Major Spoiler and I'm calling Joss out
POSTED BY: fireflygal
UPDATED: Friday, October 14, 2005 18:37
VIEWED: 62703
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DO NOT READ THIS IF YOU HATE SPOILERS!
I have seen no posts to question Joss Whedon's script for Serenity, maybe we all hoped he'd change "certain" things before the final cut. I just saw the press showing in Tampa Sept 6 and it didn't change. I KNOW I'm not the only one who feels betrayed and angry because I hear it at every showing I've been to, from the other Browncoats. I'm posting this here hoping it gets to the "man" and he lets us know why. I wrote this as an article and have submitted it to a couple of sites but I realize I don't want to wait and see. I'm not lost but I'm angry and I can be armed...
Serenity Soars, Whedon Sinks
By Aleta* Vinas “FireflyGal”
Warning, this article contains MAJOR spoilers. Do NOT read this if you have not yet seen Serenity which premieres September 30th.
I have been lucky enough to see Serenity three times now and I hate it more each time I see it. No, allow me to rephrase that, I hate Joss Whedon more each time I see Serenity. I have heard that same phrase uttered from many other Browncoats, as well, after each preview. I’m calling Joss Whedon out onto the carpet to answer to the fans. Why? Why did you take the sky from us?
We all know what I’m talking about – Book and Wash. There was no reason in the ‘verse for them to die. I don’t care how noble their deaths were. It’s a story; it CAN have a happy ending. All the characters can live through the trilogy. Yes, there will be a trilogy if the Browncoats have any say in the matter and we do. We will see the movie, we will bring friends and repeat numerous times. We will make Fox wish they never cancelled Firefly. I will see it again and again despite what Whedon did; ripping my heart out by killing two of the wonderful characters I had come to love and laugh with.
Rumor has it that all nine cast members are signed for the trilogy but I don’t want flashbacks, the Browncoats don’t want flashbacks. We want nine characters alive and well, (we’ll even take wounded), to move into the future – together – on new adventures.
Does anyone else feel betrayed? Kind of feels like hearing there’s a new Battlestar Galactica, only it’s NOT Battlestar Galactica because Starbuck’s a girl and Boomer’s an Asian female? Are they kidding? Apparently not but I won’t even go off on that tangent.
I saw an interview with Whedon on the internet. This is what he said “I do this not to make things people like. It’s only to make things that they love. When I write for a moment when you just go ‘I needed to see that’.” No, I didn’t need to see Book and Wash die. However could you believe that any Browncoat wanted to see that?
I keep wondering if there’s a correlation between the death of Wash and Book and if memory serves me, Alan and Ron being the last cast members to sign on the dotted line. Whedon’s cosmic retribution?
I discovered Firefly from Day 1 when Fox showed the Train Job. Never missed an episode after that. My VCR was always at the ready no matter where Fox shuffled it to. I was a Browncoat from that first episode. I converted friends when the DVD’s came out. I gave them as gifts, all the Browncoats did. I listened to Whedon thanking the fans for their support and we all took his words to heart. We believed. We took Firefly and her nine crew to heart.
Browncoats rejoiced when we found out about the movie, it was magic. The Browncoats kept the faith, Universal had faith in Whedon and Serenity was born. When I saw Serenity, I lost faith, the way Mal did at the Battle of Serenity Valley. And like Mal, I will continue on. I will support the Browncoats and the movies even though a piece of me was left behind after Serenity.
So I come full circle to my original question, why? I’m not the only Browncoat who wants to know. Will you give us the answer, Joss Whedon? Though it’s doubtful any answer will satisfy us, we’d like to know what in the gorram ‘verse you were thinking?
I aim to misbehave!
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I saw the june 23 preview and I felt a similar regret. However, I still hold a small hope in my heart that these events were designed to serve a greater good. Much like the death of Jenny Calinder in Season 2 Buffy, while tragic and crappy at the time, was what set Willow down her magical path.
But it's a weak hope. And truthfully, I felt a little part of me die with Wash.
And I was also angry at the reaver explaination. I plan to start a reaver thread the morning of Oct 1. But I shall wait to let others catch up before ranting.
Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony.
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Understood on the greater good thing but my deal is that he could do ANYTHING he wanted with those characters and a greater good could have been found with all of them alive.
Not a Buffy fan, so can't compare but I daresay Joss could have set Willow down the magical path without a death. He's a writer, no death, character takes a different path.
Don't mean to sound tetchy, really. I'm upset and truly want to know why. I'd rather him tell me it's because Alan and Ron do not want to have anything to do with Firefly ever again. That's reality, then I could understand...
I aim to misbehave!
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Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:
I'd rather him tell me it's because Alan and Ron do not want to have anything to do with Firefly ever again.
Well then I hate to write this:
Like I said, I was at the june 23 showing. I'm from Indianapolis and attended the screening here in town. Ron Glass came to our theater.
When it was over and Ron offered us a Q&A session we asked him about the death of book. He indicated that it was a story presented to him by Joss and not a function of his desire or lack thereof to play Book in the future.
I took that as proof that Joss intended Book to die. And then by extension assumed Wash was a planned death as well.
Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony.
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Yeah, I didn't think reality had anything to do with Joss's writing. Ron is pretty stuck on Firefly based on what you said and his panel at DragonCon. This just makes it worse 
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There are comments by Alan Tudyk on this in "Serenity: The Official Movie Magazine" put out by Titan Magazines. Alan says that he really liked Wash's fate. He was a fan of it. He thought that Wash was a really good character to kill. He even mentioned to Joss one time about Wash being a good sympathetic kill. He thought, if the series had continued, that his character should have died in the 2nd season. It really sounds like Alan gave Joss the idea in the first place. I'm not sure about Ron Glass though.
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Ok, so it gets worse 
Alan suggesting his own demise...
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It hurt, didn't it? It hurt a lot. Just like it was supposed to.
I'm far from happy about it, but at the same time, I understand why Joss did it. For one, how could the danger be real if we know all the characters are gonna make it until the end? Would you have been concerned for Simon and Kaylee, if not for Wash's death? If you knew that they would make it in the end?
Even though it hurt, I was glad that it happened the way it did. Wash didn't sacrifice himself for the crew. His death was sudden, unheroic, and completely unexpected. Admittedly, his flying beforehand was quite heroic, and his death in no way reduces his awesomeness. However, it was a realistic death. No last words and no sacrifice. Just like real life.
I, for one, am glad that Joss did it, and I support the decision 100%.
"Invader's blood marches through my veins like giant radioactive rubber pants. The pants command me! Do not ignore my veins!"
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Fireflygal, I can't say I agree with you. Everything exists to serve Joss's story, and with 9 main characters, at least ONE of them was bound to die. I know I had that feeling, and to tell you the truth, if Joss had put the crew through that many dangers and NOBODY had gotten killed, I would have considered it somewhat of a cop-out. It would be a more comforting tale, but that's really not what Joss does, and that's one of the reasons he's the best.
Although, if he keeps it up, by the end of Serenity 3 it's going to be just Mal. An even more ultra bitter, hating the world Mal.
"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann
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You go Ath! (mind if I call you Ath?). I like happy endings...
Still enjoyed the movie, will still go see it numerous times. I just want to know WHY.
I aim to misbehave!
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"I will see it again and again despite what Whedon did; ripping my heart out by killing two of the wonderful characters I had come to love and laugh with."
That's just the reaction he wanted, no?
Personally, I'm not angry that he did it. I'm sad, and I miss Wash, but we all know that happy endings ever only happen in fairytales. It makes Serenity more real, that it doesn't end perfectly. It's just your stock standard sci-fi/horror where the heros save the day and the heroic pilot lives to crack a joke another day. At least this way he's done what people don't expect, he's dragged a powerful reaction out of people like yourself, and so on.
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One thing i haven't seen anyone speculate on:
If the movie had be made right away or the series continued, and Wash and Book still died, would it have been as controversial? Or has the reaction been so strong because the characters have lived in our imaginations for three years?
Joss tells his stories how he wants to, and he likes them dark... sometimes really dark. He doesn't write to placate fans, he serves the story in his own head. That's what makes him great and refreshing. He takes risks and it always pays off later. He doesn't write cookiecutter stories.
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Gotta agree with MikeyMo. If Wash hadn't died, the movie would have felt cheap. The way the movie was going, it simply couldn't have a happy ending. You can't write final act like that and expect everyone to get through it alive. In order to "save Wash", the entire movie would have to have been rewritten, and that, imo, would have been a tragedy.
Don't get all reavery on me for saying this, but I think Joss could have killed one or two more characters, and the movie would have been the better for it. It felt a little odd to me that Wash was the only one to die during the final battle.
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You really felt something when Wash died, right? Like a punch to the gut, right? It really hurt, deeply and truly, right? ...why are you questioning why Joss did it?
More specifically, we have people in a dangerous line of work, that's gotten substantially more dangerous since the show. Why kill someone off? Realism, emotion, intensity, and because people DO die. Even at the best of times, sometimes it just happens. When real death happens, you feel it. It hurts, deeply and truly. These characters, through Joss's amazing storytelling, became real people to us - he earned the right to use them to do mature, real people stories, not just wanking off the fans.
"Calling Joss out" are you? Come on. He told his story, the best and most intense and most realistic way he could. He owes us nothing more.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn:
"Calling Joss out" are you? Come on. He told his story, the best and most intense and most realistic way he could. He owes us nothing more.
Hear Hear!!
I'm with Thrawn, GTMAN8503, Whisper, Phoebe and MikeyMo.
Joss owes us nothing, he may not always give us what we want, but that's his choice. It's his story and he tells it the way he wants to.
We owe him.
I didn't want either character to die, but that's what happened. It was gut wrenching and painful and horrid, but that's life.
I found the movie to be rewarding in its entirety, the humour, the beauty, the misery, the horror, the action, the *everything*.
*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"
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"... 'cause every now and then, I just wanna break someone's heart." - Joss Whedon
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Fact is--if the writing wasn't great, you wouldn't care that Wash and Book died.
Am I sad about it? Yep. Hell, I wrote a song about it.
But I like Whedon because he's an artist, not because he gives me predictable stories that make me feel good.
"You can't take my show from me,
Because I've got the DVD."
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Quote:Hear Hear!!
Originally posted by Jacqui:Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn:
He told his story, the best and most intense and most realistic way he could. He owes us nothing more.
anyone who has experienced a loved one's death in RL
(as we know Joss has)
knows how intense and deep that loss is,
and personally I think Joss gave us a taste of that shock and pain,
and it adds depth and power to his film
personally I'll be thrilled to see my beloved characters again in flashbacks,
or in prequels
or in any other form Joss thinks up....
If you don't like Joss Whedon's story telling then you can always go for fan fic,
that is what that is for...right?
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I have to agree w/ the others FFG. Sure it hurt like hell to see Wash die. Ask my wife, she'll tell you. I just sat there, stunned, saying over & over again "I can't believe Wash is gone". It felt like I got punched in the stomach, like I had lost a friend. That is the reaction that Joss wanted us to feel.
Serenity is more realistic than most shows. That is one of the things that drew many of us to it in the first place. Heroes get shot, stabbed, and beat up. They are not invincible, and they don't always ride off into the sunset w/ the girl & the reward. Real life doesn't work like that, so why should Serenity?
In life or death situations, like most of Serenity, people get hurt, and people die. I was sad to see Book die, especially without knowning about his past, but Wash hit me really hard. Just like the crew, we the fans will grieve his loss and move on. The wheel never stops turning FFG, and it matters to more than just those out on the rim.
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I can't say it any better than these people, or than my poor attempt over in the thread on the Universal Board.
"Just because I choose to wander, it doesn't mean that I am lost..."
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I have to say that I completely (and respectfully) disagree with you on this. Wash's death was the only moment I can remember in many years of movie-watching where I involuntarily gasped and clasped my hand over my mouth in shock.
In my opinion, that's a very GOOD thing.
Yes, it hurts to not have Wash or Book with us in potential sequels (maybe in flashback form?) but it made Serenity an incredibly powerful film for me. I really didn't think ANY of our heroes were going to survive the last act after Wash's death - I thought they were all going out in a blaze of glory, and I was riveted. I think the decision to kill Wash in such a shocking manner is one of the best decisions Joss ever made, and I praise him highly for it.
Oh, and I also think the new Battlestar Galactica is far superior to the original! 
"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care. Or indeed, why it should be necessary to prove it at all." -Kerr Avon
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In the end of it all. After they are all written, made and seen by the fans, the movies themselves will make sense. And those of us left wondering why, will be saying " oh. Thats why."
All the great movies do it. You were meant to get hurt. You were meant to get angry. You will go see the other movies in hopes of some kind of explanation. I hope you get your answer so that you find some kind of ( lack of better wording) peace.
I havent seen the movie yet. I know these parts are coming, and I was shocked when I read about their deaths. I know I will cry and be a big baby. I want to add I knew that someone was gonna die and all I could do was cross my fingers and hope it wasnt kaylee. A door is always opened when Joss closes one. Just sometimes not right when the door slams shut.
We will just have to sit back and wait, and watch to see what will happen. Maybe just maybe a new character is introed and for that character to develope INTO our crew Wash or Book needed to die.
I totally sympathize with you. I cant say I am calling him to the carpet, but hey if he makes it would someone tell him I want an autograph???
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Quote:
Originally posted by spikeandjezebel:
Yes, it hurts to not have Wash or Book with us in potential sequels (maybe in flashback form?) but it made Serenity an incredibly powerful film for me. I really didn't think ANY of our heroes were going to survive the last act after Wash's death - I thought they were all going out in a blaze of glory, and I was riveted.
Exactly. I have a friend who has seen it twice (lucky bastard!) and he said, even knowing what was going to happen, he still felt like everyone was going to die at the end.
I was sad when I heard about Book's and Wash's deaths, but they serve the story well. Even though I spoiled myself beforehand, the ending was so intense because of Wash's death, and made the story that much better.
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came across this today. Just some bits & pieces from the Sydney Q & A but may help shed some light.
Q> How did you decide who to kill?
A> “My Dungeon Master’s 20-sided dice” (uproarious laughter).
‘At first, I wasn’t going to kill anyone...” but he explained that if no-one got hurt then the story wouldn’t ring true for the newcomers. He also noted “You have resitrictions about who you can kill and still call it a happy ending.” He apparently tried different scenarios and reminisced that in a draft for Alien IV, he had a death for one of the characters in every act and then living in the finale. “I can’t worry about what I need or worry about a sequel...” he had to make this film the best it could possibly be.
Wash’s death “gave Zoe what she hadn’t had for the rest of the movie...” ie. an emotional arc and more than her just being the strong, dependable... (can’t remember the adjectives...) She was given shock and disbelief before “sublimating it for later when she can take it out on some Reavers.” “Everyone who isn’t Ron and Alan wins.”
He (Joss) noted that Alan works the most and was the first to get work after the series ended. Joss at this point began to get nervous that the cast was moving on and that his movie wasn’t going to happen.
Asked about whether we would ever find out about Book’s past. “Once more I mention the sequel...”
"We had ties that could not be broken, except by the passing of time. Like a rock. A broken time rock. And you're very special to me, my broken time rock people." - Nathan Fillion
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I'm gonna jump on the bandwagon and disagree. Character deaths make them more human to us. Watch the final Star Trek Voyager episode. That would have been much better if someone like Chakotay had died. Whatever Joss's reasons are, I have faith in him.
-----------------------
I'll rape you to death.
I'll eat your flesh.
I'll sew your skin into my clothes.
If you're very very lucky, I'll do it in that order - TheReaver
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Heh... don't agree with you, FireflyGal, but hey ho. I can't say it any better than the rest of the folks already did. For those of us who had seen the advanced screenings way back in May, this is an old and quite tiresome topic. But! To add a little levity to it, I figured I'd re-post this message from MILLER_UNC of the 'Versal Board:
Quote:Cheers.
Posted: 06 May 2005 11:00 am
Post subject: An open letter to William Shakespeare **SPOILERS**
Dear Will,
I am so mad right now. I just got back from the sneak preview of Hamlet, and I can't even think straight. How could you kill Hamlet at the end? I mean, he was like, my favorite character!
Anyway, I've been thinking about ways you can fix this before the premiere of the play. Hamlet doesn't get killed until the very end, his scenes can easily be rewritten so that he gets up after Horatio's speech, and reveals that he's immune to the poison that was used. This would only require a couple of additional lines to be rewritten, and then we'd have Hamlet around for sequels.
I realize that you may have thought that killing Hamlet was "edgy" or "shocking," and it was, but that doesn't make it right.
I am seriously considering staying at home when Hamlet premieres at the Globe, and reading my folio copy of The Taming of the Shrew instead.
Sincerely,
miller_unc
无 党派 人士
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Why? I think it's because he created one of the greatest moments in film history. I've never been so shocked and glued to my seat. The fear that Kaylee, Simon and Zoe were all going to die had me petrified. Joss created characters that were as important to us as some of our closest friends. I would much rather experience they shock and pain of those characters deaths than to see one of my friends die. It's exactly what movies are made for. To experience emotions without the real world consiquences.
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I haven't seen it yet, but i read the spoilers and i trust joss
Got a Smoke?
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I'm holding to the notion that maybe, just maybe, all of this is to give us a great twist -- the final cut will have a healthy Wash and Book in the end.
As a precedent... remember when Empire Strikes Back was released, even the actors were surprised to learn Vader was Luke's father... Only a few select people know about this.
Point is, Joss could be having a great joke on us. Remember Mal's sense of humor towards Kaylee's death? Like that.
I hope I can simply say Joss, you're a bad man. :)
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If there is a trilogy, who the heck will pilot the ship?
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Sorry but I believe he owes the fans a "why" because we all fought for the show and ALL the characters. How many times have we heard Joss and the cast say the fans were partly responsible for bringing Serenity to reality. If so, I certainly didn't do it to have characters killed off. Yes, Joss writes dark, but then he shouldn't say he writes what people love (his own words). I know many Browncoats that did NOT love what he did. So I still ask why. I do believe he does owe the unhappy fans that answer. Even if you believe he owes us nothing, it's still a question that should be asked in an interview because it is a viable interview question.
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Quote:
Originally posted by embers:Quote:Hear Hear!!
Originally posted by Jacqui:Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn:
He told his story, the best and most intense and most realistic way he could. He owes us nothing more.
anyone who has experienced a loved one's death in RL
(as we know Joss has)
knows how intense and deep that loss is,
and personally I think Joss gave us a taste of that shock and pain,
and it adds depth and power to his film
personally I'll be thrilled to see my beloved characters again in flashbacks,
or in prequels
or in any other form Joss thinks up....
If you don't like Joss Whedon's story telling then you can always go for fan fic,
that is what that is for...right?
Because I've experienced death in real life is exactly why I don't want it in fiction. Personally couldn't care less that Padme died in Star Wars but we all know Firefly was in our hearts. That's why I wanted my fiction different from reality because Joss COULD have written an awesome story without the characters dying. Wounded I say, wounded would have worked!
As for fan fic, sure I can, then everyone will say, hey don't you know Wash and Book are dead?
I aim to misbehave!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stillshiny:
came across this today. Just some bits & pieces from the Sydney Q & A but may help shed some light.
Q> How did you decide who to kill?
A> “My Dungeon Master’s 20-sided dice” (uproarious laughter).
‘At first, I wasn’t going to kill anyone...” but he explained that if no-one got hurt then the story wouldn’t ring true for the newcomers. He also noted “You have resitrictions about who you can kill and still call it a happy ending.” He apparently tried different scenarios and reminisced that in a draft for Alien IV, he had a death for one of the characters in every act and then living in the finale. “I can’t worry about what I need or worry about a sequel...” he had to make this film the best it could possibly be.
Wash’s death “gave Zoe what she hadn’t had for the rest of the movie...” ie. an emotional arc and more than her just being the strong, dependable... (can’t remember the adjectives...) She was given shock and disbelief before “sublimating it for later when she can take it out on some Reavers.” “Everyone who isn’t Ron and Alan wins.”
He (Joss) noted that Alan works the most and was the first to get work after the series ended. Joss at this point began to get nervous that the cast was moving on and that his movie wasn’t going to happen.
Asked about whether we would ever find out about Book’s past. “Once more I mention the sequel...”
"We had ties that could not be broken, except by the passing of time. Like a rock. A broken time rock. And you're very special to me, my broken time rock people." - Nathan Fillion
Stillshiny's Shop - I'm thinkin we rose again
http://www.spreadshirt.com/shop.php?sid=4728
Listen to "The Signal" www.serenityfirefly.com
Serenity is coming. 9/30/05
Thanks StillShiny.
I seem to have the why now and I feel betrayed even more because he killed the characters for the newbies! So THEY'D have a better movie. What about the fans from day 1? Guess we don't seem to count. Sure, he can do whatever he wants with his characters but I don't have to like it and I still don't believe it was a better movie because they died. Yes, it got the gut punch reaction he wanted. It was just great having to sit through 2 more showings with friends, knowing they'd be gut punched too and I couldn't do anything about it. Never said a word to anyone, kept it all in, just said the movie was an "E" ticket ride and it was. I hope the "newbies" appreciate what Joss did for them.I aim to misbehave!
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Quote:
Originally posted by WickedLester:
I haven't seen it yet, but i read the spoilers and i trust joss
Got a Smoke?
How can I trust someone that I feel betrayed by? Not that Joss gives a rats pe-gu what I think but I'm certainly gonna air it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rhonis:
I'm holding to the notion that maybe, just maybe, all of this is to give us a great twist -- the final cut will have a healthy Wash and Book in the end.
As a precedent... remember when Empire Strikes Back was released, even the actors were surprised to learn Vader was Luke's father... Only a few select people know about this.
Point is, Joss could be having a great joke on us. Remember Mal's sense of humor towards Kaylee's death? Like that.
I hope I can simply say Joss, you're a bad man. :)
I'm hoping your right!
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Sometimes I feel like I am the only one in the 'Verse who understands that part of what makes Joss and his writings what they are is the fact that, like in real life, there are not always happy endings and things often take unexpected turns.
I accept this in his work, and by way of being a fan, I also expect it.
Did I hate that Wash died? Yes. Was I angry that he died? Yes. Am I calling for Joss's head or for him to answer to me for what is, in reality, his world and his creation? No.
Will I go on and read/watch/listen to anything he does? Yes, I will, and I will do so with the expectation that good guys always aren't, bad guys sometimes have a damn good reason, and that life isn't fair and good people die for no reason. If I didn't at least accept this, I couldn't be a fan.
I will watch. I will get angry. Then I will blame the only person I can, me. And then I will laugh for setting myself up for it and look forward to the next time I will get angry.
note: I will also watch for the stories, the fun, the action, the connections, and the incredibly hot women who can kick pee goo!
Man...that's twice something has got me on my soapbox this week...a world record. LOL!
BWAH!
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Quote:
Originally posted by TenthCrewMember:
Sometimes I feel like I am the only one in the 'Verse who understands that part of what makes Joss and his writings what they are is the fact that, like in real life, there are not always happy endings and things often take unexpected turns.
I accept this in his work, and by way of being a fan, I also expect it.
Did I hate that Wash died? Yes. Was I angry that he died? Yes. Am I calling for Joss's head or for him to answer to me for what is, in reality, his world and his creation? No.
Will I go on and read/watch/listen to anything he does? Yes, I will, and I will do so with the expectation that good guys always aren't, bad guys sometimes have a damn good reason, and that life isn't fair and good people die for no reason. If I didn't at least accept this, I couldn't be a fan.
I will watch. I will get angry. Then I will blame the only person I can, me. And then I will laugh for setting myself up for it and look forward to the next time I will get angry.
note: I will also watch for the stories, the fun, the action, the connections, and the incredibly hot women who can kick pee goo!
Man...that's twice something has got me on my soapbox this week...a world record. LOL!
BWAH!
TCM
Great soapbox 10th CM, glad I incited you to step on up.
And I basically agree with most of what you said EXCEPT that I can be a fan AND question what happens. I won't blindly accept what Joss writes because he's Joss. I never liked Buffy or Angel. I did, however, LOVE Firefly (obviously) which is why I'm in this forum in the first place. I may be on the losing side of this post, still not convinced it's the wrong one!
If anyone is interested, check out the article I wrote PURPOSELY to promote Done the Impossible AND Serenity. The site I write for, however, is NOT sci-fi oriented, so I had to give it a science fact twist to even get it considered. It contains no Joss bashing, by the way.
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=9b95f5b8-74b8-42fa-a
e98-39963abc7512&
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What TenthCrewMember wrote... in it's entirety.
Seriously? We're talking about a fictional world of fictional characters made up by one man. He can do what he likes with them... as long as he shares it with us.
Yes. Wash's death was upsetting. But it happened.
Yes. All the fans helped get Serenity off the ground and helped Firefly stay on its feet. But why? Why did they do that? So JOSS could tell the stories HE wanted to.
End of discussion.
If I wanted some cheesy hollywood hack formula movie where even the GORRAM little dog lives, I'll watch Volcano.
*~*~*
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Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:Quote:
Originally posted by Stillshiny:
came across this today. Just some bits & pieces from the Sydney Q & A but may help shed some light.
Q> How did you decide who to kill?
A> “My Dungeon Master’s 20-sided dice” (uproarious laughter).
‘At first, I wasn’t going to kill anyone...” but he explained that if no-one got hurt then the story wouldn’t ring true for the newcomers. He also noted “You have resitrictions about who you can kill and still call it a happy ending.” He apparently tried different scenarios and reminisced that in a draft for Alien IV, he had a death for one of the characters in every act and then living in the finale. “I can’t worry about what I need or worry about a sequel...” he had to make this film the best it could possibly be.
Wash’s death “gave Zoe what she hadn’t had for the rest of the movie...” ie. an emotional arc and more than her just being the strong, dependable... (can’t remember the adjectives...) She was given shock and disbelief before “sublimating it for later when she can take it out on some Reavers.” “Everyone who isn’t Ron and Alan wins.”
He (Joss) noted that Alan works the most and was the first to get work after the series ended. Joss at this point began to get nervous that the cast was moving on and that his movie wasn’t going to happen.
Asked about whether we would ever find out about Book’s past. “Once more I mention the sequel...”
"We had ties that could not be broken, except by the passing of time. Like a rock. A broken time rock. And you're very special to me, my broken time rock people." - Nathan Fillion
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Are you truly this blind?! How many hardcore, intense fans just posted in this thread saying they supported the action? Let's see...um...MOST OF THEM. So you're saying he didn't care about US?!
Let me try this again - he told his story the best and most powerful way he could. What else do you want him to do?
Let me ask you a question, straight up. Would you rather he write to fulfill himself, or your expectations?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jacqui:
What TenthCrewMember wrote... in it's entirety.
Seriously? We're talking about a fictional world of fictional characters made up by one man. He can do what he likes with them... as long as he shares it with us.
Yes. Wash's death was upsetting. But it happened.
Yes. All the fans helped get Serenity off the ground and helped Firefly stay on its feet. But why? Why did they do that? So JOSS could tell the stories HE wanted to.
End of discussion.
If I wanted some cheesy hollywood hack formula movie where even the GORRAM little dog lives, I'll watch Volcano.
*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"
Sorry Jacqui, end of YOUR discussion maybe. If it's a fictional world with fictional characters what do you care if I voice my opinion about them. I am ACCEPTING EVERYONE'S comments I'm not belittling them. You are free not to post here in this thread if you can't accept MY thoughts. And I will say it AGAIN. I don't like what Joss did with the characters and I'll deal but I still want to know why (which was answered but that's beside the point). Now it makes me wish I could see the script he wrote originally with all the characters living or hear the idea he had.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn:Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:Quote:
Originally posted by Stillshiny:
came across this today. Just some bits & pieces from the Sydney Q & A but may help shed some light.
Q> How did you decide who to kill?
A> “My Dungeon Master’s 20-sided dice” (uproarious laughter).
‘At first, I wasn’t going to kill anyone...” but he explained that if no-one got hurt then the story wouldn’t ring true for the newcomers. He also noted “You have resitrictions about who you can kill and still call it a happy ending.” He apparently tried different scenarios and reminisced that in a draft for Alien IV, he had a death for one of the characters in every act and then living in the finale. “I can’t worry about what I need or worry about a sequel...” he had to make this film the best it could possibly be.
Wash’s death “gave Zoe what she hadn’t had for the rest of the movie...” ie. an emotional arc and more than her just being the strong, dependable... (can’t remember the adjectives...) She was given shock and disbelief before “sublimating it for later when she can take it out on some Reavers.” “Everyone who isn’t Ron and Alan wins.”
He (Joss) noted that Alan works the most and was the first to get work after the series ended. Joss at this point began to get nervous that the cast was moving on and that his movie wasn’t going to happen.
Asked about whether we would ever find out about Book’s past. “Once more I mention the sequel...”
"We had ties that could not be broken, except by the passing of time. Like a rock. A broken time rock. And you're very special to me, my broken time rock people." - Nathan Fillion
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Are you truly this blind?! How many hardcore, intense fans just posted in this thread saying they supported the action? Let's see...um...MOST OF THEM. So you're saying he didn't care about US?!
Let me try this again - he told his story the best and most powerful way he could. What else do you want him to do?
Let me ask you a question, straight up. Would you rather he write to fulfill himself, or your expectations?
You know what, I'm a hardcore, dedicated fan from Day 1. I LIKED the movie OVERALL, so don't get teetchy. I also don't CARE that everyone else in the 'verse supported the killing, which I know for a fact is not true, since I have seen it with people that hated the killing, course maybe they have a life and don't live to post on FFN. LIKE I SAID MAY BE ON THE LOSING SIDE OF THIS POST, STILL NOT CONVINCED IT'S THE WRONG ONE. You want to know the truth on your question? MY EXPECTATIONS, ain't gonna happen and it didn't happen but if YOU read his quote from the Aussie interview he originally wasn't going to kill anyone but then it wouldn't ring true for the NEWCOMERS, not the Browncoats but the NEW fans. And AGAIN, LIKE I SAID, Joss doesn't care what I think but I'm voicing my opinion BECAUSE I CAN.
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I was hurt. I was mad. I was sad.
I thought everyone was going to die.
And that's why he did it. When I watched the TV show, I never thought anyone was going to die. In fact, after the near scrapes with Kaylee in the pilot, Mal and Wash at Niska's Skyplex, and Book while they were unloading cattle, I had it in my head that no one was going to die. Not ever.
So he took away Wash and Book. I wouldn't have done it. If I felt I had to do it, I'd have done it differently. But you know what? No one would ever read or watch one of my stories, wide eyed and open mouthed, and wonder if anyone was going to get out alive.
As for pleasing newbies, I hope he does please them. I hope he pleases them a lot. Because as many of us fans as there are, there aren't enough of us to bring in sequels. Not by a long shot. We need the newbies to get what we want: Sequels.
So if Joss did two things… if he made me fear for characters I'd assumed were safe, and he turned up the realism for the newbies, I'm glad. All hail the Newbies and their millions of dollars of ticket sales. We need them so much.
I am much more put out by the fact that Mal got shot in the back by the Operative to zero effect. Jayne's remarkable recovery after being impaled by a rusty metal pole is also notable. These are things that made the film less real, and worked against Joss' other moments.
But, all in all, small complaints for a good film.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:
if YOU read his quote from the Aussie interview he originally wasn't going to kill anyone but then it wouldn't ring true for the NEWCOMERS, not the Browncoats but the NEW fans.
Like I said in my previous post, I really don't think it would have rung true for me if no one had died. I appreciate you have a right to your opinion, but I really don't think accusations of Joss ignoring his fanbase, or tring to "get back" at Ron and Alan, have much credibility.
From this fan's perspective, at least, the deaths give the film more emotional resonance than a feel-good ending would have. They wouldn't be our BDHs if things went their way.
"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann
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Quote:
Originally posted by MikeyMo:Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:
if YOU read his quote from the Aussie interview he originally wasn't going to kill anyone but then it wouldn't ring true for the NEWCOMERS, not the Browncoats but the NEW fans.
Like I said in my previous post, I really don't think it would have rung true for me if no one had died. I appreciate you have a right to your opinion, but I really don't think accusations of Joss ignoring his fanbase, or tring to "get back" at Ron and Alan, have much credibility.
From this fan's perspective, at least, the deaths give the film more emotional resonance than a feel-good ending would have. They wouldn't be our BDHs if things went their way.
"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann
Yeah. This.
Fireflygal, you have the right to your opinion just like anyone else, I wasn't trying to dissuade you. I'm just saying you shouldn't 1) say Joss is ignoring or being unfair to the fanbase as a whole, because he isn't, and 2) accuse him of killing off characters that he loves just as much as you (probably more than you) for cheap or illegitimate reasons. If you didn't like it, fine. Not everyone likes everything. Doesn't mean Joss failed, or that he was being unfair or intentionally mean.
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I, too, was disappointed with the deaths of Book and Wash.
Yes, they are Joss' characters are he can do whatever he gorram pleases with them, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.
I can understand wanting to add realism to the film for the sake of the newbies. However, having watched Serenity with a newbie, what struck us most was that he didn't provide enough of a background for Book (especially) or Wash to fully comprehend how devastating their deaths were. And they were *devastating* to the fans.(I actually had someone tell me after the viewing that I should refrain from making any big decisions for a week or two, as it takes a while for the shock to wear off.)
Yes, it makes a sort of sense for characters to die. But if the show had not been cancelled, it would not have happened it the *next* episode. And for some fans, waiting so long for another glimpse of people we had grown to love, that is probably where expectations were at - a longer story arc, covering the ideas that would have been shown had the series continued (especially since we had already been hearing rumors of a trilogy!)
I think one of the things that upset me the most was that here we finally had a chance to interact with characters we had longed for - and didn't get the same level of interaction we had become accustomed to. It didn't feel as well-rounded and character-oriented. And that was frustrating. Yes, it was action-packed, and believe me, I love action as much as the next martial arts fan, but it wasn't as fulfilling because I *do* care about these characters.
Book's death served a purpose, and I could fathom how that decision came to be. (Hearing Ron Glass speak about his time with this cast, though, I am truly saddened that it had to happen this way.) But I was still frustrated - he appeared as a side character - not a part of the crew, as the fans knew him to be. It leaves out such a huge part of the background story and makes Book appear to be dispensable. Knowing more than was shown, I felt that Book's death *was* enough to show that not everyone is always going to make it out alright.
Which brings me to Wash...
I am distraught about Wash's death, not just because he was a great guy with a goofy sense of humor and the ability to not be in the center of the action, but also becuase of his relationship with Zoe. Here, finally, is a depiction of a healthy, mature, adult relationship - marriage on screen that isn't derogatory or whiny, featuring characters over the age of 25. I am disappointed that I will not get to see more of what they could explore together. (Albeit rumors have already started that Zoe may be pregnant, and it is more drama-filled to have Zoe raise her child without Wash.)
To be honest, Wash's death distracted me from the rest of the film. I didn't believe everyone else was going to die. I didn't believe he was dead. Zoe's simple "He's not coming" left me worlds of ideas for how Wash would make it through. It wasn't until the funeral scene before I realized the truth in her statement - he's really not coming.
Upon watching the scene at the end between Mal and River, it appears that (if I'm not mistaken) the answer to the question of "Then who's going to fly the ship?" will be River. And as much as River is the ultimate enigma in this 'verse, it was hard for me to sit silently and watch the entire focus become River. (Nothing against Summer Glau, a truly incredible actress, or against Joss' creation, as I love the skewed perspective River has.) But for me, Firefly was about nine truly unforgettable characters, interacting in a way that spoke volumes to me. And Serenity, which I was dying to see, was about River, with other characters in a supporting or even dispensable role.
The challenge for me, is that here is a movie I have been waiting for, hoping for, dying to see. I want to grab all of my friends and go on opening night and watch it and be able to bounce enthusiastically, even ecstatically, that we have our characters back and clamor for the next movie (and the next, and the one after t
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Quote:
Originally posted by TenthCrewMember:
Sometimes I feel like I am the only one in the 'Verse who understands that part of what makes Joss and his writings what they are is the fact that, like in real life, there are not always happy endings and things often take unexpected turns.
Quote:
Originally posted by CallMeAth:
It hurt didn't it? It hurt a lot. Just like it was supposed to.
it was a realistic death. No last words and no sacrifice. Just like real life.
I, for one, am glad that Joss did it.
Nope, you're not alone.
"Invader's blood marches through my veins like giant radioactive rubber pants. The pants command me! Do not ignore my veins!"
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Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:
Great soapbox 10th CM, glad I incited you to step on up.
Hey thanks FFG! And for the record, I meant only by way of me being a fan, never said you (or anyone else) couldn't be a fan and question it. *I* question it, as I do most everything, but I still accept it for the reasons I stated.
BWAH!
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I am sad for all those who feeled betrayed by Joss but Joss writes pain and anyone who has stuck with him through Buffy and Angel knows this and now Firefly fans know it too.
He never permits a happy love story (anyone expecting joy for Simon/Kaylee, Inara/Mal are going to be very disappointed in the long term). He never allows everybody to come out alive and unhurt. He never supplies a universally happy ending.
What he does to is make us laugh and cry and re-evaluate television, film and maybe even ourselves and society. Joss hurts but its a nice hurt. I hope all those people that feel let down or betrayed will come to love the pain that he gives because it comes with so many other wonderful things it really is worth it eventually. Remember, for Joss everything has consequences and after tragic and utterly depressing deaths it is these otherwise impossible consequences we can hold onto and gasp at with shock, disbelief, laughter and the odd 'hoorah'.
extremely dimensionally transcendental
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FireflyGal, if you honestly feel that strongly, then I don't see why you would go see the film again. Because obviously this has colored your view of it and Joss.
But know that, as many others have pointed out, he does this for several reasons. He kills characters to break people's hearts, he does it to up the stakes, and he does it, usually, to propel a character arc that we may not see until the sequel (I for one, am extremely interested in seeing what place Zoe is in come the sequel, and what new developments will occur with her as a character, as a result of her dealing with losing Wash).
Also know, that it does pain him to do these things, but he does them because they make the story resonate, it gives it power, it sticks with you. He said in the past, that when he decided to kill the character of Tara on BtVS, he actually cried as he told the other writers. His characters are THAT close to him, but you can rant (and it is your right), just don't expect him to apologize. Many Tara fans got mad, and he explained himself, but he didn't apologize or "fix it."
And I understand that it hurts. It's supposed to. He did it for newbies AND us, though. I think his intention was to show newbies--who have seen countless action/sci fi films with no consequences--what kind of storyteller he is. That he has created a world where there are consequences, and people die, and that's a part of what makes "Serenity" different, and in most cases, better than what Hollywood churns out.
One last thing...eight people were entering a dangerous, life threatening situation--destroying their ship's ability to function, and with no means of escaping a larger, ruthless force (unlike, say, War Stories, where they could have fallen back and flown away).
So AT LEAST one person had to die, to make it at all realistic. And it raises the tension so much. Plus if nothing else ever came of it, it was worth it for me just to see Gina play Zoe's small moment of emotional breakdown right before Mal pulls her out of the way of the second harpoon. It was perfect.
If Joss hadn't killed Wash (and Book), he wouldn't be Joss. Besides, people would have died (maybe Wash and Book, maybe not) in the series eventually. Yet like the man says, we'll see them again...
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To quote Nathan Fillion on the people who started the save wash campain-"those people just don't get it"
"It's about how much freedom you can take away from somebody before they either fold or fight," Whedon says. "It's about the right to be wrong and the nature of human beings, that they need the freedom to be wrong. That they cannot be made to be better or perfect."--Joss Whedon on Serenity
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I was hurt. I was mad. I was sad.
I thought everyone was going to die.
And that's why he did it. When I watched the TV show, I never thought anyone was going to die. In fact, after the near scrapes with Kaylee in the pilot, Mal and Wash at Niska's Skyplex, and Book while they were unloading cattle, I had it in my head that no one was going to die. Not ever.
So he took away Wash and Book. I wouldn't have done it. If I felt I had to do it, I'd have done it differently. But you know what? No one would ever read or watch one of my stories, wide eyed and open mouthed, and wonder if anyone was going to get out alive.
As for pleasing newbies, I hope he does please them. I hope he pleases them a lot. Because as many of us fans as there are, there aren't enough of us to bring in sequels. Not by a long shot. We need the newbies to get what we want: Sequels.
So if Joss did two things… if he made me fear for characters I'd assumed were safe, and he turned up the realism for the newbies, I'm glad. All hail the Newbies and their millions of dollars of ticket sales. We need them so much.
I am much more put out by the fact that Mal got shot in the back by the Operative to zero effect. Jayne's remarkable recovery after being impaled by a rusty metal pole is also notable. These are things that made the film less real, and worked against Joss' other moments.
But, all in all, small complaints for a good film.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
One minor disagreement AnthonyT, I believe there are enough Browncoats to cause a sequel BUT just to be on the safe side, I too want newbies to attend and become fans. I already have several friends who don't know Firefly that will be seeing the movie.
Mind you , it's hard for me to think unbiased (on the Serenity account) but when I go to new movies and like characters, it pisses me off when they die, it doesn't really make me a fan of the writer. But since I seem to be in the minority on that count anyway regarding Serenity or other movies hopefully we will get a flood of new Browncoats after the movie! I just still feel betrayed by the script and I can't change that no matter how much reason is placed before me.
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Quote:
Originally posted by MikeyMo:Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:
if YOU read his quote from the Aussie interview he originally wasn't going to kill anyone but then it wouldn't ring true for the NEWCOMERS, not the Browncoats but the NEW fans.
Like I said in my previous post, I really don't think it would have rung true for me if no one had died. I appreciate you have a right to your opinion, but I really don't think accusations of Joss ignoring his fanbase, or tring to "get back" at Ron and Alan, have much credibility.
From this fan's perspective, at least, the deaths give the film more emotional resonance than a feel-good ending would have. They wouldn't be our BDHs if things went their way.
"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann
The getting back at Alan and Ron was a joke, it just caught me as funnt that they WERE the last 2 to sign on. I don't think I feel Joss IGNORED the fan base, I think it betrayed it and there's a difference in there. I know he was thinking about the Browncoats when he mentioned no one dying (in the Aussie Q & A) but when he changed his mind, well it was like a stab in the back. Sometimes it's better to be ignored, it's doesn't hurt as much (???)
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I don't think we got stabbed in the back. I think we got what we asked for. We wanted Joss to continue telling us stories in the Firefly verse. Joss did exactly that. It wasn't a fanfic. It was pure Joss. I went into the movie knowing that Joss might kill someone. Heck I have to go into every episode of a Joss tv show knowing that. I didn't really believe it was going to happen though. He's constantly able to dupe me into believing he'll go one way right before he goes another. I love it. It's what keeps me coming back. No matter what I think might happen...Joss is thinking of something else.
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Quote:
Yeah. This.
Fireflygal, you have the right to your opinion just like anyone else, I wasn't trying to dissuade you. I'm just saying you shouldn't 1) say Joss is ignoring or being unfair to the fanbase as a whole, because he isn't, and 2) accuse him of killing off characters that he loves just as much as you (probably more than you) for cheap or illegitimate reasons. If you didn't like it, fine. Not everyone likes everything. Doesn't mean Joss failed, or that he was being unfair or intentionally mean.
Sure sounded like you were trying to dissuade me
I certainly don't believe that Joss was being intentionally mean, not at all and I'm sure he does love the characters more than any of us. His reasons, if part of it is to hook newbies, are legit all I asked is to know WHY he did it so I could try to reconcile it within myself somehow. I do believe to what I was expecting/wanted to see, he did fail. Serenity wasn't the movie I wanted to see, now before you get teetchy again...that's an ok thing because if all the other Browncoats on this post accept it and like it that's great. Joss is NOT out to please little me (duh) he's out to make money for Universal with the best movie he feels he can make AND get new fans and please the old fans. I won't NOT go see it again and again because I feel the movie failed what I wanted to see. It's still an action packed great movie, just because I want to smack Joss with a glove and challenge him to a sword fight because of what he did doesn't make me less of a fan! It just makes me a more verbal one I aim to misbehave!
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Quote:
Originally posted by sefania:
I, too, was disappointed with the deaths of Book and Wash.
Yes, they are Joss' characters are he can do whatever he gorram pleases with them, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.
I can understand wanting to add realism to the film for the sake of the newbies. However, having watched Serenity with a newbie, what struck us most was that he didn't provide enough of a background for Book (especially) or Wash to fully comprehend how devastating their deaths were. And they were *devastating* to the fans.(I actually had someone tell me after the viewing that I should refrain from making any big decisions for a week or two, as it takes a while for the shock to wear off.)
Yes, it makes a sort of sense for characters to die. But if the show had not been cancelled, it would not have happened it the *next* episode. And for some fans, waiting so long for another glimpse of people we had grown to love, that is probably where expectations were at - a longer story arc, covering the ideas that would have been shown had the series continued (especially since we had already been hearing rumors of a trilogy!)
I think one of the things that upset me the most was that here we finally had a chance to interact with characters we had longed for - and didn't get the same level of interaction we had become accustomed to. It didn't feel as well-rounded and character-oriented. And that was frustrating. Yes, it was action-packed, and believe me, I love action as much as the next martial arts fan, but it wasn't as fulfilling because I *do* care about these characters.
Book's death served a purpose, and I could fathom how that decision came to be. (Hearing Ron Glass speak about his time with this cast, though, I am truly saddened that it had to happen this way.) But I was still frustrated - he appeared as a side character - not a part of the crew, as the fans knew him to be. It leaves out such a huge part of the background story and makes Book appear to be dispensable. Knowing more than was shown, I felt that Book's death *was* enough to show that not everyone is always going to make it out alright.
Which brings me to Wash...
I am distraught about Wash's death, not just because he was a great guy with a goofy sense of humor and the ability to not be in the center of the action, but also becuase of his relationship with Zoe. Here, finally, is a depiction of a healthy, mature, adult relationship - marriage on screen that isn't derogatory or whiny, featuring characters over the age of 25. I am disappointed that I will not get to see more of what they could explore together. (Albeit rumors have already started that Zoe may be pregnant, and it is more drama-filled to have Zoe raise her child without Wash.)
To be honest, Wash's death distracted me from the rest of the film. I didn't believe everyone else was going to die. I didn't believe he was dead. Zoe's simple "He's not coming" left me worlds of ideas for how Wash would make it through. It wasn't until the funeral scene before I realized the truth in her statement - he's really not coming.
Upon watching the scene at the end between Mal and River, it appears that (if I'm not mistaken) the answer to the question of "Then who's going to fly the ship?" will be River. And as much as River is the ultimate enigma in this 'verse, it was hard for me to sit silently and watch the entire focus become River. (Nothing against Summer Glau, a truly incredible actress, or against Joss' creation, as I love the skewed perspective River has.) But for me, Firefly was about nine truly unforgettable characters, interacting in a way that spoke volumes to me. And Serenity, which I was dying to see, was about River, with other characters in a supporting or even dispensable role.
The challenge for me, is that here is a movie I have been waiting for, hoping for, dying to see. I want to grab all of my friends and go on opening night and watch it and be able to bounce enthusiastically, even ecstatically, that we have our characters back and clamor for the nextNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by RiversBounty:
FireflyGal, if you honestly feel that strongly, then I don't see why you would go see the film again. Because obviously this has colored your view of it and Joss.
But know that, as many others have pointed out, he does this for several reasons. He kills characters to break people's hearts, he does it to up the stakes, and he does it, usually, to propel a character arc that we may not see until the sequel (I for one, am extremely interested in seeing what place Zoe is in come the sequel, and what new developments will occur with her as a character, as a result of her dealing with losing Wash).
Also know, that it does pain him to do these things, but he does them because they make the story resonate, it gives it power, it sticks with you. He said in the past, that when he decided to kill the character of Tara on BtVS, he actually cried as he told the other writers. His characters are THAT close to him, but you can rant (and it is your right), just don't expect him to apologize. Many Tara fans got mad, and he explained himself, but he didn't apologize or "fix it."
And I understand that it hurts. It's supposed to. He did it for newbies AND us, though. I think his intention was to show newbies--who have seen countless action/sci fi films with no consequences--what kind of storyteller he is. That he has created a world where there are consequences, and people die, and that's a part of what makes "Serenity" different, and in most cases, better than what Hollywood churns out.
One last thing...eight people were entering a dangerous, life threatening situation--destroying their ship's ability to function, and with no means of escaping a larger, ruthless force (unlike, say, War Stories, where they could have fallen back and flown away).
So AT LEAST one person had to die, to make it at all realistic. And it raises the tension so much. Plus if nothing else ever came of it, it was worth it for me just to see Gina play Zoe's small moment of emotional breakdown right before Mal pulls her out of the way of the second harpoon. It was perfect.
If Joss hadn't killed Wash (and Book), he wouldn't be Joss. Besides, people would have died (maybe Wash and Book, maybe not) in the series eventually. Yet like the man says, we'll see them again...
Definitely not looking for an apology, just a simple why. Just want to understand. And I am really interested in his original idea of keeping everyone alive. I wonder if there would be a post here I'm calling Joss out because he DIDN'T kill one of BDH's if Serenity had a happy ending
And I will go see the movie over and over because I'm still a Browncoat, still support the actors and the cast and Universal for supporting Joss. Just can't say I'm really keen on Joss at the moment
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"...it’s definitely the story I wanted to tell, the way I wanted to tell it." - Joss
That's enough for me. :)
Freedom - Peace - Serenity
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"...it’s definitely the story I wanted to tell, the way I wanted to tell it." - Joss
That's enough for me. :)
Freedom - Peace - Serenity
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Quote:
Originally posted by mindseye:
"...it’s definitely the story I wanted to tell, the way I wanted to tell it." - Joss
That's enough for me. :)
Freedom - Peace - Serenity
Not me
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Watch this.......
Joss has been playing us with a sick sence of humor
Washs death was a part of some twisted alternate storyline, which of course will be included with the DVD when it come time for that...
Perhaps the same with Book ( Maybe Simon saves him )
With the pre screenings and hype... Joss is having fun with the Browncoats, watching us twist
At least I hope so.....
Soldiers Prayer:
Dear God..... If there is a god
Save my Soul.... If I have a soul
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Somehow I don't think any one of Joss' responses to why, and there have been responses, are going to satify you.
In a realistic world, sometimes death just happens. Unfair, unjustifiable death with no rhyme or reason. Wash unfortunately happened to be sitting in his chair when that harpoon crashed through and impaled him. That's a perfectly viable thing to illustrate, in my opinion. That life is just that fragile, unpredictable and sometimes you're screwed.
There's death like Book's, where he died defending his home and his flock in a very heroic fashion, there's the "just" death of Dr. Matthias, who some might argue deserved death because of his experiments, and there's the people on Miranda, who were victims like River, who had no say in any of it. And Wash's death, something he knew was a risk when he agreed to the plan, where he died doing what he believed was right.
But asking why is like asking why someone gets killed by a hit and run, five seconds after someone who crossed the street without incident. Why did that car come at THAT EXACT TIME? Who knows?
Like I said above, that's what I believe was being illustrated--that there is no answer, because the world is not that simple. It's a bunch of "What if?"'s most of the time.
And if he didn't kill Wash, it would've been someone else. Because you need to feel the peril, the pain. With the story being about the characters, if you don't buy that they might not make it, the final battle is just several minutes of, "Nice gunplay, but meh, they're all gonna be fine anyway."
I don't know what other kind of answer you expect.
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Just my 2 cents...
I know a lot of people can accept that Wash and Book die without much fuss. I only wish I could do the same. I watched FireFly in order to escape reality. If I needed a fresh dose of death and dying, I only need to look at the news. I was really hoping that Serenity would supply me with a continuation of FireFly and that I could leave the theater happy. Unfortunatly, I don't see how people can leave happy when their favorite characters are dead. I felt like I lost two of my friends when Wash and Book died, and I really have no need to pay any more money to feel that way again.
I had planned on seeing Serenity every week (or at least every other) in order to supply as much support as I could for a sequel. However, I just no longer want to spend my money in order to feel sad. It's just too bad, really.
I definitely respect all of you who are OK with how Serenity turned out. I really wish I could be one of you. Unfortunately, I will just have to hope that if a sequel is created, it will bring me more joy than this one did.
Thanks for listening...
Stroess
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stroess:
...I will just have to hope that if a sequel is created, it will bring me more joy than this one did.
But it *did* bring you joy?
Just not as much as you wanted. BWAH!
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Watch this.......
Joss has been playing us with a sick sence of humor
Washs death was a part of some twisted alternate storyline, which of course will be included with the DVD when it come time for that...
Perhaps the same with Book ( Maybe Simon saves him )
With the pre screenings and hype... Joss is having fun with the Browncoats, watching us twist
At least I hope so.....
Soldiers Prayer:
Dear God..... If there is a god
Save my Soul.... If I have a soul
I like your thinking. I kept hoping it was all a bad joke when I saw the first 2 "unfinished" previews and hoped the final cut would have 9 health members!
I aim to misbehave!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stroess:
Just my 2 cents...
I know a lot of people can accept that Wash and Book die without much fuss. I only wish I could do the same. I watched FireFly in order to escape reality. If I needed a fresh dose of death and dying, I only need to look at the news. I was really hoping that Serenity would supply me with a continuation of FireFly and that I could leave the theater happy. Unfortunatly, I don't see how people can leave happy when their favorite characters are dead. I felt like I lost two of my friends when Wash and Book died, and I really have no need to pay any more money to feel that way again.
I had planned on seeing Serenity every week (or at least every other) in order to supply as much support as I could for a sequel. However, I just no longer want to spend my money in order to feel sad. It's just too bad, really.
I definitely respect all of you who are OK with how Serenity turned out. I really wish I could be one of you. Unfortunately, I will just have to hope that if a sequel is created, it will bring me more joy than this one did.
Thanks for listening...
Stroess
Thank you so much for making my point. I'm not alone! You could've come to the rescue a bit sooner though, felt like Serenity Valley in this post!
But listen Stroess, even though I hated what happenend I will still support the movies and I TOTALLY understand where you're coming from. Please DON'T withdraw your support because Joss betrayed us. He did have the right to write what he wanted, we don't have to accept it or like it (I still just wanna know why) but we still want the sequels, right? We still should support the actors who gave their hearts to their roles. I am bitching and moaning but I will go see it repeatedly. Please continue your support. Even if you don't want to see it, buy a ticket for a friend or several.
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Hey FFG,
We talked a bit about this at D*C. I'm sorry it looks like things will remain the way they were. As I said then, I hate that it happened too, but it doesn't ruin it for me. As others have brought up, Things were the same with Doyle(in Angel), Tara(in Buffy), and many others. Unfortunately, we got to see the others move on and/or deal with the loss in the following weeks, here we have to wait a couple of years for the sequel.
Now this won't make you feel good, I read somewhere that the crew was originally just 5. Joss later brought it up to 9. I think we were lucky to have all 9 as long as we did, and I half expect to lose 2 more in the next one to bring it down to the original 5. Now I don't know who the original 5 were, but based on the "no happy relationships" thing, I'd guess we may be short a doctor and a companion by the end of 2 or 3.
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I haven't read this thread, but I can't wait to see the movie to find out what it's all about.
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Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
I haven't read this thread, but I can't wait to see the movie to find out what it's all about.
Boy are you in for a "surprise"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jadehand:
Hey FFG,
We talked a bit about this at D*C. I'm sorry it looks like things will remain the way they were. As I said then, I hate that it happened too, but it doesn't ruin it for me. As others have brought up, Things were the same with Doyle(in Angel), Tara(in Buffy), and many others. Unfortunately, we got to see the others move on and/or deal with the loss in the following weeks, here we have to wait a couple of years for the sequel.
Now this won't make you feel good, I read somewhere that the crew was originally just 5. Joss later brought it up to 9. I think we were lucky to have all 9 as long as we did, and I half expect to lose 2 more in the next one to bring it down to the original 5. Now I don't know who the original 5 were, but based on the "no happy relationships" thing, I'd guess we may be short a doctor and a companion by the end of 2 or 3.
Visit WWW.Marillion.Com for a better way to live
"Dreaming the dream that only the sleepless know."
Yeah, Jadehand, we had a nice little talk at DC. Since I wasn't a Joss fan I can't answer to the Buffy and Angel "killings". I should have realized, though, that since he'd done it before, he'd do it again, I just honestly didn't think he'd do it in the first movie. But Joss says he doesn't write with the sequel in mind. I guess we all wait and see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:
I have been lucky enough to see Serenity three times now and I hate it more each time I see it. No, allow me to rephrase that, I hate Joss Whedon more each time I see Serenity. I have heard that same phrase uttered from many other Browncoats, as well, after each preview. I’m calling Joss Whedon out onto the carpet to answer to the fans. Why? Why did you take the sky from us?
We all know what I’m talking about – Book and Wash. There was no reason in the ‘verse for them to die. I don’t care how noble their deaths were. It’s a story; it CAN have a happy ending. All the characters can live through the trilogy. Yes, there will be a trilogy if the Browncoats have any say in the matter and we do. We will see the movie, we will bring friends and repeat numerous times. We will make Fox wish they never cancelled Firefly. I will see it again and again despite what Whedon did; ripping my heart out by killing two of the wonderful characters I had come to love and laugh with.
Rumor has it that all nine cast members are signed for the trilogy but I don’t want flashbacks, the Browncoats don’t want flashbacks. We want nine characters alive and well, (we’ll even take wounded), to move into the future – together – on new adventures.
Does anyone else feel betrayed?
I think you have a right to your response, and I can tell you that it's a response that I saw in a lot of people after the screening I went to see. I write novels, and yes I know what Joss had in mind by killing both characters, but that doesn't mean it's going to sit well with all fans or that it was even necessary.
Did Wash's death create a sense of panic and disbelief in the third act for loyal fans of Firefly, sure it did. Does that mean he had to do it to achieve that affect, of course not.
One thing that gets limited discussion in the spoiler threads is just how indestructible the captain is in his final duel with the agent. Here Joss pushes believability to its raggedy edge in the opposite direction of Wash and Book.
Death is a really tricky thing to pull off when you're dealing with beloved characters. You shouldn't feel bad for expressing your anger. I think the film has a lot of merit despite its flaws, but I can certainly understand how Wash and Book's death could ruin the movie for some.
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First I want to thank FFG for makin this thread. Honestly, while I understand the reasons for killing 2 characters off....It didnt help me enjoy the movie. I appreciate you expressing your grief....and join in empathising with it. It is healthy to express these things...and makes me feel much better that I am not alone.
Althogh I am looking forward to actually watching the end. I was 2 shellshocked to take much in the 1st time around.
Quote:
Originally posted by Shakespeare:
One thing that gets limited discussion in the spoiler threads is just how indestructible the captain is in his final duel with the agent. Here Joss pushes believability to its raggedy edge in the opposite direction of Wash and Book.
The whole nerve pinch thing was a bit...um...well...Joss action shortcut really (he does that). But the whole thing about people gettin shot and stabbed through and still going.....
While NOT what we expect to see after a diet of hollywood action in which 1 shot kills...fact is that its the common expectation that is wrong...not Joss in this case.
Most people, when shot or stabbed...go down because they are in pain, shock...or just because thats what they are expected to do. This is a purely psychological reaction...those who are prepared, determined, on drugs that dull pain, or just really really hyped-up wont drop till they bleed out unless the CNS has been disrupted (hit to brain or spine). Reputable ballistics websites and police shooting statistics will varify this...
I am guessing that at the end the characters were feeling pretty determined.
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I know that Simon and River originally weren't going to be part of the crew; they just liked their performance so much that the writers decided to keep them. Possibly Book and Inara? Or Jayne? I don't see how they could not have Mal, Kaylee, Zoe and Wash as four for sure.
Personally, I would have felt FAR more betrayed by Joss if nobody had died. I would have felt betrayed if I went to see Serenity - a movie of realism, of wit, and intelligence - and came out after seeing a fairy tale. Sure, it hurt. Sure, we'd have loved to have seen more of them. But the fact that you felt something at all made Serenity so much better.
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"But the whole thing about people gettin shot and stabbed through and still going.....
While NOT what we expect to see after a diet of hollywood action in which 1 shot kills...fact is that its the common expectation that is wrong...not Joss in this case.
Most people, when shot or stabbed...go down because they are in pain, shock...or just because thats what they are expected to do. This is a purely psychological reaction...those who are prepared, determined, on drugs that dull pain, or just really really hyped-up wont drop till they bleed out unless the CNS has been disrupted (hit to brain or spine). Reputable ballistics websites and police shooting statistics will varify this...
I am guessing that at the end the characters were feeling pretty determined."
Hello,
As a fan of ballistics and ONS statistics, I can confirm that one-shot-stops only occur a percentage of the time.
However, the expectation given to us in the Firefly universe is that when people are shot, something happens. They fall down, they get hurt, or they die. There is never a case in the entire series or movie where someone is shot and there is no effect...
except when the Operative shoots Mal. In this case, nothing happens, except a verbal exchange between Mal and the Operative. There is not any apparent injury or effect. Mal simply turns around, complains about being shot in the back, exchanges words, and wins in a fast-draw before entering extended melee combat.
I will concur with those who claim that THIS is the most grievous error in the movie. This scene stretched realism more than any other.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Yeah know what you mean fireflygal, when I got spoiled by accident it pissed me off no end, and it killed my feelings for Firefly. Its odd, but it died that day, on an enthusiasm scale from 1 to 100, i was at 90 but it dropped to 5 i guess.
I don't hate it, but if there never is another i don't really care. Besides, they all say its not more firefly its a new hybrid (Firefly is dead, long live Serenity).
Of course Joss has oddly enough said we'll see them again if there is a second movie they will both be back, or rather "see them again". Perhap sin flashbacks, who knows, not being Trek I'm not sure his universe is wide enough to have them resurrected again.
Also a note to the drones, who usually go on about how its his creation and he can do anything he likes etc. SHUT UP! I have a right to feel and think about this anyway I want, and I don't give a shit what you feel about it, so shut up already.
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If you don't give "a shit about what you think" then why should we give a shit about what you think? Say it with me F-I-C-T-I-C-I-O-U-S CHAR-ACT-ERS.
"It's about how much freedom you can take away from somebody before they either fold or fight," Whedon says. "It's about the right to be wrong and the nature of human beings, that they need the freedom to be wrong. That they cannot be made to be better or perfect."--Joss Whedon on Serenity
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When I saw Serenity, I assumed that Mal was wearing some sort of bullet proof vest under his shirt in the final battle, as we have seen Zoe (and Mal I think?) wear in the series and the Operative wear earlier in the movie. I have not read confirmation of this anywhere, but it made sense to me at the time. That's why he could get shot in the back and turn around and give the Operative attitude for it, rather than collapse in pain.
As for Mal getting run-through with a sword, well, I have no explanation for that....
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To FFG from Duces Tecum and Zipply, two original, hardcore, die hard Browncoats who have also been here since DAY ONE.
Duces:
FFG, my fellow coworker and Browncoat buddy Zipply just told me about this thread which is why I haven't been on earlier to say, "You go girl." Zip and I both agree with you completely. I'm not very eloquent but he is and I am going to try to tell you what he said. He made some points I want to share.
We were never Buffy or Angel fans, nor do we worship Joss Whedon. We are Firefly fans and are grateful to him for creating the 'verse.
How many of us would have hung around for the last two years knowing how this movie would turn out (meaning, two of the ensemble, our beloved characters, would be snuffed)? The music that we enjoyed so much in Firefly apparently was not good enough for the movie. The Western aspects, ditto.
Most of this year we have stood around discussing Serenity and making excuses for Joss. "He had to do the things he did to make sure the movie is a hit so we can have two more movies."
Friends I have to say, the more I read about the movie, the more I have to say, "Yup, it's a Buffy in space flick." Firefly is over, two of our BDH's are dead and if Joss is so almighty why didn't he figure out a way to at least keep Book on? I think the thing I hated the most is that I felt, perceived, that Ron Glass NEEDED THE WORK! and Joss cheated him out of gainful employment! Alan Tudyk has so many choices, he's okay and I'm not at all concerned about him even though I hate like hell that Wash is dead.
At this point, the only reason I am going to the movie is because it has been a planned event with many Browncoats for a long time. I positively will not be seeing it a second time.
Zip:
"One thing I liked about our little 'verse was that it was comprised of thoughtful adult types (regardless of actual ages). I fear after the release of the movie, FFF will become chock full of gothic teens saying, "Did you see the way River swung that axe? That was awesome, duuude!" I liked that us original Browncoats were more interested in the way that Book swung that dialogue."
Anyway, we both feel the same way, and are in agreement with you FFG. I'm sure we'll be chastized and criticized but what the hey, we're Browncoats, we're tough and we can take it.
And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling. Mal, Train Job
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Quote:
Originally posted by nakedandarticulate:
If you don't give "a shit about what you think" then why should we give a shit about what you think?
Well if you werent totally dense you would have understod that you aren't. I specifically wrote I wasn't talking to you and your kind, only the original poster.
Quote:
Originally posted by nakedandarticulate:
Say it with me F-I-C-T-I-C-I-O-U-S CHAR-ACT-ERS.
Ok retard, try to get this through you dense scull: REAL FEELINGS!
The whole point of making art is to create feelings in the viewer - that doesn't mean the work that created those feelings is something we agree with. And just because you are a hollow shell without emotion doesn't mean everybody else is.
No kindly stop writing to me, idiots are such a chore.
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Quote:
Originally posted by FlyingTams:
Also a note to the drones, who usually go on about how its his creation and he can do anything he likes etc. SHUT UP! I have a right to feel and think about this anyway I want, and I don't give a shit what you feel about it, so shut up already.
To be fair, it is the right of 'the drones' to think and feel about that any way they want. They feel that it's Joss' creation and he can do anything he likes and that they'll accept it. That's how THEY think and feel. Would you like it if you had twenty responses to this post saying "It's Joss' creation and he can do anything he likes, and I don't give a shit what you feel about it, so shut up already"?
* Grammar fixed
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I don't appreciate being labelled a "drone," thank you very much. I have just as much a right to express a counterpoint as you do to agree to someone else's. And I never told anyone how to feel, a question of "Why?" was posed, and I tried to answer it as best I could.
I'm a big supporter of Joss Whedon. No other stories have moved me the way his has. That's a fact, I will not apologize for it, and it does not make a drone or a fanboy. While there have been some things across his shows I feel could have been executed somewhat better, for the most part, he keeps me enthralled, making me laugh, cry, and everything in between.
I love "Serenity." I saw it, and I was riveted the entire time. Wash's and Book's deaths made me gasp and tear, and left me stunned. But I was proud that they died doing what they believed was right, and hopefully their sacrifices to see the truth told, will mean a (probably slow) change in the 'Verse.
But the crew getting the signal out and scoring a small victory, Kaylee and Simon finally getting together, a hint that Mal and Inara would maybe progress, River's recovery, Mal finding belief in something again, and to see Serenity repaired and "still flyin'" all made me cheer.
Joss moved me through a range of emotions. The only other film to do that recently for me, was last year's "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind," which I saw four times in the theater. The point is, it's rare for me to experience ANYTHING as a passive moviegoer, and for Joss' two hour story to do that as strongly as I did, well, I thank him. A lot.
"Serenity" was a continuation of where "Firefly" would have gone, and even if there's no sequels, I'm glad to have gotten to see it. I'm sorry others don't feel the same, but to each their own.
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I'm the idiot?
Understood is not spelled understod.
It's"NoW kindly stop writing me". Not "No stop..."
Also,I love the "you and your kind" bit. Nice talk nazi. 
As far as a hollow shell without emotion?
FUCK YOU!....I believe that was rage I was feeling.
"It's about how much freedom you can take away from somebody before they either fold or fight," Whedon says. "It's about the right to be wrong and the nature of human beings, that they need the freedom to be wrong. That they cannot be made to be better or perfect."--Joss Whedon on Serenity
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Drones are those who spew lithany without thinking.
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I agree with you FireflyGal to a large extent - for all the fans that, according to a certain someone, made his making the movie possible, for the fans that have hung in there and waited 2 long years after F*X “killed” all the characters originally, just hoping to see their favorite characters alive on screen again... for them to be repaid by having 2 of those characters killed in the first and possibly only movie... just seems like a shitty way to say thanks.
Wait until the next one to break some hearts, but give those fans something to celebrate with the first one, they really deserve it.
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.net
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Quote:
Originally posted by nakedandarticulate:
I'm the idiot?
Clearly, if you spew nonense like its not real, they are just characters.
Quote:
Understood is not spelled understod.
You are also an idiot for starting to focus on irrelevant spelling mistakes, this is the equivalent of chatting not a school essay. English is not my first language and I can't be bothered to install a spell checker at this machine I'm at now, you clearly comprehended what I meant (and i assure you, I spell infinitely better in your language that you do in mine)
Quote:
Also,I love the "you and your kind" bit.
Now go and bully someone jerk.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phoebe:Quote:
To be fair, it is the right of 'the drones' to think and feel about that any way they want. They feel that it's Joss' creation and he can do anything he likes and that they'll accept it. That's how THEY think and feel.
Just rebelling against the hypocrisy of them usually thinking its ok they can feel what they want but that others are not allowed. Sure, they are allowed as long as I don't have to hear it ;)
Quote:
* Grammar fixed
You are handy to have around ;)
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Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I agree with you FireflyGal to a large extent - for all the fans that, according to a certain someone, made his making the movie possible, for the fans that have hung in there and waited 2 long years after F*X “killed” all the characters originally, just hoping to see their favorite characters alive on screen again... for them to be repaid by having 2 of those characters killed in the first and possibly only movie... just seems like a shitty way to say thanks.
Wait until the next one to break some hearts, but give those fans something to celebrate with the first one, they really deserve it.
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.net
Too true, Pizmo, I couldn't agree more. This is for Joss
And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling. Mal, Train Job
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Quote:
Originally posted by FlyingTams:
Yeah know what you mean fireflygal, when I got spoiled by accident it pissed me off no end, and it killed my feelings for Firefly. Its odd, but it died that day, on an enthusiasm scale from 1 to 100, i was at 90 but it dropped to 5 i guess.
I don't hate it, but if there never is another i don't really care. Besides, they all say its not more firefly its a new hybrid (Firefly is dead, long live Serenity).
Of course Joss has oddly enough said we'll see them again if there is a second movie they will both be back, or rather "see them again". Perhap sin flashbacks, who knows, not being Trek I'm not sure his universe is wide enough to have them resurrected again.
Also a note to the drones, who usually go on about how its his creation and he can do anything he likes etc. SHUT UP! I have a right to feel and think about this anyway I want, and I don't give a shit what you feel about it, so shut up already.
Appreciate you being on my side on this one, FlyingTams but please, the "drones" you refer to are still Browncoats. I have not said one nasty thing in any of my replies (I think). I want to keep this conversation civilized. We both have the right to be pissed off and betrayed but please let the other Browncoats have their say too. You don't have to read their replies
I think it would have been worse for me if I were spoiled by accident, not that the shock at the theater was much better.... I do have to say, it's still a great movie and I still consider it Firefly, not really some sort of hybrid. Mal's a little darker but Joss had wanted him that way originally.
We're all Browncoats here let's be peacable about this.
I aim to misbehave!
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Quote:
Originally posted by nakedandarticulate:
I'm the idiot?
Understood is not spelled understod.
It's"NoW kindly stop writing me". Not "No stop..."
Also,I love the "you and your kind" bit. Nice talk nazi.
As far as a hollow shell without emotion?
FUCK YOU!....I believe that was rage I was feeling.
"It's about how much freedom you can take away from somebody before they either fold or fight," Whedon says. "It's about the right to be wrong and the nature of human beings, that they need the freedom to be wrong. That they cannot be made to be better or perfect."--Joss Whedon on Serenity
Hi N&A, I am hoping to keep this a civil post from here forward. I have requested FlyingTams "be nice" and hope you will do the same (let's nevermind who started it, ok). I definitely see everyone's point, I'm a Libra, I do that well
but I don't have to agree with them I aim to misbehave!
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Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:
Appreciate you being on my side on this one, FlyingTams but please, the "drones" you refer to are still Browncoats. I have not said one nasty thing in any of my replies (I think). I want to keep this conversation civilized.
Well its your thread fireflygal :)
Quote:
You don't have to read their replies
Good idea ;)
Quote:
I think it would have been worse for me if I were spoiled by accident, not that the shock at the theater was much better....
Not sure what is better, at least now I'm prepared.
Quote:
I do have to say, it's still a great movie and I still consider it Firefly, not really some sort of hybrid. Mal's a little darker but Joss had wanted him that way originally.
I'm sure it will do well. Actually I'm not sure, I guess there is a part of me still hoping it will. But perhaps its just too strange for the audience at large to be exposed to good dialogue.
Quote:
We're all Browncoats here let's be peacable about this.
I'm not, and never were - but I loved Firefly there, for a moment.
Peace is just the interval between wars, best spent preparing for the next.
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Quote:
Originally posted by FlyingTams:Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:
Appreciate you being on my side on this one, FlyingTams but please, the "drones" you refer to are still Browncoats. I have not said one nasty thing in any of my replies (I think). I want to keep this conversation civilized.
Well its your thread fireflygal :)Quote:
You don't have to read their replies
Good idea ;)Quote:
I think it would have been worse for me if I were spoiled by accident, not that the shock at the theater was much better....
Not sure what is better, at least now I'm prepared.Quote:
I do have to say, it's still a great movie and I still consider it Firefly, not really some sort of hybrid. Mal's a little darker but Joss had wanted him that way originally.
I'm sure it will do well. Actually I'm not sure, I guess there is a part of me still hoping it will. But perhaps its just too strange for the audience at large to be exposed to good dialogue.Quote:
We're all Browncoats here let's be peacable about this.
I'm not, and never were - but I loved Firefly there, for a moment.
Peace is just the interval between wars, best spent preparing for the next.
Thanks for keeping the peace here FlyingTams, let's make that interval as long as possible
How come you're not a Browncoat? You're a fan, right? You watched the show. You're on the boards. That makes you a Browncoat, at least that's my definition.
I aim to misbehave!
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Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I agree with you FireflyGal to a large extent - for all the fans that, according to a certain someone, made his making the movie possible, for the fans that have hung in there and waited 2 long years after F*X “killed” all the characters originally, just hoping to see their favorite characters alive on screen again... for them to be repaid by having 2 of those characters killed in the first and possibly only movie... just seems like a shitty way to say thanks.
Wait until the next one to break some hearts, but give those fans something to celebrate with the first one, they really deserve it.
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.net]
Thank you, thank you, thank you PB! None of the friends that I know hate what Joss did have posted, so it was rather lonely for a while.
By the way, I love scifiradio (the free version) but it often just stops on me
I aim to misbehave!
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Quote:
Originally posted by DucesTecum:
To FFG from Duces Tecum and Zipply, two original, hardcore, die hard Browncoats who have also been here since DAY ONE.
Duces:
FFG, my fellow coworker and Browncoat buddy Zipply just told me about this thread which is why I haven't been on earlier to say, "You go girl." Zip and I both agree with you completely. I'm not very eloquent but he is and I am going to try to tell you what he said. He made some points I want to share.
We were never Buffy or Angel fans, nor do we worship Joss Whedon. We are Firefly fans and are grateful to him for creating the 'verse.
How many of us would have hung around for the last two years knowing how this movie would turn out (meaning, two of the ensemble, our beloved characters, would be snuffed)? The music that we enjoyed so much in Firefly apparently was not good enough for the movie. The Western aspects, ditto.
Most of this year we have stood around discussing Serenity and making excuses for Joss. "He had to do the things he did to make sure the movie is a hit so we can have two more movies."
Friends I have to say, the more I read about the movie, the more I have to say, "Yup, it's a Buffy in space flick." Firefly is over, two of our BDH's are dead and if Joss is so almighty why didn't he figure out a way to at least keep Book on? I think the thing I hated the most is that I felt, perceived, that Ron Glass NEEDED THE WORK! and Joss cheated him out of gainful employment! Alan Tudyk has so many choices, he's okay and I'm not at all concerned about him even though I hate like hell that Wash is dead.
At this point, the only reason I am going to the movie is because it has been a planned event with many Browncoats for a long time. I positively will not be seeing it a second time.
Zip:
"One thing I liked about our little 'verse was that it was comprised of thoughtful adult types (regardless of actual ages). I fear after the release of the movie, FFF will become chock full of gothic teens saying, "Did you see the way River swung that axe? That was awesome, duuude!" I liked that us original Browncoats were more interested in the way that Book swung that dialogue."
Anyway, we both feel the same way, and are in agreement with you FFG. I'm sure we'll be chastized and criticized but what the hey, we're Browncoats, we're tough and we can take it.
And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling. Mal, Train Job
Thanks DT and Zipply, now I have visions of Goths becoming Browncoats, I didn't need to think about that!
It would certainly be nice if we Browncoats could hold Firefly as our little secret but it is a business and we need those Goths and teeny boppers and everyone so Serenity can be a success and we can see what Joss the Ripper has in mind for the sequel, who dies this time??? 
Even though Serenity did not go the way we wanted, I hope you guys will still see it more than once. Let's face it, it really is a very actiony movie and worth watching Thanks for coming out on my side, appreciate the support!
I aim to misbehave!
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I heard 1 Browncoat say that Joss has the idea for all of them to die, before it's all over. Except maybe River. Who knows? I have not taken time to read through this thread, as I'm sure other such 'nuggets' of joyful speculation have been dropped by other posters.
I'll say this. For the story to work, it makes sense that Book died the way he did. Could it have been done differently ? Hell yes! But I have a feeling this death was a mutual idea. Or I DID think that, before I heard the Ron Glass interview on the Serenity podcast. Now, I don't know.
As for Wash? It seemed as senseless as it was sudden. I had the oppotunity to watch that scene twice, and I still don't see why it had to happen that way. That it HAD to happen, might be less of a story/plot issue and more of a Alan Tudyk / Hollywood actor issue. Contracts and future working availabilty might have forced Joss to do somethin drastic. Again, I have no clue, just my $ 0.02 worth.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I heard 1 Browncoat say that Joss has the idea for all of them to die, before it's all over. Except maybe River. Who knows? I have not taken time to read through this thread, as I'm sure other such 'nuggets' of joyful speculation have been dropped by other posters.
I'll say this. For the story to work, it makes sense that Book died the way he did. Could it have been done differently ? Hell yes! But I have a feeling this death was a mutual idea. Or I DID think that, before I heard the Ron Glass interview on the Serenity podcast. Now, I don't know.
As for Wash? It seemed as senseless as it was sudden. I had the oppotunity to watch that scene twice, and I still don't see why it had to happen that way. That it HAD to happen, might be less of a story/plot issue and more of a Alan Tudyk / Hollywood actor issue. Contracts and future working availabilty might have forced Joss to do somethin drastic. Again, I have no clue, just my $ 0.02 worth.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
Please AURaptor, enough with the good news, only 1 left standing in the end, boy what a post I'll start if that happens!
Say I missed you at DragonCon, what happened?
I aim to misbehave!
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Ya know ... I haven't yet seen the BDM, but I was spoiled about this thanks to a careless click elsewhere. The news hit me like an anvil to the gut.
But ....
I'm a Browncoat, but certainly not a "drone." I'm a cantankerous, skeptical, hard-to-please pain the the ass, who happens to feel near-worship for this thing Joss created--and I pretty much loathe everything else he's done, so that's going some.
I'm still going to give the film a chance. I've heard it makes sense, from Browncoats whose taste and judgement I've granted grudging respect. I've heard from those who've seen it multiple times, and who are still okay with it. I'm prepared to enjoy the hell out of the BDM, shocks and all, be appalled at the moments Joss decided I should be appalled at, and come out of the experience wringing wet and perversely overjoyed at the whole experience.
I'm willing to trust Joss, sonafabitch that he is.
---------------------------
I didn't do it.
You can't prove it.
The sheep are lying.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spinland:
Ya know ... I haven't yet seen the BDM, but I was spoiled about this thanks to a careless click elsewhere. The news hit me like an anvil to the gut.
But ....
I'm a Browncoat, but certainly not a "drone." I'm a cantankerous, skeptical, hard-to-please pain the the ass, who happens to feel near-worship for this thing Joss created--and I pretty much loathe everything else he's done, so that's going some.
I'm still going to give the film a chance. I've heard it makes sense, from Browncoats whose taste and judgement I've granted grudging respect. I've heard from those who've seen it multiple times, and who are still okay with it. I'm prepared to enjoy the hell out of the BDM, shocks and all, be appalled at the moments Joss decided I should be appalled at, and come out of the experience wringing wet and perversely overjoyed at the whole experience.
I'm willing to trust Joss, sonafabitch that he is.
---------------------------
I didn't do it.
You can't prove it.
The sheep are lying.
Sorry about you being spoiled, that's no fun! but you will enjoy the movie, just as I did. You'll be pissed just like I was. In the end we're all still Browncoats and hopefully we'll all support the movie, pissed or not!
I aim to misbehave!
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he start-----If you read my first post I was civil.The main point was I was just asking a question.If you read my profile, you know that I love this universe.The anger posts,were immature but I mean seriously how can you take my anger serious when my screen name is NAKEDANDARTICULATE. (insert laugh track here) Bottom line, I just want this film to do well, not just for Joss, or for sequels, or for the actors, or even for the other universe he created-buffster. I want it to do well,because everyone here is a FAN of this universe.It touched something within all of us.It may hurt(I cried at the funeral scene,and when Tara died and when Wes died,and especially when Anya didn't understand death) but it also brought us joy and passion ,wonder and above all hope.So that is all, sorry
"It's about how much freedom you can take away from somebody before they either fold or fight," Whedon says. "It's about the right to be wrong and the nature of human beings, that they need the freedom to be wrong. That they cannot be made to be better or perfect."--Joss Whedon on Serenity
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Spread love, not war!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Retro:
I can't say it any better than these people
ditto.
Wash's death made my inner child cry, yet I still think it falls into place perfectly.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spinland:
Ya know ... I haven't yet seen the BDM, but I was spoiled about this thanks to a careless click elsewhere. The news hit me like an anvil to the gut.
But ...
I'm a Browncoat, but certainly not a "drone." I'm a cantankerous, skeptical, hard-to-please pain the the ass, who happens to feel near-worship for this thing Joss created--and I pretty much loathe everything else he's done, so that's going some.
I'm still going to give the film a chance. I've heard it makes sense, from Browncoats whose taste and judgement I've granted grudging respect. I've heard from those who've seen it multiple times, and who are still okay with it. I'm prepared to enjoy the hell out of the BDM, shocks and all, be appalled at the moments Joss decided I should be appalled at, and come out of the experience wringing wet and perversely overjoyed at the whole experience.
I'm willing to trust Joss, sonafabitch that he is.
---------------------------
I didn't do it.
You can't prove it.
The sheep are lying.
Some love/hate thing you have going for Joss there..heh heh. And my condolences for you having been spoilt and not even seen the BDM yet. As for my own self, I'm late to the whole Joss worhsip thing. Firefly definatly has touched me far more than anything else he's done, but I like going back to watch repeats of Angel (more ) and Buffy ( not so much ), just to get a 'feel' for his writing. I've become quite good at picking out specific lines,words, phrases that appear in all 3 shows.
Anyway, I enjoyed the BDM more the 2nd time. Even knowing what was gonna happen. Or mabye because....? It definatly has its moments that will knock your socks off. Did for me.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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