Okay, it was a mistake to let go of Season 4, but now on to 5!

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Monday, September 19, 2005 04:42
VIEWED: 15303
PAGE 1 of 1

CHRISISALL

Saturday, September 10, 2005 10:11 PM (P)

Selling season 4 to get Battlestar Galactica S1 was a mistake, 'cause after all's said and done, er...well, I liked BTVS S4 better.
(no hisses and boos please)

But that's the past, I have season 5 now!!
Even before I start it, I'll ask...Adding a bratty teen to the show???WTH

As always, jumpin' the gun Chrisisall

PERIDIDDLE

Sunday, September 11, 2005 3:20 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Even before I start it, I'll ask...Adding a bratty teen to the show???WTH

With ya right there buddy. And I was twelve when I watched season five for the first time. 14 now, and still can't stand her much.

On the upside - Dawn finds her place in season 7. She's very easy to get along with once she grows up. Till then...well. Yeah. I wish you luck, and welcome to season five nonetheless! One of my personal least favorite seasons, for some reason, but still some pretty lovely TV. Gorgeously shot, too. Joss & co. flaunt their directorial skills so much in that season. ^_^

"Bwaa...it's kind of a warrior...strikes fear into the hearts of..."

BELASERA

Sunday, September 11, 2005 5:07 AM (P)

Simple Answer to the painful dilemma of picking one show over another-
Netflix.
The Geek's Best Freind

And hey, when'm MY random mystically inserted little sister gonna show up?

"I'll be in my bunk."

JACQUI

Sunday, September 11, 2005 5:48 AM (P)

I was one of the very few people who didn't find Dawn that annoying.

Okay, yes, if I heard her scream "Get out get out get out!" ONE MORE FREAKIN' time, I was going to kill something small and furry, but that's beside the point.

She's not that bad. Michelle T does the best she can with a teenager written as though she was 6 years old. The character gets a lot better as she's allowed to grow into a teenager.

And, really, season five has some great moments. You won't regret it.

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

BATMARLOWE

Sunday, September 11, 2005 6:07 AM (P)

Not a Dawn-hater myself. As far as why she's there--Joss had his reasons. Meet him halfway. Accept Dawn for now and then decide if he made it work after you've seen the season.

Can you sell your BG S1 to get BUFFY S4 back?

BATMARLOWE

Sunday, September 11, 2005 6:16 AM (P)

Gotta agree with you about Dawn screaming "get out". I know there's a big one in S6 is there one in S5 too?

I can take the first three, but man, that fourth one! Dogs bark, glass shatters, and my ears bleed.

JACQUI

Sunday, September 11, 2005 6:50 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
Gotta agree with you about Dawn screaming "get out". I know there's a big one in S6 is there one in S5 too?

I can take the first three, but man, that fourth one! Dogs bark, glass shatters, and my ears bleed.

Yup. Blood Ties. The first go round.

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

CALLYGAL

Sunday, September 11, 2005 11:44 AM (P)

Okay, as a character Dawn in S5 bugs me no end. (Also in S6, luckily less so in S7). But as a plot device I like her. By the end of the season everything is mighty twisted up and angsty, and Dawn's a big part of that.

However, S5's my favourite season, so that may be a factor in my non-hate of her. Plus Spike's got some great stuff in S5, but I'm a big Spike-fan, and I think you're not, so yeah...

You'll love it anyway. It's Joss!

I'm not nice. I'm just highly susceptible to guilt

FLYINGTAMS

Sunday, September 11, 2005 12:50 PM (P)

Hm.. I wonder if its an age thing, I never disliked Dawn. It always seemed to me people hysterically over react. But perhaps thats because they are young enough to see parts of themselves in her? ;)

Psychologically they tell us that what we don't like in others is what we don't like in our selves.

GROUNDED

Sunday, September 11, 2005 1:32 PM (P)

S5 - prepare yourself for some of the series' worst special effects ;) Add on the fact that there are only a smattering of classic eps and you get a solid if uninspiring season. Worth watching for sure though.

JACQUI

Sunday, September 11, 2005 2:06 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
S5 - prepare yourself for some of the series' worst special effects ;)

Okay, so you're including in this the big snake puppet from S2's "Reptile Boy" and the 'oh look at the barbie falling down the shute' effect from S4's "Doomed"? Aren't you?

'Cause, man, they blew. And I can't remember really bad ones in S5, none that would top those, anyway.

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

GROUNDED

Sunday, September 11, 2005 3:48 PM (P)

You'll notice I wrote 'some of'...

Now go rewatch the double whammy of badness that is Shadow and Listening to Fear.

CHRISISALL

Sunday, September 11, 2005 4:12 PM (P)

Well, I started a season 5 thread like you said I should, and wow, the response is deafening!
Buffy vs. Dracula was nowhere near as bad as I heard.

Chrisisall

JACQUI

Sunday, September 11, 2005 4:42 PM (P)

I *liked* Buffy Vs Dracula.

Seriously, what's not to like?

"I think we've put our finger on why we're the sidekicks."

"No, no Sir, no more chick pit for you!"

"Check, no more Butt Monkey."

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

CHRISISALL

Sunday, September 11, 2005 6:21 PM (P)

Xander was hi-larious, and the final fight was great!

I'm standing RIGHT here Chrisisall

GROUNDED

Sunday, September 11, 2005 6:34 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Jacqui:
I *liked* Buffy Vs Dracula.

Seriously, what's not to like?

How about the fact that it tramples all over the mythology of the show? And for what, the thrill of seeing Buffy vs. Dracula? I'll pass thanks...

CHRISISALL

Sunday, September 11, 2005 7:24 PM (P)

Okay, there was that....

I just expected it to suck (excuse, please) on all levels, and I found it entertaining. Certainly not great, but...

Vapor like Chrisisall

BATMARLOWE

Sunday, September 11, 2005 9:40 PM (P)

Grounded, I'd like to know why you feel that way about B vs. D trampling the show's mythology. Not trying to start anything, just want to hear your P.O.V. But I do have to agree with you about one special effect. When you-know-who creates a you-know-what to seek out you-know what. That one is about the worst in the show's history.

Okay...finally, I get to say this. Here's what I'd like you to do Chris:

Go back to the teaser of "Buffy vs. Dracula". When Dracula says who he is, then we cut to a close-up of Buffy.

And SMG gives one of my all-time favorite single line deliveries when she says "Get out".

But that's not what I'm talking about. After she says "Get out", she starts to smile...

At some point during that smile, freeze-frame the picture.

And just gaze at SMG for several seconds. It's just one guy's opinion, but to me she has never looked more beautiful than in that shot.

CHRISISALL

Monday, September 12, 2005 12:32 AM (P)

Okay, I'll do it. I did notice last night when I saw it, a little Faith rub off on her?
Re: trampling on the mythology...
The Drac turning into bats, wolves, vapor, stuff vamps on the series never could do. I think they tried to explain it as Gypsy tricks or something. It didn't bother me too much, though.

Dracula sucks Chrisisall

BATMARLOWE

Monday, September 12, 2005 12:54 AM (P)

I was cool with that. They made it clear that he was the only vamp who could do that stuff 'cause he's special. Easy for me to buy--we are talking Dracula here.

CHRISISALL

Monday, September 12, 2005 1:08 AM (P)

The guy that played him was good, also. No jokes, except for that hysterical observation of Xander!

Chrisisall

GROUNDED

Monday, September 12, 2005 9:14 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
I was cool with that. They made it clear that he was the only vamp who could do that stuff 'cause he's special. Easy for me to buy--we are talking Dracula here.

Yes, but why is Dracula special? I haven't seen the episode in ages (only have S5 part 2 on vid) but I don't recall any explanation of it. Isn't he also supposed to be ancient, yet he doesn't conform to the semi-animalistic forms the Master and Kakistos started to take. I just didn't think it was worth including him, purely for the sake of including him! There's no need to borrow characters when you're so good at creating them yourself...

Still, the episode did serve up one good, if utterly ridiculous Dracula related line - Spike claiming the dark lord owes him money ;)

BATMARLOWE

Monday, September 12, 2005 6:05 PM (P)

Geez, Grounded, I typed out a long and thoughtful response and my internet service lost it for me. Then I typed it out again, and it lost it for me again. I don't feel like typin' no mo'.

I'll try to make this quick. Why is Dracula special? There is a glibly delivered line that Drac's abilities are "gypsy parlor tricks" or words to that affect. Also, Dru can mesmerize and hypnotize people in a way other vamps can't (like she did to Kendra and Giles). Why is she different? So there's kind of a precedent established for some vamps having abilities that others don't.

Dracula's age: I've never read Stoker's novel, so I don't know what he has to say about it. But, if we assume Dracula is a turned Vlad Dracul, then that makes him about 600 years old. Only 200 years older than Darla. Darla was a vamp (her first time around) for close to 400 years. And she looked damn good for 400. So I think The Master, Tacitos, and the guy from ANGEL S5 are perhaps millenia older than Dracula.

I think Joss used Dracula for symbolic reasons that related to Buffy's personal quest concerning he role as The Slayer, and not just "wouldn't it be cool if Buffy fought Dracula". I think Joss thought that symbolically Dracula was useful because of his "vamp cred" with his audience (even though the character came from outside BUFFY). And I think he thought we would accept him for the same reason.

But that's just my opinion.

And there were some great lines. And SMG never looked better.

But I did have a problem with the vapor thing.

And I didn't get what you meant when you said "S5 part 2". Does that mean you only have the second half of season 5?

GROUNDED

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 8:48 AM (P)

The series intimates a few times that Dru had 'abilities' before she was a vampire, which is why they turned her in the first place.

As for the 'personal quest' thing, what did the episode really accomplish? The awful ending left everything up in the air.

'S5 part 2' does mean I only have the second half. In the UK the VHS sets were split into two boxes of 3 tapes each. Before Buffy S6 was due to air on Sky, BBC2 was only midway through S5, so my brother and I bought the necessary Buffy and Angel tapes to speed things up :) Fool for Love is good, but it's not worth buying the other box for, especially now you can get it on that Spike DVD thingy ;)

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 9:43 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
The awful ending left everything up in the air.

You mean Drac being vapor? Does this constitute a joke?

Maybe Buffy had Willow throw a wind spell on him so the vapor could never come together again to form him, and we just didn't see it?

Yeah, I'm reachin' Chrisisall

GROUNDED

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 9:47 PM (P)

That punning was inadvertent. My sincere apologies ;)

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 9:55 PM (P)

No Place Like Home, and Family were AWSOME!!

Select to view spoiler:

The way Dawn appeared on the show was puzzling to me, but I had faith that the'd pull a good explanation out of the bag, and boy, did they!
Joyce asking "who are you?" as she passed out was great, and Buffy seeing reality both ways with and without Dawn's existence was truly goose-bump worthy.

I'll tell ya, this season has me goin'- at least as much as 4 did.

It's gonna make me sell a lot of comics to buy 6 isn't it...?

Tell me it won't Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 10:11 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by callygal:

However, S5's my favourite season

So far, I'm lovin' it. Care to pitch me a quick countdown of seasons, in order of how much you like them? I've heard very few point to 5 as their favourite ( although I've heard many a fan here claim that it should've ended at 5, and that 6 & 7 are a letdown, and make the pathos of season 5's ending seem sorta hollow and anti-climactic ).

Mr. Pointy's pal Chrisisall

BATMARLOWE

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 10:18 PM (P)

Let's cross the 6 bridge when we get there.

I'm assuming you listened to the commentary on "Restless" (last ep of S4) so you know about those hints Joss dropped in the dream sequence. Sneaky, clever Joss.

Well, if you like S5 this much this early into it then I would think you will really get into the rest of the season.

And you're coming up on "Fool for Love" which is certainly in my top three and may be my single favorite episode of the series, for what that's worth.

Didja do the freeze-frame on Sarah, huh? Didja, didja?

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 10:55 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:

Didja do the freeze-frame on Sarah, huh? Didja, didja?

Yeah.

Twice.

Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 10:58 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:

I'm assuming you listened to the commentary on "Restless" (last ep of S4) so you know about those hints Joss dropped in the dream sequence. Sneaky, clever Joss.

No, I almost never listen to commentaries (unless it's Kurt Russell and John Carpenter, he he he), what did they say?

Non-owner of S4 (at the moment) Chrisisall

CALLYGAL

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 11:04 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

Care to pitch me a quick countdown of seasons, in order of how much you like them? I've heard very few point to 5 as their favourite ( although I've heard many a fan here claim that it should've ended at 5, and that 6 & 7 are a letdown, and make the pathos of season 5's ending seem sorta hollow and anti-climactic ).

Okay, in order: 5, 2, 6, 3, 1, 7, 4

Yes, the series could have ended well at the end of S5, probably better than it ended in 7. But I, few among many, like S6. Now granted I spent that period as a pretty depressed teenager, so I didn't think Buffy was just being whiny. And I love any Buffy/Spike, so I'm kinda biased.

On the other hand I think the continuing after S6 is a grown-up message. Yes, it was a grand gesture at the end of S5, and it was tragic and awful, and a great episode. But I don't think it undercut that to continue afterwards. The message, I guess, is that life goes on. Even when we make the big gestures, eventually we have to get back to the nitty-gritty of just living. So I love Season 5 because its about love, in lots of forms. And I love S6 because its about how being grown up doesn't mean giving your life for someone, but about living for them. I don't think that's contradictory, or stops either season being heartbreaking, no matter whether you know what happens next or not.

...I got a bit ranty there, didn't I? Hmm...Season 5 has shirtless Spike and Season 6 has that PLUS singing...?

I'm not nice. I'm just highly susceptible to guilt

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 11:46 PM (P)

At this point I would say 3, 2, 4, 1.
But 5 looks like it'll take the third spot after 2, maybe even the second after 3....

We'll see Chrisisall

BATMARLOWE

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:04 AM (P)

Wow! I'm surprised you don't listen to the commentaries. They're full of interesting inside info. And Joss in particular is very good at it.

During Buffy's dream sequence in "Restless", she and Faith are making a bed. And Faith says something like "you need to make it ready for her" or something like that. There's also a reference to Little Miss Muffet. When Faith and Buffy leave, they pass by Tara who says something like "hurry back, you don't want to miss dawn"

Early in S5 they go to the Magic Shop and Buffy makes Dawn wait outside. And that "crazy" guy walks up to Dawn and tells her she doesn't belong and stuff like that. He also makes some Little Miss Muffet reference. Never would have realized that was a reference back to "Restless" if I hadn't listened to David Fury's commentary.

So does Sarah look gorgeous in that shot or what?

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:17 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:

So does Sarah look gorgeous in that shot or what?

Almost as good as Faith does dancing in that club in Angel S1, as she's takin' the place apart!!!

You are obsessed, my friend, and I understand it Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:24 AM (P)

P.S. just watching Fool For Love; James Marsters is an actor's actor. He's brilliant!

Spike still bugs me, but only 'cause he's so good at being bad Chrisisall

RETRO

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:49 AM (P)

I freely admit I haven't seen all of what there is to see. But here is my listing.

1,3,2,6,4,7,5

The first three seasons are why I fell in love with Buffy. I don't know why, but I feel like (with some very notable exceptions,) the show lost some of it's magic when the crew left High School. I rank 1, 3, 2. I loved, loved, loved season one as an introduction on our Scoobies. I loved season three as it gave us the Mayor, and Faith. The power and the dark Slayer. I also loved the combination of Angelus, Spike, and Dru for season 2, but the agnsty teen drama drops it below season three.
I freely admit that after that my knowledge becomes a bit more fuzzy. 6 has "Once More With Feeling," and also what my roomate calls "The Dark Phoenix Saga," which I think is my all-time favorite ending to a season. 4, to me, is a weak season. I'm not a fan of the Initiative, Adam, and especially not of Reilly. But this season gives us 'Something Blue,' as well as 'Hush' and I believe 'The Replacement.' 7 has Nathan in it, and I rank it there not just as a love of the actor, but for a love of the character of Caleb. I originally had 7 above 4, but I switched them.
Season 5, I just don't really get. And perhaps I have not given it an honest enough chance, but in my current list, it ranks bottom.

"Just because I choose to wander, it doesn't mean that I am lost..."

BATMARLOWE

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 6:09 AM (P)

It's two different types of feminine pulchritude, that shot of Buffy is beautiful, that scene with Faith is sexy. Isn't diversity nice?

Anyway, James really shows his stuff in FfL and there's so much going on in this one you almost feel like you've watched a two hour episode (in a good way). I just love it. I don't think there's a second of it doesn't work.

Btw, it has a counterpart in ANGEL S2, so you'll have that to look forward to. They aired back-to-back when they were originally broadcast.

GROUNDED

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:20 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
No Place Like Home, and Family were AWSOME!!

I can barely remember what No Place Like Home was about, but Family was awful. Possibly my least favourite Joss-written ep pre seasons 6 and 7.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 7:27 PM (P)

No Place Like Home told where Dawn came from, and was great. Family was a nice embrace for Willow's girlfriend, and sorta touching, if a little bit flat. But again, Spike was great in that too, even IF he bugs me.
Fool for Love was an all-time high in the series for me, not a bad or wasted moment!
Riley was pretty stupid in Shadow, the first time his character let me down. I can see that they're writing him out. Too bad, I liked him.

Five words Chrisisall

BATMARLOWE

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 7:37 PM (P)

Yeah, I liked Reilly too. But I thought they had mishandled his character so much in S5 that I was glad he was written out. As a character he was just getting in the way. But that's the only thing I don't like about S5.

GROUNDED

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:41 PM (P)

Hmm. There's plenty more to dislike about S5 but I don't want to spoil Chrisisall ;)

MIKEYMO

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:42 PM (P)

Fool For Love may be my all-time favorite Buffy episode. "Here endeth the lesson."

I never cared for Captain Cardboard, myself. But Tara is great.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

MIKEYMO

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:43 PM (P)

Oops. Double post.

TERAPH

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 9:52 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
During Buffy's dream sequence in "Restless", she and Faith are making a bed. And Faith says something like "you need to make it ready for her" or something like that. There's also a reference to Little Miss Muffet. When Faith and Buffy leave, they pass by Tara who says something like "hurry back, you don't want to miss dawn"

Close.

In the dream in "Graduation Day, Part 2" (Ep. 3.22), Faith says "Miles to go, Little Miss Muffet counting down from 7-3-0"*. [1]

In "This Year's Girl" (Ep. 4.15) Buffy and Faith make the bed in Faith's nightmare. [2]

Then, in "Restless" (Ep. 4.22), Buffy wakes on the bed in her dream, she says to Tara that "Faith and I just made that". Then she sees the clock, which says 7:30, and notes that it's late, but Tara says the clock is wrong. When Buffy leaves the room, Tara says "be back before dawn". [2][3]

(*I've seen many theories regarding the 730 reference. The one I've seen most often is that 730 is 365 times 2, meaning it is two years until the end of season 5 and "The Gift" - which is also the 100th episode of the series.)

1. http://www.buffyguide.com/episodes/gd2.shtml#references
2. http://www.buffyguide.com/episodes/restless.shtml#continuity
3. http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/story.cgi?show=12&story=264&page=
9&sort=&limit=all

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 10:16 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
Hmm. There's plenty more to dislike about S5 but I don't want to spoil Chrisisall ;)

At this point there's a lot I don't know, aside from the REAL biggies (J and B exit, stage left), so thanks.

Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 10:17 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by teraph:

(*I've seen many theories regarding the 730 reference. The one I've seen most often is that 730 is 365 times 2, meaning it is two years until the end of season 5 and "The Gift" - which is also the 100th episode of the series.)

Does all this mean S5 was supposed to be the end?

Chrisisall

TERAPH

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 10:34 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by teraph:

(*I've seen many theories regarding the 730 reference. The one I've seen most often is that 730 is 365 times 2, meaning it is two years until the end of season 5 and "The Gift" - which is also the 100th episode of the series.)
Does all this mean S5 was supposed to be the end?

Chrisisall

The end? Maybe not back when the hints were dropped in third season, but I bet Joss was planning something big for the episode that was both the end of a season and the show's 100th episode -- which is a major milestone but almost never coincides with the last episode of the season.

By the time they got to writing and filming "The Gift" they had been cancelled, so it *was* the end for the show (until it was picked up by UPN). I don't know if the same thing would have happened if the show had been renewed prior to "The Gift".

I haven't heard the commentary tracks on seasons 5-7 yet, so I don't know if anyone on those reveals alternate plans that got changed, but I suspect Joss had something in mind...

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 11:01 PM (P)

You see, I'm from the future, where impending cancellation is never looming over an artists work. We've evolved beyond that.

Oops! My time machine's leaving, gotta blaze Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:15 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
But I thought they had mishandled his character so much in S5 that I was glad he was written out.

He was sabotaged!

Lettin' a vamp bite him, Hmmph! Bite me! Chrisisall

BATMARLOWE

Thursday, September 15, 2005 1:47 AM (P)

Yep, they sure did. I was watching S5 not that long ago and I realized that Riley's vamp "visitations" was probably meant to be a metaphor for Riley screwing around on Buffy. I guess I'm a bit slow on the uptake (unless I'm wrong about the metaphor thing). But I still didn't buy his motivation for engaging in that specific activity. Nor would I buy it if Riley had really screwed around on Buffy.

When Riley tells Xander she doesn't love him, it's heartbreaking but true. So how do they (meaning the writers) deal with it?...I have more to say about this but can't until you've seen "Into the Woods".

About the 730 thing. It makes sense if they were counting down to the end of season 5. But why would they do that? Seems like they would want to countdown to Dawn's arrival.

I think Joss knew by the time they were shooting the season finale to 5 that they were going to be picked up by UPN.

STAKETHELURK

Thursday, September 15, 2005 1:50 AM (P)

Quote:
Does all this mean S5 was supposed to be the end?

This has been answered already, but I’d like to elaborate.

In the commentaries & extras, Whedon says that he initially toyed with the idea of ending the show in its fifth season, but long before he got there changed his mind (however, a popular myth still exists that Joss was “forced” into making the last two seasons and that “The Gift” is the *true* series finale). And they weren’t technically canceled; a financial dispute arose between the WB and 20th Century Fox. Every time the show was renewed for another season, 20th asked for a budget increase (I assume it's standard practice). When they were negotiating for the sixth season, the WB refused to go any further. A huge argument raged between the two, with Joss caught in the middle (it actually went on during the 100th Ep party). The future of the show was endangered--but not officially killed--even as they filmed “The Gift.” Then UPN swept in, offered 20th a substantially better deal (and perhaps more creative freedom for Joss, I’m a bit fuzzy on that), and enticed the show away from the WB. So the WB’s stupidity was the root of the cause, but they never quite went so far as to cancel the show (they just didn’t want to fund it).

“The Gift” is a very important episode and could’ve ended the series, but I feel that the message it sends is just a bit off from the show’s core message and that “Chosen” is the much better series finale. You’ll have to decide for yourself when (if?) you get there.

Btw, I really recommend you watch Joss’ commentaries. They're always fun and enlightening, though some are better than others. There are a number of good ones on the Fourth Season--which you don’t presently have. But the commentary for “Innocence” is really good, as is the one for “Welcome to the Hellmouth”/”The Harvest,” and the two on Season Five, for “The Body” and “The Gift” are truly great. The one for “The Body” really explains the episode in a way that answered some questions and problems I had with it. So, in summary--commentaries good.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, September 15, 2005 1:58 AM (P)

Much obliged by the detailed response. I feel I am now somewhat up to speed on the whole question of the direction Joss was taking ( and I'd better ready a whole lot of my comics for liquification, I've been hooked this far...)

Bloody well in deep Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Thursday, September 15, 2005 2:00 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:

When Riley tells Xander she doesn't love him, it's heartbreaking but true.

Yeah, that rang true. Riley was emotionally making a small break w/Buffy as of that moment.

Chrisisall*snif*

CHRISISALL

Thursday, September 15, 2005 9:36 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
I have more to say about this but can't until you've seen "Into the Woods".

All right, I saw it. And I have to say, for a character to be written out because he's served his purpose as the rebound guy, they did it rather well. It went a lot smoother than I imagined. It made me teary, even.

Buffy's is a tale of woe, and she has no room in her world for normalcy.

Know what? I'm gonna have to stop saying 'Spike bugs me'.

Chrisisall

GROUNDED

Thursday, September 15, 2005 10:21 PM (P)

You really thought it was good?

BATMARLOWE

Thursday, September 15, 2005 10:45 PM (P)

Just rewatched the scene to make sure I was remembering it correctly. I realize when couples have a big fight they quite often dance around the real point. So Buffy's mad at Riley for running around behind her back and getting bitten, which Riley apologizes for about 19 times.

Riley never tells Buffy the real reason for all this, and isn't Dracula, or Angel or wanting to feel what Buffy felt, blah, blah, blah...I mean all that relates to why Riley thinks Buffy finds him inadequate that inadequacy is why Buffy isn't really in love with him but Riley never says that crap is just symptomactic of the truth which is Buffy does not love him.

Now when Riley does finally get around to saying that the vamps made him feel needed, she's starting to get the hint that Riley feels she doesn't make him feel needed.

And then she says "Well, who's fault is that?"
And she goes on about how "this is it, this is me, this is package, and if it's not good enough, we have a problem."

So when Buffy says "Well who's fault is that?" Riley doesn't say: "It's your fault!" And he lets Buffy go on and Riley never corrects Buffy that it isn't that she's the Slayer and all the baggage that brings, it that's he wants to know if she is love with him. And he never confronts her with that. Instead of responding to what Buffy does say, he says "I'm leaving tonight" and that takes us down another road.

I just found it very frustrating that Riley never said "Are you in love with me or not?" And see Buffy deal with that with Riley standing right there in front of her.

So I guess after her talk with Xander, Buffy realizes she IS in love with Riley (so I guess that means he's not the rebound guy) and then she runs to stop the helicopter, and so on.

So that's all I was gonna say about that.

But wasn't it cool when Buffy dusted all those Riley-sucking vamps? Especially that three-fer?

CHRISISALL

Thursday, September 15, 2005 11:03 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
You really thought it was good?

Not that it was good, but for what it was (an excuse to lose a character) it wasn't too bad. The writing was good given the lousy job they were given to accomplish. And I got sucked into it douche that I am.

Here, pull my heart-string Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Thursday, September 15, 2005 11:09 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:

So I guess after her talk with Xander, Buffy realizes she IS in love with Riley (so I guess that means he's not the rebound guy) and then she runs to stop the helicopter, and so on.

That was the writers having it both ways with us; she doesn't love him/ he goes/ wait, she DOES! *cue the tears*

Like I said, we, the audience, were played. And many of us even kind of liked it.

And that fight was great, it lived up to what I expected in the first few seconds.

Chrisisall

STAKETHELURK

Friday, September 16, 2005 12:44 AM (P)

Quote:
Know what? I'm gonna have to stop saying 'Spike bugs me'.

Yes, give in to the Dark Side! There is no other way.

P.S.: That race to the helicopter is heartwrenching, and I was one of those who didn't even like Riley.

MIKEYMO

Friday, September 16, 2005 12:44 AM (P)

God, so much good stuff since last I checked into this thread! I had never heard of the 7-3-0 theory, but I absolutely love it and believe that that is the sort of thing that Joss might do. I've always wished (just a little bit) that the series had ended with season 5.

Whoever recapped the episode, thanks for the recap and the astute observations as to what was acutally being said. Now I want to see this again - I always prefer it when people argue around the problem, although I guess it can get frustrating... And, as I check, I see that it was written by Marti Noxon, which begs the question of how she lost the capacity for nuance in less than a year.

I can't exactly remember what Xander said to Anya at the end of that episode, but I do remember loving it.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

YOSAFFBRIDGE

Friday, September 16, 2005 3:34 AM (P)

Several things I just have to get out

1) i like the 730 theory
2) Buffy SOOOO did not ever REALLY and TRULY love Reilly - at least, not after he lost his crazy steroid-induced powers. Maybe Reilly was flirting with becoming a vampire so he could live up to Buffy's expectations...? Feel free to shoot me down.
3) Seasons in order of their fantasticness:
6,2,3,1,4,7,5
4) One of the best Dawn moments ever is when Willow is evil and Dawn goes to find her and Willow does a frustratingly accurate whining impression of Dawn. I kinda wish Willow had just taken her out right there. Anybody on board with that?

Curse your suddent but inevitable betrayal!

MIKEYMO

Friday, September 16, 2005 3:42 AM (P)

Yosaffbridge::

2) Word. I don't think Reilly ever really challanged her.
3) My hatred of the Crackwhore Willow storyline prevents me from placing 6 any higher than 5th. Still, I can see where the love comes from.
4) True that.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

GROUNDED

Friday, September 16, 2005 9:36 AM (P)

Remember this is an ongoing S5 discussion, so plot points beyond S5 are spoilers for certain people...

Back to the point:

"So I guess after her talk with Xander, Buffy realizes she IS in love with Riley (so I guess that means he's not the rebound guy) and then she runs to stop the helicopter, and so on."

I thought the helicopter-running was a bit dumb. It's fairly clear that Buffy isn't in love with Riley, so why would she suddenly change her mind? It seems like a bit of a cop-out to have Riley get away before they can actually deal with the reality of the situation: even if Buffy had caught up to him, nothing has changed. And from a plotting perspective, if Xander had only spoken a little bit faster she'd have easily caught the helicopter...

JACQUI

Friday, September 16, 2005 10:07 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
Yep, they sure did. I was watching S5 not that long ago and I realized that Riley's vamp "visitations" was probably meant to be a metaphor for Riley screwing around on Buffy. I guess I'm a bit slow on the uptake (unless I'm wrong about the metaphor thing). But I still didn't buy his motivation for engaging in that specific activity. Nor would I buy it if Riley had really screwed around on Buffy.

The show always tied sex and vampirism together, but I feel that Riley's break down and the eventual break up of him and Buffy was a little more detailed than that and a long time coming. Riley was groundless from the moment he was forced to face the truth about the Initiative, he never found a purpose after that.

And he resented being called "destiny's girlfriend", it hurt him that Buffy had a purpose and he didn't. Their relationship was never one built on pure honesty and openness to begin with. From the very start they lied to each other, Buffy often held back from him to pander to his need to feel bigger and stronger and, later, she was never able to open to him when she needed it.

I haven't watched Buffy for too long, but my original thoughts on the matter are thusly...

A New Man:
Riley has to face the fact that Buffy is a Slayer. She is strong, stronger than he is. He's stuck in the old fashioned ideal that men folk protect the women folk. He's a soldier, he should be stronger. His own frustration at this drives Buffy into a subterfuge of her own, hiding the full extent of her strength.

Goodbye Iowa:
*Riley has to deal with a lot of things. His whole world is crumbling, everything he thought he was fighting for, everything he lived for. His whole basis of self esteem was built around the fact that he thought he was doing good, that he had a higher purpose. The truth hits him hard and he's in danger of free floating without a foundation. Added to this is the pressure of withdrawal, a vicious detox that is affecting him both mentally and physically, and a deep and valid grief for Maggie Walsh. He did not know her as evil and as such, feels the need to grieve, yet his brain is telling him that he has no right because she was, ultimately, working for the bad side. At the end of the episode, Riley is near his tether, ready to explode and he cannot take any further slight to Maggie, he certainly does not want to listen to Adam, who might have told him some valuable information. He's confused, angry, frustrated and he doesn't know who to trust. By the end of the episode, however, after having been injured and forced to reflect, he is left with one true image: Buffy.

Superstar:
Buffy and Riley are still feeling the after effects of Faith's visit. Buffy feels betrayed and just a little bit insecure about Riley and the way he will see her now. She can't relax and she can't let go of her insecurities. Riley is frustrated, he's apologized for what has happened and there's not much more he can do. Neither is talking to the other, which just compounds the problem. It's only until Jonathon gives them both some good advice, namely: talk to each other; and things worth while take a little time and effort. Once they take this advice, talk to each other and realize why the other is feeling the way they do, then they can move past the stasis that their relationship has been in.

The Yoko Factor:
Riley is running a little close to the edge. He's been forced to abandon the very thing he devoted his life to, after finding out that it was a little less than noble. Completely groundless in this aspect, Riley must then deal with the truth about Buffy's romantic history, another thing that shakes his already weakened 'humans good, demons bad' beliefs. All of his friends are dying left and right. He's at a point where he barely knows which way is up, when Xander lets slip with further truth about Buffy and Angel's past. When Angel turns up in Sunnydale, Riley is more than ready to assume he's evil and to fight him. An act which cements his

BATMARLOWE

Friday, September 16, 2005 5:27 PM (P)

Great analysis! And if you're doing that all from memory it's all the more remarkable. You've even convinced me that Riley had more motivation to go to the vamps than I originally had thought, although still not 100% sold on it, but I can see it more. Maybe if Riley had explained it as well as you have in "Into the Woods" I would have been more accepting.

But still it's frustrating to watch that scene in "Into the Woods" without seeing Riley put it point blank to Buffy "Are you in love with me"? I know Buffy wasn't feeling the love for Riley right at that moment. So her answer would have undoubtedly been "I don't know".

Early in the season, when Riley confides to Xander that Buffy doesn't love him (and I kept an ear out as I was watching Seasons 4 and 5 and I don't think Buffy ever says those three little words, whereas I think Riley does--but I could be wrong), regardless of what happened between that scene and "Into the Woods" I felt we were being set up for a bigger payoff where Riley would eventually get around to telling Buffy what he told Xander. And as I said before, that never happened. As much as Riley and Buffy had it out in that scene they didn't have it out enough.

And also I thought the "Run to stop Riley scene" was just too melodramatic. And when Xander said "Run", I was halfway expecting him to say "Run Buffy! Run like the wind"! Before that I thought the Xander/Buffy scene was actually pretty good as a scene. It was the scene that before that where I had my misgivings.

Buffy did take Riley for granted. Why was it up to Xander to tell her that instead of Riley? Other than writer's convenience, I mean?

But through it all, Sarah looked great! I swear, Season 5 is her absolute best when it comes to that. Trivial I know, but I keep noticing that when I watch that sequence when she dusts the vamps and she and Xander have their "chat".

CHRISISALL

Saturday, September 17, 2005 4:56 PM (P)

Jacqui, you are awsome.
You not only know your stuff, but you're one hell of a good writer!

Sometimes illiterate Chrisisall

JACQUI

Saturday, September 17, 2005 7:25 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Jacqui, you are awesome.
You not only know your stuff, but you're one hell of a good writer!

Stop... you're going to make me blush... but, then again... eyes? Go on... eyes...?

That's what I had for the Haven guides. I've done every episode of Angel and most of Buffy, and now the first three Firefly.

That's what I love about the Joss world, though, there's so many layers. You can just watch it, or you can delve deep into everything.

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

CHRISISALL

Sunday, September 18, 2005 1:27 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
And from a plotting perspective, if Xander had only spoken a little bit faster she'd have easily caught the helicopter...

One thing that kept me from REALLY getting into it. I kinda just said a silent 'see ya' in my head.
Can you say, 'manipulated'?

Puppet Chrisisall

GROUNDED

Sunday, September 18, 2005 11:05 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
And from a plotting perspective, if Xander had only spoken a little bit faster she'd have easily caught the helicopter...
One thing that kept me from REALLY getting into it. I kinda just said a silent 'see ya' in my head.
Can you say, 'manipulated'?

Puppet Chrisisall

It's one of those moments that makes you want to kick the TV in. Of course that only works if your TV has survived Buffy vs. Dracula... ;)

CHRISISALL

Sunday, September 18, 2005 11:29 PM (P)

I don't think I'm clear on this...you do or you don't like Buffy Vs. Dracula.....?

Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Sunday, September 18, 2005 11:31 PM (P)

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

I am a worm Chrisisall

BATMARLOWE

Monday, September 19, 2005 4:42 AM (P)

Given the way the season and the scene with Buffy and Riley transpired, there's no reason to think that Buffy is in love with Riley.

But I think what Marti was writing was that Buffy realizes she IS in love with Riley and that's why she runs for the 'copter.

So it's weak writing any way you look at it.

If Buffy isn't in love with Riley then A)why would she run for the 'copter in the first place and B) Like you said what has changed even if she does catch up to Riley?

If Buffy really was in love with Riley and her talk with Xander is what crystalizes that for her(and again, I think that's what Marti was going for), it gives her reason to run for the 'copter but it's too melodramatic and more importantly it's too little too late. We as an audience haven't been sold that Buffy was in love with Riley.

If Buffy wasn't in love with Riley and then changes her mind and decides she was in love with Riley...well that's just stupid.

They copped out alright. They copped out in the Buffy/Riley scene and IMHO they copped out on that storyline once they established it. All more the shame because I thought it could have been effective and genuinely heartbreaking when Buffy and Riley went their separate ways.