BDM Double Meanings

POSTED BY: DucesTecum
UPDATED: Saturday, February 18, 2006 21:41
VIEWED: 27972
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DUCESTECUM

Monday, October 3, 2005 11:18 AM

I flat-out hijacked, stole, copy-pasted this from the Firefly Prospero site because I haven't seen anything like it here and want to know what my FFF.net buddies think. I hope I haven't done anything which will "get me in trouble"!

My apologies to Rameking Shaped Flan for stealing any thunder.

>>>>>1. On Haven during the scene where Mal is seeking guidance from Book, Mal says something like, "You really have to tell me how come you know so much about all this. (meaning the Alliance Parliament and Operatives)" Book says, "No, I don't." Mal lets it drop.

During that exchange, Mal was the fans asking for Book's story. Book was Joss reminding us that he doesn't *have* to tell us. If we're obnoxiously annoying, we may get him to break down. But I think this movie was Book's story as told through The Operative. Book may not have left his service over River Tam, but something caused him to realize he wasn't doing the right thing. After that, it doesn't take much story to explain how he found his path and is living a life of pennance.

2. On Miranda when they are heading back through Reaver territory to get to Mr. Universe, someone warns Mal that the Alliance knows about Mr. Universe and they'll see them coming. Mal says, "They won't see this coming."

I think that is Joss commenting on Wash's death scene. Naturally, I didn't pick that up the first time...'cause I didn't see Wash's death coming. But the second time around, I thought that was a key line.

3. The obvious one. After everyone is getting back to normal on Serenity, Mal asks Zoe about Serenity, but he only calls the boat "her" instead of referring to it by name. Zoe answers, "She's tore up plenty, but she'll fly true."

This is a no brainer that they're talking about Zoe. I still want more from Zoe than an acknowledgement that "she's tore up plenty," but at least she's admitting that much.

What else have you found?<<<<<

What are your thoughts on this?

And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling. Mal, Train Job

KNIBBLET

Monday, October 3, 2005 11:47 AM

What are your thoughts on this?

I think you're obsessive and delusional and you'll see patterns and answers in the bottom of a cereal box ... but we're all like that when it comes to the 'Verse, so it's okay.

SPOILER SPACE

I agree with your Book and Zoe observations but not the Wash death /Reaver attack.

Why don't I agree? That would mean that Joss looked at Wash's death as a sick joke on us.

He's never created throw away characters and he knows we love the people that he creates.

Miss Calendar's murder was a sick joke carried out by Angelus; however, it was not a sick joke on us. It was crucial to the story and not something you saw coming. It hurt like hell and Xander will ALWAYS hate Angel because of it.

Not a joke. Not a joke in either case.

I don't know why Joss killed either Book or Wash although I suspect with Book is was the poetic ending of an Operative dying at the orders of another Operative. You reap what you sow.

With Wash, sometimes being excellent at what you do still doesn't save you. Yes, he was a leaf on the wind and we watched him soar ... but on the ground he was as mortal as the rest of us.

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/

AURAPTOR

Monday, October 3, 2005 11:51 AM

Scenes 1 and 3 are good, but I have a different opinion on your take for the 2nd one. Wash's death wasn't what I took as being what Mal was talking about ( but clearly no one did see that comin ) What I took out of that scene was the Reaver fleet that Mal would have hot on their heels as they headed toward Mr. Universe.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

DUCESTECUM

Monday, October 3, 2005 12:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Knibblet:
What are your thoughts on this?

I think you're obsessive and delusional and you'll see patterns and answers in the bottom of a cereal box ... but we're all like that when it comes to the 'Verse, so it's okay.

SPOILER SPACE

I agree with your Book and Zoe observations but not the Wash death /Reaver attack.

Why don't I agree? That would mean that Joss looked at Wash's death as a sick joke on us.

He's never created throw away characters and he knows we love the people that he creates.

Miss Calendar's murder was a sick joke carried out by Angelus; however, it was not a sick joke on us. It was crucial to the story and not something you saw coming. It hurt like hell and Xander will ALWAYS hate Angel because of it.

Not a joke. Not a joke in either case.

I don't know why Joss killed either Book or Wash although I suspect with Book is was the poetic ending of an Operative dying at the orders of another Operative. You reap what you sow.

With Wash, sometimes being excellent at what you do still doesn't save you. Yes, he was a leaf on the wind and we watched him soar ... but on the ground he was as mortal as the rest of us.

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/

>>>>>I think you're obsessive and delusional and you'll see patterns and answers in the bottom of a cereal box ... but we're all like that when it comes to the 'Verse, so it's okay.<<<<<

No need to get snippy Jayne. I told you where this came from and I didn't say I agreed with what was said. I merely asked for your thoughts about it.

And who is Miss Calender and Angelus? This is a Firefly/Serenity thread and some of us have never seen or care to see Buffy or Angel. So there!

And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling. Mal, Train Job

FIREFLYFAN70

Monday, October 3, 2005 1:00 PM

I agree with the first and 3rd idaes but not the second. When Mal said they won't see this coming I think he was referring to the Reaver fleet.

I do have another double meaning that I think has been overlooked tho. Early in the movie when they are getting ready for the heist at the trading station, Mal asks River if she understands her part in this. She relpys to him "Do you?"

To me that statement had more than one meaning. River asking Mal if he understood his part in what to come( the rest of the story) and also her role in the big picture, not just the heist.

I know I could be reading more into it but even Mals response of "this is what Ido implies something much deeper than just a simple robbery"

Just my 2 cents.

Fireflyfan70

DUCESTECUM

Monday, October 3, 2005 1:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Scenes 1 and 3 are good, but I have a different opinion on your take for the 2nd one. Wash's death wasn't what I took as being what Mal was talking about ( but clearly no one did see that comin ) What I took out of that scene was the Reaver fleet that Mal would have hot on their heels as they headed toward Mr. Universe.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

>>>>> your take <<<<< Please, I repeat again, these are not my ideas. I found them curious and thought they were an excellent topic for conversation.

Your thoughts however about the Reaver fleet, I am inclined to agree with but that also brings up the question How did Mal know the Alliance fleet would be waiting for him? I've seen it three times now but maybe I forgot or missed something.

And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling. Mal, Train Job

LEXIGEEK

Monday, October 3, 2005 8:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DucesTecum:
How did Mal know the Alliance fleet would be waiting for him? I've seen it three times now but maybe I forgot or missed something.

Zoe says something to him along the lines of "It's a fair bet the Alliance knows about Mr. Universe. They'll see this coming." It was an educated guess.

ODDNESS2HER

Monday, October 3, 2005 9:31 PM

I have a feeling Joss meant to draw a parallel between the Miranda populace and America's current political climate. He may not want us to become Reavers, but we shouldn't just lie down either.

COZEN

Monday, October 3, 2005 9:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
I have a feeling Joss meant to draw a parallel between the Miranda populace and America's current political climate. He may not want us to become Reavers, but we shouldn't just lie down either.

Is it bad that I am so completely understanding this?

http://www3.sympatico.ca/ldnemeth/images/blackjacksilver.GIF

JASONZZZ

Monday, October 3, 2005 10:05 PM

Ok, but what *is* your take?

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http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283
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ODDNESS2HER

Monday, October 3, 2005 10:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by cozen:
Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
I have a feeling Joss meant to draw a parallel between the Miranda populace and America's current political climate. He may not want us to become Reavers, but we shouldn't just lie down either.

Is it bad that I am so completely understanding this?

http://www3.sympatico.ca/ldnemeth/images/blackjacksilver.GIF

Ummm...no?

COZEN

Monday, October 3, 2005 11:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:

Ummm...no?

Yeah, um, lol! Some context here: I'm Canadian, a citizen thereof. And from here, my perspective is that Mr. Bush and the administration that governs him is primarily geared to the betterment of his oily buddies. And that the large corporate media services serve that agenda, in large part by keeping us viewers of popular media entertained to the point of utter passivity. Kinda like a drug, all that mind-numbing enter-infotainment. A soporific infovirus. So, the parallel with the Pax(etc.) drug used on to still the aggressions on Miranda looks like it could have "a" connection. Could be coincidental, lotsa room for interpretation here.

Coulda simply been a plot device. Me, I'm chillin'.

Still, helluva movie, eh?

***
"You think somebody wouldn't go see somebody if they didn't want entertainment?"

DERANGEDMILK

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:06 AM

I definitly agree with one and three as well as the political implications of the Pax. I'd also like to add that Wash's(god rest his fictional soul) last words "I am a leaf in the wind. Watch me soar." are very much like the common phrase used to express one's mortality in relation to time, "I am dust in the wind." Very appropriate and in adding "Watch me soar" gave his death a very liberating almost upbeat note despite that my stomach is still in knots two days after seeing it and the scene made me so emotional I was unable to go to the second showing i'd intended. I'm still looking for my "Wash's death support group" made up of browncoats who liked the movie, everyone who seems to be affected by it as much as myself has turned against the rest of the film because of it.
-e

KNIBBLET

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 3:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Knibblet
I think you're obsessive and delusional and you'll see patterns and answers in the bottom of a cereal box ... but we're all like that when it comes to the 'Verse, so it's okay.

Originally posted by DucesTecum:
No need to get snippy Jayne. I told you where this came from and I didn't say I agreed with what was said. I merely asked for your thoughts about it.

Wow! Sorry you couldn't read and understand the joking reply which was clearly under your nose. Take offense at nothing much?

Quote:
Originally posted by DucesTecum:And who is Miss Calender and Angelus? This is a Firefly/Serenity thread and some of us have never seen or care to see Buffy or Angel. So there!

I do believe my point was that Joss doesn't create throw away characters and he doesn't take the 'death' of those characters lightly.
To paraphrase my Captain, "If I go and start a flame war, you'll see something different."

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/

WASURERA

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 5:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Knibblet:
What are your thoughts on this?
SPOILER SPACE

I don't know why Joss killed either Book or Wash although I suspect with Book is was the poetic ending of an Operative dying at the orders of another Operative. You reap what you sow.

With Wash, sometimes being excellent at what you do still doesn't save you. Yes, he was a leaf on the wind and we watched him soar ... but on the ground he was as mortal as the rest of us.

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/]

I keep wondering if Book wasn't originally a council member, or a general. It'd be fitting if he were the General who was in charge of the Serenity Valley campaign, and it would explain why the Alliance soldiers seemed so vehement (as though they knew who he was) when he needed healing in 'Home'. Just an idea. :o

And with Wash--I agree, but I'm thinking that Whedon did it with a plot in mind for the next movie. I see River as being the craziest, most talented pilot ever in the history of the 'Verse. Of course, I could be on crack. :o

"I'm so hip I can't see over my pelvis!"

http://home.comcast.net/~aethercitystudios/index.html

SLOWSMURF

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 5:53 AM

The episode is 'Safe'. I'm sure you knew that, just saying.

Most of the ones seem plausible except that "You won't see this coming" I think book could've been virtually any high ranking official/spy/etc to get that kind of treatment.

That seems too far fetched.

RAKARR

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 6:11 AM

To the original post...

Possibly all three of those are true. Possibly not.

The thing with Book I don't agree with you on. From what I remember Mal was telling Book that he should tell him how he knows so much abour crime some day. Book told him he didn't. I don't think that is Joss saying that he doesn't have to tell us his past. Who knows? Maybe Joss will come up with a prequal movie for Firefly/Serenity setting some time like during the Alliance vs. Indenpendence war perhaps wich we will learn more about each of the crew of Serenity of what they were up to before hand? That would be a good way to bring back Book and Wash for one more showing and could answer some questions. Well that's just a possibility. Really none of us (probably not even Joss) knows what will happen.

As for Zoe... Maybe they were actually talking about Zoe and how she feels, but maybe not. It's hard to say and there isn't proof.

As for Wash again it's hard to say for sure. Although I think I kinda agree with the Wash one cuz I sure as hell didn't see it coming. And really I didn't see it coming that they were gonna draw the Reavers to actually help them out. I thought what Mal was talking about was that they wouldn't see it coming that the truth would get out all over the 'Verse. I don't remember any one telling Mal or saying that the Alliance knew ab out Mr. Universe and that they found him.

"I am a leaf in the wind."

WASURERA

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 6:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SlowSmurf:
The episode is 'Safe'. I'm sure you knew that, just saying.
That seems too far fetched.

Nope, I couldn't remember it, and I leant out my DVD's to my brother; ^^;

I don't know... I just hope we get a chance to find out. ;_;

"I'm so hip I can't see over my pelvis!"
http://home.comcast.net/~aethercitystudios/index.html

KSYRJAMA

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 6:25 AM

Ok, I 100% agreed with the Zoe thing, not at all with Wash, but I had another idea for the Book scene. I actually (me overthinking now) thought that the Shepherd was saying that their pasts were no longer relevant. It's about the here and now. And the future.

That was my take anyway.
Karen

p.s. Joss is quite a brilliant man, don't you think?

DUCESTECUM

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Knibblet:
Quote:
Originally posted by Knibblet
I think you're obsessive and delusional and you'll see patterns and answers in the bottom of a cereal box ... but we're all like that when it comes to the 'Verse, so it's okay.

Wow! Sorry you couldn't read and understand the joking reply which was clearly under your nose. Take offense at nothing much?

I do believe my point was that Joss doesn't create throw away characters and he doesn't take the 'death' of those characters lightly.
To paraphrase my Captain, "If I go and start a flame war, you'll see something different."

WOW! I don't have a problem reading. I do have a problem reading humor when it isn't there. I take offense at being attacked without provocation when the very idea is to start a conversation, you know, the give and take of ideas merely for the sake of hmmm, conversing.

>>>>To paraphrase my Captain, "If I go and start a flame war, you'll see something different."<<<<<

shudder

"And that's not incense."

KNIBBLET

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 1:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DucesTecum:
WOW! I don't have a problem reading. I do have a problem reading humor when it isn't there. I take offense at being attacked without provocation when the very idea is to start a conversation, you know, the give and take of ideas merely for the sake of hmmm, conversing.

I'm going to try again. Don't ask me why. But I'm going to try again. See, this here part (in italics) is why is WASN'T an attack but was rather, a "JOKE".

Quote:
Originally posted by Knibblet:
I think you're obsessive and delusional and you'll see patterns and answers in the bottom of a cereal box ... but we're all like that when it comes to the 'Verse, so it's okay.

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/

CYBERSNARK

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 2:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DucesTecum:
I still want more from Zoe than an acknowledgement that "she's tore up plenty," but at least she's admitting that much.

Yeah, but any more than that and she wouldn't be Zoe. She's holding it in, like she always did before she met Wash (I'm going by Tracey's comments in "The Message"). No, it's not particularly healthy, but it's true to Zoe.

Quote:
Originally posted by derangedmilk:
I'm still looking for my "Wash's death support group" made up of browncoats who liked the movie, everyone who seems to be affected by it as much as myself has turned against the rest of the film because of it.

Sign me up. Wash's death made me feel sick, but that doesn't change the brilliance of the story. He saved his fellow travellers from a firey death, and died smiling. Seems to me it'd be unjust to not respect that.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

ARAMINA

Sunday, October 9, 2005 12:44 PM

I definitely agree with the Zoe scene. I didn't spot it the first time round, but it's so telling. I think that both Mal and Zoe knew they were talking about Serenity and Zoe, but they didn't need to specify. Their relationship doesn't allow for big emotional scenes, but they have found other ways to be intimate as friends without hugs and tears.

Fireflyfan70 - I noticed River's "Do you" and I thought that was very telling right from the off that something big was going to happen (well, not that we didn't already know that what with this being a Big Damn Movie).

Another double meaning was River's (and aren't most of them from her? :) ) "They never lie down". She wasn't talking about Reavers never giving up with their prey etc, she was talking about Miranda and the fact that the men who turned into Reavers didn't lie down like the rest of the population.

When I think of an interesting signature you'll be the first to know.

CYBERSNARK

Sunday, October 9, 2005 4:17 PM

And of course there's Zoe's "prophecy" during the bank heist, repeated from the series, about the definition of a hero.

Pretty much sums up what happens to Mal. . .

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

ENGINEANGEL

Sunday, October 9, 2005 5:10 PM

Quote:

derangedmilk wrote:
I definitly agree with one and three as well as the political implications of the Pax.

I'd like to second that agreement.

Quote:

I'd also like to add that Wash's(god rest his fictional soul) last words "I am a leaf in the wind. Watch me soar." are very much like the common phrase used to express one's mortality in relation to time, "I am dust in the wind." Very appropriate and in adding "Watch me soar" gave his death a very liberating almost upbeat note despite that my stomach is still in knots two days after seeing it and the scene made me so emotional I was unable to go to the second showing i'd intended.

WOW ... i love that explaination.

It's amazing. WOW. good job!

Quote:

I'm still looking for my "Wash's death support group" made up of browncoats who liked the movie, everyone who seems to be affected by it as much as myself has turned against the rest of the film because of it.

I didn't like wash's death and still liked the movie. Well, i started a thread that basically what you're looking for. Check it out: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13372
Talk to ya there!!!

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."

Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS

Sunday, October 9, 2005 6:01 PM

Ducestecum's sig made me notice this:

Inara, in Serenity: "And that's not incense."

Inara, in Out of Gas: "I told you, that's incense!" ...Looks like Jayne was right to worry after all.

The idea about the Pax is intriguing. I like it. It fits with the Operative being your average religious fundamentalist nutcase until he can't avoid the proof of what the people he's working for end up creating in his name.

---------------------------------------------------
Early: Where'd she go?

Simon: I can't keep track of her when she's NOT incorporeally possessing a spaceship, don't look at me --

ENGINEANGEL

Sunday, October 9, 2005 6:39 PM

another double meaning is OBVIOUSLY:
all those times Mr. Universe or his wife-bot say "You can't stop the siganl" that was such a dis to FOX!!!!

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

DROCCULARI

Sunday, October 9, 2005 6:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
And of course there's Zoe's "prophecy" during the bank heist, repeated from the series, about the definition of a hero.

Pretty much sums up what happens to Mal. . .

I must be the densest person on the planet. I saw the BDM three times and never got that one. At least now I do. Thanks.

WHISPER

Sunday, October 9, 2005 9:54 PM

Another one I noticed was at the very beginning of the movie when Mal is talking to Simon and he says something like: "This job goes south, there may well not be another."

I didn't catch this until the third time I saw the movie, but I took it as statement for the movie in the real world. That if this movie doesn't do well, there may not be another one.

www.whispergraphics.net

JAYNEZTOWN

Monday, October 10, 2005 7:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by engineangel:
another double meaning is OBVIOUSLY:
all those times Mr. Universe or his wife-bot say "You can't stop the siganl" that was such a dis to FOX!!!!

)

I agree

plus we have
Zoe ( Bank Job ) -
do you know what a hero is, its somebody that gets others killed
But she may have also been remembering Mal leading the Battle of Serenity

River ( End of movie ) -
Storm is getting worse
Next film is gonna be more gruesome, more Reavers, Blue-Sun, Jayne tuggery, Hands of Blue....you name it

but Mal replys they'll get through it

LIMINALOSITY

Monday, October 10, 2005 9:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DucesTecum:
I flat-out hijacked, stole, copy-pasted this from the Firefly Prospero site because I haven't seen anything like it here and want to know what my FFF.net buddies think. I hope I haven't done anything which will "get me in trouble"!

My apologies to Rameking Shaped Flan for stealing any thunder.

3. The obvious one. After everyone is getting back to normal on Serenity, Mal asks Zoe about Serenity, but he only calls the boat "her" instead of referring to it by name. Zoe answers, "She's tore up plenty, but she'll fly true."

This is a no brainer that they're talking about Zoe. I still want more from Zoe than an acknowledgement that "she's tore up plenty," but at least she's admitting that much.

1. Maybe, maybe, but I agree with Ksyrjama, and think that's Book telling Mal that he's come out the other side of the terrible things he's seen and done and -Book- doesn't need to talk about it anymore, even if Mal thinks Book's 'gotta tell' him. For sure it speaks to the themes of belief and redemption threaded throughout the movie.

2. I don't think Joss is cruel or smart-aleckey to the fans in that way.

3. After Zoe says "she's tore up plenty, but she'll fly true" Mal says something like 'it's going to be rough' and Zoe replies something to the effect that 'it always is'. I think that's all we get from Zoe. She'd go cry in her bunk where nobody would see it.
I looked everywhere for the post I read (think it was an interview, but danged if I can find it). Joss, Nathan and Gina are discussing this scene before filming it, and Gina confirms with Joss that the reference is to her emotional stability.

Knibblet: I see stuff at the bottom of cereal boxes too, and when I pour the milk onto the cereal, it floats around and writes messages for me like a ouiji board. I feel for you that DucesTecum couldn't hear your humor, I did. I like it that this site is pretty calm and polite without much offense either intended or taken. I've noticed from plenty of job related email misses that it's pretty easy to misunderstand something written.

Derangedmilk: I wasn't too sure I could handle a second viewing, but my second viewing brought healing, better understanding, and lots more laughs.

And what about that bizzaro Fruity Oaty Bars commercial? It was pretty wierd all the way through (kind of a Zombie Power Puff Girls look) but the bit where the octopus comes out of the girl's tummy with the words "Not Mandatory" written on the screen behind her...eeek, eeeek, seriously creepy. Somebody want to break that one apart to the gooey center for us? There had to be some nightmare entendre in there.

"It's grotesque! And oh look, something in a jar." -Wash

ENGINEANGEL

Monday, October 10, 2005 1:58 PM

Quote:

written by Liminalosity:
And what about that bizzaro Fruity Oaty Bars commercial? It was pretty wierd all the way through (kind of a Zombie Power Puff Girls look) but the bit where the octopus comes out of the girl's tummy with the words "Not Mandatory" written on the screen behind her...eeek, eeeek, seriously creepy. Somebody want to break that one apart to the gooey center for us? There had to be some nightmare entendre in there.

I don't know what that was about but i'm pretty sure that it had to do with something other than just the subliminal code/message embeded in it. Just a few fatcs to help someone to figure it out:
- the octapus came out from the women's bust.
- all of the characters looked like they were having seizures (they're eyes and pupils were all getting bigger, then smaller, then bigger, then smaller, ect.)
- the "Not Mandatory" thing mentioned above.
- at some point in the song, when the octapus's eyes went seizure-ish, the song mentions, "they will blow your mind."
-does anyone have the full lyrics to the fruity oaty bar song? that might help decipher this.

Quote:

Written by JaynezTown:
Zoe ( Bank Job ) -
do you know what a hero is, its somebody that gets others killed
But she may have also been remembering Mal leading the Battle of Serenity.

Maybe this one has a triple meaning!!!! LOL. But seriously though, she, in the movie, might have been making the guy put down his weapon so that no one would get killed, refering to Mal and the Battle of Serenity (thinking about it herself, because it sure would fit in!!!), and forshadowing how Mal's actions get Book and Wash killed. (our boy must be a hero)

Also, this probably doesn't have anything to do with the movie but that man in Jaynestown that jumped in front of Jayne when he was going to get shot died because everyone thought Jayne was a hero. Just a thought.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

THELURKER

Monday, October 10, 2005 3:30 PM

I'm surprised no one has included this one in this thread:

On Miranda, when River heaves in the corner and Simon goes to her. She says "I'm all right" to Simon, then pauses, gets sort of an almost surprised look on her face and repeats "I'm all right." On the surface, it looks like she's talking about being finished getting sick, but I read into it that for the first time since we've "known" her, River feels a true sense of clarity of mind.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

BLACKEYEDGIRL

Monday, October 10, 2005 3:38 PM

I think someone's searching a little too deep on these.

I did love River's "I swallowed a bug" line cos I had flashes to Objects in Space when she was being Serenity, cos Serenity had just effectively pulled a 'barn swallow' and swallowed a bug herself.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
http://pluraplofapocalypse.blogspot.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Inara: "Do aliens live among us?"
Kaylee: "Yes. One of them's a doctor."

ENGINEANGEL

Monday, October 10, 2005 4:20 PM

Quote:

TheLurker wrote:
I'm surprised no one has included this one in this thread:
On Miranda, when River heaves in the corner and Simon goes to her. She says "I'm all right" to Simon, then pauses, gets sort of an almost surprised look on her face and repeats "I'm all right." On the surface, it looks like she's talking about being finished getting sick, but I read into it that for the first time since we've "known" her, River feels a true sense of clarity of mind.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

No, TheLurker. You are not wrong. i saw that, too. But i don't think it has a double meaning. The first time she says"i'm all right" to Simon, she's refering to the throwing up. The second time she says it, she's refering to her mental state. She's not crazy anymore. Still phsycic but she can now control her own actions. (yeah!!!) They're two lines that means two different things.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

LIMINALOSITY

Monday, October 10, 2005 5:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by engineangel:
Quote:

TheLurker wrote:
I'm surprised no one has included this one in this thread:
On Miranda, when River heaves in the corner and Simon goes to her. She says "I'm all right" to Simon, then pauses, gets sort of an almost surprised look on her face and repeats "I'm all right." On the surface, it looks like she's talking about being finished getting sick, but I read into it that for the first time since we've "known" her, River feels a true sense of clarity of mind.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

No, TheLurker. You are not wrong. i saw that, too. But i don't think it has a double meaning. The first time she says"i'm all right" to Simon, she's refering to the throwing up. The second time she says it, she's refering to her mental state. She's not crazy anymore. Still phsycic but she can now control her own actions. (yeah!!!) They're two lines that means two different things.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

Yeah, I saw this one too. With Joss I don't think it's possible to be looking too deep. We can be wrong, sure, but he's usually way below the surface. With scuba gear. And a flashlight.

"They weren't cows inside. They were waiting to be, but they forgot. Now they see sky and they remember what they are." -River

ENGINEANGEL

Monday, October 10, 2005 5:20 PM

Quote:

written by Liminalosity:
With Joss I don't think it's possible to be looking too deep. We can be wrong, sure, but he's usually way below the surface. With scuba gear. And a flashlight.

LOL x 3. SOOOOOO TRUE. happens in everything he does.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

LIMINALOSITY

Monday, October 10, 2005 7:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by engineangel:
Quote:

written by Liminalosity:
With Joss I don't think it's possible to be looking too deep. We can be wrong, sure, but he's usually way below the surface. With scuba gear. And a flashlight.

LOL x 3. SOOOOOO TRUE. happens in everything he does.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

One of these days when things cool down a bit I'm going to start a post asking the love-it-all fans if anyone can mesh "Shiny" for me between the 3 shows. Where it started, on which episodes it appeared in all 3 shows in the same week. You know, serious raving mad fan stuff. Wait a minute, would it have been raving mad to notice that Monet painted haystacks in all kinds of light? I don't -think- so!

"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vacuuming systems." -River

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL

Monday, October 10, 2005 7:41 PM

Can't believe no one's mentioned Mal's speech to River at the very end..."Love keeps her in the air when she should fall down; tells you when she's sick 'fore she keels", etc (prolly missing some stuff, but sue me--only seen it 4 times, and that's not enough to memorize significant chunks of dialogue). Anyway, 2nd time in the theater, I got to thinking that what Mal's talking about could just as well be Joss talking about the Firefly/Serenity 'verse. Like Mal, he's had things taken from him, but he kept fighting and eventually pulled out a bit of a win (the ship Serenity in Mal's case, the movie Serenity in Joss' case). It seems to obvious that this is Joss talking about his love of the 'verse. To me.

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

P.S. I'm on your side, Kniblet.

LIMINALOSITY

Monday, October 10, 2005 8:49 PM

Uh huh inevbetrayal, I think that one's in there too. Plus I think that Mal's had a big fat epiphany in the plotline, and Mal/Joss is saying that you have to let your heart be that big and that wide open
(that you can love the ship as much as any of the rest of your peeps) in order to be like a leaf in the wind (ok, Wash said it, but it's thematic), and that he and River have both come through to the other side(s) of their personal hells and are finally capable of loving that much. Yup, and then River says something about the storm's getting worse (meaning the Alliance might blow them out of the sky, or whatever) and he says, sumpin' sumpin' yeah, but were almost through it, meaning they're almost healed and have the heart to get through anything life can throw at them. I'm just sayin', this shit is deep as the ocean.

What would you call a thing like Pandora's box, except that when you open it instead of suffering and pain, all these great levels of story come flying out. And he's almost never obvoius or cheesy about it either. Mis-ter Fabulous! Wonder if people will be translating Joss stories into Chinglaise in 500 years. Whaddya think?

Grrrr. Arrrgh

LIMINALOSITY

Monday, October 10, 2005 9:00 PM

wooops, sorry, I meant to include this for inevitablebetrayal, cuz I wrote it down when I found it posted last week. I don't have the script yet, but this seemed pretty close...
'Love keeps her in the air when she ought to fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. It makes her a home.'

SICKDUDE

Monday, October 10, 2005 10:31 PM

Completely agree with the theories on Zoe's "tore up" line, her "definition of hero", and River's "they don't lie down". As to the original thread's number two (gee, that sounds bad), "they won't see this coming". I thought that was a reference to his talk with Book and how Book says "they'll come at you sideways". Cap was saying that he could come at them sideways too, i.e. dish it out as well as they could.

As to number one, Book's statement that he doesn't need to know, I completely agree. Joss is saying the Book backstory will never get told, and isn't crucial to the story. However, here's something that didn't occur to me until the last screening: the element of re-birth. What we know about Book was that he was Alliance military, fairly high up, with a profound tactical knowledge. Then he left (dis-illusioned?) and wound up finding a new faith as a Shepherd. Well, that describes the Operative to a tee! The movie goes out of its way to say he strongly believes in his cause (not his actions). He gets dis-illusioned with the Alliance and everything he believed in to the point where he says "There's nothing here" about himself. Now he needs to find a new Faith (not Eliza Dushku, either), and he may well turn to religion and become a Shepherd himself. Voila, rebirth!

"Don't say 'ka' until you've tried it." Daniel Jackson

MRSEMBASSY

Monday, October 10, 2005 11:20 PM

I have a different take on Mal's conversation with Book. I've seen the film six times now, and I'm more and more convinced that Book isn't refusing to tell Mal his background; he's acknowledging that Mal already knows.

The exchange that immediately preceded those lines (Mal: "How does a shepherd know so much about that line of work?" Book: "I wasn't always a Shepherd.") is Book practically coming right out and TELLING Mal that he was an operative; so when Mal says, "You'll have to tell me about that someday," and Book replies, "No, I don't." He's basically saying, "No, I don't need to tell you... BECAUSE I JUST TOLD YOU."

The look that Mal gives him right after that seems to confirm this - it's very thoughtful, and serious; the two of them look at each other as if something very important bit of information was just exchanged.

That's how it looks to me, anyway!

-Mrs. Embassy

LEMMINGMAN

Monday, October 10, 2005 11:26 PM

Don't know if this exactly fits the topic but here goes.

Mal 'If I see you again I'll likely kill you myself'
Operative 'You won't'

Mal won't see him coming or won't kill him?

Just Lemming Man, no more no less

QUASARWINDS

Monday, October 10, 2005 11:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DucesTecum:
I still want more from Zoe than an acknowledgement that "she's tore up plenty," but at least she's admitting that much.

How about this?

Mal: You think she'll hold?
Zoe: She's torn up plenty but she'll fly true.
Mal: Good. Make sure everything is secrue.
Mal: Could get a bit rough.
Zoe: Always does.

Im not sure if that was the exact quote but it was something along those lines.

What do you pay him for? Public Relations.

ORPHEUS

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 12:06 AM

Don't you all just love how deliberate all of these line readings are? It's almost like they're giving us permission to read too much into it. I'm definitely loving it.

DERANGEDMILK

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 12:55 AM

engineangel wrote:
WOW ... i love that explaination. It's amazing. WOW. good job!

DUDE!!! I got a kiss!!!!

ENGINEANGEL

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 3:03 AM

SORRY, THIS IS A LONG RESPONSE. I'VE JUST GOT TO ANSWER EVERYONE ELSE'S RESPONSES!!!

Quote:

written by Sickdude:
Completely agree with the theories on Zoe's "tore up" line, her "definition of hero", and River's "they don't lie down". As to the original thread's number two (gee, that sounds bad), "they won't see this coming". I thought that was a reference to his talk with Book and how Book says "they'll come at you sideways". Cap was saying that he could come at them sideways too, i.e. dish it out as well as they could.

this just came to me when i saw your response.

Mal says "they won't see this coming".

You thought that was a reference to his talk with Book and how Book says "they'll come at you sideways". You thought the cap was saying that he could come at them sideways too, i.e. dish it out as well as they could.

I think that you are right that he's thinking about what Book said, but I think Mal was thinking about how since the allience comes at people sideways, they wouldn't expect Mal to come straight at them (which he does: "Bastard's not even changing direction" - said by the operative.) I'm sure that he also meant "they won't think that the reavers are behind us." It also could be literal - there was a cloud distorting the allience's view of all of the ships.

Quote:

written by Sickdude:
As to number one, Book's statement that he doesn't need to know, I completely agree. Joss is saying the Book backstory will never get told, and isn't crucial to the story. However, here's something that didn't occur to me until the last screening: the element of re-birth. What we know about Book was that he was Alliance military, fairly high up, with a profound tactical knowledge. Then he left (dis-illusioned?) and wound up finding a new faith as a Shepherd. Well, that describes the Operative to a tee! The movie goes out of its way to say he strongly believes in his cause (not his actions). He gets dis-illusioned with the Alliance and everything he believed in to the point where he says "There's nothing here" about himself. Now he needs to find a new Faith (not Eliza Dushku, either), and he may well turn to religion and become a Shepherd himself. Voila, rebirth!

Wow!! I completly agree with your analysis of Sheperd Book being an Operative in the past. Remember, the operative in the movie "didn't know the secrets, he just had to keep them." It "wasn't his place to ask what was going on", but once he found out he was "no longer they're [the allience's] man."

Quote:

written by LEMMINGMAN
Ma:l 'If I see you again I'd like to kill you myself'
Operative 'You won't'
Mal won't see him coming or won't kill him?

The operative says: "You won't. There is nothing left to see." I'm pretty sure he's saying "you won't see me again."

Quote:

written by QUASARWINDS
Mal: You think she'll hold?
Zoe: She's torn up plenty but she'll fly true.
Mal: Good. Make sure everything is secure.
Mal: Could get a bit rough.
Zoe: Always does.

I'm not sure if that was the exact quote but it was something along those lines.

You got it mostly right. The end is actually:
Mal: It could get Bumpy.
Zoe: Always is.

Quote:

written by ORPHEUS
Don't you all just love how deliberate all of these line readings are? It's almost like they're giving us permission to read too much into it. I'm definitely loving it.

Of course!!! I am in love - with Joss Whedon's writing.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

SIGNINE

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 4:01 AM

Well, since this thread is spoilertastic I guess I don't need to hide anything anymore, do I?

So I've got an interesting one for you, it's been mentioned that Wash will appear in any sequel to Serenity. It would follow then that we're either going to have a crazy Whedon moment (Wash's clone! Wash was a robot and the real Wash is in captivity! Wash's Ghost!), actually that would be a crazy writing moment, apart from Whedon, or Wash survived.

I know, his death was too perfect, it pulled my heartstrings, got a tear, but also ultimate respect.

On the other hand, I don't know if it was intended this way or not, but when River and Mal take Serenity up (after presumeably weeks of repairs), you see the dinosaurs still on the console. I don't know about you, but I instantly read into this in a couple ways. Serenity was Wash's best friend (other than Zoe). After the crash sequence, we all thought Serenity was dead. One of her engines flew off, things were torn apart, there were holes and broken glass everywhere, things didn't look good.

Then Wash gets impaled, and we thus assume he is dead as well, we even see his grave.

On the other hand, we never see the crew return to Serenity, we only see her taking off after repairs are complete, and those silly dinosaurs are still on the console. Is that Mal giving props to Wash, did everyone just forget about that? Is Zoe cool with seeing reminders of her dead husband everywhere? Serenity was fixed up, isn't it possible Wash could have been? I can see him demanding having a grave if he couldn't show up for the funeral.

It makes sense to ME anyway.

UNICORN

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 4:44 AM

Okay. I'll number my submissions to this thread in the text. Spoilers aplenty!

Wash's last words? That's an awful lot like a Samurai warrior speaking a poem before he commits sepuku, or ritual suicide by self-disembowelment. (Wash had a good death (1), the very kind the Operative was talking about, and run through the middle, too!)

Structurally, his death was necessary to make sure we all knew that Joss has no "token deaths," those red-shirted characters other people create to signify the seriousness oif a situation. Wash's death made sure everyone in the theatre thought, "Oh God, Oh God, They're all going to die!" (2) For the next twenty-five minutes, we all wondered if Joss was going to let all of our heroes die. Wash's death gave the last siege an enormous intensity, that was its purpose.

But this too, mirrored reality, in a sense; we all thought F*x had killed our beloved 'Verse, had run it through and vanquished it forever. We were all afraid that it would never return, that we would never see our heroes again. But just as F*x failed to destroy our show, so the Alliance forces ultimately failed to kill Serenity, and the crew pull through, just barely, to see another day (3).

This whole movie was a big screw-you to F*x, by my way of thinking; "No matter what you throw at us, we're still here, and you can't stop the signal, (4)" Joss was saying to them.

There is no such thing as a weed.

Serenity is here. 9/30/05

LIMINALOSITY

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 5:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by signine:
On the other hand, I don't know if it was intended this way or not, but when River and Mal take Serenity up (after presumeably weeks of repairs), you see the dinosaurs still on the console.

On the other hand, we never see the crew return to Serenity, we only see her taking off after repairs are complete, and those silly dinosaurs are still on the console. Is that Mal giving props to Wash, did everyone just forget about that? Is Zoe cool with seeing reminders of her dead husband everywhere? Serenity was fixed up, isn't it possible Wash could have been? I can see him demanding having a grave if he couldn't show up for the funeral.

It makes sense to ME anyway.

The dinos on the console has made me very uncomfortable since first viewing, and unlike Wash's death (which I'm at peace with) the dinos bothered me more, and it seemed there were more shots of more dinos the second time I saw Serenity. Dang, the crew wouldn't just leave them there. At least not without some word as to why. Zoe wouldn't have maybe stood for it anyway, as you say. Hmmmm.

Wouldn't that be just like Joss. Anyone remember the end bits of the Buffy episode "Lover's Walk" (one of my very favorite of all things)? Cordelia was...wait an f'ing minute...she was bloody well -impaled- by falling onto a piece of rebar...it looked very bad for the good guys, or anyway for Cordelia. Next shot is a boom shot of a funeral with some Scooby-looking attendees and you hear the minister giving an 'ashes to ashes' sermon. Camera descends to street level, and -look! Buffy and Willow walking down the street, passing right in front of the funeral which isn't Cordelia's after all. Joss is a tricksy naughty man.

Signine, you may have something here!

Oh, and one other thing. The second time I saw the movie, I Forgot. To eat. My chocolate. This is a thing that has never happened. Not the first time I saw it, the second. I like this movie a lot.

"You want a slinky dress? I can buy you a slinky dress...Captain, can I have money for a slinky dress?" -Wash

BRAINYSMURF00

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 7:30 AM

One sort-of-double-meaning I noticed is that Book said that the Alliance would "come at them sideways" and then, the ships when they were waiting in the ion cloud actually looked sideways compared to the ships in the tv pilot Serenity.

**Special note: New Browncoat here. This is my first post! "

JAYNEZTOWN

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 10:40 AM

Book's blood filled whisper into Mal's ear :

Shepard understands that Mal lost all trust in
many things
, not only the lord or his god, but in people aswell. He tells Mal no matter what his philosophy - that he has to believe - have faith in humanity and his crew -
and a hardened Mal then finally puts trust in his people, River Tam, and starts to trust the people of the worlds he's willing to inform about Reavers.

ENGINEANGEL

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 11:39 AM

I've heard that all of the cast has been signed on for the next sequels. That could mean three things - the first two were already mentioned by signine:

Quote:

So I've got an interesting one for you, it's been mentioned that Wash will appear in any sequel to Serenity. It would follow then that we're either going to have a crazy Whedon moment (Wash's clone! Wash was a robot and the real Wash is in captivity! Wash's Ghost!), actually that would be a crazy writing moment, apart from Whedon, or Wash survived.

- crazy whedon momment: A clone is a possibility, but the real wash is in captivity and was a robot just doesn't work. Joss would never do that. And do you think Zoe would have reacted the way she did (come on Wash, baby, get up!!!) if he was just a robot) No, that one doesn't work. My favorite scenario is that Wash comes back as a ghost only River can see. he can't leave the ship because he hasn't yet made peace with Zoe. He didn't even get to say good-bye.

River can see him because she is a phsycic and can sense feelings and stuff around her.

- Wash survived: no way. The poll went straight through his stomach and he was left there too long before anyone could see to his wound. Lost to much blood and why would they have a funeral for him if he wasn't dead?

but signine left one out that I don't particularly like but just might happen: flashbacks (for both book and wash).
- flashbacks: they may very well happen. The next movie might very well be dealing with Zoe and how she and the rest of the crew are getting over the death of Wash. You can already see that they can't totally let him go - the dinosaurs are still there. The second movie might also be dealing with Zoe questioning what she does: we already see some of that after Mal wouldn't dump the cargo and take that man with them ("in the time of war, we would have never left a man behind.") - and when she says that, you can see that for several seconds afterword she seems to be questioning why, but then she turns her attention to Wash and it's all okay. Well, wash isn't there anymore so what's going to happen next time around?

just my thoughts
keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

RELFEXIVE

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 11:57 AM

Everything strange said by River means something.

"I swallowed a bug" - barnswallow

"He didn't lie down... they never lie down" - Reavers were the ones who didn't lie down and die on Miranda

"Show me off like a dog... old men covered in blood, it doesn't touch them but they're drowning in it" - can't remember the exact words just now, but obviously refers to those key members of Parliament

"My God - you're like a trained ape. Without the training."
"Come a day there won't be room for naughty men like us to slip about at all..."
I know the secret.
http://www.theshadowdepository.co.uk/index.htm

LIMINALOSITY

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 5:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrsEmbassy:
I have a different take on Mal's conversation with Book. I've seen the film six times now, and I'm more and more convinced that Book isn't refusing to tell Mal his background; he's acknowledging that Mal already knows.

The exchange that immediately preceded those lines (Mal: "How does a shepherd know so much about that line of work?" Book: "I wasn't always a Shepherd.") is Book practically coming right out and TELLING Mal that he was an operative; so when Mal says, "You'll have to tell me about that someday," and Book replies, "No, I don't." He's basically saying, "No, I don't need to tell you... BECAUSE I JUST TOLD YOU."

-Mrs. Embassy

I think you have it there.

Here's another tidbit: Mal's scene with Inara where he tells her 'I got no rudder, wind blows north, I go north...' then in few seconds later he says 'you spin me about, fog things up' ha ha ha ha ha what is she, the south wind - she is his rudder, he just doesn't recognize it. That's a cute little D.M.

Another frosting covered seven layer tidbit I enjoyed was the whole murky business with the classroom, one of River's nightmare rooms where shitty things happen. When she was starting to get clear about the Pax/Reaver information that was frying her brain, there's that scene where she tiptoes into the classroom in her sexy hospital gown. She looks down at the deskscreen and floating behind the Chinese characters is Miranda. She pulls it todard her mind, and then there's a reverse perspective shot of giant River looking through the deskscreen at the spinning planet below (planet shown in real colors, River in nightmarespace glow). That was fab. The whole thing where the classroom was nightmare space for her was creepy-good. I liked the actress playing little River too, she was so believable -'we're in their ** and in their heads, and we haven't the right'.

I'm experiencing withdrawal, should possibly return for another viewing. MrsEmbassy above writes that she's seen it six times, I read someone else saying thirteen times, ok, so four times isn't crazy, right? I did get my homework done.

"The leg is good. It'll bleed plenty and we avoid any necessary organs" -Mal

ENGINEANGEL

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 9:51 PM

Quote:

written by RelFlexive:
Everything strange said by River means something.
1) "I swallowed a bug" - barnswallow
2) "He didn't lie down... they never lie down" - Reavers were the ones who didn't lie down and die on Miranda
3) "Show me off like a dog... old men covered in blood, it doesn't touch them but they're drowning in it" - can't remember the exact words just now, but obviously refers to those key members of Parliament.

1) eh ... it's not a huge thing. I think it might just have been comic releif.
2) totally agree with you on this point.
3) I agree with you here as well. "Show me off like a dog": remember in the beginning we hear that the man saying that key members of parliament have seen River.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

JCLAST

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 10:14 PM

I never got into Buffy or Angel, but has Joss ever done time travel before? My reason for asking is this:

Maybe Book doesn't need to tell Mal his story because Mal is experiencing it. The implication is that Book was an operative, but what if we was _the_ operative?

Then it also makes sense that the operative reformed. He travelled back to try and help Mal et al, but he couldn't stop his prior self.

Both characters are phenomenally calm, cool, and collected. And on the surface, they're both fairly muscular black men. Joss very well could have given us all something that we've been wanting all along without even telling us.

SHANNY

Wednesday, October 12, 2005 3:13 PM

I'd have to say my take on the Wash thing is that they were referring to the Reavers helping them out with the Alliance, willingly or not. But I guess I definitely didn't see his death coming. I think Joss put that in there to remind us of the mortality of them all. Like someone else said, he was a leaf on the wind, but mortal enough on the ground. Firefly is supposed to be a bit more realistic and you can't do high adventure things like that without someone getting hurt.

As for River and her "do you" comment. I think she could tell something big was about to happen, and Mal has sort of taken over the role of her and Simon's guardian. As we saw in Safe when she says "daddy will come." She knows she's going to need his help to get through it all and I think she knows he pretty much will help her with anything.

I think the thing about Zoe is right on though. Mal and Zoe have a way of speaking to each other without words. She hasn't come through a civil war and all their hardships to give up with the death of her husband. She'll keep flying true under her Captain. It's just Zoe's way.

Oh, I'm gonna go to the special hell.

BLINKER

Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:47 PM

The title is a double entendre in itself, considering the fate of Miranda.

Quote:
Originally posted by Unicorn:
Wash's death made sure everyone in the theatre thought, "Oh God, Oh God, They're all going to die!"

Which is, after all, the definition of interesting -- in adventure movies as well as landings.

_________
Sliders: Gate Haven - http://slidersweb.net/blinker

GREENFAERIE

Sunday, October 16, 2005 11:24 PM

I only got this on my second viewing... and REALLY got it on my third. When the crew is on Miranda, after River freaks out and Jayne says (like) "All these people died for no reason!"

As his words finish, the camera is on Wash for a full beat: silence.

A beat later, a close-up on Wash as he delivers the next line. But that first beat on Wash, "... died for no reason!" Wow. That's cinematic foreshadowing at its best. (Of course there was a reason plot-wise, but to them, and most of us, it was a senseless death).

UNICORN

Monday, October 17, 2005 1:58 PM

I didn't post this earlier, but "Miranda" is also kind of Joss playing with us. Miranda was two things on earth that was: it was Shakespeaere's character who says, "O brave new world/That has such people in't" (The Alliance were trying, after all, to create a brave new world; such people indeed!) and Miranda was also the name for the series of rights you are read when you're put under arrest, which begin with "You have the right to remain silent." Just like all them folk on Miranda, wouldn't you say?

There is no such thing as a weed.

GREENFAERIE

Monday, October 17, 2005 4:01 PM

Miranda was also the name of the Forbidden Planet (from the same movie).

SONG

Monday, October 17, 2005 4:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
I only got this on my second viewing... and REALLY got it on my third. When the crew is on Miranda, after River freaks out and Jayne says (like) "All these people died for no reason!"

As his words finish, the camera is on Wash for a full beat: silence.

A beat later, a close-up on Wash as he delivers the next line. But that first beat on Wash, "... died for no reason!" Wow. That's cinematic foreshadowing at its best. (Of course there was a reason plot-wise, but to them, and most of us, it was a senseless death).

This post sent serious chills through me. Well spotted! I'm not sure I ever would have picked that up on my own.

-----
"Is it time to go to sleep again?"
"No, mei-mei. It's time to wake up."

IAMALEAFONTHEWIND

Monday, October 17, 2005 5:07 PM

I just gotta say here that this is the most awesome thread I have read around here. I friggin' love this stuff and am soooo impressed with Joss's writing that it allows us to ponder these things, whether they are right or wrong. Fantastic!

The only thing I think I could really add at this point is that when Mal says that "they won't see this coming", I more or less gathered that he was referring to the video recording that they had just obtained. Mal intents to make sure that it gets out into the public's hands, and there's no way the Allience could see it coming 'cause they don't even know it exitsts. And that ties in with all the stuff about Book's death giving him a purpose as well. From the moment he gets that recording he know's exactly what he has to do. And it ties into the whole "can't stop the signal" thing too.

Links links links. Keep posting stuff here, I'm lovin' every bit of it!

Mike
www.penickart.com

KIORIA

Monday, October 17, 2005 5:32 PM

spoilers, of course

I agree with most of the stuff said here, but I've not seen many people draw the same parallels I started seeing on my second viewing of the movie. UNICORN got some of it with saying the whole movie was telling the network to go shove it.

I see the entire movie as a kind of parallel to what happened with the series. Off to a rocky start, almost didn't make it off the ground - apathy causing a horrible loss - a few dedicated soldiers (us browncoats) trying their darnedest to get the word out to everyone... Wash was brave, Wash was heroic, Wash was funny and excellent at what he did - but BOOM he's gone. That's the death of the show itself. The fight following that being our insane struggle to get the thing we loved back in whatever way possible, and finally we DID get the signal out...but people have to be watching to notice.

We patched ourselves up and kept flying. And it was love, as per Mal's speech at the end, that kept the whole concept in the air when it should've fallen down. I believe (as someone else did say) that's Joss's speech and "thank you kindly" to us for our support. What do you guys think?

QUEENOFTHENORTH

Monday, October 17, 2005 5:43 PM

Okay, first thing in response to Unicorn's posts about Miranda: those are interesting theories, although Miranda could be something mythological too. Most of the planet names in the 'verse have mythological backgrounds: Persephone being a Greek goddess, Bellerophon is also from Greek mythology and I'm sure there's more examples, I just can't think of them.

Then, about the movie itself: I think that this movie is so deep, you could watch it ten times and still not get everything, which is part of what makes this movie so great. I agree with most of the double meanings I've seen posted here, except for No. 2 "You won't see this coming." Although it could be true, because certainly none of us saw Wash's death coming, I don't think Joss would be that mean. I think that it was just about the Reavers and that's that.

I also find the time-traveling theory very interesting. It could fit. I certainly think that Book was an operative at some point. It definitely gives me something to think on!

We're pretty much just giving each other significant glances and laughing incessantly.

ASARIAN

Saturday, February 18, 2006 1:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fireflyfan70:

I agree with the first and 3rd idaes but not the second. When Mal said they won't see this coming I think he was referring to the Reaver fleet.

Yes, absolutely.

Quote:

I do have another double meaning that I think has been overlooked tho. Early in the movie when they are getting ready for the heist at the trading station, Mal asks River if she understands her part in this. She relpys to him "Do you?"

To me that statement had more than one meaning. River asking Mal if he understood his part in what to come( the rest of the story) and also her role in the big picture, not just the heist.

Good one, too. I think you're right.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

ASARIAN

Saturday, February 18, 2006 2:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by iamaleafonthewind:

The only thing I think I could really add at this point is that when Mal says that "they won't see this coming", I more or less gathered that he was referring to the video recording that they had just obtained. Mal intents to make sure that it gets out into the public's hands, and there's no way the Allience could see it coming 'cause they don't even know it exitsts. And that ties in with all the stuff about Book's death giving him a purpose as well. From the moment he gets that recording he know's exactly what he has to do. And it ties into the whole "can't stop the signal" thing too.

This is the part I would have to disagree. :)

Mail is explaning about Mr. Universe, and how he can put the signal on every screen for worlds. But then Zoe says: "It's a fair bet the Alliance knows about Mr. Universe. They're gonna see this coming." And, of course, they DID see it coming; cuz the Alliance and the Operative were lying in wait for Mal and his crew at Mr. Universe's little asteroid (or whatever that is). Moreover, the Operative, at that time, had already infiltrated the place and killed Mr. Universe.

What they did NOT see coming, of course, was Mal's downright brilliant plan to use "our one bitty cannon" (Jayne) against a Reaver ship, to then get the heck out there, and have the whole gorram Reaver fleet on their tail to battle the Alliance.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

SAVEWASH

Saturday, February 18, 2006 2:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by derangedmilk:
Very appropriate and in adding "Watch me soar" gave his death a very liberating almost upbeat note despite that my stomach is still in knots two days after seeing it and the scene made me so emotional I was unable to go to the second showing i'd intended. I'm still looking for my "Wash's death support group" made up of browncoats who liked the movie, everyone who seems to be affected by it as much as myself has turned against the rest of the film because of it.
-e

Sign me up! I think I actually yelled, "NO!" and looked around the theatre to see who was with me. (Note my alias above.) Then I went home and got very morose, so much so that I couldn't recommend the movie to anyone for several days until I calmed down. I'm still not over it, but at least I can recommend the movie because the rest of it rocks! If I ever meet Joss, the first word out of my mouth will be, "Why????" (I've heard his explanation and it makes sense, but it doesn't make me feel any better.)

"Did he just go crazy and fall asleep?"

DERANGEDMILK

Saturday, February 18, 2006 6:55 AM

Funny you should respond to that now. I just got back from a showing of Serenity at the free student theatre on campus and right afterward one of the RAs in my building who I knew was a huge Firefly Serenity fan walked up to me, and mind you this is a big guy and a huge heavy metal fan, and says, "Man, I still get choked up at wash's death. Everytime."
At that moment, after seeing the movie with a ton of newbies who totally got it and were applauding and laughing throughout, I was so happy to be a browncoat. I could totally empathize with what that guy was saying to. I replied, "I know! Everytime, for the minutes leading up to it and afterward my heart beats painfully fast."
It was great to have someone else completely understand the way you feel about something. Especially something you love.
So, the short of it is: support groups out there man.
-e

"Storms getting worse."
"We'll pass through it soon enough."

SAVEWASH

Saturday, February 18, 2006 7:44 PM

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Despite my best efforts so far, I don't have any fellow browncoats in this little town where I live so when I was so upset about Wash's death, I had no one to talk/cry/shout to. (My spouse usually left the room when I mentioned it.) What a difference it's made to read all the posts from people who felt the same way! That really helps.

And I give Joss Whedon full credit for creating characters that make me feel this way. So often you care in a temporary, superficial way about characters in a TV show or movie, but Joss makes you really care. I thought I must be crazy to care about a fictional character that much, but at least I'm not alone!

Thanks again, everybody, for your support and understanding.

DERANGEDMILK

Saturday, February 18, 2006 7:52 PM

Glad I could help.
You're totally right, it really is a credit to the Jossanator. Sure I feel a little sad when Spock dies at the end of Wrath of Khan or I get a little teary eyed at the end of Field of Dreams, but I don't go on caring about it as much as with these characters. The man is brilliant, I can only hope to be able to write as well as him one day.
Also, thought I'd mention another BDM double meaning while I was here. At the end of Serenity when the Operative says, "Its not over you know." I felt in the instant before he went on talking about the alliance coming after Mal that it was Joss saying something to the fans, that the story isn't over yet, the movie might be, but the story isn't. Just what I thought though.
-e

"Storms getting worse."
"We'll pass through it soon enough."

SERENITYSLITTLEANGEL

Saturday, February 18, 2006 9:29 PM

I always thought that Book's line:

"No. I don't."

was more of a foreshadow that he was going to die. He doesn't have to tell Mal someday, because he doesn't have that day.

Quote:
Also, thought I'd mention another BDM double meaning while I was here. At the end of Serenity when the Operative says, "Its not over you know." I felt in the instant before he went on talking about the alliance coming after Mal that it was Joss saying something to the fans, that the story isn't over yet, the movie might be, but the story isn't. Just what I thought though.

I thought that too!!

----------------------------
20 conversions and counting!!!

FOLLOWMAL

Saturday, February 18, 2006 9:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by derangedmilk:
Also, thought I'd mention another BDM double meaning while I was here. At the end of Serenity when the Operative says, "Its not over you know." I felt in the instant before he went on talking about the alliance coming after Mal that it was Joss saying something to the fans, that the story isn't over yet, the movie might be, but the story isn't. Just what I thought though.

Thanks for this thread coming back guys, I have been thinking about this a lot in this last week, while the rumors have swirled and been crushed, etc.

There are a lot of times in the BDM that I think it's Joss talking to us. The love speech at the end, is I think Joss telling us that the movie was kept in the air so to speak, because of our love and their love ( cast and crew) and he found a way to express that.

Felt the same way about the Operative saying the above. I think Joss told us it isn't over... we still have more stories to come.

I think my sig line is another instance, Joss just put the words in Mal's mouth. I take it literally. I know that's a little daft, but I know from what I've read that Joss has meanings within meanings in his writing and I think he's telling us to hold the line.

I am heartened by that.

" You hold. Hold til I get back." Mal