It CAN'T be true!!! major movie spoilers

POSTED BY: engineangel
UPDATED: Sunday, March 26, 2006 06:58
VIEWED: 46053
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ENGINEANGEL

Monday, October 3, 2005 11:51 AM

DON'T READ ANY FURTHER IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THE MOVIE OR YOU DON'T LIKE SPOILERS!!!!!!

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am just crushed ... i understand why book died. his last words got mal to go to miranda and do what he needed to do to get there, when he otherwise wouldn't have even tried nor would he have gone to such great lengths as to desecrate his ship to get there. This doesn't mean that I am a fan of his dying, but I do understand where it's coming from. Also, if one person didn't die the movie wouldn't have been as spectacular.

BUT Wash had absolutly no possible reason to die, except if Joss was setting up for the next movie where it's all about Zoe questioning what she does and stuff. but i don't like that explanation!!! My father is a writer and although he praises Joss for being brave enough to kill Wash off (it is hard to hurt or kill one of the characters you have created), he agrees that there was no reason to do it.

I think it may relate kind of to what Tara's death did to Willow (in Buffy). It pushed her over the edge. But there were other ways to push Willow over the edge without killing a much beloved character. Just like that is true, so is this. Wash could have been wounded in the arm by that thing or anything else cound have happened.

For all those Browncoats out there who are saying, "Yeah it was a punch to the stomach but i'm getting over it and everyone else should too," you don't seem to realize just how much this death has hurt us. At least to me, and many other browncoats, the family that i watch on the tv or movie screen has come to be part of my family in a way. If you're mother or brother or wacky uncle (as may well be the case) suddenly dies, you're not just going to get over it. This was a major part of my world and Zoe's world.

Now get me straight, this is not a hate-filled rant. This is not directed at Joss (how can i hate Joss when he's brought me Buffy and Angel and Firefly and Serenity). If I am Forced to look at this situation logically, this was his show and it was his right to do what he wants to do to the characters. That doesn't mean that i like logic or am going to abide by it. LOGIC SUCKS!!!!

I went to see this movie 2 times this weekend and both times i cried ... a lot. the second time i went i came armed with tissues. The first time i watched this movie on friday, the shock was just way too much for me. I mean he was impaled. THe second time it wasn't a shock but it was still horrible. And right in the middle of a sentence!

so browncoats, i need your help. I'm trying to figure out a way that Wash can come back. the obvious ones are cloning or an android but i would rather not see that. The best one that I've come up with at this time is that Wash somehow (and i don't know how-that would be up to Joss) comes back as a ghost that only River can see. The problem is i want the real wash back, but he was impaled. How are we going to gety around that?

well, please travelers. help me find a way to bring wash back!!!

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

EMBERS

Monday, October 3, 2005 12:49 PM

I'm surprised that you, and particularly your Father, can't see how

Select to view spoiler:

Wash's death altered the emotional atmosphere of the last 20 minutes of the movie.
Book's death we saw coming, we weren't even surprised, it was a 'movie death'.

But when Wash died all of a sudden all bets were off, anyone could be killed off.

When Zoe or Kaylee or Simon were injured we were on the edge of our seats feeling that Joss could take another of our heroes away from us. Even River could have died ... because this was suddenly a VERY dangerous world and getting in the way of brutal forces like the Alliance and Reavers is seriously scary stuff.

This is no longer a safe TV episode where everything will be alright in the end,
clearly everything will NOT be alright ever again.

JASONZZZ

Monday, October 3, 2005 10:06 PM

I guess Spoiler is as what Spoiler's are...

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CHRISISALL

Monday, October 3, 2005 11:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
I'm surprised that you, and particularly your Father, can't see how Wash's death altered the emotional atmosphere of the last 20 minutes of the movie.

embers, you're right on the mark- I hate, Hate, HATE that Wash was killed...but I support Joss' decision to make it so. It wasn't a 'fun' decision for him to make, I'm sure, but a bold and realistic one.
When deaths occurred in Matrix 3, for example, I ended up resenting the writers for pulling a needless 'Shakespear' on us ( "Hey, what do we do now?" " I know, let's KILL everyone, that will make it an important statement!!" " Yeah, worked for Shakespear!"); however, in Serenity, the need for loss was there. The story was too important to sugar-coat it.
( Just hope Wash didn't leave his Katra lying around in someone...)

No Genesis Chrisisall

FALLENANGEL

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 6:47 AM

I loved the movie! I mean, I laughed and cried, really cried when WASH WAS KILLED!!! If I could change anything, ANYTHING about that movie it would be not getting Wash killed. The whole movie was FANTASTIC and AWESOME but it just twisted my gut that Wash was killed. I cried!I literily bawled. It just broke my heart. If there's gonna be a sequel( there better be.) I don't care how they do it, they better bring Wash back or some violence is going to ensue!

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
" I am a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar." -Hoban 'Wash' Washburn.

ZMANN966

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 7:09 AM

Okay...

Maybe the Wash's actor (Alan Tudyk) either wanted out of the series or had other things to do (doubt it). But the easiest way to have a show lose a character is kill them off.. (I screamed when it happend, had popcorn chucked at my head...)
You'd have to ask Mr. Tudyk or Mr. Whedon...

Awesome movie though...
I laughed, I cried... I wish Wash hadn't of died... woe is me.

"Describe Interesting..."
"Oh God, Oh God, We're all gonna die?"

BARCLAY

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 7:46 AM

I'm glad Wash died.

Let that sink in.

I loved the character of Wash. I loved Firefly. I am no less obsessed or caring for any part of the Verse than anybody else.

But how many times have you seen a movie, everyone gets away scot free, or one character has a tragic death, like Book's, full of obvious meaning and purpose, and think "Yeah, like that's real."

Of course, we go to the movies to pretend we're somewhere else. We, generally, don't want movies that remind us of the perils of living, cause we paid good money to escape that. Forget that these are the best films.

As noted above, Wash's death creates suspense throughout the entire film beyond that point. Is anybody safe? Nope. If there's a sequel, is anybody safe? Nope.

But that's not even the best part to me. This was Wash's only way to die a hero. He just performed a miraculous landing, saving the ship and crew (mostly). If he dies in battle, it looks like ineptitude. But dying in the manner he did, it's the best death the character of Wash could hope for.

And thank you Joss for that. Because, while truely shocking in my first viewing, the second time, all of this becomes clearer. With one Reaver Telephone Pole through the chest, the entire world of Serenity is flipped upside down. Brilliant.

Now Joss, please please please please please keep him dead. I loved Wash, too, but bringing him back, in any non-flashback, non-River's crazy mind way, just cheapens this brilliant fitting death.

"You are on the Global Frequency."
http://www.frequencysite.com
http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com

JONSP

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 7:49 AM

Wash's death also made what they were trying to do BIGGER. It ramped the emotional power of the climax through the roof. This was important. This was major. It was more dangerous than anything they had done before, and it might just demand their lives. Wash's death upped the stakes of the climax and, as has been pointed out, upped the tension by shattering our security, our movie-sense that the crew might take a beating but in the end they'd come out of it okay. All of a sudden, anyone could die. There was actually a point when I seriously started to wonder if any of them were going to make it out alive. That rarely happens to me in movies, and I liked it. It was some brilliant writing on Joss's part. So Wash's death was horrible, and more than slightly devastating, but I think it was necessary and fitting.

RAKARR

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 8:12 AM

Wash's death was a total shock and one of the big twist in the movie wich has effected the future of Firefly forever.

Also his death really changed the tone of the movie. It was like they were safe and out of harms way that one moment, but then BLAM! Reavers get Wash. After that moment I really was worried about Zoe when she got slashed in the back. Then really worried about Kaylee when she got hit by those 3 darts. Then worried about Simon when he got shot. Honestly I was most worried about Kaylee cuz I thought she actually did die at first from those darts. Really wasn't sure till that scene was actually over. So the death of Wash really set the tone for that scene. That scene wouldn't of been nearly as good imo if Wash or one of the crew didn't die.

Also imo Wash dieing and how he died how it was so unexpected is just an example of wonderful writing imo. And it will really give a new twist for the future of Firefly probably getting a new crew member unlike the other characters and unlike Wash. Just gives room for a new personality to be aboard Serenity, or even give River a new role to play. Really I'm wondering where they will go with River in the future?

Anyways I praise Joss for killing Wash, even though it's sad to see him go. I can fully understand some ones feelings about his death if Wash is their fav. Hell if he was my fav I'd maybe be saying the movie sucks and I'd cancle my order of the Firefly DVD set. Well maybe.... I can kinda compare this with Mortal Kombat. In the game Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance my fav character, Liu Kang is killed off. I pretty much threw my fav game franchise of all time that I've been playing since I was 5 or 6 years old just cuz my fav char was dead. Even started to hate my fav game franchise. So I can understand how some feel about Wash.

"I am a leaf in the wind."
Big Damn Fansite - Where the Browncoats gather.
http://www.freewebs.com/bigdamnfansite

MADRIK

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:56 AM

Sitting on the edge of my seat, leaned over, not blinking, I was in awe the entire film. When Wash was impailed, I jumped. I leaned back... I took a total blow.

See, I've always put myself into Firefly and if I would be a character, I would be him. His personality is a lot like me and I'm a pilot myself (and a damn good one ;) ). I love women that can kick ass, a different race and marriage! I'm just as laid back and sarcastic as he is.

And seeing him actually die, I took a gulp and was overcome with worry for the rest of the crew. Just as mentioned above, I was thinking the crew to be more vulnerable.

The point is, I agree with Wash's death. These people are amazing but they're not invincible. The Alliance took casualties, the Reavers did, the common people did and the crew of Firefly did. It's war - there are always casualties. The earlier explainations were a lot better but just think of it that way. I really really don't like the android or the clone idea.. that is just a desperate attempt to bring back Wash from the dead which is just corny and unrealistic.

Since everyone loves Wash, it was the most impacting emotionally. It's something worse taking in.

PS I love the part when Kayle gets an enormous will to fight after Simon telling her that he wants to shag her. "I'm gonna LIVE"

--Madrik

REALLYKAYLEE

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 11:16 AM

i was in the middle of "that's my bab-" when it happened. i cried and hated the movie for the next 12 hrs. but then i talked to jacqui. she explained it ALL! and for that she gets to go to the 'special' heaven.
find her!

shakespeare: more words than God.

SKYSCRAPER

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 1:31 PM

Well… part of the reason we love these characters are because they are written to be humans. They aren’t super, although most have some skill in fighting, or at least lots of firearms… and things that go boom. What we really love about these characters are that they’re human and a family. And sadly, families have losses. Wash still went down a hero. He finished doing the impossible. Not everyone walks out of the impossible. For that, there is 95% of dumb Hollywood action flicks. We love these characters, because we believe they may or may not get out of the impossible. People die for no reason. Some trip on shoelace. Most die by no fault of their own. Whedon made these characters human, which is one of the many reasons we love them. Wash was my favorite character and I’ll miss him.

But on the sneak preview I watched, and the 2 times this weekend, each time people gasped out when Wash and Book died. Each time I saw it, it hurt. And, even though I accidentally ran into a spoiler that mentioned Wash would die months ago (still upset about reading that spoiler) it still shocked it me. I don’t see those reactions in Star Wars and most other movies. I daresay, Titanic is the only one that comes the closest. There may be more, but the point is, most movies don’t make you believe in a character.

As for Book’s death, while I didn’t like seeing him go, I liked that he died not telling his secret or past. To me… that’s realistic. People die with secrets all the time.

… But seldom do secret die with them.

The family we’ve watch will continue to grow and adapt like most every family does. It might be a rough road at first, but it’s the only one to take to a smoother paved road. If you want a movie where the people do the impossible and everyone keeps walking away happy, or die and return to life, go watch the Star Trek. Joss isn’t going to insult us with that. Neither is he afraid to muck up a system, even his own system.

--------------------------------

Once, just once, I want things to go according to
the gorram plan!

DERANGEDMILK

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 2:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by reallykaylee:
i was in the middle of "that's my bab-" when it happened. i cried and hated the movie for the next 12 hrs.

You and me both sister! But now after talking to some people and thinking it over, I'm just more anxious to get a sequel so I can see what happens next and in what fashion he returns(hopefully the hawian shirt fassion). The more I think about it the better the movie gets. Can't wait to see it again. It still sucks and we'll all miss him but hey, we're still flying. That's Enough.

-e

P.S.It'd be cool if Haken created a subpage(like the blue sun room) that is a mermorial to Wash and Book.

CYBERSNARK

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 2:13 PM

Based on the final scene, I'd say River's gonna be the new pilot (assuming she stays as lucid as she appears). Of course, she is psychic, and Wash spent a lot of time in that cockpit. If there's likely to be a ghost, that's where she'd find it.

I can already see the scene in the sequel:

Wash is giving River flying lessons --warning her about the wobbly starbord engine (don't trust it in heavy manoeuvres, just shift thrust to port-side). River is talking back (a two-way conversation).

Camera swings away, as Mal enters, leading a client and avowing the professional skills of his expert crew. River laughs at one of Wash's jokes, the camera swings back to see River chattering and carrying on with empty air.

The client looks confused, Mal goes "huh" and quickly turns the very wealthy and respectable client around and leads him away from the crazy girl.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

CELTICGIRL264

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 2:17 PM

My friends and I counted down the days and could not wait till the movie came out. That night we went to the theater and watched the movie without blinking. We were extremely sadden by the death of Wash. He was by far all our favorite character. One of us wrote this about Wash.
“This is the crappy town where you’re a hero. We love everything about your from your plastic dinosaurs to your leaf-like piloting. Yes, we even love those Hawaiian shirts and that mustache. You and Zoë were perfect for each other. I remember once in flight school, you were laconic…. You’re the shiniest pilot in all the ‘verse.”
We loved the movie and thought it was wonderfully crafted and loved the wit and seriousness of the movie. I hope it turned many people who were not fans of the show into fans. There were a couple of things that made me upset and that were the setup of the world and characters. In the movie you did not realize that Inara was a companion and that Inara and Mal were not in a relationship before this movie. I guess to some it wasn’t important, but me being a fan of the show, it was important to me. I hope that Joss will make a sequel because it would make up for killing Wash and Book. I am one of biggest fan of Joss and watch all his shows and know all the things that he likes and that is what my last statement pertains too. My last statement is that Joss likes sex robots a little too much and he likes to kill people when they are the happiest.

ZEEK

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 2:55 PM

I figured it out. Wash won't come back as a ghost or anything. He'll come back as Mr. Universe's sex bot.

River has a subconscious power to transfer other people's consciousness. She didn't realize she did it but she sent Wash's consciousness into the sex bot. Wash is lost and confused in his new body but will slowly emerg and have to find his way back to Serenity. It will be a wacky tale of adventure. I see Washbot and Serenity barely missing each other 3 or 4 times. Then in the end Wash gets back and Zoe has already moved on and we're sad.

Luckily I've never been able to predict what Joss will do next. So, don't get too worried about that storyline for Serenity 2.

TRANSYU

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 3:07 PM

There was another post that I had read on another site that tried to come up with some logical reason for Wash NOT to be dead. Now it may be a bit of a stretch for some, but it gave me enough hope that I plan to see the movie another 10 times. Was too heartbroken to go back after seeing the 'SCENE' initially.

Basically, after he was impaled, everyone left the ship in a hurry (fleeing Reavers and the like). Now, Reavers would not mess with Wash as he's already 'dead'. So he stays pinned there for a bit. Who happens upon the scene? Why the Alliance, hot on the Reavers (and the crew's) tail! We allready know from the 'Message' episode that there is some pretty radical medical technology available (organ replacement/reconstruction and the like), plus the human brain retains a charge for a good long while after the body is declared to be dead. They could have rescued his body during this time and evaced him out for interogation or something (not sure why myself, but I'm sure Joss could come up with a compelling reason). They may have informed the Operative, or they may not. After he was discovered to not be the Alliance's man anymore, that tidbit of information could/would have been kept from him.

I HOPE that we'll see Wash back in some form or another. I also trust Mr. Whedon to not change the significance of his death or make it seem cheesy. He may or may not be the same man we remember, but I hope he turns up in Episode 2: The Search for Wash.

Keep on flyin'

KIZYR

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 3:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barclay:
But how many times have you seen a movie, everyone gets away scot free, or one character has a tragic death, like Book's, full of obvious meaning and purpose, and think "Yeah, like that's real."

Exactly!

That's why Wash's death was so significant. Whedon is brilliant at creating realistic, deep, human characters. Book's death was dramatic, but... well, drama isn't always realistic. We had gradual time to prepare.

Wash died in the heat of battle. His death was sudden, harsh, and real. That's why fans are reacting to it this way. You get no time to prepare for his death, you get no time afterwards to console yourself, unless you want to join him in the afterlife.

One person in the theater I was in just yelled out "no!" when that happened. It's all you can do when someone dies so... realistically.

Keep in mind... Book is my favourite character, always has been, always will be. But I managed to handle his death much better simply because I could see it within a fictitious environment. It was harder to do that with Wash. That, and, by that point, I was scared for the rest of the crew. I was on edge the most when Kaylee got those two darts to the neck, because I knew I couldn't handle another death at that point. And I'm usually fine with movie deaths!

Wash's death was shocking... but I was surprised at my own reaction to it. I mean, the only movies I've gotten choked up at in the past have been based on history (Schindler's List and Amistad, to be specific). This was the first time a completely fictional character's passing got to me this way.

And that's why I've only seen the movie once. It'll be hard to handle it a second time 'til I'm ready. KF

~Kaiser Farooque

ZOE: Preacher, don’t the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?
BOOK: Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps...

CEDRIC

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 3:15 PM

I figure anyone who has gotten to this point in the thread is not scared of spoilers, so I'm not going to do anything funky to this post.

I hurt when Wash died also, but I want to tell this story to put it in perspective.

A friend of mine recently lost her husband to cancer. When she talks about looking forward to seeing the movie, it makes her sad because her husband won't be able to go. He was really looking forward to it.

He was a lot like Wash. He was witty and sarcastic, more a lover than a fighter, and a genius when it came to piloting words across a page. The big difference is that he was a real, flesh-and-blood human being, not an illusion created by writers, actors, and camera operators.

I'll miss Wash, but I mourn my friend.

Let's keep this plot twist in perspective, folks . . .

"You can't take my show from me,
Because I've got the DVD."
www.BedlamBards.com
Ballad of Joss: http://mp3-postcards.com/listen/?888

DONCOAT

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 4:12 PM

Well said, Cedric.

CLICHEMOMMA

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 5:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Based on the final scene, I'd say River's gonna be the new pilot (assuming she stays as lucid as she appears). Of course, she is psychic, and Wash spent a lot of time in that cockpit. If there's likely to be a ghost, that's where she'd find it.

I can already see the scene in the sequel:

Wash is giving River flying lessons --warning her about the wobbly starbord engine (don't trust it in heavy manoeuvres, just shift thrust to port-side). River is talking back (a two-way conversation).

Camera swings away, as Mal enters, leading a client and avowing the professional skills of his expert crew. River laughs at one of Wash's jokes, the camera swings back to see River chattering and carrying on with empty air.

The client looks confused, Mal goes "huh" and quickly turns the very wealthy and respectable client around and leads him away from the crazy girl.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

I like your scenerio of how Wash (Alan Tudyk) might come back.

I too was stunned when Wash died, but thankfully, it happened suddenly. What got to me even more was the funeral scene. Seeing Wash's happy face on that tombstone and then watching Zoe walk between the rest of the crew - tears, many tears! Am I the only one that felt that way? I just wasn't prepared for that.

JONQUILL

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 5:11 PM

"When I go to war, you'll know the difference."

I'm sure that's a misquote, but it'll do.

Joss was asked why the movie wasn't called Firefly. He responded saying that Serenity wasn't Firefly. It was a totally different animal, and should be regarded as such. Anyone who's seen the flick can attest to that.

Wash's death wasn't simply a device to ramp up tension in the third act. True enough, after seeing him staked by the Reavers, those darts, bullets, and blades aren't props in scenes anymore, but real dangers to the characters we've come to love.

It left us all wondering if the crew would even see the light of day again. That alone drops a dollop of squirming tension into our bellies. But I don't think the "leaf on the wind" came to rest for that alone.

It's been said that someone needed to die to make this real. To make this mission more important. But why it's more important, what Wash died for, that's been flirted around.

Firefly was about survival. A crew on the raggedy edge trying to squeek by. Everything the crew does throughout the show is led, almost entirely, if not primarily, by the guiding principle of get to tomorrow. Mal holds to nothing but his crew. No principal, no government, no association, other that those who keep him and his boat in the sky.

Serenity is not about survival. It is a different beast.

With gun drawn, Captain Tight Pants, informs his crew that any of them stand in his way, and they will be shot down. His family is forfeit to his principle, for the first time we've seen. His claim that the run at Miranda is made to get some info to "steer clear" of this is probably just a cover. He's seen what the Alliance has done, and he intends to make a stand, and nothing will stop him. He goes to the point of desecrating Serenity herself, for this quest.

Firefly was about ducking out of the way. Serenity was about sticking your face into your enemy's gun sight and sticking your tongue out at him. Serenity was about making a change, because it needed to change, and that, invariably is more risky.

Mal may have set the course, but the crew knew this just as well. Jayne didn't leave despite his gripes, neither did Zoe, or Simon, or Wash. They accepted that mission and all of it's risks, giving up on just flying another day. They went to war.

Wash didn't die because we needed to be afraid. He didn't die because people do die in real life. He died because the crew of Serenity went to war, and that means sacrifice. At the risk of employing a tired cliche that the Bush Administration enjoys butchering: "Freedom isn't free." And the crew of Serenity chose to pay the price. Wash died a death of belief, as a hero.

Wash, you made me laugh, right from "This land." Thanks.

I hope you enjoyed my overstating of the obvious.

RIJPE

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 5:26 PM

I mourn Wash. I respect Joss' decision to kill him.

I'm glad that Wash died in a mission to create a better 'verse (or at least stick it to the Alliance). It was easier than parting with him because of a robbery job that went south.

ROBBS

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 6:29 PM

My wife (more out of loyalty than as a fan, although I'm still working on her!) accompanied me to see the movie and kept asking me what I thought afterwards. But I was so stunned by the deaths (we actually started to suspect it was all in Willow's brain, especially when she had to go back in the other room alone) that I couldn't really answer. I mean it was witty and dark, but I was too busy being stunned to fully appreciate it. The characters & show remind me of a roleplaying game and it was like a couple of your friends died in the game, but here they don't get to play later. Then, like everyone else, I started trying to figure out how to get the others back in. We also immediately thought about the possibility of cloning, the ghost angle (can you imagine Book 'advising' Jayne?) or somesuch. But I think the best non(well, mostly non. Maybe kinda-sorta)-cheesy method is this:

Remember that the movie is some significant amount of time later than the series. Stuff has happened and members have split. Also, the captain's relationship with the doctor has gotten worse (not that it was ever good, but still!). So what are the odds that the sequel (there had better be a sequel! If we all see it five times and bring dates(?) would that bring in enough?) will take place in between the epic movie storyline and the semi-episodic TV storylines? It allows the deaths to be vast and tragic, yet allows us another glimpse or two at the whole cast. It's also sneaky and very comicbooky (both of which are Whedonish/Whedonesque/Whedonsomething). Can't wait for the follow-up DVD special-release with 90 minutes of previously unseen footage!

"Mercy is the mark of a great man. Guess I'm just a good man. Well, I'm all right."

DIGIFICWRITER

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 6:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by engineangel:

I think it may relate kind of to what Tara's death did to Willow (in Buffy). It pushed her over the edge. But there were other ways to push Willow over the edge without killing a much beloved character.

Although this is way off-topic, I wanted to say that I really disagree with the assessment that there were other ways to drive Willow over the edge than killing off Tara. If you truly understand Willow's character and the way she viewed not only herself, but the world around her, you'd see that the death of somebody incredibly close to Willow was the only way to push her into doing what she does at the end of Season 6. It necessarily wouldn't have had to have been Tara, but outside of her, the only other character who was as close to Willow was Xander.

To pull this back on topic, while it sucks that both Book and Wash are dead, I'm of the opinion that they were not only both necessary deaths, but both serve a higher purpose than simply shaking up the status quo for the fans and for the characters. Book's death serves to make Mal's grudge against the Alliance intimately personal, and also drives him to do what he does at the end of the film after discovering the secret of Miranda. Wash's death, while not serving as grandiose a purpose, still serves a purpose because it not only sets up the idea that nobody is safe, it gives Zoe even more motivation to kick some Reaver ass. I've heard a lot of people talking about how they didn't feel that Zoe (or anybody else) grieves for either Book or Wash, but in the case of Zoe and Wash, that's completely false. Immediately after Wash is impaled, Zoe's about to abandon her 'ice-woman' demeanor and cry, but Mal calls her back to the mission at hand; since she can't express her grief through tears, Zoe channels it into anger and aggression, but without becoming reckless. She uses the battle with the Reavers as an immediate outlet for her grief, and later is able to grieve in a more traditional manner (although she'll never let anybody else realize it); she also shows that she's grieving through her dialogue with Mal in Serenity's cockpit when she says 'She's torn up, but she'll fly true'. She's talking about herself as much as she is Serenity, and is letting Mal know that he doesn't have to worry about her (which he is).

Take my love
Take my land
Take me where I cannot stand
I don't care
I'm still free
You can't take the sky from me
Take me out to the black
Tell 'em I ain't comin' back
Burn the land and boil the sea
You can't take the sky from me
There's no place I can be
Since I've found Serenity
But you can't take the sky from me

CHANNAIN

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 6:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Rijpe:
I mourn Wash. I respect Joss' decision to kill him.

I'm glad that Wash died in a mission to create a better 'verse (or at least stick it to the Alliance). It was easier than parting with him because of a robbery job that went south.

That's the best thing I've heard about Wash's death so far.

Thank you.

I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/Nora_Leverson
Live in Minnesota? Join the Group! Yahoo Group, that is...
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly

NINGJING

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 6:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zmann966:
Maybe the Wash's actor (Alan Tudyk) either wanted out of the series or had other things to do (doubt it).

Alan Tudyk is currently starring in Spamalot on Broadway. I'm sure he'd be available if a sequel were filmed.

Couldn't we just do a Dallas shower scene, pretend it was all a dream and have a do-over? It sucked on Dallas, but I'd accept anything to get Wash back.

MALICIOUS

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 7:14 PM

What gets me most is that I can no longer enjoy episodes of Firefly, knowing what I know. Every ep is now shadowed with the thought, "Wash dies in the movie......Oh, God, WASH DIES IN THE MOVIE."

Mal-licious

I'm going to add cursing and the hurling about of things to my repertoire.

EDISON

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 7:17 PM

Here are some Wash wallpapers to help you through. The first is an idea from my daughter. She was so wrecked after the movie that she decided to put off a second viewing of Serenity until the second weekend. Later she hunted leaves around campus to find "the perfect one" and paired it with Sean Phillips' Serenity cover on her wall. She said it made her feel better.
http://webpages.charter.net/matsuweb/xfer/leaf_on_the_wind.htm

Variations on a theme:
http://webpages.charter.net/matsuweb/xfer/memorium.htm

If Serenity continues, I think we'll see him again in some form or another.

Edison

PINGJING

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 7:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DigificWriter:
Quote:
Originally posted by engineangel:
Wash's death ... still serves a purpose because it not only sets up the idea that nobody is safe, it gives Zoe even more motivation to kick some Reaver ass. I've heard a lot of people talking about how they didn't feel that Zoe (or anybody else) grieves for either Book or Wash, but in the case of Zoe and Wash, that's completely false. Immediately after Wash is impaled, Zoe's about to abandon her 'ice-woman' demeanor and cry, but Mal calls her back to the mission at hand; since she can't express her grief through tears, Zoe channels it into anger and aggression, but without becoming reckless. She uses the battle with the Reavers as an immediate outlet for her grief, and later is able to grieve in a more traditional manner (although she'll never let anybody else realize it); she also shows that she's grieving through her dialogue with Mal in Serenity's cockpit when she says 'She's torn up, but she'll fly true'. She's talking about herself as much as she is Serenity, and is letting Mal know that he doesn't have to worry about her (which he is).

Before the movie came out, I posted here to say that I had been spoiled by the New York Times - they let slip in an interview with Joss that "a few characters" were going to die. Once I had heard that, I couldn't stand to wait a week. I needed to know who it would be, and so I went online and intentionally spoiled myself further. I'm not sure that was a good idea. On the one hand, I had time to prepare for their deaths. If I hadn't prepared, I think Wash's death would have put such a damper on the movie that I wouldn't be able to remember enjoying the rest of it. On the other hand, being spoiled takes away the purpose everyone else has been claiming - that you fear for everyone else's lives that much more. I knew at that point that everyone else was going to be ok. (Thank God - Joss don't you dare touch another one of them!)

But I don't think that's the only reason that Wash died. Like DigificWriter said, it lets Zoe kick some Reaver ass. And it gives the Reaver-ass-kicking so much more meaning. (I have to disagree with her not being reckless though. I think she was incredibly reckless, stepping past the crates they had set up as a barrier and standing near the entrance so she can tear the Reavers to bits. Jayne called her on that - he kept asking her to get out of the way, because she was blocking his target.)
Zoe gets an entire emotional arc that she wouldn't have gotten had Wash not died. She handled her grief so eloquently, through denial and rage, and *that* is what made the movie real for me. Not that anyone can die, but the way the others deal with it.

Julia

p.s. Someone mentioned on this thread or another that Kaylee and River are breaking down during the funeral scene. I was so distracted by the Harry Potter tombstones that I missed that. I need to see this movie again, if just to catch their emotional reaction.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME

MADRIK

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 7:38 PM

As Wash's brother, the Bible says I'm inherited to be Zoe's new husband.

CHRISTHECYNIC

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 7:44 PM

I want Wash back, but I don't want him to be resurrected, or be a ghost. I feel like that’s a disservice to Wash. Yeah, you died, but that doesn’t matter. I can just write a nice little plot device and now you’re back. Your death didn’t make any difference at all.

I hate things like that.

-

On the other hand someone said to me in the theater, “This is a different continuity, if the series comes back they’ll still be alive.” As far as I know there are no plans to bring the series back (even if this movie, and the one after it, and the one after that all do incredibly well.)

So two questions:
1 Is anyone talking about reviving Firefly?
2 If they are is it going to follow the movies, or ignore them?

BENNYO

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 7:57 PM

wash is dead... to bring him back would be stupid... all im concerned about who is going to do the comic relief

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 8:12 PM

The Firefly episodes give us what we don't have in real life; the ability to relive moments from before Wash was killed.
Take those episodes and rejoice that he IS alive in them! He can be alive whenever you want, that way.
There are those lost to me in the real world I just WISH I could do that with.

Wash and Book will always be with us.

Shepherd Chrisisall

RIJPE

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 8:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Edison:
Here are some Wash wallpapers to help you through. The first is an idea from my daughter. She was so wrecked after the movie that she decided to put off a second viewing of Serenity until the second weekend....
Edison

I had a similar reaction, though I was afraid I was letting my fellow Browncoats down.

Hats off to Joss and Alan for creating a character that we care so much about. He will live on in our hearts and those of his family onboard Serenity.

CLEANER

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 8:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zmann966:
Okay...

Maybe the Wash's actor (Alan Tudyk) either wanted out of the series or had other things to do (doubt it).

I also can't imagine that Joss would kill off a character without the actor actually asking for it or consenting to it.

But if your going to be stuck with a movie format from this point on rather than the realitively spacious time allowed by a series, there is a real advantage to getting the number of main characters down from 9 to 7.

"If wishes were horses we'd all be eating steak!!!"

KOZURE

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 8:56 PM

Sometimes people die for no reason, without fanfare, glory, recognition, or even a witty or pithy line in passing.

It's a testament to Whedon's stylized realism that his death was so shocking and affecting.

Also, as Zoe points out earlier in the film:

"Heroes are people who get other people killed."

(fantastic line - works on a lot of levels)

Kozure the Kamikaze Highlander

Proud Citizen of Canada-That-Was

CHRISTHECYNIC

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 9:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
The Firefly episodes give us what we don't have in real life; the ability to relive moments from before Wash was killed.
Take those episodes and rejoice that he IS alive in them! He can be alive whenever you want, that way.
There are those lost to me in the real world I just WISH I could do that with.

Wash and Book will always be with us.

Shepherd Chrisisall

I was going to say that, but I couldn't find words that made sense. You did a great job of doing just that.

EDISON

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 9:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cleaner:
Quote:
Originally posted by Zmann966:
Okay...

Maybe the Wash's actor (Alan Tudyk) either wanted out of the series or had other things to do (doubt it).

I also can't imagine that Joss would kill off a character without the actor actually asking for it or consenting to it.

In the Serenity official movie magazine, Tudyk says he recommended the idea to Whedon during the series. Tudyk also said he liked the way it happened without any "carry on without me" lingering. And Glass says Whedon maintains the possibility of a full cast in future Serenity efforts. Dead may be dead, but, hey, much of "Out of Gas" occurs in the past.

Edison

STAKETHELURK

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 9:56 PM

Quote:
Here are some Wash wallpapers to help you through. The first is an idea from my daughter. She was so wrecked after the movie that she decided to put off a second viewing of Serenity until the second weekend....

Quote:
I had a similar reaction, though I was afraid I was letting my fellow Browncoats down.

Waiting til the second weekend isn’t letting anybody down. The second weekend is probably even more important than the first, because it decides whether this film will hang around and grow or fade away. So, no worries. Just be sure you’re there come the second weekend. Same goes for everybody else.

As for bringing characters back, I doubt Joss will try to “resurrect” them. However, in the Buffyverse, death was rarely the end for beloved characters--and not just because you could bring them back as vampires or manifestations of the First or whatnot. Whedon’s used dreams, hallucinations, visions, and surrealism to let us see lost beloved characters yet again, and he is always effective at it. So we might see those things employed in a sequel. Plus, Serenity has something the Buffyverse doesn’t: holograms.

Picture something like this: it’s movie two and Mal has gotten involved in something very dangerous. Then he discovers Shepherd Book was a party to it (maybe it was the thing that drove Book to take the cloth) and that Book has left a series of holographic recordings for Mal to help him out. We see another side of Book, we get to see Book giving (admittedly one-way) counsel to Mal, etc. My example is kinda trite, but Whedon could use something like that to keep Book and Wash a part of the story. Whether Joss will do that in a sequel is another matter--but first we have to get a sequel, so spread the word and turn up at the second weekend.

MER

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:13 PM

I'm getting through...it'll take me a while to deal like with Tara's death in Buffy. Of course what would make it better is if Zoe's pregnant.

I think that Wash's death wasn't necessary. Usually there's a reason. Like the Haven townspeople death. It will stay like this until it's properly resolved.
It would be interesting to see how Zoe is in the next movie. It seems like her emotion is unresolved.

I can't but help think of her crying in her room at night behind everybody's back. River having Wash talk to her is a pretty good idea. Mal would come in while River's in midsentence, just to make her even more off.

When I saw Wash's tombstone I cried like a baby. I too thought his body could be missing or something. It's possible, but I dunno. They kind of cut out that important part out. Or hell, a mention of it.

JENNYZ

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 11:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by reallykaylee:
i was in the middle of "that's my bab-" when it happened. i cried and hated the movie for the next 12 hrs. but then i talked to jacqui. she explained it ALL! and for that she gets to go to the 'special' heaven.
find her!

I had the exact same reaction. I'm still kinda peeved about it, but slowly coming around.

SIRARIS

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 11:14 PM

I really want to hear what Joss and Alan say about this. Theres a quote on someones blog, about how Alan was all for Wash dying the way he did (don't remember the link for the blog). There's so many reasons why he died, or why he shouldn't have, but I know that Joss did it for a reason, and I also know the reason was not to hurt us as fans.

I always complain that in every movie, everyone gets away scott free without dying... well, I regret it now.

But I'll stick to what I've said since it happened... the great thing about creative license, is that you have it. Joss could make an entire season of Firefly that happens before Wash ever dies. It's all up to him, and he has my upmost trust and respect.

KAYLEEWANNABEE

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 11:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonquill:
Wash didn't die because we needed to be afraid. He didn't die because people do die in real life. He died because the crew of Serenity went to war, and that means sacrifice. At the risk of employing a tired cliche that the Bush Administration enjoys butchering: "Freedom isn't free." And the crew of Serenity chose to pay the price. Wash died a death of belief, as a hero.

Wash, you made me laugh, right from "This land." Thanks.

I hope you enjoyed my overstating of the obvious.

Wow, thanks so much for that. You made me cry. In a good way. :)

But it wasn't overstating the obvious...lots of people still don't get it, conditioned as they are by lowest-common-denominator pre-packaged, 100% polymerized junk TV and movies.

I love Joss because he makes me think...and then he slaps me (figuratively) upside my noggin and makes me feel.

MRSUNIVERSE

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 12:56 AM

Right, there's no structure to this, I'm just thinking out loud (well, you know what I mean)...
Generally, when you up the ante, someone dies, especially when it's a TV series to a movie. So one of the nine was going to go; I was prepared for that. But, for some reason, I never thought in a million years that it would be Wash. But I should have known.
This is gonna work as an indirect proof (any geometry students out there?). I'm just assessing who was likeliest to die. First, there's Mal. He was pretty much safe from the beginning (doesn't stop him from getting pretty beat up, though). You don't kill your main character, not if you want a sequel, not after the fans have worked so hard to bring him to the big screen. Then there's Zoe. Zoe is Mal's right hand woman and she adds girl-power. But also, she provides an important link to the past; if Mal were the only veteran of the war, then flashbacks would seem too introspective and distant. No, Zoe had to live. Jayne's main purpose is, obviously, comic relief, but also a much more important one: he is Mal's foil. Their constant struggle of power is essential drama, plus Jayne's thick-headed love of violence juxtaposes Mal's inner moral conflict. So Jayne wasn't going out. Inara's easy: don't kill your hero's love interest, not in the first movie, especially after they've just reunited. And if you do, make her sacrifice herself for him (but that's impossible to make non-cheestastic). Shepard died, and others have said why better than I can, so I'll leave it there. Kaylee, like Jayne, is comic relief, plus she's Zoe's foil. Zoe is always emotionally collected, while Kaylee's not so subtle. Actually, next to Wash (ohgodImisshimsomuch), I thought Kaylee the most expendable, as River is also a contrast to Zoe. If Simon had died when he was shot (and I thought at the time he was going to), it would have been redundant. His dramatic death would've echoed Book's far too much. Plus, I think it's important that River's slaughter of the Reevers was defensive, rather than an act of revenge. Speaking of whom, I also thought River was doomed, that she'd go out saving the 'verse. When she throws Simon's bag and gets dragged back by the Reevers, I thought that was the last we'd see of her. Guess not.
And so that leaves Wash. What I loved most about him was his relationship with Zoe: it's so rare you see a happy, working marriage on TV or in Hollywood, as this usually eliminates most drama (we saw Wash and Zoe's drama in "War Stories"). And here's the kicker, that negates everything I've just said. This death had to be totally random. It's like you guys have said, that's real. In real wars, you can't choose who's most expendable, you can't choose your last words, you can't choose how you go. It's random, and useless, and pointless, and unfair, and real. I'm also incredibly torn about whether I want Joss to bring him back. On the one hand, I find myself actually grieving for this fictional man. I feel like someone I know has died (and I have known that feeling; my stepfather died in Iraq a year ago. He hadn't been my stepfather long, but still...); if that's happened to anyone, then you understand how lost and numb it feels. And now I can't watch his scenes in Firefly without tearing up. I'd give anything to have him back (well, not anything, not in reality, but the sentiment's there). Vice versa, bringing Wash back defeats the purpose of his death: that there was no purpose. In real life, you can't snap your fingers and awake the dead. You can't have your psychic friend talk to them for you (or maybe you can, depending on what you believe). It's the same with the death in book five of Harry Potter (is this the wrong crowd to mention that in?). So there's the conudrum.
I have but one regret, one thing I wish Joss had done differently. Wash's death is just so...cruel. Not to him; thank god, he didn't see it coming and probably didn't feel much pain. No, I mean to us. I, at least, was pretty emotionally vulnerable at the time. I'd just seen Serenity take a major whupping,

WICKEDLESTER

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 1:01 AM

MADDIECOBB

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 2:40 AM

I too was devastated by Wash's death. And I think the HP reference is very fitting you have grown so attached to a fictional person that it hurts still to think they are gone probably forever.

I can't help but wonder though...Death as depressing as it is open's doors for life (especially in TV shows and movies). So when I think back to the Heart of Gold episode Zoe and Wash banter about having baby she says:

“And I'm not so afraid of losing something that I won't try havin' it.”

Hearing this today I tried my hardest to tear up quietly for my Husband who hasn’t yet seen the movie.
At the movie I thought about this when I realized that yes Wash was dead and Zoe (Oh my GOD in a DRESS!!!) would have to live with out him than I thought about what she said after that:

“You and I would make one beautiful baby.”

So (through my logic) Wash’s Death opens up room for a new life aboard Serenity.

This actually has played out in my head. Imagine everyone waiting on Zoe and not letting her get into trouble. Anyway I think I would be more okay with Wash’s death were there a chance for a Hoban Jr.

This is all just me hopin’ though.

ENGINEANGEL

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 2:53 AM

hey travelers, this is a long post because i haven't been able to get on for a while, so bear with me.

Quote:

Cybersnark wrote:
Based on the final scene, I'd say River's gonna be the new pilot (assuming she stays as lucid as she appears). Of course, she is psychic, and Wash spent a lot of time in that cockpit. If there's likely to be a ghost, that's where she'd find it.
I can already see the scene in the sequel:

Wash is giving River flying lessons --warning her about the wobbly starbord engine (don't trust it in heavy manoeuvres, just shift thrust to port-side). River is talking back (a two-way conversation).

Camera swings away, as Mal enters, leading a client and avowing the professional skills of his expert crew. River laughs at one of Wash's jokes, the camera swings back to see River chattering and carrying on with empty air.

The client looks confused, Mal goes "huh" and quickly turns the very wealthy and respectable client around and leads him away from the crazy girl.

I love it!!!!! That would be soooooooo cool! Thanks for giving me hope!!!

Quote:

written by TRANSYU
There was another post that I had read on another site that tried to come up with some logical reason for Wash NOT to be dead. Now it may be a bit of a stretch for some, but it gave me enough hope that I plan to see the movie another 10 times. Was too heartbroken to go back after seeing the 'SCENE' initially.

Basically, after he was impaled, everyone left the ship in a hurry (fleeing Reavers and the like). Now, Reavers would not mess with Wash as he's already 'dead'. So he stays pinned there for a bit. Who happens upon the scene? Why the Alliance, hot on the Reavers (and the crew's) tail! We allready know from the 'Message' episode that there is some pretty radical medical technology available (organ replacement/reconstruction and the like), plus the human brain retains a charge for a good long while after the body is declared to be dead. They could have rescued his body during this time and evaced him out for interogation or something (not sure why myself, but I'm sure Joss could come up with a compelling reason). They may have informed the Operative, or they may not. After he was discovered to not be the Alliance's man anymore, that tidbit of information could/would have been kept from him. I HOPE that we'll see Wash back in some form or another. I also trust Mr. Whedon to not change the significance of his death or make it seem cheesy. He may or may not be the same man we remember, but I hope he turns up in Episode 2: The Search for Wash.

ok. I also have to admit. that is a cool concept too. I don't get it all (just a bit confused) but the mechanical organs from "the message" being put into Wash as a prototype or something is a great idea!!

Quote:

written by STAKETHELURK
Picture something like this: it’s movie two and Mal has gotten involved in something very dangerous. Then he discovers Shepherd Book was a party to it (maybe it was the thing that drove Book to take the cloth) and that Book has left a series of holographic recordings for Mal to help him out. We see another side of Book, we get to see Book giving (admittedly one-way) counsel to Mal, etc. My example is kinda trite, but Whedon could use something like that to keep Book and Wash a part of the story. Whether Joss will do that in a sequel is another matter--but first we have to get a sequel, so spread the word and turn up at the second weekend.

now that's a good idea!!!!

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

JSTURGIS

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 3:57 AM

Wash's death was a kick in the pants and unnecessary, as engineangel said. I'm a guy - an OLDER guy -- and when he was killed I was shocked at first then just in disbelief. I refuse to believe it was Joss Whedon's choice to do this ... to me, it smacks of interference from other money types involved.

ENGINEANGEL

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 4:03 AM

way to go jsturgis!!!!!!!!!!

I really like the idea of Zoe having a baby. If we’re not going to bring Wash back that’s the next best thing.

hey, i've been hearing that the whole cast is going to come back for the sequel and trequel. Can anyone confirm that?

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

ENGINEANGEL

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 4:08 AM

Quote:

written by DIGIFICWRITER
Although this is way off-topic, I wanted to say that I really disagree with the assessment that there were other ways to drive Willow over the edge than killing off Tara. If you truly understand Willow's character and the way she viewed not only herself, but the world around her, you'd see that the death of somebody incredibly close to Willow was the only way to push her into doing what she does at the end of Season 6. It necessarily wouldn't have had to have been Tara, but outside of her, the only other character who was as close to Willow was Xander.

sorry everyone. This is still off topic but I really want to answer this. I disagree with you, DIGIFICWRITER. I think that there could have been other ways to push Willow over the edge but i also realize that tara had to be out of the way because she would have cushoned whatever happened to Willow. Tara always was willow's voice of reason and, not to mention, lover.

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

TMURRIE

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 4:27 AM

Ok, I don't know if this was mentioned above because I didn't read all of those posts because there was a large amount, so forgive me if I am repeating anyone's views, anyway.

Wash to live again? No. There was only one reason I didn't bawl my eyes out during Serenity, and that was because I was with my friend, and he would have told all my other friends about me crying, who would in turn make fun of me, and make me cry more since it would remind me of Wash. But enough about that!

I don't want him to come back in River's crazy mind(even though it's not so crazy anymore). If there's a sequel, I want it to be Zoe who goes crazy. I want her to screw up during a mission, I want her to completly just stare off into spare during a shoot-out, I want her to be so messed up by her husband's death, that it even affects the lives of everyone on board(Maybe she's flying the ship and nearly crashes it into a moon by mistake because she wasn't really paying attention, who knows!)

I want a scene where Zoe looks up and see's Wash smiling at her, and then it a shot of her looking quite happy, and then it goes back to the shot of Wash, but instead it's just Jayne eating a peach off his knife, or somesuch. I dunno, I just think that would be something hard to see, and yet very real.

I'm just talkin'

CLOCKWORK

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 4:32 AM

i don't know where else to post this. i stumbled upon this site via a search engine in a desperate attempt to find some solidarity. please excuse me if this is a little long, but i think some context might help.

i'm not a "whedonite" or whatever the phrase is. i've seen the first 4 or 5 episodes of Buffy (i plan on watching the whole series in order), but HATED the idea of the show for years. i thought the idea of Firefly was really stupid when i first heard it. i thought it was right in line with all those crappy Sci-Fi channel shows that i can't stand (Babylon 5, Stargate, Farscape, etc.). shows that pass latex face sculpture off as alien life. shows that are lazy and cliche and useless.

but last weekend i saw the first Firefly episode. the double length one. my wife and i since watched the entire series in about a week. i fucking LOVE it. the series is pitch-perfect.

we saw the movie last night. i really loved it, start to finish. no complaints, despite what i have to say below. again, pitch-perfect. but i'll be honest, when i watched Wash die i felt like i got punched in the stomach. and i have been feeling like shit since. my wife was upset, but not THIS upset. i just can't get over it. i had trouble sleeping last night, going through the scene over and over in my head.

i've probably seen hundreds of thousands of people die on screen in my life. video games, movies, TV, whatever. A Clockwork Orange is my favorite movie, it's not like i'm overly sensitive. but something about THIS death just makes me want to tear my eyes out scream at somebody, "IT'S NOT FAIR!" he didn't get to say goodbye, he didn't get to stand up for himself, he didn't get to make a CHOICE. he was just sitting there, and they had to leave him.

the rule is supposed to be, "live by the sword, die by the sword." well, i wouldn't have been terribly surprised to see Jayne die. or the captain, or zoe, or river. not because of anything to do with the story, but because they're warriors. but killing Wash just ruins me.

i've read all the comments above mine, and reading them has helped. but i'm not a "browncoat," so this kind of reaction just seems inappropriate to me. maybe i'm being to empathetic, or something. i don't know. but all iknow i was feeling great yesterday and now i feel like crap, and i want to feel better again. i want to think of the series as something that makes me happy, and 24 hours after seeing the movie that just seems too hard.

bla.

ENGINEANGEL

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 4:42 AM

Quote:

tmurrie wrote:
Wash to live again? No. There was only one reason I didn't bawl my eyes out during Serenity, and that was because I was with my friend, and he would have told all my other friends about me crying, who would in turn make fun of me, and make me cry more since it would remind me of Wash. But enough about that!

I don't want him to come back in River's crazy mind(even though it's not so crazy anymore). If there's a sequel, I want it to be Zoe who goes crazy. I want her to screw up during a mission, I want her to completly just stare off into spare during a shoot-out, I want her to be so messed up by her husband's death, that it even affects the lives of everyone on board(Maybe she's flying the ship and nearly crashes it into a moon by mistake because she wasn't really paying attention, who knows!)

I want a scene where Zoe looks up and see's Wash smiling at her, and then it a shot of her looking quite happy, and then it goes back to the shot of Wash, but instead it's just Jayne eating a peach off his knife, or somesuch. I dunno, I just think that would be something hard to see, and yet very real.

don't get me wrong. I want to see zoe's reaction, not to mention the rest of the crew's reaction to wash not being there anymore, but that can still happen, even if wash comes back. wash will just come back later in the movie so we can see everyone's reactions.

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

SPIXDON

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 4:52 AM

I hate the fact that Wash was killed. I'm sure that it did contribute to the ending of the film, but I really don't care. Wash was the guy that I always looked forward to when watching episodes. It was always, "oh, hey! Wash has a great line in this one!" or "Wash gets to do something awesome here!" and I'm going to miss that. He was my baby and his death made me actually think about walking out of the theater. (oh, and skyscraper - I ran into that spoiler months ago, too. I share your pain at being spoiled.)

And don't think that I am a one-day throw-away fan. I saw the The Train Job on tv and was hooked ever since. I went to the movie in costume. I have all nine main character costumes, and a reaver costume, and an alliance costume that I have made thatI lent out so others could go. When I say that I am a devoted fan, I am. The series is ruined for me now. Well, not ruined but certainly less enjoyable. I almost wasn't able to go see the movie again because I thought it would be too painful, but I ended up going again the very next day (I couldn't sit through it three times in a row as was originally planned) and I was suprised at how much I liked the movie. I had major issues with it the first time around (not just the fact that joss FRICKEN KILLED WASH) but the second time through, I really enjoyed the things that I had hated before. I even managed not to cry through Wash's "I am like a leaf on the wind" thing.

Okay, but getting to the original question asked, I have a couple of different theories. A) We could count the movie as a freaky dream - like The Phantom Menace. B) Maybe, when they got back to Serenity, Wash was still alive (just go with me on this one), and the doctor patched him up, and he was just fine. But - turns out, that fry cook job he was fired from (or any other thing...maybe Niska's still mad at him) makes him think that maybe it would be good if he faked his death and the reason that River and Mal were flying the ship at the end was because either he was still recovering, or he was tearing Zoe's clothes off. Or, maybe C) Something way better than I have come up with so far.

I do think that Zoe is pregnant though. It just seems to fit. Whether Wash is or is not coming back, I think that Zoe is pregnant.

or, I could be crazy.

KIZYR

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 5:00 AM

Re: clockwork, a couple things you mentioned really jived with my opinion, so I just wanted to chime in on that.

Quote:
Originally posted by clockwork:
i've seen the first 4 or 5 episodes of Buffy (i plan on watching the whole series in order), but HATED the idea of the show for years. i thought the idea of Firefly was really stupid when i first heard it. i thought it was right in line with all those crappy Sci-Fi channel shows that i can't stand (Babylon 5, Stargate, Farscape, etc.). shows that pass latex face sculpture off as alien life. shows that are lazy and cliche and useless.

but last weekend i saw the first Firefly episode. the double length one. my wife and i since watched the entire series in about a week. i fucking LOVE it. the series is pitch-perfect.

Now, I do enjoy some of the shows you mentioned (actually, all three). But I know exactly what you mean about the latex-as-real bit. And that's one thing I love so much about Firefly; it's set apart from other, typical Sci-Fi by how realistic it comes off. Sure, there's the terraforming and space travel, but otherwise it feels so much more human than other science fiction. Perhaps that's why the best elements of your classic Western fit so well within it.

It's also why Firefly is my absolute favorite series ever to have been on television.

Quote:
Originally posted by clockwork:
i've probably seen hundreds of thousands of people die on screen in my life. video games, movies, TV, whatever. A Clockwork Orange is my favorite movie, it's not like i'm overly sensitive. but something about THIS death just makes me want to tear my eyes out scream at somebody, "IT'S NOT FAIR!"

It's kind of like what I mentioned... Wash's death affected me unlike any other fictional character's death I've ever seen. Perhaps for slightly different reasons than you, but I still felt very, very dismal afterwards. I could hardly eat, even.

Now I can see why Athenians used to commit suicide during Ancient Greek drama before comedy was inserted. KF

~Kaiser Farooque

ZOE: Preacher, don’t the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?
BOOK: Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps...

TMURRIE

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 5:08 AM

I almost walked out the theater after Book's death, and when Wash came around to getting all stabbed like he likes to do (Oh that Wash, always stabbin himself), I actually stood up, literally, the guy behind me told me to sit down, I almost walked out, but thought that Wash might come back! He might just tear off his arm like that one hiker who cut his arm off when it was under a giant boulder.

And then I imagined him shooting a reaver in the head, before it devours Zoe, and then killing the rest of them with his newly fashioned robotic/reaver arm he magically patched up from scrap parts of Serenity, and random reavers he killed on the way. And THEN, just when you think he's actually dead at that funeral scene...BAM, he holds his hands over Zoe's eyes and says "guess who?!"

Yes, I actually thought it might happen. And the possibility of it happening was the only reason I kept watching. Wash's death has only recently been accepted by me, and for a few days I considered mass murder on my Firefly dvds. I lost all, read it, ALL my hope that Joss Whedon was an actual human being. But I had to live on.

Sorry that was so long, I just had to share my Wash-kicking butt fantasy with you all.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 6:13 AM

I loved that Wash died. It was totally unexpected. Even though someone with a loose tongue spoiled it for me before the movie started, I was still surprised when it happened. I know this will probably not be a popular opinion, but Wash was a throw-away. He had no story behind him. No swashbuckling attitude. No dark secrets. He was pure hero-support. Someone to fill the lulls in the episodes with a humorous retort. But with no episodes, Wash is really an expendable character. He’s Ensign Smith beaming down with the away party. It’s unfortunate that Wash was played by, arguably, the best actor of the whole bunch, and he will be missed, but his death served the story far more then this humorous platitudes ever could. Even though I was fairly sure, Joss wouldn’t kill off anyone else. I still found myself anxious at the injuries inflicted on the other heroes. And when River jump out into the Reaver-fest, I admit, I half-expected not to see her alive again. Furthermore, in future releases, whether they are on the big screen or the small, Wash’s death adds a whole new dimension to Zoe. My guess is that Wash would have been a deadman come some season finale anyway, if Firefly had lasted that long, given Joss’ uncontrollable tendencies to kill off heroes.

Truth be told, I think Book’s death was much more expensive. Book was just hero support too, but he had potential to add stories to the plot. On the other hand, any stories that Book might have contributed probably wouldn’t have risen to motion-picture level. So unless Firefly returns to tv, it’s debatable how much impact his death will have.

-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

FALLENANGEL

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 7:06 AM

Quote:
I too was stunned when Wash died, but thankfully, it happened suddenly. What got to me even more was the funeral scene. Seeing Wash's happy face on that tombstone and then watching Zoe walk between the rest of the crew - tears, many tears! Am I the only one that felt that way? I just wasn't prepared for that.

Nope, You weren't the only one. I wasn't prepared either. I cried even more during the funeral scene and seeing the tombstone and Wash's happy face... with that...cute smile. Oh, I think I might cry again.*runs off & cries..again*

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"I am a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."

-Wash.

SPACEMANSPIFF

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 7:07 AM

Needless to say again, but I loved Wash, too. Second fav character of the series. The woman behind me gasped when it happened. I was sure my friend in the seat next to me had hit me in the chest. I had to push it aside, just as the crew did, until the final showdown was done. Afterwards, thinking about it, I was able to put it into the perspective that helped me get through Buffy and Angel:

Joss hates people being happy.

Both his characters and his fans. What makes it worse is that he makes such great characters and stories that he has that POWER over us, to actually make us physicaly hurt or loose sleep or feel sick to our stomachs because a fictitious character dies. Wash. Book. Tara. Fred. Joyce.

My only solace is that Joss finds decent ways to have dead characters hang in there.

Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!

ENGINEANGEL

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 11:28 AM

Quote:

written by SPIXDON
He was my baby and his death made me actually think about walking out of the theater.

actually, I had the same feeling. I was just so shocked and saddenned that i couldn't get up if i wanted to.

Quote:

written by SPIXDON
The series is ruined for me now. Well, not ruined but certainly less enjoyable. I almost wasn't able to go see the movie again because I thought it would be too painful, but I ended up going again the very next day (I couldn't sit through it three times in a row as was originally planned) and I was suprised at how much I liked the movie. I had major issues with it the first time around (not just the fact that joss FRICKEN KILLED WASH) but the second time through, I really enjoyed the things that I had hated before. I even managed not to cry through Wash's "I am like a leaf on the wind" thing.

this is exactly what happened to me!!! I was quite disappointed in the movie the first time. Mal seemed way too harsh, river's witty sayings seemed kind of mechanical, and wash's death made it just impossible for me to enjoy the rest of the movie . but the second time i saw it ... WOW ... it was amazing. i still cried but i came armed with tissues that time. three times in a row was just too much for me since wash died, but i'm probably going to go this weekend and bring a friend.

Quote:

written by SPIXDON
Okay, but getting to the original question asked, I have a couple of different theories. A) We could count the movie as a freaky dream - like The Phantom Menace. B) Maybe, when they got back to Serenity, Wash was still alive (just go with me on this one), and the doctor patched him up, and he was just fine. But - turns out, that fry cook job he was fired from (or any other thing...maybe Niska's still mad at him) makes him think that maybe it would be good if he faked his death and the reason that River and Mal were flying the ship at the end was because either he was still recovering, or he was tearing Zoe's clothes off. Or, maybe C) Something way better than I have come up with so far.

A) too cliche and it takes away from Wash's death AND the whole movie. B) that undermines the end of the movie too. we want something that is going to make wash come back, but still make the end of the movie and in fact that whole great gorram movie matter. I'm in favor of bringing wash back as a ghost that only river can see.

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

SPIXDON

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 12:08 PM

Quote:

written by engineangel
A) too cliche and it takes away from Wash's death AND the whole movie.

I'm not talking about a Dallas-esque sort of thing, more of a let's-pretend-that-it-didn't-happen-and-maybe-it-will-go-away sort of thing. Maybe if, as a group, we decided, "hmmmm....no. Wash didn't die." and were united enough Joss would listen and make it go away? no? I'm delusional and thinking of things that could in no way make sense or work? okay. I'll accept that analysis. I'm grasping at straws here because I don't think that I am ready to accept the death of a character that I relate to and identify with on so many levels. I miss him. Very much. (yes, I know that I sound insane, but I have been with these characters from the very begining and you tend to get a bit attached. flans understand that sort of thing.)

HASLINGER

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 12:50 PM

Wash's death was completely apripori. I am glad it happened...a little hurt...but glad it happened. Had his death been typical MOVIE death, then I'd put the show down forever. Book was granted that honor. But in any story to make it more real you have to breakdown all perceptions. Think about this what do you really love about firefly? Most people I've asked have said the same thing over and over again....they had seen nothing like it. Well Serenity encompasses this same emotional response, and ups it.

R.I.P. HW

ENGINEANGEL

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 9:40 PM

Quote:

written by KYZER
Keep in mind... Book is my favourite character, always has been, always will be. But I managed to handle his death much better simply because I could see it within a fictitious environment. It was harder to do that with Wash. That, and, by that point, I was scared for the rest of the crew. I was on edge the most when Kaylee got those two darts to the neck, because I knew I couldn't handle another death at that point. And I'm usually fine with movie deaths!

everyone keeps saying that Wash's death made you fear for the other characters lives. Well, for me that wasn't true. I was afraid that something would happen, like someone might be maimed or something, but i knew we really couldn't lose anyone else or else there wouldn't be enough crew members for a good sequel. Maybe that's just me.

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

AINTWEJUST

Thursday, October 6, 2005 3:00 AM

I'm not sure why Joss did what he did. Maybe it was a cheap trick to put the audience on the edge of their seats for the finale, although I'd expect better treatment of a character from Joss. Over the years, I've come to respect Joss as a solid craftsman -- someone who understands the medium in which he works and uses it effectively.

When i was younger, I used to read Harlan Ellison's short stories. For all of their artistry, I often found myself angry at him as an author. Why? Because he would create characters, throw them into the deep end of the pool (metaphorically speaking) -- and then happily record their subsequent drowning.

As a writer myself, I have an unholy respect for my characters -- a love that some authors might find ludicrous. I don't believe they exist solely to advance the plot, anymore than human beings exist just to move along the action in everyday life. People are more than what they do, Sartre notwithstanding. I throw challenges at my people, and they respond as best they can. It is their reaction to the challenges that moves the plot. As a result of overcoming the challenges, they learn and grow, and then I throw harder challenges at them so they can learn and grow more.

But if you kill a character, it should be for something more than just for effect.

I didn't want Wash dead, ever. I certainly didn't want him killed to create a mood, or raise the level of dramatic tension.

Part of Joss's skill is his ability to create characters that transcend their existence as characters, and become people you feel you know. He facilitates an extension of the viewer's suspension of disbelief to the point where you'd love to sit down in Serenity's kitchen and spend time chowing down with this crew.

Wash was family, his fictitious status notwithstanding. To have him killed so precipitously, torn away without warning -- well, it's like watching an old friend step off the curb into the path of an oncoming semi. If Joss used him as a tool for establishing dramatic tension, it's even worse. Instead, it's like watching someone you trust SHOVE your old friend in front of the semi just to make you worry that someone else you love might be next.

Yes, Wash belonged to Joss. But he belonged to all of us too, because we gave him life by believing in him and the whole crew.

This being said, he's gone. Any attempt for Joss to bring him back to life would be no better than Spock's return from death in the Trek movie franchise. I can think of a neat way to bring him back that would be funny and touching and right for Wash -- as a ghost only River (and the audience) could see and hear, delivering ongoing commentary about the action without being able to take part. Even so, the empty seat at Serenity's table would stay empty. And his wry counterpoint to the "wacky fun" would go unheard, and unanswered, by the crew.

I guess the bottom line for me is this. Joss can do what he wants with his characters. But Wash was ours as much as he was Joss's, because we gave him life and believed in him. And even though Wash wasn't real. I will mourn his loss. The franchise isn't dead, and it promises to take some interesting twists and turns in the future (if there is one).

But the dinosaurs are silent, the Hawaiian shirts are packed away, and Zoe sleeps alone. Requiescat in pace, old friend. You will be missed.

Had my say, done my dance. The rest is dust and ashes.

"Big damn heroes? AINTWEJUST."

"Everybody dies alone." -- Mal Reynolds

BADGERS1

Thursday, October 6, 2005 3:30 AM

Yeh,I went to see it, and didn't expect any of the deaths that happened. I didn't expect the whole crew to be shot or beat up either, but it fit. That's the only movie I've ever cried at because of a scene. It took me two days to accept that Wash died. Although, I think it wouldn't have been the same if he didn't die. I was pretty speechless. I did think Zoe should have showed a little more care that her hubby got impaled by a giant spike. I don't care how war disciplined she is, that just wasn't cool. I always had the slight idea she only married him because he was the only guy who wasn't her captain or...well, Jayne.That just bothered me.

RIP Wash, Book, and Mr. Universe.

ENGINEANGEL

Thursday, October 6, 2005 3:32 AM

that was wonderful AINTWEJUST. it's what i've been trying to get across the whole time. And if i may say, it was a wonderful memorial to Wash.

Quote:

But the dinosaurs are silent, the Hawaiian shirts are packed away, and Zoe sleeps alone. Requiescat in pace, old friend. You will be missed.
Had my say, done my dance. The rest is dust and ashes.

Wash, you were the best Gorram pilot in the verse. rest in peace good buddy (and then come back!!!)

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

ENGINEANGEL

Thursday, October 6, 2005 3:45 AM

Quote:

written by BADGERS1
I did think Zoe should have showed a little more care that her hubby got impaled by a giant spike. I don't care how war disciplined she is, that just wasn't cool. I always had the slight idea she only married him because he was the only guy who wasn't her captain or...well, Jayne.That just bothered me.

The reason Zoe was like that was because of shock. She had just seen her lover and soulmate impaled in the middle of his sentence. She shows it later when they're all fighting the reavers. She goes out of the line and doesn't care if she gets killed. She's so intense in that scene. Zoe is and always has been a warrior woman. She keeps things bottled up. She knew that if she broke then, the crew probably wouldn't get through the fight.

Wash, you were the best Gorram pilot in the verse. rest in peace good buddy (and then come back!!!)

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

JASONZZZ

Thursday, October 6, 2005 9:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
He’s Ensign Smith beaming down with the away party. It’s unfortunate that Wash was played by, arguably, the best actor of the whole bunch, and he will be missed, but his death served the story far more then this humorous platitudes ever could. Even though I was fairly sure, Joss wouldn’t kill off anyone else.

Redshirts - my good friend Finn... We call'em redshirts... or if you liked Galaxy Quest "Crewmen #6" will do.

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DUEY

Friday, October 7, 2005 1:51 AM

I was devastated. I barely remember anything that happened after Wash's death. I wept like a child all the way home.

I had planned to go see the film a few more times on opening weekend but could not make myself emotionally do that. I almost threw away my DVDs because it hurt too badly to watch them.

It really, truly affected me. I honestly wonder how much of a cut in the film's box office was due to fans having too much of an emotional reaction to go see the film again. I know I couldn't.

I was upset at Book's passing, but he was redeemed after a long life. Wash. . .just killed me.

My grandfather was unexpectedly rushed to the hospital on Monday (Thank GOD he's OK) and I was confronted with the difference in pain for an fictional character and pain for a person in real life that you love-there is honestly no comparison. I bring that up because my reaction to Wash's death was so strong that I was honestly worried about my connection to a ficticious character. I cannot help but feel that the shot at Wash was cheap and unworthy. It hurts, and while I intellectually understand all the rationales proposed on this thread, I'm still pretty angry about it.

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled, and do not be afraid." John 14:27

ENGINEANGEL

Friday, October 7, 2005 4:12 AM

Quote:

written by CHRISTHECYNIC
I want Wash back, but I don't want him to be resurrected, or be a ghost. I feel like that’s a disservice to Wash. Yeah, you died, but that doesn’t matter. I can just write a nice little plot device and now you’re back. Your death didn’t make any difference at all. I hate things like that.

there are ways to bring a character back without it being cheesy or making his death not have meant anything. Remember, even if he comes back, we have to deal with Zoe's pain and the rest of the crew trying to get on without him before that. That's why i like the "ghost that only River can see" idea. We can see everyone's reactions and how Wash's death affects everyone.

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

ENGINEANGEL

Saturday, October 8, 2005 12:58 AM

Quote:

Written by ROBBS
Remember that the movie is some significant amount of time later than the series. Stuff has happened and members have split. Also, the captain's relationship with the doctor has gotten worse (not that it was ever good, but still!). So what are the odds that the sequel (there had better be a sequel! If we all see it five times and bring dates(?) would that bring in enough?) will take place in between the epic movie storyline and the semi-episodic TV storylines? It allows the deaths to be vast and tragic, yet allows us another glimpse or two at the whole cast. It's also sneaky and very comicbooky (both of which are Whedonish/Whedonesque/Whedonsomething).

i think that this might be fine for the tv series, but i don't like this idea as much as some others for the movie because as much as i want to see wash again, i want the firefly verse to move forward. i want to see what happens as time moves along.

please travelers. help me find a way to bring wash back or at least make his daeth make sense!

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

ZARNYWHOOP

Saturday, October 8, 2005 12:56 PM

Man, after Wash and Book are both killed I was half expecting Joss to kill Mal as well!

CHRISTHECYNIC

Saturday, October 8, 2005 2:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AINTWEJUST:
As a writer myself, I have an unholy respect for my characters -- a love that some authors might find ludicrous.

I think you have to have that love, if you don’t feel like they’re real than the readers won’t, if you don’t love them than the audience can’t. Also if you don’t care about them what write the story at all?

Quote:
I don't believe they exist solely to advance the plot, anymore than human beings exist just to move along the action in everyday life.

A good way to look at it. I agree.

Quote:
It is their reaction to the challenges that moves the plot.

The only way to look at it as far as I’m concerned.

Quote:
But if you kill a character, it should be for something more than just for effect.

Here is where the two of us disagree. I don’t think Wash died for effect. Just because you can not trace a death to a single action doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a point. I wish we could point and say, “This is why Wash died,” I wish you could say, “He died doing this so the others could live,” or something like that, but even though that didn’t happen doesn’t mean he died just for effect.

He died so that people could know. That may seem disconnected, but if River had died in her fight with the Reavers would it be any less abstract? What would you say, she died to save Simon? Well how does that add up? She would have died because Simon dropped the medkit, the door didn’t work properly, and no one had thought to make it so you could close it from the inside. How is any of that connected to saving Simon? It really isn’t. Not directly.

Yet had River died there people wouldn’t call it pointless, they wouldn’t say it was just for effect.

Wash died for a similar set of reasons, they intentionally brought the Reavers, they couldn’t get the backup on in time to make a more controlled decent, the ship turned making the cockpit face towards the Reavers, and the Reavers use spiky things. No less related to sending the signal than a faulty door is to saving Simon.

If you want to say that Wash’s death is just for effect then you can just as easily say that every death in every work of fiction is only for effect. Every violent death is a series of pointless coincidences, that’s how death is. The only death that couldn’t be avoided by a single variable being changed is old age.

The character Kyle from the series The Pretender died because he was one step too far forward to push his brother out of the way but in the perfect place to lunge in front of him and take the bullet in his brother’s place. That seems to be the kind of death people are complaining that Wash didn’t get, but it is no less pointless, if he had just been one step backwards they both could have lived.

Quote:
Originally posted by engineangel:
there are ways to bring a character back without it being cheesy or making his death not have meant anything. Remember, even if he comes back, we have to deal with Zoe's pain and the rest of the crew trying to get on without him before that. That's why i like the "ghost that only River can see" idea.

That is the only way I can see to do it that I would accept. Anything else just makes it pointless in my eyes, but having River see him is something that would fit in with the continuity, bring him back, and still leave him firmly dead.

KIZYR

Saturday, October 8, 2005 3:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Here is where the two of us disagree. I don’t think Wash died for effect. Just because you can not trace a death to a single action doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a point. I wish we could point and say, “This is why Wash died,” I wish you could say, “He died doing this so the others could live,” or something like that, but even though that didn’t happen doesn’t mean he died just for effect.

I really couldn't've said it better... Likely would've said it much worse.

The way I saw it... Wash didn't die to prove that the movie was getting even more serious. He died because the movie was on a serious level to begin with (serious as in, anything can go). Trying to pinpoint a reason why he went is a bit futile; when people die in the real world, folks aren't always looking (and can almost never find) a specific reason behind a death. The crew was in an incredibly dangerous situation... it was probable from the beginning that someone wasn't going to make it. Just who, where, and how was variable; but beyond "they were knee-deep in Reavers", there's no "why".

I mean, if there's no apparent reason behind someone's death, that doesn't mean it's a plot device. KF

~Kaiser Farooque

ZOE: Preacher, don’t the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?
BOOK: Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps...

JASONZZZ

Saturday, October 8, 2005 4:25 PM

I can safely conclude that it's a movie, it's Hollywood, almost everything has a literary value, a metaphor, or done for an effect... No, I am not talking about absolutely everything like the color of underwear they are wearing, or how they blink/bat their eyelashes, or the placements of their cups on the table. I am talking about the particular swaggart a character carries, how they are dressed, the theme music(s), and believe it or not - what is shown to you during that small 2 hours. They only have 2 hours to tell you a story, why would you think that they would waste their/your time showing you insignificant things like walking around, randomly yammering at each other, sitting down eating, showering, bathing, reading a book? Every single frame committed into that final reel is there to convey something by the editor/director/filmmaker. And something *insignificant* as in a character death is either some sort of metaphor, some sort of plot device, or done to create an effect. I'm just saying how I perceived it, this is what I see - what I saw was a cheap stunt Halloween or Scream or I know what you did... would do - for a quick jolt/scare to spike up the tension or to quickly change up your emotions...

Pretty standard Hollywood gag... For me, this was out of place... On the other hand, parodied correctly, as in things like "Scary Movies X" it's funny... Great sight gags...

I mean, look at how the River character is dressed all the time, I bet a million different decision went into exactly how those scraps are draped onto her; but that's all also done for a particular effect, invoke feelings and emotions in you. What? in particular to have you feel the sympathy for how patheticly used she was. But overall, nothing sells in Hollywood like a skimpily clad perpetually dripping wet/damp hot chick.

come on, don't tell me you sat thru the thing like one huge Zen moment. It all washed over and around you, but you were not effected or unchanged.

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RODASH

Saturday, October 8, 2005 4:56 PM

I understand exactly how you feel Duey. I had the same emotional response when Wash died. It has consumed me since I found out; hence my posting on this site, when I have never in my many years, posted on a site before. Scary.....as I think of myself as a very rational adult - not to be consumed by fictional characters.

However, I can tell you that there will be no repeat ticket sales from me. And, if Wash does not come back....please, no puns on my rational adult comment above... (oh, and no flashbacks or ghosts please); I can always pretend the movie never existed and treasure my Firefly DVD set forever.

Hope is the best and last of all things, without it, there is only time. And Death is the only escape of time.

SERENITYBOUND

Saturday, October 8, 2005 5:52 PM

OGFM! I can't believe it! As my friend and I said after the movie, I strongly disaprove! I loved the movie, don't get me wrong, but Wash? I mean, they could've at least had him be able to say something before he actually died. Like saying 'I love you' to Zoe or something. But alas, I know it would lose it's effect. I do however like the ideas I've read other people bring up about Wash coming back as a ghost that River can see. I think that'd be kinda awesome. And have it to where Zoe can sometimes 'feel' or sense different signs of it, but never see anything. LOL. But...WHY!? After that, when ever someone else got hurt I'm like, what the hell? They already killed one major person, why wouldn't Simon or Kaylee die too? But they didnt....I liked that...if Kaylee died, I'd never see this movie again. Anywhoo, why Wash? What the hell did he ever do to anyone? O well, such is life I guess. I think how they left Zoe, hiding her pain and all was good in terms of her character, but I think we the people need to see her break down just a little bit. Like when she is alone in her bunk or something. My friend and I decided that if there is a sequel or something to that effect, Zoe should either be pregnant or be holding a baby because for a while, that's all Wash wanted, a child. I think that would be a partially nice thought....but I must agree with Zoe, not to sure about Serenity bein' the best place for a baby...but still...it would be a nice thought.

~*Rest in Peace Hoban "Wash" Washbourne*~

"Day is a vestigial mode of time measurement based on solar cycles. It's not applicable... I didn't get you anything."

ENGINEANGEL

Sunday, October 9, 2005 6:09 AM

Quote:

written by MALICIOUS
What gets me most is that I can no longer enjoy episodes of Firefly, knowing what I know. Every ep is now shadowed with the thought, "Wash dies in the movie......Oh, God, WASH DIES IN THE MOVIE."

That was my problem, too. i share your pain. but i have learned to get past it ... i just really want to keep watching firefly. It's just like even though i wasn't sure i wanted to see the movie again because of what happend to Wash, i went the next day anyway because i just couldn't stay away.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

please travelers. help me find a way to bring wash back!!!

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

DONCOAT

Sunday, October 9, 2005 2:10 PM

I'm going to throw out an idea here that occurred to me after my 4th viewing of Serenity, and I haven't seen mentioned in this or any other thread yet. It came from my mentally connecting two scenes in the film.

One scene is Wash's death. The other happened a few screen minutes earlier: the scene of Mal, alone on the catwalk, after having committed his family to a very, very dangerous course of action.

The connection came when I started wondering what was going through Mal's mind at that moment. By then, his fury at the Operative would have abated somewhat, and he would have started thinking more coolly about what he'd done, the path he'd chosen.

In fact, I think he would have been questioning himself: did I make the right decision? Have I put us on a path that will lead to the deaths of more of the people I love?

[Aside: in the shooting script, this mood was reinforced by a scene with Inara that didn't make the final edit.]

Given that context, Wash's death does play a role beyond film-school, cinematic shock value. It doesn't just raise the tension and stakes for us. It raises them for Mal. The loss of Book was one thing. But the moment that Reaver lance takes the life of his pilot, friend, and "brother-in-law", Mal's commitment is sealed.

That's why, ten minutes later, when the Operative asks Mal if he's willing to die for his belief, there's only one possible answer. You can almost see Mal think of Book and Wash in the little beat before he gives that inevitable reply.

So now I can say that I disagree with those who say Wash's death was pointless. It had a point (no sick pun intended). It was the point on the sword of Mal's determination. And it took me four viewings to get past my own self-centered shock at the loss of my fictional friend to understand that.

Shame on me. Shame on all us Browncoats who can't or won't grasp that.

ENGINEANGEL

Sunday, October 9, 2005 4:52 PM

DonCoat ... I just have one thing to say to you!!!!...

That's completely true. I understand what you're saying and understand better why Wash's death happened. It really does affect Mal. It just takes four viewings to see that. Each time i've seen this movie, i've noticed more of the little details. The first time, i was too traumitized to notice Mal's subtle, yet profound reaction to Wash's death. Today, i saw the movie a fourth time, and i saw that Mal cared deeply and was definately affected by the loss of Wash. He just didn't show it very much because, as he says in the movie, "these people need a leader. I may not be much of one but they have to follow." He needed to keep his calm and stay together so that his crew could keep going. That doesn't mean I like it any better. But it does help to know that it wasn't just a pointless Hollywood stunt (i have always expected better from Joss than a pointless Hollywood stunt).

Thank you for showing this to me. It's true and has helped.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

SHINYMONKEY

Sunday, October 9, 2005 5:47 PM

Any man who creates a sci-fi series without a single bumpy-foreheaded alien would NEVER bring back a beloved character as a ghost. (I can picture it now -- Wash, standing behind his pilot seat, outlined in glowing blue, shaking his head and saying in a reverberating, ghostly voice, "USE THE PORT THRUSTER, MAL!") It may make some of us feel better to imagine that this might happen, but let's be honest ... it ain't gonna. As far as Wash coming back as an android, we can see by the realistic, smooth movements of Mr. Universe's lovebot that androids in the 'Verse are not particularly lifelike. They LOOK good. But they're obviously artificial. Wash ain't a-comin' back as a mannequin any more than as a wise Jedi spirit.

Flashbacks, Baby! I read in an interview that Joss is more interested in moving this storyline ahead [IF sequels are possible] than doing some kind of prequel. But I think that all the actors are signed on for more ... so we will no doubt get to spend some more time with our old friends Book and Wash in some kind of flashback as Zoe tries to come to terms with her husband's death or Book's mysterious past catches up with the crew.

Just my two Alliance gold-wrapped concentrated nutrient bars (sort of like "two cents," but more appropriate in the barter-based economy out on the Rim).

ENGINEANGEL

Sunday, October 9, 2005 6:30 PM

oh come on!!! Any ghost Joss does (and he has done them before) is not going to be a Hollywood ghost, glowing all around. Andf i don't want ONLY flashbacks. I have explained this already in earlier posts!!! It's not the same!!! The ghost concept wouldn't be great just by itself, but if only River can see and hear him, that would be just the twist we would need. Just think about it! River is a reader (a pshycic). Wash couldn't leave Zoe yet. He didn't get to say goodbye. Therefore, Wash has a reason to stay behind, and River, as a reader, can talk with and see him, without it being cheesy or too far out to be real.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

DONCOAT

Sunday, October 9, 2005 9:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by engineangel:
DonCoat ... I just have one thing to say to you!!!!...
...
Thank you for showing this to me. It's true and has helped.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

Wow! I'm so glad my little insight made you feel better. (I have a squishy feeling in my chest right now!)

Maybe all we really need is a great big Browncoated group hug...

FLYINGTAMS

Sunday, October 9, 2005 10:03 PM

Joss is evil - and you can never trust him with your heart. Might as well learn it sooner than later.

The kid could have a great future, if he learns: NOT to kill his darlings.

SIDANE

Sunday, October 9, 2005 10:08 PM

I agree with the sentiments that killing Wash helped the suspense of the finale. It cranked it up another notch. If they're willing to kill him off, anybody could be next. I honestly thought Simon and Zoe were going to die too. Took guts from Joss to make such a bold move, particularly in a film which already has such a strong fan base. So big kudos to him for that.

I remember seeing an interview with Lawrence Kasdan, screenwriter for Empire Strikes Back, and he said he wanted Han Solo to be killed in the carbon freezing process (as did Harrison Ford). The reason was the same - show that the main characters are in dire peril, it's not a game, not everybody lives happily ever after and any of the other main characters could die too.

Alas George Lucas had other ideas and if you look at Return of the Jedi, Han Solo's character does become kinda hokey, bland and just too "nice" compared to epidoes 4 & 5.

ENGINEANGEL

Sunday, October 9, 2005 11:25 PM

Quote:

FlyingTams wrote:
Joss is evil - and you can never trust him with your heart. Might as well learn it sooner than later.
The kid could have a great future, if he learns: NOT to kill his darlings.

NO!!!!

I will not let you say that about Joss. I am not one of the maniacs (sorry to any maniacs reading this) that says that Joss is ALWAYS right and that we should trust in him no matter what. That's going overboard. But he is under no circumstances evil. That's going overboard as well. I don't particularly agree with Joss's reasons to kill Wash and I definately don't like it, but he is a wonderful person, i'm sure, very fuzzy and nice!!! And he's a genius on the screen - an absolute genius!!! If you can make a dispute out of that, I'll be amazed and shocked.

keep flyin' travelers,
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

JAYSONAYCH

Sunday, October 9, 2005 11:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sidane:
I agree with the sentiments that killing Wash helped the suspense of the finale. It cranked it up another notch. If they're willing to kill him off, anybody could be next. I honestly thought Simon and Zoe were going to die too. Took guts from Joss to make such a bold move, particularly in a film which already has such a strong fan base. So big kudos to him for that.

Agreed. Wash was my favorite character on the show and it was truly sad to see him killed. Looking at how little Book seemed like he was going to be in the film in previews and in other info before coming into the movie, I kind of expected he would die. But when Wash died, at that point in the movie, it helped put me on the edge of my seat. Serenity was crashed and heavily, if not irreperably, damaged. Reavers are on their tail, the Operative and the Alliance are threatening, and all of a sudden out of the blue, after a comedic line WHAM! Wash is immediately and gruesomely killed. At that point, all bets are off as to how this thing's going to end. Especially as the rest of the crew is getting shot, sliced, poisoned, and beaten in the final battle. There was a very real possibility that more of the crew, if not all of them, might end up dead at the end of the film.

Wash's death may have been one of the more tragic and saddening things I've seen in a film in a long time, but it was not wasted or worthless to the movie. It made the ending infinitely more exciting and the movie as a whole amazing successful and refreshing. Not enough can be said about how that made an already compelling film more immersive.

I want to know...has Whedon or Glass or Tudyk or anyone in the cast spoken publicly about the deaths of the characters, and how they decided who would die and how everyone involved felt about it? I'm interested to find out what went on behind the scenes on that one.

ENGINEANGEL

Monday, October 10, 2005 12:55 AM

Quote:

There was a very real possibility that more of the crew, if not all of them, might end up dead at the end of the film.

I couldn't believe that. Then there wouldn't be enough characters left for the trilogy (especially if they all died). I truly thought that, Wash's death added to the tension of the moment, but, if anything, it made any more deaths highly unlikely.

just my thoughts,
keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

ENGINEANGEL

Monday, October 10, 2005 1:08 AM

Quote:

DonCoat wrote:
Quote:

Originally posted by engineangel:
DonCoat ... I just have one thing to say to you!!!!...
Thank you for showing this to me. It's true and has helped.

Wow! I'm so glad my little insight made you feel better. (I have a squishy feeling in my chest right now!)
Maybe all we really need is a great big Browncoated group hug...

Hugs all around!!!!

Everyone join in!!!

And DonCoat. I meant every word of what I said.

keep flyin' travelers,
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

ENGINEANGEL

Sunday, October 16, 2005 1:17 AM

GET READY FOR LOTS OF QUESTIONS!!!

Does anyone have any more ideas for the next couple of movies?
What about bringing wash back?
Do you like the ideas posted on this thread or not?
Is there any news from Joss or any the cast on this subject that you have heard/read?

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

------------------------------------------------------

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

DREAMTROVE

Sunday, October 16, 2005 3:49 AM

I'm never going to make it through this thread, so neither probably is anyone else so they may not see this post.

Anyway. Wash's death was awesome. Please stay dead Wash. It really caught me by surprise. Wash was one of my favorite characters, but I agree with the main points here that

1. It changed the tone of the battle and made you think, who else dies? Simon? River?

2. Real consequences to real actions, and randomly, not a sacrafice for the greater good.

But also, Wash was a story problem. A serious story problem. Not because of Zoe, I really kind of got tired of the war-buddy angle. Wash is funny. He's too funny. He's so funny that it's impossible to take any scene with him in it seriously. He and mal are getting tortured to death and I'm laughing my ass off. That's just not right. It makes Mal's ear being cut off an "Oops, there goes an ear, I wonder if they'll take any fingers" when really it should be an "Oh No!"

In order for the whole storyline to turn more serious, Wash has to not be in it.

BTW, I see no crying over Book. Offesnsive comment comming: I was ecstatic when Book bought it. No this isn't a racist thing. It's a sexist thing. Book lost me on the whole special hell thing. Male feminazis deserve their own special hell. Male characters need balls. End offensive comment.

But Wash's death really upped the ante, it was brave it was awesome, and it makes me a little worried. It Joss is out there listening, please don't kill Jayne. Or River. And try not to kill Kaylee. Or Simon.

Zoe, Mal, Inara, sorry guys, I love you, but you know how it is. Life is tough on the edge, and someone's going to get sliced in two.

Also, here's a really brave idea. Have River kill the next PC. Err. Um, you guys know what I mean. Is there a term for permanent characters who are in every show?

Joss is going to kill them all. That oughtta distract us.

RONCHI

Sunday, October 16, 2005 5:50 AM

----But that's not even the best part to me. This was Wash's only way to die a hero. He just performed a miraculous landing, saving the ship and crew (mostly). If he dies in battle, it looks like ineptitude. But dying in the manner he did, it's the best death the character of Wash could hope for.---

i totally agree the way he went was the best way that wash could go...with that said, Wo de ma he ta de feng-kuang de wai-sheng dou, he was my favorite character ever since i saw the show for the first time way back when it first aired...as far as bringing him back i dont think it will happen as much as i would love to see it...doesn't seem probable...We'll miss ya Wash

Curse your sudden, but inevitable betrayal

GRENDEL824

Sunday, October 16, 2005 8:35 AM

Just to give my reaction context, I've only really been interested in the Firefly universe for about two weeks - I never got around to watching it when it was new (it just didn't seem that interesting to me - I'd never watched Buffy, though I still mean to give it a try sometime - I liked Star Trek okay but was never a fan and this SEEMED similar, etc., only knew Whedon's work through his quite good Astonishing X-Men comics), and the only reason I checked out the show was because my friend had just seen the movie (also without ever seeing the show) and told me how good it was. After watching just a fraction of the first episode on his brother's DVD, I was hooked - I ordered the DVD set that night (it still hasn't arrived, grrr!) and saw the movie that weekend.

Wash was instantly my favorite character, and I had already accidentally read a spoiler about him, but it still didn't ruin the tension or shock of when it actually happened. That moment is a love/hate thing for me - it worked, which is why I both love it and hate it. But it was good writing. It served the story, and as long as I get to see the character in (hopefully many) sequels in flashbacks or whatever, I'm happy.

I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted here, but this is an amazing show/cast/story they've got going, and I hope they get to keep doing it for a long, long time. It's the first property in a long time (show/movie/comics/whatever) that I've actually been so won-over by that I feel obligated to recommend it to others because I think it deserves a much better chance than it's gotten so far. As a writer, it's one of those things that I end up wishing I'd written - like I don't have to write a sci-fi TV series anymore because somebody already did what I like to think I would've done (just like Donnie Darko was the kind of movie I would've made, and Watchmen was the comic I would've made [well, maybe not quite so well, but you get the idea...]).

I STILL haven't seen most of the TV series (only 6 episode so far), but it's already one of my all-time favorites. Despite always being leery of so-called "rabid fan-bases," I can see why people can be so devoted to this show. I hope everybody involved is as nice as I've heard, and that they're well-rewarded for the great work they've done.

BOBSUNCORP

Sunday, October 16, 2005 9:49 AM

It could have been worse. I've only seen the movie once so I could be mistaken but Wash looked like he was killed by the same kind of harpoon that got Jayne in the leg, a weapon designed to catch your prey and reel him in like a fish. Maybe there was an original cut where Wash was hit, then pulled out through the window and eaten alive by the Reavers (ever seen Shaun of the Dead?). This was a little too nasty, so it was cut and he just died. Doesn't seem so bad now does it?

"Who do you think tracked us?"
"The ugly one, Sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

RABBIT2

Sunday, October 16, 2005 12:53 PM

Here`s a thought.

Maybe Zoe`s Pregnant.

GERSHOM

Sunday, October 16, 2005 1:08 PM

I'm new to this forum but - Wash died so that you were left seriously wondering if any of the others WERE going to survive!

If Wash can die such an unexpected death then when all the others start to get injured - Zoe, Kaylee and Simon (you knew Mal would somehow succeed but survive?) - you are seriously left wondering if they would also die before the end...

It did work for me at least, I was left seriously worried about Simon and Kaylee surviving the film.

The reason Wash was picked was that he was upbeat of them all and gave us a chance to see Zoe go into her Valkarie soldier mode again - something not seen since the end of the war...

One thing that definitely DIDN'T work for me was when Simon is in the room about to rescue River and he ALLOWS them to insert a needle into her forehead BEFORE setting off his stunner... There is no way he'd allow that, he loves her too much to allow them to hurt her anymore, and especially stay so bl**dy calm about it!. Also he's given more information about what has been done to River than he seems to know in the initial episodes of Firefly... Sorry but that jarred.

ENGINEANGEL

Sunday, October 16, 2005 6:15 PM

I don't know if this was just me, but i really was left with a sense of "Joss can't kill of any more of the characters or else there won't be enough of them left for a good sequel." The fourth time i watched the movie i could see what you guys meant but the other times i saw it, i knew Joss wouldn't kill anyone else. The only person i was worried about dying was Simon ... and then only for a bit. The only thing i was worried about was that people getting seriously maimed or hurt.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

CELLULOIDGRIM

Sunday, October 16, 2005 8:56 PM

I heard a long time ago that someone was going to be killed off because of scheduling issues. And at the time Alan was filming "Into the West" for TBS or whatever. So my guess is that they killed off Wash because of scheduling conflicts, but worked out a resaon in the movie to kill him off so it won't seem meaningless.

DINO

Wednesday, October 19, 2005 6:04 PM

Shocked, can't watch it again. My DVDs are gathering dust.
Very very dark but exellent, apart from the gaping hole left in he crew dynamic.
Wash was my favorite character, didn't see it coming.

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