are fans boycotting the movie? (major spoilers)

POSTED BY: XanderHarris
UPDATED: Thursday, October 20, 2005 16:27
VIEWED: 21042
PAGE 1 of 1

XANDERHARRIS

Friday, October 7, 2005 3:42 PM

because of wash's death? i mean seriously? it was upseting....but still....

I saved Latin, what did you ever do?

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL

Friday, October 7, 2005 3:45 PM

I gather that that's the case.

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

FIREFLYFAN278

Friday, October 7, 2005 3:46 PM

Yes. Some HUGE fans of the show will not see it if they find out what happened and will not see it again once they find out what happened.

If Josh wanted to do a sequel, he should have thought of that.

SIMONWHO

Friday, October 7, 2005 3:51 PM

Yes, some fans aren't happy about events in the movie and are seemingly happy to leave the 'verse. That's their choice and their right and I for one wish them nothing but the best and hope that they find some soulless, mediocre, unambitious piece of genre schlock that fulfills their every need. Voyager seems to be the obvious choice but you know, it's not like there's a shortage of such unchallenging shows.

BELASERA

Friday, October 7, 2005 4:08 PM

How many times did Harry Kim die, anyway? Is there any sort of conclusive count on that?

Truth be told, I heart Voyager, but I would rather cry through a dozen funerals in the firefly verse than see Janeway pull another time travel/alternate reality stunt.

"I'll be in my bunk."

ANGELICANGEL

Friday, October 7, 2005 4:09 PM

I still saw it even after I knew what happened to Wash, yes I am a little still shocked over it but I still saw the movie again I do plan to see it again next friday (I have to go back to work next week, I loved my week off!)

Angel
My LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/angelicangel06/
FF.net: http://www.fanfiction.net/~angelicangel01

ZOOT

Friday, October 7, 2005 4:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
Yes, some fans aren't happy about events in the movie and are seemingly happy to leave the 'verse. That's their choice and their right and I for one wish them nothing but the best and hope that they find some soulless, mediocre, unambitious piece of genre schlock that fulfills their every need. Voyager seems to be the obvious choice but you know, it's not like there's a shortage of such unchallenging shows.

Ohmigosh! Laughed so much I was nearly sick - nicely put!!!

***************************************

Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
armed.

FIREFLYFAN278

Friday, October 7, 2005 4:18 PM

I'm not "happy to leave the verse". I plan to watch the Firelfy DVD's till they wear out and then buy more.

ANGELICANGEL

Friday, October 7, 2005 4:25 PM

I watched the DVD's this week also! I even just bought the Serenity Novel. I'm still thinking about the Serenity RPG Book. DOes the RPG book have the planets in them?

I'm NOT going to leave the verse anytime soon!

Angel
My LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/angelicangel06/
FF.net: http://www.fanfiction.net/~angelicangel01

EMBERS

Friday, October 7, 2005 4:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zoot:
Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
Yes, some fans aren't happy about events in the movie and are seemingly happy to leave the 'verse. That's their choice and their right and I for one wish them nothing but the best and hope that they find some soulless, mediocre, unambitious piece of genre schlock that fulfills their every need. Voyager seems to be the obvious choice but you know, it's not like there's a shortage of such unchallenging shows.

Ohmigosh! Laughed so much I was nearly sick - nicely put!!!

I think that that is an insignifigant (but annoyingly vocal) minority of the fandom,
I doubt if they are hurting ticket sales at all...
I've gotten loads of friends into 'Firefly'
ALL of them have seen the film
and not one of them objected to the more 'hard edged' tragedy aspects,
but of course they are older and prefer to go to films that a little more serious:
serious both in intent and execution....
and it isn't like we didn't get the humor & romance too.
Personally I felt that this film had it all,
and it was Joss' vision (how much worse if he had compromised and it wasn't a big success, better to go out on what you really believe in).

I think that Joss Whedon created something that was really wonderful,
most of the critics appreciated it,
and I believe the vast majority of the fans appreciate it too.

SEVENPERCENT

Friday, October 7, 2005 4:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fireflyfan278:
I'm not "happy to leave the verse".

Then don't leave it. Go see the movie again, and give the people who are saying you missed something vital a chance to prove their point. You're willing to shell out DVD cash for a new set of series DVD's; spend a quarter of that and see the BDM again. Here's my take on why I think the people in this thread are correct:

If you want boring sci-fi, and boring shows, there's plenty out there. There has never been a single episode of ST(any), SG1, or SGA that has ever kept me on the edge of my seat or in suspense. You know why that is? No tension. Oh, there have been several that were good, beautifully written, powerful episodes, but never any that gave me any real spine-wrenching worry that things weren't going to turn out alright in the end. Serenity did that. After the scene in question, I was on the edge of my seat; I couldn't take my eyes off the screen. What was going to happen next? Were they going to make it? No River, don't go out there, they'll kill you!!!!!!

I see a lot of movies. I'm an English teacher, and I belive in movies as a great way to teach things like plot, setting, oral interpretation, yadda yadda yadda. Serenity had it all. Was I happy about what Whedon did? Gotta say no way. But in a way, he's even greater to me now, because he put all his folks out on the line to deliver his story to us, and some couldn't make it, which makes the movie gripping and heartbreaking.

But, hey, if you want to boycott it, that's your right. But-and I say this not to be mean, but to be true-don't ever sit around and say "they never put anything good on TV anymore, and all the movies they release are crap," because you lost that right. Studios put out junk because people don't want to feel and don't want to think, they just want a bunch of happy zombies at the theater. You can be one if you choose; I choose not to be--Serenity will soar for me again this weekend (my 4th time).

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

MACBAKER

Friday, October 7, 2005 4:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
Yes, some fans aren't happy about events in the movie and are seemingly happy to leave the 'verse. That's their choice and their right and I for one wish them nothing but the best and hope that they find some soulless, mediocre, unambitious piece of genre schlock that fulfills their every need. Voyager seems to be the obvious choice but you know, it's not like there's a shortage of such unchallenging shows.

Yeah, if they wanted "safe" boring story lines where no one dies (or if they do, some techobabble miracle brings them back....hello SPOCK), they should stick with any of the Star Trek series or either of the Stargate shows.

Let's not forget, Joss is famous for killing charaters off, and then finding a way to bring them back. Some have died (Tera, Doyle, Cordy) and stayed dead, but others have returned. Buffy died twice, Spike and Angel died once, and they all came back. Fred died, but the actress playing her continued on the show as Iliria, a demon using Fred's body. This may not really be the end of Wash (maybe he had a twin), but if there isn't any sequels, we'll never find out!

I hated seeing Wash die too (it was shocking and heartbreaking), but his death was reailistic considering the mess they were in the middle of! Now we all know why Reavers are so feared. When they show up, people end up dead! Joss didn't take the safe route, and obviously it has upset many fans, but frankly, safe is boring, and Joss doesn't know how to do boring! If the series had continued, characters would have died! In 14 episodes, every character but Inara had been stabed or shot. Considering the risky lives these characters lived, death was inevitable. In Joss' worlds (like our own) good people die in battle, especially when the stakes are high. In some ways, I hope that Joss doesn't find some clever way to bring Wash back. The realism of Firefly/Serenity is what makes it better than Star Trek!

What Joss does so well, is show how deaths effect and change the remaining characters. I want a sequel, to see how Mal deals with the death of one of his crew. Will that loss make him want to hold onto Inara even more, or will it make him want to keep more distance from a relationship like Zoe had with Wash. I want to see how Zoe copes with the loss of the love of her life. Will it harden her, or force her to rethink her loyalties to Mal (who's very actions led them into the situation where Wash was killed), or will she be even more protective of the remaining members of her shipboard family. I want to see how River develops, and how well she learns to pilot Serenity. I also can't wait to see how the relationship of the new couple, Simon and Kaylee develops. Will they have a soulmate relationship like Zoe and Wash did, or will their journey be more rocky? Wash's death, while heartbreaking, is realistic. What's important at this point, is how those he left behind deal with his death. I for one want to see that!

I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.

XANDERHARRIS

Friday, October 7, 2005 4:48 PM

FIREFLYFAN278

Friday, October 7, 2005 4:55 PM

I'm sorry if you think those of us who didn't like certain aspects of the movie are insignificant and annoying.

I do agree that what we saw was probably the collapsed story arch from one or more potential TV seasons rolled up into one movie that Josh saw fit to create as the potential final entry of the verse he had created.

Not knowing whether there will ever be a sequel, he tied up what he saw as loose ends and sent the crew on its way with a sense of finality that can either stand alone as the last piece or be used as a seque into movies or tv shows to come.

In that sense it was well done. Certain parts of it didn't work for me. I don't like action movies in which my heroes die.

For sevenpercent:

You said "to be true-don't ever sit around and say "they never put anything good on TV anymore, and all the movies they release are crap," because you lost that right."

You are incorrect. In my verse, we are all still free to bitch about any BIG DAMN THING we want. Hey, I bought the DVD set and have told everyone who will listen it may be the best TV show EVER MADE. I have the right to do that and I have the right to say I didn't like parts of the movie. And my saying I didn't like parts of the movie doesn't take away my right to free speech.

So "Let's not be excluding people. That'd be rude."

ANANTI

Friday, October 7, 2005 4:59 PM

I've given the whole thing some thought, and I think I understand the reason for the strong reaction among some small groups of people.

It basically comes down to this. The reason why people become fans of the show is because they identify with one or more characters on the show, and the character they identify with the most, almost becomes their avatar on the show.

And because creators only put 9 people on the ship, they cannot incorporate every personality arch type. Which explains why some people simply don't get into the show, they don't find anyone they can really identify with among the crew.

So if a person really identifys with a certain pilot, and thinks of that pilot as their alter-ego on the show, when that person is killed off. Their reaction is going to be different than somebody like me who identifies with another character. For that person, he's going to feel that he's been literally "kicked off the ship", and although for you and me the story can continue because our avatar's story continues, those people felt their story ended, and they are in the same situation as someone who could never get into the show to begin with, for the same reason, nobody to identify with.

That basically is my explanation for the extreme negatvie reaction of some, they literally feel that Joss Whedon has told them to "get off my ship" and kicked into the black abyss of space.

I have a suspicion, though, that should the story continue another character of the same arch type will be introduced to fill the void.

EARLY

Friday, October 7, 2005 5:22 PM

**SPOILERS**

I was really pissed when I first saw it but the more I thought about it the more sense it made. First you gotta expect it if you've ever watched any of Joss' other shows. I mean how many people died in Angel? I didn't watch much Buffy but I know there were some deaths there as well. Now that I've really thought about it not only did someone other than Book need to die (cause he was barely even in the movie) but the way it was done unceromoniously was perfect. When someone dies in real life there is no slow motion drama with sad yet heroic music...they just die. That was well done, yet shocking and so so so so so sad. I still wish it didn't happen but hey, it won't keep me out of the verse.

DOCRAILGUN

Friday, October 7, 2005 5:31 PM

Am I ever with you there. I was unhappy that Wash died, but... people die. It happens. How do people that refuse to have anything to do with Firefly because someone died deal with real life?
SImonWho said:

Quote:
"Yes, some fans aren't happy about events in the movie and are seemingly happy to leave the 'verse. That's their choice and their right and I for one wish them nothing but the best and hope that they find some soulless, mediocre, unambitious piece of genre schlock that fulfills their every need. Voyager seems to be the obvious choice but you know, it's not like there's a shortage of such unchallenging shows."

SEVENPERCENT

Friday, October 7, 2005 5:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fireflyfan278:

For sevenpercent:

You said "to be true-don't ever sit around and say "they never put anything good on TV anymore, and all the movies they release are crap," because you lost that right."

You are incorrect. In my verse, we are all still free to bitch about any BIG DAMN THING we want. Hey, I bought the DVD set and have told everyone who will listen it may be the best TV show EVER MADE. I have the right to do that and I have the right to say I didn't like parts of the movie. And my saying I didn't like parts of the movie doesn't take away my right to free speech.

So "Let's not be excluding people. That'd be rude."

My point was not to be exclusionary, nor did I say you couldn't talk about whatever parts of the movie you did or did not like.

You are doing with that part of my post exactly what you did with the BDM - You're focusing on the literal words in my post you didn't like instead of taking them at their larger meaning.

Are you saying you want good, thrilling sci-fi, or are you saying you want boring, standard junk because it is safe? If you want thrilling stuff, you have to take the good with the bad (like something happening to a major character that you liked). My broad point (which you missed) is that you can't argue that you want bold, engaging movies if you aren't willing to risk it all. If I were to wake up tomorrow and say, "I never want another book that I read to include any real emotional engagement," then I'm in for a very boring read for the rest of my life. But then I also wouldn't be able to complain that the books I'm reading are boring, because I'd have lost the right to, figuratively speaking- I've made my choice, I have to either live with it or change.

Next time, read and think about the whole post before you pull a quote out of context. And think about what is being said in a larger frame of understanding and comprehension of deeper meaning.

Then go see the BDM again and apply those same ideas.

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

JADEHAND

Friday, October 7, 2005 5:57 PM

Fans? Boycotting? These 2 words don't go together. It's okay to be upset if things didn't go well for your favourite character. I wasn't exactly happy, but it worked for me. Actively boycott, and still call yourself a fan? huh.

Yeah, I know what's it's like to have things go poorly for a favourite character. Imagine how fans of Obi-Wan felt in '77. And he never showed up in another SW film.....until the next one. But after that we never saw him again.....'til the next one. But after that he was gone....until the next 3.

I've read that this film was, more or less, season 2 condensed to 2 hours. Also, "all 9 cast are signed for 3 movies and will be back in sequels." I love the idea someone posted earlier (sorry I forgot who) about River just sitting up on the bridge laughing out loud at his jokes, and others being confused. Um..psychic. Not hard to see how they might be around. I know it's not the same. I know it still hurts. But, active boycotting?

Visit WWW.Marillion.Com for a better way to live
"Dreaming the dream that only the sleepless know."

THANATUS

Friday, October 7, 2005 6:08 PM

So...let me see if I got this straight. Because we don't like the gratuitous deaths of major characters (BTW Wash was not my favorite character), and have some issues with this endeavor, we are dithering simpletons and we should find simpler faire for our feeble minds where major characters don't die, right? Like maybe...FIREFLY?!? Let's grasp some perspective here, people. Some people dislike Serenity because it was a cinematic disappointment, not because we're sad that our avatar(?) died. And I think I'm going to hurl if one more person says "(it) had to happen, because that's how it happens in real life. That's reality, man!" I said it on another post (but deleted it to accomodate peoples' squeemishness) and I'll say it again...If Joss wants to show the horrors of war and gunplay, then Jayne's arm is blown off for example. In "real life" you don't take 3 high caliber rounds to the shoulder and walk away with a few small puncture wounds. Show of hands...how many people out there have ever been in combat or had to draw a weapon in fear for their or their mates' lives? So please, let's see these plot devices for what they are...PLOT DEVICES used for shock value. Look I'm sure this will rile some people, and if it does...I appologize. I have no desire to leave this franchise...can we just discuss this movie and work through some possible improvements so that maybe Joss/Universal can get some feedback on what works/what doesn't? Maybe we can have a positive impact on this franchise again. BTW...Active boycotting and/or not even giving Serenity a chance? Lame. Pure and simple.

THANATUS

Friday, October 7, 2005 6:08 PM

sorry...double post

CRUMPY

Friday, October 7, 2005 6:26 PM

Only if they have no imagination. In the movie it has been six months since Jubel Early! So why did Book go to Haven? What happened when Inara left Serenity, did Mal choke? How many battery operated devices has Kaylee worn out? Have Wash and Zoe given up on the idea of kids?
All these and other questions can be answered in Serenity -1 (the prequel?).

"Sir, I think you have a problem with your brain being missing" - Zoe

HKCAVALIER

Friday, October 7, 2005 6:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Are you saying you want good, thrilling sci-fi, or are you saying you want boring, standard junk because it is safe?

False dichotomy. Me, I want good, thrilling, intelligent, character driven sci-fi. Firefly met all these criteria. In spades. Character driven sci-fi, how many times have we even seen such a thing?

If Wash has to die, and I got nothing against the idea in the abstract, as I've noted elsewhere--his death was forshadowed from the beginning of the series every time the credits flashed on his sad eyed smile just as the song hit "...tell them I ain't comin' back"--if he has to die, I say have him die like Boromir in LoTR, don't just have him get randomly speared on the way to Gondor.

My girlfriend doesn't plan to see Serenity again because it was like a big loud two hour trailer and two beloved characters died needlessly. For her, the movie ain't worth the pain. Now, you gotta understand, she ain't squeamish. My girlfriend is so fond of Sean Bean a lesser man'd be jealous and Boromir's her favorite character; but she'll watch Lord of the Rings any day of the week because the movie did justice to her favorite character and she'll cry every time.

All kinds of adventure movies manage to be exciting and thrilling without pointlessly killing a main character. You want to make a huge smash hit, you'll do it with repeat viewing. You bump off a main character suddenly, randomly, twenty minutes from the end, you're gonna lose some repeat viewers. You just will.

The problem comes down to this. There are two entirely different arguments here. Argument #1: Is the fact that Wash died good or bad? This is the one that fan's address the way you've addressed it here, Seven. You're right, folks who refuse to see the movie on such grounds are naive and prolly shouldn't get out of bed in the morning. Argument #2: Is how Wash died good or bad? This is the issue that seems to be turning people off more than the mere fact of losing Wash.

You'll notice that there's much less argument about Book, because Book's death is at least integrated into the plot. If Book hadn't died the way he did, the story would have been changed significantly. But if Wash hadn't died, the larger plot points--other than Zoe's brief dance with the reavers--would have been completely unchanged.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

SAMWIBATT

Friday, October 7, 2005 6:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fireflyfan278:
Yes. Some HUGE fans of the show will not see it if they find out what happened and will not see it again once they find out what happened.

If Josh wanted to do a sequel, he should have thought of that.

I respect your opinion, and I agree. I'm not among the huge fans who won't support the show, though. I trust Mr. Whedon to tell a story, and I'll take the pain along with the smiles.

The really really huge fans don't call him "Josh". (Unless they're joking...?)

AURAPTOR

Friday, October 7, 2005 6:51 PM

After all the trouble and work that so many have put into bringing this movie to be, to cop out now because a FEW fans don't get what they want, seems to me a bit bratty.

I for one didn't enjoy Wash's death either. I think it's a poor decission for Joss to have made, especially in the 1st movie of a hoped for trilogy.

We know there's no coming back for Wash in this 'verse, unlike in Angel or Buffy. But the story is really about Mal, his ship and his crew. Wash was part of his crew. So was Book. Yet Serenity still flies.

With out yammering on and on, I have one thing to say to those who may want back out now.

Get over it.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

SOUPCATCHER

Friday, October 7, 2005 7:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
If Wash has to die, and I got nothing against the idea in the abstract, as I've noted elsewhere--his death was forshadowed from the beginning of the series every time the credits flashed on his sad eyed smile just as the song hit "...tell them I ain't comin' back"--if he has to die, I say have him die like Boromir in LoTR, don't just have him get randomly speared on the way to Gondor.

I'd like to focus on this one particular point because I had a different reaction. Wash is an ace pilot. If Wash isn't flying Serenity then everybody dies. Who else could've navigated them through the three dimensional hell that was taking place above the planet? And who else could've recovered from losing all control from an EMP blast? Serenity is similar to the space shuttle in that it has the aerodynamics of a brick. Coming out of a spin that close to the ground with only 20% of the power/controls back online was an amazing piece of flying. And then to glide Serenity in to a landing with only split seconds to spot the runway and line up? Sheer brilliant piloting.

Wash is not a fighter. It might seem more fulfilling for him to go out in a blaze of glory taking his enemies on in hand-to-hand combat against all odds but that's almost like saying the only way to be a hero is through fighting.

Wash basically did what very few people in the 'verse (if anyone else at all) could've done. Through his actions he gave the rest of the crew the opportunity to complete the mission. He went out at the top of his game, a hero. That's a very Boromir-like death to me.

AURAPTOR

Friday, October 7, 2005 7:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by belasera:
How many times did Harry Kim die, anyway? Is there any sort of conclusive count on that?

Truth be told, I heart Voyager, but I would rather cry through a dozen funerals in the firefly verse than see Janeway pull another time travel/alternate reality stunt.

"I'll be in my bunk."

*** ROFLMGAO!!!***
( rolling on floor laughing my gorram ass off !!! )

I couldn't help but laugh as I read that!! As funny as it is true. Which leads me to concluded that the FF 'verse is ultimatly more in our heart than many would even admit here.

" time travel/alternate reality stunt..." hee hee hee. Good one!

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

FIREFLYFAN278

Friday, October 7, 2005 7:06 PM

If he's such a good pilot, why didn't he notice the pointy thing coming throught the window before it got there?

THECRAZYIVAN

Friday, October 7, 2005 7:09 PM

true fans are here to stay....

Wash-less or not...this story is NOT over!

~~~~~~~~~~
"There is a sense that this is still not over. It's hard to put a finger on what's so special about this project and about this group of people, but it's just one of those things you have to trust in, and relish. I am very, very proud."
---Jewel Staite on "Firefly" and "Serenity" in "Finding Serenity" (essay collection by Jane Espenson)

XANDERHARRIS

Friday, October 7, 2005 7:20 PM

"If he's such a good pilot, why didn't he notice the pointy thing coming throught the window before it got there?"..................

what does that have to do with flying a spaceship?

also if you recall, he was in mid gloat, not really paying attention, if you want to say that it was a bad time for gloating, i'll agree, but it has nothing to do with his skills flyin a space ship.

FIREFLYFAN278

Friday, October 7, 2005 7:23 PM

O.K.

HKCAVALIER

Friday, October 7, 2005 7:28 PM

Hey Soupcatcher!

No, of course you're right about fighting. I only used Boromir as an example of a death of a beloved character that was tremendously meaningful and thoroughly integrated into the narrative; one that my girlfriend would watch any time you asked, while she is reluctant to see Serenity again. I'm sure (or at least hope, my faith in Joss being just a teensy bit shaken) that when we get our trilogy, Joss will integrate Wash's death into the tapestry of subsequent events the way Boromir's was by the way it haunted Aragorn and with the meeting of Boromir's brother and such.

Not to put too fine a point on things here, but if an actual Reaver had crashed through the windshield and sunk his claws into Wash forcing the stunned crew into action, the death would have seemed less random. On a narrative level I wouldn't be wondering what even happened. As it was, it was a kind of a Deus Ex Machina minus the Deus. I would go so far as to say that Joss intended to grind exactly the existential axe that many here have been proclaiming--"Death is terrible and sudden and comes out of nowhere!" I dare say that he wants us to see the death as senseless as part of an angry point he's making about existence.

Remember his lyrical commentary on Objects in Space? I remember being a little surprised at how arid and cerebral his own vision of that lush and emotional story was. But that's the great thing about great art; the artist is just another viewer with an opinion, but the art transends all our reduction. By killing the Spiritual Father and destroying the Good Marriage he's gone a long way toward making over the Firefly universe into one that's more consistent with his existential pessimism.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

FIREFLYFAN278

Friday, October 7, 2005 7:32 PM

O.K.

This is for all of those who told me that in order to appreciate "everything that happened" I need to see it again.

Congratulations! You talked me into it.

But first, I plan to watch the entire DVD set again.

JESIAHBLACK

Friday, October 7, 2005 7:39 PM

Forget it, it seems already taken care of.
---
"Oh, I was born, a six-gun in my hand. Behind a gun I'll make my final stand."

BROWNCOAT1

Friday, October 7, 2005 7:56 PM

I believe that some might in fact be boycotting the movie. Some have posted as much here & on other boards that they were "throwing away their DVDs", "telling everyone they know not to see the movie", blasting it on message boards, etc, etc.

I can understand people being upset. I can understand & respect people being hurt & angry over the loss of two of the characters, but I can not understand doing deliberate harm to the future of the story by doing all they can to insure it fails because things did not go as they hoped they might.

Now before anyone goes grabbing a rope & looking for a tree let me say that I can fully understand being upset, mad even, but not to the extent some are taking it. Seems to me that the BDM separated the faithful browncoats from the fair weather fans. Don't mean that to sound like a put down, but I call 'em like I see 'em.

Mal is my favorite character, followed closely by Jayne. I would hate to see either leave the ship or be killed off, but if they were I would still be there. I would still watch, spend my money on merchandise, etc. I am a browncoat to the core. A fan of the entire story, not just one part of it. I may associate more with one character, but I care about them all. If Joss found it necessary to further the story to kill off Mal then I would be upset, but I would move on w/ the story.

Those that are claiming they are walking away because Wash or Book died remind me of kids on the playground; when things don't go their way the take their ball & go home. Please note I did not call anyone a child, only remarked that some of the behavior I have seen exhibited reminds me of childlike behavior.

Just my piece. Hope no one takes offense.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

SCHIZORABBIT

Friday, October 7, 2005 7:57 PM

i'm actually enjoying the debates among us browncoats triggered by the death of wash/major characters/whatnot.

can you just feel the love?

EMBERS

Friday, October 7, 2005 8:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thanatus:
can we just discuss this movie and work through some possible improvements so that maybe Joss/Universal can get some feedback on what works/what doesn't? Maybe we can have a positive impact on this franchise again. BTW...Active boycotting and/or not even giving Serenity a chance? Lame. Pure and simple.

If Joss had been allowed to continue creating 'Firefly' he would have killed off characters,
it is what he does. He finds it meaningful.

He has never listened to 'feedback' before
(and believe me you couldn't BELIEVE the nashing of teeth that occured around so many things he did on Buffy or Angel)
there is no reason to believe he would now....

But MOST people here don't agree that it would be necessary anyway.
Most people here love the film.

You want a show of hands? Frankly I think it is about a thousand to one....
maybe I'm wrong, maybe one in a hundred.
But whatever it is, whining about it isn't going to change anyone else's opinion.

JAIF

Friday, October 7, 2005 8:02 PM

I think you all miss some points:

1) Wash died. Suddenly you have to wonder - will he kill someone else off next?

2) Then they're fighting reavers, and they're doomed and taking casualties. How much more scary is it now that you know Joss means business?

3) Will Zoe be pregnant in the sequel? That would be fun. It would be especially interesting if River slowly replaces Zoe on some missions because Zoe's in the family way. Actually, I just want to see River develop a rapport with someone on the crew other than Kaylee. (I like Kaylee, but she's nice to everyone.)

-Jeff

APIDUDE

Friday, October 7, 2005 8:05 PM

Ok, I feel like I may be taking my virtual life in my own hands by posting.
First, I am not a long standing Firefly fan. I am sorry about that but I'd never heard of Firefly until about 1 year ago. I missed it on fox, much to my disappointment. I heard about it through my connectionwith Farscape (I won't detail the connection. Suffice it to say that Farscape fans are diligently watching to see what happens to Serenity.) As a result, I gave you my support and saw the film.
From an outsider's point of view the movie worked well for me, not only giving me a great time but infusing me with a desire to see the context of the movie. I now have the DVDs and wil be watching them this weekend.
Couple of thoughts, again from an outsider's POV:
"Book" died and so pushed Mal into action, creating the motivation to take the crew into danger for revenge. Wise move or not-doesn't matter. It was the motivational catalyst and forwarded the plot. Note that it FORWARDED the plot, i.e we are still in a story that will have (hopefully) a happy ending.

Wash died. Why?

Up until that point, the movie was a story and progressed like all stories. At that point something happened. His death was senseless, random, unexpected and did not forward any plot device that I could see. But it did create a HUGE amount of tension. HE JUST KILLED A KEY MAIN CHARACTER!!!! What the H**L?! Jeez, are ANY of them going to get out of this?!

...and all of a sudden this became more than just a story, it became like life.

The death was random, like death in real life - a 9 year old little girl run over on the sidewalk by a van full of drunken partyers. (this happened 10 years ago in my home town) Three men, Manson like, broke into a mobile home out in the country, made a mother and her four children lie face down on the floor and then proceed to shotgun the whole family to death. Need I go on? Probably not.

Wash died...and the movie became more than a story....

I am looking forward to meeting and getting to know both Book and Wash in the DVDs.

PS I will probably go see S again this weekend. I want it to succeed, now for its own merits, not just because it may help Farscape.

Apidude

HKCAVALIER

Friday, October 7, 2005 8:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaif:
I think you all miss some points:

1) Wash died. Suddenly you have to wonder - will he kill someone else off next?

I seriously want to know why Book's death was not sufficient for this?

Quote:
2) Then they're fighting reavers, and they're doomed and taking casualties. How much more scary is it now that you know Joss means business?

I don't rely upon the bare facts of the narrative for my emotional engagement. I rely on the believibility of the performances and writing for that.

Quote:
3) Will Zoe be pregnant in the sequel? That would be fun.

Loads. Gina's got a pretty rough road ahead, playing a woman who lost the love of her life and has to raise their child alone, keeping it real without overwhelming the rest of the plot.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

SOUPCATCHER

Friday, October 7, 2005 8:28 PM

Hey HKCavalier! It’s been a while (probably because I haven’t been over to the RWED much lately) and it’s nice to be reminded of how much I enjoy reading your thoughts .

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Not to put too fine a point on things here, but if an actual Reaver had crashed through the windshield and sunk his claws into Wash forcing the stunned crew into action, the death would have seemed less random. On a narrative level I wouldn't be wondering what even happened. As it was, it was a kind of a Deus Ex Machina minus the Deus. I would go so far as to say that Joss intended to grind exactly the existential axe that many here have been proclaiming--"Death is terrible and sudden and comes out of nowhere!" I dare say that he wants us to see the death as senseless as part of an angry point he's making about existence.

Yeah, I hear you. And I had the same reaction my first time although I swear they’ve changed that scene somewhat. When we first watched the movie I don’t remember them showing the Reaver ship at all. It was just: Bam; Wash is dead; Zoe goes to his side; Mal pulls her away; Second spear comes through; They’re running. I had no clue what killed Wash. It could’ve been that I was just so shocked that I wasn’t processing the next few seconds of the movie (does anyone else remember if they showed the Reaver ship touching down in front of Serenity and firing the second spear during the May 5th pre-screening?).

And I initially did think the death was random but I’ve changed my mind after watching the movie a few more times. I’m now convinced that the only reason I was so surprised was because of the powerfulness of the crash-landing scene. We shouldn’t be surprised that the Reavers are still coming. The crew shouldn’t be surprised that the Reavers are still coming. All the indications we’ve gotten from the show and the movie are that they keep coming until they’re all dead (paraphrase, “If we run they’ll chase us. It’s their way,” etc.). But the loss of control and the threat of dying is so great and it’s just so amazing that Wash managed to save them from crashing that we, and the crew, let down our guard, breathe a sigh of relief and think, “Phew. They made it.” But they haven’t yet. And that split second of relief at thinking that it’s over is what costs Wash his life. Everyone forgets the bigger threat, the Reavers. And so we’re shocked when it’s forcibly brought to our attention that the battle has only just been joined.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Remember his lyrical commentary on Objects in Space? I remember being a little surprised at how arid and cerebral his own vision of that lush and emotional story was. But that's the great thing about great art; the artist is just another viewer with an opinion, but the art transends all our reduction. By killing the Spiritual Father and destroying the Good Marriage he's gone a long way toward making over the Firefly universe into one that's more consistent with his existential pessimism.

Good point. And I go back to the scene on Haven when Mal explains his plan. None of the other people there know what war is like except Zoe. And she also has the most to lose from declaring war on the Alliance. Whereas Mal decided to not die after Serenity Valley Zoe chose to live and part of that was falling in love and marrying Wash. She knows that all of them could die and she still chooses to go along with the plan. It says something to me about her strength that she, of all the crew, makes a fully informed decision. And she also pays the highest price of any of the survivors.

JAIF

Friday, October 7, 2005 8:33 PM

"I seriously want to know why Book's death was not sufficient for this?"

In a word - timing. Also, Book's death was the spur for them to go to Miranda. Wash's death is a new event to make certain that we believe Joss can and will kill again.

"I don't rely upon the bare facts of the narrative for my emotional engagement. I rely on the believibility of the performances and writing for that."

If I'm reading that correctly, you don't really watch the show on film, you watch the one in your head. Is that what you're saying?

Anyways, I think you're side-stepping the point. Movies (and TV) are very formulaic. You don't kill a main character when it's in the middle, and in fact main characters rarely die period. Fight scenese are fun, not tense, because nobody's gonna die.

Now we have a film which puts a death in your face. Every injury is real now. Yes, it's important that Kaylee act believable when things go numb (or was it cold), and Simon rolling on the ground struggling to spit out the medicines he needs was well done. But die? I wouldn't have been worried at all if they hadn't killed Wash. At that point, all bets were off in my mind.

-Jeff

THANATUS

Friday, October 7, 2005 8:38 PM

I'm with HKC on this...If Wash absolutely had to die and it furthers the plot of future sequels, fine. I know I for one would have felt much better about it had the ship come to a rest and we see Wash impaled on the control yoke. Then we see the harpoons coming through the cabin and Mal and Zoe have to skin out. Fine. That would have been less distracting....dying with his boots on as it were. Dying mid sentence while he's being snarky...not so much. I think most of us are really arguing style over substance here. I remember at the end when they were burying their dead, I was thinking "two more movies in the (hoped for trilogy)...there's still a lot of room on that mesa, but I'm sure Joss can fill it in the end." Not the final thought this die-hard Firefly fan had hoped for.

HKCAVALIER

Friday, October 7, 2005 8:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaif:
"I don't rely upon the bare facts of the narrative for my emotional engagement. I rely on the believibility of the performances and writing for that."

If I'm reading that correctly, you don't really watch the show on film, you watch the one in your head. Is that what you're saying?

I sure wish there was a rudeness nob on my computer so I could turn down the helacious attitude people are flinging around here. Please, emotional believibility is what makes any story compelling to watch. If you don't believe a character or a situation, it doesn't matter much to you, does it?

Quote:
Anyways, I think you're side-stepping the point. Movies (and TV) are very formulaic. You don't kill a main character when it's in the middle, and in fact main characters rarely die period. Fight scenese are fun, not tense, because nobody's gonna die.

You speak as exactly the jaded genra afficionado I believe Joss aimed that scene at. But Firefly was far more realistic to me than any old t.v. show. Whatever formulaic quality an individual episode took on worked for me in that "all cliches are true" sort of way--'cept maybe the death of the prostitute Mal slept with; 'course she had to die...blah, blah, blah. Firefly didn't need this kind of manipulative plot device, and neither does Serenity.

Quote:
Now we have a film which puts a death in your face. Every injury is real now. Yes, it's important that Kaylee act believable when things go numb (or was it cold), and Simon rolling on the ground struggling to spit out the medicines he needs was well done. But die? I wouldn't have been worried at all if they hadn't killed Wash. At that point, all bets were off in my mind.

See, that's where manipulative plot devices fail, because for me, the fact that Wash died, told the jaded part of my brain that no way were any of the rest of the cast gonna die after that--where the hell would the franchise be then?

When you purposefully manipulate your audience in such a gross manner, half your audience buys it and half your audience resents you for it.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

JAIF

Friday, October 7, 2005 9:15 PM

Quote:
I sure wish there was a rudeness nob on my computer so I could turn down the helacious attitude people are flinging around here. Please, emotional believibility is what makes any story compelling to watch. If you don't believe a character or a situation, it doesn't matter much to you, does it?

That wasn't intended as rude on my part - I'm at work, so I'm trying to parse something that I didn't get, and trying to do so while flipping back and forth to server terminals.

Anyways, I have the same attitude about someone who says the bare facts aren't important. I think that's one of the things that's wrong with TV - a lack of consistancy because people think reality's overrated. I have no problem with suspending disbelief at some points (you can't enjoy scifi at some point if you don't suspend disbelief), but I like big things shown clearly in my face so I get it as well. It's nice to hint that characters may die, but that's old. It's fine to show book's death from the alliance, but that didn't make me for a second believe one of them was going to die to reavers. They've escaped reavers and their traps before, and they'll do it again, at least until I'm proven otherwise.

--- firefly spoiler coming ----

Btw, that's why Jayne's overt betrayel in Ariel is so big for me. I see it, it's a real thing, and now I can't trust his character. I can't just trust that they're a good family - all that hinting they do about Jayne is really, really real.

-Jeff

P.S. No, Jaynestown wasn't enough. That was "before".

THANATUS

Friday, October 7, 2005 9:38 PM

Hey all...little tangential here, but I'm new to these boards (PS-Post Serenity). Curious, though...did this level of acrimony, in-fighting, and outright contempt for one another and their opinions exist here prior to Serenity? If not, does that tell anyone else something about Joss' success/lack thereof here? Dunno, maybe it's just me...but to see this (assumed) shift in an otherwise solid fanbase seems it should raise some eyebrows somewhere.

LUPINADDAMS

Friday, October 7, 2005 9:49 PM

Just back from my first BDM showing - and there will be more - and I'm finding this thread interesting. I'm tending to agree witgh those who found wash's death worked well in context, heightening tension (my partner and i were so thrown by the suddenness of wash's death that we really were in fear for *everyone* from then on).
One thing - OK two things - I've noted as conspicuous by their absence in the discussion:

1) Compare and contrast Wash's demise with that of Trinity in Matrix Revolutions. Superficially similar, miles apart in impact. Plus Wash gave no dumb parting speech uttered after major thoracic trauma...

2) Were there not whispers before the BDM came out that certain of the cast were more reluctant to return, and that maybe Alan Tudyk actually asked for an out? Anyone asked Joss this?

"You are what you do."
Andrew Vacchs

RIGHTEOUS9

Friday, October 7, 2005 9:56 PM

I really hope they aren't boycotting a story because it was told the way the author felt it should be. I really don't think that does the characters of Wash and Book justice, and I don't think the actors of those parts we fell in love with would be pleased.

I posted what I thought of Wash's death on another thread, but I can't find that thread, so I'll post it again, thinking through it a second time.

Even the people who loved how this story has played out, are accepting that Wash's death was random and just there because death happens, and because it generated a great deal of 'all bets are off' danger. I agree that it did that.

I don't agree that this was just an effort to tug at our heart strings, or to shock the crap out of us, or even just to keep it real.

I think it was an effort to be emotionally honest, as much as literally.

What I mean is that doing the right thing is not oft rewarded -- it is not something you do because you're going to get a prize at the other end, or because if you do it you win the race. If that were the case, such a choice would be easy.

To end this story happily instead of bittersweetly, would have cheapened the choices these characters made. Wash didn't die for nothing. He died for a reason. He died for a cause that every single one of these characters signed on for.

Achieving a 'serenity' of spirit, a calmness at the other side of the storm, is not a journey taken without sacrifice.

Our bdh's made that sacrifice. Two lost their lives for it. The others, their loved ones. But in their choices, they transcended the powerful constraints of survivalism, and became heroes.

In that same way, I think we have to be willing to sacrifice these characters for the greater integrity of their story. Joss was able to do that, and I commend him for it.

No one wants to let go of these people. No one wants to accept that there will be no new stories of Wash and Book.

But I'll take it over a cheap pay-off. Some sacrifices are worth making, but make no mistake, they are sacrifices. Doing the right thing sucks in so many ways.

FRUNK

Friday, October 7, 2005 10:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
When you purposefully manipulate your audience in such a gross manner, half your audience buys it and half your audience resents you for it.

It all comes down to what people feel is manipulative, what isn't and why they watch. Everything that happens in any type of entertainment is manipulative to one extent or another. What you call grossly manipulative I consider a surprising turn for the characters.

For me the litmus test for character driven shows like Firefly and Serenity is the believability and entertainment value of the characters. They don't have to be universally consistent, but I expect them to react and behave like whatever their persona would dictate. The plots are going to be goofy, but I don't care. I want to see Mal and crew's reactions to the impossible situations they are in. In that light I had no problem with Serenity's body count.

For me the point is not that Wash and Book died, death happens and is a perfectly reasonable event in the context it was presented. Everything that happens in a script is at the convenience of the script writer. The key is how do the characters react to that death. For the most part I thought it was handled excellently. I feel the tension increase not because I'm worried someone else is going to die (I've seen it twice I know they aren't), but because I believe the characters are worried someone else is going to die. In that light I don't care how manipulative the characters' environment is, as long as they remain entertaining and fun to watch.

I didn't think it was perfect. I thought the biggest false note related to Wash's death was Zoe's suicide dash into the Reavers. I'm not sure if it was the execution or the idea but it felt weak and forced. Still, it's just a moment in an otherwise excellent series of moments.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

Sweet avatar and quote. Buckaroooo!

STAKETHELURK

Friday, October 7, 2005 10:23 PM

One other thing to think about when it comes to Wash’s death is the metaphor. Whedon loves metaphors and often has several running at once in everything he does. In Serenity, “the Signal” is something of a metaphor for the series itself and the story it was supposed to tell. In fact, the whole life story of the series is played out in the movie. Wash has often been seen as a Whedon surrogate, similar to Xander in “Buffy.” Thus, after the most difficult piloting just of his life (fighting to tell the story you want despite network interference) and in the moment when everything seemed to be working out, Wash (Whedon) gets a giant spike rammed through his chest (which is probably what the cancellation felt like). That’s why it’s sudden and cruel, because the cancellation was the same thing. Whedon’s surrogate is then transferred to Mal (hardened with grief but determined to finish the job), who despite the death of Wash (who has now become the lost series) is still going to transmit the signal (tell the story). But Wash’s death shows that even if the signal gets out (the story, Serenity, gets told), something has been lost in the process (the movie is not the series and can’t ever be the series). It’s the tragedy and triumph of “Firefly” played out for us again, which may explain some of the strong emotions people have experienced--we’re reliving the cancellation with the death of Wash.

XANDERHARRIS

Friday, October 7, 2005 10:50 PM

best.post.ever.

thanks stakethelurk

QUASARWINDS

Friday, October 7, 2005 10:54 PM

Joss posted this on the OB

Post subject: Worst. Movie. Ever.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

was probably "Summer Holiday" with Mickey Rooney. Can you believe that kid was the biggest star in the world? Funny world.

Meanwhile, I'm just rounding out the weekend with a little praise for my dear peeps. Considering everything we've had to overcome, this is an extraordinary achievment. And you guys have been in the front lines. I lurk, I know all. So thanks. Some of you might know that this flick means more than a little to me.

Yes, the second weekend will tell all, as we've always known. I'm not here to push you guys -- you push yourselves way harder than I could anyway. I'm just trying to figure out how to get the message out to the guys that aren't you, that don't know any of you, and that don't run into someone who saw the film. I'll be hounding the extremely patient Uni execs on that very subject. Like the lady said, "People have to know".

It's not that there HAS to be a sequel. It's just that I've got so many IDEAS...

JADEHAND

Friday, October 7, 2005 11:42 PM

Quote:
2) Were there not whispers before the BDM came out that certain of the cast were more reluctant to return, and that maybe Alan Tudyk actually asked for an out? Anyone asked Joss this?

I've heard/read that Alan suggested the death.

Also, that Joss said something like "If it makes people cry when they see it, I most likely cried when I wrote it."

And again: "This was season two condensed to 2 hours." Would it have been less upsetting if it happened on TV? Would it have been the "last episode I'll ever watch."?
It was part of the story. It got told in a movie instead of a "season 2". I hope it's not the end of the story. I want to see more. And Alan and Ron will be there when it's told.

Mal: "You did the right thing."
Book: "Coming from you, that means......almost nothing."

Visit WWW.Marillion.Com for a better way to live
"Dreaming the dream that only the sleepless know."

FIREFLYGAL

Saturday, October 8, 2005 12:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Quote:
Originally posted by fireflyfan278:
I'm not "happy to leave the verse".

But, hey, if you want to boycott it, that's your right. But-and I say this not to be mean, but to be true-don't ever sit around and say "they never put anything good on TV anymore, and all the movies they release are crap," because you lost that right. Studios put out junk because people don't want to feel and don't want to think, they just want a bunch of happy zombies at the theater. You can be one if you choose; I choose not to be--Serenity will soar for me again this weekend (my 4th time).

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

Last I checked this was the USA and people don't "lose their right" to criticize just because they pull their support from a movie or anything else.

I'm in the "Joss took the sky from me" camp with the deaths. Loved the movie, hated the deaths, TO ME, they were not necessary. I'm one of those people that goes to movies to see a happy ending. You can have suspense without having characters die. I am also one of the people who will continue to support the cast and Universal and see the movie over and over, convincing as many people as I can to see it with me. There are a lot of folks on another post who have "pulled" their support and I am trying to convince them not to. But I can certainly understand where they are coming from and their decision/opinion is just as valid as anyone elses.

I aim to misbehave!

Firefly items:
For lapel pins and badge holder lanyards
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TUBETECHNOLOGY

Saturday, October 8, 2005 12:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fireflyfan278:
I'm not "happy to leave the verse". I plan to watch the Firelfy DVD's till they wear out and then buy more.

Learn how to spell Joss' name correctly, first.

JASONZZZ

Saturday, October 8, 2005 12:46 AM

so, I see a lot of extreme positions here.

- People throwing away their DVDs
- Swearing it off forever
- People telling others to "love it or leave"
- People keep repeating "because Joss wants it that way" " Good enough for me" ,etc.

Look, let's just recognize all of the extreme positions as valid emotional outbursts and venting *AND* move on to better and constructive dialog... I see a lot of good with what Thanatus and HKCavalier (great movie BTW), voicing their discontent on what they saw as something foisted on them. They aren't just bitching, there's a lot of good analysis going on here. I can't ever accept that there is a franchise so extremely perfect that 1) it never has any flaws 2) it can't be improved somehow... But, those of you who *do* are perfectly free to "feel" that way *and* might have perfectly legitimate reason to believe so.

I say if you have reasoning to believe that it is completely flawless, bring it out, punch those keys and let's talk about them. I've heard that people feel that way, let's talk about why... On that same vein, let's hear from folks like Thanatus and HKC about wy they feel that the movie isn't doing exactly *it* for them...

Quote:
Originally posted by Thanatus:
So...let me see if I got this straight. Because we don't like the gratuitous deaths of major characters (BTW Wash was not my favorite character), and have some issues with this endeavor, we are dithering simpletons and we should find simpler faire for our feeble minds where major characters don't die, right? Like maybe...FIREFLY?!? Let's grasp some perspective here, people. Some people dislike Serenity because it was a cinematic disappointment, not because we're sad that our avatar(?) died. And I think I'm going to hurl if one more person says "(it) had to happen, because that's how it happens in real life. That's reality, man!" I said it on another post (but deleted it to accomodate peoples' squeemishness) and I'll say it again...If Joss wants to show the horrors of war and gunplay, then Jayne's arm is blown off for example. In "real life" you don't take 3 high caliber rounds to the shoulder and walk away with a few small puncture wounds. Show of hands...how many people out there have ever been in combat or had to draw a weapon in fear for their or their mates' lives? So please, let's see these plot devices for what they are...PLOT DEVICES used for shock value. Look I'm sure this will rile some people, and if it does...I appologize. I have no desire to leave this franchise...can we just discuss this movie and work through some possible improvements so that maybe Joss/Universal can get some feedback on what works/what doesn't? Maybe we can have a positive impact on this franchise again. BTW...Active boycotting and/or not even giving Serenity a chance? Lame. Pure and simple.

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JASONZZZ

Saturday, October 8, 2005 12:49 AM

Ok, let's hear from embers on why you think that "whining" about it isn't going to do any good. I think history has it better that indeed "whining" about it has changed a lot of things...

In fact, I am willing to bet good money that just sitting around with your mouth shut isn't going to influence things around you too much...

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
Quote:
Originally posted by Thanatus:
can we just discuss this movie and work through some possible improvements so that maybe Joss/Universal can get some feedback on what works/what doesn't? Maybe we can have a positive impact on this franchise again. BTW...Active boycotting and/or not even giving Serenity a chance? Lame. Pure and simple.

If Joss had been allowed to continue creating 'Firefly' he would have killed off characters,
it is what he does. He finds it meaningful.

He has never listened to 'feedback' before
(and believe me you couldn't BELIEVE the nashing of teeth that occured around so many things he did on Buffy or Angel)
there is no reason to believe he would now....

But MOST people here don't agree that it would be necessary anyway.
Most people here love the film.

You want a show of hands? Frankly I think it is about a thousand to one....
maybe I'm wrong, maybe one in a hundred.
But whatever it is, whining about it isn't going to change anyone else's opinion.

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JASONZZZ

Saturday, October 8, 2005 12:55 AM

I agree, I thought it was a joke... Me? scenes like that remind me of those Halloween fright flicks - you know, where the two teenagers are in bed in a hot sexy scene making out and out of nowhere Jason spears the both of them (accompanied by the biggest orchestral crash or violin whine), almost comparable to the old "cat jumping out from behind the curtain with a loud cat-screech" horror device... To me, that's what it reminded me off, sort of cheap, sort of hilarious all at the same time.

Quote:
Originally posted by Thanatus:
I'm with HKC on this...If Wash absolutely had to die and it furthers the plot of future sequels, fine. I know I for one would have felt much better about it had the ship come to a rest and we see Wash impaled on the control yoke. Then we see the harpoons coming through the cabin and Mal and Zoe have to skin out. Fine. That would have been less distracting....dying with his boots on as it were. Dying mid sentence while he's being snarky...not so much. I think most of us are really arguing style over substance here. I remember at the end when they were burying their dead, I was thinking "two more movies in the (hoped for trilogy)...there's still a lot of room on that mesa, but I'm sure Joss can fill it in the end." Not the final thought this die-hard Firefly fan had hoped for.

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JASONZZZ

Saturday, October 8, 2005 12:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thanatus:
Hey all...little tangential here, but I'm new to these boards (PS-Post Serenity). Curious, though...did this level of acrimony, in-fighting, and outright contempt for one another and their opinions exist here prior to Serenity? If not, does that tell anyone else something about Joss' success/lack thereof here? Dunno, maybe it's just me...but to see this (assumed) shift in an otherwise solid fanbase seems it should raise some eyebrows somewhere.

No, it's pretty much a big love fest b4 the movie. I won't go as far as saying the lack of criticality - If I say it, it's just exactly what I mean and not trying to insult folk's intelligence, so let's say the lack of *evidence* of criticality before...

but plenty of that if you move yourself over to Real World Events.

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WASHBURN

Saturday, October 8, 2005 1:03 AM

The loss of Shepard Book and my personal favorite character Wash was a saddening experience for me during an otherwise amazing film. Now with the loss of Book we lose a serious point of contention with his story...where did he come from? What was he before he became a Shepard? You know he was some part of the Alliance at one point thanks to the episode Safe during the series.

Now onto the loss of Wash....my personal favorite character in the series. He brought a child like sense of humor to the ship. As so seen in the pilot episodes,(the last two episodes aired in the series)were they pan to him playing with what else but dinosaurs. Made me identify with him heavily, because here he was with an amazingly difficult job and he kept his humor about him. Replying to a comment by Jayne:
"Oh they wouldn't arrest me I'm just the pilot"

To Mal during War stories:
"See there's obeying going on right under my nose!"

Now with the death of Wash you have an interesting point to bring up. Wash and Zoe..you see how she loved him so deeply. So where does this place her? Well I think if another movie or the series starts back up you have Zoe wanting to kill as many Reavers as she possibly could every time they go up against them.

As for my opinion on Joss Whedon's vision and killing off Book and Wash? I hate him for it. but will I ban the series? no....will I leave the 'verse he created HELL NO. But the thought of heading into the black without the best damn pilot ever worries me about the fate of Serenity. There was a line by Mal at the end of the movie that explains why Wash was so damn good, I'm pulling off a small part of the line.

"Love..you gotta love the ship" Right there is what made Wash such a damn good pilot...he loved Serenity and it's crew.

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar"

SAFEAT2ND

Saturday, October 8, 2005 1:49 AM

Seems to me after reading all these posts, that true fans are in fact NOT boycotting the movie, nor abandoning the franchise, just voicing their opinion clearly and concisely. Yes, I've seen the posts at the O-boards, but I figure of those posting, most are Browncoats to whom the wound is still raw and they are still reacting to it. I got stomped on there myself.

These are the ones that would benefit from reading this and Firefly gal’s and Chrisall's threads. The people posting here, for the most part, are accepting and reassuring to those in need. Trying to encourage them to keep the faith, not brow beating them into liking the movie like some extremists are.

For those "disillusioned", for lack of a better word, take strength in this; Serenity does not/ cannot change what Firefly was, only what it can or will be. It is but the first chapter, let’s see what the second chapter brings.

Safeat2nd, Chief Handyman of Destiny

JAIF

Saturday, October 8, 2005 4:17 AM

"Now with the loss of Book we lose a serious point of contention with his story...where did he come from? What was he before he became a Shepard?"

We don't lose it. For all we know, the sequel starts with Book's old comrade-in-arms or illegitimate son approaching Zoe with a job, and suddenly we're back in action.

On a tangent - I've read a few posts now talking about "extreme" positions or stating that we're bickering. I'd like to note that it's possible for people to take strong positions on a subject, debate it with strong language, and still not cause a social breach. I don't hate a person who disagrees with me, nor am I going to get angry just because they belittle my position. The only thing that really matters is that we don't make personal attacks, and in reverse, we take statements a bit more easily realizing that we can't see the body language and hear the tone behind them. Not everyone is a great communicator, either (I sure ain't), so we can work to understand what a person is trying to say even if it's not clear.

I've rambled, but basically I don't think this thread has been overly harsh.

-Jeff

MACBAKER

Saturday, October 8, 2005 6:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thanatus:
So...let me see if I got this straight. Because we don't like the gratuitous deaths of major characters (BTW Wash was not my favorite character), and have some issues with this endeavor, we are dithering simpletons and we should find simpler faire for our feeble minds where major characters don't die, right? Like maybe...FIREFLY?!?

This is the problem! Firefly, the dvd set, is safe because it's a closed book! Yes, in the first 14 episodes, no major character died, but you are mistaken if you believe for a minute that major characters wouldn't have died if the series hadn't been canceled. I guess for you, it's a good thing FOX canceled the series, cuz, like the movie, I doubt you would have liked where the series would have gone!

Lets get a little perspective here! Over the course of those 14 episodes, every character been shot or stabbed at least once. The grand exception being Inara (who btw is the only character to also come though the movie without a major injury). With the lives these people led, death was inevitiable! Sooner or later their luck was going to run out, and someone was going to fall.

I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.

JASONZZZ

Saturday, October 8, 2005 6:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thanatus:
Hey all...little tangential here, but I'm new to these boards (PS-Post Serenity). Curious, though...did this level of acrimony, in-fighting, and outright contempt for one another and their opinions exist here prior to Serenity? If not, does that tell anyone else something about Joss' success/lack thereof here? Dunno, maybe it's just me...but to see this (assumed) shift in an otherwise solid fanbase seems it should raise some eyebrows somewhere.

SOUPCATCHER

Saturday, October 8, 2005 7:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Here's some additional reading material to consider from threads previously posted...

Well, I think the Real World Events Discussion section of fireflyfans (where all but one of these links are from) is a bit of a special circumstance. We have been known to get a mite stroppy over there.

As far as threads that are specifically related to Firefly, I do remember things getting tense on occasion. But that wasn't the behavior of the majority. This one topic does tend to cut to the bone more than most. Hopefully we can maintain civility while disagreeing.

BUBBLEOFEARTH

Sunday, October 9, 2005 5:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Crumpy:
Only if they have no imagination. In the movie it has been six months since Jubel Early! So why did Book go to Haven? What happened when Inara left Serenity, did Mal choke? How many battery operated devices has Kaylee worn out? Have Wash and Zoe given up on the idea of kids?
All these and other questions can be answered in Serenity -1 (the prequel?).

I haven't read all the way to the bottom yet, and I apologize if I'm repeating anyone, but except for the batteries and Mal Choking, oh so many of these questions and more were answered in the comics that mostly filled in the blank months between Early and The Operative.

JADEHAND

Sunday, October 9, 2005 5:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Washburn:
Now with the loss of Book we lose a serious point of contention with his story...where did he come from? What was he before he became a Shepard? You know he was some part of the Alliance at one point thanks to the episode Safe during the series.

Now I've seen speculation and agree myself that the answer to Book's past is clearly told in the film.

Select to view spoiler:

He was an Operative. And like this one saw something that shattered his faith in the Alliance. So he found faith elsewhere. Maybe he had a hand in Miranada, or Serenity Valley. I wouldn't be shocked to see this Operative in an abby soon.

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"Dreaming the dream that only the sleepless know."

CHRISTHECYNIC

Sunday, October 9, 2005 1:13 PM

It comes to this:

People watched the movie once and then swore to never see it again. They did this for no readily apparent reason.

That’s all that there is to it. If they liked Wash why don’t they want to see him alive again? If they like Firefly why do they refuse to give it a chance? We know that people who did exactly the same thing but then were compelled to see it again, dragged in by friends, liked it the second time around. They were able to see things more clearly and they enjoyed the film.

So why would you refuse to give the film a second chance? I can’t come up with a reason. I’ve seen things that I absolutely hated and had no reason to like that I could see, and when enough people who shared my interests told me to give them a second chance I did.

There is no way I would refuse to give a second chance to something with characters I loved.

-

It honestly seems to me like if you won’t see the movie a second time you can’t like Wash much. You refuse to show the character any respect at all. But I don’t do psychology, I’m a math major.

RIVERBIRCH

Sunday, October 9, 2005 1:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by XanderHarris:
because of wash's death? i mean seriously? it was upseting....but still....

I saved Latin, what did you ever do?

I was devestated too but I think a TRUE fan would not boycott, nor leave the browncoats because of this. I think true colors show with the reaction to the movie.

* I swallowed a bug *

REVAER

Sunday, October 9, 2005 1:38 PM

With respect to the emotions people have towards their favorite,
(possibly redundant, but since I was recently stung...

SPOILER!!!!)

All these characters are birthed from the mind of Mr. Whedon. Kill your support, and your truly kill these characters and their interactive counterparts that helped them become who they were. If you can fall so deeply for one whose lifetime has actually spanned one TV season plus a movie, imagine what Joss could come up with if he had more support. I did not want King Arthur to bite it. His greatness is all the more magnified by his exit. Better than Wash dying from an intestinal blockage (not reaver induced). Honor the characters and strive for more from Joss, or they really are dead.

CHRISTHECYNIC

Sunday, October 9, 2005 1:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverbirch:
I was devestated too but I think a TRUE fan would not boycott, nor leave the browncoats because of this. I think true colors show with the reaction to the movie.

I think you're being overly dramatic. I agree that a true fan would not boycott when thinking rationally.

But the whole point is that this is in relation to the most emotional part of the movie.

A "true fan" (what a slippery term) would give it a second chance just because a lot of things, especially emotionally powerful ones, need a second time before you can decide if you like it or not.

We’ve already heard a lot of reports where people who were never planing on seeing it again did for whatever reason and realized that they did like/love it and wanted to go back another time.

These people might love the movie if they saw it a second time, but they just refuse to do so. It doesn’t make sense, but then again nothing ever does.

-
-

Important Note

I agree that a true fan would give it a second chance, but that does not mean that such a fan will like it.

If someone honestly gives it another chance and honestly hates it that is fine. There is no rule that says a Firefly fan must like every episode, and certainly no rule that they must like Serenity. If someone watches it once, decides never to watch it again, and calls themselves a fan I lose respect for them.

If, on the other hand, someone watches it once, does not like it, but then gives it that second chance and still doesn’t like it there is no problem. They gave it the chance it deserved and we obviously disagree, but they did all that we can expect and in no way disrespected the show or movie.

RIVERBIRCH

Sunday, October 9, 2005 1:47 PM

[christhecynic, you put it much more diplomatically than I did. Of course you are right. I am emotional at the moment. Thanks for being the calmer voice.

* I swallowed a bug *

WASHBURN

Sunday, October 9, 2005 1:57 PM

Now I've seen speculation and agree myself that the answer to Book's past is clearly told in the film.

Select to view spoiler:

He was an Operative. And like this one saw something that shattered his faith in the Alliance. So he found faith elsewhere. Maybe he had a hand in Miranada, or Serenity Valley. I wouldn't be shocked to see this Operative in an abby soon.

With your post I thought of something and went and saw Serenity for the 6th time. Is it just me but.....

Select to view spoiler:

But is it just me or is there some sort of similarities between the operative and Book? I mean look at Book's fighting style (seen in Serenity pt 1 when he punches out the lawman) and the operatives. Not only are they similar but damn but I saw some Book in the operative not only fighting but spiritual. Maybe, just maybe whedon has a HUGE surprise for us and the operative turns out to be Book's child he never knew of.

I am a leaf on the wind watch how I soar.

See! There's obeying going on right under my nose!

SAFEAT2ND

Sunday, October 9, 2005 2:06 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC, well said! That echos my views too.

Safeat2nd, Chief Handyman of Destiny

EMMA

Sunday, October 9, 2005 2:07 PM

I am kind of middle of the road with this film I fully understand and appreciate both points of view. However, I do not understand why some (not all) people on either side of the debate become so vitriolic towards and about fans that disagree with them.

The insults, ignorance and general lack of friendliness that has surrounded this debate has really bugged me (personal opinion, don't stress out). Everyone should just accept and get over the opinions others have. Life is way too short to care if X thinks Y. Forget about it and have a bar of chocolate instead!

extremely dimensionally transcendental

RIVERBIRCH

Sunday, October 9, 2005 6:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Washburn:

us and the operative turns out to be Book's child he never knew of.

I am a leaf on the wind watch how I soar.

See! There's obeying going on right under my nose!

Well they are both handsome enough. Jubal I didn't think was too handsome. But Book and this guy certainly are, so it could be feasible that he's his son... but would he then kill his own father???

* I swallowed a bug *

WASHBURN

Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:36 AM

Well maybe like Book he didn't know...but it comes out later and the operative helps out Mal against the alliance. I'm not saying this is true but knowing Whedon's twisting mind I'm not going to be surprised if something along these lines comes out to be true.

Like I stated before people who are boycotting this film are voicing their opinion....can you be mad? yes...can you blame them? no why? it's their opinion folks...just deal with it

JARON95

Thursday, October 20, 2005 11:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheCrazyIvan:
true fans are here to stay....

Wash-less or not...this story is NOT over!

Indeed. There can be no distinction between Firefly fans and Serenity fans. You either are, or you are not. Serenity IS the future of Firefly, despite whatever flimsy excuses one might conjure up to convince oneself otherwise.

M4TT

Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:48 PM

I do find it all rather interesting. There are fans who love the show and movie and want to go on the journey wherever it may take them, through the rough and smooth. Then there are the fans who only want the easy ride it seems and will reject it if it doesn't play out how they want.

Or maybe some are really emotional about the events and just kick out at anyone near them, some are just shocked and move on.

The thing is they're all still on the firefly site talking about firefly so they ALL still care. And they ALL will carry on watching. Otherwise they'd have left by now to do something else.

"There's only one thing worse than being talked about, and that's not being talked about".

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, October 20, 2005 2:30 PM

Such a fan who would boycott the movie for this reason is a throwback. I mean I met trekkies who did this to star trek films, and they were demented. These people where tinfoil beenies. No offense to trekkies or the 'coats but if these guys showed up to the film wearing klingon battle gear they'd probably scare the fish away.

Such folk aren't Joss fans. To quote Steven Colbert "You people are brave. You're doing something. You're watching TV." If there are fans out there who can't handle living on the edge to such a degree that they can't handle watching the way Joss deals it out, then they aren't really Joss fans. I think he works hard to make mindless vegetative eye-candy as edgy as possible. And please don't flame me for that characterization of TV, Joss himself has said much worse things about it.

IAMALEAFONTHEWIND

Thursday, October 20, 2005 4:27 PM

I've been reading a ton of posts over the last couple of weeks and when I back off and look at what seems to be upsetting people, I see this:

A lot of fans have watched the seriers episodes over and over and over and in the process have created their own personal versions of what they think the characters are. So, years later, when the movie is finally released, they walk into the theatre with an entire attic full of expectations. How could they NOT be dissapointed?

I've read all these posts: "So and so wouldn't do this" "so and so wouldn't do that". "This was meaningless and stupid" "that was insulting and senseless". ALL of these complaints are bourne out of people's own personal expectations in my humble opinion. It's a bummer, but it's true.

Wash's death may seem meaningless to a lot of people. That doesn't mean that the story is not structurally sound. It is. I think people are entitled to their opinions and it's great that they're willing to share them here. I also think it's important that no one, not even Joss, is above constructive critisism. But I haven't heard much of that anywhere on these boards. I've heard a bunch of shocked fans who can't believe this or that. The truth of the matter is: You're in Joss playground. It's not yours, it's his. I think the outrage and dissapointment comes because people really care about these characters (which is great), but what some seem to have forgotten is that they're Joss's characters. How can anyone possibly think they know these characters' motivations and traits better than Joss? That's rediculous.

And while I have heard people give what seems to be thoughtful critisisms, they're still frought with emotion. People don't like that Wash died. It seemed meaningless. Joss is just jerking us around. It's not fair. Well, neither is life. It never has been. And if Joss wants to jerk you around, then that's his prerogative. Personally I don't think that's what he was doing. I think he was making a point and using it as a device to highten the tension. Some people can look at that and see it as a shallow storytelling gimic. But really, so can everything else then. Storytelling is formulaic. It just is.

I think that if most of the dissapointed people pushed past the emotional shock they've had to the film and look at it from that new vantage point they would see how technically and emotionally sound it is. Does it have some major bummer stuff in it? Hell yes (Wash has always been my favorite character), but that doesn't mean it wasn't a great story, and a fitting story at that, to really take these characters to new places and tie up what was unfinished from the series.

And I'm sorry but the characters are the same characters from the series. They are, through and through. Anybody who doesn't think so has just forgotten that they're Joss's characters and not their own. But to me even that is kinda cool 'cause that means that these characters are soooo likable that people have completely adopted them as their own. But you gotta let go of some of that if you are to enjoy the movie and accept it as the completion of the story.

And for anyone who still thinks that the movie sucked and could have done better, then go and do so! I loved the movie, so if you made one that was actually better I'd be lining up to see it over and over just like I have this one.

"I don't wanna explode."