SERENITY great cinema? Compared to what?

POSTED BY: Howard
UPDATED: Friday, November 4, 2005 01:41
VIEWED: 28810
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HOWARD

Monday, October 31, 2005 4:48 AM

To those people who are so happy with
SERENITY who seem to not notice the loss in
quality and integrity that was not only
contained in the show but in even greater
potential in deleted scenes.

Deleted scenes in the box-set such as Zoe's
speech to Simon about war that was perfect
foundation for a greater and deeper more
evolved cinematic manifestation of the
concept. If such a quality drama had been
made it could have been released as an
intelligent, for grown-ups, theatrical drama
during those pre-Oscar nomination weeks in
which serious films get released.

When people laud SERENITY as one of the
greatest films ever and so on, something
clicks in my middle-aged head.

What kind of films have these people ever
seen? What do they buy on DVD?

So as PUBLIC SERVICE here are some movies
both fiction and non-fiction that well
deserve your purchase on DVD:

A VERY LONG ENGAGEMENT (R1)
INDOCHINE (R1)
NOWHERE IN AFRICA (R1)
DOWNFALL (R1) (UK R2 DTS and 2-disc set)
THE THIN RED LINE (R1)
CARANDIRU (R1)
PAPILLON (R1)
BIG BAD LOVE (R1)
THE BARBARIAN INVASIONS (R1)
THE SHELTERING SKY (R1)
BESIEGED (R1)
TODO EL PODER (R1)
THE CRANES ARE FLYING (R1)
COME AND SEE (R1) poor master but worth it.
EAST/WEST (R1)
ALTERED STATES (R1)
THX 1138 (R1)
21 GRAMS (R1)
THE ASSASSINATION OF RICHARD NIXON (R1)
SALVADOR (R1)
THE FOG OF WAR (R1)
CONTROL ROOM (R1)
LIFE AND DEBT (R1)
THE CORPORATION (R1)
REGRET TO INFORM (R1)
AND NOW LADIES AND GENTLEMAN (R1)
THE VERTICAL RAY OF THE SUN (R1)
L'APPARTEMENT (France R2 DTS / Eng subtitles)
ALL ABOUT MY MOTHER (R1)
TALK TO HER (R1)
MAGNOLIA (R1)
ANGEL HEART (R1)
THE WIDOW OF SAINT-PIERRE (R1)
GOOD BYE LENIN! (R1)
IN THIS WORLD (R1) (UK R2 pure original)
THE INSIDER (R1)
SERPICO (R1)
MALCOLM X (R1)]
THE HURRICANE (R1)
DIRTY PRETTY THINGS (R1)
AMELIE (R1)
FACING WINDOWS (R1)
I'LL SING FOR YOU (R1)
FIDEL The Untold Story (R1)
COMANDANTE (UK R2)
OPEN YOUR EYES (R1)
RUN LOLA RUN (R1)
THE PRINCESS AND THE WARRIOR (R1)
THE GIRL ON THE BRIDGE (UK R2)
THE SWEET HEREAFTER (R1)

URSULA

Monday, October 31, 2005 6:01 AM

Thank you, Howard. That was certainly condescending and superior.

YORG

Monday, October 31, 2005 6:27 AM

That list of movies = poop.

GIANTEVILHEAD

Monday, October 31, 2005 6:36 AM

What a pointless thread. I suggest you take a class in logic and learn what straw man and false analogy fallacies are.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

GROOSALUGG

Monday, October 31, 2005 6:46 AM

Maybe in the future you could just stick to warning us all about how the evil shadow governments are plotting to use Blu-Ray to take over the world.

And considering you're the one who ripped Joss and Universal for not doing 50% of Serenity's dialogue in Mandarin (that would've been exciting cinema!), I'm not sure what the rest of your opinions are worth...

OLDHAG

Monday, October 31, 2005 7:01 AM

Quote:

And considering you're the one who ripped Joss and Universal for not doing 50% of Serenity's dialogue in Mandarin (that would've been exciting cinema!), I'm not sure what the rest of your opinions are worth...

He actually said that? If so, then clearly he's off his handle!

GROOSALUGG

Monday, October 31, 2005 7:08 AM

Yep. Said Joss & co. chickened out, and if they'd done that, it could've made it a mega-hit in China and raked in huge $$$... (I guess they stopped dubbing movies in foreign countries, huh?)

Sometimes a comment is just so out there that it sticks with you for weeks afterward...

RITAK7

Monday, October 31, 2005 7:14 AM

i did like Serenity really enjoyed it but i too appreciate that it didn't live up to it's potential. When you wrote "All aout my mother' did you me "SOBRE TODO MI MADRE' by almodovar? that is one of my all time favorites

RONAN

Monday, October 31, 2005 11:25 AM

Still relatively new to the world of posting but have I just met my first Troll in Howard?

HOWARD

Monday, October 31, 2005 1:24 PM

THE RESPONSES TO THIS HELPFUL AND WELL INTENDED
POST PROVES THAT ON ANY ISSUE YOU PEOPLE ARE A
BUNCH OF VERY, VERY IGNORANT, CHILDISH SPOILT
BRATS! TOTALLY DEVOID OF EVEN THE SLIGHEST
CAPACITY TO LEARN ANYTHING OR TO EXPAND YOUR
HORIZONS OR DEPTH OF KNOWLEDGE IN ANY WAY.

NO WONDER MOST OF Y0U HOLD SUCH APPALLING AND
SIMPLE MINDED POLITICAL PERCEPTIONS. THE BASE
OUTPUT OF THE BASE LEVEL OF CORPORATE CAPITALISM
CONSTANTLY PANDERS TO YOUR LOWEST INSTINCTS AND
IN FACT ENCOURAGES THE CEMENTING OF THOSE DIRE
FAUX-INSTINCTS. WHILE DISCOURAGING KNOWLEDGE AND
ANY UNDERSTANDING THAT MIGHT CHALLENGE THE STATUS
QUO.
Howard Simon Marks

" You think you're so clever and
classless and free
but you're still fucking peasants
as far as I can see..."

John Lennon "Working Class Hero"

HOWARD

Monday, October 31, 2005 1:27 PM

RITAK7

Thank you for your civil response
and yes I meant the Almodovar movie.

I was not suggesting that no one enjoyed
Serenity but rather what you said and for me
the loss of a massive potential for elevating
sci fi to serious drama and gaining a deeper
content and no pandering to the easy outs.

Have you seen TODO EL PODER it totally rocks!!
The English title is spelt GIMME POWER the
DVD emphasises the English title but the
Amazon search engine has it in Spanish.

Though my list is not in any order the first
title on the list A VERY LONG ENGAGEMENT is the
best written most original and inspiring recent
film. While DOWNFALL is the best docudrama of
a fictional account of true story and
THE CORPORATION is the best documentary.

SIMONWHO

Monday, October 31, 2005 1:58 PM

It's not what you said Howard, it's the way you said it. Funnily enough people tend to get rather irked if you call them stupid and demand that they watch films to your taste, particularly in a fresh thread of your own creation.

You list a large number of films but Serenity is a movie. There's a big difference. I don't need, expect nor want every film I see to be a deep, intelligent masterpiece. I like to think I'm mostly high brow but just occasionally I like to watch a Dumb and Dumber or While You Were Sleeping, both of which are great movies, just not in the same way that, say, Salvador is.

CHRISISALL

Monday, October 31, 2005 2:05 PM

Howard left out my personal favourite political film: Conan The Barbarian.

Chrisisall, on the tree of woe

CHRISISALL

Monday, October 31, 2005 2:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Howard:

THE RESPONSES TO THIS HELPFUL AND WELL INTENDED
POST PROVES THAT ON ANY ISSUE YOU PEOPLE ARE A
BUNCH OF VERY, VERY IGNORANT, CHILDISH SPOILT
BRATS! TOTALLY DEVOID OF EVEN THE SLIGHEST
CAPACITY TO LEARN ANYTHING OR TO EXPAND YOUR
HORIZONS OR DEPTH OF KNOWLEDGE IN ANY WAY.

Howard, man, you know we 'reach' on the political thing, but you have to ease up on the 'you're all...' thing.
Speaking in absolutes will endear you to absolutly nobody, savy?

Chrisisall

THESOMNAMBULIST

Monday, October 31, 2005 2:25 PM

Howard.

I read through your list and many of those films I have enjoyed. However I still love SERENITY.

And just to add to your list:

WAGES OF FEAR
JEAN DE FLOURETTE
MANON DE SOURCE
CITY OF THE LOST CHILDREN
LAVENDER HILL MOB
THE LADYKILLERS (Original Version)
PASSPORT TO PIMLICO
KIND HEARTS AND CORONETS
PUBLIC ENEMY (James Cagney)
ANGELS WITH DIRTY FACES
THE CABINET OF DR CALIGARI

.... You know I could go on but really this is just my opinion of what I consider great films, but I by no means have the definitive manual on what classes a film as great.

I don't really understand why you appear so angered that people, myself included, loved Serenity. Perhaps you could explain your point of view a little more for me.

Personally I don't regard watching those films you listed, or watching any film for that matter, as a prerequisite for intelligence.

The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

INSANITYLATER

Monday, October 31, 2005 3:00 PM

Quote:

And considering you're the one who ripped Joss and Universal for not doing 50% of Serenity's dialogue in Mandarin (that would've been exciting cinema!), I'm not sure what the rest of your opinions are worth...

Hey.. why not do the whole thing in Mandarin and get Mel Gibson to direct it?

And you really need to add Joe Versus the Volcano to the list of "must see movies".

"Serenity NOW!!! ... Insanity later."

RIVERNOT

Monday, October 31, 2005 3:11 PM

We all know Firefly was something special. Joss and company were aiming for art, which is part of the reason FOX didn't "get" it and dropped it. However, in this day and age, when movies like "The Pacifier" do well (I'll admit I rented it and the kids loved it. Gack!) what are the chances that a sci-fi drama would make it?? I loved Serenity. Great cinematic film? Not really. Fun movie? You bet. Could there have been more? Of course. Was Universal willing to allow Joss the latitude to make something more true to the series? As much as folks say Joss had free reign, I do think there were limitations he had to abide by, one of them being the potential take at the box office. It's unfortunate, but sci-fi takes a lot of money to make and, therefore, is a prisoner to the masses. Sigh.

EMBERS

Monday, October 31, 2005 3:20 PM

I like theSomnambulist's list better than Howards.
But what I really hate is Howard's condesending attitude and gross generalizations, both sure signs of the hopelessly immature and self-involved.

I loved 'Serenity' but I never said it was the greatest film of all time (WHO said that? Nobody said that)...it was a wonderfully entertaining and involving movie filled with the characters (and the ship) I love, and I personally thought the political message was right on.

My 'greatest films' list would include:
King of Hearts
Hard Day's Night
The Return of Martin Guere
Diva (the French film, in case there is another)
Enchanted April
oh this is a waste of time...there are many others...

**********************************************
watch the R. Tam Session vids: http://www.hittarivertam.nu/
and buy the 'Serenity' comics published by Dark Horse,
and have you joined the Browncoats yet?
http://browncoats.serenitymovie.com/serenity/?fuseaction=tools.invlink
&u=embers&linkID=36

CHRISISALL

Monday, October 31, 2005 3:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:

Enchanted April

Ah, what a beautiful film!! It was magic.

Em, you HAVE to check out The Road Home (a hong kong film- drama, no kung-fu), I'll go on record as saying THAT is the best cinema ever (IMnotsoHO)! Please, please see that one.

Chrisisall, more than just fighting on the brain

CHRISISALL

Monday, October 31, 2005 3:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by InsanityLater:
Hey.. why not do the whole thing in Mandarin

I wanna see a version all in Greedo's language!!!

Mal: " Oooh la schulpa!"
Operative: "Yah, kappa tool tuk!"

Them's fightin' words!

Chrisisall, interpreter

PHOEBE

Monday, October 31, 2005 3:46 PM

Dear lord, you actually watch those things?

That explains everything...

KAZZAHDRANE

Monday, October 31, 2005 3:50 PM

To be honest, I don't credit Howard with an overabundance of brains.

I liked Serenity, so what if I haven't seen lots of classy "proper" films?

Being nasty and superior doesn't make you clever, it makes you dick.

THESOMNAMBULIST

Monday, October 31, 2005 3:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
I like theSomnambulist's list better than Howards.

...Why thank you Embers.

if you wanna borrow anything, let me know.

The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

EMBERS

Monday, October 31, 2005 4:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Em, you HAVE to check out The Road Home (a hong kong film- drama, no kung-fu), I'll go on record as saying THAT is the best cinema ever (IMnotsoHO)! Please, please see that one.

to hear is to obey...it is now in my netflix queue

And I don't hate Kung-fu, I loved 'Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon' (just not watch it over again and again and again love it...like I did the other films on my list)
I would add
Spirited Away
Gosford Park
there are others...I'm just not thinking of them at the moment...

edited to add: oh yeah, I love LOVE
Stage Beauty

and The Somnambulist: I've seen most of the films on your list...
I am also a big Alec Guinness fan and Kind Hearts and Coronets is one I never get tired of!

**********************************************
watch the R. Tam Session vids: http://www.hittarivertam.nu/
and buy the 'Serenity' comics published by Dark Horse,
and have you joined the Browncoats yet?
http://browncoats.serenitymovie.com/serenity/?fuseaction=tools.invlink
&u=embers&linkID=36

UNREGISTEREDCOMPANION

Monday, October 31, 2005 4:42 PM

Of that list, I had seen 4 of the movies.

3 I liked, one I hated (Amelie).

I may have to check out the others.

But keep in mind, movie preference is VERY subjective. Telling people something they liked sucked is generally not a good way to get people to check out things you like.

I am only going to consider the list because I liked 3 out of 4...and I am ignoring the snobbery.

~~~~~
"Funny and sexy. You have no idea. And you never will."

REXJAYNE

Monday, October 31, 2005 4:43 PM

HOWARD:

I realize there are some really great movies out there, original and significant in ways that Serenity certainly isn't. In fact, A Very Long Engagement is one of my favourite movies, as well as anything else with Audrey Tautou or Franka Potente.

What's special about Serenity isn't that it's groundbreaking cinema, or that it makes you think about political issues.. It happens to be great entertainment. Sometimes people want to see movies that don't require lots of thought or disturbing images.
I happen to think Serenity is a great movie, and not one of the caters-to-the-lowest-denominator movies, but obviously it's not an Oscar contender. What it is, is something special in its genre: Sci-fi and western with interesting characters and lots of fun to watch.

People are naturally going to be offended here by someone saying it's not a great movie because this is a Firefly/Serenity site, and we come here to talk about all things Firefly. That doesn't mean we're all low-brow, cavemen with no interest in anything more deep.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is that you have a point, but I don't think it needs to be made here.

--------
Let's not be excludin' people, that'd be rude - Jayne

THESOMNAMBULIST

Monday, October 31, 2005 4:45 PM

Embers

Have you seen Captain Paradise with Alec Guiness? Great film!

I see you included Spirited Away... Good choice. Have you also seen, Castle in the Sky, Kiki's Delivery Service and my personal favourite; Porco Rosso :) Oh of course - AKIRA.

The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

GIXXER

Monday, October 31, 2005 4:54 PM

Howieeeeeeeeee! My main fun-lovin' man! Where ya bin? And when did you lose the soupcatcher? Takes years off you, I'm tellin' ya.

C'mon over and take a load off, big guy. Here. Have a beer. Then we can go out and hit the clubs. Sex isn't entirely out of the question either. I'm just sayin'.

Ain't been on the board long, but I have come to respect your talent for alienatin' folks. It really is near miraculous, and you should be very proud.

I have to say I missed your name on the original post, and started reading the list of movies. About halfway through, I was thinking...

...worthy. Who seriously would make a list like thi... Ah, that explains it.

You let yourself down badly by including Amelie. That is a cracking film I watch because it's stoatingly executed and has got Kaylee-quantity feelgoodness to it. However, I'd put money on you including it purely because it was French. Am I wrong?

Comparing like with like, you're unfavourably comparing the BDM to THX1138?

REXJAYNE

Monday, October 31, 2005 5:03 PM

Spirited Away is a truely great movie.. some of my other favourites are My Neighbour Totoro, Princess Mononoke and Nausikaa of the Valley of the Wind. Miyazaki is really amazing.

--------
Let's not be excludin' people, that'd be rude - Jayne

GROOSALUGG

Monday, October 31, 2005 5:12 PM

I'd say something else, but I like Die Hard and support George W. Bush, so I'm clearly one of the dumbest people here. So, please ignore the stupid American and continue on to the next message. Thank you.

EMBERS

Monday, October 31, 2005 6:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Have you seen Captain Paradise with Alec Guiness? Great film!

I will check it out!
and I agree w/you and RexJayne: Miyazaki is really amazing,
have y'all seen 'Howl's Moving Castle'? It is beautiful
but 'Spirited Away' remains my all time favorite of his....

**********************************************
watch the R. Tam Session vids: http://www.hittarivertam.nu/
and buy the 'Serenity' comics published by Dark Horse,
and have you joined the Browncoats yet?
http://browncoats.serenitymovie.com/serenity/?fuseaction=tools.invlink
&u=embers&linkID=36

BOOMCHICK

Monday, October 31, 2005 6:58 PM

You know, if you had JUST made suggestions, I would have thought you were pretty cool. After all, some of those movies are all-time favoites of mine, But HOW DARE YOU imply that loving Serenity makes you stupid? So that movie is on my favorites list, big whoop. It's on there with Run Lola Run, Spirited Away, The Seventh Seal, Casablanca, The Seven Samurai, Red Beard... Ect. However, the feeling behind serenety is different! It's new and exciting, and I love it. It may not have the same feel as the series, but the newness of it makes it all the better

If you are a true gentleman and lover of films, you will retract your comment and be civil enough to discuss you oppinion, instead of calling everyone else stupid.

Prick.

I am a leaf on the ground, watch how cars run over me.

LIMINALOSITY

Monday, October 31, 2005 7:32 PM

Curse my inevitible ability to push 'play' when it keeps coming back to the top.

I've been avoiding this one because I figured it would be more of the stuff I don't like, and aren't we supposed to avoid trolling in the troll threads with the big letters and the firey stabbity death to fans? They use up bandwidth and

did somebody say band?

well I brought my guitar, and there is a bonfire, sooo.....

Dis my film
Say it's bad
Best darn time I've lately had.
I don't mind
If you can't see
Really loved Serenity.

I'll hang out
In this land
With a random happy band.
Thisisall
I can see
Joss will write some more for me.

Shiny Trees! Yavanna made Shiny Trees!

ROLAND

Monday, October 31, 2005 7:46 PM

I get annoyed when people put you down for the movies you like or for not liking the movies they like. Taste in movies is all subjective. Nobody can say that their favorite movies are any better than anybody else's favorite movies. I haven't seen very many of the movies on Howard's list but I haven't enjoyed the ones I have seen from the list. If I don't enjoy a movie, I don't consider it great cinema. All I am trying to say is, you may not agree with other's choices but you don't have to put them down because of it.

MISSKITTEN

Monday, October 31, 2005 8:35 PM

Seriously, who are you to tell us what to like!?! It's people who act all superior, like you're allmight, allknowing that really pisses me off!

I have family who watches like these foreign filmes that are supposed to be amazing, but most of the time they have no clue what the film was even about at the end of the day.

It seems to me that people like you are the ones that say "once a movie becomes entertainment it's not a good movie".

Serenity is one of those movies that contains all. A mix of genres, there's a little something for everybody. You have the obvious humor with the spot on lines, you have the action, the suspence-sceenes. There's a ton of drama and layers. There are amazing characterizations. Not even the villain is a typical villain-type.

So sorry that you didn't get a long pining, sob-fest. Have it ever occurred to you that a movie where you don't cry non-stop from beginning to end can in fact be concidered a good movie?

Besides... if you hate it so much, why are you even here...? Go bother someone else...

*~*~*

"Joss, if you kill him now I'll stuff a compression coil up your ass sideways!"
~ Kaylee, "Serenity in 2000 words or less"

Kaylee's the perfect woman!

PIZMOBEACH

Monday, October 31, 2005 8:42 PM

Thx for the great suggestions, can't help but add a few of my favs:

Aguirre, The Wrath of God
The Harbringer
Angelo My Love
Acetylene
Playtime (anythng by Jaques Tati)
It Makes A Beautiful Light
Riches to Rags: The Helen Smirnoff Story
Three Seasons
2 Horse Donkey
Abner Kampfie
My Darling Clementine
Seven Samurai
12 Angry Men
Come Out Come Out Where Ever You Are
My BodyGaurd
Haughty Melodic
Spring’s Best Season
Ipso Facto
My Brunch with Leroy
The Lambshank Reduction
Land Ho!
The Green Jerkin
Seperate But Equal
The Davenport of Dr. Caligraphi

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.net

INSANITYLATER

Monday, October 31, 2005 8:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by misskitten:
Seriously, who are you to tell us what to like!?!

He's not telling what movies to like, he's just showing you HOW to like movies.. NOW LIE DOWN!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Serenity NOW!!! ... Insanity later."

MISSKITTEN

Monday, October 31, 2005 9:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by InsanityLater:
Quote:
Originally posted by misskitten:
Seriously, who are you to tell us what to like!?!

He's not telling what movies to like, he's just showing you HOW to like movies.. NOW LIE DOWN!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Serenity NOW!!! ... Insanity later."

*EDITS*

Oh, *now* I get it! LMAO!!!

*~*~*

"Joss, if you kill him now I'll stuff a compression coil up your ass sideways!"
~ Kaylee, "Serenity in 2000 words or less"

Kaylee's the perfect woman!

STEVE580

Monday, October 31, 2005 9:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by InsanityLater:
Quote:
Originally posted by misskitten:
Seriously, who are you to tell us what to like!?!

He's not telling what movies to like, he's just showing you HOW to like movies.. NOW LIE DOWN!

GIANTEVILHEAD

Monday, October 31, 2005 10:02 PM

This is obviously not a well intended thread. It is an idiotic thread based on ignorance and poor reasoning skill. For one, not everyone who enjoyed Serenity thinks that it is one of the best movies ever made. I don't know of anyone who thinks that Serenity is one the best movie ever made. In fact, I dare you to show me five posts made by five different people saying that Serenity is one of the best movies ever made, not five people saying that Serenity is one of their favorite movies, five people saying that it’s one of the best movies ever made as you claim as is the case. Second, just because I enjoyed Serenity does not mean I am incapable of enjoying or have never watched movies like The Insider. Just because I liked True Lies does not mean I cannot appreciate the genius of Citizen Kane. Just because The Terminator is one of my favorite movies of all time, does not mean I think it is a better science fiction movie than 2001.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

OBIWAN

Monday, October 31, 2005 10:45 PM

My uncle had a dog named Howard once. He was loyal and pretty.

=================================================
"Butcher's Knife..."

www.browncoatpatches.com

CONEJITA7

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 1:12 AM

Should the Princess Bride be left out of must see list? and i didn't infer from Howard's post that we were under strict orders to view these films or else, just that they could be enjoyable as well as elevating-oh i wish i had time to enjoy while being elevated until i finish my degree the closest i'll get is eating a baby ruth while researching.

UNSARDONIC

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 1:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
...For one, not everyone who enjoyed Serenity thinks that it is one of the best movies ever made. I don't know of anyone who thinks that Serenity is one the best movie ever made. In fact, I dare you to show me five posts made by five different people saying that Serenity is one of the best movies ever made, not five people saying that Serenity is one of their favorite movies, five people saying that it’s one of the best movies ever made as you claim as is the case.

Okay...

I'll start:

Here's one: speaking as a film maker (writer/producer), I THINK 'SERENITY' IS ONE OF THE BEST MOVIES EVER MADE.

And, By GAWD, I can go on for MONTHS about the bajillion reasons why. I agree with all the lists on this thread - many are movies that I consider "perfect - very many...

Now, who'll 'second' me on this commotion?

As to the lists: I notice none of you mentioned Piero Pasolini and I ...welll... if ya wanna intense cinema experience, just check out 'Salo' some time... this movie is soo Friggin' Intense, most people simply can't make it through a half hour, well... any amount of it. It stunned me so much that I was able to watch the entire thing, well... it was like, kinda, a trainwreck... or Meatloaf or Wendy O. & the Plasmatics in concert: you can't avert your eyes; you must look... because it's truly unbelievable. So after it finished, I watched it all over again, just 'cause I couldn't believe I'd seen it all the way through once.

Gosh I hope that helps

HOHOHO

Love All Movies {was it Ray Charles that said, 'The ear is ready for all kinds of sound," so I say, "The eye is ready for all kinds of vision"} "or your friends will think you're stupid inbred stacks of meat"

QUEENOFTHENORTH

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 1:27 AM

Um . . does anyone else fall asleep halfway through Howard's rants? LOL just kidding. Seriously though, to me movies are about entertainment mostly, not about upping your IQ. If you wanna do that, read a book. Also, good to know you guys have some good taste (Castle in the Sky? loved it -- Spirited Away, have to see it). And LIM, you are the best -- that is a fantastic song. Anyways, y'all have fun now, ya hear? Hehe.

I give to you the Seeker of Serenity, the Valkyrie Warrior, the Gourmet Cook and the Truth Scoper.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 1:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Unsardonic:
Okay...

I'll start:

Here's one: speaking as a film maker (writer/producer), I THINK 'SERENITY' IS ONE OF THE BEST MOVIES EVER MADE.

Now, who'll 'second' me on this commotion?

Qualification: 'Best movies ever made' meaning a cross section to include musicals, drama, science-fiction, and comedy.....
Then DAMN RIGHT Serenity's one of the BEST movies EVER MADE!!!!!

You are seconded!

Chrisisall!

HOWARD

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 2:00 AM

Try the DVD of CARANDIRU (R1)
nothing warm and cudly about that.
Yes obviously we can all be multifaceted
and able to relate to very different things.
Warm and cudly AMELIE and not warm and cudly
CARANDIRU.

By the way to whoever said it. I NEVER said
that everyone who liked or loved SERENITY was
saying it is one of the greatest movies ever.
But some folks on this site do think that and
short of that there are such rich qualities and
potential contained in FIREFLY that I now feel
has been flushed away.

HOWARD

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 2:12 AM

Well no such luck GROOSALUGG...

DIE HARD for your cinema

and

Bush for your politics

yep that does count as rather stupid

BUT...

if you has said...

Anything staring Gweneth Paltrow for your
cinema

and

Clinton for your politics

that would be not just stupid

but truly sinister.

Not that the Bush gang is not sinister they
are but most of the world can see this.

What is more sinister than sinister is
sinister wrapped up and packaged like
everyone's down'n'hip, caring and sharing
friend...when it/he aint! As in Clinton and
other similar types.

Same with all Paltrow esque movie culture
one is meant to buy it as "deep" and "really
thoughtful" but of course it is a big NOT!

QUEENOFTHENORTH

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 2:36 AM

Wow, someone's just an angry little person, aren't they? Totally missing the point, too.

I give to you the Seeker of Serenity, the Valkyrie Warrior, the Gourmet Cook and the Truth Scoper.

OLDHAG

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 2:41 AM

I have a really good suggestion for this problem that Howard is presenting alot of folks: Don't respond to anything he says! He obviously is pretentios, self-absorbed, middle-aged and lonely little man that makes himself feel better by coming on this site and ranting on about his taste in movies, music, or politics. Leave him be to galavant about his "superior" taste in anything. I learned really fast that people don't like to be critized for what they like regardless if everyone else in the world may think otherwise. If they like it than that's good for them and that's all that matters.(Again, sorry Jacqui, if your reading this) Just leave him be to his ostentatious ways. Or you can just do this

"All you people up there, in city hall,
Your f***ing it up for the people that's in the streets"
Tim Tim Timmy!

LIMINALOSITY

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 2:45 AM

I can hardly wait to see Narnia
for a little brain candy!
oh goody oh

Limi

Shiny Trees! Yavanna made Shiny Trees!

UNSARDONIC

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 2:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Howard:
Same with all Paltrow esque movie culture
one is meant to buy it as "deep" and "really
thoughtful" but of course it is a big NOT!

Hey!! I LIKE Gwinnie in her movies, man! Have you SEEN "Mrs. Parker & the Vicious Circle"? ...flat out one of the greatest movies of all time!! She got, I believe it was, her first post-adolescent role (after "Hook") in that movie, along with some girl named Heather Graham that no one had every heard of before... Freakin' ReMARKable that movie was... so I happen to think she deSERVed that Oscar® for "Shakespeare..."

Hey, but who cares what-I-think...

Some years ago, when the internet was but a gleam in DARPA's eye, there was a network called PAN (the "Performing Artists' Network"), on which I had an interchange with none other than Barry Manilow. He was looking up movie scripts to produce, as I recall and, BTW... I had one.

I told him he just wouldn't like it 'cause... y'know... 'it didn't involve the 'Copa'... and he sent me a very strong email which I think I can still quote verbatim, as it has stuck with me so completely well:

"Never - NEVER - badmouth anyone in the Industry as, you'll never know if that very, one, person is the one you're going to count on to save your (professional) life some day."

I have taken that advice to heart...

HOHOHO

Deep-Or-Not-Gwinnie-Rocks "or your friends will think you're a stupid, inbred stack of meat"

DIETCOKE

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 2:59 AM

Just curious, Howard. Did you only see Serenity once?

NY/NJ Browncoats: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly_nyc

UNSARDONIC

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 2:59 AM

Quote:
"All you people up there, in city hall,
Your f***ing it up for the people that's in the streets"
Tim Tim Timmy!

TIM TIM TIMMY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ooh! Ooh! Ooh!, 'Oldhag,' you CAN'T be THAT 'old' if you think 'TimTimTimmy' rocks

On the other hand, I'm 54 and I think Freakin' System-of-a-Down RROOOOOOLLLLSSSS!!!!!!!

....just sayin'...

y'don't have to b'lieve me...

HOHOHO

um, 'Tim-TIm-Timmy,' "or your friends will think you're a stupid, inbred stack of meat"

OLDHAG

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 3:08 AM

Heh, I'm actually only 20. My nickname at work, is Timmy or Tim Tim Timmy cuz my name is Timothy. funny how that works. And Old Hag is my GamerTag on Xbox. I didn't know what else to call myself on here so I just chose that. See, there's a method to my madness!

I'm glad that you like System of a Down. I think that even though their really popular that their still really damn good. Be sure to get there other half of there album coming out Nov. 22. Also the same time the X-box 360 is coming out, which i already have reserved and payed for( not that i'm bragging or anything) what the hell, i'm bragging and happy about it. I can't wait till it comes out!!!

"This is a song for the people in the streets,
not the people in city hall!" <---quote from Tenacious D
Tim Tim Timmy!

QUEENOFTHENORTH

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 3:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by liminalosity:
I can hardly wait to see Narnia
for a little brain candy!
oh goody oh

Limi

Shiny Trees! Yavanna made Shiny Trees!

I can't wait to see Narnia either! I think it's gonna be so great! Oh, and OldHag, glad to see you've learned a lesson or two :). The important thing is you always change your mind.

I give to you the Seeker of Serenity, the Valkyrie Warrior, the Gourmet Cook and the Truth Scoper.

RIVER6213

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 3:36 AM

Is there a name for what Howard's suffering from?

QUEENOFTHENORTH

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 3:43 AM

I think it's called prentensiosity. Or something like that.

I give to you the Seeker of Serenity, the Valkyrie Warrior, the Gourmet Cook and the Truth Scoper.

SEVENPERCENT

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 3:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Howard:
BUT...

if you has said...

Anything staring Gweneth Paltrow for your
cinema

and

Clinton for your politics

that would be not just stupid

but truly sinister.

Well, call the devil and sign me up for The Sinister Satan Army. I particularly (as a lit person) liked Shakespeare in Love, and I voted for Clinton at least once.

For those of you that aren't used to it, though, welcome to the wonderful world that is Howard. He's just this much fun on the RWED board, too. It takes special skills to piss off Citizen and Auraptor in the same thread, but he managed. On several occasions.

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

UNSARDONIC

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 4:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Quote:
...It takes special skills to piss off Citizen and Auraptor in the same thread, but he managed. On several occasions.

...butbutbuttabuttabutt...

..he pee'd me off, too

...oh yeah: he pissed me off (I forgot):

the blighter

HOHOHO

I'm having 'mood swings ...of a sort...' because "my friends think I'm a stupid, inbred stack of meat"

HOWARD

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 7:17 AM

Dear SevenPercent

I am only too happy to oblige!!

HOWARD

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 7:22 AM

Actually I never liked CITIZEN KANE
I much prefer THE TRIAL and so did
Mr Welles.

For years I felt alone in saying that
THE TRIAL is a better Welles film
than KANE. Until a wonderful LASERDISC
of THE TRIAL was released and in the
liner notes Welles is quoted in an]
interview as saying that for me THE
TRIAL is better.

The problem with the likes of THE TERMINATOR
is that giving your money for that crap just
encourages the studios.

MISSKITTEN

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 8:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Unsardonic:
Okay...

I'll start:

Here's one: speaking as a film maker (writer/producer), I THINK 'SERENITY' IS ONE OF THE BEST MOVIES EVER MADE.

Now, who'll 'second' me on this commotion?
Qualification: 'Best movies ever made' meaning a cross section to include musicals, drama, science-fiction, and comedy.....
Then DAMN RIGHT Serenity's one of the BEST movies EVER MADE!!!!!

You are seconded!

Chrisisall!

I know I'm supposed to say "third", but it sounds so silly :P Anyway count me in ;) It's straight through amazing, I can't wait to see it again. I've been to other movies maybe a second time to show it to a friend, but this one keeps dragging me back, cause I simply can't get enough of it!

*~*~*

"Joss, if you kill him now I'll stuff a compression coil up your ass sideways!"
~ Kaylee, "Serenity in 2000 words or less"

Kaylee's the perfect woman!

THESOMNAMBULIST

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 12:01 PM

Unsardonic wrote:

Quote:
Here's one: speaking as a film maker (writer/producer), I THINK 'SERENITY' IS ONE OF THE BEST MOVIES EVER MADE.

And, By GAWD, I can go on for MONTHS about the bajillion reasons why. I agree with all the lists on this thread - many are movies that I consider "perfect - very many...

Now, who'll 'second' me on this commotion?

As to the lists: I notice none of you mentioned Piero Pasolini and I ...welll... if ya wanna intense cinema experience, just check out 'Salo' some time... this movie is soo Friggin' Intense, most people simply can't make it through a half hour, well... any amount of it. It stunned me so much that I was able to watch the entire thing, well... it was like, kinda, a trainwreck... or Meatloaf or Wendy O. & the Plasmatics in concert: you can't avert your eyes; you must look... because it's truly unbelievable. So after it finished, I watched it all over again, just 'cause I couldn't believe I'd seen it all the way through once.

Hey Unsardonic how you doing? I don't think we've conversed before. I have a few dozen things I'd like to talk to you about. All friendly no worries.

I've seen Salo and I wanted to discuss it with you because I didn't think it such a tour de force.

You see, we were encouraged to see it in our own time while I was at college, all those years ago and personally I found it redundant.

I say this not coz I was shocked, I'm not the shockable kinda fellow, no just that for me 'shocking' cinema is a one trick pony. I also find that it is so easy to render a viewer shocked, that it falls into the catagory of 'easy' cinema and really ultimately little is achieved.

Now I don't mean to sound so flippant, clearly it was a well thought out piece of work, but aside from the elements of shock what else have you? Also wouldn't it have been a greater achievement, from Passolini's point of view if he had utilised the camera in a more subtle way to evocke the horror within the narrative? What he has done is really perverse the medium, so much so that, he creates to much attention to 'set-up' and scenes. Making the entire work a series of 'sketches' almost of violence... In other words you can see it coming, to the point of well:

"We're going to witness a shocking act"

Ooops

"Here is the shocking act!"

and

"That was the shocking act, how shocking eh?"

I generally regard films that purposefully attempt to shock as lazy cinema. Cronenberg does this for the main, to my mind, some of Godards stuff too, (not a fan of his stuff really) and the intellectualizing of its' [the film's] subject matter does not make it an intelligent piece of work.

Secondly: I see you're a write and producer.....
hmmmm wanna collaborate on something? I'm a cartoonist.

And I second what you said about SERENITY. It is a cracking film.

Cheers
The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

LIMINALOSITY

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 6:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Here's one: speaking as a film maker (writer/producer), I THINK 'SERENITY' IS ONE OF THE BEST MOVIES EVER MADE.

Yes, me too. I think it beats a few things on the lists above as well.

Shiny Trees! Yavanna made Shiny Trees!

QUEENOFTHENORTH

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 7:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by liminalosity:
Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Here's one: speaking as a film maker (writer/producer), I THINK 'SERENITY' IS ONE OF THE BEST MOVIES EVER MADE.

Yes, me too. I think it beats a few things on the lists above as well.

Shiny Trees! Yavanna made Shiny Trees!

Yeah, I'm gonna have to . . . um, fifth? that. Whatever. It's an awesome movie. Note: I also totally liked Terminator. But that apparently makes me a person of lesser intelligence.

I give to you the Seeker of Serenity, the Valkyrie Warrior, the Gourmet Cook and the Truth Scoper.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 7:12 PM

I didn't want to start a new thread but have y'all seen this review of Serenity?

www.worldsgreatestcritic.com/serenity.html#title

---------------------------------
Please don't think they give a shit.

STORYMARK

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 7:15 PM

I have to join up with the camp that thinks SERENITY is a great movie, a new sci-fi classic.

I also consider THE TERMINATOR to be a modern sci-fi classic.

As far as all these lists go, I've not seen all the films listed by any means. But I have seen several. I liked some, didn't like others.

I also believe in a division between "films" and "movies". And I believe that just because a film/movie is in a foreign language, it is not automatically of higher quality. As the saying goes, 90% of everything is crap. Including foreign films. Artsy pretentiouse crap is still crap.

ROLAND

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 7:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Howard:

The problem with the likes of THE TERMINATOR
is that giving your money for that crap just
encourages the studios.

Boy, he just keeps insulting people, doesn't he. Terminator 2 is my favorite movie ever. I hope people keep giving money to my favorite movies so they make more like them. Most people I know like to go to movies to be entertained. My favorite movies are ones that entertain me. Most intellectual movies do not entertain me. Thank God Howard is in the minority or all they would make would be intellectual movies and a lot of us wouldn't have any movies to watch anymore.

RIVER6213

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 8:13 PM

Serenity is a very good movie, but it isnt one of the greatest movies ever; I enjoyed it very much and it brought me into the Firefly 'verse, for which I am glad.

Terminator and Terminator 2 were very good movies, especially Terminator II. I can't understand why anyone would think it wasnt very good.

enuff said

IDRAWART

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 8:25 PM

hey howard, you missed a few- here are a couple of MY favorites as long as this is a thread for our own personal favorite movie lists.
And Serenity rocks and is at the top of mine...because of the characters, plain and simple.

Foul play
medicine man
dear frankie
iron giant
educating rita (chick flick)

ps. please remember that Joss had 39 mil to work with and did it in Los Angeles area and kept it with in budget by being efficient with time, knowing a good story has great strength when it comes to movies.
just my 2 cents!

I live the sky when it's just after sunset, that deep velvet blue.

INSANITYLATER

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 8:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Terminator and Terminator 2 were very good movies, especially Terminator II. I can't understand why anyone would think it wasnt very good.

enuff said

Effects wise, T2 was a milestone, as far as plot, I have serious issues with it. If they really did destroy the items that led to the delevopment of Skynet then the very next scene after the T101 sinks into the molten metal should have been Sarah Connor waiting on tables at the same moment the original Terminator movie started. The timeline should have corrected itself and the events of both movies should have just been nullified. I generally have issues with time travel movies like Back to the Future. When the Delorean hit 88 MPH it traveled in time not space so it appeared in the field where the mall was eventually to be built.. wrong. It would have popped into deep space and it would have taken 30 years for the Earth to get to where the Delorean and its frozen occupant would be waiting. To arrive in the same spot as you left but in a different time you would need to plot the movement of the Earth and the movement of the Solar System, Galaxy and Universe to have a correct exit point. But then someone told me I think too much.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Serenity NOW!!! ... Insanity later."

HOWARD

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 8:57 PM

TO ALL:

Even if you think T2 is a milestone ( a
milstone of what? Making a bad actor into
a megastar? ) I would just like to thank
everyone for building up 70 replies to this
thread. It may have started off with nasty
replies but it has developed into a healthy
discussion thread.

Most appreciated.

H.

HOWARD

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 9:00 PM

TO ALL:

Even if you think T2 is a milestone ( a
milstone of what? Making a bad actor into
a megastar? ) I would just like to thank
everyone for building up 70 replies to this
thread. It may have started off with nasty
replies but it has developed into a healthy
discussion thread.

Most appreciated.

H.

HOWARD

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 9:29 PM

No one is saying that T1/T2 were not well
made.

You seem to have a problem making a distinction
between the quality of production and the
values, mentality etc the content projects.

For me THE TERMINATOR culture is a very
reactionary reinforcement of the worst kind
of values promoted by corporate media and
corporate society.

It is part of a video-game culture which by
definition is NO culture at all.

The films of James Cameron are precisely the
kind of stalwarts that are used to block any
kind of enlightened cinema from the mainstream
and the paradox is that the more money a movie
of that type has got behind it the more the
corporate mass media gives it massive free
publicity. To studios who can well afford their
own PR. While indie and medium budget films
with more thoughtful and challenging content
and very small PR budgets receive no such
generosity from the corporate mass media.
Both the promoted and the promoters share the
same narrow and intolerant corporate capitalist
agenda within a media complex that makes sure
the populace knows next to nothing about the
truth concerning United States foreign and
corporate policy. TERMINATOR movies are a
mechanism used as WMD...WEAPONS OF MASS
DISTRACTION to keep people's minds filled with
childlike fantasies. To ensure those same minds
know next to nothing about the massive
suffering endured by humanity as a result of
one's own government and private sector crimes
abroad. As well as the well hidden suffering
at home. Such as was revealed when Hurricane
Katrina blew the lid off a brutal society
with under-caste Third World poverty at the
core of the leading First World nation. No
more denials or self-delusions were possible
when the true nature of American society was
on display before the eyes of the whole world
thanks to Katrina who in paradox aided the
cause of justice and truth. By blowing away
the lies enforced by a corporate media that
prefers to dish out free publicity to action
movies rather than do its job and report as
real journalists. In one court-case FOX NEWS
won a case when they were accused quite
accurately of censoring news at the behest of
their sponsors (relating to poisons found in
milk Americans feed their children every day)
they won the case only because in the State
of Florida it turns out there is NO law against
a television news organisation telling lies in
its news coverage. FOX won because it is legal
for them to lie according to Florida Law. In
a Kafkaesque twist the whistle-blowing
journalists were then prosecuted under Florida
Law for breach of contract. They refused to lie
in the story they were writing when FOX bosses
told them to...this was a breach of contract.

It is a case of a reactionary reverse Robin
Hood ism...stealing from the poor to promote
the rich back to the poor.

Instead of watching crap like TERMINATOR
buy a copy of THE CORPORATION the above account
and many other issues are covered in the body
of the documentary and then in even more
depth in supplementary 2nd disc. A masterpiece
DVD.

STORYMARK

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 10:40 PM

Now your statring to sound like a conspiracy nut.

Now, I won't argue that most big hollywoord movies are crap. And I agree that a lot of them serve to degrade our culture. And they often serve as a distraction from the real world.

But sometimes that's not a bad thing. It's called escapism. Most movies are meant to entertain. Some succeed, others don't.

And while the corporations undoubtedly profit from these movies, and are happy to capitalize on the distractions they provide, I think you're take on it is a little too conspiracy-oriented.

First of all, people like to see those movies. People vote with their wallets, and if they wanted every movie to be a deep, thought provoking sociological study, those films would be more successfull. Sure, they don't get the massive promotions that action movies do, but if they did, do you honestly think that THE CORPORATION would have been a blockbuster if it had been advertised more? The film business is a business. Period. What makes money, gets made.

If Hollywood were to stop making movies like THE TERMINATOR et al tomorrow, do you really think we'd see a huge boom in attendance for "enlightened cinema"? Maybe. But I think we'd see the film industry go out of business real quick.

Secondly, do you think James Cameron makes the movies he does because it serves a corporate agenda? Or because those are the stories he likes to tell? Particularly in the case of the first TERMINATOR, he fought to get the money to make that movie, because it was the movie he wanted to make. And there are always going to be talented, creative people who want to tell fun stories, that hopefully people will enjoy, and not be out to change the world.

I understand your picking out Cameron, because his films have been highly successfull, and have a big profile. But the fact is, in terms of big-budget action/adventure flicks, Cameron's movies tend to carry more social commentary than most of his peer's work. This includes both TERMINATOR movies, as well as THE ABYSS and his series DARK ANGEL (of which I am not a fan, for the sake of clarity).

Would things be better if more people were trying to change the world? Sure. Does that mean that those who just wish to entertain and be entertained should be derided. I say no.

I write sci-fi, and I make films. None of them was designed to cast a light on corporate corruption, or the evils of the world, at least not yet (I have some ideas....). None of them have been as good as Jim Cameron's, or Joss' work. I make them because I love to do it. I do it because those types of stories entertain me, and my greatest hope is that they'll bring a bit of fleeting happiness to someone else. And I sure as hell don't do it to advance any corporate agenda.

And I'm gonna keep doin' it.

BOBSTER

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 11:41 PM

As a really serious movie lover who liked "Die Hard" and both of the first two "Terminator" films but who is also an avowed ultra-non-supporter of G.W.B. (which has no relevence, realy, but I thought I'd throw that in), I do think that's often a false distinction between "entertainment" and "art."

I've always held that any sufficiently accomplished work of art is entertaining in that it involves you, either intellectually, emotionally or both. And, on occasion, works that are designed to be "just entertaining" achieve a kind of grace that turns them into something that is very much like a work of art. Movies like "Singin' in the Rain" or "Stagecoach" are both potboilers who's makers would have laughed had you mentioned the word "art" to them, but they are also acknowlged master.

It seems to me that Joss is a kind of throwback to filmmakers of that era -- but one who's actually read some film theory (he named a character on "Buffy" after the renowned cineaste Robin Wood, for chrissakes!), so it's a bit complicated.

"Serenity" is designed mainly to entertain, but to also have a certain number of levels to it for those of us who care to look. I think it's a very good movie, probably better than "Terminator 2" at least, and possibly "Die Hard" (which is a very clever little movie when you examine it closely, btw).

Is it a "great" movie in the same way the "Citizen Kane" or "Weekend" or "The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp" or "Rear Window" or "The Gold Rush" is "great"? (btw, I found "The Trial" a crashing bore, and I LOVE Kafka!). Maybe not. Maybe so. Maybe in 20 years people will think so, more likely not quite.

In any case, I think trying to impress people with a long list of movies that you feel superior for liking is the cheapest trick out there.

BOBSTER

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 11:45 PM

As a really serious movie lover who liked "Die Hard" and both of the first two "Terminator" films but who is also an avowed ultra-non-supporter of G.W.B. (which has no relevence, realy, but I thought I'd throw that in), I do think that's often a false distinction between "entertainment" and "art."

I've always held that any sufficiently accomplished work of art is entertaining in that it involves you, either intellectually, emotionally or both. And, on occasion, works that are designed to be "just entertaining" achieve a kind of grace that turns them into something that is very much like a work of art. Movies like "Singin' in the Rain" or "Stagecoach" are both potboilers who's makers would have laughed had you mentioned the word "art" to them, but they are also acknowlged masterpieces.

It seems to me that Joss is a kind of throwback to filmmakers of that era -- but one who's actually read some film theory (he named a character on "Buffy" after the renowned cineaste Robin Wood, for chrissakes!), so it's a bit complicated.

"Serenity" is designed mainly to entertain, but to also have a certain number of levels to it for those of us who care to look. I think it's a very good movie, probably better than "Terminator 2" at least, and possibly "Die Hard" (which is a very clever little movie when you examine it closely, btw).

Is it a "great" movie in the same way the "Citizen Kane" or "Weekend" or "The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp" or "Rear Window" or "The Gold Rush" is "great"? (btw, I found "The Trial" a crashing bore, and I LOVE Kafka!). Maybe not. Maybe so. Maybe in 20 years people will think so, more likely not quite.

Which brings me to another distinction, "favorite" versus "greatest" -- it's a subjective thing, but I think we all know the difference. "Serenity" is possibly not the "greatest" film made this year...but (short of something really mindblowing to me coming out this year) it's quite probably my favorite of this year because I have a deep emotional attachment to the characters and story that goes beyond the movie itself. Can't be helped.

In any case, I think trying to impress people with a long list of movies that you feel superior for liking is the cheapest trick out there.

QUEENOFTHENORTH

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 11:57 PM

I think I've actually gone blind from reading Howard's latest rant. *waves hand in front of eyes* Well, maybe not. But, jeez man, GET A LIFE! Being an angry snob does not make you better than others, nor will it convince anybody else that you are. Also, I like Terminator and I'm not American, so I don't think your paranoid corporate America argument even applies. So, take a deep breath, get off your pedestal and try not to suck, okay?

I give to you the Seeker of Serenity, the Valkyrie Warrior, the Gourmet Cook and the Truth Scoper.

JAYTEE

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 12:04 AM

After reading Howard's list the only movie I want to see now besides Serenity for the 5th time is "Howard's End"

Jaytee

RIVER6213

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 12:06 AM

They just want to argue. Nothing they say can ever make me not like the Terminator series, so they can waste bandspace all they want

I threw up on your bed...

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 12:10 AM

Does Serenity deserve to be on that list? Sure it does. We have of course all seen a good number of those films. Some of them were truly excellent. But most aren't in Serenity's Genre.

Also, the fanbase was pushing to have Serenity up around #125, not #4, so it's competition would be return of the jedi, not run lola run.

Objectively, Serenity is great cinema, even outside of the context of firefly.

You think we think so because we're fans?

Don't be absurd.

We are fans because we think so.

If Jeunet made a film about space cowboys that was witty and fun, we'd probably nominate it as well. Actually, I recall Joss calling him a two bit hack at some point. I don't really agree, I like Jeunet, but I also understand Joss' point. The long thought provoking ideas of Joss are subtley more profound, which Jean Pierre failed to grasp, which was a point of contention when they worked on a film together.

Isn't it curious though, that many of the people who made those films that you put on that list consider Joss to be a cinematic genius. In fact some of them might actually be responsible for his high ratings on IMDb :)

Also, it's ironic how self appointed film critics always uphold Magnolia as a beacon of originality.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 12:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
I have to join up with the camp that thinks SERENITY is a great movie, a new sci-fi classic.

I also consider THE TERMINATOR to be a modern sci-fi classic.

As the saying goes, 90% of everything is crap. Including foreign films. Artsy pretentiouse crap is still crap.

THANK YOU!!!!
*Applauds the voice of reason*
True Browncoats understand.

Chrisisall, right there with ya

GIXXER

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 12:21 AM

This really is a remarkably civilised site.

You'd think that, with it being about science fiction and populated with rabid geeky fanboys and girls (myself included) you'd get a much higher pillock count. Not so.

The message to Howard is, variously:

Go home and watch your films;

Leave me and the rest of the planet to watch ours;

Trust me, there are a lot of people* out there who would enjoy Freaky Friday much more than staring glumly at a Tarkovsky film. (Mind you, I can't fault his little glass ornaments and all the good stuff he did for Liberace.)

Please do not presume you have a monopoly on good taste. (Or, if you must, don't diss a classic like Terminator, of all the films in all the bars in all the world. You're not doing yourself any favours.)

G

*OK, maybe it's just me...

"The man who comes to take care of my piranhas told me that if I left West Ham he would kill all my fish."

Paolo Di Canio

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 12:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by InsanityLater:
When the Delorean hit 88 MPH it traveled in time not space so it appeared in the field where the mall was eventually to be built.. wrong. It would have popped into deep space and it would have taken 30 years for the Earth to get to where the Delorean and its frozen occupant would be waiting. To arrive in the same spot as you left but in a different time you would need to plot the movement of the Earth and the movement of the Solar System, Galaxy and Universe to have a correct exit point.

The Doc took that all into account, that part was child's play for him! Getting the uranium, now THAT was hard.

And I've already gone through the (valid) points you made about Terminator 1 & 2 on another, albeit old, thread in Other Science Fiction Series, it's sort of like 'fuzzy' timelines. Time streams tend to try to remain constant, and destroying the arm and chip only forced Skynet to develope itself in another way, preserving most of the events, just altering moments. The exact John we know would not be born, but 'a' John would take his place! And none of us would ever know the difference.
(Didja buy it? I think it does make a perverted kind of sense...)
See, the John Conner we saw in T2 was not actually the 'same' john we saw in the original. But close enough to complete the events that lead into the war with the machines...:)

Chrisisall, fanboy without end

FLAMERESISTENT

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 1:21 AM

Hey, I liked Magnolia well enough!

But really, this thread, Trollism 101, or did the guy just want a little cinema talk but was too inept to broach the subject in a more elegant fashion?

The cynical trollish pushing of the buttons sure to rile up folks, or a lonely soul in need of cinematic fellowship?

A few movies I thought were enjoyable:

2001
A Lion in Winter
Funny Bones
Terminator I
A Knight's Tale (best overall goofy fun movie with a nod to Chaucer)
Much Ado About Nothing
Elizabeth

I enjoyed Serenity a great deal, enjoyed the story and the performances, and the Operative's Shakespearian-flavored tragedy shadings.

But I still think Jubal Early was my favorite villain.

Does that seem right to you?

LIMINALOSITY

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 1:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bobster:
And, on occasion, works that are designed to be "just entertaining" achieve a kind of grace that turns them into something that is very much like a work of art.

Is it a "great" movie in the same way the "Citizen Kane" or "Weekend" or "The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp" or "Rear Window" or "The Gold Rush" is "great"? Maybe not. Maybe so. Maybe in 20 years people will think so, more likely not quite.

Hey! Bingo!
I find Serenity a great movie in exactitively the same breath as "Rear Window". Huge touchdown points from me for coming up with that title, though you may not share the sentiment.

Howard! Dude!
"stealing from the poor to promote the rich back to the poor" was in the very news I heard today that WallMart is lobbying to raise the minimum wage, which will have the affect of making it harder for local businesses to make a go of it, but will hardly touch the WM(D). If you didn't make so loud with the finger pointing and namecalling, you might better convey your actual point.

Shiny Trees! Yavanna made Shiny Trees!

ZIPPLY

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 2:43 AM

Howard's original post was not about which movies to see, but rather which movies to own ("...that well deserve your purchase on DVD"). I have two very different lists for those two different purposes.

So I confess, my list of Must-Owns includes stuff like Monty Python and the Holy Grail, Young Frankenstein, Animal House, and Planet of the Apes.

Sometimes aerosol cheese'll satisfy you in ways that no wholesome and nutritious meal ever could.

KNIBBLET

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 2:54 AM

So who is this Howard guy and why am I seeing nothing but negativity from him?

Perhaps when something new and semi-shiny comes out (think pet rock only with a sound track) he'll move along to another obsession.

For me, I'm sticking with the same obsession. Joss Whedon is my Master now.

http://fireflytalk.libsyn.com/
mmmmm.... delicious firefly talk

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/

UNSARDONIC

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 3:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
...I say this not coz I was shocked, I'm not the shockable kinda fellow, no just that for me 'shocking' cinema is a one trick pony. I also find that it is so easy to render a viewer shocked, that it falls into the catagory of 'easy' cinema and really ultimately little is achieved.

Hi there, ya sleepwalker

Well, it took me a bit to get back to you due to the work schedule. Lessee... Sir Henry (Rawlinson) would have said, "I've just spent the last 10 hours buried up the backsides of the filth hounds of Hades!" ...so, trying to get past my nitrogen narcosis & readjust to regular atmospheric pressure...

s'anyway... you make a bunch of excellent points about 'Salo.' And I agree with many of them and, also, I agree with you in that I'm also not that particularly 'shockable.' I think had I taken some Evangelical Christian aquaintance of mine, well...THEY might well have been shocked. However, I have to tell you, I can't remember what my shockability was back around, I'm thinking, 1972, when I first saw it. If you can imagine the zeitgeist back then, even I might have been quite appalled in '72... I don't think I was but... I WAS shocked.

Now, I don't believe Pasolini shot it specifically for the point of "shocking" people. I believe he was making a political satire that was aimed at various political figures/events in Italian politics around the late 1960's or so... trying to imply that, if you were a member of such-&-such political party (Pasolini was a Communist, himself) then you were just beginning to dip your toes into the pond wherein, after a couple of good dips, you'd be incapable of avoiding ...raping & killing your own children, for example... I believe he was trying to make allegorical finger-pointing statements at whoever he despised. ....and trying to translate those kinds of ideas (whatever he was trying to say) into our CURrent sensibilities is about as seamless as trying to get the humor in a Python gag from 1969 that is specific to local-town-council-politics in some village in England back THEN... doesn't translate so well to the general populace.

So I don't really think Pasolini shot it to be secifically 'shocking' as you've interpreted; I believe he was extremely angry about political points of view that he disagreed with & was saying, "See! See how you bastards are?! THIS... is how you are!" He was being accusatory. ...ummm... my opinion... could be wrong.

Now to conclude my "Salo-ivations", a few years ago, I had a lovely conversation with a fellow who's a film composer & it was about art we both respected &, I dunno how we both arrived at this but, the conversation was about Prokofiev & Pasolini. He had just about the same take on "Salo" that I did but, he had a very interesting additional point. He pointed out that what it succeeds in doing is to "resensitize" the viewer to screen violence. His point was (& this was around 8 years ago), that all us movie-lovers are now so innured to screen violence that it falls off us like water off a duck's back. And he thought that this was a sad state of affairs... take your own perspective, for example: you can't even be affected by the awful horror depicted within "Salo" as, I'm guessing, you've already seen a whole lotta screen violence (not a criticism, BTW).

He & I had both been so strongly affected by it that, well... it just plain made us think hard about people who might behave this way or, well... it can't be denied that, throughout history, various human beings (even whole nations) have, in fact, behaved that way... and worse, even MUCH worse so... whether or not it worked on you, it certainly worked on me: I believe there is some cultural value in "resentizing" the average filmgoer to the (often) horrible events they see depicted on screen FOR THEIR AMUSEMENT. I mean, for what it's worth...

QUOTE Secondly: I see you're a write and producer.....
hmmmm wanna collaborate on something? I'm a cartoonist.

And I second what you said about SERENITY. It is a

PIZMOBEACH

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 3:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Howard:
... I would just like to thank
everyone for building up 70 replies to this
thread...
Most appreciated.

H.

Congratulations, you just got a firsthand example of how much of the American TV hit-factory works. A bit... er... ironic.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.net

UNSARDONIC

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 3:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

I also believe in a division between "films" and "movies". And I believe that just because a film/movie is in a foreign language, it is not automatically of higher quality. As the saying goes, 90% of everything is crap. Including foreign films. Artsy pretentiouse crap is still crap.

Ah-HAH!! There's a particularly excellent description of this 'divide' that most non-filmmaking folks never think of, I suspect. It's from Dov S-S Simens, a unique, some might say, ummm... "renegade"... independent film-production instructor, in his indispensable book "From Real to Deal." He says, every movie was a "film" once - that's how they all start, as: "Films. They don't become "movies" until they sell that first ticket to a member of the movie-going public. Once that "Film" is in a theater and has begun to sell tickets, it becomes - irrevocably and for all time - a "movie."

HOHOHO

...works for me...

FERREX

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 7:33 AM

First, and I can't believe it hasn't been said before this, Howard, your mouth is talking. You might want to look to that.

Second, I consider Serenity to be one of the best movies ever made. Why? Well, the characters. The ship. The 'verse and all the shiny gos se in it. The ruttin' reavers. No ruttin' aliens. Believability. All the things that the 'great' sci-fi movies lacked. You can believe in Serenity. You don't need 400 poorly written books to make the 'verse come alive, ala Star Wars and Star Trek. The 'verse just is and that makes it all shiny.

Ballyhoo the BDM all you want. I encourage it. You can go hang out with Niska. You remember how smart he was right? It's where you belong. A Browncoat doesn't lay down arms. Those gorram feds at FOX and the purple bellies at Universal said they were gonna stroll through Serenity Valley and we made them choke on those words.

Now, for all you Bendises out there, 'Nice covering fire.'

Jayne, your mouth is talking. You might want to look to that.

3HEADEDMONKEY

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 8:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by InsanityLater:
Hey.. why not do the whole thing in Mandarin
I wanna see a version all in Greedo's language!!!

Mal: " Oooh la schulpa!"
Operative: "Yah, kappa tool tuk!"

Them's fightin' words!

Chrisisall, interpreter

actually, Greedo says "oola goota, solo?" which translates to "going somewhere, solo?"
and the launguage is rodian.

HOWARD

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 9:49 AM

To those who worship at the alter of
THE TERMINATOR and never had any qualms
giving your movie to a studio for an
Arnie slaighter flick:

see:

http://www.slate.com/id/2086742/

The only flaw in this article is at the end
when the author presumes that the election
in California would be run on lines that
could be recognised as a legitimate electorial
process representative of the broad populace.
No such event took place.

Arnold Schwarzenegger became Gov of California
the same way Bush became President. Via the
total corruption of electorial procedure and
massive corporate corruption which included
by the way his friends at ENRON faking an
energy shortage to cause chaos under the
previous administration.

In addition to Arnold Schwarzenegger's history
of befriending and campaigning for a well
known Nazi one should not forgwet Arnold
Schwarzenegger's support for the
Reagan/Bush regime. At a time when the Reagan
gang had US armed,trained and financed Neo-
Nazi death squads rampaging through Central
America who accounted for the hideous murder
incorporating rape and mutilation of an
estimated 300,000 men, women and children.
The same administration who armed and aided
the racist National Socialist tyranny of
White Minority rule in South Africa.

HOWARD

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 10:03 AM

I do found it amusing that when I write
in depth about anything citing specific
cases that can be researched and so forth
certain persons condascend by calling it
"a rant".

I cannot help but imagine that if I was
to write a glowing praise of Arnold
Schwarzenegger no such word would be applied
by such reactionary minded surfs.

STORYMARK

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 4:12 PM

Your all over the place with this topic, Howard.

Just because some of us liked THE TERMINATOR doesn't mean we're Schwarzeneggar/Bush supporters. Some undoubtedly are, but don't lump us all together.

For one, I pratically loath Bush. I do not live in California, so the gubenatorial race didn't effect me, but I assure you if I did live in CA, I would not have voted for ol' Arnie. Hell, I'm not particularly a fan of his, it's just that someone brought up a movie that he happened to be in, which most people here consider to be a very good movie.

And people are calling your posts rants because you...RANT. Having sources doesn't change the fact that it's a rant. You started this thread with an aggressive, superior attitude, and have continued that position in each subsequent post.

And having sources does not automatically legitimize your argument. In today's internet age, anyone can find backing for ANY position if they look hard enough.

Besides, some of us here don't really disagree with you.
Lots of crap films out there: Agreed.
People should watch more high-minded films: Agreed.
Corporate America Bad, Grrrr: Agreed.
Everone who doesn't watch "enlightened cinema like Howard" is a mouth-breathing simpleton: Well, that's where you loose most of us.

And come on, it's not like all the films on your list are enlightened. I believe you listed "RUN LOLA RUN" (Though I prefer the original title: LOLA RENDT - See, I can be pretentiouse too).

Now, I love that movie, and have seen it a lot. But it's a textbook case of style over substance. It was a movie with 30 minutes of story, with a gimmick that had already been done in a Bill Murray movie, and an episode of Star Trek.

I think it's pretty easy to make the case that the movie about the cyborg from the future had more social commentary and subtext than the movie about a girl running across town to bail her boyfriend out of a botched drug deal.

So, in other words...get over yourself.

HOWARD

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 5:01 PM

STORYMARK:

EXCUSE ME!!!!!!!

For not conforming to your narrow
thread dictatorship!

EXCUSE ME!!!!!!!

For expanding topics and responding
to remarks made by others.

EXCUSE ME!!!!!!!

For having the inclination to share
culture and knowledge.

EXCUSE ME!!!

For rocking the comfortable delusion
of your childish playpen world view.

Now this is a rant, a justified one,
but one I admit. One you provoked!

I firmly reject the notion that my
paragraphs on FOX / Terminator etc
were a rant. They were perfectly calm
and accurate sentences pertaining to
information and facts draw from the
public domain to provoke a meaningful
discourse.

You and your chums of course could never be
accused of ranting. That is only for others
right?

Your definition of "ranting" = someone who
disagrees with you.

Last but not least:

Since when did a "rant" become a criminal
offense?

GEEKMAFIA

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 5:23 PM

Howard

people here want you to "share
culture and knowledge" but doing it in such a confrontational and pretentious manner will just get people angry... as it has

011101000110100001100101001000000111001101101001
011001110110111001100001011011000000110100001010

Liu koushui de biaozi he houzi de ben erzi.

LADYSHELLEY

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 5:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Howard:

The films of James Cameron are precisely the
kind of stalwarts that are used to block any
kind of enlightened cinema from the mainstream
and the paradox is that the more money a movie
of that type has got behind it the more the
corporate mass media gives it massive free
publicity. To studios who can well afford their
own PR. While indie and medium budget films
with more thoughtful and challenging content
and very small PR budgets receive no such
generosity from the corporate mass media.

So is your issue more with the large studio system or the quality of the films? Steven Spielburg made a lot of fun movies (Indiana Jones) and also great film (Schinlder's List).

While Cameron is responsible for some great action movies, he's also responsible for inventing new deep-sea cameras to investigate wrecks like Titanic.

I can agree that the studio's push out a lot of garbage; but the public doesn't swallow it whole if the box office for this year is any indication. Another thing to note is unless you live in New York or Los Angeles, the chances of seeing smaller films is nil; the small theaters that would show such fare are an endangerd species even in good sized cities like Denver, and the large cineplexes can't make enough money to stay open with them.

When I go to the movies, I want to be entertained, I want to forget for two hours the real world and all of the problems it contains. I don't need to see a cancer patient die, I've been there, I don't need to see the ravages of war, I've seen them. I want the happy ending, real life doesn't have one.

Lady Shelley
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.redhawke.org

STORYMARK

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 5:37 PM

It's okay, Howard.

You are excused.

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