Major Spoiler and I'm calling Joss out
POSTED BY: fireflygal
UPDATED: Friday, October 14, 2005 18:37
VIEWED: 62703
PAGE 2 of 3
Quote:
Originally posted by nakedandarticulate:
he start-----If you read my first post I was civil.The main point was I was just asking a question.If you read my profile, you know that I love this universe.The anger posts,were immature but I mean seriously how can you take my anger serious when my screen name is NAKEDANDARTICULATE. (insert laugh track here) Bottom line, I just want this film to do well, not just for Joss, or for sequels, or for the actors, or even for the other universe he created-buffster. I want it to do well,because everyone here is a FAN of this universe.It touched something within all of us.It may hurt(I cried at the funeral scene,and when Tara died and when Wes died,and especially when Anya didn't understand death) but it also brought us joy and passion ,wonder and above all hope.So that is all, sorry
"It's about how much freedom you can take away from somebody before they either fold or fight," Whedon says. "It's about the right to be wrong and the nature of human beings, that they need the freedom to be wrong. That they cannot be made to be better or perfect."--Joss Whedon on Serenity
As mom's always say "I don't care who started it"
It would be shiny if we can all be nice from here on out. FlyingTams have agreed, to be peaceable, so I think we all can put our Vera's away and play nice together, cause we are Browncoats together! We all want sequels, we all want our BDH's to be a success. We all just didn't like certain things about the moview but that's ok.I aim to misbehave!
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Again,I was kidding with the first part.
"It's about how much freedom you can take away from somebody before they either fold or fight," Whedon says. "It's about the right to be wrong and the nature of human beings, that they need the freedom to be wrong. That they cannot be made to be better or perfect."--Joss Whedon on Serenity
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Quote:
Originally posted by nakedandarticulate:
Again,I was kidding with the first part.
Me too, I just couldn't stop myself...
I aim to misbehave!
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Some love/hate thing you have going for Joss there.
Yeah, guess that's what you'd call it. Can't stand Those Other Shows; the fact he did 'em in my mind is reason to be suspicious of Firefly. Still hard for me to believe it's the same guy. Either it's a blind squirrel finally finding a nut, or I Just Never Got his other stuff. Just as likely the latter, but it doesn't matter: if I don't like it, that settles it.
---------------------------
I didn't do it.
You can't prove it.
The sheep are lying.
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This is sort of a re-post and mix of posts of mine from the "Joss you took the sky from me" post on the Browncoat board over at 'versal.
I'm not all up to date on this thread. I'm not going to read every single message. I'm too damn lazy for that.
I can see why people would be pissed about Book and Wash. I knew Book wouldn't make it out of the movie when I read an interview with Ron Glass who claimed he was just getting too old to do this anymore. Wash? Alan Tudyk is a hot commodity after Dodgeball and I, Robot, so after the fact I wasn't too surprised there either.
I was upset when they killed off Book, not cos he was dead, but because I wouldn't get the rest of his story. I don't know what he whispered to Mal, and I desperately want to know. I understand that his death served as Mal's catalyst to do what had to be done. This is important for the story. Book turns a switch in Mal and without him who knows how things would have ended.
Wash. Let me sidetrack here, I love Joss Whedon's shows because of one simple fact: just as in real life, no one is ever really safe. No one is safe. Buffy died 3 times, Joss killed off Tara and Fred, 2 of his most beloved female characters. Why? because it lead to character development. People need catalysts in their lives. These things are usually big like death. Wash's death was not in vain. Zoe's reaction to it? What did anyone expect? She's a soldier, there will be time for mourning when the fighting is done. I hope there is a sequel cos I know Joss has Zoe's breakdown planned, this was what she needed to lose her faith and find her path. Think about the possibilities for Zoe's character to grow, what if she's pregnant? What if she goes AWOL? What if she just can't handle it? Wash is one of my favorite characters, but I understand Joss' motivation. Part of which was killing Wash to give Zoe emotional development and to make her character more than just this stoic warrior.
Life is fragile, it is so fragile it can disappear in an instant. I know there aren't a lot of Buffy or Angel fans on this thread (that I could gather) but in the final episode of Buffy Joss kills off Anya.. Anya was one of my favorite characters. Her death? Happened in the blink of an eye, I have friends who missed it 2 or even 3 times when watching the finale. There was no fan fare, no slow motion, just a slice and fall and that was it. She was dead. It happened so quick. People threw a fit afterwards saying that she deserved more than that. Why? Because she was a character that you were invested in? Because you want everything to work out and for everyone to have a happy ending? If there is one thing Joss believes in, there are few happy endings, and people's lives rarely are perfect.
Lets look at Buffy & Angel: Characters that died or left: Jenny Calendar (dead) Anya (left & deceased), Tara (dead), Jesse (dead), Oz (permanent leaving), Buffy (at one point left & was dead 3 times), Willow (at one point left) Giles (at one point went back to England), Mrs. Summers (dead), Faith (coma, then left, prison), Angel (sent to hell, then left for own show), Cordelia (left for LA, coma), Wesley (left Buffy, left Angel), Fred (turned into Illyria/dead), Darla (dead, killed by Angel, then staked herself), Spike (dead, exploded), Lindsey (left, dead), Jonathon (dead), Warren (dead), Doyle (dead), Drusilla (left)
That is 21 characters that disappeared from the Buffyverse over 12 seasons (both shows together). That is more than one character per year. Lots of characters die or leave and shows go on.
Now which ones came back (either from the dead or from sabattical, flashbacks, dreams, ect...): Buffy, Giles, Willow, Anya, Oz, Faith, Angel, Cordelia, Wesley, Darla (came back 2 different times after death), Spike, Jonathon, Warren, Drusilla, Jenny Calendar
15 Characters that returned. While in Joss's world you may be dead, you are never done and gone.
**Also I thought I should mention, I recently saw an interview with Joss on Australian TV (I think) and he mentioned that should there be a seque
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Quote:I'd say it's probably likely. It's also probably likely that he may change his mind on one or two of them. This is Joss we're talking about. Just when you think you know what he's doing, he flips it all over on you.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I heard 1 Browncoat say that Joss has the idea for all of them to die, before it's all over. Except maybe River. Who knows?
Quote:We tried in Minneapolis to get him to tell us who Book was and he refused. One way or the other - barring resurrection, of course - we'll find out who he was and what he was up to. Ron Glass mentioned that he and Joss talked about flashback sequences and the like.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I'll say this. For the story to work, it makes sense that Book died the way he did. Could it have been done differently ? Hell yes! But I have a feeling this death was a mutual idea. Or I DID think that, before I heard the Ron Glass interview on the Serenity podcast. Now, I don't know.
Quote:Believe it or not, according to the movie magazine, it was Alan Tudyk's idea. He even approves of how it went down because it adds more realism to the character. It also alludes to the idea that there aren't always happy endings in this version of the 'verse, plus it will give Zoe that much more character development down the road.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
As for Wash? It seemed as senseless as it was sudden. I had the oppotunity to watch that scene twice, and I still don't see why it had to happen that way. That it HAD to happen, might be less of a story/plot issue and more of a Alan Tudyk / Hollywood actor issue. Contracts and future working availabilty might have forced Joss to do somethin drastic. Again, I have no clue, just my $ 0.02 worth.
Always trust the Joss. That's all I can say.
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Double post!
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Right on BlackEyedGirl! Took the words right out of my mouth. Honestly I excepted somebody to die, and let’s face it, if you’re a serious Joss fan; everybody knows that just when you think things are safe, when the happy ending is coming, Joss robs you of that. It so that you do exactly what your doing now.
A writer writes to make people feel emotions, that’s why we love this show, is because the emotions Joss fills us with. We cry at the end of "The Message," Early gives us the creeps, and as we watch Serenity be torn to pieces, we cringe and only exhale when it stops. I almost cried at Wash and Book's deaths (I DON'T CRY, the only movie that can make me weepy is Big Fish at the very end), I loved them both, but their deaths mean so much more. Mal is a different person now, River is the pilot (who knew she could fly), SIMON AND KAYLEE FINALY GOT TOGETHER (which I've been waiting for since the show got started), Inara is back (and I saw the making of the love story between her and Mal getting started).
The happy ending is there folks, Joss gave us what we wanted, and we said we'd follow him and trust our BDM in his hands. Well it's still in his hands, so let’s go be Box Office maniacs and get two more movies so we can see the rest of this crazy vision of the future.
KAYLEE: So how come you don't care where you're going?
BOOK: 'Cause how you get there is the worthier part.
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The thing that bothers me about this thread, ffg, is your continued insistence on an explanation, when several have already been provided. If they aren't sufficient, I'm sorry, but the reasons it happened are all here.
And, BlackEyedGirl, you said it *perfectly*.
Serenity is better than I even thought it could be. I have no complaints at all. I'm sorry for those who feel differently, but for me...man. It didn't just make me "feel sad", or be depressed, it made me feel every punch, every explosion, every bounce of Serenity as she crashed, every gunshot, every slice or stab, as if it were happening to me. I wasn't watching the movie, I was inside it. I've never in my life experienced ANY form of entertainment that engrossing and affecting. The lack of a happy ending is a small price to pay indeed.
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Question: You don't need help. Im surprised noone has brought this up unless I've missed talk on the boards, but why Wash? As a character, you know, why-why Wash? I mean, I just shrunk back into my seat and asked "Why?!" I mean --
JOSS: - I think you just answered your own question. Not for shock value, but for emotional value. What it would do to you emotionally. And for River and Mal, who are basically the crux of the film, still to be able to, you know call this a happy ending, there was no way I could just let people walk away. It wouldn't be right for the movie and quite frankly-- its me guys. But Wash is not only someone everybody loves, but he is somebody you wouldn't think of as a fighter, youre not looking for him to go. So when he does, it means at that point, everybody is on the table. And thats what makes it exciting
http://www.serenitymovie.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=766
Freedom - Peace - Serenity
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn:
The thing that bothers me about this thread, ffg, is your continued insistence on an explanation, when several have already been provided. If they aren't sufficient, I'm sorry, but the reasons it happened are all here.
Actually Thrawn I keep repeating my self for the new people that post and don't feel like catching up on everything. So I repeat my original statement basically so they know where I was coming from. By the way, I have a partial answer. I have many other questions that surround the why that have not been answered. I didn't mean my question to sound so simple as to just "why". There are several "why" tangents I would like to examine but it was easier just to say "why" in the threads
So now you understand I don't have my whole answer and perhaps you won't mind if I continue to ask "why". Perhaps I can change it to "why + tangents" for you. Yeah, I'm a sarcastic Browncoat sometimes.I aim to misbehave!
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Hi, new here. Well, on the board, but a long time, Buffy/Angel/Firefly fan. So, obviously, I am a Joss Whedon follower. Anyways... I was looking through buffy.nu and I came through this...
Questioner:: There’s been alot of speculation as to the reasons for Alan’s ’lack of sequel opportunity’ shall we say? Are you able to confirm or deny or speculate?
JOSS: I can do all of those things. I have always... *hated* Alan. He’s just not funny. Im looking for funny and he’s just not there for me. No, he is... the character if Wash - as some of you may have noticed - a corpse, but that is not because he is not going to be in the sequel. In fact, if there were a sequel I can say, without hesitation that he infact would be in it. And not in a cheesy twin brother way. I can’t stress that enough.
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Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn:
The thing that bothers me about this thread, ffg, is your continued insistence on an explanation, when several have already been provided. If they aren't sufficient, I'm sorry, but the reasons it happened are all here.
Actually Thrawn I keep repeating my self for the new people that post and don't feel like catching up on everything. So I repeat my original statement basically so they know where I was coming from. By the way, I have a partial answer. I have many other questions that surround the why that have not been answered. I didn't mean my question to sound so simple as to just "why". There are several "why" tangents I would like to examine but it was easier just to say "why" in the threads
I aim to misbehave!
For future reference, ffg, I think the problem is that this whole thread comes off as a game of "Whack-a-mole", which, frankly, gets really old.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.
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I'm terribly disappointed with Serenity. I looked forward to it since I first heard it was coming out, but I stumbled upon the spoiler that two main characters were going to die, and out of curiosity I just had to find out who, and I did. Now I'm not going to see the movie in the theater. This was a mistake. As far as I'm concerned Firefly died when the series was canceled. People have said that we owe Joss. Nope, not true at all. He owes us. Fans were the ones who kept it going for the time it did and who caused a movie to happen, sure Joss wrote the story, etc., but that wouldn't have happened if fans hadn't shown support and now to kill characters. Oh heck no. Some have said it adds to realism. I don't agree - um - the Earth is gone, they live on a space ship, not so real right? No. You DON'T need to kill off a character. That's cliche is series and movies now. Who doesn't do it? If I wanted realism I'd step out the door. I hope that there are no more movies after this one. What'd be the point. I don't support that, or this movie. It's not Firefly. Remember Firefly. Yeah - there were shootings and close calls, but it was fun and our people got away in the end. All in all I think Joss was wrong. And he needs to realize that. If people support this then it's only going to make Hollywood think that y'know it's alright to kill off the good guys. I wouldn't accept this movie. You're just saying that well, okay, you didn't do it right, but I'll take it. I'm not going to. Unless they do it right (which I know won't happen) Firefly died for me when it was cancelled.
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I'd like to agree with FireflyGirl, Stroess, Wibbled, PizmoBeach, FlyingTams and CommanderAdama on this one (even if that puts me in the minority--heaven knows I'm used to it by now). I got spoiled by accident, and knowing that Wash is going to die just about broke my heart. In fact, I'm highly tempted to skip the movie now (but I won't.)
It's true that killing off characters does up the excitement level of a film. It's true that in such a dangerous and deadly situation, it may be ridiculous to expect everyone to survive. It's true that Joss tends to disrupt happy relationships, and almost no-one is safe on his shows. It's all true, and I guess I'm glad to see so many people are pleased by his work.
All these truisms just don't work for me, though. 
How many times in all the episodes of Firefly did crew members get shot, stabbed, sliced, beaten mercilessly, electroshocked, asphyxiated, put into chemically-induced comas, punched, and generally mistreated-- and survive? So, it's not so unusual that some of us thought the people we've come to know and love would all make it.
I also don't buy the notion that the only way to truly grab an audience is to kill someone. Firefly grabbed us all without killing main characters. Even though I kinda knew Mal would live through "Out Of Gas," I was still riveted to the screen, wondering what would happen next, and how he'd get out of it. Sure, death raises the stakes; but I feel Joss and Crew are so incredibly talented writers, they could have made the plot exciting in other, non-lethal ways.
And yes, Joss has a history of killing off some very beloved characters. I'm a devotee of both Buffy and Angel, so I'm quite familiar with the list. But... if I'm going to lose a character who's become dear to my heart, I'd like it at least to be something meaningful. Tara died, but it was for a purpose-- to move the story along so Willow would become the Big Bad. Anya died fighting to protect others and destroy evil. So did Doyle, Cordy, Wesley and Gunn-- all of them died making a difference. Maybe that's why I'm not so upset about Book's passing-- he went out fighting. But for Wash to die out of sheer bad luck strikes me as empty, meaningless, and unfulfilling. It's something lesser script-writers have used so much it's become a cliche-- something to jerk the audience around. I really did expect better than such manipulation from Joss and Serenity.
And yes, death is realistic. But don't we watch TV and movies to get away from reality for a while? We've all known pain, suffering and loss in the Real World. Real happy endings don't exist. Life's not like that. Well, I don't watch movies to see life in all its tragedy. I see movies to release tension, not cause it. I see movies to be happy, not heartbroken. I'm a fairly new Browncoat, but I've been looking forward to Sept. 30th with great anticipation... and now, I'm just not. Is it too much to have a happy ending, just once?
The argument's been made that "they're Joss's toys and he can break them if he wants to." And he's got a history of playing rough. He doesn't owe us anything, we all should have known better... Yes, yes, yes, yada yada yada. But when a series shifts so quickly from playful Firefly to deadly Serenity, it's hard not to question, or feel some sort of disappointment-- that "rug has been pulled out from under us" feeling, to borrow that clever phrase 
. It's not so much a criticism of Joss, as it is our deep involvement with and love for the characters. If we didn't love Book and Wash so much-- if Joss & Co. hadn't done such a magnificent job creating them in the first place-- then none of us would be so upset. So we question, and complain, and cry, and demand answers that will somehow lessen the pain. Joss put in those deaths to get a reaction, after all... 
And even though I'm upset, I'm still planning on seeing the movie at least once (and if I can stand the heartbreak, more than once) just
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Quote:
Believe it or not, according to the movie magazine, it was Alan Tudyk's idea. He even approves of how it went down because it adds more realism to the character. It also alludes to the idea that there aren't always happy endings in this version of the 'verse, plus it will give Zoe that much more character development down the road.
Well, then it seems I was 1/2 right. Wash saves everyone and as a result, dies a quick and horrific death.
That Alan was to be written out seems to be an Hollywood/actor thing. That Alan approved the idea or even came up with it, isn't so much a big deal for me. But to the idea that there aren't always happy endings....how about there being ANY happy ones? Sheesh! ( Grappling scene between unnamed doctors and mechanics, not withstanding )
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by nosadseven:Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn:
The thing that bothers me about this thread, ffg, is your continued insistence on an explanation, when several have already been provided. If they aren't sufficient, I'm sorry, but the reasons it happened are all here.
Actually Thrawn I keep repeating my self for the new people that post and don't feel like catching up on everything. So I repeat my original statement basically so they know where I was coming from. By the way, I have a partial answer. I have many other questions that surround the why that have not been answered. I didn't mean my question to sound so simple as to just "why". There are several "why" tangents I would like to examine but it was easier just to say "why" in the threads
I aim to misbehave!
For future reference, ffg, I think the problem is that this whole thread comes off as a game of "Whack-a-mole", which, frankly, gets really old.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.
Doesn't seem like a game of whack-a-mole to the other fans that are still pouring their hearts out over Joss's decisions. There's no one twisting your arm to read this post but I'm still enjoying the heck out of it, especially since more folks have appeared that also believe Joss took the sky from us.
I aim to misbehave!
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Quote:
Originally posted by CommanderAdama:
I'm terribly disappointed with Serenity. I looked forward to it since I first heard it was coming out, but I stumbled upon the spoiler that two main characters were going to die, and out of curiosity I just had to find out who, and I did. Now I'm not going to see the movie in the theater. This was a mistake. As far as I'm concerned Firefly died when the series was canceled. People have said that we owe Joss. Nope, not true at all. He owes us. Fans were the ones who kept it going for the time it did and who caused a movie to happen, sure Joss wrote the story, etc., but that wouldn't have happened if fans hadn't shown support and now to kill characters. Oh heck no. Some have said it adds to realism. I don't agree - um - the Earth is gone, they live on a space ship, not so real right? No. You DON'T need to kill off a character. That's cliche is series and movies now. Who doesn't do it? If I wanted realism I'd step out the door. I hope that there are no more movies after this one. What'd be the point. I don't support that, or this movie. It's not Firefly. Remember Firefly. Yeah - there were shootings and close calls, but it was fun and our people got away in the end. All in all I think Joss was wrong. And he needs to realize that. If people support this then it's only going to make Hollywood think that y'know it's alright to kill off the good guys. I wouldn't accept this movie. You're just saying that well, okay, you didn't do it right, but I'll take it. I'm not going to. Unless they do it right (which I know won't happen) Firefly died for me when it was cancelled.
I agree, he didn't have to kill off characters to make it real, but I believe you may enjoy the movie anyway. I'm not happy but, what's done is done and I still think maybe we should support the actors and Universal. It really is still Firefly, CommanderAdama. I'm sure Joss realizes that many fans are unhappy, if we all support Serenity maybe he'll somehow make amends in the next one. If you hadn't read about the spoilers, you'd have gone to see it at least once, right?
I aim to misbehave!
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Quote:
Originally posted by SweetestHat:
I'd like to agree with FireflyGirl, Stroess, Wibbled, PizmoBeach, FlyingTams and CommanderAdama on this one (even if that puts me in the minority--heaven knows I'm used to it by now). I got spoiled by accident, and knowing that Wash is going to die just about broke my heart. In fact, I'm highly tempted to skip the movie now (but I won't.)
It's true that killing off characters does up the excitement level of a film. It's true that in such a dangerous and deadly situation, it may be ridiculous to expect everyone to survive. It's true that Joss tends to disrupt happy relationships, and almost no-one is safe on his shows. It's all true, and I guess I'm glad to see so many people are pleased by his work.
All these truisms just don't work for me, though.
How many times in all the episodes of Firefly did crew members get shot, stabbed, sliced, beaten mercilessly, electroshocked, asphyxiated, put into chemically-induced comas, punched, and generally mistreated-- and survive? So, it's not so unusual that some of us thought the people we've come to know and love would all make it.
I also don't buy the notion that the only way to truly grab an audience is to kill someone. Firefly grabbed us all without killing main characters. Even though I kinda knew Mal would live through "Out Of Gas," I was still riveted to the screen, wondering what would happen next, and how he'd get out of it. Sure, death raises the stakes; but I feel Joss and Crew are so incredibly talented writers, they could have made the plot exciting in other, non-lethal ways.
And yes, Joss has a history of killing off some very beloved characters. I'm a devotee of both Buffy and Angel, so I'm quite familiar with the list. But... if I'm going to lose a character who's become dear to my heart, I'd like it at least to be something meaningful. Tara died, but it was for a purpose-- to move the story along so Willow would become the Big Bad. Anya died fighting to protect others and destroy evil. So did Doyle, Cordy, Wesley and Gunn-- all of them died making a difference. Maybe that's why I'm not so upset about Book's passing-- he went out fighting. But for Wash to die out of sheer bad luck strikes me as empty, meaningless, and unfulfilling. It's something lesser script-writers have used so much it's become a cliche-- something to jerk the audience around. I really did expect better than such manipulation from Joss and Serenity.
And yes, death is realistic. But don't we watch TV and movies to get away from reality for a while? We've all known pain, suffering and loss in the Real World. Real happy endings don't exist. Life's not like that. Well, I don't watch movies to see life in all its tragedy. I see movies to release tension, not cause it. I see movies to be happy, not heartbroken. I'm a fairly new Browncoat, but I've been looking forward to Sept. 30th with great anticipation... and now, I'm just not. Is it too much to have a happy ending, just once?
The argument's been made that "they're Joss's toys and he can break them if he wants to." And he's got a history of playing rough. He doesn't owe us anything, we all should have known better... Yes, yes, yes, yada yada yada. But when a series shifts so quickly from playful Firefly to deadly Serenity, it's hard not to question, or feel some sort of disappointment-- that "rug has been pulled out from under us" feeling, to borrow that clever phrase
And even though I'm upset, I'm still planning on seeing the movie at least once (and if I c
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Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:Quote:
Originally posted by nosadseven:Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn:
......
......
For future reference, ffg, I think the problem is that this whole thread comes off as a game of "Whack-a-mole", which, frankly, gets really old.
Doesn't seem like a game of whack-a-mole to the other fans that are still pouring their hearts out over Joss's decisions. There's no one twisting your arm to read this post but I'm still enjoying the heck out of it, especially since more folks have appeared that also believe Joss took the sky from us.
I aim to misbehave!
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*WHACK!*
(*rubs head and crawls back under ground*)
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.
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Commanderadama, Sweetesthat, one reccomendation.
Please, please go see the movie before passing judgement.
My friend and I, for the third preview screening this summer, took my friend's mom with us, as she adored the show as much as we did. We'd already seen the second showing this time, and my friend (not being the most subtle creature in the universe) accidentally let it slip that a character died. He sorta tried to take it back, but it was out there. His mom basically said if anyone died, she would be so mad she wouldn't go see any sequels or anything ever again.
Her FIRST WORDS after the end of the movie were "I can't wait for the next one."
There's a HUGE difference in the concept and the execution, and until you see the film you have NO IDEA how well it's used. And, also, how do YOU know that Wash's death isn't for some larger purpose? I mean, Buffy's mom's death seemed kinda pointless in the episode The Body, but for the rest of the season motivated a huge arc. We don't have the huge arc yet - that's next movie. Of COURSE the death will be important - Zoe's story next film is something that I'm sure will be absolutely incredible, and the last scene of the movie already has a surprising character development as a result of Wash's death that I guarantee you won't expect.
Also, you're making one other mistake in your reasoning - you're assuming that the movie is just another episode. Let me explain. If Wash had died in War Stories, in the same way he dies in Serenity, it would have been cheap. It would have been wrong. I would have had all the problems you do here. The movie is approximately 100x as intense and danger-ful as War Stories. It is completely impossible to explain how much more urgent and powerful the film is...you just have to see it. It's not that Joss uses Wash's death as a technique to drive up the tension so he didn't have to use others...he uses all the others, too. And the situation, the movie as a whole, both needs and justifies all of them.
I mean, the death isn't going to work for everyone, as ffg's vociferous, repetitive posts continue to drive home on a regular basis. But if all you know is that Wash dies, that's very different from knowing the circumstances surrounding it, and the results of it. In MY opinion, they more than justify it, they make it absolutely necessary for the movie to work.
Please see it and make up your own mind.
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I just want to echo Thrawn's setiment:
I understand why people who have been spoiled are mad. That's why I hate spoilers, they tell you part of the story, but don't let you see it in context.
What I don't understand is the people who said: I "heard something about the movie that I hate, so I'm not going to see the movie". No matter what you think you know, please go see the movie and judge it yourself. Afterwards feel free to hate it and argue about why it sucked as much as you want. But don't judge a movie based a spoiler.
No matter what happens, I bet there is at least one small part of Serenity you will enjoy. I'd hate for you to miss it just becuase of you disliked something you thought you knew, becuase until you see the movie, all you know is heresay.
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Well, from what I heard from Joss, Wash wasn't going to survive beyond season 2 of the series and the movie represents what was going to be the season 2 finale. So, Wash's death was planed before the series was even cancelled.
Book being Mal's mentor and father figure was an obvious character to die at some stage in the series as well and Book would have been the hardest character to write into a movie series. I think that the death of the two characters was done as a kind of transition from TV series to movie series.
It could have been worse, before I saw the movie somebody posted on a message board that Kaylee died. But even that wouldn't have stopped me from enjoying what is an absolutely awesome movie.
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Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:Quote:
Originally posted by CommanderAdama:
I'm terribly disappointed with Serenity. I looked forward to it since I first heard it was coming out, but I stumbled upon the spoiler that two main characters were going to die, and out of curiosity I just had to find out who, and I did. Now I'm not going to see the movie in the theater. This was a mistake. As far as I'm concerned Firefly died when the series was canceled. People have said that we owe Joss. Nope, not true at all. He owes us. Fans were the ones who kept it going for the time it did and who caused a movie to happen, sure Joss wrote the story, etc., but that wouldn't have happened if fans hadn't shown support and now to kill characters. Oh heck no. Some have said it adds to realism. I don't agree - um - the Earth is gone, they live on a space ship, not so real right? No. You DON'T need to kill off a character. That's cliche is series and movies now. Who doesn't do it? If I wanted realism I'd step out the door. I hope that there are no more movies after this one. What'd be the point. I don't support that, or this movie. It's not Firefly. Remember Firefly. Yeah - there were shootings and close calls, but it was fun and our people got away in the end. All in all I think Joss was wrong. And he needs to realize that. If people support this then it's only going to make Hollywood think that y'know it's alright to kill off the good guys. I wouldn't accept this movie. You're just saying that well, okay, you didn't do it right, but I'll take it. I'm not going to. Unless they do it right (which I know won't happen) Firefly died for me when it was cancelled.
I agree, he didn't have to kill off characters to make it real, but I believe you may enjoy the movie anyway. I'm not happy but, what's done is done and I still think maybe we should support the actors and Universal. It really is still Firefly, CommanderAdama. I'm sure Joss realizes that many fans are unhappy, if we all support Serenity maybe he'll somehow make amends in the next one. If you hadn't read about the spoilers, you'd have gone to see it at least once, right?
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I do plan to see Serenity. In someways I want to boycott it, but when I see the previews I generally shout out "Yeah!"
But knowing that they kill characters, my thinking is going to be the same afterwards, about the characters. Other things I have read about the movie (Non-spoilers about clothing and sets) have turned me off of it. They souped it up for the big screen. All in all I'm going to see the movie. I won't like the death of the characters. In fact I'll hate it. Seeing it in context won't change anything. Even if they had done it in Season Two I would hate it and not want to watch it. Besides the deaths, the movie may rock, I don't know. I'll have to see. I also hope he does something with all the characters in the next installments. And not just in the form of flashbacks. But otherwise, I'm done with Joss Whedon.
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So, this thread is about people getting mad that Joss killed Wash. There are lots of other issues flying around, about realism and such, but those are not as I see it the heart of the matter. We can fling justifications and descriptions of our emotional states at each other for 150 more posts, and nothing will change.
The heart of the argument here is "Wash is dead and that shouldn't be true, and Joss needs to be held accountable for this error in judgement."
Towards this end, let's just get two things clear, shall we?
1) JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN JOSS OWES YOU AN EXPLANATION FOR IT. He did this movie the best way he could, and since it was a movie, he had as much time and space as he needed to get it perfect. This is the best story he could tell. You can tell, reading from the Visual Guide, that he agonized over EVERY WORD. He did his royal best, and then more again on top of that. You can't fault him for that, you just can't. Period.
2) JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN THE WHOLE FANBASE DOESN'T EITHER. As a point of fact, the majority of the fanbase would agree that killing Wash was necessary. More people in this thread approve than are mad, and SUBSTANTIALLY more people who have actually SEEN the movie approve than are mad.
So I'm sorry that you're pissed off, but you need to stop with this "Joss needs to realize..." crap. He made a hard decision that was the best one he could make in his own head, and that most people agree with. Doesn't take away your right to disagree, or to stop watching his stuff, I'm not saying that. It just doesn't make him a bad person, and it doesn't mean he's cheating the fans as a whole.
Let me put it this way. Joss owed *THE FANBASE* the best story he could tell, and *THE FANBASE* loves it, in general. Joss owes *YOU PERSONALLY* no more than the fact that the previous sentence is true.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SweetestHat:
I'd like to agree with FireflyGirl, Stroess, Wibbled, PizmoBeach, FlyingTams and CommanderAdama on this one (even if that puts me in the minority--heaven knows I'm used to it by now). I got spoiled by accident, and knowing that Wash is going to die just about broke my heart. In fact, I'm highly tempted to skip the movie now (but I won't.)
It's true that killing off characters does up the excitement level of a film. It's true that in such a dangerous and deadly situation, it may be ridiculous to expect everyone to survive. It's true that Joss tends to disrupt happy relationships, and almost no-one is safe on his shows. It's all true, and I guess I'm glad to see so many people are pleased by his work.
All these truisms just don't work for me, though.
How many times in all the episodes of Firefly did crew members get shot, stabbed, sliced, beaten mercilessly, electroshocked, asphyxiated, put into chemically-induced comas, punched, and generally mistreated-- and survive? So, it's not so unusual that some of us thought the people we've come to know and love would all make it.
I also don't buy the notion that the only way to truly grab an audience is to kill someone. Firefly grabbed us all without killing main characters. Even though I kinda knew Mal would live through "Out Of Gas," I was still riveted to the screen, wondering what would happen next, and how he'd get out of it. Sure, death raises the stakes; but I feel Joss and Crew are so incredibly talented writers, they could have made the plot exciting in other, non-lethal ways.
And yes, Joss has a history of killing off some very beloved characters. I'm a devotee of both Buffy and Angel, so I'm quite familiar with the list. But... if I'm going to lose a character who's become dear to my heart, I'd like it at least to be something meaningful. Tara died, but it was for a purpose-- to move the story along so Willow would become the Big Bad. Anya died fighting to protect others and destroy evil. So did Doyle, Cordy, Wesley and Gunn-- all of them died making a difference. Maybe that's why I'm not so upset about Book's passing-- he went out fighting. But for Wash to die out of sheer bad luck strikes me as empty, meaningless, and unfulfilling. It's something lesser script-writers have used so much it's become a cliche-- something to jerk the audience around. I really did expect better than such manipulation from Joss and Serenity.
And yes, death is realistic. But don't we watch TV and movies to get away from reality for a while? We've all known pain, suffering and loss in the Real World. Real happy endings don't exist. Life's not like that. Well, I don't watch movies to see life in all its tragedy. I see movies to release tension, not cause it. I see movies to be happy, not heartbroken. I'm a fairly new Browncoat, but I've been looking forward to Sept. 30th with great anticipation... and now, I'm just not. Is it too much to have a happy ending, just once?
The argument's been made that "they're Joss's toys and he can break them if he wants to." And he's got a history of playing rough. He doesn't owe us anything, we all should have known better... Yes, yes, yes, yada yada yada. But when a series shifts so quickly from playful Firefly to deadly Serenity, it's hard not to question, or feel some sort of disappointment-- that "rug has been pulled out from under us" feeling, to borrow that clever phrase
And even though I'm upset, I'm still planning on seeing the movie at least once (and if I c
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn:
So, this thread is about people getting mad that Joss killed Wash. There are lots of other issues flying around, about realism and such, but those are not as I see it the heart of the matter. We can fling justifications and descriptions of our emotional states at each other for 150 more posts, and nothing will change.
The heart of the argument here is "Wash is dead and that shouldn't be true, and Joss needs to be held accountable for this error in judgement."
Towards this end, let's just get two things clear, shall we?
1) JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN JOSS OWES YOU AN EXPLANATION FOR IT. He did this movie the best way he could, and since it was a movie, he had as much time and space as he needed to get it perfect. This is the best story he could tell. You can tell, reading from the Visual Guide, that he agonized over EVERY WORD. He did his royal best, and then more again on top of that. You can't fault him for that, you just can't. Period.
2) JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN THE WHOLE FANBASE DOESN'T EITHER. As a point of fact, the majority of the fanbase would agree that killing Wash was necessary. More people in this thread approve than are mad, and SUBSTANTIALLY more people who have actually SEEN the movie approve than are mad.
So I'm sorry that you're pissed off, but you need to stop with this "Joss needs to realize..." crap. He made a hard decision that was the best one he could make in his own head, and that most people agree with. Doesn't take away your right to disagree, or to stop watching his stuff, I'm not saying that. It just doesn't make him a bad person, and it doesn't mean he's cheating the fans as a whole.
Let me put it this way. Joss owed *THE FANBASE* the best story he could tell, and *THE FANBASE* loves it, in general. Joss owes *YOU PERSONALLY* no more than the fact that the previous sentence is true.
You have made your point several times but as FFG has already said there are many people in this thread that agree with her and you don't have to like it and no one is twisting your arm to read it. So why do you feel you have to continue making an argument against those of us who do hate what happened? We may be in disagreement with you but we have a right to feel the way we do. I have said earlier that I have been here since DAY ONE. I have gone through all of the pain and suffering that the rest of you have endured with the series, etc. I have a right to my opinion and if you are so unhappy with the way we feel why can't you let us commiserate in peace and go on your own way. You don't have to be rude because we are in a disagreement, just leave us alone.
And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling. Mal, Train Job
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Quote:
So I'm sorry that you're pissed off, but you need to stop with this "Joss needs to realize..." crap. He made a hard decision that was the best one he could make in his own head, and that most people agree with. Doesn't take away your right to disagree, or to stop watching his stuff, I'm not saying that. It just doesn't make him a bad person, and it doesn't mean he's cheating the fans as a whole.
Word word word.
Quote:
Let me put it this way. Joss owed *THE FANBASE* the best story he could tell
This is pretty much what it much boils down to. Well said.
"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn:
So, this thread is about people getting mad that Joss killed Wash. There are lots of other issues flying around, about realism and such, but those are not as I see it the heart of the matter. We can fling justifications and descriptions of our emotional states at each other for 150 more posts, and nothing will change.
The heart of the argument here is "Wash is dead and that shouldn't be true, and Joss needs to be held accountable for this error in judgement."
Towards this end, let's just get two things clear, shall we?
1) JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN JOSS OWES YOU AN EXPLANATION FOR IT. He did this movie the best way he could, and since it was a movie, he had as much time and space as he needed to get it perfect. This is the best story he could tell. You can tell, reading from the Visual Guide, that he agonized over EVERY WORD. He did his royal best, and then more again on top of that. You can't fault him for that, you just can't. Period.
2) JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN THE WHOLE FANBASE DOESN'T EITHER. As a point of fact, the majority of the fanbase would agree that killing Wash was necessary. More people in this thread approve than are mad, and SUBSTANTIALLY more people who have actually SEEN the movie approve than are mad.
So I'm sorry that you're pissed off, but you need to stop with this "Joss needs to realize..." crap. He made a hard decision that was the best one he could make in his own head, and that most people agree with. Doesn't take away your right to disagree, or to stop watching his stuff, I'm not saying that. It just doesn't make him a bad person, and it doesn't mean he's cheating the fans as a whole.
Let me put it this way. Joss owed *THE FANBASE* the best story he could tell, and *THE FANBASE* loves it, in general. Joss owes *YOU PERSONALLY* no more than the fact that the previous sentence is true.
ABSADOODLE!
"It's about how much freedom you can take away from somebody before they either fold or fight," Whedon says. "It's about the right to be wrong and the nature of human beings, that they need the freedom to be wrong. That they cannot be made to be better or perfect."--Joss Whedon on Serenity
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Quote:
Originally posted by DucesTecum:
You have made your point several times but as FFG has already said there are many people in this thread that agree with her and you don't have to like it and no one is twisting your arm to read it. So why do you feel you have to continue making an argument against those of us who do hate what happened? We may be in disagreement with you but we have a right to feel the way we do. I have said earlier that I have been here since DAY ONE. I have gone through all of the pain and suffering that the rest of you have endured with the series, etc. I have a right to my opinion and if you are so unhappy with the way we feel why can't you let us commiserate in peace and go on your own way. You don't have to be rude because we are in a disagreement, just leave us alone.
And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling. Mal, Train Job
I'm sorry; I thought I was being clear. I do disagree with you, but I'm not arguing that anymore, I acknowledged in my previous post that was getting nowhere.
My last post was to say that even if you disagree, it doesn't mean Joss is evil or bad, or Joss owes you anything more than what he gave. You can dislike the movie all you want; I've realized, much as I may want to, I can't dissuade anyone from that. It's the rest that still bothers me.
But to answer your first question, I kept posting because I LOVE this movie, more than anything else I've EVER seen. I feel so strongly about it that I was trying to do everything I could to help other people have the same experience I did. If it made you mad, I'm deeply sorry; I've stopped now anyhow.
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Well...the answer to your questions, "Why", should be apparent based on the number of responses to the topic. No one who has seen the movie is "happy" that Wash is gone. EVERYONE would like to know more about Book.
What makes Joss' writing so powerful is the emotional value of his characters and what they mean to the audience. You wouldn't have become so attached during Firefly if he had given you any less than he did. And with a shorter, more intense dose of the 'verse in the form of a movie, comes the reality that life in the black is dangerous, and that consequences can't be stretched out over the next 5 hours of show. They need to be immediate, and in some cases they NEED to be brutal. You wouldn't be as emotional about this film if no one died. You may have had a bit of a skip to your step, but that wouldn't be true to the nature of the story. And I feel that this story was more important to me because it made me feel so strongly. Feeling something so strongly, even if it is negative, is a real gift. frankly there are too many apathetic souls out there, and empathy is lost as a whole, unfortunately. But this emotion is so potent, and that only comes once in a while.
Now, it is up to the individual to decide if that is the kind of entertainment you want. Many folks only want a happy ending, and to feel good at the end of the day. That is your choice. But to deny the sadness also weakens the beauty.
I don't think that Joss betrayed us. I think that he treated us like the intelligent fanbase that we are. We have always been treated like his accelerated pupils, and sometimes life's lessons are hard. But it is through these darknesses that the light shines so brightly.
I can understand people who have seen the movie and are so sad they become mad, but what I cannot stand for is people who haven't seen the movie and won't because of the spoilers. That makes me very irate and makes me believe you didn't "get it" in the first place. My answer to that is "no loss". I will be seeing it enough for those few, anyway.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cerenity:
I don't think that Joss betrayed us. I think that he treated us like the intelligent fanbase that we are. We have always been treated like his accelerated pupils, and sometimes life's lessons are hard. But it is through these darknesses that the light shines so brightly.
Amen, Cerenity! Very well stated. I would just like to add a quote from Joss from several years ago:
"I do not give the audience what they want - I give the audience what they need."
"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care. Or indeed, why it should be necessary to prove it at all." -Kerr Avon
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1) There is no excuse for you to threaten someone's life just because he is killing off two of your characters. You are drifting into a real life felony here.
2) Joss loves to shake things up. Consider yourself shaken. Okay, this isn't the real world. In the real world when people fight, people die. And it is A LOT worse than in the movies. This ain't Star Wars.
One of the things I always admired about Joss was his decisions to kill off a main character. Only in this 'verse, they won't be coming back to life.
3) If the movie is a BIG hit. Say >$200 million. There is no way Firefly/Serenity will ever return to the small screen, since the actors would have to take too much of a pay cut. That means subsequent movies. Joss has already said he is likely to produce the pre-quells which are out as comic books since he has already sketched them out. That means Books is back for at least one movie (I haven't read the comic books, so how extensive he is in it, I know not. Second, Wash is back.)
So chill, and keep the secrets contained within this movie so others can be surprised.
In war, truth is the first casualty. -- Aeschylus.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote! Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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I think the two things we all agree on is to disagree AND that those who saw Serenity think it was a great movie (regardless of whether we were happy with certain parts). I do agree with everyone who mentioned that those who hate the movie and don't want to see it based on what they've heard, should still go see it and show support and judge it as a WHOLE movie, then still be pissed that Book and Wash died.
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Maybe my new personal tagline for Joss is "He has done the unthinkable, and that makes me whiny." I fell in love with Nine. Nine, not Seven of Nine (although "Seven of Nine" in Star Trek was a total hottie. But I digress.). So yeah, part of my frustration is the loss of two of the ensemble.
But another part of my frustration is my perception of a shift from the homey, ambling, aged, earth-tones flavor of Firefly into the buzzing driven imminent steeliness of Serenity. Where I felt Firefly to be very 'Yin,' Serenity feels quite 'Yang.' (I'm basing this off of how 'Versal has chosen to promote in the trailers.) To some extent it is the nature of the medium: first-shot movies supposedly don't lend as well to 'ambling' as tv does. But that doesn't change for me that Firefly and Serenity have very different, umm, timbres.
Anybody else out there who is still following this thread is either a glutton for punishment, or like me is enjoying the (generally) respectful exchange of ideas and emotions on this subject. So for whomever is still on this ride, mind if I pose a question for you?. This'll call for very cold detachment and, for those who've already seen Serenity, you gotta pretend like it was never made. We'll all keep this civil and fun, hopefully?
Step back to just after the tv show ended, and tell me:
If YOU had to write a movie to follow the tv show, and you HAD to choose TWO of the nine to kill off in YOUR own way,
Which two would you choose to kill?
I'll go first. I'da chosen Kaylee because she does not drive any of the main story arcs, and I'da chosen Doc Simon because the crew could take over on the nurturing behavior (medical skills notwithstanding). Maybe make both of 'em both go out together in some sort of romantic "lovers' leap."
Anyone else wanna engage in this morbid and creepifying speculation with me? Like this thread, no right or wrong answers.
zipply
(Lurker, generally speaking. I'm known to some.)
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Who would I kill?
Book and Inara. Neither of them is a crew-member.
River, I'd keep on for a while because she's fun to watch, and without her, Simon has no purpose.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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I've seen the BDM twice so-far, once in May and once in June. I still think it is the best movie of the year.
I also am of the opinion that Wash and Book's deaths were necessary. It put that element of danger into the finale of the film. I sat there in the theater, watching Zoe get shot and Mal get shot and I truly wondered to myself, was ANYONE, including Serenity herself, going to survive the film? Did Joss really mean it when he said he was going to use the opportunity the movie presented to tie up loose ends the series left dangling by literally tying up everyone and gutting them? As a result, until that final scene and the house light came back up, I was on the edge of my seat wondering how it would turn out! It was exciteing! It was frustrating! It made me want more! Which, you must admit, is Joss' overriding reason.
I have to say, I truly understand why Joss did what he did, and while it saddened me, I can't disagree with it.
How many times have you gone to see a Star Trek film, knowing the main characters could not die (okay, with one exception in STII, but everyone knew that was coming before they even set foot in the theater) and that took away some of the tension and excitement for you because you knew they were 'safe' ? 
I'm sorry, but I must be on the disagreeing side of this discussion.
Captain Pete
"What can Brown do for you?"
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Just saw it a few hours ago and it devestated me. I think it's remembering how happy he was, on the ship and with Zoe, and how it all oddly seems real and textured now because of his and Book's death.
I wish they hadn't died, but I know and agree with why Joss did it. It was a cruel blow, and unexpected for me, and though I was stealing myself for something like this I thought I'd be able to handle it better.
I began to cry when we saw the graves with the flickering images of them, Mr Universe oddly affecting me almost as much as Book and Wash in that context.
And I was so distraught and shell-shocked when I left the auditorium, that I walked into the ladies toilets instead of the gents! Managed to retreat quickly, with the comment, "hit you pretty hard, huh?" and a nervous laugh from a girl at the door.
I compare this film death to the moment when I realised Morpheus was going to die in the Sandman, that it was just a matter of time and I couldn't do anything about it. I associate it with the good doctor Frank's death in my fave film 'A Matter of Life & Death', and with Midshipman Hollom's and Calumny's in 'Master & Commander', my fave film of 2003. Then there was Fuschia in Gormenghast, and the ending of The Amber Spy Glass trilogy...
Great stories have pain as well as hope. The two cannot exist without the other.
And I began to wonder if even any of them would survive by the end.
I'm hurt, but I'm still walking. This must have been what it was like for Mal in Serenity Valley... only worse.
"If you can keep your head whilst others... eurgh! Ack! I've spilt my ink! Ugh! Ink on my trousers! Agh! Ink on my shirt! My only hope! The window! Aieeeeee!" (Falls to death)
- Jonathan Nash
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Thanks Fireflygal for the spoiler. Wash and Zoe are my favorite characters. I have been awaiting this movie since the day they cancelled Firefly. Now, with this news that Wash is killed off; all of my excitement has just waned and I will not be waiting in line to see the movie now. I can't watch Wash die, knowing he won't be coming back. Maybe someday when the pain of this is healed I will watch it on DVD but I just can't watch it right now..
Rodash
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Argh, double post...
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Quote:
Originally posted by rodash:
Thanks Fireflygal for the spoiler. Wash and Zoe are my favorite characters. I have been awaiting this movie since the day they cancelled Firefly. Now, with this news that Wash is killed off; all of my excitement has just waned and I will not be waiting in line to see the movie now. I can't watch Wash die, knowing he won't be coming back. Maybe someday when the pain of this is healed I will watch it on DVD but I just can't watch it right now..
Rodash
I'm sorry, what? It's a bit harsh to blame someone for spoiling you when it was in a thread marked 'Major Spoiler' and begun with the words 'DO NOT READ THIS IF YOU HATE SPOILERS!'. You really have no-one to blame but yourself.
Nevertheless, if you think that your excitement has waned, see the movie. Excitement, thy name is Serenity (seen it twice, both times I was shaking from adrenalin for at least the last hour)...
In addition, why wait for the pain has healed to see the movie?? The wound will just be reopened as soon as you witness The Moment. Why not get it over with when it arrives on our cinema screens, seeing it as you were meant to, 15 feet high? Plus if you see it in the cinema there's all the more chance that Zoe and Wash will reappear in your life some time in the future (if only in flashback in the latter's case...)
'The question seldom addressed is where Medusa had snakes. Underarm hair is an even more embarassing problem when it keeps biting the top of the deodorant bottle.'
-Terry Pratchett
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I'd assumed she was genuinely thanking for the spoiler? I can't imagine someone complaining about a spoiler in a thread marked spoiler.
I figured it was, "Thanks for the spoiler, you've allowed me to save my time and money."
And if this spoiler has traumatized that person so much that they will not see the movie... well, then, you really ought not to see it. Delicate minds and hearts ought not to face the white-knuckled excitement of Serenity.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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I just wonder if all of you who agree with what Joss has done, would still agree, if it was Mal or Inara who was killed instead of Wash or Book? Would you still believe that Joss is a genius, and not question anything he does? Killing one of those two would have REALLY been brave; but he didn't do that. I didn't think that either had to die, to make it realistic, to make it tragic. It was only done to hurt the fans. Non-Browncoats will not be affected in the same way. Jayne will now be watered down and supply the "voice of reason" that Wash had done. Book supplied us with mystery, compassion, faith and hope. The chemical balance of the ENSEMBLE cast, where each of us had a character that we identified with, is gone.
I'm new here, but I just thought that I would posit my question to you all...would you feel the same if Mal or Inara had been killed? If you feel that Joss is right in ANYTHING he does, then you would have no more problem if they were killed, than Book and Wash.
Quest5227
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Quote:
Originally posted by quest5227:
I just wonder if all of you who agree with what Joss has done, would still agree, if it was Mal or Inara who was killed instead of Wash? Would you still believe that Joss is a genius, and not question anything he does? Killing one of them would have REALLY been brave; but he didn't do that. I didn't think that either had to die, to make it realistic, to make it tragic. It was only done to hurt the fans. Non-Browncoats will not be affected in the same way.
I'm new here, but I just thought that I would posit my question to you all...
Quest5227
Yes, that's right, Whedon just did it to hurt the fans. The fans that he's constantly praised and lauded for being the reason he's been able to make this in the first place. How he must hate us.
If it had been Mal or Inara, and done well in a way that made sense in context, I would probably feel exactly the same as I do about Wash and Book. However, as it was pretty much Mal's story, it wouldn't have made an awful lot of sense for him to die before his story was complete, IMHO. Book's death was a catalyst, as others have pointed out, galvanising Mal into action when previously he had just been running. And Wash died to increase the sense of danger and conviction that anyone could perish. Worked for me.
(And, incidentally, why would killing Inara be any braver? She was pretty peripheral to the story, probably more so than Wash, and Book's relationship to the Captain had way more emotional resonance in the film. A lot about Inara was very interesting, and Morena Baccarin is gorgeous as hell, but in many ways she's the *least* interesting character on that ship. Again, IMHO. Anyway, I digress.)
What gets me about many of the naysayers pointing out that people didn't have to die is the insistence that Whedon uses it as a cliche. Yes, it is true that he has killed characters before unexpectedly, but surely the greater cliche is our protagonists surviving almost insurmountable odds unscathed; surely here Whedon is *defying* the norm. Yes, you could argue that in Firefly and other of his works his characters still survive most of the time in ridiculously hazardous occasions, but the fact that they do drop dead on occasion at least alleviates that a bit. It's a Catch 22 situation. You can bet that if no-one died people would be complaining all over the place that there was no sense of tension, that it all seemed too neat. Rather how I felt about Revenge of the Sith in fact. We knew who would die, we knew how. The result: 'meh'.
Okay, the death of Wash absolutely *will*not* have the same emotional impact on the casual viewer as it has on a fully signed up Browncoat, but it will, for that casual viewer, help ensure their attention. This is not a fluffy reality where all our heroes make it, unlike so much of the chaff out there.
For the record, I do not worship Joss Whedon, I do question things he does; many things about Buffy and Angel, and even a few things about Firefly and Serenity, piss me off (I would list some if I had the time; email me if you *really* care). But these little things didn't stop the heart-wrenching thrill I felt for almost two hours in the cinema. The bad outweighs the good by a considerable margin; I would *never* claim there is no bad, because there *always* is. But I can tell you this much, it's fucking better storytelling than 95% of the crap out there. Sturgeon's law, pure and simple.
But yes, it is painful, and I think, obviously, that's what many people are having problems with it. But when was the last time you were moved by something that didn't have a little bit of pain mixed in? I can't make anyone like it who didn't, but I think you should at least give it a chance, if you at all had any respect for the craft that went into the series.
Anyway, sorry if I came on a little strong there, but as you can probably tell, I feel rather strongly about this. I also do not like the implication that if we possibly think the deaths were a good move for the sto
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Jamiec: I respect your position. I'd like to e-mail you directly, but we'll have to continue this discussion another time. I've got to be away from my computer until tomorrow. Is there a way to reach you directly, or would you rather continue here?
a) when I said "hurt the fans," I meant to make us feel pain. I don't think newbies will feel that as we did.
b) when I said Killing Inara would be braver, I meant that I believe that a great many of us are waiting, and have been waiting for Mal and Inara to get together. Killing her would make that impossible, and I think many fans would be dissapointed that they never got together.
c) On Firefly, the crew had a great many close shaves, and yet none died. I felt that killing off not one, but two, in the very first movie, leaves you with less to work with in the sequel. And as I mentioned, I felt that the chemsitry was one of the best things about the show.
I concur with FFG that we should all support Serenity, and I plan to do just that. I didn't hate the film, I just disagree with some of the authors choices.
Finally, I have been moved by happiness as well as tragedy. I would have preferred this movie to be happy, and then make me sad for the sequel. That's all.
quest5227@yahoo.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by quest5227:
Jamiec: I respect your position. I'd like to e-mail you directly, but we'll have to continue this discussion another time. I've got to be away from my computer until tomorrow. Is there a way to reach you directly, or would you rather continue here?
a) when I said "hurt the fans," I meant to make us feel pain. I don't think newbies will feel that as we did.
b) when I said Killing Inara would be braver, I meant that I believe that a great many of us are waiting, and have been waiting for Mal and Inara to get together. Killing her would make that impossible, and I think many fans would be dissapointed that they never got together.
c) On Firefly, the crew had a great many close shaves, and yet none died. I felt that killing off not one, but two, in the very first movie, leaves you with less to work with in the sequel. And as I mentioned, I felt that the chemsitry was one of the best things about the show.
I concur with FFG that we should all support Serenity, and I plan to do just that. I didn't hate the film, I just disagree with some of the authors choices.
Finally, I have been moved by happiness as well as tragedy. I would have preferred this movie to be happy, and then make me sad for the sequel. That's all.
quest5227@yahoo.com
Thanks for such a reasonable response to my rambling and occasionally aggressive post :-) I'll continue the discussion here, no worries... to answer your points one by one:
a) If that's what you mean, then fair enough, I agree with you; or at least, I agree to the extent that it is part of the reason Whedon wrote it. As I pointed out above, I do believe The Moment has an effect on casual viewers, even though not as emotionally significant; apart from anything else it's a 'chucklechuckleohmygodhe'sdead' moment which will at the very least surprise anyone who hasn't been spoiled.
b) To that extent I agree that it would indeed be brave to kill Inara and/or Mal. However, I don't think it's any braver than killing Wash, in essence destroying another relationship that was superbly handled in the show and, had the show continued, would doubtless had many more twists. From what I heard from Whedon at Edinburgh and have read elsewhere, it adamantly wasn't an easy, pat decision - there was real heart-rending involved.
c) You have a very good point about the close shaves in the series; in fact, one of my major problems with the show (there aren't many..) is the very fact that, practically once every couple of episodes, there's a character at death's door, yet no-one pegs it. That's why I felt the film redressed the balance, and marked it out from just being a two-part episode (for reference: Star Trek Insurrection). The stakes were upped significantly, and that's what it needed to make it as a film; it could not have just been a movie about another heist-gone-wrong; fans would love it, mainstream audiences would go 'that's all very well, but what's the point?' (and yes, I agree that mainstream audience have not yet been properly tested as to how they will respond, but I hope and believe they will respond more positively to the approach taken by Serenity).
I agree utterly that chemistry between the cast is one of the best things about the series, but I don't think this will be diluted by the deaths of two members. I think it opens up fascinating avenues for exploration between various characters.
Maybe there will be less to work with in a literal sense that there will be two less voices involved, but the fact is that nine main cast members makes for a pretty top-heavy cast for anything under three hours. Hell, it's pushing it for a tv series! It's amazing that they packed in as much character interaction as they did in 14 episodes, much less surprising Whedon wants less to work with in the sequels. Less voices to serve, less voices to do a disservice to. Bear in mind that despite the brilliance that the cast chemistry was, there were episodes that pushed various members almost completely out of the limelight,
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As sorry as I am to see Wash go (he was one of my favourite crewmembers), the almighty shocked "GASP!!!!" that filled the cinema I was in was an incredible pay-off!
Death is like that sometimes - comes from nowhere, for no reason and strikes at someone you love, taking them before you even have a chance to say "good-bye".
I mourn the loss of Wash, but am pleased with the reaction this particular storyline twist created...
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No, I meant thank you in a good way. In the last 4 years I have lost 3 very close family members; I do not want to pay to see 2 more die - that's all.
Enjoy fellow Browncoats.....but I am done!
Rodash
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Quote:
Originally posted by rodash:
No, I meant thank you in a good way. In the last 4 years I have lost 3 very close family members; I do not want to pay to see 2 more die - that's all.
Enjoy fellow Browncoats.....but I am done!
Rodash
Ah, right; I didn't realise that was the case and apologies if I came across as insensitive. That's a very understandable reason and I'm sorry for your loss.
'The question seldom addressed is where Medusa had snakes. Underarm hair is an even more embarassing problem when it keeps biting the top of the deodorant bottle.'
-Terry Pratchett
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Rodash - sorry for your loss.
I have some sympathy for your point of view - I had no forewarning, and after I saw the film, I was depressed for a week.
But rest assured that, first of all, their deaths are not arbitrary or manipulative - they serve a greater purpose than impressing the newbies. They may not be heroic in the traditional sense, but (more major spoilers follow)
Select to view spoiler:
if the character decisions that lead to their deaths hadn't been made, the 'verse would be much worse for it in the long run. Because of Book's death, Mal decides to stop running. Book's last words inspire him to find something worth fighting for - something that could affect the entire 'verse. Wash, in turn, dies helping him ensure that that something is brought to light.
Though Book was a victim, he made sure he took out some of the Alliance bastards who killed him. Also, some suggestions are made that he might have been an Operative much like the one that orders his death - so, in a sense it could have been his past catching up with him. Wash knew what he was getting into, and his last act before dying was landing a crippled Serenity, ensuring that everyone else lived.
Secondly, I've heard that Joss Whedon is determined to bring Ron Glass and Alan Tudyk back for the sequels. We'll be seeing them again in some form or another.
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As for the spec about Mal's back-shot, I remember seeing a bolt of electricity, as if he'd been hit by a taser. Now, that normally incapacitates a person for several minutes, but it's somewhat more plausible than recovery from a bullet-hit.
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Thank you for your kindness JamieC and Murmurer.
Also Murmurer:
Thank you for the MAJOR SPOILERs; your last sentence makes me somewhat hopeful.
Rodash
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*Bump*
I am bumping this because more people have seen the movie, and more people will continue to see it in the days ahead. I don't agree with all of the sentiments here, but I know many people will share them. Best not to have to rehash old ground in a hundred new threads, but rather keep it contained here. Please everyone bump this till the movie comes out.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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I had the chance of speaking with both Alan and Joss at the premiere party. Both of them assured me that everything was going to be fine and ok and that Wash would be back. Joss wasn't specific as to how, but he said he had "many theories" (as I told him I had a couple myself). I trust him. Even if I felt like I'd been stabbed with a plastic woodgrain stake through the chest when I found out about Wash's fate...
MAL: If anyone gets nosy, just, you know... shoot 'em.
ZOE: Shoot 'em?
MAL: Politely.
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"If you're going to say that the price of freedom is high, then you just can't say it. Otherwise you're lying. A thing in movies that I have always been annoyed by is the righteous lord that looks over all of us but only kills the annoying guy. It's tradition. If you like somebody, they can't be harmed. And ultimately, I'm like, no no no, you know what? If you get yourself into a war, guess what? It's a war. And I put everybody through... just... hell. And literally, people need to know that everybody is expendable because otherwise they aren't going to be involved, they're going to know that I was disingenuous (sp?), that I said the price of freedom was high, but I didn't really mean it."
A quote from the Joss interview at the fandom.com that I felt was relevant to the topic.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tracy:
I had the chance of speaking with both Alan and Joss at the premiere party. Both of them assured me that everything was going to be fine and ok and that Wash would be back. Joss wasn't specific as to how, but he said he had "many theories" (as I told him I had a couple myself). I trust him.
I spoke to Ron Glass after the premiere at Universal City on the 22nd. After complimenting him on his performance, I mentioned that I was a bit disappointed that we didn't learn Book's story. He said, "Tell Joss."
He didn't say anything else but MY impression/feeling was that he was not pleased that his character was killed off.
I knew this movie was going to River's story. My speculation was that the 2nd movie, if there was one, might explore Book and what moral choice he made, and that the third would wrap things up with Mal. And somewhere in there we would learn why Inara left her House.
I thoroughly enjoyed the movie: it was intense, dramatic, and ADULT. However, as an earlier poster pointed out: "this is dark Serenity not playful Firefly." The darkness and intensity makes me slightly reluctant to take my 13 and 11 year old daughters but I will. (Note to Joss: if anything happens to Kaylee in any sequels, my daughters will need therapy and I will be sending you the bill
)I'm nervous about the demographics of the movie for non-Browncoats. Will adults looking for an intense drama be turned away because of the SF action-adventure elements? Will the teenagers and younger, looking for sf action-adventure, be turned off by the adult drama of the story? Let's hope us Browncoats and word of mouth will get people into the theater for this very unique movie.
P.S. Having seen Classic Star Trek change when it made it to the big screen, I suppose I knew in my heart that Serenity would be different from Firefly. It was still a surprise. I like both but I'll be in different moods for repeat reviewings.
***************
"'Course, there are other schools of thought."
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I've seen the movie for the 5th time as of yesterday and come to realize I hate that Wash and Book die more and more each time. IN MY OPINION (let's be clear on that) it wasn't necessary, it wasn't what I wanted and despite Joss's quote saying he gives fans what they need, it sure as go se wasn't what I needed.
But as I have repeatedly said I will go see it again and again because I support Universal and the cast and I want the trilogy.
I aim to misbehave!
Firefly items:
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e-mail FireflyGal1@hotmail.com
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Thank you for the response, Fireflygal.
I've only seen the movie once. There is a lot going on and I am sure that I didn't catch all of it. I'm waiting for Friday for a 2nd veiwing.
Being old enough to have watched Classic Trek as it aired, I was sort of watching the movie the same way that I was watching the first Star Trek movie: please...please...be a good movie so that there will be more.
In terms of non-Browncoats, Book has so little screen time and so little involvement in the movie that his death has little meaning in the movie, except to show that The Operative is a bad and ruthless guy. But that was shown in the deaths of other people that Serenity contacted. So, the death of Book adds little to the movie. However, it does deprive us Browncoats of an extremely interesting and important character and the mystery of his background.
Wash, I liked very much but, I hate to say it, he was probably one of the most dispensable characters (or at least someone without a pending mystery when the show was canceled). I've read the theory that he had to die to make the danger to the others seem so very real and there is merit to that point of view. But I was already convinced of the danger so I'm not sure it added much.
And, in some ways, this is a reboot or restart of the show. Since there is $40 million involved, the movie is geared to a general audience, as well as us. But, the non-Browncoats don't know Wash well enough to feel the pain of his death. Save that for the sequel and until they know him, then they will feel it. In the movie he's just "the funny pilot" who dies.
The two deaths break up the ensemble. One of the charms of the series was the feeling of family. I couldn't quite hear the dialog, but Mal mumbles to River in the end something about "a ship runs on love". That was a bit missing because there was so much conflict and drama within the crew. I want to be part of the "Firefly" crew, I'm not so sure about sailing on the "Serenity".
I think the movie is an amazing achievement but it is "Serenity" not "Firefly". In the future, if I want an intense dramatic experience, I will pop the future Serentiy DVD into the player. If I want to have fun, I will probably pop a Firefly DVD in.
***************
"'Course, there are other schools of thought."
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Great review up on AICN, and the guy spends most of it talking about Joss's decision to off Book and Wash.
Quote:
Hola all. An emotionally torn Massawyrm here. For years I’ve bitched, I’ve ranted and I’ve downright screamed about the direction Hollywood went in the 80’s and never returned from. Many a film has pissed me off and let me down for absolutely failing the audiences of the world by making sure it always worked out in the end – making sure the heroes rode off into the sunset together. It seems that every mortal wound can be fixed these days, and as films are tested, retested and tested again we’ve ended up with a steady stream of homogenized entertainment that has forgotten the primary rule of ending a story – that there are two endings to every story: The ending the audience wants and the ending the audience really wants. The Audience wants E.T. to stay with Eliot. The audience wants Ilsa to stay with Rick, not Victor. The audience wants Jack to survive the cold waters to take care of Rose. And there’s a reason we love these movies despite these endings not being delivered. That’s because these endings suck. And for years, except for a few bright spots, these are the endings we’ve been given time and time again.
This has been my belief for years – something I’ve looked for in films, something I’ve hoped for in films and something that’s stuck with me in everything I’ve ever written. And tonight that belief has been tested. Joss Whedon has taken the crew of the Serenity, a crew I’ve come to love over time, put them through a hell from which they can never return and left me bleeding and crying on the mattress. And I don’t know if I want to kick him squaw in the nuts or kiss him square on the mouth for it.
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Joss Whedon has the biggest god damned set of balls I’ve seen in God knows how long. Joss Whedon has made a film that will piss off a lot of his fanbase, hell, that pissed me off, and if successful could have single handedly ushered back the days of old – at least as far as Genre Filmmaking is concerned. Joss Whedon has made his Seven Samurai, his Dirty Dozen, his Wild Bunch. Joss Whedon has made the first truly great space opera in quite some time.
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Serenity is everything Firefly always seemed to want to be but never was. Serenity is everything it should be and then some. Serenity is real honest to god Western that puts you right on the edge of your seat praying for someone, anyone to come out alive, and never promising that that’s actually going to happen. Serenity hits everything it aims at – it’s continuously funny, even in the most dramatic of sequences; it’s heartbreaking at the most unexpected of times; and it’s chock full of action and real danger every step of the way.
There is never a dull moment in Serenity, never a moment I wouldn’t willingly go back to and rewatch over and over again. And despite what Joss put me through, despite feeling cheated, feeling robbed, feeling like all of Firefly was just a sham, I can’t wait to go back. I can’t wait to spend those precious few moments with the crew of the Serenity one more time. And I never thought, even while watching the movie, that this was possible. I had no faith in Joss. I honestly thought he was going to cheat – that everything was just a dream, that this was all a premonition of River’s that would lead them on a different path, that River might possess some great, unknown juju that could fix it and make it all better. And that lack of faith scared me more than the idea of never seeing the crew alive again.
But I take it all back, Joss. I have faith. I believe in you now. You’ve made a real classic genre film, one I’ll see several more times in a theatre long before I can put it in my DVD player on repeat. One I’ll swear to in the morning when I wake up and give my daily praise to when I thank Cameron and Jackson and early Spielberg and
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I'ma have to agree with Firefly Gal here. I can honestly say that I enjoyed the film less because Wash died. Like many others, Book's death I can accept. I mean, he personally took down a spaceship before the end. He was a good character to sacrifice, and the whole movie suggested tantalizing possibilities about his past (IE was he an Operative?).
But Wash...
Wash's death served no purpose. It didn't make the movie more dramatic for me--I didn't believe he was dead until I saw his tombstone, and then I just felt betrayed. It didn't add a gritty realism to the story--one minute he was there, then he was impaled, then the scene ended. No special notice was even paid to it. It didn't add to the plot. Nothing that happened afterwards was even related to it (Zoe's "berseker" thing was kind of lame and only lasted like 5 seconds). It only left me feeling confused and let down. It made me downgrade my opinion of the film from great to mediocre.
Wash was the heart and soul of the crew. He was one of the things that made the show worth watching. He brought something to the show that no one else could, and Joss cut that off. Gratuitously, I might add.
I'm not a Buffy/Angel fan. My faith in Joss is based entirely on Firefly. And to see him casually throw away everyone's favorite character for no good reason seriously makes me doubt his abilities as a storyteller. Maybe Firefly was a fluke.
I had planned to go back to see it every week. Now I'm not sure that I'll go back at all. Maybe when it gets to the Dollar Theater.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Declan:Quote:
Originally posted by Tracy:
I had the chance of speaking with both Alan and Joss at the premiere party. Both of them assured me that everything was going to be fine and ok and that Wash would be back. Joss wasn't specific as to how, but he said he had "many theories" (as I told him I had a couple myself). I trust him.
I spoke to Ron Glass after the premiere at Universal City on the 22nd. After complimenting him on his performance, I mentioned that I was a bit disappointed that we didn't learn Book's story. He said, "Tell Joss."
He didn't say anything else but MY impression/feeling was that he was not pleased that his character was killed off.
That's not it at all - he had the same reply at Dragon Con when people suggested the chance of getting Book's backstory in comic book or novel form - if a novel, then made on CD and read by him. Ron thinks that we are VERY VOCAL and we're HEARD by TPTB when it comes to what we wanna see. I'd say wait and see what's next. For now, let's concentrate on trying to HAVE a next.
"Can I make a suggestion that doesn't involve violence? Or is this the wrong crowd for that?" (Wash)
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I am pro-death, it really needed to be there, and with Book off the ship I expected it, now Wash was a suprise but again, they needed a little traged, and to get Zoe to the same place Mal was...back in Serenity Valley, However I do disagree that more should have been killed, would've ruined all sequel hope to take to many, if Kaylee dies, then Simon may as well have, and with Simon dead, the reavers could've overrun River and Jayne, leaving Mal the only survivor, I just hope he doesn't try to re-place them, because no wise-cracking pilot is gonna replace Wash
"There are no heroes, just men like me."
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Its time joss grows the up - if he has talent he does not have to kill of characters left right and center for some cheap effect.
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*WAAAAAAAH-WAAAAAAAAAH*
oh quit yer belly-achin'.
how old are you?!
do you read? ever?
have you never ever in life seen a movie or play that didn't make you feel all goody goody touchy feely happy at the end?
ooooh....joss has some nerve having a STORY ARC in his writing.
damn! who does joss think he is for writing a story where things happen...like they do in REAL LIFE.
please.
i've started watching buffy and angel and it seems to me that joss is a big fan of 'shit happens'.
as far as i'm concerned, it's refreshing.
yeah, i gasped and actually said "son of a bitch!", but it was still a glorious experience.
do yourself a favour: read something. start with "romeo & juliet". or see "shakespere in love".
don't hate. appreciate.
"take me, sir. take me hard." -- zoe
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I don't watch movies to be dissapointed and depressed. I watch movies to have a good time. Sorry if that offends you.
Firefly was fun, and enjoyable even in its darker moments. Serenity wasn't. And killing a well-loved main character for -shock value- isn't the mark of a good writer.
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Your thread reminds me of that movie MISERY.
If you haven't seen it - watch it. And then compare your comments to those of Kathy Bates character.
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so then,
movie #2, everyone gets killed off, the universe implodes upon itself. But with some limited flashbacks so that we can see Wash and Book again.
movie #3, a prequel - cool!
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LOL "Grumpy old man" sez "If real life had anything semblance to R&J or anything Shakespere, I'd shit my pants long ago on account that real life ain't that smarmy. I'd also burned the book that's my life if it turned out to be artsy-fartsy, instead of the real-messy life that it is" Truth be told, why pay all that money to watch a TV series, buy a DVD set, watch the movie 18 billiion times and spend/waste all of that time if it's just like real life? I can just go and people watch at the local mall. Actually much more fun and cheaper.
Movie don't have to have a happy ending, I agree - I do hate all of these Hollywood soppy smoppy kiss-kiss endings - find anything about Terry Gilliam's struggle in getting Brazil to the theatre the way "he wanted it" for reference. In any case, I digress. It could be a reflection of some human condition, but it shouldn't just merely mimic it - that would be boring. It should disect it and have me experience it a different way, make me learn and realize something. Simply mimicking real life, killing off people just to make me feel something exactly the way I would feel it is sort of a cop-out, sort of cheap shot. Personally, I enjoy escapist type of entertainment that has absolutely nothing like real life, I like my heroes to be able to do the impossible, to deftly and skillfully suspend my disbelieve while at the same time keeping me guessing on what's coming next. Yeah, movies are pretty formulaic as you see more of them, nothing is that original anyways; so why not "surprise" you a bit by off'ing a couple of characters for cheap thrill.
Best of all, I like movies with hope. Hope that the human kind can actually do something about with all of this crap that represents these real life human condition. Hope that we can change and rid ourselves of dictators and murderers; and maybe all of these pettiness that we have to swim in everyday. Hope that we can strive and shape the world around us to be something better, something grander. No, not a happy ending, just something to look forward to instead of a cheap reminder of what miserable existence we toil in day-in and day-out, that 800 years from now we are just as petty, as people die for the same crappy cheap reasons, that nothing will ever change and that none of this miserable existence makes any difference.
Quote:
Originally posted by Tallgrrl:
do yourself a favour: read something. start with "romeo & juliet". or see "shakespere in love".
don't hate. appreciate.
"take me, sir. take me hard." -- zoe
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i was soo socked when wash and book died! Why? is also my question. and what the heck is books "sercret"? now im completely sad. disappointed:
"some people juggle geese."
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What! no fireflyflan thong?
trying saying that 10 times...
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CHIWETEL EJIOFOR (THE OPERATIVE) and BOOK are the same character. Oh wait ... nevermind.
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Just saw the movie for the first time. Not the last.
Fireflygal, I'm sorry Joss's dramatic decision has hurt you so badly. Believe me, I understand. Perhaps not entirely agree, but understand.
Okay, where I'm coming from. Months ago I accidentally read a spoiler about Book and Wash's deaths -- some fool on another thread who hadn't properly spoilerized his test. I wanted to burn my eyes out. Knew I couldn't talk to my wife and daughter about it, ever. Tried to convince myself that I'd been punk'ed by some prevaricator. No such luck.
And since my wife had to leave on business for the weekend (no choice, but she'll see it first thing Monday) I can't even talk about it with her now.
My daughter accepted Book's death as a logical necessity (to show The Operative's ruthlessness), but is urinated as hell about Wash. But...
She also feels that it made the crew's peril at the end much more real to her -- she was worried as hell that Simon or Zoe -- or anyone-- was going to die too. A worry that spoiler spared me. Damn its hide.
Y'see, that spoiler affected my enjoyment of the film two ways -- one, it left me waiting for the moment of each death--but worse, it let me relax about the others!.
But... Look,I was worried that Serenity herself was gone forever--that crash landing seemed like damage beyond repair. But credit the late Mr. Universe with keeping a well equipped and supplied facility.
I thought one more friend was gone. Instead, Serenity still flies.
Had the TV show survived, the plot would probably not have reached the BDM's point until late in the second season -- what I've just seen is effectively a three-part season's end cliffhanger and resolution. Had we been able to share that extra one-and-a-half seasons with Book and Wash, perhaps we'd feel better about this. Perhaps not.
I'll miss my good friends, Wash and Book, but there are still more stories to be told in the 'Verse, and I hope Joss has the chance to tell them.
"She's tore up plenty -- but she'll fly true." -- Zoë Warren
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Someone mentioned Trek, and then I realized there's another sci-fi movie where something quite analogous happened, Star Trek II and the death of Spock. As I remember there was a similar outcry from the fans, with numerous complaints. Say what you want, but I think Joss handled these deaths much better.
In Trek you knew it was going to happen. They built it up and made it glaringly obvious. This gets you prepared and lets you have a big emotional response when it happens. I think Serenity's deaths have a less obvious impact when they happen since it is so sudden. You go into shock over it and try to deny it. But, it worms into you and eventually you have to accept it. It has a stronger effect on the tone of the movie and makes it feel like a real event, not a stage production or something tacked onto the movie to have a big finish.
Of course the ultimate silliness of Trek was revealed when Spock came back. If they could have stayed true and left him dead I would have greater respect for that series. We'll see if Joss can stay away from that.
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My husband and I and my 2 boys (ages 12 and 15)went to see the movie yesterday. We are huge Firefly fans and eagerly anticipated this film. The movie delivered in so many ways, with its witty dialogue,great action, and portrayal of the characters. We wished for more screen time for some of the characters, but recognized the limitations of a film to do that.
Book's death was painful and dissapointing. My younger son leaned over and whispered, "But now we'll never know his story". I had to agree, but we were still able to enjoy the rest of the movie, up until Wash's death. After that, we were just shell-shocked.
Wash was my boys' favorite character. He made them laugh, and made them see that you can have value and contribute without necessarily being in the thick of every fight. The ride home in the car was quiet and subdued. When we got home, my 15-year old said, "I feel like we're all grieving". And we were.
I have to agree with the originator of this thread. Both deaths were uneccessary, but Wash's, especially hit hard, because he is the heart and soul and humor of the ship. I also loved his relationship with Zoe, and the fact that they were polar opposites and yet soulmates. I had hoped that they would explore that more. Now, even if they do, in a flashback, or something, it will be bittersweet because we will know that it ended in a horrible way, much too soon.
I agree with another poster who said that he goes to the movies to escape reality, and that if he wants to be sad and depressed, he can just turn on the news. I went to see this movie because I love Firefly, and its characters. ALL of it's characters. I fully expected them all to survive, and I don't think it made a better movie because two of them didn't. It made a sadder movie.
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This is starting to remind me of the outcry that erupted after Joss killed off Tara on BtVS. You didn't like the deaths, big freaking deal. Joss is free to do whatever he wants with his characters, and, like it or not, both Wash and Book's deaths serve a purpose (Wash's shows us just how senseless death can be, and also shows us the depth of his relationship with Zoe [quite frankly, Wash's death is the first time we EVER see a chink in her 'ice-woman' armor], and Book's not only serves the story, but is, IMO, handled very well and is actually a pretty good way for the character to go out).
I wouldn't have killed off Wash or Book were I writing the movie, but then, I'm not Joss, and I accept that he'll give his stories less-than-happy endings if it suits him and/or if he thinks it'll serve the story he wants to tell better (which, IMO, both of these deaths do).
Take my love
Take my land
Take me where I cannot stand
I don't care
I'm still free
You can't take the sky from me
Take me out to the black
Tell 'em I ain't comin' back
Burn the land and boil the sea
You can't take the sky from me
There's no place I can be
Since I've found Serenity
But you can't take the sky from me
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Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:
Understood on the greater good thing but my deal is that he could do ANYTHING he wanted with those characters and a greater good could have been found with all of them alive.
Not a Buffy fan, so can't compare but I daresay Joss could have set Willow down the magical path without a death. He's a writer, no death, character takes a different path.
I hate to disagree, but no, Joss cannot do "ANYTHING." Sometimes, a writer must go where the characters and plot takes him. Homer could not have saved Hector. If he had, we would not still be reading the Iliad, because the book would have been untrue. Dickens could not have saved Sydney Carton.
The deaths of Book and Wash were sad, but what would have been infinitely worse is if Mal took on the Alliance and the Reavers and didn't lose something in the process. Why? Because it would have been untrue. Because it would have made the movie something different than what it was supposed to be. It would have become just another ridiculous film where the goodguys take on the world and never ever get wounded.
There was a price to pay for this mission. One of the themes of the show has been the costs of doing what is right. Mal has been wrestling with these costs since he brought River and Simon onboard.
It was part of the unnamed assassin's character that he go after Haven. It was part of Book's character that he fight an impossible battle instead of hide. Add the two together, and it would have been untrue for Book to have come out of that alive.
With Wash -- it didn't have to be Wash, but the whole crew is ready to die against the Reavers (and there are like five billion of them). With all we know about the Reavers, wouldn't we find it a touch unconvincing that seven people faced all of them and came out basically without a scratch?
They are important deaths. They are not the deaths we wanted, but there is a certain amount of realism in this show and movie that helped make it great. Not everyone gets a great death. And I would have been sorely disappointed if this movie was just another action film where the heroes do the impossible and everything turns their way.
That's not what I was looking for here.
Thank goodness I didn't get that.
-Paul Lytle
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There's nothing i can say that hasn't already been said.
I was going to mention a few things, but really, there's no need. I loved the movie. Everything about it. It hurt, but i loved it.
Some disagree. That's how it goes, i guess. I can, however, say that i'm somewhat glad to see such wildly varying opinions; if what Joss has done can bring out such emotions, then by my reckoning he's done something right.
EDIT: PLYTLE, you said it wonderfully.
"Oh, I was born, a six-gun in my hand. Behind a gun I'll make my final stand."
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I wish I could've gone into the movie not having seen the series. Got in fresh so to speak. I would've had a detached idea on how good this movie is. And as a newbie, it wouldn't have been a slap in the face that, at least for me and the 5 browncoats with me, detracted from the movie.
As a newbie, they were relatively miinor characters and as a newbie, it would have been just a step in the plot.
Here's the problem. I'm not a newbie. I've invested too much time in these charaters to see them...cast off with such ease.
I felt cheated as did the other 5 with me. Cheated my the manner by which they were dispatched. Cheated by the stories left untold.
I hate to say this but any story from here on will be like driving the car with 3 wheels.A wheel is missing and I can't see it being replaced. The "spare" will never messure up.
Joss pulled a George Lucas.
For the record I did like the movie, but I didn't love it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by safeat2nd:
Here's the problem. I'm not a newbie. I've invested too much time in these charaters to see them...cast off with such ease.
I felt cheated as did the other 5 with me. Cheated my the manner by which they were dispatched. Cheated by the stories left untold.
Isn't that the point? Death cheats us. We don't get to hear the stories from those of us who have died.
Joss is telling us something about death here. That's a story, he's telling a story that maybe you weren't expecting, but almost definitely don't want to hear. Maybe it doesn't make it your kind of movie, but the more I think about it the greater my appreciation.
People react different ways to loss, anger and rejection are a couple of them. Since Joss wrote the story he's the one responsible for the loss. Don't let yourself think that it's as casual or as cold-hearted as you might think, there's a point beyond the immediate emotional impact.
Personally I'd be delighted if this is the only time any of us have to deal with death, but it won't be.
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I haven't read all of the replies here, so excuse me if I repeat something someone else has said.
I'm torn between what I saw last night and the reality that Mr. Whedon must have faced when putting this movies together.
I find it hard to believe that he would arbitrarily kill off 2 of the core characters. It is more likely that Mr. Glass and Tudyk opted not to continue with the francise (if we can call it one), and Mr. Whedon was forced to write in the deaths.
The deaths of these 2 characters has affected me, and I truly wish they did not have to happen.
That said, I feel that the movie is up to, if not beyond Mr. Whedon's standards.
I'm not one to sit around and nit pick, River's backstory was OK, tho it did diverge from the series somewhat. But I don't care about the little stuff, I enjoyed the movie, hard emotions and all. I intend to see it again, and will buy the DVD when it's released.
I hope the movie does well enough to warrant a sequel and/or a series. I would gladly watch either.
In the end, however, I will sorely miss Book and Wash, and hope that we see them visit in some future movie or show. ( it occurs to me that a sequel that speaks to Book's past would make a helluva movie. And the appearance of Wash's twin wouldn't bother me a bit.)
Worfgzr
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Well... they've got your $54 + $185, that's all's needed. You don't *have* to love it.
Back to my cheap people watching at the airport.
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I am "half newbie" so I’m unsure if my opinion matters or not, but… 
My family of 7, discovered Firefly via the SciFi channel. Before the third episode aired we’d saved up and ordered the DVDs from Amazon. This DVD set has had more viewing in our home than any others: Ever. I hit the net (& this site) and read oodles of info, felt like I’d caught up a bit and enjoyed Firefly even more, and Wow! Look, a movie! I was excited, until….
I went looking for spoilers for two reasons:
1)Commentary from the creator about this Not being Firefly – loud red alert going off with That statement
2)I was curious about what folks who saw the bloggers preview experienced.
I’m over 40, was also around during the original Star Trek & remember loosing faith as the movies came along. I read spoilers for Serenity with Hope but what I thought were realistic expectations. When I read about Book & Wash I cried - just reading it in a synopsis did that to me. The creator of this 'verse scored real from me; give the man an apple. I've not seen Mr. Whedon’s other material, so I have only the Firefly shows to base my impression on and uh, I expected different.
On my Firefly DVDs, I see BDHs surviving incredible (fantastic) odds. A Good Day meant you were still flying. The *hope* in these shows, the preciousness of love in a battered ‘verse & its ability to heal even the most broken IN time, the essentialness of Family - however you create it (whether it’s 9 folks on a boat or a moma and about 40 ranch hands or a whorehouse); even the ability to Take your freedom on your own terms, not wait for it to be given to you spoke to me. I do the job & I get paid translated, with mirth, to my life. I don’t back up to the paycheck, I work hard & I get paid & I take care of me & mine & others in need the best I can. Does that make me a BDH? Maybe my heart needs to believe that a little too much in My Reality.
Perhaps if I'd known more about Mr. Whedon I never would have watched Firefly. But I am thankful for my ignorance in this regard. I love fantasy. FANTASY: unreal with a twist of possible enough to hold my interest and connect me to characters. Life is challenging enough & one Heck of an Adventure but I watch TV & movies to escape or enhance the challenge. There’s room for folks like me in the ‘verse, truly, or at least there was on Firefly.
In fairness to Mr. Whedon though, Firefly was cancelled. Maybe the Bigger Picture Reason was the fantasy factor? Heaven knows everything lately is about ‘reality’ until you almost choke on it. As I understood it there was a vision for Bigger, Bolder, More Realistic portrayal for Serenity. It seems it was fulfilled. Folks who have done their utmost to support the Movie got what was promised: A movie with certain characters by a certain creator that was a more realistic continuation of adventures in a certain ‘verse.
I find folks who are hurt or angry saying they will Support the Franchise not much different than those of us who lollopped along with Trek/ Paramount doing the same thing. But, being a bit older & less free with my time, dollars & affections, I’m sorry. No one gets to brutalize my heart for a cause or a franchise or just so I can call myself Browncoat or ask me to swallow a more realistic story arc so a sequel that Might include these folks Might be made….
Like uh, look I ‘might’ have swampland to sell ya. But first, buy this pile of jagged, sharp rocks that will cut you as you carry them away(serenity) so I can use that money to create a path to the swamp(sequel) where there might be swampland(third movie)… OK? – who would Buy that? (except for Congress :: grin :: )
Serenity cannot take the sky (Firefly) from me. Enjoy the more realistic journey, those with the heart to bear the cost. Those who do not - I can assure you that time does heal the ache. I watch Kirk and Crew these days with the same enjoyment as the old days & my children manage to enjoy it too. Remember, the Firefly 'verse is still shiny even if Serenity is dark & more real than some of us wil
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Quote:
Originally posted by frunk:Quote:
Originally posted by safeat2nd:
Here's the problem. I'm not a newbie. I've invested too much time in these charaters to see them...cast off with such ease.
I felt cheated as did the other 5 with me. Cheated my the manner by which they were dispatched. Cheated by the stories left untold.
Isn't that the point? Death cheats us. We don't get to hear the stories from those of us who have died.
Joss is telling us something about death here. That's a story, he's telling a story that maybe you weren't expecting, but almost definitely don't want to hear. Maybe it doesn't make it your kind of movie, but the more I think about it the greater my appreciation.
Don't mean to be trite, but maybe if you didn't know already that "death cheats us" and needed to be told. Maybe the rest of America, who likes their primetime reality TV so much, needed to be told this. But me hopes that most people above children age knows a little bit above death.
Personally, it's a waste of celluloid to try and punctuate the movie this cheaply - resorting to using a cheapo dramatic device just to carry the plot along and make the rest of the movie "believable". phooey. We weren't cheated by death, we were cheated by a silly simple-minded dramatic ploy designed to swing the emotions of the fan. That's it, no one else watching it would even feel the same way - only a fan would. It's not an intellectual exercise or an allegory of real life - just a cheap movie schtick.
You are right, I have learnt me something. I've learnt that there are never an exception to "Hollywood is just Hollywood as ever - formulaic whenever possible, cheap emotion swings with asanine dramatic devices + orchestra music when everything else fails. Oh wait, I already knew that, I just had false hope otherwise.
Quote:
Originally posted by frunk:
People react different ways to loss, anger and rejection are a couple of them. Since Joss wrote the story he's the one responsible for the loss. Don't let yourself think that it's as casual or as cold-hearted as you might think, there's a point beyond the immediate emotional impact.
Personally I'd be delighted if this is the only time any of us have to deal with death, but it won't be.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Don't mean to be trite, but maybe if you didn't know already that "death cheats us" and needed to be told. Maybe the rest of America, who likes their primetime reality TV so much, needed to be told this. But me hopes that most people above children age knows a little bit above death.
The point is that people aren't being told this, they are feeling it. They feel cheated, like something is lost. They are reacting to it just like a real death. And people keep on blaming Joss for death, instead of looking at why they are reacting so.
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Quote:
Originally posted by MikeyMo:
Great review up on AICN, and the guy spends most of it talking about Joss's decision to off Book and Wash.Quote:
----------------------------------------------
Serenity is everything Firefly always seemed to want to be but never was. Serenity is everything it should be and then some. Serenity is real honest to god Western that puts you right on the edge of your seat praying for someone, anyone to come out alive, and never promising that that’s actually going to happen. Serenity hits everything it aims at – it’s continuously funny, even in the most dramatic of sequences; it’s heartbreaking at the most unexpected of times; and it’s chock full of action and real danger every step of the way.
Hear hear, my friend.
The best thing about this site is the intelligent, civil discussion. Having read other thoughts -- and after seeing the movie for a 2nd time where I could pay more detailed attention, I am going revise my opinion against Book's and Wash's deaths.
I am still sad that they died but I now think they were dramatically necessary. For the plot, Book's death forces Mal to make his decision. For emotional impact, watch how each of the death's affects the other characters. And, how they affect the audience! My 13 year old daughter was crying when Wash died. And, to paraphrase the Operative, they were good deaths. Book had just shot down the Alliance ship (I would have liked to see this but it would have distracted from the main story) and Wash had just done the most amazing piece of flying in his career.
I think Joss pulled out all stops to make it good and complete in itself because this movie may be all we are going to get (fingers crossed). I came to Firefly via DVD then watched Angel and Buffy where plenty of major characters died (how did Buffy fans make it from the end of Season 5 to Season 6?). If Firefly had continued, we probably would've seen character deaths, especially if there had been such a major confrontation with the Alliance.
So, I am going to go with the "Trust Joss" school and do remember that all 9 actors are supposed signed for 3 movies. I doubt Joss would do simple flashbacks, he'll do something that we won't see coming. And that's why we watch.
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I've been a Browncoat since before anyone described themselves as that. My forum name (and names in various MMORPG's and various unrelated forums) is homage to my favorite character Book. Book dies without his story being told!!! Herr Whedon mentions that it will be covered in a sequel--how? As a big flashback or more likely as a seesaw flashback current affair. Sorry while that could be good, it completely eliminates the ability to have Book essentially 'answer' questions. So Joss can 'artistically' leave Book and his Neo-Jesuit Monk Order still enigmatically vague. I'm already feeling unsatisfied.
Not to mention that Serenity appeared to have some concessions to all the short visioned sorts that swear up and down that Book had to be ex-Alliance Soldier/Police/etc accounting for all of his combat training with no training or knowledge coming after he joined said religious order(and within the past 7 years too--he's in his late 50's ok?!?). Sorry, Joss that background has already BEEN DONE in scifi, westerns, even modern genres. That's the problem everyone expects that and when you go that way then one becomes cliche.
I'm still hoping that my theory (which I no of no other to promote it before me) of Book being a long standing (20+ years) of a religious order that's function is more than the futuristic equivalent of transcribing texts. Whether it's information gathering (in the true spy/agent/operative sense), more aggressive defense of the faith and/or members of the faith (i.e. Warrior Monks), church problem solvers, or some more convoluted purpose. But alas that won't be truly answerable without a living member of the order that's also forthcoming--not easily managed with Book dead.
As for Wash dying, I'm a little more mixed. For one he died after they landed (to validate his flying skills) partially for shock value as much as anything. It does give Zoe an even more complicated emotional landscape, which is a good thing. Does eliminate the super pilot Deus ex Machina feeling that some sorts might have had (not I, as I have met crazy good real world pilots). The fact that he frequently had some of the best humorous lines is also a disappointment.
I do appreciate that people have to die to establish the credibility of risk. Also because of that idiot notion that arose from formal analysis of literature that unless the protagonists suffer and die a story isn't good. My feeling now is the same in regard to that second claim, get over it! I mean English professors would say that any work that doesn't have major tragedy is written poorly but the same prose capped with a sentence stating that they all died unhappily ever after would be validated in that mind set. That same idea pervades critical movie analysis--people must be tortured, struggling, and (hopefully?) die to validate a story as a 'classic'--writing, acting and directing are actually not relevant to this large growing swath of story critics. The death to validate danger is definitely relevant here though, I'm just bummed out about it.
Browncoat Monk
I don't care what you believe in as long as you BELIEVE!
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I doubt people needed to be told this. These things happen in *real life* and people experience it every single day. There are a billion different religions devoted to the reflection and explanation for this. This wasn't any lengthy expose or study on the topic, it was a 5 second sequence in a movie as a cheap ploy to swing emotions, cheap thrills that cost me $11 bucks + parking is not appreciated.
Quote:
Originally posted by frunk:Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Don't mean to be trite, but maybe if you didn't know already that "death cheats us" and needed to be told. Maybe the rest of America, who likes their primetime reality TV so much, needed to be told this. But me hopes that most people above children age knows a little bit above death.
The point is that people aren't being told this, they are feeling it. They feel cheated, like something is lost. They are reacting to it just like a real death. And people keep on blaming Joss for death, instead of looking at why they are reacting so.
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...I've read some of the posts and everything and don't know what to say. I agree with the original poster. I felt betrayed/mad/sick over the BDM. I can forgive many of the changes to the story line and some of the charaters, but to kill off two of our beloved crew? OK. Books death was atleast one with a point. It mad us mad. But he went down fighting to protect those he cared for. Wash....? That was just for shock value. We already had no love for the reavers. The ship was down safely (heck it would have been better had he died in the crash landing of the ship.) As it is/was he died for shock value. Did it shock? Heck yes it did, but was it good? No. Don't go on with the whole 'but in real life' crap either. In real life people die. Good people, bad people, everybody at some point. But I don't want to pay to see it. I wanted/expected/paid to see the rapier like wit of Wash. The wisdom (usually street) of Book. The poise of Inara. The sweetness of Kaylee. The awkward bookish Simon. The flippant devil-may-care Mal. (Yes, I know Joss wanted Mal "darker" than he was on tv, but still.) They weren't in this movie.
I am glad that it was called "Serenity". That way I can still be a Firefly Fan.
Firefly Rocks. Serenity sucks those rocks.
When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not screaming and yelling like everyone else in the car he was driving.
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I'm not certain how I feel about the movie yet. And much of it has to do with these characters' deaths. Certainly, it was a surprise. I'm just not sure what the movie gained with these two deaths. Certainly, I accepted the gravity of the situation, and The Operative's brutality/coldness really came alive.
But it's a credit to the writing/acting that this happened for me well before either of my favorite ship buddies got it. I will admit that Wash's demise made for a profound punctuation mark what was an amazing and exciting sequence. It did make me (and several of my friends) worry that Joss was going to kill off the whole crew. Ikes! A body count does raise the stakes.
I'm less convinced about Book's death. It's grand that he brought down the raiding ship, but it made his character seem too much like a plot device and not the intricate, enigmatic and amazing character we'd come to recognize from the series. My reaction was, "Aw, just like Obi-Wan, only way less confusing/touching." It would be breaking the mold to have the wise old mentor survive. It almost seemed like it was done intentionally to upset Firefly fans' expectations as his character certainly wasn't developed enough for first-time viewers to feel much of an attachment.
For that matter, I worry that many of the characters really didn't get much quality time on the bigger screen. Oh some fantastic dialogue, granted, but not the dimensionality we'd seen the writers accomplish on the series with only one or two lines. And I found I missed that. Mayhaps repeat viewings will clear up how I feel about it.
Incidentally, to those who felt these deaths compared to the death of Spock, well I'd have to say you're wrong. I mean for me. I've watched ST: II dozens of times and every time I tear up at the end. Watching this film, my reaction was more like, "No, dammit. Why the hell'd you go and do that?!"
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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
I doubt people needed to be told this. These things happen in *real life* and people experience it every single day. There are a billion different religions devoted to the reflection and explanation for this. This wasn't any lengthy expose or study on the topic, it was a 5 second sequence in a movie as a cheap ploy to swing emotions, cheap thrills that cost me $11 bucks + parking is not appreciated.
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Given the freedom to do so, anarchy will result in an organic organization unto itself.
I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. You thought it was a cheap ploy, I see it as a theme that Joss keeps using and people keep misinterpreting.
As for dwelling in depth on it, Joss did that spectacularly with The Body, one of the best Buffy episodes. There wasn't time or space to do that in the movie, but it isn't like Joss couldn't.
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Some part of me just thinks Joss can't help but kill people in loving relationships, but that's me being a curmudgeon. The first time he did it it was poignant, now it is getting kind of tired.
The rest of me was still pleased with it. At least the second time I saw the film I was pleased. And Book's story could still haunt the crew in the next movie.
And hell, zoe could be pregnant. Giving us a little Wash, plenty of room for family and flashbacks. I'll trust Joss, even though I think wrecking the beautiful dynamic of wash/zoe would have ruined the series (I really thought Buffy was a bathos train wreck after Tara died.) But it will serve well as a building block for the next two movies. We just have to make sure we get two more movies for Joss to make it work.
-Eli
If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.
www.civil-unrest.com
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Maybe Old Dog needs new tricks... Time to put that inventive mind to work again. Killing off characters after awhile gets people to say and think "Why bother watching, he's up to his old stage trick of *building you up* and *tearing you down*"...
After awhile, people just stop coming and you are known as the "guy who kills off his main characters just to get a cheap thrill"...
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Given the freedom to do so, anarchy will result in an organic organization unto itself.
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Very few things in our lives are certain. One of those things is that we WILL all die. And in almost every case there will be more stories we'll have wished we could be a part of. That's a part of what makes death so sad.
So would the world be a better place if no one ever died?
It's a big question, and a bit unfair because we aren't talking about life, nor are we talking about everyone--just Wash. But even considering those things, I think the answer can be applied to your question.
The answer is no. That we have limited time on this world is what gives our actions weight. What do we choose to do in the blink of an instant we're alive? Does anything say more about us? I don't think so.
Wash was a good person, and he died a good person.
You speak of Serenity like you want it to be just an artificial construction. And you're right. It IS an artifical construction--thats the truth of it. But the Truth of it, for me, is that somewhere in the multiverse--or whatever you want to call it--it is a REAL thing. Joss maybe stumbled across it, and had the ability to write it down and direct it. But he can't just bend the story to do whatever he wants.
The story is real, and in the story people died. Reavers killed Wash, not Joss. And yes that view probably makes me crazy, but that's the way I see things.
Yes, there is that interview where he says that he wrote it without anyone dying and then choose to kill people so that newbies would believe it. Yes, I achknowledge it. You can continue to rail against him with that interview snippet on your side. But it doesn't matter to me. I don't need to know how he wrote it, I don't need to know the process, I don't need to know any of that. Nor honestly do I want to. You kill a story when you look at its insides to closely. I know, I'm an English major right now and I've seen just that happen time and time again.
What I do need to know is what I said above about death. That is what truly informs the meaning of Wash's death, not as a device in a work of fiction, but as something that happened in the world.
One last thought, and if you've been with me through this entire soapbox type speech I appreciate it. You mention a few times how Joss claims to want to create things that people love, and ask how that jives with these deaths. I don't know about you, but in my life everything I've loved has not always been what made me happy. Happiness is all well and good, but I think sometimes we lose sight of the fact that happiness alone is meaningless. If we were always happy, would it even matter? If it were never dark, would the sun be so beautiful, or if the sun never came up would the moon mean the same thing? I cried when Wash died--it did not make me happy, but I still loved Serenity. Why? Because the contrast of that sadness with the happiness in the finale of the story made both emotions all the stronger. Simon and Kaylee finally together, Inara realizing she should stay on the ship, Mal and River bonding, the sound of rain on the ship's hull, and the beauty of that moment when it breaks out of the clouds. These moments are stronger BECAUSE Wash died, and because of these moments of happiness the sad moments are even sadder. One scene in paticular breaks my heart every single time, Mal tells Zoe to get the ship squared away and you can see in Zoe's eyes that she just doesn't care anymore. It's a horrible moment, but it's a moment that matters. That SAYS something about what it means to be human.
And so yes, I love Serenity even though it breaks my heart at some moments.
Thanks for sharing your views, and thank you even more for listening to my rambling thoughts on the subject.
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I really don't understand why you are so banged up by this fireflygal. Admittedly, I am a new Firefly fan. Serentity (the movie) was my first exposure and frankly, I'm hooked. But I've been a Joss Whedon fan for along time. I've been a fan of Buffy since Day 1. I know this is a shock to some of you who have been here a while, but there was a Joss before there was Firefly.
Throught the seven very successful seasons of Buffy, several beloved characters died. Heck, Buffy died twice (though she came back). Miss Calendar. Tara (which was heart wrenching). But it made the story a story.
I also enjoy reading fantasy genre books, mostly set in the D&D realms (Forgotten Relams or DragonLance). I love R.A. Salvatore's writing, but the fact that Drizzt never ever dies makes it SO unbelievable. Yes, I know... it's fiction... FANTASY fiction at that. I'd still like a feeling of excitement and intrigue. Sadly, the death of a major character is sometimes the best way to do this.
As a final note... Joss doesn't owe you anything. Joss' style of writing and bringing his characters to life is why I (and others) love his work. He owes you no more than Lucas owes us a reason for that damned Jar Jar. It is what it is...
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I apologize if I repeat any of the points above. I honestly tried to read through the whole thread, but I got lost around the minor flame wars.
Why Wash? In a weekly TV show, the passionate but rocky relationship between Wash and Zoe was excellent story material. In a feature film (or even three feature films) it's time that can't be spared. Once you take away that dynamic, Wash offers comic relief, he offers innocence, he offers heart - but he doesn't offer dramatic momentum. He'd just be along for the ride, keeping Zoe happy and human. Despite posts to the contrary, I doubt that RL actor issues had anything to do with the decision. Wash was a pretty obvious choice.
Why Book? He had so many hidden secrets to explore. When are we going to hear his story?
I think it is entirely possible that (details aside) Serenity *is* Shepherd Book's story. It makes sense to me that Book may have once been very much like the Operative, and that at some point in his life, Book came to the same epiphany that Mal forced on the Operative. Joss doesn't have to tell Book's story, because (for all intents and purposes) it is already there.
Why anyone? Well, this has been explored rather thoroughly, but believe it or not, I think I may have something new to add. Other than the character deaths, what's the single biggest complaint Browncoats have had about the BDM? Most of the ensemble cast we love had to take a back seat.
With 9 major characters and only two hours to work with, how could the movie have dedicated the same screen time we've come to expect for character interaction and development? As much as we'd all love to see a two hour episode of Firefly on the big screen, a feature film is a fundamentally different creature. You don't get to see the slow and intricate growth; you get to see the defining moments of a larger story. By dispensing with two (albeit beloved) characters, we have the opportunity in future movies to spend more time with the survivors.
Just a thought. Or three.
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Here is what I find ironic about the "for the newbies" issues.
Who gets more impant from it? Who does it mean more to?
Have you gone back to the serise and looked at any of the other episodes after this?
The tears I did have, came not in the move, but watching Serenity again where Inara and Book are talking in her shuttle and he says "I am not even sure I am on the right ship."
I can't fault Joss for making me feel. I just wish he had more time to give more catharsys.
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I agree with Sefinia in that I see River as being the next pilot for Serenity.
She'll finally be able to 'pull her weight' as well as being able to form a bond with the ship that Wash, while he was an awesome pilot, could never beat.
I'm basing this thought on what happened with River in 'Objects in Space' along with the fact that Joss rarely does anything without a reason. I highly doubt that he killed Wash just to appease the newbies--I'm sure that's a part of it, but he's going to do something with his death. What better way to introduce River to being a pilot than sliding her in after the original pilot (who, for emotional response, was well loved by the fans) dies. Why waste that kind of situation in a story? If you have to kill a character off, make it hurt. Any GOOD storyteller makes it hurt.
I felt everything you felt when Wash died, the pain and the betrayal. It wasn't until the second time that I saw the movie that I realized that there might be a reason. If it genuinely makes you feel better, send off your letter.
But something to keep in mind is that you never owned the characters. They weren't formed in your head, you didn't write the dialogue or the action or the situation. You supported them, and you loved them, but you don't know what they were meant for. None of us do, except for Joss Whedon. We're just along for the ride. Telling him "How dare you kill OUR character, you stupid writer--we're your bread and butter!" (which is what the letter comes off as, rather than an honest question) seems very wrong to me. You had enough faith to see the show on this far, why not have enough faith to believe that there might possibly be a reason for Wash's death? Or at least take a tone slightly less on the arrogant side in your letter. It it probable that his character was always meant to be temporary.
Perhaps you'll get an answer to your 'calling out' letter if there are sequels.
--Kat
"I'm so hip I can't see over my pelvis!"
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Quote:
Perhaps you'll get an answer to your 'calling out' letter if there are sequels.
--Kat
"I'm so hip I can't see over my pelvis!"
I think this is where some of the hurt and anger may be coming from: we're dependent on a sequel for the catharsis of seeing how Zoe and the crew deals with Wash, and to a lesser extent Book, dying. We're dependent on the production company giving us permission so to speak to see the next chapter. If Firefly were still on the air, this probably would have been the season two finale, but we would know that in season three we'd see more about how teh characters moved on and dealt with the pain, and then we could as well(I realize this still assumes a bigger power is involved, but let's also assume Firefly was a huge hit by now and the network would never think of canceling until the story was done.
)Right now we have to wait probably two more years to find out what happens next. That's a lot of time for nail biting and worry about if it will get made at all.
Lady Shelley
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.redhawke.org
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Quote:
Perhaps you'll get an answer to your 'calling out' letter if there are sequels.
--Kat
"I'm so hip I can't see over my pelvis!"
I think this is where some of the hurt and anger may be coming from: we're dependent on a sequel for the catharsis of seeing how Zoe and the crew deals with Wash, and to a lesser extent Book, dying. We're dependent on the production company giving us permission so to speak to see the next chapter. If Firefly were still on the air, this probably would have been the season two finale, but we would know that in season three we'd see more about how teh characters moved on and dealt with the pain, and then we could as well(I realize this still assumes a bigger power is involved, but let's also assume Firefly was a huge hit by now and the network would never think of canceling until the story was done.
)Right now we have to wait probably two more years to find out what happens next. That's a lot of time for nail biting and worry about if it will get made at all.
Lady Shelley
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.redhawke.org
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