- you ain't Bush. He ain't you. And really, really...
Please don't think they give a shit.
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BTW- Since the White House really doesn't (see my signature)... donate, donate, donate! The hardest part will be six months or a year, when many refugees still have no jobs, no permanent place to go, and attention is diverted to the latest crisis. Please don't forget the victims too soon. Set an anniversary alarm for six months, for a year, or write it into you PDA or diary. Make sure we ALL follow up. And use the link in the very first post to write your Congressmen/ women. This is not right. Things in Washington have GOT to change because...
Please don't think they give a shit.
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Quote:Not just AJ, but millions of Americans who voted for the man with the lowest IQ ever to hold the office.
Originally posted by SignyM:
But AJ- Ya gotta wake up, man. What will it take for you to figure out- you ain't Bush. He ain't you. And really, really...Please don't think they give a shit.
I haven't seen opinion polls, but I would guess the lack of timely and adequate response to the disaster isn't gonna win Bush any brownie points with voters.
There may be a chance to break this particular cycle, as long as the Democrats don't back a total loser to run.
Any hope?
Chrisisall
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I wasnt going to get involved in this thread; my blood runs far too hot towards the administration for me to keep a level head long enough to post at length without ranting. But this is somthing I think everyone posting here should see, especially those of you that would defend this administration at all costs.
Bush appointed one of his cronies, Michael Brown, to run FEMA before this crisis. Brown had zero experience to do the job, and the organization was subsumed into the blatantly incompetent Chertoff's DHLS just to make matters worse (Chertiff is quoted as saying that he found out about the Conv. Center victims in the morning paper - Just the kind of guy I want running the DHLS, let me tell ya). Here's the article, about what was going on, compared to what the people in charge on the Federal level said was happening. If you're still defending this administration after this, I'd be shocked.
Quote:
The big disconnect on New Orleans
The official version; then there's the in-the-trenches version
NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- Diverging views of a crumbling New Orleans emerged Thursday, with statements by some federal officials in contradiction with grittier, more desperate views from the streets. By late Friday response to those stranded in the city was more visible.
But the conflicting views on Thursday came within hours, sometimes minutes of each of each other, as reflected in CNN's transcripts. The speakers include Michael Brown, chief of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, Homeland Security Director Michael Chertoff, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, evacuee Raymond Cooper, CNN correspondents and others. Here's what they had to say:
Conditions in the Convention Center
FEMA chief Brown: We learned about that (Thursday), so I have directed that we have all available resources to get that convention center to make sure that they have the food and water and medical care that they need. (See video of Brown explaining how news reports alerted FEMA to convention center chaos. -- 2:11)
Mayor Nagin: The convention center is unsanitary and unsafe, and we are running out of supplies for the 15,000 to 20,000 people. (Hear Nagin's angry demand for soldiers. 1:04)
CNN Producer Kim Segal: It was chaos. There was nobody there, nobody in charge. And there was nobody giving even water. The children, you should see them, they're all just in tears. There are sick people. We saw... people who are dying in front of you.
Evacuee Raymond Cooper: Sir, you've got about 3,000 people here in this -- in the Convention Center right now. They're hungry. Don't have any food. We were told two-and-a-half days ago to make our way to the Superdome or the Convention Center by our mayor. And which when we got here, was no one to tell us what to do, no one to direct us, no authority figure.
Uncollected corpses
Brown: That's not been reported to me, so I'm not going to comment. Until I actually get a report from my teams that say, "We have bodies located here or there," I'm just not going to speculate.
Segal: We saw one body. A person is in a wheelchair and someone had pushed (her) off to the side and draped just like a blanket over this person in the wheelchair. And then there is another body next to that. There were others they were willing to show us. ( See CNN report, 'People are dying in front of us' -- 4:36 )
Evacuee Cooper: They had a couple of policemen out here, sir, about six or seven policemen told me directly, when I went to tell them, hey, man, you got bodies in there. You got two old ladies that just passed, just had died, people dragging the bodies into little corners. One guy -- that's how I found out. The guy had actually, hey, man, anybody sleeping over here? I'm like, no. He dragged two bodies in there. Now you just -- I just found out there was a lady and an old man, the lady went to nudge him. He's dead.
Hospital evacuations
Brown: I've just learned today that we ... are in the process of completing the evacuations of the hospitals, that those are going very well.
CNN's Dr. Sanjay
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Thanks, Seven%, that's something I haven't seen. Bush supporters will no doubt say that it's anecdotal, that it's rhetoric, that it's liberal spin, etc. Whatever they need to tell themselves so they can keep believing that they elected a good man, and that they're not bad themselves for doing so.
Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
BTW- Since the White House really doesn't (see my signature)... donate, donate, donate! The hardest part will be six months or a year, when many refugees still have no jobs, no permanent place to go, and attention is diverted to the latest crisis. Please don't forget the victims too soon. Set an anniversary alarm for six months, for a year, or write it into you PDA or diary. Make sure we ALL follow up. And use the link in the very first post to write your Congressmen/ women. This is not right. Things in Washington have GOT to change because...
Please don't think they give a shit.
The response from feds and goverment is unforgivable ?
Watch this video clip - Broussard, says he still doesn't have the resources needed to save the lives
www.ameratsu.com/media/vid/nbc/nbc_mtp_aaron_broussard_jefferson_parri
sh_050904a.wmv
Aaron Broussard tells a heart wrenching story
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
MAC, you're a moron. Why don't you and AJ go exchange your baseless ignorant excuses between yourselves and leave the conversation to people who really give a crap. I mean it. Just go away, you are callous and stupid beyond belief, and you'd kiss Bush's butt even as he was shitting on you. Which he is.
Please don't think they give a shit.
Finally SignyM, you show your ass, and what a true loser you really are! The only one shitting on people is you, because you attack anyone that doesn't worship at your alter of half truths and kneejerk theories! You've become the Michael Moore of this forum!
How dare you assume to tell me (or anyone) where I can or cannot post!
Now, here's a few facts that clearly point where the blame really belongs!
1) People talk about Bush cutting the funding for the levees. That is NOT true. Proposed increases not being passed are not "cuts". if that were the case, Clinton and Carter also cut funding for the levees.
2) Disaster warning, evacuation and relief and civil protection in the US, are state and local responsibilities. Even the "National Guard" is under the control state goverenor not the President! National Guard units only come under federal control when they are given deployment orders that take them outside of the US.
3) Almost all US Army personel and equipment are in the US, not in Iraq. 88% of all personel, MP's, planes, helicopters, trucks and supplies are it the US, 12% are depoyed outside the US in all operations including Iraq and Afghanistan!
http://www.punditguy.com/2005/09...5/09/ why_1.html
The above link has pictures of 205 school buses sitting in water. Why didn't the local, parish, or state officials use those buses to get people who did have a way out, transportation out before the hurricane hit?
http://instapundit.com/archives/...ives/ 025310.php
The New Orleans Regional Transportation Authority has hundreds of buses, none of them were used to get people out of the path of the hurricane! Why?
http://www.riehlworldview.com/ ca...and_securi.html
From the above link, "It was on the radio tonight, that Galveston, TX had its school buses fueled and ready to roll in case Katrina turned their way - not so for New Orleans." So, the leadership in Galveston were ready with their buses and the leadership in New Orleans were not. Tell me again that this is the President's fault? Also from the above link, "Ultimately, the local government and even the State Government in LA has to shoulder their share of the blame for ineffective planning. They knew full well what a storm like Katrina could do - including to the levee system."
I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.
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Quote:
Originally posted by MacBaker:
http://www.punditguy.com/2005/09...5/09/ why_1.html
The above link has pictures of 205 school buses sitting in water. Why didn't the local, parish, or state officials use those buses to get people who did have a way out, transportation out before the hurricane hit?
http://instapundit.com/archives/...ives/ 025310.php
The New Orleans Regional Transportation Authority has hundreds of buses, none of them were used to get people out of the path of the hurricane! Why?
I keep hearing the right-wing spin about the buses in the flooded lot. I figured this out myself before I heard it on the news, so maybe you all couldn't or didn't, so here goes.
The city of NO had hundreds of buses- But here's the $$$million question- Who's gonna drive them when the bus drivers are evacuating town ahead of the hurricane? There's an amusing story about a kid stealing a bus and driving 100 victims to Texas, but generally, there was no one to drive the buses. This is not the Mayor's fault. Some bus drivers stayed and took people out. Some didnt. That pic doesnt mean a damn thing other than there were no drivers for those buses.
I can't believe people are bashing Nagin. Here's a guy who managed to get over 90% of his city out of town before a disater hit. 90%. That's an amazing feat for an impoverished community. The people that were supposed to drive the buses left when told. What was Nagin supposed to do? Hold the bus drivers hostage against their will ("You all stay here while Katrina comes barrelling down on you")? Open the lots to let anyone take a bus that wanted to? While I'm sure that's a nice thought, it probably didn't cross his mind while trying to get everyone that could go the hell outta dodge. Especially since they thought the Dome would be safe, assuming the gov't came right away (and we saw how that played out).
While I do hold Bush responsible, I won't pin this entirely on him for the purposes of this thread (don't get me started about why he was in another state talking Soc. Sec. and playing guitar while a Cat 5 hurricane was heading for NO, not to mention his 'working' vacation- The seat of our govt is Washington, not Podunk Texas, I dont give a shit how much telecommunications tech has advanced- I expect my leader to be there). This falls at the feet of Chertoff and Brown. God forbid these jackasses should be in charge if a terrorist attack hits the US.
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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.
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And since I'm on an article posting streak, here's another good clip about something many of you might not have known. I'd say this might also change minds, but hey, Bush said he doesn't read newspapers, so I'm betting most of his followers don't either (notice how I no longer call them "supporters"- ask yourselves why that is). This is from the Guardian -I put a bold on what I think are the really good parts, so take a gander.
Quote:
A year ago the US army corps of engineers proposed to study how New Orleans could be protected from a catastrophic hurricane, but the Bush administration ordered that the research not be undertaken. After a flood killed six people in 1995, the Congress created the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project. Operated by the corps of engineers, levees and pumping stations were strengthened and renovated. In 2001, when George Bush became president, the Federal Emergency Management Agency issued a report stating that a hurricane striking New Orleans was one of the three most likely potential disasters - after a terrorist attack on New York City. But by 2003 the federal funding essentially dried up as it was drained into the Iraq war. By 2004, the Bush administration cut the corps of engineers' request for holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain by more than 80%. By the beginning of this year, the administration's additional cuts, reduced by 44% since 2001, forced the corps to impose a hiring freeze. The Senate debated adding funds for fixing levees, but it was too late.
Or maybe this will catch your eye-
Quote:
"My administration's climate change policy will be science-based," President Bush declared. But in 2002, when the Environmental Protection Agency submitted a study on global warming to the UN, reflecting its expert research, Bush derided it as "a report put out by a bureaucracy", and excised the climate change assessment from its annual report. The next year, when the EPA issued its first comprehensive Report on the Environment, stating: "Climate change has global consequences for human health and the environment", the White House simply removed the line and all such conclusions. At the G8 meeting in Gleneagles this year, Bush stymied any common action on global warming. But scientists have continued to accumulate impressive data on the rising temperature of the oceans, producing more severe hurricanes
But hey, go on thinking that the GOP establishment in Washington cares about you. And before someone pulls a 'blame Clinton' or 'it's all politicians,' I'm going to lay down the law right now - Clinton isn't President, and the Dems do not control all 3 branches of govt. -
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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:Quote:
Originally posted by MacBaker:
http://www.punditguy.com/2005/09...5/09/ why_1.html
The above link has pictures of 205 school buses sitting in water. Why didn't the local, parish, or state officials use those buses to get people who did have a way out, transportation out before the hurricane hit?
http://instapundit.com/archives/...ives/ 025310.php
The New Orleans Regional Transportation Authority has hundreds of buses, none of them were used to get people out of the path of the hurricane! Why?
The city of NO had hundreds of buses- But here's the $$$million question- Who's gonna drive them when the bus drivers are evacuating town ahead of the hurricane? There's an amusing story about a kid stealing a bus and driving 100 victims to Texas, but generally, there was no one to drive the buses. This is not the Mayor's fault. Some bus drivers stayed and took people out. Some didnt. That pic doesnt mean a damn thing other than there were no drivers for those buses.
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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.
Amazing how you selectively respond to two of the sources I posted, but conveniently choose to ignore the last one.
http://www.riehlworldview.com/ ca...and_securi.html
From the above link, "It was on the radio tonight, that Galveston, TX had its school buses fueled and ready to roll in case Katrina turned their way - not so for New Orleans." So, the leadership in Galveston were ready with their buses and the leadership in New Orleans were not.
Seems that Galveston TX had a plan in place, with drivers! The obvious answer to your million dollar question is, Galveston had a plan in place and was ready to implement it, but New Orleans didn't! It's not that hard to figure out, but obviously many here want so desperately to blame the Federal Government for everything, that simple facts like this don't fit into their agenda! The majority of these people managed to make it to the Superdome and Convention Center on their own. Why weren't they then picked up from this staging area before the storm hit sunday night. Again I point out that Galveston had a plan like that in place! Why didn't New Orleans! God forbid we take the local government to task for this, when it's so much easier to blame the federal government.
I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.
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A response to Sevenpercent's Global Warming post:
S. Fred Singer, a former director of the US Weather Satellite Service and Professor Emeritus of Environmental Sciences from the University of Virginia, wrote this about Global Warming:
"The overwhelming balance of evidence shows no appreciable warming trend in the past 20 years, nor indeed since about 1940. While some surface readings in far-away locations (mainly Eastern Siberia and the tropical oceans) show warming trend, the well-maintained stations in the United States do not.
"Weather satellite data, the only true global measurements we have, show no warming. Neither do the independent data from weather balloons, which confirm the satellites in all respects. In addition, so-called proxy data, i.e., non-thermometer records from tree rings, ice cores, etc., show no warming."
Unless you include the past 10,000 years since the last Ice Age. Yes, in that case, the Earth has most certainly been enjoying almost consistent warming. If it were not, the history of man would be very different. Man, of course, is blamed by the Greens as the "cause" of the current "warming" which is not occurring. Mankind does not warm the earth. The Sun does that.
All this talk of too much carbon dioxide (CO2) is just nonsense. The climate of the earth was warmer 1000, 3000, and 6,000 years ago. All periods during which human civilization was developing. At the time of the dinosaurs, CO2 levels were five times those that exist today. The long-range threat to earth isn't too much CO2, it's too little!
It would be a naive kindness to assume that EPA Director Christie Whitman is simply uninformed. Were that the case, she would do herself and the nation a big favor by keeping her mouth shut about the subject of global warming.
Instead, she has been all over the place talking about it being "a real phenomenon" and even suggesting we might have to put "caps" on carbon dioxide. It turns out, though, that someone must have explained things to President Bush because, on March 14, the White House put out the word that it does not favor regulating CO2 emissions from power plants. He also made it clear that he takes a very dim view of the UN Kyoto Climate Control treaty.
Carbon Dioxide is a natural, abundant chemical that is essential to the growth of all plants and trees. You and every other member of the planet's six billion human population emits CO2 every time they exhale. Termites produce ten times the amount of C02 than all the fossil fuels burned in a year worldwide. The technology of energy production, transportation, etc., has been calculated to be only 0.04 per cent. The UN Kyoto Climate Control Treaty is intended to control that! Do you think 0.04 percent has any effect? The notion of calling CO2 a "pollutant" is ludicrous.
Recent scientific research is also disproving claims that global warming is causing the sea level to dangerously rise. In October 1999, a team of scientists led by Dr. Howard Conway of the University of Washington reported that the massive West Antarctic Ice Sheet (WAIS), considered to be especially vulnerable to alleged global warming, is not melting due to human influences. Dr. Conway said the gradual melting of the WAIS "appears to be part of an ongoing natural cycle" of melting that began when the ice age ended 10,000 years ago. It will take several thousand years before this melting ice sheet would even begin to affect seaboard cities - assuming the Earth doesn't enter a new ice age.
In light of such mounting evidence, environmentalist efforts to claim scientific support for the global warming theory are foundering. The Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS), a liberal advocacy organization, points to the 1,500 scientists who signed a 1997 UCS document endorsing major cuts in greenhouse gases as evidence of scientific support for the global warming theory. But since then, nearly 17,000 scientists have signed a petition, organized by the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine, which declares that, "There is no convincing scientific evidence th
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Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
A year ago the US army corps of engineers proposed to study how New Orleans could be protected from a catastrophic hurricane, but the Bush administration ordered that the research not be undertaken. After a flood killed six people in 1995, the Congress created the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project. Operated by the corps of engineers, levees and pumping stations were strengthened and renovated. In 2001, when George Bush became president, the Federal Emergency Management Agency issued a report stating that a hurricane striking New Orleans was one of the three most likely potential disasters - after a terrorist attack on New York City. But by 2003 the federal funding essentially dried up as it was drained into the Iraq war. By 2004, the Bush administration cut the corps of engineers' request for holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain by more than 80%. By the beginning of this year, the administration's additional cuts, reduced by 44% since 2001, forced the corps to impose a hiring freeze. The Senate debated adding funds for fixing levees, but it was too late.
Let's clear this up a little. Bush didn't cut the Corps funding on Lake Pontchartrain, he cut an increase in funding by 80%. Essentually giving 20% more than the Clinton Administation, His Father's, Reagan's and Carter's Administations did. Yes, clearly that wasn't enough, but if you are going to take him to task for this, you DO have to take the previous administations to task for the same reasons! Sorry but your attempt to dodge that by saying "I'm going to lay down the law right now - Clinton isn't President, and the Dems do not control all 3 branches of govt.", is weak! When Clinton was elected, the Dems did control all three branches of govt and by a larger margin than Bush did when he was first elected. Why didn't the Clinton Administration increase funding back then? Both parties are equally accountable for this!
I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.
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Quote:
Amazing how you selectively respond to two of the sources I posted, but conveniently choose to ignore the last one
I didnt "conveniently forget" the link, so don't think I was ignoring your 'facts'- I'll go back and include it, if you want, will that make you happy? I was trying to edit so that I didnt have a 27 mile long quoted post, and just grabbed at the meat of your argument- It won't change my response in the least- What Galveston, which wasn't in a state of emergency did, vs. what NO did, is not the issue- I love how you try to spin this - I don't recall Galveston evacuating 500000 people, do you? They had their buses ready? Yes, because they would have had DRIVERS, which N.O. did not have, because they weren't EVACUATING GALVESTON - Not once did I hear, "everyone leave Galveston" - If I had, I bet you dollars to doughnuts there would have been a bunch of empty buses in Galveston sitting in a lot- Holy cow- To quote a movie, you have to be the dumbest smart person I have ever seen in my life-
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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.
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Quote:
Even NASA doesn't agree with the EPA on this:
http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/essd06oct97_1.htm
Wow - Impressive - Why don't you show me an article in a more recent publication? One reputable source (out of 3), but you pulled up a NASA article almost 10 years old- I just watched a professor of climatology the other night discussing how global warming was a very real threat - His point goes on to dispute your other statement here
Quote:
and no one can prove or disprove that global warming has anything to do with the higher number of hurricanes now
There aren't any more or less hurricanes than ever before- The climatologist explained it thusly: Global warming creates a rise in water temperature, which is the fuel that drives a hurricane- The warmer the water gets, the stronger the hurricane - Not an increase in amount, an increase in strength- And even you say you believe warming exists (well, you're not saying it doesn't exist, so I suppose you can weasel)- So if we have a govt that refuses to even acknowledge there may be a problem because they are anti-science......
I'd say you get the picture, but it's looking like you probably don't want to see it -
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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.
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Quote:
Sorry but your attempt to dodge that by saying "I'm going to lay down the law right now - Clinton isn't President, and the Dems do not control all 3 branches of govt.", is weak!
Weak? Weak is your retreat back to this bullshit that conservatives go back to every time. All you cons did during his entire Presidency was bash Clinton, yet every time you get backed into a corner you pull out the "he did it too" defense. Screw that. He's not President. Where does the buck stop with you people? This hasn't been Clinton's Presidency for 6 years. The Dems havent controlled congress since, what, 1994?
Yeah. They cut an increase in funding to build up the levees, not 'the funding.' Because if they couldn't do it with the money they had, and needed an increase, they were just magically going to be able to with a fraction of what they needed. What you are saying is if I have $5, but need $10 to do a job, and you say, well, I gave you $1 instead of $5, so you have $6 but hey, I didnt take the funding away totally, so don't blame me, then that's BS.
Then when the job doesn't get finished? It's the person's fault who wasn't even in charge anymore. Priceless.
Take the talking points somewhere else, they don't hold up to scrutiny.
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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:Quote:
Amazing how you selectively respond to two of the sources I posted, but conveniently choose to ignore the last one
I didnt "conveniently forget" the link, so don't think I was ignoring your 'facts'- I'll go back and include it, if you want, will that make you happy? I was trying to edit so that I didnt have a 27 mile long quoted post, and just grabbed at the meat of your argument- It won't change my response in the least- What Galveston, which wasn't in a state of emergency did, vs. what NO did, is not the issue- I love how you try to spin this - I don't recall Galveston evacuating 500000 people, do you? They had their buses ready? Yes, because they would have had DRIVERS, which N.O. did not have, because they weren't EVACUATING GALVESTON - Not once did I hear, "everyone leave Galveston" - If I had, I bet you dollars to doughnuts there would have been a bunch of empty buses in Galveston sitting in a lot- Holy cow- To quote a movie, you have to be the dumbest smart person I have ever seen in my life-
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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.
Oh please! This is a question of preparedness! Galveston was in the predicted path of Katrina too, and they took steps to prepare for it if it did. New Orleans wasn't EVACUATING either when Galveston made these plans! I don't have to spin this, you are! The fact remains that an other city saw the potential problem and had a plan in place to deal with it that New Orleans obviously didn't consider. Your bet is empty, because there is no way to prove your "empty buses in Galveston" prediction eitherway, but I will tell you I believe that if drivers were told this was needed, and if they were told that they could potentially save hundreds of lives, they would have done their jobs proudly. Sorry, but my estimation of the average citizen (these bus drivers) isn't as pessimistic as yours. I guess it makes you the smartest dumb person I've ever seen in my life, that you can't see how the New Orleans government dropped the ball on this
while another coastal city had a sound plan in place. New Orleans already ordered their people to either leave the city, or to go to the Superdome for shelter, and clearly from the news footage, they came in droves. Why didn't the local government take this a step further and start bussing these people out of harms way before Katrina hit? Sorry, but the logic escapes me.
I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:Quote:
Sorry but your attempt to dodge that by saying "I'm going to lay down the law right now - Clinton isn't President, and the Dems do not control all 3 branches of govt.", is weak!
Weak? Weak is your retreat back to this bullshit that conservatives go back to every time. All you cons did during his entire Presidency was bash Clinton, yet every time you get backed into a corner you pull out the "he did it too" defense. Screw that. He's not President. Where does the buck stop with you people? This hasn't been Clinton's Presidency for 6 years. The Dems havent controlled congress since, what, 1994?
Yeah. They cut an increase in funding to build up the levees, not 'the funding.' Because if they couldn't do it with the money they had, and needed an increase, they were just magically going to be able to with a fraction of what they needed. What you are saying is if I have $5, but need $10 to do a job, and you say, well, I gave you $1 instead of $5, so you have $6 but hey, I didnt take the funding away totally, so don't blame me, then that's BS.
Then when the job doesn't get finished? It's the person's fault who wasn't even in charge anymore. Priceless.
Take the talking points somewhere else, they don't hold up to scrutiny.
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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.
Bull! First you make the common mistake that anyone that doesn't agree with your particualr political agenada must be from the other side! I'm not a Con. Personally, I don't like Bush anymore than Clinton, but I do take issue with blaming the federal government with this disaster! Natural disasters are the responsibility of the states affected. Yes, FEMA is to provide support, but the state government has to request it. The Govenor of LA didn't request this help until sunday, hours before the hurricane hit. Given the massive size (again covering more square miles than England), that clearly wasn't nearly enough notice! Though I admit that I doubt any notice would have been enough, simply because of the sheer volume of destruction, and the lack of access into N.O. due to flooding!
Second, I stated myself that the levee funding obviously wasn't enough, but somehow you feel that years of ignoring the problem by both parties isn't the issue, only that the current administation didn't do anything. No where in my post did I say that giving them a 1 for every 10 they requested absolved them of anything! What I was pointing out, was that every admisitration since Carter failed to respond to this issue, and they are all responseable. Typically, for a LIB, you don't want your party of choice blamed, only the party you disagree with. (see how I assumed your party affiliation just like you did me?)
The buck stops with both parties. Neither did what was needed!
The current administration isn't to blame for the aftermath of this disaster. Once they got on scene, they did an amazing job!
The Airlift rescue program on friday and saturday was quite simply amazing. Texas should also be praised for their support of the refugees during all of this, and now other states are stepping up to take any of the overflow that Texas can't handle. We as a country are coming together and doing great deeds.
The federal government is responsible for the levee issue, but all branches and parties going back 20 years should be comdemed for not taking enough action. In retort to this though, the real question is what action to be taken. Many experts claim that these levees built to protect New Orleans, are causing a serious environmental problem on the Louisiana coastline. Because of these very same levees, silt from the Mississippi is no longer being fed through a vast series of bayous and mashlands, and that the coastline is eroding at an estimated 75 square miles a year because of it. Eventually, New Orleans would become a man made island, surrounded by water and protected by a series of levees that would have to be even taller than current Amry Corps pla
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Quote:Mac- If you had read one of my earlier posts, you would know that I was the FIRST to bring up the evacuation problem. What I said was
Now, here's a few facts that clearly point where the blame really belongs!
Quote:So- you clearly don't understand my viewpoint.
Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 09:02 BTW- I'm not sparing the local government from criticism either. I know that you want to save evacuation to the last possible minute, but I thought it was delayed about a half-day too long. And when I saw those long lines of idling cars on the outbound freeways and three lanes empty in the other direction I thought... Geee, can't they just re-route traffic and designate 5/6 lanes "outbound"? Or do they have magic one-way concrete that runs in the wrong direction?
Here's another thought that came to me during the evacuation: Why not commandeer city buses and school buses to get people out of harm's way? Maybe involve the National Guard or the military to do a house to house? I mean, evacuation is tough but rescue is much tougher are far less successful. And some people didn't want to leave because they didn't have any place to go. So how about setting up tent cities, or even opening up out-of-harm's way bases, or even commandeering some hotels?
BTW- it turns out that they DID reroute traffic in what they call a "counterflow" pattern. But several hours before landfall they removed the barrels and cones so as not to become flying missiles.
But the fact that the Mayor and Governor didn't do everything that I thought they should doesn't absolve the Federal government from blame. The Mayor and the Governor requested Federal help BEFORE landfall. The Federal government didn't respond until three days after. In situations where the disaster is beyond the local authority's capacity- and this is clearly one of them since Mississippi and Louisiana are two of the poorest states in the nation- the response AND THE BLAME belongs to the Federal government for what it failed to do.
In another thread, Rue kindly posted a number of links on the Federal government's historic response to hurricanes to give us a yardstick for what is expected.
In 1996, Category 3 Hurricane Fran made landfall at Cape Fear approx 20:30 EST Sept 5. By
Quote:
Sept 6, On Friday, 06-SEP-96 at 0230H, we arrived at the Richmond VAMC, where we were given beds on Ward 5C. After four hours sleep, we were instructed by the MMSU to continue to Fayetteville, NC, which we arrived at in the afternoon at 1615H. This was about 15 minutes after the NC-1 DMAT arrived, which had been activated at the same time that we had been activated...
During the time that we traveled the 360 miles to successfully pre-deploy, we encountered tropical storm force winds, torrential rains, tornado watches, trees and branches laying across Interstate 95, and sleeplessness.
Huuricane Goerges, made landfall near Biloxi on Sept 28.
Quote:I refer you to the other post for more info.
Three coastal Mississippi counties--Hancock, Harrison and Jackson--were the hardest hit, with more than 87 people being housed in shelters and nearly 1,000 U.S. National Guard troops called in to aid in the recovery effort after the area received federal disaster assistance beginning September 28.
In fact, Bush didn't even tour the area by helicopter until Sept 2. Emergency medical personnel (DMAT) weren't mobilized until three days AFTER landfall. Look at the dates of these articles in the Pentagon paper, and remember that the local government requested help on the 28th: www.pentagon.mil/home/features/2005/katrina/index_new.html
Several articles have pointed out the severe disconnect from reality exhibited by DHLS head Chertoff and FEMA head Michael Brown, who were both busy spouting happy news 24/7 which was completely untrue. In fact, serious allegations have been made about FEMA by Broussard (Jefferson Parish President) which if true would warrant severe punishment of those involved:
Quote:
Walmart delivered 3 trucks of water, FEMA
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Good on you Embers. :)
Bush is to blame.
The Bush White House and pals are lieing through thier teeth about New Orleans. Bush said no one could have foreseen the flooding. Not true. Homeland Security Chief Chertkov said the same thing. Not true. FEMA Director Mike Brown is brain damaged. Oh, that's true.
It works like this kids...
Bush created the Dept. of Homeland Security. It's mandate is to make sure nothing like 9/11 ever happens again. The top three disasters, experts advised, are a WMD terror attack, an earthquake in California, and the levees breaking in New Orleans. TOP THREE!
The Dept. of Homeland Security is in charge of disasters. FEMA was hobbled when the Bush White House folded FEMA into Homeland Security. Even the staff was cut drastically and hey, Mike Brown is an old pal of George W. and, even though he was fired from his last job for incompetence, Bush still flew in to congradulate "Brownie" on a job well done... as bodies floated past... literally. On Thursday. The storm hit NO Sunday.
Now the Bush people are blaming the "local and State" officials for not acting. But look, they might be guilty of some things but there's only so much locals and state can do. Besides, the State has far less money and National Guard equipment and troops, who are in Iraq.
Remember - most of the people in New Orleans didn't die because of mistakes or the hurricane or even the flooding, THEY DIED BECAUSE THIER GOVERNMENT LEFT THEM TO ROT FOR A WEEK. A F%#ING WEEK!
You Bush supporters are about to get your arses handed to you.
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I'm going to take a guess as to what happened:
Mayor Nagin was a record-company executive before becoming Mayor- he prolly didn't have enough experience to cope with a natural disaster of that size.
Governor Blanco did everyhting I think she could have done: She used the State Patrol to re-route traffic, requested Federal Assistance, and activated the Louisiana National Guard.
Bush declared a disaster on the 27th which
Quote:This makes sense of what Broussard (President, Jefferson parish) was saying- that FEMA kept saying they were coming, which actually delayed local authorities from taking on-the-spot action. Bush, meanwhile, thought that disaster management activities were automatic and didn't need specific orders to deploy troops and bring in the National Guard from other states. Chertoff (DHLS) and Brown (FEMA) have NO emergency managment experience whatsoever and manage to muck up pretty much everything.
authorizes the FEMA to coordinate ALL disaster relief efforts and to provide appropriate assistance in a number of Louisiana parishes, or counties.
What I don't understand is- FEMA and DHLS ahd contracted just the year before with IEM to do a tabletop disaster response plan pretty much exactly like what happened (80% of NO under 15-20 feet of water after a Category 3 hurricane). Those "tabletops" define who does what. Didn't they know what they had in their own playbook???
Meanwhile, Bush contines his meet-and-greet schedule, totally unaware for three or four days that rescue and relief operations are stalled and that some activities require his involvement (as Commander in Chief, for example). Alternatively, he knows whats going on- or what's NOT going on- and is reluctant to bring in the Federal government because he believes it should be handled by contracted private industry (ie Halliburton, Bechtel etc). In either case, he is 100% disengaged from the effort.
Please don't think they give a shit.
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Another FEMA fuckup:
Quote:www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2005/s1453682.htm
The American Red Cross says the reason it wasn't there in New Orleans helping people survive was because the Homeland Security Department had actually asked it not to come back into the city after the hurricane.
A Federal misstep: Request for help from Louisiana's Governor Blanco to New Mexico's Richardson for National Guard help was delayed IN WASHINGTON from the day before landfall until three days after. In that same article:
Quote:www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5252845,00.html
the federal government could have activated, but did not, a major air support plan under a pre-existing contract with airlines. The program, called Civilian Reserve Air Fleet, lets the government quickly put private cargo and passenger planes into service.
People are still dying. But...
Please don't think they give a shit.
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MacBaker,
Not only are you an ass, you're an ignorant ass as well. If you're going to discuss global warming you really, and I mean really need to keep up with the science.
You missed the study that looked at total energy reaching the earth's surface and total energy being re-radiated to space, that found that indeed the earth was in positive heat balance, and THEN went on and predicted the energy imbalance with actual surface temperature warming.
You missed the study that combined ocean, land and atmospheric modeling to make highly accurate predictions.
And apparently you missed these studies that kick the last leg out from under your notions:
http://www.livescience.com/environment/050811_global_warming.html
Key Argument for Global Warming Critics Evaporates
Sherwood examined weather balloons known as radiosondes, which are capable of making direct measurements of atmospheric temperatures. ... (T)he older radiosonde instruments were not as well shielded from sunlight as more recent models. What this means is that older radiosondes showed warmer temperature readings during the day because they were warmed by sunlight. Nowadays, radiosondes are better insulated against the effects of sunlight, but if analyzed together with the old data — which showed temperatures that were actually warmer than they really were — the overall effect looked like the troposphere was cooling.
According to Santer, the only group to previously analyze satellite data on the troposphere -- the lowest layer in Earth's atmosphere -- was a research team headed by Roy Spencer from University of Alabama in 1992. But in (a) Science paper published today, Carl Mears and Rank Wentz, scientists at the California-based Remote Sensing Systems, examined the same data and identified an error in Spencer's analysis technique. After correcting for the mistake, the researchers obtained fundamentally different results: whereas Spencer's analysis showed a cooling of the Earth's troposphere, the new analysis revealed a warming. (because) http://www.lambincommand.com/drbortrum.asp (when) Mears and Wentz
examined their data they found that the satellites were in effect
reporting nighttime temperatures as daytime temperatures!
So, let's hear it now. The excuses, the rationalizations, the decoy arguments ...
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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When I read what you all wrote re Bush and FEMA, it pisses me off. I have no measure for the rage - RAGE - I feel toward those callous, glib, primping murderers - ever so camera ready for more spin - who lie, and lie, and lie. And they have the unmitigated GALL to then put the responsibility to fix it up on the state, the city and everyday Americans - the victims - who are supposed to reach into THEIR pockets and do the things THEIR tax money was already collected for. Because THAT money is long gone.
So let's all be good patriotic Americans, shall we? Open up your wallet, your home, your veins, and bleed some more for the sake of your fellow man. But whatever you do, don't you dare look to those who sail by whose miens shall never be looked upon. Who are perfect and unaccountable and protected. And just plain more valuable than us all.
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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Kristi Noem all but killed FEMA. Will her departure save it?
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/kristi-noem-killed-fema-her-213743283.html
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